Can You Heal a Wound Your Father Never Knew He Left? with Vienna Pharaon, MFT

Summary

Podcast Summary: Becoming You with Suzy Welch
Episode: Can You Heal a Wound Your Father Never Knew He Left?
Guest: Vienna Pharaon, MFT
Date: June 16, 2026

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Episode Overview

This emotional and insightful episode, released around Father’s Day, dives into the complexities of father-child relationships, especially when the relationship is difficult or fraught with unresolved issues. Host Suzy Welch, joined by renowned marriage and family therapist Vienna Pharaon (author of The Origins of You), openly discusses the lasting impact of "origin wounds" and explores how adult children can reckon with – and possibly heal – injuries sustained in childhood, even when their fathers are unaware or unwilling to acknowledge them.

Suzy and Vienna share personal stories, break down the concept of "origin wounds," and offer honest reflections on grief, forgiveness, generational trauma, and the practical realities of finding peace with parental relationships. The episode is candid, vulnerable, and ultimately hopeful, offering support and guidance to those who find Father’s Day to be more complicated than celebratory.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Stage: The Father's Day Dilemma

• [01:48] Suzy greets listeners and sets a vulnerable tone: “Welcome to a podcast that we were scared to make...when Father's Day is hard for you.”
• Both Suzy and Vienna admit to feeling intimidated by this topic and clarify they are not addressing overtly abusive relationships, but the “complicated” gray areas many experience with their fathers.

Introducing Vienna Pharaon and Her Work

• [02:20] Vienna introduces her background: Marriage and family therapist, author of The Origins of You, focused on tracing unwanted patterns in adulthood back to unresolved “origin wounds” within the family system.

The Five Origin Wounds

• [02:58, 30:50–33:20] Vienna introduces the framework of five wounds developed in childhood:
  1. Worthiness: “Was your worth in question with this person?... Were there conditions to how valuable you were to that person?” [30:59]
  2. Belonging: “Can I be who I am with you?... Or do I need to lose my authenticity in order to be accepted by you?” [31:51]
  3. Prioritization: “Do I feel deprioritized by this person, chronically?” [32:01]
  4. Trust: “Can I trust this person?... Maybe there are family secrets that a father is asking to keep...” [32:01]
  5. Safety: “Is my world safe?... Did my father protect and respect me?” [32:34]
• Suzy identifies with all five wounds, prompting Vienna to clarify how these wounds can shape our lives and how they are often passed from generation to generation.

Going Personal: Suzy and Vienna’s Father Stories

Vienna’s "Both/And" Experience

• [06:10–09:22] Vienna recounts observing her parents’ nine-year divorce starting at age six, highlighting her father's manipulativeness but also his reliability:
  • “My dad was masterful at the manipulation...But...his word was his word...he never missed anything I did.” [06:33–08:01]
• She describes the challenge of holding both positive and negative feelings:
  • “The same person who never lets me down...is also someone who can do something else that doesn’t feel so great.” [08:03]
• Vienna admits she avoided healing work for years because her parents became friends post-divorce, letting her “slot” their dynamic into “we’re good—nothing to see here.” [10:46–11:26]

Suzy’s Disconnection

• [16:02–20:22] Suzy opens up about her non-relationship with her emotionally absent father, noting that she “never did the work” and instead made a “calculus” as a child—“I don’t have a dad. I’m just going to not belabor it.”
• She describes seeking worth and presence in relationships:
  • “If I was just better at everything, he would pay attention.” [16:50]
  • She unconsciously chose her first husband to replay this dynamic, then found healing and parental love in her second marriage with Jack:
    • “He was not just my husband and my boyfriend and my best friend, but he was my mother and father.” [18:50]
• Sharing the story of her father's death, Suzy describes a final conversation in which he remained emotionally distant, prompting intense grief after his death—grief for “what we never had.” [24:18–26:22]

Generational Wounds and Breaking the Cycle

• [33:22–35:40] Suzy and Vienna discuss how wounds and dysfunction repeat across generations (“sin splatters”), and commend those who manage to break negative cycles:
  • “Hurt people hurt people. Right past the pain, right? And so the thing we can do is just stop the pain...let’s not do it to our kids or our partners.” [34:42]

Can You Heal the Father Wound?

• [41:50–49:40] Vienna shares optimism that healing is possible—sometimes with the parent, sometimes within oneself:
  • “He was blessed with a therapist as a daughter...I bring it back around over and over and over again.” [41:58]
• For listeners whose fathers cannot or will not engage, Vienna recommends therapy, letter-writing, or other “energetic” forms of release, but also warns:
  • “I like to remind people to not be surprised by unsurprising things...We want to avoid that space because that’s generally where the additional hurt and harm takes place.” [43:19–44:13]

Values and the Language of Healing

• [30:15, 34:42, 38:22] Suzy reflects on how naming wounds and values—like achievement or faith—would have empowered her to address the gaps in her relationship with her father, and perhaps heal or at least better understand what she needed.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Paradoxes of Parenting

• “The same person who never lets me down...is also someone who can do something else that doesn’t feel so great.” - Vienna, [08:03]

The Pain of Absence

• “Maybe if I was just better, maybe if I was just better at everything, he would pay attention.” - Suzy, [16:50]

On Grief and Finality

• “I was crying for what we never had...Death removes the possibility of what could be.” - Suzy, [26:22–26:30]

Generational Patterns

• “Hurt people hurt people...the splatter goes generation by generation until somebody heals.” - Vienna, [34:42–35:40]

On Making Peace

• “Making peace with something might mean that the charge doesn’t hijack you...but to feel something is important.” - Vienna, [45:06]

The Power of Expressing What Was Left Unsaid

• “I would be curious about your openness to maybe writing a letter of what it is that you wish that you could have said.” - Vienna, [47:09]

On Family Healing

• “If you think you’re enlightened, go spend a week with your family.” - Vienna, quoting Ram Dass, [50:03]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:48] – Suzy and Vienna introduce the topic; why Father’s Day is “complicated”
• [02:20] – Vienna outlines her background and clinical approach to family wounds
• [06:10–11:26] – Vienna’s personal story: parents’ divorce, mixed feelings about her dad
• [16:02–20:22] – Suzy’s story: her emotionally absent father, replicating the wound, finding healing in marriage
• [24:18–26:22] – Suzy tells her father's death story and her surprising grief
• [30:50–33:20] – Vienna describes the Five Origin Wounds and how to identify them
• [33:22–35:40] – Breaking generational cycles of trauma
• [36:44–38:22] – Vienna on “no contact” and the spectrum of adult child choices
• [41:50–43:19] – Can the relationship be fixed? The importance and limitations of relational repair
• [45:06–46:04] – The process and limits of “making peace” with a painful parental relationship
• [47:09–48:43] – Vienna suggests letter-writing as a pathway for closure
• [50:03] – Famous quotes on family dysfunction and the potential for healing

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Tone and Takeaways

The episode is honest, empathetic, and at times raw. Both Suzy and Vienna validate the experience of those for whom Father’s Day (and parental relationships in general) bring pain, not just celebration. The conversation is at once practical—naming the five wounds, discussing options like therapy and boundary-setting—and deeply compassionate, normalizing the ongoing struggle to find peace, acceptance, and healing.

