CZM Rewind: How Sam Bankman-Fried Conned the Crypto World & The Sam Bankman-Fried Update

Summary

Behind the Bastards: How Sam Bankman-Fried Conned the Crypto World & The SBF Update (CZM Rewind)

Podcast: Behind the Bastards
Hosts: Robert Evans, Jamie Loftus (with producer Sophie)
Date: November 25, 2025

---

Episode Overview

This episode re-examines the meteoric rise and catastrophic fall of Sam Bankman-Fried (SBF), founder of FTX and prominent figure in the effective altruism community. Robert Evans and Jamie Loftus break down how SBF conned investors, celebrities, and regulators, analyzing both the psychology and tactics behind his elaborate fraud. The episode then pivots to provide real-time updates on the post-collapse fallout: SBF’s legal troubles, family dynamics, and the broader ethical questions his saga raises around wealth, tech, and rationalization of harm.

Tone: Satirical, biting, and darkly humorous—true to Behind the Bastards’ style.

---

Table of Contents

1. Opening Reflections & Relatable Cons
2. Who is Sam Bankman-Fried? Early Life & Privilege
3. The Philosophy Behind the Grift: Effective Altruism & Utilitarianism
4. Launching the Empire: Alameda Research and FTX
5. The Great Ponzi: The Mechanics of the Fraud
6. