The Insult That Changed My Life Could Change Yours — and Probably Should. (Part 3)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Becoming You with Suzy Welch

Episode: The Insult That Changed My Life Could Change Yours — and Probably Should. (Part 3)
Host: Suzy Welch, NYU Stern Professor & Business Journalist
Release Date: July 14, 2026

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Episode Overview

In the third and final installment of her deeply personal series, Suzy Welch explores how a humiliating moment catalyzed her journey toward self-discovery, leading to the creation of the Becoming You methodology. She guides listeners through three powerful personality and aptitude assessment tools—Career Traits Compass, Enneagram, and Viewfinder—explaining how each helps in identifying your authentic aptitudes and purpose. The episode closes with a poignant epilogue about “Dan,” the classmate whose insult altered Suzy’s life trajectory.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Recap of Series & Purpose of Episode

• Where We Are: Suzy recounts the previous episodes:
  • Part 1: Her public humiliation at Harvard Business School by a classmate, Dan. Introduction to the concept of cognitive aptitudes.
  • Part 2: The aftermath of the incident and Suzy’s resolve not to let others write her narrative, plus a deep dive into how to identify aptitudes.
• Today’s Focus: Introduction of three more tools (Career Traits Compass, Enneagram with Rasanath Das, and Viewfinder 360) to round out the methodology for building a life of authentic purpose.

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2. The Career Traits Compass (06:46–17:56)

What It Is:
An aptitude test created by Suzy and her team, designed to assess where you fall on the spectrum between individual contributor and leader, without biasing leadership as “better.”

Why It Matters:

• Most tests assume leadership is superior; the Compass is agnostic.
• It's essential for career satisfaction to know your preference for individual versus leadership paths.

The COMPASS Framework:

• Nerve (N):
  • Radical candor: Telling the truth without insensitivity.
  • Edge: Ability to make decisions.
  • Stamina: Physical and mental endurance.
  • Quote: “To be a leader today, for better or for worse, you need all those components.” (13:10)
• Elasticity (E):
  • Capacity for continuous skill upgrading and pivoting.
  • Comfort with ‘irregular relationships’—diverse people and groups.
  • Quote: “Elasticity, now more than ever, is necessary for leaders.” (13:49)
• Soundness (S):
  • Emotional regulation, self-awareness, accountability.
  • Stability ensures psychological safety for others.
  • Quote: “Leaders need to show up as the same person every single day because all eyes are on them.” (15:26)
• Wonderment (W):
  • Curiosity about the future; hunger for understanding what’s next.
  • Quote: “To be a leader... you’re going to have to learn how to increase or embrace...your sense of wonderment.” (17:56)

Self-Application:
Suzy encourages listeners to self-assess their Nerve, Elasticity, Soundness, and Wonderment to guide self-understanding, regardless of immediate access to the tool.

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3. The Enneagram with Rasanath Das (20:56–35:46)

What It Is:
An ancient and now validated system for understanding nine personality archetypes, each with distinct worldviews, motivations, strengths, and shadows.

Highlights from Interview:

• Basic Explanation (23:09):
  • “The Enneagram really explains, deep down, what are the gifts that you have received and what are the shadows or the insecurities...of your fundamental personality.” — Rasanath Das
• Layers of Complexity:
  • Each type has three ‘presentations’ (healthy/creative, controlling, destructive).
  • Wings and energy subtypes expand the nuance to as many as 108 variations.
• Personal Example (Suzy’s Type):
  • Suzy is a Type 3 Achiever with a 4 (Individualist) wing.
  • Threes seek validation and worth through achievement; Fours are driven by the need for uniqueness.
  • Quote: “Threes can have validation for breakfast, lunch, and dinner and still be hungry for it.” — Rasanath (27:43)
• Practical Application:
  • Enneagram helps in understanding work and relationships.
  • Certain types fit (and struggle with) certain roles. E.g., Type 7 Enthusiasts thrive in creative, dynamic environments and may struggle with detail-oriented follow-through (30:36–31:13).
  • No type is better than another; all have gifts and shadows (31:44–32:07).
• Finding Your Type:
  • Tests are flawed; best method is reading/listening to expert explanations, honest self-reflection, and feedback from close contacts (34:47–35:08).

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4. Viewfinder – 360 Feedback Tool (37:54–51:34)

Purpose:
To reveal how others truly experience your personality, closing the gap between self-perception and external perception.

Structure:

• Based on the PI Theory of Success:
  • P – People: Quality and trustworthiness of your relationships (collaboration/authenticity).
  • I – Ideas: Creativity and ability to help others develop ideas.
  • E – Execution: Reliability—do you deliver on promises?
  • Quote: “Part of the Becoming You methodology insists that you get a report card from the world about how it experiences your personality.” (37:54)
• Provides self-awareness awareness score by comparing self-evaluation vs. feedback from others.
• Suzy’s Hack: Ask 20 people for the first word that comes to mind when they see your name pop up.

Key Insight:

• “You cannot let the Dans of the world define you. You must have the facts to define yourself.” (50:51)

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5. Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “Leaders are good, other options are bad...one of the defining memories of raising my children is...the interviewer looking at us...and asking if he was a leader. And so this starts the narrative in everyone’s head. Leaders are good.” — Suzy (08:15)
• “Your personality is the way the world experiences you.” — Suzy (37:54)
• “Every type has its set of gifts and its set of shadows.” — Rasanath Das (32:07)
• “Self-awareness is just an unbelievable trait to have. And the more you have of it, the better.” — Suzy (50:11)
• “Because then and only then, with God as my witness, you will never be hungry for your purpose again.” — Suzy (51:34)

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6. The Epilogue: What Happened to Dan (50:51–51:34)

• Suzy shares that Dan, her former classmate who once publicly doubted her, went on to have a successful finance career.
• Ironically, his four daughters also entered finance—possibly challenging his original gender-based assumptions about aptitude.
• Quote: “I think Dan learned about aptitudes the long, hard way...maybe he probably today understands aptitudes because he’s watched his own daughters...I think they taught him the lesson.” (51:10)

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Notable Timestamps

• 06:46–17:56: Deep dive into Career Traits Compass framework, leadership versus individual contributor, and component breakdown.
• 20:56–35:46: Interview with Rasanath Das on Enneagram's origins, types, applications, and finding your type.
• 37:54–51:34: Suzy introduces the Viewfinder 360 tool, practical exercises in gaining external feedback, and the critical need for self-awareness.
• 50:51–51:34: Epilogue—Dan’s story comes full circle.

