Grandma Joy

Summary

Before We Go: Episode Summary – "Grandma Joy"

Released on October 15, 2024

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Introduction

In the poignant episode titled "Grandma Joy," Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter delves deep into her family's emotional journey through illness, loss, and the intricate dynamics that unfold when confronting mortality. This episode offers listeners an intimate look into Shoshana's personal experiences, enriched by conversations with her sister Arielle and insights from medical professionals.

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Family Background and Early Memories

Dr. Ungerleiter opens the episode by reminiscing about her childhood, highlighting her father's penchant for documenting every moment on video. She shares tender memories of her sister Arielle, showcasing the closeness and unique bond they share.

Shoshana Ungerleiter [00:10]: "I'm less than a year old in this video and the man holding the camera is my dad."

The siblings reflect on their upbringing as Jewish hippies in Oregon, often feeling isolated in their predominantly non-Jewish schools. This sense of being the "only Jewish kids" laid the foundation for a tightly-knit extended family community.

Arielle [03:24]: "It was very isolating and I don't think I really knew until I was an adult or now, raising my kids with other Jewish kids within their school what it means to have that sense of community."

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Grandma Joy's Illness and Passing

The narrative takes a somber turn as Shoshana recounts the diagnosis of her beloved grandmother, Joy. At 13, she grapples with the reality of Grandma Joy's pancreatic cancer, a diagnosis that starkly contrasts with the vibrant, healthy image she held of her grandmother.

Shoshana Ungerleiter [09:56]: "At 13, I remember feeling shocked that such a vibrant, healthy and independent person could be so ill."

Despite the distance, Shoshana and Arielle had cherished summers in Martha's Vineyard and frequent visits during Passover. Grandma Joy's spirited personality left an indelible mark on them, characterized by her sophisticated yet approachable style and zest for life.

Arielle [10:46]: "She would drink a really stiff cocktail and classical music would be playing in the background, which I always thought was so weird."

Grandma Joy's passing had a profound impact on the family, casting a "big cloud" over their lives and setting the stage for subsequent challenges.

Arielle [14:42]: "It really just felt like there was a big cloud over our family. And so it felt like it kind of kicked off a pretty, not so great time in our family's lives."

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Father's Cancer Diagnosis and Genetic Testing

A few years after Grandma Joy's death, Shoshana's father, Steven Ungerleiter, was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer—the same ailment that took Grandma Joy's life. This development was especially daunting given the family's genetic predisposition to BRCA mutations, which heightened the risk for both Shoshana and Arielle.

Shoshana Ungerleiter [21:24]: "And I thought there was at least one other first degree relative of his who had a malignancy that could be associated with a genetic predisposition."

Initially hesitant to inform Arielle, Shoshana felt the weight of their father's fear and the looming threat of cancer within the family lineage.

Arielle [17:09]: "I talked to dad, he said, well, we're not exactly sure. Sure what's going on. He kind of wanted to sugarcoat it, I think, for me and probably for himself."

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Insights from Medical Oncologist Ari Baron

A pivotal moment in the episode is Shoshana's consultation with Dr. Ari Baron, a medical oncologist and hematologist. Dr. Baron emphasizes the critical importance of BRCA mutation testing, not only for tailored treatment options but also for the broader implications it holds for the entire family.

Shoshana Ungerleiter [22:10]: "I can't give you an exact number, but I'll just say that it's been very difficult to make any advances in the treatment of pancreatic cancer."

Dr. Baron explains how BRCA-positive pancreatic cancers can respond to new targeted therapies, such as PARP inhibitors and immunotherapy, offering extended survival rates and improved quality of life for patients.

Ari Baron [23:21]: "What we're seeing now is that treatment is not based just on the primary site of the cancer, but rather on the genetic mutation profile, including BRCA."

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Impact on the Family and Future Implications

The revelation of her father's BRCA mutations necessitated that Shoshana and Arielle undergo genetic testing, unveiling a 50% probability of each sister carrying the mutation. This knowledge empowers them to take proactive measures in managing their health risks and underscores the ripple effect genetic information has on future generations.