Listeners will leave this episode feeling seen in their struggle and equipped with new language to describe their pain, as well as encouragement to pursue healing—however that may look for them.

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Further Resources

Find Vienna Pharaon:

• Instagram: @mindfulmft
• Websites: newyorkcouplescounseling.com | viennapharaon.com
• Book: The Origins of You

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“Feeling lets us know that something mattered. It’s okay that it matters.”
— Vienna Pharaon, [45:20]

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Transcript

[Susie Welch]

Are you really buying a car online

[Vienna Ferrin]

on Autotrader right now? Really?

[Susie Welch]

At a playground?

[Vienna Ferrin]

Yeah, really. Look at these listings from dealers.

[Susie Welch]

Wow, your search can really get that specific.

[Vienna Ferrin]

Really?

[Susie Welch]

And you just put in your info and boom, car's in your budget. Mom needs a second.

[Vienna Ferrin]

Honey, you can really have it delivered. Really? Or I can pick it up at the dealership. One sec, sweetie. Mommy's buying a car.

[Susie Welch]

Mommy, look. I think your kid is walking up the slide. Kyle.

[Vienna Ferrin]

Again? Really? Auto trader. Buy your car online.

[Susie Welch]

Really?

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Vienna Ferrin]

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[Susie Welch]

n s dot co. Well, happy father's Day. Or maybe not. Welcome to a podcast that we were scared to make. This podcast, I'm here with Vienna Ferrin. I mean, who is a famous family and couples therapist. She's so SM smart. So smart. And we're terrified of what we're about to discuss with you, which is when Father's Day is hard for you. This is Susie Welch and welcome to becoming you, Vienna. Before we get going, tell my audience who already knows who you Are who you are.

[Vienna Ferrin]

Okay. I am a marriage and family therapist, Licensed marriage and family therapist. I've written a book called the Origins of you.

[Susie Welch]

Great book by the Origins of you. Because honestly, I didn't fully understand myself until I read your book. So go on.

[Vienna Ferrin]

How breaking family patterns can liberate the way we live in love. My work is all about going back into our family of origin, the family system or systems we grew up in, learning about the places where we accrued these origin wounds and how those wounds come with us into our present day relationships and the unwanted patterns that we have in our lives today. The arrow points back to irresolution from the past. That's our work.

[Susie Welch]

And that is why we're talking on Father's Day. Because when you point to your past, who are you pointing to but your mother and father? Welcome to the podcast. If you're new. Oh God, I love you and I'm so happy you're here.

[Commercial Announcer]

We're wait.

[Susie Welch]

We've been waiting for you. And if you're returning, Hi again and I love you too. I'm a professor at NYU Stern School of Business. I teach a class called Becoming youg, which is about your work, is a lot about people's past and understanding your past. My work is a lot about your future and how you go forward. And this is why when we met each other on a previous podcast, when we were talking about how hard it is to go home for Thanksgiving, basically, that we sort of looked at each other and said, whoa, our work belongs next to each other. Because you're talking about how you came to be and I'm talking about, okay, now that who you are. How do you get out of your own way and move forward? My work is on values and values expression. And so we were talking a little while ago and I wanted very much to do a podcast about Father's Day, which is this week. And I told you a story, which was that Father's Day has always been very complicated for me because I have had a complicated relationship with my father my whole life. And I thought I was alone. I thought I was completely alone in that my best friend has a spectacular relationship with her father. It's a little bit verboten, at least in my generation, to talk about. It was easier to talk about trouble with your mother, but trouble with your father, eh, under the rug. And I was in my 40s or 50s when one Sunday I was at church with my husband and my pastor, Jimmy Scroggin, said, okay, it's Father's Day. I know this day is complicated for some people, and I literally had a physical reaction to it. It was like it was the first time I heard somebody name how complicated this day was for me of my relationship with my dad. And I want to be super clear. My father never hit me. There was no abuse whatsoever. We're not talking about those kinds of complicated relationships. They're in a different category. But you can still have a very complicated relationship with your dad. So we're going to attempt to do something that we're scared out of our wits to do, which is talk about how you come to understand and resolve and move through and past a complicated relationship with your dad to living a fully expressed and joyful life. The focus of your work is about wounds that happen in your family of origin and how they define how you show up in the world. We're getting heavy right away here talking about wounds, but the facts are we've got these wounds. They do heal, but things reopen them. And I take a look at values, which are what matters to you. A lot of times your values grow out of your wound. So let's go there. Let's, let's. Let us, for people who have not read your book or even if they want to hear from you, talk about it again. We're going to talk about the five wounds, the origin wounds that all of us have one of them and some of us have all five of them. And I think they really show up on Father's Day. If your relationship with your father is complicated, I mean, look, some people listening to this, like, I love my dad. He's the most important person in my life. Congratulations. What a gift. Okay, but for people who have a little bit of huh on this day or a little complexity, we'll talk about the wounds and then I would like to talk about values after that. But first I want to just start by getting personal a little bit and talk about our dads and set our own context. You have a complicated relationship with your dad.

[Vienna Ferrin]

Both. And you know, I have shared this publicly many times. Before my parents went through a nine year divorce process. It was the longest in the state of New Jersey at the time. And I was in observation of my parents and conflict.

[Susie Welch]

And you were an only child watching this.

[Vienna Ferrin]

Only child watching this.

[Susie Welch]

Starting at what age?

[Vienna Ferrin]

First grade.

[Susie Welch]

Oh, good.

[Vienna Ferrin]

Five, six years old. And I remember, you know, my dad was somebody who was manipulative and he would gaslight and he was masterful at the manipulation. And I saw that be so confusing for my mother, who would not be Able to track what was going on. And it caused a lot of emotional flooding and paranoia and all that jazz. And, you know, there. There's an impact even when something isn't happening directly to you. Being an observation, I say wound forms through experience or through observation. So even though that wasn't directed at me, watching it happen was still something that had a big impact on me and it shaped the way that I move. I mean, my first conflict with my husband, it's like I had to be a point prover and I needed to be right. And I mapped it right back to watching my parents in this dance and thinking, okay, my dad is somebody who is always right, and that is a much safer place to be. Yeah, it's a much safer position to stand in than the alternative. And so this mapping was happening constantly and in the same breath, my dad was somebody who. Oh, my goodness, his word was his word.