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Key Takeaways

• Knowing your authentic aptitudes and personality is essential to building a fulfilling, purpose-driven life.
• Suzy advocates for using multiple, scientifically validated tools to build this knowledge (cognitive, career, personality, and 360 interpersonal feedback).
• Self-awareness, embracing your unique blend of traits, and closing the "perception gap" are vital steps in personal and professional development.
• The “insult” that changed Suzy’s life became, ultimately, the catalyst for a methodology that helps others claim and live their purpose.

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Listen if:
You want a candid, practical roadmap to understanding yourself in depth—beyond labels and outside expectations—to design a meaningful, customized life and career.

For more:

• Explore Enneagram types via Rasanath Das’s UpBuild podcasts (free on Spotify).
• Watch for public release of the Career Traits Compass and Viewfinder tools, or try Suzy’s DIY feedback exercise.

Transcript

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My friends, my friends, my fellow purpose seekers. Hi. We have arrived. This is the finale. This is the third and final chapter of what I did not realize when I started telling this story, which was going to become one of the most personal podcasts I've ever put together. But here we are in. And I am glad that we're here because we have a lot of ground to cover today. And I promise you, it's actually worth it. Now, if you've been with me for parts one and two of this series about the dis that disrupted my life, thank you very much. And if you're just tuning in for the very first time today, I love you. Welcome. I'm so happy you're here, but I have to ask you to please go back. Go back right now. Hit pause and please go find parts one and two of this series. It matters. It does. I hate it when people tell me to do this, but it matters. And then come back because this story, this story of this put down that cracked my life wide open and that sent me on a path I never expected. And ultimately to this podcast and to the Becoming youg Methodology. That story has a beginning and a middle and an end, and I would love you to have all three of those things in context. Okay? I'm Susie Welch, your host, and this is Becoming youg. Now, for those of you who are caught up, here's where we stand. In part one. I told you about a day at Harvard Business School when a guy named Dan, a classmate of mine, publicly humiliated me in front of 90 other people. All right? It was very unpleasant. I also introduced you to the concept of aptitudes. What your brain is wired to do well innately and naturally before you even pick up a textbook or take a class or work for five years doing something. Okay, we got really clear in part one on what aptitudes are and are not. And to do so I introduced you to one of the world's leading experts on the subject of aptitude's. Betsy Wills, author of youf Hidden Genius. She also showed up in part two. In part two, I told you what happened after the Dan incident. The rage and the revenge and the decision that I made in my gut that I was never gonna let someone else write my story for me. And we heard again from Betsy Wills. As I said about this test, you science in detail. This is the first of the four tools that we use in the Becoming youg Methodology to help people identify their cognitive, their intellectual aptitudes. And Betsy and I, in part two, really focused on five of those aptitudes. Just like you need words to describe your value so you can talk to people about them, you need to have words to describe your actual aptitudes, your emotional and cognitive aptitudes, so you can describe yourself and explain yourself to the world so that you can build a life that fits you better. So here's what we're covering today. We're going to cover something that's called the Career Traits Compass. This is a tool that was designed by me. I was the creator of the tool called the Values Bridge. Once I got started on this and started making psychometric, scientifically validated tools, I don't know what came over me. I decided it's what I want to do with my life. I mean, I just spent several hours today on the phone with the two psychometricians that are part of our team, Dan and Daphna. I mean, like, doing the kind of work that apparently I was born to do. Anyway, we're gonna talk about the Career Traits Compass. This is another aptitude testing tool. We developed it in our own lab. I'm gonna describe to you what it does and I'm gonna introduce you to all the terminology involved with it. And then after we talk about Career Traits Compass, we're gonna spend some time with Rasanath Das, who is a profoundly respected leader in the study of the Enneagram. The Enneagram is a personality type indicator. I love it. It's part of the Becoming youg methodology. It's complicated, it's misused. Today we're going to get a lot of clarity about it and to find out what Enneagram type you are. For me, when I found out what My Enneagram type and wing were my life changed. And so I really want you to understand the Enneagram better. And we've got Ross and ah thas along today to help you do that. And finally, we're gonna talk about another tool invented in the Becoming youg Labs called the viewfinder. And it's a 360 tool. Oh, don't freak out. Don't hit stop. I know 360 tools freak people out, but you've got to understand how the world experiences you. You do. That's an aptitude to know how the world experiences you. And so we'll talk about that. Those are the three tests we'll cover today. And then we're gonna get to the epilogue. The epilogue is a surprising thing that happened to Dan. I did not see it coming. When I found out about it, which I found out about a few years ago, I was like, what the heck? And so I will share. And I think, I'm hoping, I'm really hoping that as I tell you that story, it begins to make more sense to me. So we got a lot of ground to cover, as I always say. So let's get going. So the first tool we're gonna talk about is the Career Traits Compass. You may listen to me talk about the Career Traits Compass and want to take it. I use it when I teach intensives. I use it when I teach Becoming youg. Our coaches use it all the time. It is currently in beta for the rest the world because it has been scientifically validated four times. But we do not like to release our tools to the general public until they've been scientifically validated seven times. It's probably been used in beta close to 25,000 times now. And I want to talk to you about what it does. Even understanding the terminology of it is going to be a way for you to understand your own aptitudes. Look, you can know all your cognitive aptitudes. Are you a generalist or a specialist? Are you a diagnostic problem solver or a fact checker? These are all ways your brain is wired to work more naturally. But in the world world of work, there's something else that you need to know about yourself to figure out what kind of job to have, what kind of career to build. It is where you fall on the continuum from individual contributor to leader. Look, just on the face of it, it's important because as you think about your career, there's kind of two different paths. There's kind of a fork in the road where you decide whether or not you're going to go individual contributor route, or if you're going to go leader route. It's important to know so that you can help write the own narrative. And you can say to people, I want to be an individual contributor or I want to be a leader. But here's why. It's really important and very key, complicated and kind of emotionally charged from when we're very little. The cultural narrative is that leaders are good, other options are bad. One of, like, the defining memories of raising my children is like, Eric, who we now all know personally because he's been part of this podcast area. Eric and I bringing Roscoe, our oldest son, to be interviewed