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- [00:01]
A
Why choose a sleep number Smart bed.
- [00:02]
B
Can I make my site softer? Can I make my site firmer? Can we sleep cooler?
- [00:07]
A
Sleep number does that cools up to eight times faster and lets you choose your ideal comfort on either side your sleep number setting. Enjoy personalized comfort for better sleep night after night. And now max out your savings. The more you buy, the more you save on beds, bases and more. Plus, get free home delivery on any smart bed with base limited time. Check it out at a sleep number store near you or@sleepnumber.com today.
- [00:31]
C
Okay, I'm just gonna launch in. We ask everybody the same first question. Tell me who you are and what you do.
- [00:39]
B
Oh, my gosh. Okay. It's kind of a trick question. My name is Ricki Lake, and I am a lot of things.
- [00:48]
C
Ricki Lake has been in the public eye since she was 19 years old when she starred as Tracy Turnblad in the 1988 movie Hairspray.
- [00:57]
B
Mom, dad. Oh, Penny, my best friend. I'm so happy. Finally, all of Baltimore knows I'm big, blonde and beautiful.
- [01:10]
C
Oh, you're a teen leader now. Then from 1993 to 2004, she hosted the Ricki Lake Show.
- [01:16]
B
Oh, boy. You know, it is hard to believe, but this is the 10th year that our show has been on the air.
- [01:22]
C
So there is so much that you and I could talk about. But I want to focus this conversation on love and loss and finding love again. So can we start with the story of how you first met Christian? Yes.
- [01:37]
B
I love talking about Christian. I feel like I am a profoundly better human being, having had him, loved him, and losing him.
- [01:49]
C
Christian Evans was Ricky's second husband. She met him when she was 42 years old.
- [01:53]
B
So this is going back 15 years. This is 2010. My sons were about nine and 13. And I was going through a very traumatic thing with my family, personal stuff with my parents. And I was needing a change. I wasn't working necessarily at that time, and I decided I needed to live at the beach in Malibu. So I rented a little beach house in Malibu with my two sons. It was 900 square feet. It was like a boat. It was like a wooden boat. And it was during that time that I met Christian through my best friend. I wasn't really interested in him. And then three weeks after I'd lived in this house, it burned down. I accidentally set it on fire.
- [02:32]
C
Oh, my gosh.
- [02:33]
B
And the fire happened. My birthday was three days later and I had a party, a last minute birthday party, because basically I survived this very traumatic Experience. And I invited everyone that was in my life at that time to come to my other house, because I had another house to have a celebration. And he came to that party, and that night, we got together intimately, physically. And I had said to him, and of course, I'm gonna be frank. I said, if you stick it in, you're gonna be my man.
- [02:59]
C
And he was. Ricky and Christian were together for six and a half years, starting with that birthday party after the house fire.
- [03:05]
B
In my way of thinking now, in hindsight, I feel like it was divine intervention, because it is what brought Christian and me together as a couple. We had an incredib intimate relationship that was kind of on another. I mean, it was on another level. And Christian used to liken himself an alien. He would say, I'm not of this earth. I'm not of this, you know, human form. People don't understand me. At that time, I didn't know the depth of what he was talking about. But he struggled with mental illness. He was bipolar, and he struggled with chronic pain. He had learning differences. He was. You know, he's special. He was special in every sense of the word.
- [03:49]
C
How did he tell you that he had a mental health issue?
- [03:51]
B
He told me immediately. He told me, in the very beginning of our relationship, I have been diagnosed as bipolar. And my reaction was like, oh, yeah, we all have our stuff. I'm a control freak. Like, I didn't understand. I didn't Google it. I just kind of, like, he was opening up to me. I assumed it was, like, a character flaw. Like, I've got my character flaws. I didn't understand the complexity and the struggles that he had been through. And I want to, like, be really clear. He was amazing. He was an amazing human, and yet he had these really intense struggles.
- [04:28]
C
Despite everything he was struggling with. Ricky says Christian was a man of his word. From the night they became intimate, he was her man, madly in love with.
- [04:37]
B
Me, madly in love with my children. And, you know, I found out after the fact he was planning to take his life. At that time, he was struggling. He was in a downward. After a manic episode, he was in the depression part, and he was planning putting all his ducks in a row to end his life then. And that night, when I made him commit to me, he put that on the back burner and committed to me as his partner. I mean, I saved his life. I actually saved his life. Then I saved it one more time, and then the third time, I couldn't save him.
- [05:10]
C
Christian Evans died by suicide In February of 2017, he was a jewelry designer. And even now, more than seven years after his death, Ricky still keeps him close to her heart.
- [05:22]
B
What I'm wearing today is a chakra pendant that he designed that he gave to me. I love it so much. I really want to just keep his memory alive. He was so freaking amazing.
- [05:40]
C
But I don't want you to think that this is an entirely sad story because Ricky found love again. And it's a love she believes Christian wanted for her. In January of 2022, Ricky married Ross Birmingham and he's now the center of her life and her Instagram feed.
- [05:56]
B
And it's so fun, like talking to you, Shoshana, about this. I haven't thought about it because I'm in a new marriage, my new beautiful partner who is like the pinnacle partnership and love.
- [06:07]
C
And this is what I wanted to talk to Ricky about because she's never been shy about celebrating her love for Christian right alongside her love for Ross. I'm Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter and this is before we go. This season, we're in conversation with people from all walks of life, exploring how we live alongside mortality. Today's episode, Ricki Lake lives for love. As the weather cools down, I find myself reaching for layers that are timeless, comfortable and easy. And Quince has become my go to. Their pieces feel elevated, they last, and they don't come with the big price tag that you'd expect. We're talking $50 Mongolian cashmere denim that actually fits and outerwear that looks designer but costs a fraction of the price. The quality really is that good. What I love is how Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen so you get that same luxury feel and craftsmanship at about half the price. It makes upgrading your wardrobe feel both practical and stylish. One piece I've been living in is their organic cotton blazer with a sleek lapel patch, pockets and cropped sleeves. It's modern, effortless, and instantly pulls an outfit together. It's professional, but not too serious. Quince has become my one stop shop for timeless pieces that I'll wear again and again. Find your fall staples at quince. Go to quince.com beforewego for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com beforewego to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com beforewego. You know how the holidays sneak up every year. Suddenly it's mid December and you're panic shopping. This year I'm determined to do things differently and actually enjoy finding gifts that feel personal and thoughtful. Uncommon Goods makes holiday shopping stress free and joyful with thousands of one of a kind gifts that you can't find anywhere else. One of my recent favorites from Uncommon Goods is a super cute water bottle bag. I love going on long walks to get my workout in, but I'm always juggling my phone, my keys and a water bottle and this bag solves that. It holds my giant 32 ounce bottle securely. Plus there's room for essentials and you can get it monogrammed. It's stylish, waterproof, and really a perfect gift for anyone who's constantly on the move. Uncommon Goods is full of gifts like that. They're unique, high quality, and often handmade by independent artists. And when you shop there, you're supporting small businesses and giving back. They donate $1 from every purchase to a nonprofit of your choice, which I love. So shop early, have fun, and cross some names off your list today. To get 15% off your next gift, go to uncommongs.com beforewego that's uncommongs.com beforeweGo for 15% off. Don't miss out on this limited time offer. Uncommon Goods. We're all out of the ordinary. Ricki Lake and Christian Evans got married in April of 2012. It was two years into their relationship, but Ricky still didn't understand the full extent of Christian's mental illness.
- [09:30]
B
You know, it's really, in hindsight you see things so much more clearly. And so his relationship with his mom and his sister, he would keep them at bay from me because he didn't want them tipping me off on what they'd be with his prior hospitalizations. And so we really, like I just was naive and I was in love and we had a great thing. And he wasn't trying to hide things from me, but like he thought that he had turned a new leaf. You know, he thought he had overcome this.
- [10:00]
C
Christian still struggled with chronic pain that made it hard for him to get out of bed in the morning. And looking back now, Ricky recognizes that his mental health could have benefited from more care and attention.
- [10:11]
B
Regular sleep, regular eating, not self medicating, not traveling out of time zones. And you know, we went to Ibiza a lot. Ibiza was our place that we loved and you know, that nightlife and that, I mean, it's just, it's the worst place for someone who is struggling with trying to keep their mental health in check. You know.
