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Next On Scene: The Human Behind The Brand
Reinventing the Holidays: Divorce and New Beginnings
00:23:43
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- [00:01]
Jackie Zook
Welcome back to becoming Next on Scene, everybody. It is your host, Jackie Zook. It is another awesome day for another awesome episode of how to become Next on Scene. Before I bring on my amazing guest, I always like to start with some words of wisdom to get you started, depending on what time of day you're listening. So my words of advice, I think, is to take a risk this week. I feel like I'm about to do something that's completely uncomfortable in my business. And I feel like we only reap rewards when we really put ourselves out there and take a chance on ourselves. And so if I can inspire you this week to take a risk and something that feels aligned to do, so go for it. Even if it might scare the crap out of you. I think you'll be so happy that you did and I did it last month. I'm trying to take a risk once a month. Not that I'm recommending this right room, but I'm trying to do it once a month. And I think if you can take a chance on yourself more often and create a goal, I think like you're going to look at life so differently and feel more fulfilled. And granted it doesn't always work out as you plan, but there's always a lesson that will come from it. So that being said, if that's the takeaway that you get and it's a lesson, it will always take you to your next place. So now I'm really excited to share my amazing guest with you. We have Jolie Vacci. She is the founding attorney at Foundation's Family Law and Mediation center and she covers Central Massachusetts and Rhode island and she helps resolve family law as painlessly and peacefully as possible. So if you are looking for somebody who is an amazing soul, brings an amazing team and will do this for you efficiently and as peacefully as possible. Jolie and her team are the people for you. So I'm so excited for you to learn all about Jolie, the advice she has to share around divorces, especially around families during the holidays. This is definitely a podcast here to listen to. Can't wait for your feedback.
- [02:12]
Next on Scene
The ups, the downs and all the in between. What it takes to become Next on Scene. Are you next? Follow us at Next on Scene.
- [02:32]
Jackie Zook
So excited to be back here with the amazing Jolie Vacke. She is a founding attorney at Foundations Family Law. Joey, welcome to the podcast.
- [02:40]
Jolie Vacci
Thank you, Jackie. I'm thrilled to be here with you and I'm excited for our chat.
- [02:43]
Jackie Zook
So excited to chat with you. And you are a woman of knowledge and go you for starting your own law firm as a woman owned business. You know that I love that about you because I think you're a star. So tell us a little bit about like how you fell into family law. Like, how did that all come about?
- [02:58]
Jolie Vacci
So I'm one of those weird people that knew they wanted to be an attorney since I was a little girl. And it's weird because I didn't know any attorneys. No one in my family was a lawyer. I only knew lawyers that I saw on tv. And I loved Law and Order. And there was this old show called like Ally McBeal that I used to watch growing up. Yeah, such a good show. I was just captivated by that profession and I knew it was what I always wanted to do. So I went straight from undergrad to law school. And when I was there, they make you take a bunch of different electives and things like that. And I fell in love with family law. And so I took as many courses I could in that area. I became a certified mediator, took took domestic violence law, did all my internships in that area. And it was just an area of law that really resonated with me because in my life, my family is the most important thing to me. And a lot of people can relate to that. And when something shakes your foundation of your family to its core, like a divorce or a custody issue, it touches so many different aspects of your life. And I really saw the law as a helping profession. And that's the way I wanted to help in that way, is through family loss. So that's how I fell into love it.
- [04:15]
Jackie Zook
And you also have an awesome podcast. You tell us a little bit about your podcast.
- [04:18]
Jolie Vacci
Thank you. Yeah, it's super fun. It's called Divorce Detox and I'm a co host on the podcast with my friend and she's a divorce coach and she's a toxic relationship recovery expert. Her name is Lisa Hap. So she brings like the coaching element and I bring the legal element and we interview guests and it's a lot of fun. And we're very like raw and vulnerable. We don't hold back on that. So it's my passion project and I love it so much.
- [04:43]
Jackie Zook
I think people need to hear the vulnerability though, on that, right?
- [04:47]
Jolie Vacci
Exactly. Yeah. It's not PC. We swear we talk about the realities of family court, and there's a lot of realities that suck about them. And so we bring them to light and talk about, like, how can we do the best that we can within this inherently flawed system?
- [05:03]
Jackie Zook
So, so thank you for like sharing that because I feel like people like need to hear things like that. And we just even talked before the call about opening up and being vulnerable. Like it's so important because people don't know how they can connect with you and based on emotion is so powerful. So be that being said, I would love to talk more about like how with divorce during the holidays, like being around narcissists, new family members, like, what are things that you see that come up for families around the holiday season?
- [05:31]
Jolie Vacci
A lot of clients come to me and they'll have a consult and they're thinking about divorce. And around the holidays they always tell me, well, we should wait until, you know, we get through Thanksgiving and Christmas and the new year. And I hear that often. But I do discourage it because after you get past the new year, there's always going to be that next thing that you want to get fast. Whether it's, you know, something in your kid's school or a birthday or a trip, there's always an excuse to put off divorce and also delaying divorce to the new year. The most divorces in the entire year are filed between January and March because people want to do it as like their new year resolution, like New Year, new me. I'm going to ditch this horrible relationship I'm in. And so it actually is really crowded in the family court and it can be hard to get an attorney around that time. So filing pre the holidays, I think is a really smart idea. And everything with the family court takes a very long time. So even if you file in like November or December, you're not going to get any traction until the beginning of the new year anyway. So you're just going to get a jump on that and put you in a better position from the beginning.
- [06:41]
Jackie Zook
So what do you think? Like, do you think people stay together? I mean, obviously there's a psychological piece too, right? They don't want to be alone. Is that a big piece of it? Like they'd rather suck up an unhappy marriage to being honest, there's so many.
- [06:53]
Jolie Vacci
Elements to go into why people stay in unhappy and unhappy and unhealthy relationships. A lot of it though, I think is shame, stigma. Like divorce is seen as a failure still in our society instead of a big, brave, bold decision that's going to propel you into your next amazing chapter. Also, family ties that are caught up in it. You have, you know, relationships with your in laws and friends and everything gets shaken up. And then of course, the thing that I hear the most is staying for the kids. And most clients, by the time they get to my office, it hasn't been like a big blow up or an infidelity that is causing the person to want to file for divorce. It's been like a slow build over a long period of time and they just can't take it anymore. And so those resentments just build and people come to a place where they're like, you know what? I think we would be better off apart in co parenting our children from separate residences than modeling this kind of unhealthy behavior for our kids. So that is usually how they end up in my office.
- [07:58]
Jackie Zook
Oh, that makes sense. And then you also have a specialty too with dv, right?
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Jolie Vacci
Domestic violence. Yeah, absolutely. We represent a lot of survivors of domestic violence and coercive control. So that's more of like psychological and emotional abuse without the physical violence. Massachusetts just recently enacted a law that now domestic violence and abuse includes coercive control. So this is a really big development in our state because before women who were being abused but not physically weren't able to get restraining orders and things like that. But you know, they were being financially abused or sexually abused. Like there's a bunch of categories that didn't fit with that. So now the umbrella of abuse is much bigger and opens the doors for mostly women, more women to get the help they need. And that enables them to file a divorce because then they're, they're safe. They have to have that safety plan in place because the most dangerous time for survivors of domestic violence is when they leave in that post separation period. So they need to be able to have that safety net to be able to get out. So that's been something really exciting that hopefully is going to be able to make divorce easier for women because that's another thing that they stay in these marriages because of the cycle of abuse and they don't have money, they don't have family resources because they've been isolated. Isolated. There's so much that goes into it.
- [09:22]
Jackie Zook
I feel like you've seen it all at this point.
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Jolie Vacci
I think I've seen it all and then I get another case and it just blows me away. This is something about this job is that it is never boring. It is always interesting knowing like the intimate details of different family dynamics. It just makes you see life such, in such a different way because so much of what we see, you know, is that filtered like reality on social media that is not real life. And then you he. I hear these people stories and it's just Mind blowing. It really, really is.