at some private school. He was four and a half years old. And the interviewer looking at us, four and a half years old, looking us dead in the eyes and asking if he was a leader. And so this starts the narrative in everyone's head. Leaders are good. Oh, Johnny's a little leader. Sally's a leader. Being a boss is good. The whole girl boss narrative. The facts are that leadership is an aptitude. It's different than the cognitive aptitudes we talked about last week, because leadership you can actually get better at with practice. Okay, you could practice and practice and practice, and it's not gonna make you a specialist if you were a generalist and vice versa. Okay, so the cognitive aptitudes that we discussed in part two, they're set by the time you're age 15. Leadership has four general domains associated with it, in my opinion, as a professor of management. But you can actually, with work and practice and deliberation, get better at most of the aptitudes that go into leadership. I want to tell you personally, I've gotten better at them with awareness of what the aptitudes are like. Sometimes I have to actually literally remind myself, oh, that's right, this is part of leadership. I better do it more, because I'm not. I'm not a natural leader. I think at age 66, with decades of practice, my team would describe me as a leader. Let's ask my producer, Aliza. Yes, you are very much a leader. Okay, yeah, no pressure, Aliza. But I actually. Look, maybe I don't think I'm. I don't think I'm deluding myself. I think I'd get a decent grade on leadership. But it's been practice, the Career Traits compass. I created this tool because I discovered that my students were very confused about whether or not they were leaders or individual contributors. So I thought, there's got to be a Good test for this. And you know what I found out? I found out when I took every leadership aptitude test on the market and drove everyone out of their minds. I found out that these tests were kind of biased because the assumption was that leadership was better than being an individual contributor. And I wanted to create a totally agnostic test. The test is built so that if you get a score that shows you're more of an individual contributor, it says, hey, that's fine if you want to be an individual contributor. If you'd like to be a leader, here are the ways to improve it. But no, no shade if you're showing up as an individual contributor. My own son, who shall remain nameless, took this test, showed up as a strong individual contributor, and he said, I'm co cool with that. And in fact, in his job he's 100% individual contributor. Now, if he was supposed to become a leader and they said to him, hey, we want you to be a leader, he would know exactly how to improve it. But I wanted to create a test that just showed you where you were on the continuum from individual contributor to leader. And so I designed that test. It took me about a year and a half and I said, we're sort of halfway through the scientific validation of it. So far so good. In all of the beta testing, people are loving it. So I'm feeling very, very positive about it. It's coming soon to you. You know where I had to start with the career trades compass. I had to sit down and I had to think to myself, what does it take to be a leader today? In 2000, what it took to be a leader was different than what it takes in 2026 because cycles are shorter, complexity is higher. These are very complicated times. Business goes a lot faster. The emphasis on employee well being is much higher. Believe me, 25 years ago, the focus on psychological safety and employee wellbeing did not exist. And so I want to go into this saying, you know, look, if you don't agree with the four areas that I'm pointing out, then the construct doesn't work for you. I'll like it very much. Teach students. I'm always trying to think of constructs that they'll remember, and I grouped them as I thought they were, and then I realized that actually the letters that they started with were the same as the letters in a compass. The first for the north is called nerve. Nerve. You need a lot of nerve to function as a leader in today's fast, complicated, no visibility, no predictability environment. Nerve is made up of some smaller traits. Those are radical candor, the ability to tell the truth without hurting people. That's part of nerve. So is edge, the ability to make yes or no decisions. And then there's a final component of nerve, and that's stamina. I wish it wasn't so, but you need so much physical and mental stamina to be a leader today. So the test on this continuum takes a look. First at nerve. Now look, if you've got loads and loads of nerve, and not very many people do, you are ready to be a leader. You may be very low on nerve. I actually remember one time the daughter of a good friend taking this. She got practically zero on nerve. And she looked at it and she said, I know I got practically zero on nerve. I have no stamina whatsoever. I'm tired constantly. I need my sleep. I don't like going and going and going. I. Whatever. I can't stand telling people hard truths. And I hate making a decision under pressure. I'm agnostic on almost every leadership trait. Okay? Like for instance, people sometimes think. Cause I personally have quite a lot of stamina. Oh, Susie, you think everybody should have a lot of stamina. And I think, oh, God forbid everyone have the stamina I have. What a. I mean, I go, go, go. It's part of me constitutionally this way. My mom was this way. She's 98 years old. You call her. Typically she's mopping or vacuuming. It's weird. And it's just like, whatever. I have no judgment. I mean, some of my four children have stamina. That's very, very different than mine. I don't judge, and no one should. One of the things I like about the career traits compass is it's like the values bridge. It's agnostic about all of these traits. But you need to have a picture of your absol around leadership, and you need to know where you fall on this continuum, either so that you can build a career that reflects those aptitudes around leadership or individual contributorship, or so that you can change. You can't really change stamina, but you can certainly get better at edge making decisions with limited information. There's a lot of different techniques for that. You can get better at Radical Candor, learning how to speak the truth. Kim Scott has a fantastic book called Radical Candor. And if you want to get better at it, I can't recommend that book strongly enough. And frankly, even if you think you're good at Radical Candor, everyone should read Kim Scott and listen to her podcast by the way she's. She's the queen. To be a leader today, for better or for worse, for better or for worse, you need all of those components. So that's the nerve portion of the career traits compass. Next, we're moving along to the E, you know, east, all right? And it's for elasticity. This is the ability to upgrade your skills over and over and over and over again, okay? It's the ability to quickly pivot, pivot, pivot, pivot to new ways of doing work. Now, as a leader, leader, you're typically leading people constantly through new ways of doing work, because you know what I'm talking about. Work is changing constantly, and you can't be hoping everybody's doing it but not doing it yourself. And so elasticity, now more than ever is necessary for leaders. Now, if you're an individual contributor, don't get me wrong, you need some form of elasticity, but it's imperative. It's not optional if you're a leader. So part of elasticity is this ability to constantly pivot and upgrade and change and throw out the skills you had and bring in new ones. I mean, there's incredible research out of LinkedIn that shows like in the old days, five years ago, your skill churn how many skills you turned over. Every year was like, out of 10 skills, you threw out three of them and got three new ones. Now it's 6.5. Okay, 6.5 of the skills that you're using in a given year.

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[Susie Welch]

Goodbye to them. New ones coming in. We know this is happening. So there's a second part of elasticity, which is your ability to have what I call irregular relationships. These are relationships with people who are different than you are. To be a leader, if you're going to have a good, competitive corporation, company, organization, you have to have comfort with relationships with people who think differently than you do, look differently than you do, act differently than you and everything. Otherwise, you're just going to sink to the bottom. This is a big, beautiful world with all different types of people. And if you're going to lead in that kind of organization, you can't have, oh, feelings when you're with people who are different than you. So we've just talked about nerve. We've talked about elasticity. There's two more components, and if you go around the compass down to S, that is for soundness. Soundness, emotional regulation. It's good for everybody to be emotionally sound. This is a complicated world. A lot of people have challenges that make being emotionally sound and regulated Hard or harder. There's a lot of anxiety in this world. Look, I'm a professor of young people. I encounter true anxiety every single day. And I get that the world has got a lot of overstimulation and so and very scary things in it. I mean, it's a fact of life for anybody who's around young people. That anxiety is amongst us and it is even for people who are not young people. I get it totally in the context of this world. But if you're a leader, you need a lot of emotional soundness because one leaders need to show up as the same person every single day because all eyes are on them. And if you're not showing up as the same person every single day, it can cause a lot of anxiety within the organization. But I'd also say that you need a lot of emotional soundness as a leader today. Because today part of your job is the psychological safety and well being of your people in organizations. Today there's a high demand for bosses and organizations caring about them as human beings. Do organizations deliver on it? No, they do not. Not as often as they should. Should they? Yes, they should. And so as part of this construction, it does measure self awareness, emotional regulation, positive energy and accountability. Those are the components of soundness. I think you have a lot more room for movement as an individual contributor around your soundness. You don't have all eyes on you watching your mood state. And you also are not caring for other people who might need help around emotional soundness. So that's why soundness is is also part of the construct.

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[Susie Welch]

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[Susie Welch]

The final part of the career traits compass is W for what I call wonderment. It's about curiosity. It's about a desire to see what's coming around corners. It's about curiosity about the future. And this is again in today's world, absolutely essential to being a leader. You've got to be successful, scared and paranoid about what's coming in the future. And you've got to have a true authentic hunger and curiosity about it. True curiosity is thought to be on a gene doctor minus 47. And so how can you actually improve that? Well, there's actual hacks for increasing your appearance of curiosity. But if you're going to be a leader, you're better off having the underlying inborn aptitude of curiosity about the future. And you know as well as I do, some people have it and some people don't. I mean, even among my own kids, you know, I have seen very different levels of curiosity about the future. I have one kid who just like reads the news constantly and she's obsessed with what's coming in, different trends. And I have other children who shall remain nameless, who are very happy to live in the present. And you know what? No shade. Can I say it enough times? No shade. But if you're gonna be a leader, if you wanna be a leader, you're going to have to learn how to enhance or increase or embrace if you've got it, your sense of wonderment. And so that's the fourth part of the career traits compass construct and we're very excited about it. It's still in beta, as I said. Unless you wanna come to one of my classes or. But look, you don't have to do that. Just ask yourself, where do you stand on nerve as I've just described it? It's stamina, edge and radical candor. Where are you with elasticity? This is your comfort with changing what you know, changing your skill base over and over again. And your comfort with your regular relationships. Where are you on soundness? A lot of people just know this intuitively. But think about your level of self awareness. Think about your emotional regulation, your level of positive energy and your accountability. Do you get things done? Do you finish what you started? Finally, wonderment, how curious you about the future, about what's coming. What's your hunger for that knowledge? I mean, just go ahead and do that in your own head. Write it down. Because again, this is going to give you a sense of your aptitudes around leadership. And at the other end of the continuum, individual contributor. No better or worse, just better or worse for you. But we're talking on becoming you, about creating a life of design. The way you do that is by knowing what your aptitudes are. That's what this three part series is about. And Career Chase Compass I think gives you a lot, a lot, a lot of information on it. And so I hope my description of it has been helpful to you. So we're gonna turn now to another way of knowing your aptitudes. And that is your aptitudes around your personality. Look, we all know that we can be better or worse at a job because of our personality. Certain kinds of work call for certain kind of personalities. And certain kinds of work are very bad for certain kinds of personalities. And so it's very important to know what our personality actually is. And there's a great tool to help you understand what your personality actually is. It changed my life. I keep on saying it, but that's why I'm telling you about it. The Enneagram. The Enneagram. The first evidence of the Enneagram is from the assyrian times in 1400 BC I believe was finally scientifically validated in 2020. But I think that the Enneagram in proper hands is unbelievably eye opening. And so I want to introduce you to Rasanath Das, one of the world's leading experts in Enneagram. He's been my teacher of the Enneagram. I went through his ENT certification. One of the hardest things I've ever done in my life to so that I felt confident teaching the Enneagram. And we're going to talk to you about what the Enneagram is and how to handle it so that you can add it to the tools that you have to understand your aptitudes. Here's my interview with Ross. I am on the phone with Ross and at DAs. He is, in my estimation and the estimation of many others, the world's Leading expert on the Enneagram. I say this, I mean, I hope it's not cringey to you, Ross, but I consider you like a real thought partner. Like, you help me think, you know.

[Rasanath Das]

Thank you. Thank you. I so deeply appreciate it. Giving me the opportunity to work with you like this.

[Susie Welch]

Oh, please. All right. Well, besides that, you're just. You're just a wonderful person. And I love just being your friend. Okay. Some people are really, really aware of the Enneagram. I have to tell you a story, Ross, very briefly is. Which is I went out to Aspen. I was invited out to Aspen to do Becoming Us, which is becoming you with couples. And the year before, the sort of. The person who had been brought into this annual event was a person who was. Who did Enneagram. I immediately could tell that every single person had been mistyped. But the obsession with Enneagram is real. It's like a drug. Once you take it, you gotta keep on taking it. And I was that person. I was a person who's told I needed to learn more about Enneagram. And I put it off and put it off because I thought it was a little woo woo. I thought it was a little like the horoscope. Another person who's on this podcast, Betsy Wills, an aptitudes expert, said to me, susie, get over yourself. You gotta look at Enneagram. After I learned about Enneagram and I sort of scratched the surface, I thought a couple things. I thought, this is fascinating. This is important. And I thought, I must learn more. So I poked around online to find out who was the person who could. Who's considered the smartest person on Enneagram. It quickly led me to you. I did a cr. What felt like a crazy thing, which was, I emailed you. When I hit send, I said to the person in the room with me, there goes nothing. And you wrote me back. You wrote me back. What a lucky day. I want to ask you for the totally uninitiated, what is the Enneagram?

[Rasanath Das]

Broadly speaking, you could call it a personality typology. But when you narrow it down, the Enneagram really explains, deep down, what are the gifts that you have received and what are the shadows or the insecurities of your fundamental personality. And this is hardwiring that we are talking about. So there are nine different types on the Enneagram. You could call them archetypes. And each of the enneagram types 1 through 9 indicates a particular way of viewing the world. That way of viewing the world is so hardwired that it brings with it a set of gifts and also brings with it a set of challenges, a

[Susie Welch]

perfect explanation of it. I want to just say, I'm sure for people who are not familiar with Enneagram, a million questions are popping up into your head. Really? Nine personality types that explains everything and everybody.

[Rasanath Das]

Yes. So you have to experience it to really understand how this works. But you see certain patterns in. In nature. So like, for example, when you take music, there are seven notes.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah.

[Rasanath Das]

The way the notes are weaved together then, you know, can compose so many different kinds of music. There are many similar patterns when you take physics or chemistry in terms of how nature works. And so then you look at the Enneagram theory. The research is essentially looking at basic temperaments. There is a paper published in 1966 around temperaments that actually breaks down every possible temperament into essentially nine different temperaments. The Enneagram maps very, very direct directly to those nine different temperaments. We are talking about fundamental temperaments that are seen in nature.

[Susie Welch]

I am a true believer, a full believer. And I am a skeptic and an anti woo woo girl. And I. The Enneagram is a true construct and it has been scientifically validated at this point. It's a little bit more complicated and nuanced than nine types because each one of the types has three presentations. There's the. The creative, healthy presentation when you're sort of. When you're feeling unstressed and your best self and you're mature and evolved. If your optionality gets removed and you're stressed or you're under pressure or any number of things are making life harder for you. You have what is called the controlling expression, where you've slipped out of the healthy and create a presentation. And then finally, for each temperament, there's a destructive presentation where you're your worst self. It's like when you are at your worst. And so there are these nine different types of temperaments. But then within those, there's three presentations.

[Rasanath Das]

That's right. Three different, broadly speaking, three different ways of showing up.

[LG Brand Representative]

Right.

[Rasanath Das]

And then there are other nuances. You have a secondary type that is adjacent to your primary type, which we call the wing. You have a type and a wing that adds a shade to your personality. And then there are a few more things that the Enneagram framework presents that adds more nuances, more layers of complexity.

[Susie Welch]

Exactly. Like energy type. And I will say that when I went on to become certified as a facilitator in the Enneagram, so because though I could be on Solid ground. When I was teaching it myself and I went through the program with you at one point, I think you actually quoted the number of Enneagram types. When you add in all the layers and it's like a hundred, and you

[Rasanath Das]

get 108 different types on the spectrum.

[Susie Welch]

Right. But, you know, I think you're ahead of the game if you understand your type and your wing. Just to make this a little bit more concrete for listeners who have. Have. Who are not familiar with the Enneagram, let's just talk about. Let's talk about my type. Okay. I am a type three achiever. I'm a three Wing four. My wing is the individualist. Can you explain what my general motivations and kind of insecurities are?

[Interviewer or Podcast Host Assistant]

Sure.

[Rasanath Das]

So the type 3 fundamentally is looking for the complete fulfillment of one's individual potential. This starts very, very early. And the fulfillment of the potential is akin, meaning it directly ties to my sense of self worth. And worth is such an intangible thing. So as a type 3 very early on, I recognize my worth lies in doing so. Now I have to convert life into a game to be. To be played in one. Because when I win, I know what my worth is. And when I know what changes to make so that I can win, I

[Susie Welch]

remember I finally realized, oh my God, I am such a type 3. When you said the Threes do it for the collapse. I mean, there's a certain, like, just constant desire for outside validation when you're a type three.

[Rasanath Das]

That's right.

[Interviewer or Podcast Host Assistant]

All.

[Rasanath Das]

All types require validation. But nobody requires validation as much as the Threes. I say the Threes can have validation for breakfast, lunch, and dinner and still

[Susie Welch]

be hungry for it. Look, I. And then my. What does my wing four tell you about me? This is the individualist. What is. What are my. What's going on with that?

[Rasanath Das]

The individualist at the core is really looking for my own identity deep down. And I know I'm original. I am. I am different from the rest. I am looking to establish my personal significance that is not, you know, merged into my environment. I am personally different and unique. So that's how it shows up. And the way I orient my life is to prove to myself and to other people that I'm uniquely different from others.

[Susie Welch]

Rasanath, what does knowing the Enneagram do for you that like years of therapy does not?

[Rasanath Das]

It explains to you why. Why we have done the things that we have done. Why do we respond to stressful situations the way we do? It actually makes sense of it, because once you Know your type and you really understand. Oh, wow. Actually, I'm not crazy.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah. When I finally found my enneagram type out, first of all, it just explained me to me in a way that just was such a relief. It was so liberating. I thought, I can look back now and I can understand why I did so many things. I can understand why I took certain jobs. I can understand why certain relationships went off the rail. And actually, when I then had all of my kids typed, I mean, I remember just feeling like, oh, I finally understand why Roscoe and I had those years of struggle because he was a peacemaker. And you put an achiever with a peacemaker together, and you get exactly the fights he and I had all the way through high school. Our purposes forward in the becoming you methodology are about you understanding how you're hardwired so that you can look forward, not backwards, but forwards, and try to build the life you were meant to live. And we use it because we are putting it into a big cauldron where we're trying to come up with what your purpose is. How have you seen people learn their Enneagram type and then use it to build a different life for themselves?

[Rasanath Das]

The common ways in which the accurate knowledge of the Enneagram really helps is, number one in your relationships. It really helps you understand why you're showing up the way you are in your relationships and what you can do to take responsibility for your side of it. And that's a huge shift that people have in terms of their own storytelling and narrative.

[Dr. Pam King]

Huge.

[Rasanath Das]

The second thing is in terms of how they want to pursue their careers, there are certain jobs that just come more naturally for certain types than they come for certain other types. There are certain jobs that certain, certain types would really struggle through if they so desperately attached themselves to it.

[Susie Welch]

Can you give an example of that, Ross?

[Dr. Pam King]

Of.

[Susie Welch]

Of a. Of a type, an enneagram type that is more hardwired for certain kind of work?

[Rasanath Das]

Absolutely. When you take a type 7 as an example, the enthusiasts, they are extraordinarily creative and love to come up with new things. Their whole life is oriented around building new experiences for themselves and consequently for other people. Now, if you expect that type to be in a role where they have to a lot of follow through and hold people accountable for what they produce, you might be up for a challenge. Their natural wiring is to move from one thing to another, get it from 0 to 1, and then turn it over to somebody else so that they can do more of the nitty gritty details.

[Susie Welch]

That's why every time I have a student who's a type 7 and at the MBA level, I say, oh, have you considered being a chief of staff or the circumstances CEO of a really big company? Because you go from fire to fire to fire to fire, and you leave the people behind to do the cleanup. There's definitely, at least in my mind, so much information in knowing your personality type, in thinking about what career you're. You're going to pursue happily.

[Rasanath Das]

Right? Exactly. Happily is a. Is a key component of it. You can pursue a career, but you want to be fulfilled and naturally suited for it.

[Susie Welch]

Rasanath, is any type better than the other?

[Rasanath Das]

No, no type is better than any other type. This is something that we say right off the bat on the Enneagram. It's quite possible that when you do find your type, there are things that you might discover about yourself that will be confronting and that might make you conclude, oh, this must be the worst type on the Enneagram. But that is not true. Every type has its set of gifts and its set of shadows.

[Susie Welch]

When I found out that I was an achiever and that I had been so motivated by getting the class okay, and that right in that period, right after I learned this Rasanath, I was offered a job where actually taking the job would have caused a lot of headlines and I would have gotten a front page newspaper story about it. I had just discovered that in my heart of hearts I was born to be a teacher. And probably exactly at the university level where I was. I had never been so happy and fulfilled in a job as I was teaching at nyu. And in the middle of this, I got an offer for a job that would have taken me out of the classroom completely in a totally different role. But my knowledge of my Enneagram type made me say I would only want this job for the first five minutes of it. The next day, the work that was truly filling my soul and stilling my spirit in a way that I had never experienced before would be lost to me. And it was my knowledge of my Enneagram type that saved me from a stupid, boneheaded career mistake that just probably a year pretty previous I would have made. I was 60 years old when this happened.

[Rasanath Das]

By the way, what was the thing or a couple of things that then made you make the decision you made?

[Susie Welch]

I realized what joy my work in the classroom gave me. And I recognized that I made a lot of decisions in my life for sort of the unhealthy things that an achiever does. I mean, an Achiever will run faster, jump higher, will, you know, accommodate others to get validation. I was having a lot of people telling me at that time that Jack would be really proud if I took this job. And I visualized the stories on the front page of the Wall Street Journal, and I thought, oh, wait, wait, wait. That's just the unhealthy achiever in me. It was this knowledge of what the gifts of being an achiever are, because there's some great things about being an achiever and what the shadows were. And I understood that I was giving into the shadows of my personality type.

[Rasanath Das]

Wow.

[Interviewer or Podcast Host Assistant]

Thank you.

[Rasanath Das]

Thank you for sharing that.

[Susie Welch]

Well, thank you for teaching me it, because I got it because of you, Rasanath. I think we're in total agreement that the current tests that exist for the Enneagram are flawed.

[Rasanath Das]

Yes, definitely. Also because the complexity to which the Enneagram is really trying to address and unpack requires a certain basic level of awareness. Yeah. The tests assume that you are aware, although you may not be.

[Susie Welch]

That's right.

[Rasanath Das]

And you can find yourself taking the test multiple times in your life and getting a different enneagram.

[Susie Welch]

Your Enneagram doesn't change through your life, what expression you have of it. You may be creative, then you may be in the controlling or whatever, but your Enneagram type is pretty set from when you're born. My question for you is, our listeners are saying, okay, fine, I want to know what Enneagram type I am, and you're telling me the tests don't really work. What should they do?

[Rasanath Das]

You have to understand the types. Well, the best way in which this has happened very conclusively and accurately is when people have. Have read through the descriptions of types or listened to experts who talk about the types and then go through a process of elimination, or this is definitely not me. And then there will be types that will speak to you a little bit, and there will be types that will speak to you more than a little bit.

[Susie Welch]

Right.

[Rasanath Das]

It requires some honesty. It also requires some inputs from people who have known you very well through your life. Usually they have seen your type before you've seen it yourself.

[Susie Welch]

Like everything good in life, finding out your Enneagram type is hard. It's worth the work and the effort. I'm going to highly recommend all of the podcasts made by Rosanath on UpBuild. You can go to Spotify and find them. They're free and they explain each one of the types. And my students get assigned those podcasts. So go through the process. It's not easy. Don't jump to conclusions. But by all means, I'm going to urge people to find out what their enneagram type is and do the work. Because the upside of this kind of self knowledge is huge.

[Rasanath Das]

Really appreciate it.

[Susie Welch]

All right, take good care. I'll talk to you soon.

[Dr. Pam King]

Everyone wants to thrive, but what is thriving and how do you go about doing it? We explore these questions on the new season of within for the Psychology and Spirituality podcast hosted by me, Dr. Pam King, Developmental psychologist, ordained minister, and Executive Director of the Thrive Center. Each episode with and for bridges psychology and Spiritual Wisdom to offer practical guidance towards spiritual health, wholeness and a life of thriving. Featuring guests like How God Works, host David Deseno and author activist Parker Palmer. Need somewhere to start? Check out the season debut episode with research pioneer Dr. Kristin F on how self compassion is a spiritual practice and a powerful gateway to thriving. It's truly an inspiring conversation. Don't miss out. Follow within four, hosted by Dr. Pam King on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever

[Susie Welch]

you get your podcasts.