Shoshana Ungerleiter [25:20]: "If my father tested positive for a BRCA2 mutation, Ariel and I would each have a 50% chance of testing positive."

Arielle candidly shares her surprise at not having undergone genetic testing earlier, highlighting a common oversight even among those with medical backgrounds.

Arielle [27:04]: "I know."

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Conclusion

"Grandma Joy" serves as a heartfelt exploration of family, resilience, and the evolving landscape of medical science in the face of genetic predispositions. Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter masterfully intertwines personal narratives with professional insights, offering listeners both emotional depth and informative content. The episode underscores the importance of genetic testing, not just for individual health, but for the collective well-being of families navigating similar challenges.

Listeners are left reflecting on their own perceptions of mortality, the bonds that sustain us, and the advancements in medicine that offer new hope in the relentless fight against cancer.

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Notable Quotes

• Shoshana Ungerleiter [00:10]: "I'm less than a year old in this video and the man holding the camera is my dad."

• Arielle [03:24]: "It was very isolating and I don't think I really knew until I was an adult or now, raising my kids with other Jewish kids within their school what it means to have that sense of community."

• Shoshana Ungerleiter [09:56]: "At 13, I remember feeling shocked that such a vibrant, healthy and independent person could be so ill."

• Arielle [14:42]: "It really just felt like there was a big cloud over our family. And so it felt like it kind of kicked off a pretty, not so great time in our family's lives."

• Ari Baron [23:21]: "What we're seeing now is that treatment is not based just on the primary site of the cancer, but rather on the genetic mutation profile, including BRCA."

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Connect with Before We Go

For more behind-the-scenes content and to join the ongoing conversation, follow @beforewegopodcast on Instagram.

Transcript

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Shoshana. Shoshana.

[Arielle]

Good morning.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Is it on?

[Arielle]

Yeah. Remember, the audio is going so.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Hi, pumpkin. I'm less than a year old in this video and the man holding the camera is my dad.

[Arielle]

There's daddy. Say hello.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Dad.

[Arielle]

What's that weird black thing you have in your room? Hi, Shoshi.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Hi, Shoshi. Shushi.

[Ari Baron]

We're rolling it.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

A few years later, my sister came along. Shawna, have you been taking care of your baby sister?

[Arielle]

Yep. What did you do with her this morning?

[Ari Baron]

Played on.

[Arielle]

I played and played on it.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Play da da.

[Arielle]

Play da da da. Uh huh.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

My dad filmed everything. And I mean everything.

[Arielle]

You are my sunshine, my only sunshine. You keep me happy when skies are gray.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

You never know, dear how much I love ya. Please don't take my sun away. So I don't know if you know this, but I'm having all the videotapes from our childhood digitized.

[Arielle]

No, they should live on VHS forever to never be seen again.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

That's my younger bossier sister, Arielle.

[Arielle]

I don't necessarily prefer the word bossy, but I think maybe assertive was the word you were looking for.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Arielle and I hadn't seen these tapes for decades, but we had a pretty good idea of what we'd find. Sing, Sing.

[Arielle]

Who do we appreciate?

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Lakers. Lakers.

[Arielle]

Yay, Lakers.

[Ari Baron]

All right.

[Arielle]

Two kids who don't really look a lot alike. A lot of performances of, like me on stage or at gymnastics meets or you playing basketball or winning some academic compet.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

The Underliner cousins doing 5 foot 2 1.

[Arielle]

Maybe some nudes of our wild hippie parents who would have naked hot tub parties with the rabbi.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

I dug up these old family videos because I wanted to find memories of my father. But all I found were glimpses of the man behind the camera. A director of sorts, sometimes calling out cues to Ariel and me.

[Arielle]

Shawna, how about a moonwalk? He was an interesting, hard to pin down character because I think he had a lot of different identities. You know, on the one hand, he was very serious at times and I always was like a little bit afraid of him. He was also very fun loving and free spirited and athletic. He spent a lot of time stretching for whatever. I mean, I always remember him sitting on the living room floor in that, like sunken living room on that cushy wool carpet, like, doing his stretches in his running shorts. And I could never figure out if he was actually going to run or had just come back from running or was gonna even do anything athletic.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

My parents were both Jewish, but they were also total hippies. Who wanted to escape everything that they'd grown up around. So in the 1970s, they moved to the country outside of Eugene, Oregon. Arielle and I were always the only Jewish kids in our schools.