[Susie Welch]

And to me, yeah, he was trustworthy.

[Vienna Ferrin]

He was trustworthy and he followed through. When he said he was going to be there, he was there. He was somebody who never missed anything that I did. A game, a recital, whatever it was. He was always there.

[Susie Welch]

How hard for you as a child to hold this paradox.

[Vienna Ferrin]

I said, isn't it interesting?

[Commercial Announcer]

Right?

[Vienna Ferrin]

I remember, you know, this past Mother's Day, my parents were at our home, and we were, you know, not just focused on the mothers, but I was talking about some of the things that I really appreciated about my dad. And one of them was that every time I asked to go outside and play, he said yes. It's something that stands out to me. It's so touching and so meaningful. But that paradox, right, the complication, the layers of. Oh, the same person who never lets me down by following through on his word, always says yes when I want to go outside and play and throw the ball around, is always there when I need him to be somebody I can rely on, is also someone who can do something else. That doesn't feel so great for me in that position of observer. And, you know, I think sometimes, like you said before, fathers can slot into the. I had a great father. Oh, my goodness, I appreciate who he is. I had a terrible father. It's so clear and so obvious. And then a lot of us are in that middle where you're like, oh, you know, there were some things that were not so great, and then maybe many things that were great and wonderful. And we sort of dance in this place. And what does it look like to reconcile that? What does it look like to move forward, to have this Day show up and to hopefully not be hijacked by it.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah. But there's always, like, how do you react when the day shows up? And there's like a mixture of good and bad, and everybody's like, yay. You know, I. Your dad's still living.

[Vienna Ferrin]

Yes.

[Susie Welch]

So I understand. There's sort of sensitivity talking about him. Right. Like, that I don't have, because my dad passed away a little bit more than a year ago. Can I ask, like, a very personal question which you do not need to answer, which is, why did it take nine years?

[Vienna Ferrin]

I don't think he was trying to make her life easy.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah, but what protracted torture for a child. Nine years of uncertainty. Kids want certainty. I mean, they'd rather be bored than uncertain. And. No. And this was nine years. Yeah.

[Vienna Ferrin]

A lot of dragging things out.

[Susie Welch]

But you saw him in those nine years. Oh, yes, he was there.

[Vienna Ferrin]

They lived just a couple of minutes away.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah.

[Vienna Ferrin]

I mean, back in the 80s 90s, it was every other weekend. Father's got Wednesdays. You know, that's. That's what it was. But, yeah, it was. It was a drag out. It went on and on and on. It was almost like conflict was the love language, you know?

[Susie Welch]

Yeah. And then when they got the final divorce, you were maybe a teenager by then. I mean, you were in college practically by then, right?

[Vienna Ferrin]

Before then. It was before college, but.

[Susie Welch]

And then how was your relationship with him in the years after that?

[Vienna Ferrin]

Dude. It's so funny. The way that their relationship trajectory happened was, you know, all this high conflict, and then they became good friends.

[Susie Welch]

Did your parents do.

[Vienna Ferrin]

Yeah, and they would come to all of my lacrosse games in college, and they'd come to. I was. I played in the orchestra as well. And they would come to that. And they would drive in the same car. And then we started to do holidays together, and there was.

[Susie Welch]

Did they remarry each other?

[Vienna Ferrin]

Neither one of them remarried. And it was interesting, too, because them becoming friends actually was a huge part of me avoiding doing the work that I needed to do.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah.

[Vienna Ferrin]

Because I could slot that into we're good.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah.

[Vienna Ferrin]

And them being good meant that I was fine. Everything was fine. Nothing to see here.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah.

[Vienna Ferrin]

And I didn't need to do the healing work that ultimately I did wind up doing. But I was able to stay far away from my pain. I didn't know how to be with pain. I didn't know how to feel. And when they became friends and they were okay, it's like, great.

[Susie Welch]

And did you sort of say in those years My relationship with my dad is okay, we're good. We're good.

[Vienna Ferrin]

Yes.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah.

[Vienna Ferrin]

And I think, you know, for the most part we are good. I think there are limitations. And I think, look, when it comes to talking about parents and why we were like, oh, this is so complicated and tender is a lot of people feel differently about what one's work is when it comes to these complicated relationships. Some people swing a little further to forgive and move on. Some people move towards accept what the limitations are. Some hold context, others say context is an excuse.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah, right.

[Vienna Ferrin]

And so it's, it's a deeply personal journey.

[Susie Welch]

We're so much more comfortable talking about our problems with our mothers. I mean, I don't know, it's like the, the societal trope is like you've got issues with your mother or your mother's your best friend or whatever. We talk about our relationships with our mothers so much more ease. I think the relationship with the father, especially for women is, that's fraught. I mean, and there's incredible research that shows that a woman's relationship with her father from ages 7 through 13 is the most important indicator of whether or not you'll have self confidence. And it just shows you what a dad, an absentee dad can do for you. Are you really buying a car online on Autotrader right now?

[Vienna Ferrin]

Really? I can get super specific with dealer listings and see cars based on my budget. You can really have it delivered or pick it up. Mommy's kid is walking up the slide. Really? Autotrader, buy your car online? Really?

[Susie Welch]

On his podcast chasing life, I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN's chief medical correspondent brings you the secrets of the happiest and healthiest people on the planet so that you can live your best life. Are some people just born happier than others? And what might they be doing that the rest of us aren't? Follow chasing life with Dr. Sanjay Gupta on Apple, Spotify, Iheart podcasts, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Commercial Announcer]

Happy 250th birthday, America. I've decided to spend this semiquincentennial as our founding fathers would have wanted me to, checking out the furniture America's waited 250 years for at Bob's Discount furniture. At Bob's, I know I can find everything from ultra comfy power reclining sofas with genuine leather seats and stylish dining sets with convenient lift top storage to best selling bedrooms with over 700 five star reviews and a feature packed pop up sleeper sofa with built in shelving, charging storage and those signature Bob O Pedic seats. Because nothing is more American than a sofa that's a bed and a library and a closet. So if you want to join me in decking out your house with the finest affordable furniture this 4th of July, why not stop in or shop online at Bob's Discount Furniture, where America shops for furniture.

[Susie Welch]

How do you typically celebrate Father's Day with your dad?

[Vienna Ferrin]

Now we see each other and my journey with this has been to understand the capacity and the limitations. And I say, and I emphasize my because I know that my journey is not everybody's journey, but mine has been around understanding where the limitations are and where the capacity is. And in that space is choice. When I am in contact with here's what he's capable of and here's what he's not. You know, it's like my dad is at 88 and I know that he struggles to touch his own pain.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah.

[Vienna Ferrin]

And because of that, I know where that limitation is. And so in that it offers me a choice. I either can have a relationship with him or I don't have to have a relationship with him. And I choose to have a relationship with him even though there are limitations and you know, there's a capacity that he's met when it comes to some of the work that I wish that he could do. Right. But that's my path and it's not everybody's.

[Susie Welch]

No, I think everybody's relationship with their dad is like their relationship with their spouse or their mom, just, just very unique.

[Vienna Ferrin]

And again from my position, I can either emphasize where he did not do things great.

[Susie Welch]

Right.

[Vienna Ferrin]

Or I can emphasize that he did do things great and still hold in the non emphasis of where he did not do things great. I can still hold the pain, the grief, the disappointment.

[Susie Welch]

Well, you're very self actualized. I have to say that you can do that.

[Vienna Ferrin]

I think that's the part of the work.

[Susie Welch]

That's the work. I've never done the work around my dad. People often comment when they listen to this podcast that I talk about a lot of stuff, but I never talk about my dad. He was a complicated person and I've never ever done the work around my relationship with him. And maybe I never will, maybe it's just too painful. But I do see so much of my life story written by my relationship with him, which was a non relationship. My dad came from a family where his narrative was that he was unloved and he was the black sheep and he found my mom who was another black sheep and they got married. She was A fiery Catholic Italian, you know, of Sicilian origin, who was very extroverted. And he was a deeply introverted guy from a culturally Jewish family. And they all wanted to go into the family business, which was retail. And he went to MIT and he became an architect. So I think in many ways he was never. He never conceptualized himself as a father and he never became a father. He was not present. He was actually more present for my older sister. But one out of four is not a batting average you want to play with. And I think somewhere, if I had any kind of success in doing the work, I sort of made a calculus, like in sixth grade, like, okay, I don't have a dad. I'm just gonna not belabor it. What can I do? I don't have one. But I do think that the wounds that I have. To use your language and your system of understanding our past are so much from just this feeling. Like maybe if I was just better, maybe if I was just better at everything, he would pay attention. It's so interesting to me, the way it played out. Look, it was an up and down thing. He had his own. He had demons and he had to work them out. And I just sort of, from age, as I say, sort of like, I don't know, very young. Okay. Certainly before I got to high school, understood he was not going to be a part of my life. And I had to remove all expectation. It wasn't like he re injured me again and again because I just thought, he's not there. I don't have. I don't have a dad. But I do want to say that one way I see it, having played out is in my first unhappy marriage, I absolutely replicated the relationship. I found a person who was not committed to me. I found a person who was not present, who was unfaithful. I was very used to feeling unworthy, so I could continue to feel unworthy in that marriage. And he had a spotty relationship with faithfulness, let's just put it that way, which I was familiar with as well. Then when I had my very happy second marriage and I was finally the person, I had grown up a lot. I had become my own woman. And I found Jack. I've said this before. He was not just my husband and my boyfriend and my best friend, but he was my mother and father. And he stepped in and he did, like I learned from Jack, what a great father was. And, you know, look, we had the age difference, so he was 20 years older than I was. And he did things that I wish My father had always done. And I think I've asked you, when we're not on a podcast, like, is it possible we choose our mate because they heal our wound? I mean, and when one of the first things Jack said to me really early on in our relationship with Kellec had one date, and he said, I want you to know I'm always with you in your pocket. And I was like, holy what someone can be with you, defending you and protecting you. And another thing that Jack did really early on in our relationship, and I was like, that's my man. Was that he sat my kids down. I was like, outside with my ear up to the door, like, eavesdropping. And he said to my kids, no harm will ever come to your mother again. I will protect your mother for the rest of her life. Your mother will never need or want anything ever again. I am here to take care of your mother. It was very interesting. My three of the younger children were sobbing from relief because they had felt I was very exposed in the world and they really felt for me. But my oldest son, who had sort of thought he was playing that role, was like, wait a minute, what about me? But that's a whole other podcast. But I think that a lot of my sort of anger, maybe or repressed anger towards my dad fell away when I jacked because I had the father figure needed.

[Vienna Ferrin]

Well, and the wound isn't being reopened and reopened.

[Susie Welch]

So did closed. Yeah, he did.

[Vienna Ferrin]

The contrast between the first marriage and the second marriage, when the first mar. You know, when you talk about the familiarity of the first marriage, the wound of the father, it's so present, so open. And yes, what Jack offered in the second marriage was incredibly healing.

[Susie Welch]