- [09:55]
Jackie Zook
There's always something new. I love it. It's probably exciting, even though it's not always fun, but it does.
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Jolie Vacci
Yeah, it keeps it fresh and interesting, that's for sure.
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Jackie Zook
So walk me through, because I know you push mediation really, before you go to court. Right. So walk through. Like, can you give us an example.
- [10:09]
Jolie Vacci
Of a process with like a. Yeah, I love mediation. It's kind of what I refer to as like the gold star of divorce. In mediation, you're hiring a neutral third party to help you and your spouse talk through how you're going to divide your marriage. It's like you're dissolving a business, essentially. It's like, who's going to get what? Where are we going to live, what are we going to do with all our assets, who's going to pay the debts? And then also dealing with everything with your children. And the great thing with mediation is that you are controlling the terms of your divorce. You are. You're going to have to make compromises, that's for sure. Nobody ever gets 100% of what they want. But instead of going to court and duking it out and having a judge, a stranger, impose, you know, these orders on you about the most important thing of your. In your life, you have no control over that. But with mediation, you do. So even if you're agreeing to something that isn't your best case scenario, you're choosing it. And it's an empowering thing. It costs much less to mediate. You only have one court appearance and it just usually gets done faster. And the most important thing with mediation is, especially if you, if you have children, you're going to be co parenting with this person for the rest of your life. It doesn't matter when your child turns 18, they're going to graduate and get married. You could have grandbabies one day. This person is not going away. They're always going to be there somewhere in the background. And mediation helps to preserve that relationship as best as you can, rather than airing all your dirty laundry in family court. And that's another thing about litigating is when you file in family court. A lot of people don't know this, but in Massachusetts, all of your records are public, are public. They can be searched on the Internet by literally anybody. So you keep all of that private when you're mediating, keep that all between you and you can still get divorced more cheaply and cost effectively and faster. So I love mediation, but it is not for everybody. Obviously, like both parties have to want to be involved in the mediation process. If one person is just set on like ruining the other person's life, mediation isn't going to work. The both parties really need to make a decision to not make emotionally based decisions, make rational, fair decisions to be able to make this work. And if not, that's what the court is there for.
- [12:31]
Jackie Zook
I'm curious about it. Like, not that you would have an exact statistic for me at this moment, but how many people would you say mediate versus court, percentage wise?
- [12:39]
Jolie Vacci
I say at this point, if I had to guess, like only 20% mediate a lot originally start by filing in court. But here's the other fun statistic. About 90% of those cases end up settling before trial. So at some point an agreement is reached. It's just how much time and conflict and attorney's fees are you going to pay instead of just front loading all of that to be the beginning, working with a mediator and hashing it out and coming to an agreement other than delaying that? So, yeah, not many people start with it, but most people end up with a settlement anyways.
- [13:14]
Jackie Zook
Crazy. And then starting with you, like, how long is the process? Is it years? Is it months? Is it like. It's varies, but like in an ideal scenario.
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Jolie Vacci
Yeah. So in mediation, those can be done really quickly. I mean, I can settle divorces in one or two sessions. If the parties come, like, we have them do all their financial statements and everything so they come prepared. We can really get down to the nitty gritty when they meet with me. So finalizing the divorce can only take a couple of months. So that is pretty fast. Whereas if you file in court in Massachusetts, you're not going to get a pretrial date, which is your first court appearance if you don't file a motion hearing for another six months. And then, I mean, divorces, I would say in Massachusetts, they average about 12 to 18 months, but they can go on for years. There are cases from COVID that are still pending. It. It could go on for four or five years. That is not where you want to end up, I'm telling you.
- [14:12]
Jackie Zook
Yeah, so what would you say when some, when a client comes in right from start to finish with you, like on like, how long would you say? Like, obviously mediation is shorter, but on average, how long is it?