[Arielle]

It was very isolating and I don't think I really knew until I was an adult or now, raising my kids with other Jewish kids within their school what it means to have that sense of community.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Sometimes other kids would ask us really bizarre questions.

[Arielle]

So what does that mean? Because my dad said that if you were Jewish, you would have horns like the devil coming out of your head. I remember a kid asking me that on the school bus once and just being so confused.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

There were only a small handful of Jewish families in the area.

[Arielle]

There were probably three times as many Jewish kids in my school as yours. But that meant there was There were two in your school and six in all of mine.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

That's Melissa Sheinfeld. We've been friends for as long as either of us can remember. Our moms met first.

[Arielle]

My mom was pregnant with me and your mom was pregnant with Arielle. And they were both at the synagogue, like extremely pregnant.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

And so we spent a lot of time together.

[Arielle]

They formed this chosen family in Eugene, Oregon. And we really grew up together through all of the Jewish holidays and traditions and so many family things.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

And so I asked Melissa for her memories of my dad.

[Arielle]

My favoritest, fondest memory. Your dad used to happily drive the three of us, you, your sister and me, to Mount Bachelor to go downhill skiing. Which now as a parent I understand was like kind of a big deal. That one parent just takes all the kids.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

We'd all pile into my dad's Land Cruiser.

[Arielle]

And then he always, most importantly, had a round hairbrush in the car, which he would point towards each of us when Michael Jackson's Heal the world would come on, probably over and over again. And we all sang at the top of your lungs with your dad to Michael Jackson's folks. My memory of it is being so happy and having such a great time. Just deep love from your dad on that.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

But then when I was 14, something happened that altered our lives. Did dad change after Grandma Joy died and in what ways?

[Arielle]

I think he did change a lot. Going from being kind of this upbeat, positive, free flowing guy to things being, like, much more serious. I think he carried a lot more anger.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

And the story of how our Grandma Joy died is important to understanding how my father reacted to his cancer diagnosis and all the things that happened next. I'm Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter and this is Before We Go episode two grandma Joy hey there, it's Shoshana. I'd love for you to join me for this year's EndWell forum on November 22nd. It's streaming live and it's free to register. EndWell is a one of a kind gathering that's all about inspiration, connection and finding new ways to live fully, even in the face of life's biggest challenges. This isn't just an event about end of life. It's about affirming what matters most in how we all live. You'll hear from actors, artists, authors, healthcare innovators and spiritual leaders all sharing heartfelt stories and perspectives that lift us up and invite us to rethink how we connect, love and leave a lasting impact. For those who join, this experience is often life changing. Past participants have left inspired with new ideas, deep connections, and a sense of purpose that they've carried back into their lives and communities. So if you're looking for something meaningful that reminds you what's possible, register now for the free [e-mail] I'd love for you to be a part of it. This episode is brought to you by Allstate. Some people just know they could save hundreds on car insurance by checking Allstate First. Like, you know, to check the date of the big game first before you accidentally buy tickets on your 20th wedding anniversary and have to spend the next 20 years of your marriage making up for it. Yeah, checking first is smart. So check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate Savings. Vary terms apply. Allstate Fire and Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates Northbrook, Illinois we were sitting in the living room and it was early evening and my dad, it just seemed like something was off with him and he said, you know, we need to sit down and have a family meeting. And my dad was a psychologist, so we actually had a fair amount of family meetings, so I didn't think anything of this one. I remember him just really slowly and sort of carefully sharing with us that Grandma Joy was sick, that she had cancer. Grandma Joy had been diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, the same cancer that my dad would later develop. I was 13. I. I don't think I really had a sense of what that meant. This was the first person in my life that I knew really well that I was close to that was ill. Our Grandma Joy lived in New York and in Israel. She was a remarkable woman. She studied archeology and was an author. She'd Been the curator and then the director of the Jewish Museum in Manhattan. And even though we live 3,000 miles away from her closer home, we still got to see her quite a bit.