And I said to my kids, like, like, you may object to our new lifestyle because Jack wanted to fly around and do all sorts of things, but I was like, everything's going to get better. And it did. And I want to get to your wounds. I just want to quickly wrap up the story of my own relationship with my dad. My dad retired early. He and my mom, oddly moved to Florida. They were the least Florida people in the world. And beyond that, they moved to a golf community. Two people whose hands had never held a golf club in their entire lives. They did this weird thing, but they were a two person universe, the two of them. They perfectly fit each other. They were married, like, God knows how many years. My dad died at age 98, and so he and my mom were married from when they were 22, 23 on. And then a crazy thing happened at the end of his life because Jack had been sick for so many years. I'd sort of. You know, this thing that happens to people whose spouses get very sick. I'd sort of become a doctor, like, I had learned so much. Like, I would say to people like, you know, what's your. This level? What's your that level? What's your. What's all this other stuff? And I kind of understood medical records. So my mom called me one day. She said, sue, I just got home from the hospital. Your dad had a stomachache. I brought him to the hospital. They asked him to sign something called a dnr. And they sent us home. And I said, I need to see the report. So she managed to take a. Unbelievable. Cause she was 96 at the time. She managed to take a photograph of the medical report, and she sent it to me. And I was sitting on my bed, and I was looking, and I could see she couldn't understand it. But basically, what it said is two weeks to live filled with cancer. He'd gone up with a stomachache. They'd done an mri. He was just completely filled with cancer, like, every organ had it. And I was in this unbelievable situation of having to tell my mom the truth about my dad. And I said, mom, Dad's very sick. Dad has cancer. And she said, cancer? Why did no one say this to us at the hospital? And I thought, suddenly, I'm in this incredible intimacy with my mother and father. So I was going to have a Christmas party like. Like the next day. I canceled it. I flew down immediately to Florida, and I sat with my mother and father with the medical report, and I told my dad he was going to die. And there was, like, this silence. I felt like I never knew him all that well. But the most intimate conversation he's ever going to have in his life, he is having with this daughter that he had no relationship with. And so I said to him, mom and Dad, I have some terrible news for you. I'm reading this report, and they expect that dad is going to die in a week or two. And they were like. There was dead signs. My mother was like, no, no, I don't think. Because if that was true, they would put your father in one of those homes. And I said, you're speaking of hospice, Mom. Hospice happens at home now. It's very rare that somebody goes to some. And I'm, like, having this, like, incredible. Meanwhile, I'm thinking to myself, I cannot believe I'm alone having this conversation. And my father was completely silent, completely Silent. And finally, I found this, like, inner voice in me, which I had never done in my entire life. And I said to him, what are you thinking, Dad? I mean, I was 65 years old, and for the first time in my life, I'd had this conversation with my father of, like, the most important. And I had to ask him something I'd never asked him before. He had certainly never asked me. We did not do feelings. And I said, what are you thinking, dad? And he said. There was this long pause. And I want to tell you, I had no idea what he was gonna say. I didn't know him well enough to know what he would say. And he said, well, everybody dies of something, Susie. And I was, like, so flabbergasted. I said, well, do you. I actually said to him, do you want to talk about it? Do you want to talk about where you go? Do you want to talk about what happened to you after you die? Do you have any questions? Do you want to hear about my faith? Do you want to talk about faith? Do you want to talk about. And he said, I just want to go to bed. And so I walked him to his bed, and he never got out of bed again. The hospice nurses came the next day. My sisters all came down. And I stayed with him till the end. And I thought, how the word that's coming to my mind right now, but maybe it's not right, which is peculiar. It was that we would never, ever been close. But this story of society and culture from the beginning of time is that we are with our parents when they die. That's sort of our job as children. And I stayed and I sat next to his bed, and he was under the waves, and I didn't know what to do. I didn't know what to say to him. I couldn't say things like, dad, remember the time I had. No. Remember the times with him? I'm now kind of piecing this together. The only thing I could do was what I did when Jack was dying and under the waves. And I got out the Psalms, and I read him the Psalms. And I thought, this is how I know how to deal with it. Just like always. I didn't know how to talk to my dad. And so I just reverted to that. And then my siblings came, and we all just sat there until his last breath. And then it was. I thought, the relationship is over. And here's the crazy thing, Vienna, is that after he died, I cried so much. I cried so much. And I wrote about it, actually, in a newsletter, saying my dad died. I've been crying. One of my sisters called me, and she said, have you really been crying, Sue? They had the same experience of him as I did. Same exact experience. Not there. And she said, are you really crying, Sue? And I said, I never lie in my newsletters. I've been crying so much. And then it dawned on me. I was crying for what we never had. And so Father's Day is complicated in that on Father's Day, and especially now, it's like, maybe it's easier. Cause I don't have to put in that phony phone call that I always had to do, where I'd pick up the phone and say, say, hi, dad. Happy Father's Day. Thanks for giving me life. That's what I used to say, because I couldn't think of anything else to thank him for. He would say, oh, thanks for calling, Sue. And then it would be over. And so now, as I think about it, is I. I still have that feeling like, okay, I didn't have a. I didn't have a dad. And so I think that this is complicated. You know, I don't know if I'll ever get over the complexity of Father's Day.

[Vienna Ferrin]

Yeah. The grief of what wasn't. And I also think death removes the possibility of what could be.

[Commercial Announcer]

Yeah.

[Susie Welch]

I think that's what maybe I was crying about is like, there's no more opportunity. And I think the last opportunity was when I said to him, what are you thinking, dad?

[Vienna Ferrin]

It's a bid. Will you meet me in this moment?

[Susie Welch]

Yeah.

[Vienna Ferrin]

And facing your own mortality, obviously, is complicated for some.

[Susie Welch]

I know.

[Vienna Ferrin]

And that bid for connection, you know, it was a. An opening of a moment. I tried. What's happening in your world.

[Susie Welch]

Yes.

[Vienna Ferrin]

As you hear this, as you come face to face with the fact that you are. Yes. We all know we're dying. But, you know, very intentionally, right now, in this moment, that you have a few weeks left to live.

[Susie Welch]

Is there any. I mean, I think I wanted him to say something, to be honest with you, Vienna. Like, I was like, what are you thinking, dad? And then I sat by his bed, and there was, like, these moments where he could have said something, but it was. I wasn't surprised when he didn't. But I think I probably, until the last minute, hoped. I think I might have.

[Vienna Ferrin]

Hope is an interesting one. Hope saves us sometimes. And hope can sometimes be where our suffering is, and it's the negotiation with. What do I know to be true, with trying to hope for it to be something other than what I know to be true.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah.

[Vienna Ferrin]

Sometimes on the deathbed you do have conversations. And I can imagine that not having that, you know, taking this moment, being there, reading the results, opening the door and not having him walk through it was that final.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah.

[Vienna Ferrin]

Now it was that said, no, you're not going to get anything different.

[Susie Welch]

That's right.

[Vienna Ferrin]

And whether it's, you know, the fantasy that you're going to acknowledge how you were as a father or maybe you might say, you know, here are the things that I wish I had done differently. I think many people go into that space when they think about what the possibility of what that conversation could look like and to not have it actualize in that way was just another disappointment.

[Susie Welch]

I imagine it was because like I found it like so strange. Like I thought I'd have no reaction. But honestly, in the weeks afterwards I would wake up in the middle of the night crying. One of my sisters said, I think maybe you're re grieving Jack. And I thought, I don't think so. I know what it feels like when I'm grieving Jack. But what I want to turn to. Thank you for hearing me tell that story. I wanna turn to like the wounds and I want you to go through your five wounds.

[Vienna Ferrin]

What is that?

[Susie Welch]

Oh yeah, it's a World cup holder.

[Vienna Ferrin]

Like the soccer tournament World cup holder for the world.

[Susie Welch]

Fits every car, holds every cup, holds every.

[Vienna Ferrin]

It has a Carvana logo.

[Susie Welch]

Carvana made it. They buy and sell cars so they made a car cup holder. So. Got any good cups lately?

[Commercial Announcer]

I used to.

[Vienna Ferrin]

I just couldn't figure out where in the world to put them.

[Susie Welch]

The World Cup Holder brought to you by Carvana. Proud sponsors of the World cup holder, sign up today to win [e-mail] not authorized or endorsed by FIFA. Not a real product for parody and fair use purposes only.

[Commercial Announcer]

It's America's 250th birthday and I'm going to shop the furniture America's waited 250 years for at Bob's Discount Furniture. At Bob's they've got ultraco comfy power reclining sofas with genuine leather seats, stylish dining sets with convenient lift top storage, best selling bedrooms with over 700 five star reviews and a feature packed pop up sleeper sofa with built in shelving, charging storage and those signature Bob O pedic seats. So stop in or shop online at Bob's Discount Furniture where America shops for furniture.

[Susie Welch]

Are you really buying a car online

[Vienna Ferrin]

on autotrader right now? Really? I can get super specific with dealer listings and see cars based on my budget.

[Susie Welch]

I.

[Vienna Ferrin]

You can really have it delivered or pick it up. I think kid is walking up the slide. Really? Autotrader, buy your car online. Really?

[Susie Welch]

I think when I hear all five wounds, I think, that's me. That's me, all five of them. And maybe it's possible, but I think I. I would have been so much better off while my father was living to understand the language of the wounds. And I wish that I had known. You know, I think the same thing is true about values. I wish earlier on I'd had the language of values because I think I could have gone to my dad and said, hey, you know, dad, I've got this very high value of achievement. And I don't, you know, I don't feel like you, you know, understand that about me. So let's just. For those who are not familiar with the wound work. Why don't you talk about what it is?

[Vienna Ferrin]

Well, we maybe look at it through the context of the father, child, adult child relationship. You know, wounds tend to develop in our childhood.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah.

[Vienna Ferrin]

And that can. That's a full range. I mean, we're not just talking about when you were four or five or six years old. Okay. The five are worthiness, belonging, prioritization, trust, and safety. Pretty straightforward, right, what you would imagine them to be. But again, through the context of the father, you know, your relationship with. With your father or any male major figure. Maybe it's a stepfather or just whoever your caregiver was, you know, was your worth in question with this person? With this person? Were there conditions to your worth? Were there conditions to how valuable you were to that person belonging. Can I be who I am with you? Or do I need to lose my authenticity in order to be accepted by you? Okay, I'm going to trade my authenticity.

[Susie Welch]

We're two for two here already. Keep going.

[Vienna Ferrin]

Prioritization again with the father figure, with the father. Do I feel deprioritized by this person? Chronically? Three for three.

[Susie Welch]

Yes, we are.

[Vienna Ferrin]

Yeah. Four. Trust, you know, can I trust this person? And sometimes it's okay, I see. I'm witnessing betrayal. I'm witnessing lies, deceit. Maybe it's something that's directed at me. Maybe it's something that I am in observation of between the two adults in the room. Maybe there are family secrets that a father is asking to keep from the outside world, from the inside, inside the family. These are many of the ways in which a trust wound can y be created. Four for four.

[Susie Welch]

Yes, we are.

[Vienna Ferrin]

And then the last one is safety.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah.

[Vienna Ferrin]

And, you know, safety orients around you, certainly. But again, the observation, is my world safe? Is do. Am I protected, respected here? But also, are the important people in my life protected and respected here? And sometimes a safety wound can originate because we have a scary situation like a home invasion or we're home with a grandparent who has a stroke, and we're a tiny human in the world, and we don't know what to do. That is something that can cause a lack of safety moving through the world. But again, when we're thinking about it through the context of the father, at least for today's episode, it's like, did my father, father figure care and protect and respect and think about the behaviors and. And how those things impacted me?

[Susie Welch]

Number five for five.

[Vienna Ferrin]

Five for five.

[Susie Welch]

What do you do? Like, I mean, look, look for sure, all five wounds opened by my relationship with my dad. And, you know, you said once to me something that has never left me, which is that it's very important for compassion to see your parent as somebody else's child. So, like, when I think about my dad's grandmother, she certainly caused wounds in him. And then this is the thing about generational dysfunction. My pastor often says sin splatters and that when you do something, something that's very bad, you lie, you cheat, you do something, it splatters. It doesn't just affect you, it affects everyone around you. And I think family dysfunction similarly splatters. Okay? And so whatever happened with. Between him and his mom and his dad, it's not just splattered on him, but onto my generation as well. And so this is why on Mother's Day, my sisters and I always call each other and we say, happy Mother's Day. Congratulations on breaking the cycle. And that we ended this generational cycle of. Of dysfunction. We all think we did, and we pat each other on the back for it. But I think that I feel like, okay, my dad, he was a provider. I want to say that about him. It's like, you know, we generally, you know, had a roof over our head and some financial security, but intermittent. We were not on the street. Okay? So I want to say that about him, but he, you know, looking at it, okay, he opened these wounds. Somebody must have opened them in him, okay? Because then he just, you know, hurt people. Hurt people. Right past the pain, right? And so the thing we can do is just stop the pain, right? I mean, I think that the implication is to say, let's not do it to our kids or let's not do it to our partners. Because sometimes we take the wounds that are open and we visit them on our partners.

[Vienna Ferrin]

Correct, of course. And you're right. Like the splatter goes generation by generation until somebody heals, reconciles what needs to be reconciled so that that pattern doesn't have to keep playing out. To your point. Congratulations for, you know, breaking the generational wounding and trauma. And it is the thing that just keep getting passed down unless we turn back to it and look, the generations obviously before us, and I'm in the millennial camp, but you know what? We. We know that therapy and this type of language, this wasn't something that was so prominent. Right. The idea of healing.

[Susie Welch]

It wasn't available. It was not available, or I think I would have tried to go find it. It was like, suck it up.

[Vienna Ferrin]

Right? Suck it up, tuck it away, get on with it. Survival is what needs to happen here. We are not going down to feel and be with our emotion. That is silly. And it's not functional. But it is functional. You know, it's like, I think that that's what we've come around to is maybe it's not useful when you're out hunting.

[Susie Welch]

Right, right.

[Vienna Ferrin]

You know, hunting and gathering. But it's. But it is very useful and profound. Important work.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah.

[Vienna Ferrin]

If we want to have functional, healthy relationships.

[Susie Welch]

Can I ask you a question that's inflammatory right at this moment in our cultural time? Because I'm thinking about what happened with my dad and how we just soldiered through this is the way it was. I didn't talk about it. You know, he showed up at my wedding. He, you know, he sort of did what he had to do at the bare minimum. What do you think? I mean, one option today is to go no contact when this kind of thing. And so this is very controversial right now. As a family therapist and a couple therapist, what do you think about no contact?

