Nikki Boyer Learns to Let Go

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Nikki Boyer Learns to Let Go"

Podcast: Before We Go
Host: Dr. Shoshana Ungerleider
Guest: Nikki Boyer (with guest psychologist Dr. Jessica Zucker)
Release Date: November 13, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this deeply personal and moving episode, Dr. Shoshana Ungerleider sits down with Nikki Boyer, host and creator of the acclaimed podcast Dying for Sex, to explore Nikki’s journey through infertility, pregnancy loss, and the intertwined griefs of losing her best friend, Molly. Through honest conversation, Nikki shares the heartbreak and ultimate acceptance that shaped her life's path, highlighting the redemptive power of friendship, love, and self-discovery. Psychologist Dr. Jessica Zucker lends her expertise in pregnancy loss, shame, and grief, providing both context and comfort.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Nikki’s Journey with Pregnancy Loss

• First Pregnancy & Loss
  • Nikki recalls the day she told her mother she was pregnant (01:39). The pregnancy felt “spiritual and miraculous” (01:41) but ended in miscarriage after less than a month, the first of many such losses.
• Multiple Miscarriages
  • Over four years, Nikki experienced six miscarriages, moving from initial grief to numbness as the losses accumulated. “I think I was naive enough to think, well, oh, this will work, right? Cause what's the other side of that? I hadn't even really thought of that as an option.” – Nikki (11:05)
• Fertility Treatments
  • After several miscarriages, Nikki and her husband Tommy embarked on an arduous and expensive IVF journey.
    • Despite physical and emotional tolls, as well as financial costs (“three failed IVFs was like purchasing a car, a very expensive car” – Nikki, 37:34), Nikki felt compelled to keep trying until she was “completely tapped out” (37:58).
    • The process included moments of hope (“I did hear the wonderful compliment that I had the ovaries of a 25-year-old” – Nikki, 12:41) and devastating disappointment when “there were no viable embryos out of all of those. And I was so crushed…” (13:25)
• The Tipping Point
  • After her sixth miscarriage, Nikki reached clarity that her journey to parenthood was over:
    • “I was in my bathtub…it was filled with blood. I was just sitting there, trying to get some relief…And I kept thinking, like, why am I fighting so hard for this? …and I got really clear with my husband. I was like, that's what I need to focus my love and attention on.” – Nikki (19:50)

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2. The Power of Friendship: Nikki and Molly

• Mutual Support During Difficult Times
  • While Nikki was struggling to create life, Molly was facing terminal cancer. The two women’s parallel journeys became the heart of Dying for Sex, their podcast (“Molly always said, as I've been fighting to save my life, you have been fighting to create a life.” – Nikki, 06:30).
  • Molly’s response to Nikki’s journey was characterized by deep presence and empathy: “She was incredibly engaged and understanding…man, she leaned in hard and was like, what time’s your appointment?...She understood the ups and downs of health stuff, unlike, really anybody else.” – Nikki (11:52)
  • They often used dark humor to cope with their situations (“I'm so sorry. I'm a little tied up right now. I'm in a diaper. And she was like, blah, blah, blah, excuses, excuses...” – Nikki, 15:16)
• Lessons from Molly’s Facing of Mortality
  • Nikki learned from Molly’s vulnerability: “Watching her be so vulnerable…she just didn’t give any Fs, and I loved that. Watching her do that in those last, you know, months of her life, I was like, God, I don't want to wait. That I don't want to wait. Just say it…” – Nikki (05:35)
  • After Molly’s passing, Nikki felt her continued presence: “I think she is, actually. …I could feel her. …She really is your soulmate.” – Nikki (40:34)

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3. The Psychological Toll of Infertility and Loss

• Obsessive Drive & Loneliness
  • Nikki describes being “so driven, mildly obsessed with, like, getting through it. No, let me rephrase that. I wanted to get over it. And I knew over it just meant, let's have another pregnancy.” (16:29)
  • Despite her husband’s support, Nikki experienced profound isolation (“It always still felt like I was on an island, you know?” – Nikki, 14:35)
• Grief and Acceptance
  • Acceptance wasn’t immediate, but came from deep self-inquiry: “What is this really about?...I got really clear…I was like, that's what I need to focus my love and attention on.” (19:50)
  • On living with the outcome: “It’s like a sliver of the pie...But I think this grief is about the sadness of what I had to go through and the deep, like, reconciliation that I had to come to. But it's not so much about not getting a child, and I'm clear about that. I feel at peace with it.” (35:54)

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4. Expert Perspective: Dr. Jessica Zucker on Pregnancy Loss and Breaking the Silence