- [14:21]
Jolie Vacci
I would say at least a year is usually the typical. Yeah, it's a long game for sure. When you file in court the traditional way, there's all of these financial documents that you have to exchange that are required by the court. You know, and it depends on if we're working with two attorneys, you know, one for each party or if the other party is unrepresented. Sometimes that can slow things down because they don't really know what they're supposed to do. And I, as you know, the other party's attorney can't tell them what to do. So that can complicate things a little bit. But I mean, on the other hand, I have had cases where one person hires me as the attorney, the other person is unrepresented and we are able to settle it. So it really is a case by case basis. But I would say a year is a good starting point if you are going to file in court.
- [15:08]
Jackie Zook
No, that makes sense. And I also want to commend you because you haven't been on your own for that long and you have a kick ass team. So like, tell us a little bit about like your team and like all. All the things.
- [15:19]
Jolie Vacci
Yeah, so I started my firm in May of 2023. So I think we're at about 18 months right now. And when I went out on my own, it was me and my paralegal. We've been a team for many years together. And she was so amazing to take this jump and this leap of faith with me and we've been able to expand. I now have two other attorneys who work with me. We have a director of business operations who's my husband, and we also have an office liaison and she does all of our intakes and billing and things like that. So we're up to a team of six now, which I am thrilled about. It's been really fast and I mean a steep learning curve. But we are so excited for all the momentum and we've been. The best part is finding the clients, finding us who, you know, have similar values as us, and just representing those people in the way that we want to practice family law. I previously worked at a very like aggressive and litigation heavy law firm and those kind of tactics work for a certain, you know, group of people. But I just think for the majority of families who are just trying to get through this period as unscathed as possible with, you know, as much of their retirement and college savings as possible for their kids, there is another way. And like I said, it's not for everybody, but at least you can try to start from that place of let's focus on the solutions rather than just like throwing mud at each other. It just works out better for everybody in the end.
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Jackie Zook
I love it. So cool. So if. If we are speaking to the people who are your ideal clients, like, who are the people that are for found family law?
- [16:59]
Jolie Vacci
Yeah. So usually, I mean, our typical client are somewhere in their midlife. They usually have a couple of kids. They could be in elementary school or older. They have a marital home. They're usually educated. And sometimes we do represent a lot of women who have left the workforce to stay at home to raise kids. But sometimes we do represent, you know, moms and dads who are employed, and they really want to focus on getting through the divorce, like, maintaining their family system as much as possible, even though they're going to be. It's going to look different. They're going to be in different homes. But how can we make this so that the family can still function later, like I said, as unscathed as possible? That's why our philosophy is we resolve family law conflicts as painlessly and peacefully as possible. We don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Like, this family unit is still going to exist after the divorce. How do we do it fairly reasonably and keep everyone, especially the children, as unscathed as possible? Divorce is a huge time of transition, obviously, for everyone involved. But the children at the center of these cases, they're completely helpless, like they are at. They are the vulnerable ones here. They have so much at stake in this and yet no control. You know, so I'm always reminding my. My clients when we're, you know, negotiating the really hard part, it's like, let's bring it back to the kids. Like, what do you think will be best for them? And so those are the types of clients that we're looking for. We're not looking for the types of clients that want to just, like, run their ex into the ground. And you may have really, really valid reasons to do that. You know, like, you may have been burned really badly. But that kind of tactic is not going to help the family out after the divorce is over and all the dust has settled. So we want people who want to focus on resolving their case as fairly as possible, and yet, like I said, get it out as unscathed as possible.
- [18:59]
Jackie Zook
Well, Foundation's family laws got it down. I want to talk about fun facts about you because I love them so much, and we were just talking about them made me laugh. Okay, so fun facts about Jolie. So she's a homesteader, has chickens, ducks, and goats. And you make soaps, right?
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Jolie Vacci
I make goat milk soap. Yeah.
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Jackie Zook
That's so cool. So tell us a little bit about this, please.
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Jolie Vacci
Yeah. So during COVID you know, we all picked up some hobbies, and I learned how to make cold processed soap. And it's a very.
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Jackie Zook
It's.