[Vienna Ferrin]

Totally. I mean, I think these different lanes that we have, Estrangement, no contact. You know, a lot of times with estrangement and no contact, it's. It's a hem and haw. And what I mean by that is maybe you go no contact for a year and a half, and then the contact is made, and then you take another no contact. And it's not always a fixed state. For some people it is. It's totally fixed. I haven't spoken to the person in 20 years. You know, that's what it is. And for others, it's okay, well, it's been six months and maybe there's a phone call, and we pick it up and we engage in a little bit and, you know, we go on from there. And then on the other side of the. The pendulum, we have the. These are your parents. You got to forgive them.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah.

[Vienna Ferrin]

You've got to accept them as they are, move on. You're going to have regrets.

[Susie Welch]

Right.

[Vienna Ferrin]

And I think where that becomes controversial is that maybe I won't have regrets. I know. You know, in fact, maybe what I will regret is if I try to have this relationship and I keep getting hurt and I keep getting harmed and I keep getting disappointed that, like, that is actually where I. I do not want to be in. So the space is what I need. I think sometimes we miss this middle space, which, look, this is everybody's journey for them to find for themselves and what is appropriate. But I think a lot of times there's a huge responsibility on the adult child to either accept and move on or go no contact. And that's what it's going to be. And we don't actually lay the framework and the foundation for what does it look like to do the work that you need to do in order to have a relationship?

[Susie Welch]

Two people have to want to do the work. That's the thing. And so, like, I couldn't have done the work with my dad if I tried. He just looked what he said to me when I said to him, dad, how do you feel? You know, and at the end of his life, he said to me, everybody's got something, Susie. You know, there were times where I thought, why do I even bother? Every time I see him, it causes me so much frustration. I don't need him. I don't need him for financial. I don't need him to feel good. I have this fabulous marriage. Every time I see him, it's a little bit of a bummer. You know, he hasn't made eye contact with me for years. I mean, and my number one value is cosmos, my faith and the. In the Ten Commandments. One of the Ten Commandments is to honor your mother and father. And I struggled with that commandment for, like, 20 years. And I was like, why? If they don't believe in God, why, If they're not, you know, why? Why? And then I just couldn't. You can't find anything in the Bible that contradicts that commandment. And I would, like, literally say to my pastor, but look, it says here. And I really don't want to honor them. They're really, really crummy people. And, you know, he would say, well, look, you know, you got to understand this commandment in the context of the Bible, where kid, you know, parents had no other means of support. There was no Social Security. And part of this was you had to do it or your parents were going to die in their hut, you know, after the age of 60. And there's other places in the Bible to talk about how you deal with people who are evil and you're supposed to separate from them. And I thought, oh, does this get me off the hook? But I was not ready to call my dad evil. I. I don't think he was evil. I think he was a terrible dad. He's a person who shouldn't have been a dad. And in fact, one of the hard and very hard things that he did is he would frequently announce to us he shouldn't have been a dad. Like, he would say things like, do you know how much money we would have if we never had you kids? Our life would be so much easier if we never had you. And I was like, you know, years later when I became a parent, there's a lot of things you want to say to your kids when they're driving you crazy, but one thing you do not say to your children is, we'd have more money if you weren't born. Thanks, dad, for having less money for us. But I think that I struggled a lot and I. But I didn't. What I didn't have because there was no conversation around it, I didn't have. It felt to me culturally the option of no contact. It was like minimal contact. It was kind of muddle along contact. We used to do this thing where when we lived down in Florida, not far from my parents in their ridiculous golf community, we would invite them over for the holidays. And the one thing that really bonded my kids and me and Jack was how we would, like, complain to each other all day long before they came over for Thanksgiving or Christmas. Both of these holidays being really joyous for us because we were a happy, functional family. Well, in my family, Christmas is a religious holiday. We go to church and we talk about what the religious aspects are of it and so forth. And I remember my mom pressuring us to come to church with us. And the kids were like, don't do it, don't do it. And especially my father, who had no faith whatsoever, and my mom at least had been raised as a Catholic Catholic, so she understood who the person of Jesus was. And they came over. And right before we left for church, my father asked if he could sit in the car during church, now that I look back at it, it was kind of a values thing. Like, he knew what my number one value was. And he was saying, like, I don't buy into your value. I wish I had had the language of both wounds and values at that time to say to him, dad, I want to talk to you about why. Why that request, which we let him do. Why that request is hard for me. I had no language. I mean, have you seen in your practice people fix their relationships with their dads? Sure, tell me about it.

[Vienna Ferrin]

Yeah. I mean, and in some ways, I even feel like I've done some of that work in my own relationship.

[Susie Welch]

Yes, it sounds that way.

[Vienna Ferrin]

You know, I think I like to say he was blessed with a therapist as a daughter. Yeah, he was. You are not getting away from. From this conversation. And, you know, it's something that I bring back around over and over and over again.

[Susie Welch]

Do you talk to him openly about the wounds he caused in you? Do you really?

[Vienna Ferrin]

Yeah, yeah, we've had big conversations about that.

[Susie Welch]

And he was willing to do it.

[Vienna Ferrin]

He was, what if your dad won't do it?

[Susie Welch]

What if your dad won't do it?

[Vienna Ferrin]

Well, then there's a limitation there. You know, I think one of the things that can be so hard. Again, my dad is 88, and there can be a lot of blocks in that generation to go into this space. And there is a disarming almost thing that has to happen, right, where I'm not gonna come in here with guns ablazing. Right. It's like, I see you, too. I hold your context in your story, even if I don't know all of the details. And I also know that hearing this feedback isn't easy, I think, to hear that you have hurt your child or disappointed them.

[Susie Welch]

Can an un. Untrained, you know, unprofessional do this? I mean, if you're like, just for our listeners, okay. If you, you know, they're saying, okay, I have a complicated relationship with my dad. It's not what I wish it was. It's not ever been what I wanted to been. There've been some hurt. I recognize these wounds in myself.

[Vienna Ferrin]

I think I would generally recommend working with a family therapist if you're going to take that risk. Because one of the things that does happen when you step into that is I like to remind people to not be surprised by unsurprising things. And so we go in and we're like, okay, let me pull up my sleeves. And I'm pulling up a little bit differently than I did before because maybe this conversation's going to go differently. That hopeful part again. And sometimes a third party in the conversation is incredibly important because it can move the needle a bit. But a lot of times we're just going to have the same chronically disappointing and frustrating conversation. These moments are just met with deflection.

[Susie Welch]

And.

[Vienna Ferrin]

And that is not a space that I think most people want to enter into. You know, I think they. We want to avoid that space because that's generally where the additional hurt and harm takes place.