- [10:34]
C
Four years into the relationship, something started to shift in Christian's behavior.
- [10:38]
B
He was suddenly getting up with me in the morning and doing yoga with me. And he had all these ideas and he was suddenly inspired. And so I', oh my God, my guy is so great. He's got these incredible ideas and he's making connections, he's selling his jewelry and oh my gosh, you know? And it was his sister who could tell from a Facebook post, she could tell from what he put on Facebook that he was going into an episode. And she called me one day and she was crying and she's like, I think my brother is having a psychotic break. Watch for him not sleeping. Watch for him not eating. Watch for him having grandiose thoughts. Watch for like, boom, boom, boom. And everything she said was happening. And what happened in his case was he just kept getting higher and higher and higher and higher. He thought he could fly. He thought he could time travel. He left the Range Rover I bought him on the side of the highway outside of Las Vegas because he didn't need it because he could time travel and he could cure cancer with his hands. And he could. And there was no. There was no rationalizing. There was no bringing him back. There was nothing I could do.
- [11:42]
C
Ricky hired a private investigator to follow Christian to make sure he was safe. And at one point, he was admitted for a 72 hour involuntary psychiatric evaluation. For a person who's deemed to be a danger to themselves or others. I can only imagine how frightening and disorienting that must have been for both of you, right?
- [12:02]
B
I mean, it was terrifying for him. I mean, he's numb to it, you know, like. And I now can look back at pictures of him. I can see it in his eyes when he was and in a psychotic state. I could see it clear as day. It was like two different people. It was like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. And he turned on me. And for a man who was so kind and so gentle with me and so loving, he suddenly would, like, be sharp and be like a little nasty. Not nasty.
- [12:29]
C
It's.
- [12:29]
B
Cause it was subtle. It was more subtle than that. But he would get curt with me, and I just didn't recognize this side of him. And it was really hurtful. And I was doing everything for him.
- [12:40]
D
So it was.
- [12:40]
B
It was very jarring. And I. You know, in looking back on all of the hardship and the experience of even his. His death, his. His suicide, it was more shocking the first episode than ultimately him dying. Christian was giving away My money. He would write out checks to all, to amazing charities. Like. Like, Christian had such an amazing heart and he wanted to save the world. But all the checks, stacks of checks that were my money, that it was $1,111.11, and there were like 10 of them. And I'm like, he can't be doing this. You know, we were separated. We weren't speaking. I was divorcing him. I had to divorce him because he was a liability. Both. Like, he was a danger to himself. He wouldn't get help, and I was concerned he would harm someone else. He was blowing through my money, so I had to protect myself financially.
- [13:36]
C
And then, as often happens with people who suffer from bipolar disorder, the manic phase ended and then came the crash.
- [13:44]
B
So basically, what a manic episode in his case, in our case, is that it would, like, last about three months. It was always in the fall equinox. It was always around my birthday. It was usually after we came back from Ibiza. We would have the summer there. He'd get higher and higher and higher and higher until he'd crash. And then he became suicidal and became so ashamed and so felt terrible. You know, the first episode in 2014, he crashed around Thanksgiving. You know, I tried to help him via text. You know, I wasn't really talking to him. I was trying to get my life together again. And then we ended up getting back together for another two years after he went through a treatment center.
- [14:22]
C
And you were hopeful that things would go back to the way that they were?
- [14:25]
B
I was, because I was in love with him and I wanted him to get better. And I also, like. I felt like I have all the resources, like, I can fix him, I can save him. I can do this. Like, I'm a manifester. I felt very hopeful that I could get him better, but things were different. I'm not going to lie. Things were different when he moved back into my house. I feel like every night after that episode, I was sleeping with one eye open. I feel like I never could totally relax with him being back with me. When is it going to happen again? And it happened almost exactly two years later.
- [14:58]
C
And did it look different?
- [15:00]
B
It was worse. It got worse. It got worse. He was downtown in LA and he was naked in the street. And I heard a story that he went into a restaurant full of people and he thought like, evil things were coming to get him. And he was super paranoid. He was. I mean, it just. It went to another level. And that's the thing about bipolar, when they're Untreated, at least I can only speak for him and what my experience was. But I've heard that it can get. It gets worse. It gets worse. It doesn't get better. He went back to Arizona where his mother and sister were living. And we lost touch, as we had the two years before, where we didn't speak for a couple months. And I, at that point, I needed to put the oxygen mask on myself. I had to take care of my children and take care of myself. And I knew I could not sign up for another round of this for me. But I wanted to be his friend. I wanted to show up for him. And so it was like, you know, the same thing. Thanksgiving was the lowest part. And then we'd get back in touch. And then January, three days or four days before he took his life, he came to say goodbye to me.
- [16:05]
C
Ricky only realized in retrospect that Christian came to LA to say goodbye. At the time, she thought it was something else.
- [16:13]
B
He said he was coming through la, and I was like, oh, why? Why are you coming through? He's like, oh, I've got. He had a jewelry business and he's like, I have jewelry in pawn in a pawn shop. And he asked if he could see me, all of my friends, my therapist, everyone. Okay, meet him for coffee, don't bring him home, don't see him at night, don't have alcohol. Don't, you know, like. Like all the things. And I. I'm so glad I didn't listen to anybody. I saw him at night. We went and had sushi happy hour. He didn't drink, really, but he had a beer and I had a glass or two of wine. And I did bring him home and I did make love to him all night. And we had this amazing, really, last night together. I didn't know it was his goodbye. I didn't know. And he had made a playlist for me and I. Playlist? You made me a playlist? And it was called My Eternal Soulmate. And it was all songs. I mean, it was like. I've listened to it many, many, many times since then, and it's just a love letter to me. And he wrote me a beautiful final text that I didn't at the time understand that that was goodbye.
- [17:19]
C
And how did you learn that? Christian had died by suicide.
- [17:23]
B
His sister had gotten an email from him on the 11th of February at 1:11. He wrote this note relinquishing his dog and saying he was done. Cut to. I mean, the crazy part. I knew he was gone. We couldn't find his body for two days. I called a psychic friend of mine, an acquaintance of mine. I called her. She knew it was Christian, and he told her where his body was. And she told me. And 10 minutes later, the police called, and it's where he said he was. So, I mean, I'm telling you, like, it gets really trippy. And I know a lot of people maybe are non believers in this, but I've had this experience that I believe with every pore, every. Every cell in my being that he was able to communicate to her. And I've had other validation with other mediums of his messages to me.
- [18:20]
C
And yeah, story really does get trippy. With encouragement from that same psychic, Ricky says she was able to put back together some of the pieces of Christian's life that had fallen apart. When he was in a manic state.
- [18:33]
B
I found his jewelry. I found his wedding ring in a pawn shop. Like, I went. I went on this wild goose chase. I was on a pilgrimage to heal, to try to make sense of why this happened, to honor him.
- [18:42]
C
Yeah. Ricky, losing someone you love is devastating under any circumstances, right? But losing them to suicide brings its own potential, particular kind of pain and complexity. What did grief look like for you?
- [18:57]
B
Oh, my God. It's really like. This feels like. Like a cathartic therapy session. I haven't thought about him in so long. I mean, it really is like a different level of loss when they make a choice. You know, it was both extremes. It was like it was relief. There was relief because it was so traumatizing worrying about him. And I didn't have guilt. Like, I didn't have guilt when he died. I knew I did everything I could and then some. And the way I honored him, the way I honored him after he died, the way I, you know, I honor him like every day by living my life to the fullest, you know, And I. And I know he is watching over me. I mean, I'm telling you, I am like, I was a pretty cool person before I met him. I'm way, way better. I'm a way better me. Because of him and because of our love. He made room for me to have the love that he thought I deserved. And so I do feel, I feel very strongly that Christian brought Ross to me.
- [20:01]
C
And how did you meet Ross?
- [20:03]
B
I met him during COVID During the height of COVID in 2020, so back, like early days, no vaccine, and we were washing our groceries because we thought they were going to kill us.
- [20:12]
C
I remember that.
- [20:14]
B
Yeah, it very lonely, isolating time. I was dating someone that was not the right guy. And it was just not going anywhere but like, it was Covid and whatever. So it was while I was on a beach walk. I was living in the Marina, Marina del Rey. And I was waiting for my house to be finished. This house that I'd bought when I was with Christian that I was. It was going to be our sanctuary. It was going to be our place where we get to grow old. And he died halfway through the build of that house, which really made me mad because I didn't want to have a house by myself on top of a mountain in Malibu. I wanted to share it with someone. But I was living in the marina in July of 2020 and I ran into someone that I didn't even know that well. And so, you know, we hadn't seen anybody for weeks on end. So it was like I had the mask on at the beach. Hi, it's me, Ricky. Hi. And she's like, oh, my God. How's it going with your guy? I'm like, I hate him. I know. She's like, what are you looking for? I was like. And I had this moment of like, real clarity. And I was like, I want this, this, this and this. Can I curse on your podcast? Yeah, okay. I said, I want someone who has their together, please. I want someone who doesn't want a fucking kid because I have kids I don't want anymore. No one like no 50 year old that wants to have a baby. And I want someone who wants to have fun. Like my life these days is all about fun. And she's like, I know this great guy. She goes, I know he has his shit together. He's a successful attorney. I know he doesn't want kids. He has a bunch of them already. I don't know if he's fun, but I have a feeling you could bring out the fun.
- [21:40]
C
But it was not love at first sight.
- [21:42]
B
I was just not his type. He wasn't my type. He's a boring attorney. It took me a few months, but I finally saw the light at. It was Halloween 2020. It was very much like a rom com. I did a double take and I like saw him and I was like. I said out loud. I was like, it's you. It's always been you. And that was it. Like, my heart opened. And we've been together ever since.
- [22:07]
C
And from the begin, Ricky told Ross about Christian. And she didn't just tell him about the relationship they'd had when Christian was alive, going all the way back to her early days as a talk show host, Ricky would regularly feature psychic mediums on her show. And so after Christian died, she turned to psychics to help her connect with him.
- [22:27]
B
I mean, in fact, I had this psychic reading, this medium, not the one I told you about, but this other one had channeled Christian a year after he died. And I had the audio recording, and I. I played it for Ross. He spent the night that night for the first time. He slept over, and I woke up with him. And I said, I really want to play this for you. Can I share with you what this is and what this means to me? And I thought I'd play like 10 minutes of this really, really intense, incredible experience. And I played it for Ross, and I was like, okay. I went to turn it off. He's like, no, no, I want to hear the whole thing. And I played him the hour recording of Christian talking to me through this medium. It says a lot about Ross and his sense of self because he was so open to hearing everything I had to share about Christian. He welcomes me talking about him, and he's not, like, threatened by it. And their love for me is very similar, like the way Ross loves me. Christian loved me just as much, but it's like Ross is like a healthy man, you know, so Ross is not threatened at all. I talk about Christian all the time. I will till the day I die. I will always share what he meant to me and what he did for me.
- [23:44]
C
You're listening to before we Go. We'll be right back. Okay. I just have to warn you about something. This episode is about to take a left turn that I didn't plan for when I asked Ricky to come on this show. As I told Ricky at the beginning of our conversation, I wanted to talk to her about love and loss and then finding love again. And there are certainly plenty of experts out there that could help explore that idea. But that's not actually the thing that I found most fascinating about Ricky's story. So I decided to call a different kind of expert altogether.
- [24:23]
D
My name is Dr. Josh Bullock, and I'm a sociologist based at Kingston University, which is in London. My kind of research is in non religion, and at the moment I've been researching people who go to Pub Psychic Nights in the uk.
- [24:41]
C
I'd never heard of Pub Psychic Nights, but in the UK they're quite popular.
- [24:45]
D
So I live in London, in southwest London, in Kingston upon Thames, and maybe like 100 yards from our house, there's a pub along the river. And each month there's a big yellow sign says psychic Night here. And this is quite commonplace across British pubs. Lots of spaces now are having, or have always done hosting kind of psychic evenings. On any given weekday. They're often ticketed. They can be between usually like £5 or maybe £25. You would get a drink beforehand and sit down. But the events really aren't centered around drinking. They're a lot more serious than that, even though they happen in pubs. So I can give you an idea of one I went to, which was in the southwest of England. It was in a working man's club. The one I went to was kind of arranged as tables and the psychic medium at the front introduce themselves and then they will get messages or receive messages and people will say, you know, I think that message is for me.
- [25:45]
C
Other researchers are trying to prove whether or not psychics can actually communicate with the dead. But that's not the kind of question Josh is trying to answer.
- [25:54]
D
Previously I was interested in young people who were non religious and how and where they find a sense of connection. So I was lucky enough to travel to 25 different places in six different European countries and speak to young non religious people about how and where they find a sense of connection. And in talking to these non religious people who were, some of them were quite staunch atheists, we found out, particularly in kind of Eastern Europe, that more than a third of them had had some kind of paranormal, superstitious, magical or supernatural belief or experience ghosts or people having souls or people having kind of anomalous experiences that they couldn't explain. And this was quite unusual because you wouldn't always associate these kind of things with staunch non believers.
- [26:41]
C
Before we get into Josh's research, I just want to share something. I'm a physician by training. I certainly consider myself to be a scientist, someone rooted in the scientific method and evidence based thinking. And yet after losing my dad a few years ago, I found myself drawn to exploring mediumship, this idea that some people may, in ways that we don't fully understand, have a connection to those we've lost. I don't consider myself a believer, but I'm definitely curious. Josh, on the other hand, has no doubts.
- [27:14]
D
So I'm definitely a kind of firm skeptic. I don't believe that psychics are able to communicate with the dead. And that's not to say that I don't see the kind of benefits of these things taking place.
- [27:26]
C
But Josh wasn't the only researcher working on this study.
- [27:30]
D
My colleague Adam is somewhere in between and my colleague Caroline is Certainly more of a believer. And the research assistant on the project was an occultist.
- [27:39]
C
I bet that led to fascinating research meetings with the four of you.
- [27:44]
D
Yeah, absolutely. But it also gave us a bit more of a rigorous process to how we kind of analyze the data, how we develop the research questions, the survey questions, because we approached it from a kind of varying, different positions. I mean, it's quite odd, I think, because I did tell some of my colleagues across Europe about the research and often it was met with a bit of a snigger and a laugh, like, you know, there's psychics and they go to a pub and you drink a pint and you communicate with the dead. Like, that's really strange.
- [28:11]
C
And so you've linked the rise in psychic nights to the decline in traditional organized religion. Explain that to me.
- [28:20]
D
So now in England, some surveys put the number of non religious people up more than 50%. So there's less and less people generationally going to church, believing in God, etc. More people stating that they're non religious. And at least we think that this is to explain why a pop up of these kind of new spiritual spaces. Because the kind of big existential questions that everyone has, you know, where do we go when we die? Those questions remain. And we think pub psychic nights are one of these spaces that are helping people deal with grief in ways that traditional religion might have done before.
- [28:58]
C
So Josh and his fellow researchers didn't tackle the question of whether or not the messages provided by the psych psychics were real. Instead, they focused on the audience. Why were they attending? What were they hoping to get out of these events? And were these experiences profound for them, or were they just a good laugh? And so what did you find? Are people finding solace at these events?
- [29:21]
D
Yeah, I mean, 56% of people who did our survey said that attending a psychic night eased their grief from the loss of a loved one. So more than half of people going felt that it was helping them deal with grief in perhaps ways counseling, church, et cetera, was not doing.
- [29:39]
C
And even more surprising, at least for me, the study found that people did not need to actually believe that mediumship was real in order to feel better after a reading.
- [29:48]
D
No. So this was quite interesting. What we found from speaking to people and from interviewing them is there was a real mixture of beliefs. Not everybody was completely firmly kind of believers in psychics, nor was everybody kind of staunch skeptics. There was a real flickering in between the two where people wanted to believe, or at least in that moment of temporary kind of a suspension of disbelief. They wanted to believe in these things. So I've got a quote from one person. I would say I'm a believer, but I'm quite skeptical. But I do think there's something going on. So it's like people in their own kind of minds might have this kind of cognitive dissonance where they're flicking through as well. You know, they'd like to believe because that provides comfort in the face of death. How on earth did that psychic medium know that really specific detail about somebody, and therefore that's proof that they're okay. But in the same breath, people are also skeptical. Well, maybe they did this, you know, maybe. Maybe I'd have to go see another one to really, you know, know if it was true or not. But. But we did find that actually it didn't really matter if people believed or not. People were still seeing the benefits in terms of dealing with grief.