• Personal and Professional Wisdom
  • Dr. Zucker shares her personal experience with miscarriage (“16 weeks into my second pregnancy, I had a miscarriage. While I was home by myself, I had to cut the umbilical cord. …I ended up undergoing an unmedicated DNC.” – Dr. Zucker, 26:36)
  • She advocates for dismantling silence and shame around pregnancy loss (“I worry that too many women are feeling alone when they don’t have to. …If we can get people talking …maybe people will feel less badly about themselves or less afraid, to be honest.” – Dr. Zucker, 32:54)
• What Helps Someone Who’s Grieving?
  • “All we need to say is, I'm here for you. I care about you. If you want to talk about your situation, your story, your pain, I want to listen.” – Dr. Zucker (30:22)
  • She describes the compounded anxiety of repeated loss: “You're just lodged into a whole other field of feelings and fear and sometimes isolation, because you don’t really know who’s going to get it...” (31:34)

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5. Redefining Happiness and Moving Forward

• Reconstructing a Life of Meaning Without Motherhood
  • Nikki shares how she moved from anguish to peace: “I had to get really clear with myself of what does happiness and success and love and relationship look like without being a mother. And I got to a place where, like, I'm really—like, I'm really okay with it.” (36:54)
  • On regrets: “I mean, I'd love my thousands of dollars back. …But in all honesty…I did it as long and as much as I could until I tapped out, so I don't really have any regrets. And would I do it again? Yeah, probably.” (37:28)
  • Central to her healing was her relationship: “That was the moment that shifted in me where I was like, I think this is the—I think this is the end of the road.” (21:54)

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6. The Legacy of Friendship: Molly’s Continued Influence

• The episode closes with reflections on Molly’s enduring presence in Nikki’s life and marriage (“After we had our wedding…he said to me, gosh, Molly’s everywhere. …She really is your soulmate.” – Nikki, 40:34)
• Nikki’s husband, Tommy, is described as “so awesome…he’s my baby” (41:13), a reminder that love and meaning persist even as dreams shift shape.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Recurrent Loss and Determination:
  • “I see how women get obsessed with this and how it becomes, like, just who you are and you lose sight of everything else that's going on in your life.” – Nikki (16:29)
• On Molly’s Impact:
  • “Watching her be so vulnerable and open. …she just didn't give any Fs, and I loved that.” – Nikki (05:35)
• On Letting Go:
  • “That's my baby. That's what I have to focus on, that relationship. Because he's the reason I wanted to have a baby.” – Nikki (20:25)
• On Redefining Self and Happiness:
  • “I had to get really clear with myself of what does happiness and success and love and relationship look like without being a mother. And I got to a place where, like, I'm really—like, I'm really okay with it.” – Nikki (36:54)
• On What Helps Someone Grieving Loss:
  • “All we need to say is, I'm here for you. I care about you. If you want to talk about your situation, your story, your pain, I want to listen.” – Dr. Jessica Zucker (30:22)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Nikki’s first experience with pregnancy and loss: 01:39–02:08
• Exploring infertility and recurrent miscarriage: 02:40–06:30
• Creating Dying for Sex & supporting Molly through terminal cancer: 04:11–06:30
• Fertility treatments and their toll: 09:53–16:29
• Molly and Nikki’s friendship during parallel struggles: 11:52–15:16
• Nikki’s breaking point and moment of acceptance: 19:50–21:54
• Dr. Jessica Zucker’s personal story and advice: 26:36–32:54
• Grieving and redefining identity after loss: 35:54–36:58
• Acceptance, regrets, and advice to others: 37:28–39:30
• Legacy and Molly’s ongoing influence: 40:34–41:42

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Tone & Style

The conversation maintains a candid, vulnerable, and often humorous tone despite the gravity of its subject matter, reflecting Nikki’s and Molly’s coping mechanisms. Dr. Ungerleider provides gentle, empathetic guidance throughout, and Dr. Zucker’s contributions ground the discussion in psychological expertise and compassion.

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Conclusion

“Nikki Boyer Learns to Let Go” bravely explores the messy intersections of hope, grief, friendship, and acceptance. Through Nikki’s story and Dr. Zucker’s insights, listeners are invited to consider what it means to let go of deeply held dreams, how to support those in profound pain, and how love—of friends, partners, and self—can light a path through unimaginable loss.

Transcript

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[Nikki Boyer]

The first pregnancy felt like spiritual and miraculous and hearing the heartbeat. And I actually got pregnant on accident, which I'm like, how at 34, 35, do you accidentally get pregnant? Like, come on girl, figure this out.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

But less than a month later, Nikki's pregnancy ended in a miscarriage. It was the first of many.

[Nikki Boyer]

There was grief around that one. Like that one resonates more with my husband because his excitement about that one was just like through the roof. And I was so excited for us.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Six months later, Nikki was pregnant again and miscarried again. Six months after that, she was pregnant for the third time. She walked into her OBGYNs for an ultrasound expecting joy and instead got silence.

[Nikki Boyer]

Oh my gosh. It was so. Ugh. It was so devastating going into that ultrasound and being so excited and then there's just no heartbeat. For the third Time.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Infertility affects one in eight couples in the US and for those who pursue treatment, the price is steep. Not just emotionally, physically, and spiritually, but. But financially, too. A single cycle of IVF can cost anywhere from $15,000 to $30,000.