[Arielle]

We would go to Martha's Vineyard in the summertime and typically see her sitting.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

There on these warm summer nights in this little screened in porch that she had. She would drink a really stiff cocktail and classical music would be playing in the background, which I always thought was so weird.

[Arielle]

And she would always come to Oregon for Passover with these, like, flourless chocolate cakes wrapped in tinfoil in her carry on. She'd come for a week. So, like, why don't we bake that in Oregon? In retrospect, it makes no sense to fly with baked goods in your carry on. But that was her shtick. I remember her laugh. She had a great laugh and she had like a fabulous sense of style. But she didn't dress like posh, like there was no Chanel involved.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

She was so healthy. She swam every day. She played tennis all the time. She traveled the world.

[Arielle]

We would get photos of her and like Yasser Arafat at some summit, you know, And I'd be like, who's that guy? He looks interesting.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

At 13. I remember feeling shocked that such a vibrant, healthy and independent person could be so ill. And then our dad presented Arielle and I with a choice. I'm going to fly out to visit her and help her and take her to some of her appointments. And this might be the last time that you get to see her and maybe say goodbye. We just don't know because she's very sick now. And that totally freaked me out. The idea of getting on a plane and taking off school and then going to see her so sick. When I had these memories of her being so, so healthy, it was just too much for me. I decided not to go. Certainly the person I am now would have gone, but that isn't who I was then. I never changed my mind about going to see Grandma Joy, but Arielle went.

[Arielle]

So my Bat Mitzvah was happening around this time. And I remember there being this big, like, hope that she would be able to come to my Bat Mitzvah. And I think part of that was me, but I also think part of it was maybe mom and dad, like, there's this date in the future and we hope she makes it to that date. I think when it was clear that she wasn't going to make it, we went to New York. And I remember her being in bed at their. At the house dad grew up in. I Remember them asking me to recite my haftarah portion from my Bat Mitzvah to Grandma Joy while she was in bed. And that that was super meaningful to her. And I didn't really understand that I wouldn't see her again.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

By the time our dad brought his video camera to Ariel's Bat Mitzvah rehearsal, my Grandma Joy was already gone. She eventually opted for hospice, where she got to spend time at home. And people, many, many people from all over the world, from all of her travels, came to visit her. She got to die in her own bed in her own home, which is what she wanted. And Grandma Joy's death had a big impact on my family.

[Arielle]

I think she was the first person that I was close with who died. And I just remember feeling so sad.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

I don't remember so much the burial site, but I do remember going back to her house, this beautiful home outside of New York City, and it being just really cold, like there wasn't much life left in the house.

[Arielle]

There were so many people there, so many people we had never met before. She was this very important person to a lot of people, a lot of people who looked important.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

It felt heavy. And after Grandma Joy died, things changed.

[Arielle]

It really just felt like there was a big cloud over our family. And so it felt like it kind of kicked off a pretty, not so great time in our family's lives.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

And then just a few years later, my dad's brother, our Uncle Peter, died of cancer. He was 50. And after that, my dad was terrified of getting cancer himself. Like, he talked about it a lot. Like it was almost as if he kind of expected it to happen to him one day. My dad had lived through the death of his dad, my grandpa Sam, at a young age, then the deaths of his mother and brother, both from cancer. And now he was diagnosed with the same cancer that took his mother. She was diagnosed with a pretty late stage. I believe it was probably stage three. Now looking back, she underwent a huge surgery called a Whipple. They open up the abdomen and try to take out a lot of the cancer, which was in and around her pancreas, which is a really central part of the body, around lots of blood vessels and other organs. It's very intense. The recovery is lengthy and painful. And then she started chemotherapy. And according to my dad, it was really, really tough. Like most pancreatic cancers, my dad's was caught too late for surgery, and he was facing the same type of chemotherapy that his mother had been treated with. The traditional chemo that we give is quite Toxic to the entire body. We haven't made a lot of advances, unfortunately, in that kind of treatment. You're listening to before we go. I'm Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter. We'll be right back. When my dad first told me about the mass on his pancreas, he asked me not to tell Ariel. But eventually I had to, because when.