- [30:56]
C
And one thing that Josh stresses above everything else, people are definitely not attending these events just to be entertained.
- [31:04]
D
Sometimes they are entertaining, sometimes they're funny, but often they're very sad and profound. Like, they're a bit like a roller coaster. The one I went to was incredibly sad. I think being in a room full of, like, maybe 50 people who had clearly experienced loss recently was a tangible feeling. Like, you could. You could sense it. People were there seeking hope and comfort in the face of grief and death. And you could tell, like, people looked anxious. People were tapping. When people received messages, they were crying, and then they were crying out of kind of happiness, out of relief. A message from a woman's partner, husband came through, and lots of other people in the room kind of came over and give her a little pat on the shoulder, you know, and the woman was like, that was so nice. That was so nice. So people were kind of almost crying with her as well. Tears of happiness, tears of sadness going in between all the time. People who go to these events don't necessarily know each other either. So that it's quite unusual, then, to share that loss with strangers all within a pub that you might go to on a Saturday night.
- [32:10]
C
Certainly unusual. And when you describe it to me, I mean, obviously I haven't been to one. I wasn't there with you. But to me, I see this sense of beauty in that. In the human condition being shared with other humans, strangers, and people essentially showing up for each other in this way and allowing themselves to be vulnerable.
- [32:32]
D
Yeah, I mean, I think you're right in the sense that there's a sense of kind of beauty at the end, the end of a reading, just for that moment, like a temporary moment of where people come together to support each other. That is in itself a beautiful thing to witness. But if you come to these events thinking that they're gonna be fun and entertaining, they're not.
- [32:52]
C
So when people are grieving, of course, they can be quite vulnerable. So is there a danger here?
- [32:58]
D
Yeah, it's something that we did tackle a little bit within this project because there are elements of safeguarding here, I think, that aren't really discussed. There has been cases observed not by, but my colleague of a male psychic medium who was telling a young female that she was being followed by, like, a sex demon. Oh, yeah. So some really strange kind of readings and power relations going on there. So it's something that we have brought up in one of our research papers that's going to be published hopefully towards the end of 2025, about the safeguarding concerns here.
- [33:32]
C
Did the stories that you heard from participants change your mind about psychics or what happens after we die?
- [33:41]
D
No, I still remain the same person I was before the research in terms of not believing that psychic mediums can communicate with the dead. But I guess my position has changed slightly on it that I see the importance of it. These messages are having such a profound impact on people's lives, where perhaps they were struggling in the face of grief. And just having a simple communication from a loved one that they're okay is enough for them to deal with the kind of existential threats that we deal with as humans all the time. Where do we go when we die? What happens to my loved one? And if somebody is telling you that your loved one is safe, they're okay, they're wishing you well. That's a really good, you know, new partner you've got. We're really happy for you. I don't see necessarily speaking to a psychic or medium that dissimilar from praying or getting religious guidance. And therefore, at least from my perspective, I don't need to believe in it to see the profound impact it's having on people's lives.
- [34:46]
C
Here in the US Not a lot of bars host psychic nights, but that doesn't mean there's not outlets for this kind of thing. Since last September, one of those outlets has been a show on Netflix called Live from the Other side with Tyler Henry.
- [34:59]
B
Tyler, we are live on Netflix.
- [35:02]
C
And just.
- [35:02]
B
Just beyond those studio doors is the.
- [35:04]
E
Guest that you will be reading today.
- [35:06]
C
How are you feeling?
- [35:07]
B
Are you ready? Are you nervous?
- [35:08]
C
What's going on?
- [35:08]
E
I'M ready. I'm ready to knock it out. I have one person coming through for two people at least.
- [35:13]
C
Tyler Henry is a clairvoyant, medium and TV personality. He's most well known for his readings for Hollywood celebrities. In Live from the Other side, Tyler meets with celebrities and their guests. Everyone brings items that are connected to people who've died. When Ricky appeared on the show in October of last year, she brought some of Christian's jewelry. Ross sat behind Ricky on a long couch and supported her physically and emotionally as Tyler brought messages to her from Christian.
- [35:41]
E
When we connect with him, more than anything, I need to know he's okay. And that is always what people want to know. And when he comes in, there's this sense resoundingly of, I'm so much more than how I went.