[Nikki Boyer]

My doctor, who I loved, said, I think it's time to go look into this, because I can't imagine you going through this a fourth time. I want to be smart with your health, and I also want to be smart with your mental health.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Nikki was about to embark on a very long, very challenging, and very expensive journey to try to have a baby. But she had a lot of support. Her husband, her family, and especially her best friend, Molly.

[Nikki Boyer]

I mean, I have lovely friends in my life and people that understood this journey very deeply. But Molly just seemed to, like, get it on a really deep, deep level. And I think she really, like, she really wanted me to have a baby. I think that hope and little moment of, like, a life created took the weight off of how heavy things were for her. And honestly, it did for me too. It kind of gave, like, a little spark, you know, something exciting and something to look forward to.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

But while Nikki was trying to create life, Molly was approaching the end of hers. Her cancer had returned, and it was stage four, and together they made a podcast about it called Dying for Sex, which was first released in 2020.

[Nikki Boyer]

You're listening to Dying for Sex. I'm Molly.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

I'm 44, and I have stage four breast cancer. Technically, I'm dying, but aren't we all?

[Nikki Boyer]

She decided to do something really bold and go on a sexual adventure, to kind of learn who she was, to figure out what she liked, and to kind of really get into her body, and she wanted to do it through sex. Do you know that our friendship has given me so much meaning in the face of all this? You are actually one of the people that makes me want to continue to live. Aw. I love that.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Thank you.

[Nikki Boyer]

I love you. When a lot of people hear the title, they think it's all gonna be about sex. But I think if you listen and you kind of dive in, you realize that it's just a window into the deeper dive that Molly did into herself of finding bigger questions, like, what do you want to do with the time that you have left, and who am I and what's my legacy and what do I want to leave behind and how can I heal from old wounds? All the stuff that we. I think we're all trying to figure.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Out just the small stuff right at its core. Dying for Sex wasn't about sex. It was about meaning, friendship, and asking, what do we do with the time that we have left? And Nikki says spending so much time with Molly in and around the end of her life really changed the way she lives her life today.

[Nikki Boyer]

Watching her be so vulnerable and open. She didn't have that element in her life before she got really, really sick. So when I got to see her sort of live so fearlessly in her truth and kind of expose all of it, I just found it to be so empowering, and I. So brave and so cool and, like, she just didn't give any Fs, and I loved that.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Yeah.

[Nikki Boyer]

Watching her do that in those last, you know, months of her life, I was like, God, I don't want to wait. That I don't want to wait. Like, just say it. Say it out loud. Say it to a friend. See what happens. Like, talk about the uncomfortable things. That's kind of one of my favorite things to do. I'm great at a party, I'm like, so how do you feel about death, girl?

[Dr. Jessica Zucker]

Me too.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Right?

[Nikki Boyer]

I know. Hello. We're in good company.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Absolutely. They had plans to do a second season, but Molly died in 2019 before they could record it.

[Nikki Boyer]

She was like, let's flip this on to you, because Molly always said, as I've been fighting to save my life, you have been fighting to create a life. So that's what she wanted season two to be about. At the time, I was like, oh, girl, I don't know if I could do that. I don't know if I was ready at that time. But I wished I would have been, because how empowering would that have been?

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

I'm Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter, and this is before we go. This season, we're in conversation with people from all walks of life, exploring how we live alongside mortality. Today's episode, Nikki Boyer learns to let go. So I've been traveling a bunch lately and working really hard, and honestly, I just felt like I needed to treat myself. So I grabbed a new everyday wallet from Quince, and I'm so glad I did. It's minimal, but feels luxurious. Made with pebbled calf leather that gives it this durable and chic finish. The structured design means it actually holds its shape, and the zip around keeps everything secure. And inside, there's just enough pockets for my cards and then those little treasures that somehow end up in every wallet. Quinn's has something for everyone on your list. Beautiful pieces that blend effortlessly into your everyday life, from timeless leather goods to cozy sweaters and silk essentials. Step into the holiday season with items made to feel good, look polished and last. From Quince. Perfect for gifting or keeping for yourself. Go to quince.com beforewego for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com beforewego to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com beforewego Americans spend an average of 90% of their time indoors, but did you know that indoor air can be up to 100 times more polluted than outdoor air? Breathe Easy with Air Doctor, the award winning air purifier that eliminates 99.99% of dangerous contaminants like allergens, viruses, smoke, gases, mold spores and more. Air Doctor was voted best air purifier by Newsweek. So it's no surprise that 98% of Air Doctor customers agree their home's air feels cleaner, safer and healthier. Unlike other purifiers, AirDoctor captures invisible particles 100 times smaller than standard HEPA filters. Head to airdoctorpro.com and use promo code before we go to get up to $300 off today. Air Doctor comes with a 30 day money back guarantee plus a 3 year warranty. An $84 value free. Get this exclusive podcast only offer [e-mail] a I r d O C T O r p r o.com using promo code before we go. In the fall of 2015, Nikki and Molly found themselves on unexpectedly paral parallel paths. Both deeply medical and both deeply personal. Molly had a double mastectomy and started her cancer treatment, hoping to extend her life. And around the same time, Nikki was referred to a fertility clinic to begin her journey toward creating one.