[Susie Welch]

I'm in such a place of wonder right now talking about this with you because I am a pretty head on girl. Like, I take it on me too. I mean, I talk about all sorts of really hard things with my students, with people come and do becoming you. I go right there, I see something, I say something. I've taken on unbelievable conversations with my kids about our differing values. I have spoken directly to my mother about incredibly hard things, my sister's about hard things. But I never had the hard conversations ever with my father. And I rarely talk about him. I think Jack was the only person I spoke to about him. But I now. What for me, Vienna, because Father's Day is complicated for me and maybe it always will be. I feel like, you know, I would say to somebody in passing, well, I've made my peace with. With it. Do we ever, though, make our peace with a relationship with a parent that has been hurtful?

[Vienna Ferrin]

I think there can still be charge.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah. There.

[Vienna Ferrin]

Making peace with something might mean that the charge doesn't hijack you and, you know, take over your life or the day, but to feel something is important.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah.

[Vienna Ferrin]

You know, feeling lets us know that something mattered. It's okay that it matters that you feel disappointed or sad or that the grief is there and, you know, we don't necessarily need to feed that moment and give it and fan it and make it a big thing, but to be able to turn toward it and acknowledge it, you know, if that's what comes up this Father's Day. Right. I think there's something about saying hello, you know, hi to whatever emotion, whatever pain is there, whatever the charge is, again, without fanning it and making something, something of it bigger than it needs to be, but to at least give it a nod because it has a significance to it.

[Susie Welch]

I wish I'd done it. I truly do. Just hearing you say it, I obviously didn't have the capacity, but I wish going back, I wish that I had said to him somewhere along the way when I was strong enough dad, let's go talk to somebody, or I don't want this to be our narrative. Dad. I think it would have been brutally hard for him, and maybe that's why I didn't, but I wish I had, because now I don't have another chance to do it. And I have no choice now but to make my peace with it. But I think that Father's Day will probably never be without charge for me. I like to always think about breaking narratives and breaking cycles. And that Jack broke for my own kids that cycle. He gave them a lot of love. He was not the perfect stepfather. And their own dad has really come around and become such a good dad to them. And I wanted, you know, maybe that's the place I've got to rest, but maybe part of my narrative is always going to be that it gives me compassion for other people. I did not get that relationship. It's actually a hard thing for me to say, but it was a great loss not to have that relationship. I think it defined a lot of who I am.

[Vienna Ferrin]

I think what I hear from you. I know your dad's not here to receive it, but I would be curious about your openness to maybe writing a letter of what it is that you wish that you could have said. I know he's not going to receive it, but there is something about whatever it is that's inside of you having an opportunity to move energetically outside of you. Maybe there's something in there.

[Susie Welch]

It feels so hard, but I think that it's probably a great idea. I went on a retreat with Hoda Kotbi, the great Hoda Kotb, and I was one of the speakers. And she kept on saying to me, susie, you need to do breath work. You need to do breath work. And I said to her, I'm scared of doing breath work because of everybody who does breath work, they say that. They sob hysterically. She said, I think you need to do it. So I went and did it. And as part of it, the breathwork person had me say stuff to my mother that I never said. It was so crazily over emotional that I was like. It was like this, like, unbelievable, like, you know, invitation to say stuff to your mother. Oh, my God. And I thought to myself, myself, never again. Like, Jodi said, are you gonna do it again? I was like, never again. I can't. I don't have the ability. Like, I can't function in the world. I can't get up and teach students, grade students, give speeches, run a company and have those Kind of emotional releases. And to me, what you're suggesting feels like one of those experiences. But I. You know, there's a great line in Aladdin where the genie says the idea has merit. I think the idea has merit in that maybe because it scares me. Me. It's exactly what I. I should do. I'm going to. I'm going to entertain that notion.

[Vienna Ferrin]

You probably need some spaciousness around it. Meaning you're not going to teach about 30 minutes after you do exercise. Yeah, but I think that the, The. The threat, right, is that doing this and leaning into this then makes it so. Expressing my values is really hard.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah.

[Vienna Ferrin]

Like achievement and work, centrism and all the. Right. It's like that. If you go there, what else does it block for you? Or what does it contaminate or what does it, you know, destroy? Right. It doesn't allow you to move through the world in a way that you are so used to, in a way that is really functional for you, in a way that you know how to do. You're familiar with it, and it brings something unfamiliar to the surface to you and asks you to sit in the unfamiliarity and. Yeah, that face.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah, no, that face. If you're not watching this on YouTube, I just. I just made a scared and scared grimace face.

[Vienna Ferrin]

That's right.

[Susie Welch]

Look, you have to have the capacity to do it, but at the end of the day, it's going to catch up with you. Every time I'm with you, I feel the necessity to quote the famous Philip Larin poem. Please pardon my French. Here they you up your mum and dad. They may not mean to, but they do. And I have empathy because I have been a parent who's been imperfect. But when I say that quote or when I've said it to you in the past, you've come back with an equally good quote about families.

[Vienna Ferrin]

Oh, right. If you think you're enlightened, go spend a week with your family.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah. If you think you're go spend a week with your family and, you know, holidays like Father's Day, you know, they just put it into high relief. So Father's Day, look, you may be having a spectacular Father's Day, and this podcast has just been a curiosity to you where you thought, wow, who knew people could have these complicated, unpleasant relationships with their fathers? I've been so lucky and, wow, I feel even better. But maybe this has struck a chord with you and your relationship has been hard. I want to thank you, Vienna, for your thoughtfulness and. And you're opening up of how these things happen. And actually what I love the most is your ideas about how we might move towards resolution and so that we can live more at peace and in harmony, which is what we all want. We want to flourish. We want to be at peace with ourselves. We want to take the charge out and live in some kind of gentle, tender place. And sometimes we have to face into why the day is complicated. And if this day has been complicated for you, maybe this has opened up your thinking about it. Thank you. I could not have done this without you. We were scared about making this podcast, but now I feel okay about it. How about you? All right. Well, thank you. Fianna Faran, how can we find you if we want to hear more from you?

[Vienna Ferrin]

Mindfulmft on social new yorkcouplescounseling.com vienna feren.com

[Susie Welch]

all right, we'll put all of this stuff in the show notes. Thank you for joining us. This has been Becoming youg. I'm Susie Welch.

[Vienna Ferrin]

This is the sound of captivity,

[Susie Welch]

this

[Vienna Ferrin]

is the sound of rescue. And this is the sound of freedom. Give Armenia's captive bears a second chance by supporting International Animal Rescue. Call 508-826-1083 or search the Great Bear Rescue to learn more.