- [35:52]
C
And look, I'm also not going to try to prove or disprove whether mediums like Tyler can actually speak to the dead. But there are some things about this reading that seem like they could have eased Ricky's pain. For example, remember when Ricky said this?
- [36:05]
B
I could see it in his eyes. When he was manic and in a psychotic state, I could see it clear as day. It was like two different people. It was like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.
- [36:14]
C
At the beginning of the reading, Tyler acknowledged that he knew that Ricky's husband had died, but he said that he didn't remember anything more about it than that. And then during the reading, he came out with this.
- [36:25]
E
He's showing his eyes very clearly in the way this comes through. There's this feeling of you could just kind of look at him. And I don't know if he would get a specific look in his eyes when he was going through it. Yes, but it's like, I can see this in you, even if you're not saying it. And I want to fix this, but I can't.
- [36:39]
B
Yes. That is actually.
- [36:40]
E
I need you to know he knows that you did everything possible.
- [36:44]
C
And I want to tell you about one more really wild thing that happened during this reading.
- [36:47]
E
So we're going to end up finding that there's a story where, like, there was a house fire or something along those lines. A fire RIP.
- [36:54]
C
At the time, Ricky told Tyler that the fire had already happened. After all, a house fire was part of her and Christian's love story. But just three months after the live show, Ricky lost her home. In the LA fires of January 2025.
- [37:09]
B
The house I had with Christian burned down. So much of his stuff that I'd had is gone. All of the jewelry I'd kept, I didn't have much. And that is just been a new level of loss, you know, and just having to come to terms with just, you know, nothing is permanent. We just have right now, right this moment, right now, like another medium. Like, I'm not that woo woo. But I did have another person channel and tell me that this is a good thing, that this happened to me. We're having this adventure in New York. We moved to New York City. I'm living in this amazing. I bought this great apartment. I had insurance. We were able to buy this place. I can rebuild my place, which I plan to do. So it's not a total loss. Like, it's just something we didn't anticipate. Life is very strange these days. But I'm grateful for all of it. All of it.
- [38:03]
C
Ricky keeps insisting that she's not that woo woo. But it's clear that she's gotten a lot of solace from talking to psychics since Christian's death. And another one told her that Christian is waiting for her in the afterlife.
- [38:15]
B
He feels at peace. He feels like he's himself and the only thing he doesn't have is me. And that he believes we will be reunited.
- [38:22]
C
And given how happy Ricky is with Ross, that begs a kind of obvious question. What happens when you're all there together?
- [38:33]
B
Okay, so I choose to believe that there is something more than what we are living in now. There is something beyond. I think that there's enough of me to go around and that I believe the three of us are going to be together, that Ross and Christian are going to meet in the afterlife, and that we're all going to live in harmony in some way. I choose to believe that I will be with my beloved Christian again. And Ross is right there with me. And there is no jealousy. It's only love. Only Love.
- [39:16]
C
Before We Go is a production of Podcast Nation and Me. Our production team includes Karen Given, James Brown and Madison Britt. Original music by Edward Ayton. I'm Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter, and if you like what you've heard, I'd be so grateful if you tell a friend about us.
- [39:32]
D
Us.
- [39:32]
C
And please leave us a review on your favorite podcast app. It helps other people who need us find us a little easier. And if you'd like to see photos and videos of these conversations and connect with other before we Go listeners, visit us on Instagram at beforewegopodcast next time on the show. Dr. B.J. miller was a sophomore in college when and a freak accident caused him to become a triple amputee. But BJ Says having grown up with a mother who was also disabled gave him a unique perspective on his new life.
- [40:08]
F
I mean, obviously, I was terrified. I was in pain. I was confused. I was many things. But there was also a piece of me that sort of knew what was happening when I came out of that first surgery. And I remember I saw my mom first, and I just remember saying to her, I oh, wow, mom, now we have so much more in common. And I meant it.
- [40:28]
C
Still, in the early days, BJ Sometimes wished that he could hide his disabilities, but that just wasn't possible.
- [40:34]
F
I did not have a choice. I couldn't pass. And that's something I'm extremely grateful for.
- [40:41]
C
That's next time on Before We Go.