[Nikki Boyer]

First of all, they go into your uterus and start like scoping things out and being like, well, what's going on in here? And I remember like being very confused by that. But if you think about it, if they're gonna go to great lengths to get this embryo, that where they're gonna put it needs to be as FL as possible.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

While Molly began having sexual adventures as a way to connect with a body that she felt was letting her down, Nikki and her partner Tommy started the very unsexy process of trying to get pregnant through fertility treatments.

[Nikki Boyer]

Like he was going to the IVF clinic with me and going into a very sterile room and watching porn and, you know, masturbating into a cup and I was like, how? How was that? And he was like, really weird. And I was like, what is happening here?

[Dr. Jessica Zucker]

Right?

[Nikki Boyer]

Like, oh, my gosh. Yeah.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Nikki started with intrauterine insemination, or iui. It's one of the first steps that many people take when trying to get pregnant with medical help. During ovulation, sperm is placed directly into the uterus, giving it a better shot at reaching the egg. But, like, so much in this process, what seems straightforward can feel anything. But did you have, like, high hopes that that would work?

[Nikki Boyer]

Oh, yes. Every time I was like, this is gonna be. This is gonna be the answer. This will be the fix every single time. I just think I was naive enough to think, well, oh, this will work, right? Cause what's the other side of that? I hadn't even really thought of that as an option.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

After the procedure comes what Nikki calls the waiting game. As you wait to see if you've.

[Nikki Boyer]

Become pregnant, you buy, like, 700 pregnancy tests from the CVS down the street and wait for you, hopefully, not to bleed. And I remember being very disappointed when that failed, because I knew that meant now there's a bigger step. I don't know. I didn't know what that was, but I just knew that there was something.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Through it all, Molly was the person Nikki found herself leaning on.

[Nikki Boyer]

She was incredibly engaged and understanding. Like, I was like, gosh, I don't want to bother you with all the details, but she. Man, she leaned in hard and was like, what time's your appointment? Where are you going? Call me after. She was. She understood the ups and downs of health stuff, unlike, really anybody else. So she was somebody that I leaned on. But when I wanted space and didn't want to talk, she never took it.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Personally because she understood if IUI doesn't work, the next step is often ivf, short for in vitro fertilization. It's more intensive, more expensive, and more emotionally complex. Doctors retrieve eggs from the ovaries, fertilize them with sperm in a lab, and then transfer an embryo back into the uterus. The next step for Nikki was hormone injections that would encourage multiple eggs to mature at the same time.

[Nikki Boyer]

I did hear the wonderful compliment that I had the ovaries of a 25 year old, which was so nice to hear. Got lots and lots of eggs. I want to say. Like, oh, my gosh. I think we ended up with, like, 15 or 16.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Wow.

[Dr. Jessica Zucker]

I know.

[Nikki Boyer]

It was an insane amount of eggs.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

For a woman of Nikki's age. The average number of eggs retrieved from a single Cycle is closer to nine. And given Nikki's history, her doctors expected her count to be lower. So the news was really encouraging. But no matter how many eggs you retrieve, the number that matters is the number of embryos that make it through genetic screening and are considered viable. That takes about a week. Nikki says that for her, that was the most intense part of the whole process.

[Nikki Boyer]

I would sit by the phone days, like, I would just. I couldn't even move. I was just like, somebody please tell me, like, this is going to be a good answer. And my doctor, who was so lovely, gave me her cell phone number, and I was texting her, and all the nurses knew me, and I was. I was kind of losing myself in the process. But I just thought, gosh, if I could just get the answers and just get the answers. And I remember I'd get a phone call, and you know how sometimes your phone, like, will miss a call and you're like, no. And I would call back, and it was just missed voicemails or my phone's not ringing right. And so much anxiety around it. I just felt like that was the umbrella under which I was living was like, are there any viable embryos? And that first time, just the numbers kept going down after each day and were no viable embryos out of all of those. And I was so crushed because I thought, what else? Like, what else do we do here?

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Yeah. My goodness, you wanted that so badly and to get. I can't imagine what that must have been like for you.

[Nikki Boyer]

I was really lonely. Yeah. Even though my husband was being so supportive and so amazing and so invested because we really wanted to make a baby together. But I don't think he ever really fully grasped what was going on, you know, so hard for. Not to make this gender specific, but I think it's really hard for sometimes for a man to really grasp what that. What that does to a woman. And he stepped up and showed up and was right there for everything. But it always still felt like I was on an island, you know?

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

And the friend who could relate to that feeling the most was Molly, who found herself on an island of her own.