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[Susie Welch]

I have to tell you about Ross. I mean, he's so smart. He has taught me so much in the five years that I've known him. Look, look. Your personality is an incredibly important part of understanding your aptitudes. And the Enneagram is one way to understand your personality. And that is my segue to the last assessment we're going to talk about in this episode, which again is about your personality. Everyone thinks they know their personality. You think you know your personality. If I said to you what's your personality? You would immediately answer, oh, I'm kind. I. I'm Loyal. I'm a super good listener. I'm nervous. I mean, you would have a list of words to describe yourself. But the great awakening about personality, and it comes somewhere in our 20s or 30s or 40s, ugh, sometimes later, is that our personality is not just the words we would use to describe ourselves. And sometimes our personality is not at all the words we would use to describe ourself. My friends, our personality is the way the world experiences us. Because what difference does it make if you say, I'm kind, I'm great with people, I'm a good listener, I get things done if nobody else actually experiences you that way. Part of the Becoming youg methodology insists in its Aptitude Excavation section, it insists that you get a report card from the world about how it experiences your personality. And sometimes this is the day of reckoning when I do becoming you, either at NYU or in the wild, as we like to say, sometimes this is a true day of reckoning. People find out their results and they're like, oh, my God, I thought I was this, this, and this. And I am experienced as this, this, and that. And other times it's actually a wonderful day. And you say, oh, I was so worried about how I was experienced and have this incredibly positive experience of me. If you've worked in any corporate setting, you've gone through 360 feedback. This is what we're talking about. We're talking about finding out anonymously how the world experiences you. It's pretty hard to find out. You know, when you find out, you find out how the world is experiencing you. The same way I found out when Dan told me that everyone thought my husband was doing my homework for me, that I was a pretender, an interloper, and I did not belong there. And I was just a nervous little Nelly who was like, did not belong. That's how I was being experienced. Because I was not actually expressing my own narrative. But the same is true. Okay, this was about. About how smart I was. But a lot of times we find out how our personality is being experienced when somebody is slamming the door on us and they're walking out and they're saying, you just don't know how to love, or you've only. You never listen. And somebody says something really mean to us, and it usually is like absolutely brutal and we don't want to hear it. And then we hear it another time and another time, and finally we think, oh, my God, maybe I'm those things. And maybe we endeavor to change. But becoming you insists that, you know who you really are. That's the whole point of the. Of the process. You know, it says, let's figure out your purpose. Your purpose lies at the intersection of your values, your aptitudes, and your interests. And part of those aptitudes, again, are your cognitive. When we talked about that with you science and also with career traits Compass. But Enneagram is about your personality. And a tool we have called the Viewfinder is about finding out how the world experiences you. Now, there's a lot of 360 tools out there, and you may very well have taken one at work, but very few people actually get an anonymous report on how they're experienced by the world. And so what I was looking for was a fast, cheap one, because I think that the real impediment is that usually to take a tool where the world tells you what they really think about you, and it gets given back to you in an aggregated way that protects the anonymity of the people telling you done in a way that's scientific and robust and doesn't kill you when you get it. I looked and looked for this tool. I remember thinking to myself, oh, There must be a 360 feedback tool out there. And I found tools were too expensive, they were too corporate. And so what did I do? Well, well, you know, I decided to create this tool of Becoming youg Labs. And for a long time we called it pi360. We're in the process. It's in beta right now, and you can only use it with a coach. But it's coming very soon, and by the end of the summer, it should be available to everybody. It's based on the premise that success is. Comes down to three different things. Take it or leave it. But this is what I believe I've written about it. It's called the PI Theory of Success. It comes down to the P is for the. The quality of your relationships with people. Are you trustworthy? Are you collaborative? Are you a good listener? Very few people are wildly successful without having the ability to have relationships with people. Yeah, some people are. Maybe they've got a lot of money. You're an incredibly good design. You're very good ideas. Fine. But generally speaking, the quality of your relationships with people actually really matters to your success and comfort in the world. Okay. And so it's tests how you're received, how you're experienced by people in terms of your authenticity and your trustworthiness. Okay. The second is I, and it's for ideas, like how many good ideas you have or how much you help other people give birth to their ideas. This is actually important in terms of how you're experienced. Okay? And it's not a make it or break it, but it's part of the package of things that are important to test, in my opinion. And then there's E for pie. E is execution. This is an incredibly important trait about your personality, which is whether or not you do what you say you're going to do. It can kill you in life if you're big, filled with promises, filled with I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that, I'm going to help you this way, I'm going to help you that way. And you don't actually finish the sentence and put the period and you can be trusted to do what you say you're going to do. You're going to walk the talk. That is a killer in terms of your personality. I mean, I had an uncle, may he rest in peace, complicated guy who was just filled with pipe dreams his entire life and he promised his kids the world and he let them down and time and time again. And he actually had a wonderful gift with people. He was very, very friendly and kind of valuable and people liked his personality. Kind of had a sassy personality. That seems to be a family trait. He had a lot of ideas, but he never got anything done. And so I developed this tool. We now are calling it the Viewfinder. Again, not available quite yet. That takes a look at how the world experiences you in terms of your quality of your relationships with people, the quality of your ideas, or to help other give other people give birth to their ideas and the quality of your execution. The test takes five minutes for people to take. Okay. And generally we suggest people give it to between 20 and 30 people. About 10,000 people have taken it. In beta, you actually answer all the questions about yourself. And so the test also does something that's absolutely essential when it comes to aptitudes. It calculates the gap between how you answered the questions about yourself and how other people answered those questions. And it gives you a self awareness awareness score. And I've watched people get their self awareness scores. And you know what? Everybody, everybody thinks they have high self awareness. You could, you couldn't ask a single person, do you think you have self awareness? No, no, no self awareness. Everyone, I mean by definition, everyone thinks they have high self awareness. But the facts are most people don't. The world will eventually, if you let it, give you your self awareness because you'll get the same message over and over Again. And you'll find, wow, I'm 50 and I'm. I'm super lonely. I don't have any friends. And so the world is telling you something. Okay. Or you'll say, gosh, I just can't keep a job. The world is telling you something. Self awareness is just an unbelievable trait to have. And the more you have of it, the better. So if you don't want to wait for our test, there are other ways. I mean, just Google it or look around. There are other tests that give you feedback from the world about how you're experienced. I do have a hack for this that we use when we're teaching becoming U2 high school students. And that is we ask them to ask 20 people who know them what word immediately pops into their mind when their name pops up on their phone screen. So the phone rings, blah, blah, blah, bling, bling, bling. It's Susie. And we ask people to write down on a little piece of paper anonymously, what word jumps into their mind? I tried that with my own team and you know, it was funny cause it was my own team. So some people wrote down caring. You know, they thought I was gonna figure out who wrote what. Loving. Interested, right? I asked my kids to do it also. But I'll tell you. And we've had a. We had a podcast about this a long time ago. If you've been a long time listener, first of all, thank you so freaking much. You'll remember that my longtime assistant told me the. The truth, which is she wrote down on a piece of paper that when my name pops up on her phone, the word that comes to her mind is machine. You know, I'm not surprised. I was a little bit taken aback. Of course, if you'd asked me to write down the words describing my personality, I would not have listed machine. But it was important for me to know. And that's what's so good about finding out how the world is experiencing you. Because it's information you need to know. And so as you try to build a life that's aligned with who you really are, and sometimes to hear hard messages, like I heard in that classroom with Dan, a very hard message that I was not telling my own story, and I was not aware of how the world was experiencing me. I was not aware of my own aptitudes in a way that I could help people understand what they were, let alone let myself know what they were. That's it. Okay. That's where we were. We're sort of end. At the end of the four tests just to review. We talked about Youscience last week. That's your cognitive aptitudes. We focused in on five of them, by the way. Then we talked about today the career traits Compass, which finds out and helps you understand where you are in the continuum from individual contributor to leader. We heard from Ras Nath Das about the Enneagram, the personality type indicator. And if you're not not aware of what your Enneagram is, I urge you to go down that rabbit hole. YouTube is a good place to start. Good lord. See you in five years. I mean, there's so much out there about Enneagram and it's dangerous. Okay, if you ever break your leg, lay down with your iPad and just start looking into Enneagram. And then we talked about the tool called the viewfinder, but it could be any360 tool after you do this kind of assessment of yourself. And I'm sorry, you can't just name your aptitudes. That's my assertion with this whole podcast. See theories. The whole point is that we got to do the work. We got to do the work to know what our aptitudes are. It's just like values. We spend a lot of time on this podcast talking about figuring out what your values are. Luckily, there's the values bridge. 22 minutes. You'll know what your values are, but then you got to endeavor to really understand them in their details and really, really get into and figure out what it's all about. Aptitudes at work. I mean, in, in the becoming you methodology. When I teach it at nyu, we spend almost three weeks looking at our aptitudes, taking a ton of. Of tests and classes are three hours. So we're talking about 12 hours to get to the bottom of what all of our aptitudes are. Guess what? I think it's just so worth the time. Okay, so worth the time. Because if you want to live a purposeful life, you have to have the information to help you get there. It's not a guess, it's not easy, but it's so worth it because you cannot let the dans of the world define you. You must have the facts to define yourself. So I promised you since the very beginning that I was going to tell you the epilogue about Dan. As I've told this story in my class, people are always like, you know, give us Dan's number. We'd like to be in touch with him. But I want to tell you the truth. I have followed Dan's life from afar through the alumni bulletin because he was a person of interest to me, we'll put it that way. I mean, he kicked my butt and changed a lot of things for me. And again, I'm grateful to him. Not surprisingly, Dan immediately went into finding finance. Famous firm, moved up the ladder, watched him get promoted over the years, watched him with curiosity. And one thing that I watched was him having children. And he had four. And he had four daughters. I watched his daughters, one by one by one by one, four of them go into finance. I did not see that coming, right, because here's a person who. A dad who presumed that I could not possibly be doing the finance if I found Anne on the street. I wonder if he'd even remember this story. Or maybe he would deny it. I don't know. I'm sure he's a decent guy. There's no reason to believe he's a bad person. He said a shitty thing to be. I mean, okay, he did. He said a mean thing. But he must believe his daughters had the full capabilities, the full aptitudes to go into finance. Otherwise he would have stopped them. Parents do that. And he watched and probably cheered as his daughters went into finance. And I bet that he would never, ever, ever assume that any of them had anybody doing their homework. I think Dan learned about aptitudes the long, hard way, maybe that he probably today understands aptitudes because he's watched his own daughters who clearly had the aptitudes to go into finance. Right. Finance is cruel. It gets you right out if you're not performing. And I think that this is a wonderful epilogue to the story that whatever he said, he would never say again. I think that he was enlightened, that his daughters, who, when they went into finance, were the age I was when he said that to me, that they taught him not to assume anything about what people were and were not good at based on gender or age or whatever experience. I think they taught him the lesson. So I'm grateful to those young women. I hope they thrive and kick butt in finance. I bet they are. So the ending of this story is kind of a beautiful one in a way. I mean, he didn't get in trouble, he didn't get called out, he didn't get fired for being a jerk, any of that stuff. He has had a great career. He's probably approaching retirement now, but he had four daughters who, at the age I was when this thing happened, all ended up being great at finance. Power to them and their aptitudes. So that's where I'm gonna leave this. Leave this. Leave this with gratitude, actually, for Dan, who may not even remember the thing that happened. But it did happen, and it left a mark on me. A very good one and a very important one. And I hope it leaves the same kind of conviction with you that you have to know your aptitudes, you have to claim them, and then, best of all, you have to live them. Live them right along with your values and your interests. All three at once.

[Genius Brand Representative]

Once.

[Susie Welch]

Because then and only then, with God as my witness, you will never be hungry for your purpose again. All right, well, thank you for staying with me for these three episodes in this series. And by the way, if you like this series, and only if you liked it, please leave a comment and subscribe to this podcast. It really, really helps. Appreciate you. I'm Susie Welch. This is becoming you. I'll see you you next week.

[Interviewer or Podcast Host Assistant]

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