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Jolie Vacci
It's you. You can't just, like, throw things together. It's just. It's you. You're using lye, so it's like, you have to have precise measurements. You have to take safety precautions. And I just fell in love with it. And you can add all different colors and scents and, like, dried flowers on top. And then since we had the chickens and ducks, I was like, why not add the goats? And so we got goats, and we were milking them, and then I was. I learned how to, like, make goat milk soap, which was super fun. And so my husband and I, like, went around to different farmers markets and sold our little goods, and we had a really fun time doing that ador.
- [20:00]
Jackie Zook
How long does it take to make, like, a soap? I'm just curious. I have no.
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Jolie Vacci
Yes. So, I mean, you have to milk the goat, so there's that. You have to freeze the milk. Because when you put the mix the lye into the goat milk, it will burn if it's not frozen. So you have to freeze it, make the soap. Then the soap has to cure overnight before you can slice it. And then it needs to sit for at least three to four weeks before you can actually use it in the shower or the bath. So it is a time consuming process.
- [20:27]
Jackie Zook
Totally. This is like, when do you have time? This is very important.
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Jolie Vacci
I use it as, like, my stress relief. I got to use the other side of my brain once in a while, you know, so good balance.
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Jackie Zook
Yeah, I definitely think it's awesome. So cool. Okay. And the other one. Oh, my God, you're a former beauty pageant winner. That is so fun.
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Jolie Vacci
That's a weird one. But yeah, like, my high school, they had, you know, different high schools have, like. So I grew up in Dartmouth, Mass. It was always like, the Mr. Dartmouth competition. Well, the year I was a senior, somebody was very smart and said, why don't we have a Miss Dartmouth competition? And I was like, sure, I'll sign up for that. And I ended up winning, which I just think is hilarious. And that was, like, my claim to fame from my high school year. And I was like, in the newspaper and I'll never forget, like, my. My grand prize was, like, a bracelet and, like, a year of free tanning. Because this was, like, in 1990. Whatever. It's so hilarious to me.
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Jackie Zook
Yeah.
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Jolie Vacci
Yeah. That was fun.
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Jackie Zook
Really fun fact. Like, I love that about you? Okay. You love treasure hunting. So for vintage items, that is fun. I have to. Yeah, that is really fun to do.
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Jolie Vacci
So we were just in Arizona over the a long weekend to visit my cousin. She's getting married and they had it. Whenever we go to a new place, we search like antique stores near me and my husband and I like, we like to go treasure hunting and find some unique, like, fun item. And we just have such a blast doing it. And, you know, sometimes you find the most random things and we just. You can just laugh about it, but other times you find some really nice stuff. So.
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Jackie Zook
Yeah, it's like one of your most memorable things that you pulled from something, doing something like this.
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Jolie Vacci
Well, I will tell you, I do have a collection and.
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Jackie Zook
Perfect. Okay, tell me more.
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Jolie Vacci
So I love chickens, Obviously. I have a flock of chickens and they have. They're called hens on nest. And they're like these glass chickens and they're only like this big. They're medium sized and they're kind of like a candy dish. Like, the top comes off and you can put stuff in. Well, I have like, I don't even know how many, 20 of them now. All different colors, like, and I have a special shelf in my house and they're all displayed there. So I'm always looking for a new color of a hen on nest.
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Jackie Zook
Oh, my God. That's a really fun fact. I'm learning a lot of fun facts about you today. I really like it, I have to tell you.
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Jolie Vacci
Thanks. You're so awesome.
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Jackie Zook
Okay. You are amazing. How can people follow you? Stay in touch, get in, you know, reach out.
- [22:49]
Jolie Vacci
The best place is to go to our website. It's Foundations Family law. And foundations has an s@theend.com. and that is all of our socials. So we're on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn. And then my podcast is divorcedetox and it's available on all the major podcast platforms.
- [23:05]
Jackie Zook
Amazing. Jolie. Everyone needs to check out Jolie and foundations Family law. Thank you so much for coming on today. You are a rock star. And stay tuned for who's next on scene.
- [23:22]
Next on Scene
The ups, the downs, and all the in between. What it takes to become next on scene. Are you next? Follow us at Next on scene.