[Arielle]

I talked to dad, he said, well, we're not exactly sure. Sure what's going on. He kind of wanted to sugarcoat it, I think, for me and probably for himself. My family, my husband and two kids, we were traveling on a rafting trip off the grid in Oregon, which was awesome, but also, you come back to, like, a million missed calls and text messages. And I think you called me and said that dad has been kind of not really open about. He's been having some medical challenges, and over the course of the last few months, he's been trying to get a diagnosis, and we've now kind of come to a conclusion that we're pretty sure it's pancreatic cancer.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

When my dad finally talked to Ariel about it, he didn't want her to worry.

[Arielle]

He said, you know, Shoshi has been helping me a ton to get into the right doctors.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

We contacted pretty much every expert on the west coast, at least in pancreatic cancer, about what to do. And we were lucky that they took our phone calls and said they were willing to kind of weigh in. And during that first appointment with a specialist, I learned something that was really surprising. So I immediately call dead. What do you remember from that call? I actually, like, remember a lot because it was so confusing.

[Ari Baron]

You said, I have good news that's.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Also bad news, but maybe good news. And I can't remember how you said it, but you're like, I think it's bad news for me, but good news for my dad. But maybe it's good news for me. And I'm like, can you tell me the news, please? I'm so.

[Ari Baron]

I can't track this.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Can you just let me know? He said, well, based on your family history, this cancer might be genetically linked. Have you ever been tested for the BRCA mutation? Brca? I knew what BRCA was, right? The mutation that's named after breast cancer. And I looked at him and said, what do you mean, pancreatic cancer? You know, I always thought that was just related to breast and ovarian cancer. He said, actually, no. We now know that BRCA1 and BRCA2 are associated with pancreatic cancer, melanoma, prostate cancer, and the specialist told us that a BRCA diagnosis might be really good news for my dad. Several of his patients with BRCA mutated pancreatic cancers were taking a brand new approved therapy that was extending their life by many months and for some, many, many years. And my jaw like dropped to the floor. Who are you and what do you do?

[Ari Baron]

My name is Ari Baron and I'm a medical oncologist and hematologist.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

And how and when did we meet?

[Ari Baron]

When you were a resident?

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Yeah, yeah, that's right. And what do you remember of the day that I brought my dad to see you?

[Ari Baron]

Your dad was sort of warm, high powered, reminded me a bit of my father. I was moved that you were advocating for him and also sort of felt for you. It is difficult to negotiate the role of daughter versus the role of care provider. When those boundaries blurred, it can be particularly painful. So I sort of had compassion for you at the same time.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

What was it about my dad's medical history that stood out to you and made you suggest the BRCA mutation testing?

[Ari Baron]

Well, a couple of things. He had pancreatic cancer, and I knew he was Ashkenazi Jewish. As a context, about 1 in 40.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Ashkenazi Jews have a BRCA mutation. That's around 10 times the number that's found in the general population.

[Ari Baron]

And I thought there was at least one other first degree relative of his who had a malignancy that could be associated with a genetic predisposition.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Even with all those factors, there was a good chance that my father's cancer was not BRCA related.

[Ari Baron]

About 5% or so of pancreatic cancer in the United States is thought to be associated with BRCA or BRCA like mutations. So it's not commonly associated. But even though it's relatively rare, you really can't miss it because it does influence the care that we provide to the affected individual.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

And how much better is a patient's prognosis if their cancer turns out to be BRCA mutation related?

[Ari Baron]

I can't give you an exact number, but I'll just say that it's been very difficult to make any advances in the treatment of pancreatic cancer. Most people with pancreatic cancer never have potentially curable surgery. So by the time pancreatic cancer is discovered, usually it is advanced to the point where it's not amenable to surgery. And without surgery, there is no cure. And that's because the pancreas drapes over the aorta in a major branch of the aorta called the celiac axis that provides Blood to all of the intestines and other vital organs in your abdomen. Given that most people don't have surgery, it becomes a chronic disease where you're managing it with radiation and chemotherapies and other agents. There are only a handful of drugs that really play a role, maybe five chemotherapy drugs that work in pancreatic cancer. And we combine them in these doublets or triplets to give people more time and to mitigate symptoms. But pretty quickly, you run out of those options.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

But recently, that started to shift.