[Nikki Boyer]

I remember there was once where she was like, hey, I really need. I really need a ride to an appointment. And by this time, I was after my first failed round of ivf, and I got pregnant naturally again for the fourth time and was going through my fourth miscarriage. And I was in bed, which is kind of where I felt like I was for almost four or five years, wearing a diaper. And I was Like, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm a little tied up right now. I'm in a diaper. And she was like, blah, blah, blah, excuses, excuses, excuses. And we. I just knew, like, she had a way of just lightening things up. And we had really, really dark senses of humor together. And so we would say things that we would normally not say, probably to other people. But she knew the gravity and the weight of things more so than anyone. So I felt such a nice, like, safe vibe with her.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

And so with each miscarriage, did you allow yourself time to grieve the loss or were you sort of focused on, okay, that's horrible, I'm upset, but let's get on to the next procedure.

[Nikki Boyer]

Ding, ding, ding.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Yeah.

[Nikki Boyer]

I was like, okay. I was so driven, mildly obsessed with, like, getting through it. No, let me rephrase that. I wanted to get over it. And I knew over it just meant, let's have another pregnancy. The second, the third, the fourth, the fifth, I just felt like were medical things that were just wrong with me. They never really felt like potential babies. But to answer your question, no, there was so I couldn't even grieve. I was just so on the train of trying to just, let's get on to the next thing. Let's get a good pregnancy. Let's get. And I mean, I see how women get obsessed with this and how it becomes, like, just who you are and you lose sight of everything else that's going on in your life.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Through all of this. Nikki and Molly were checking in on each other, usually over text.

[Nikki Boyer]

She's going through chemo. I'm on pins and needles hoping that there's a good embryo. She is sick as a dog. And, I mean, I would kind of lose her for two or three days because I knew she couldn't even text. She was so exhausted. And I remember feeling torn because I wanted to take care of myself, but I also wanted to be there for her and take care of her. And I was also waiting for that phone call of, like, here's how many were fertilized, right? And I think by this time, I was only getting. And even with all the drugs, I was only getting, like, five, six. I was getting a bunch of eggs, but, like, five or six embryos.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

So in some ways, Molly's dating life was a good distraction for them both.

[Nikki Boyer]

In the middle of all this crap that I was going through, I'd be like, oh, my God, did you have any good orgasms? Were you, like, hooking up with anybody? Good. Anybody cute? Like.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

In early 2018, Nikki found out that she was pregnant for the sixth time.

[Nikki Boyer]

I was oddly very fertile. Every time I was ever pregnant, it was always naturally. I never got pregnant from IVF because the aches were never viable.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

In mid February, Nikki and Tommy went to their first ultrasound and heard the baby's heartbeat. But two weeks later, the heartbeat was gone. It was Nikki's sixth miscarriage in four years. Did you know that attempt was the end of the dream for you, or were you still holding out hope?

[Nikki Boyer]

God, that's such a good question. I was so attached to that pregnancy. The doctors at the IVF place were so excited for me, and it had gotten farther along than any other pregnancy. And I. I think we even knew the gender.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Oh, my goodness.

[Nikki Boyer]

So I felt like, oh, this is. This is supposed to be, you know, the one. Something shifted in me. Something shifted drastically in me where I thought my brain kept going, well, what are the other options? And what can we do? And how could. But my body knew that it was the end. I did.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Was there any part of you that was relieved maybe to have made that decision? Yeah.

[Nikki Boyer]

Yeah. And just talking about it with you right now, I can feel the relief in my own body. Like, I felt relieved.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Nikki remembers the exact moment when she knew it was time to stop trying.

[Nikki Boyer]

I was in my bathtub. And your body just kind of has to process the miscarriage, and you just kind of have to, like, I mean, can we go there and talk about what really happens? Like, you sit on a toilet and you feel this passing through your body, right? And then you think it's done, and then it's not. And it's just like the most massive, painful period with cramping. And you're on some drugs, and you're kind of there, so you're kind of euphoric. And, I mean, I'm not gonna lie. The drugs were the best part. I was like, oh, great, Give me drugs. Like, anything to not let me be feeling this. But I remember I was in my bathtub, and it was filled with blood. I was just sitting there, trying to get some relief. And I kept thinking, like, why am I fighting so hard for this? Like, what is this really about? And my husband came into the bathroom, and he looked at me, and he's like. He makes me so emotional to think about. He looked at me and he said, oh, my God, you look so beautiful. And then he was like, wait, wait, I'm sorry. I didn't. I hope you know what I mean. Like, I know you're struggling, but you just look so beautiful. I looked at him and I remember that moment and I said to myself, that's my baby. That. That's what I have to focus on, that relationship. Because he's the reason I wanted to have a baby. Because if I'm being really honest with myself, the idea of being a mother, eh, it's fine. I've been a mother my whole life, but. But the idea of having a baby was so fascinating to me. I love newborns. I love infants. I love that. But when they get, like, older and, like, get annoying, I'm like, go away. Like, so I think I had to have a real moment with myself. What do I want? Like, what is this baby to me and what is it representing? And I got really clear with my, with my husband. I was like, that's what I need to focus my love and attention on.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Yeah.

[Nikki Boyer]

And that was the moment that shifted in me where I was like, I think this is the. I think this is the end of the road.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

You're listening to before we go. We'll be right back. My dad was one of those people who could light up a room with a story. He was funny, a little larger than life. And somehow, even when I'd heard a story a dozen times, I. I'd still find myself laughing. But every once in a while, he'd share something new, a story I'd never heard before. And now I look back and it hits me how many of those little stories, those threads of who we are, can slip away if we don't capture them. That's why I love Storyworth Memoirs. Each week, Storyworth emails your loved one a question. Something like, what was your most memorable trip? Or what's the best advice you ever got? They just reply by email or record it over the phone for Storyworth to transcribe. No apps, no tech confusion. And this year, they added a bunch of new features to make storytelling even easier. At the end of the year, Storyworth takes all those stories and photos and turns them into a beautiful hardcover book. And photos are printed in vibrant color. And they have some beautiful new book designs. It's the kind of thing you'll pull off the shelf and say, remember when dad told us that one? And start laughing all over again. They've printed over a million books and preserved 35 million family stories since their founding 13 years ago. They have over 48,000 five star reviews on Trustpilot. Give your loved ones a unique keepsake that you'll all cherish for years. Storyworth Memoirs right now save $10 or more during their holiday sale when you go to storyworth.com beforewego that's storyworth.com beforewego to save $10 or more on your order. The holidays are coming fast and if you're like me, you want to thoughtful gifts without all the stress. That's why I love Uncommon Goods. They make holiday shopping actually fun with thousands of unique and meaningful gifts that you won't see anywhere else. One of my recent finds is this great water bottle bag. I love taking long walks, but I'm usually trying to balance my phone, the keys, and that huge 32 ounce water bottle. This little bag fixes everything, keeps the bottle secure, has space for the essentials, and you can even get it personalized. It's cute, waterproof, and ideal for anyone who's always on the go. Uncommon Goods is full of gifts like that. They're beautifully made, unexpected, and then often created by independent artists. Plus, every purchase gives back. They donate $1 to a nonprofit of your choice, which I'm all about, so don't wait. Cross those names off your list before the rush. To get 15% off your next gift, go to uncommongoods.com beforewego that's uncommongoods.com BeforeWeGo for 15% off Uncommon Goods we're all out of the ordinary. I've never been through the heartache of wanting children and not being able to have them, so I can't pretend to know what that feels like. But in my early 30s, during residency, I started asking myself that question of do I want kids? And it took a lot of time, years actually. But I got to a place where I could say honestly that I did not want to become a parent. And I'm really grateful for that. Then years later, I found out, of course, that I had a BRCA2 mutation and chose to have preventative surgery, a hysterectomy, to lower my lifetime risk of cancer. And there was this one moment playing with my niece and nephew outside. It was during the pandemic. They were 6 and 8, I think. And this whole thing hit me in a new way. I realized I would never have children, that the path wasn't just unlikely, it was completely gone. I thought about it, and still I really felt at peace about it. And I know that that peace is a privilege, because I got to decide. And so I wanted to talk with someone who sat with women in the midst of that uncertainty, that grief, who really understands what it means to hope for a child, to want it so badly, and then to lose that hope again and again. So I call Dr. Jessica Zucker. She's a psychologist in Los Angeles who specializes in women's reproductive and maternal mental health. For years, Jessica's counseled women as they grieved children who would never be born. And then one day, it happened to her.

[Dr. Jessica Zucker]

So 16 weeks into my second pregnancy, I had a miscarriage. While I was home by myself, I had to cut the umbilical cord. My OB GYN coached me by phone how to do this. My husband all the while was darting through Los Angeles traffic trying to get home to me. And my doctor recommended that we bring the fetus in a bag to her office to be tested. To make matters all the more traumatic and physically challenging and psychologically unbelievable, I ended up undergoing an unmedicated DNC.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

A D& C, or Dilation and Curettage, is a surgical procedure that's sometimes needed to remove tissue from the uterus after a miscarriage. It's often routine, but usually people get medicated for pain and anxiety before and during the process. Jessica had spent years helping others through the heartbreak of miscarriage, stillbirth, and infant loss. But when she experienced it firsthand, something shifted. She realized just how deep the cultural silence around pregnancy loss really goes, and she wanted to break it. Her first book was called I Had a Miscarriage. A Memoir, A Movement. Jessica says many women carry shame after losing a pregnancy, blaming themselves for something entirely out of their control. But for her, the reaction was something else entirely.

[Dr. Jessica Zucker]

My initial reaction was something must have been wrong with the fetus. That was just where I went. I didn't think, oh, did I have an extra sip of coffee? Or, oh, was it because I had an orgasm that day? Or, oh, I. I don't think I did, by the way. I'm just saying, you know, I didn't go to the places that many women report going to in terms of what might I have done wrong. But when people started asking me questions or when people started saying certain things to me, platitudes, well, meaning ones, that is actually when I found myself wrestling with feelings of shame. So, for example, at my son's preschool pickup a few days after my loss, another mom said to me from afar across the parking lot, oh, you look so great. You don't even look like you were pregnant. There's so many things wrong with what she said. I want to be pregnant. The fact that my body just happened to sort of lose the weight that quickly wasn't something I was proud of or excited about or something I had a hand in yeah. So I think oftentimes people say things they think will be helpful. Maybe she thought that was a compliment. I guess she did. But it ends up alienating people, and it ends up making people sometimes regret being vulnerable or sharing what they've been through.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

When Nikki was in the thick of trying to get pregnant, the endless appointments, the shots, and devastating loss after loss, her best friend Molly just seemed to know what to do. She didn't offer advice. She didn't try to fix it. She just showed up. Maybe it's because Molly had spent years navigating her own health crisis, hearing those same well meaning but ultimately hurtful platitudes. Maybe she understood in her bones how isolating that kind of silence can be. But the truth is, most of us don't know what to say when someone we love is facing infertility or loss. We're afraid of saying the wrong thing, so we say nothing at all. Jessica says it doesn't have to be that way.

[Dr. Jessica Zucker]

The simplest thing that we can do to get up close and personal with our loved one in a time when they need us most is to literally just be there.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jessica Zucker]

All we need to say is, I'm here for you. I care about you. If you want to talk about your situation, your story, your pain, I want to listen. Some people will say, well, I didn't want to bring it up because in case she was over it or she wasn't thinking about it, I don't want to be like a downer for her. I can assure you she's thinking about it. And I can also tell you that if she's not, it's still loving to ask. We all want to feel seen, heard, acknowledged in our pain, in our lives, in our processes.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

And Jessica, when those losses start to multiply, when it's not just one experience but several, I imagine the emotional toll grows in ways that are hard to even describe. And for this particular episode, we also talked Nikki Boyer. And she had six miscarriages in four years. And I can't imag how the mental health effects must compound when someone just experiences so many losses.

[Dr. Jessica Zucker]

I think what I see in my office and I understood firsthand when I was pregnant again after my miscarriage, the intense excruciating anxiety in the next pregnancy and the fear of leaning into it, the fear of embracing hope, the fear of joy, the fear of excitement when you know what it's like to lose something you want this badly and it's happening within your body and you have absolutely no control. I think you're just Lodged into a whole other field of feelings and fear and sometimes isolation, because you don't really know who's going to get it. The numbers, the statistics are so clear. One in four pregnancies results in miscarriage, approximately. And I think the number is like 1 in 160 stillbirth. And why are we being basically groomed, I think, to blame ourselves when we become one of those numbers?

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Jessica's now come out with a second book called Normalize it, upending the silence, stigma, and shame that shape women's lives.

[Dr. Jessica Zucker]

I worry that too many women are feeling alone when they don't have to. I worry that when our important stories are tucked inside, they can swallow us whole. And I worry that that shame leads to depression and anxiety and so many other disordered, you know, ways of being that we need to collectively decide once and for all that if we can honor people's stories, if we can get people talking, if we can normalize the fact that these outcomes of pregnancy are, in fact, normal, unfortunate and painstaking, yes, but normal, then maybe people will feel less badly about themselves or less afraid, to be honest.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Infertility is so much more common than we talk about. People all around us are quietly carrying these stories, and it makes me wonder, how do you know when enough is enough, when to stop trying, when to consider a different path like adoption, surrogacy, or, like Nikki, to make peace with the decision not to become a parent at all? These are deeply personal choices, and they're never easy.

[Dr. Jessica Zucker]

I struggle with that because I'm not a psychic, I'm not a medical doctor, and even the medical doctors can't know and predict the future. And so I'm just here with them, thinking through the emotional toll this is taking. And we try to weigh out, how badly do you want this versus how badly are you feeling after going through all of this pain, all of this money, maybe all of these losses. But so we talk it through, we talk it out. What would it feel like to not have a child?

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jessica Zucker]

What would it feel like to turn to another route to become a parent? Because, again, if you leave the house, you think that everybody has a baby. And you probably think that everybody got there pretty easily. And so it is a long, arduous process for some people to really come to terms with. This isn't going to be a part of my life.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

As difficult as it sounds. Nikki Boyer found her way through that. After everything that she'd been through, all the procedures, the losses she made, the decision not to pursue adoption or surrogacy not because she didn't want to be a mother, but because for her, the cost on every level had just become too high. I asked her now, a few years out from that decision, how does it feel now? Does the sadness still linger?

[Nikki Boyer]

It's like a sliver of the pie, right? It's like a piece of the pie. It's always there. There's always a little grief around it. I mean, look at me right now. I'm just. But I think this grief is about the sadness of what I had to go through and the deep, like, reconciliation that I had to come to. But it's not so much about not getting a child, and I'm clear about that. I feel. I feel at peace with it. But there'll always be a little, like.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

I have to tell you.

[Nikki Boyer]

I'll be really honest with you. I love going shopping. It's like, one of my favorite things. Shopping for crap like candles and, like, cheap lip glosses. Like, I love to go to TJ Maxx or Marshalls or Target. And it used. I could not go through a store like that, going by the baby section without feeling like I wanted to just, like, sob.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Yeah.

[Nikki Boyer]

And it's been a long time since I felt that way.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Yeah.

[Nikki Boyer]

So I don't look at the baby clothes and go, oh, my gosh. I look at the baby clothes and go, all right. I made it through that. Right. Like, I figured that out. And I had to get really clear with myself of what does happiness and success and love and relationship look like without being a mother. And I got to a place where, like, I'm really. Like, I'm really okay with it.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Yeah.

[Nikki Boyer]

Yeah.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Looking back, would you go through it all again? Did you have any regrets?

[Nikki Boyer]

I mean, I'd love my thousands of dollars back. I was like. I literally said to one of the nurses once, can I get a refund? Like, can we get a refund when this doesn't work? Because I look back and I'm like, I would have. I would have loved to have gone to Europe. Right. Like, the Eiffel Tower sounds lovelier. Tuscany, like. But in all honesty, I'm just gonna say it. I called my financial advisor, which, first of all makes me sound like I'm rich, but I'm not. It's a friend of mine who is helping me and, like, trying to do smart things so I don't end up poor, and I called him, and his wife had gone through IVF and some things, and I said to him, what do I do considering where I am financially and how Expensive this is to do each time. And three failed IVFs was like purchasing a car, a very expensive car. And his advice to me, and he's one of my favorite humans, he said, you have to try it until you're completely tapped out. Because I would rather you be broke and not get what you want out of this than to have not tried it and always wonder, like, what if I would have just done it one more time? And I really followed that advice, and I. I did it as long and as much as I could until I tapped out, so I don't really have any regrets. And would I do it again? Yeah, probably.

[Dr. Jessica Zucker]

Seriously, you never had an orgasm?

[Nikki Boyer]

No, no. Like, I would get close, like, you.

[Dr. Jessica Zucker]

Know, when it feels like a little sneeze.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Like, in early April, Dying for Sex, the TV series based on Nikki's podcast, premiered on Hulu with Jenny Slate playing Nikki and Michelle Williams as Molly.

[Nikki Boyer]

I think Molly would be obsessed with Michelle Williams playing her. And then she'd also be like, yeah, that sounds about right. Yeah, that sounds good. That's perfect. Right? Like, that's how she would be.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

If Molly could see where you are right now, what do you think she'd say?

[Nikki Boyer]

Oh, that's so sweet. That she's proud of me and that she's happy that I found, like, a real deep love for not only my partner, but for myself in this process. And I think she would be. I think she is, actually. I don't think I could feel her. I think she is just all over me and with me all of the time, helping make my life really great. And I'm so grateful for that with her.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Yeah, I see that.

[Nikki Boyer]

You do?

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Yeah. I feel like I know her. Like, she's living on, you know, through you. Thanks for saying that.

[Nikki Boyer]

You know, she always used to say, you know, you're my soulmate. You're my soulmate. And I'd be like, well, I love you a lot. Like, I really deeply love you. I mean, I'm not gonna say soulmate. She's like, nope, we're soulmates. And it's funny because my husband and I actually decided after 14 years together, we should get married in 2022. Because I was like, oh, I want a husband. Like, let's be married. And we got married, and after we had our wedding, he said to me, gosh, Molly's everywhere. Even though she wasn't physically at our wedding, Like, I felt her and her soul is working through you. And he goes, she really is your soulmate. I was like, yeah, she is. She is my soulmate.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

What a special man you have.

[Nikki Boyer]

He's so awesome. Now you see why I want to make a baby with him. I was like, we have to, like, bring some more of this into the world. But I'm so lucky I get to be on this road with him. And it has not been easy and we have really struggled and gone through some shit together. But I have to say, like, he's like, yeah, he's my baby.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

Before We Go is a production of Podcast Nation and Me. Our production team includes Karen Given, James Brown, and Madison Britt. Original music by Edward Ayton. I'm Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter, and if you like what you've heard, I'd be so grateful if you tell a friend about us. And please leave us a review on your favorite podcast app. It helps other people who need us find us a little easier. And if you'd like to see photos and videos of these conversations and connect with other Before We Go listeners, visit us on Instagram at beforewegopodcast. Next time on the show. Last May, actor Alexandra Breckenridge lost a close friend to suicide, and she did something that we're seeing more and more often these days. She shared her grief with her fans on Instagram.

[Dr. Jessica Zucker]

I often want to tell people that.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

They'Re not alone in their big feelings in life because life can be overwhelming and loss is overwhelming. But what's really happening when celebrities share their grief and does it help others who are also grieving?

[Nikki Boyer]

It's grief education, right? So it's this amazing opportunity to build grief grief literacy.

[Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter]

That's next time on the season finale of Before We Go.