[Ari Baron]

What we're seeing now is that treatment is not based just on the primary site of the cancer, but rather on the genetic mutation profile, including brca. And being brca positive opens the door to respond potentially to PARP inhibitors. Parp? PARP inhibitors. It's an oral drug. It's well tolerated. There's a number of them on the market after chemotherapy. One goes on a PARP inhibitor as quote, maintenance. That keeps the disease in remission for longer, and people do live longer because of it.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

So now, instead of maybe only having radiation and a handful of traditional chemotherapy drugs to choose from, Specialists have new options for treating some pancreatic cancers.

[Ari Baron]

I often say to my patients, there's sort of three pots of treatment that we can choose from. Chemotherapies, targeted therapies, and PARP inhibitors are an example of targeted therapies. And then finally, immunotherapy. Immunotherapy has definitely captured all of our imaginations, because the idea of your own immune system fighting cancer for you is fabulous and very compelling. And pancreatic cancer, in the absence of brca mutations, doesn't respond to immunotherapy. But pancreatic cancer, in the context of brca does respond to immunotherapy. So again, it opens a door to a potential line of therapy that otherwise is not there. You know, median survival with chemotherapy alone is about 11 months. When you start to add some of these other lines of therapy, you, get more time, which is what it's all about, More time and more quality time. I have people in my clinic who are alive five, six, seven years into therapy with either PARP inhibitors or immunotherapy. And so for them, it made all the difference in the world.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

So even though only about 5% of pancreatic cancer is BRCA related, It's still really important to test.

[Ari Baron]

You don't want to miss that opportunity for that person. But also, of course, it has a ripple effect throughout the family.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

If my father tested positive for a BRCA2 mutation, Ariel and I would each have a 50% chance of testing positive 2. And a positive diagnosis for either of us would mean a higher risk of developing certain cancers like breast and ovarian cancer. This knowledge would allow us to take proactive steps like increased surveillance, lifestyle changes, or even preventative surgeries to manage our risk. And it would have implications for the health of future generations. My niece and nephew, as they would someday need to consider genetic counseling and testing.

[Ari Baron]

So you really must be aware and do the testing.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

As soon as Dr. Barron recommended it, my dad got tested for genetic mutations that might have contributed to his cancer. It took several weeks for the test to come back, which did in fact show that he actually had two genetic mutations, BRCA and another one, and that he would be eligible for this new treatment. But what it also meant was that I needed to get tested, and so did my sister. Even outside of the pancreatic cancer and other cancers in the family, I actually should have been tested before. Because we're of Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry, some guidelines suggest that all Ashkenazi Jews get tested for BRCA mutations.

[Ari Baron]

Wow. Yeah, I didn't know that either.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

And it appears that I'm not the only one who missed that memo. Well, that's us.

[Ari Baron]

And I haven't gotten genetic tested.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Are you?

[Arielle]

I know.

[Ari Baron]

I'm behind the time.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

You gotta do it.

[Ari Baron]

This is what I'm saying.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

I know.

[Ari Baron]

Lord. Does it matter if I'm a quarter Sephardic? Probably not.

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

I don't know. Get tested anyway. This was something that I never learned in medical school, which wasn't actually that long ago. But as it turns out, there's a lot of important things that we don't learn in medical school. Do you remember learning anything about death and dying or even palliative care in med school? I don't.

[Arielle]

Do you remember?

[Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Did we have a lot of curriculum in med school? I mean, I don't remember much. I truly don't remember. I think we maybe had one lecture, but honestly, it didn't. Stick with me. That's next time on Before We Go. Before We Go is a production of Podcast Nation and me. Our production team includes Karen Given, Abby Williams, and Madison Britt. Our story editor is Lacey Roberts. Original music by Edward Ayton. I'm Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter. If you like what you've heard, please tell a friend. You can also leave us a review on your favorite podcast app. It helps people who need us find the show. And if you'd like to see photos and videos and connect with other Before We Go listeners Visit us on Instagram at Before We Go Podcast.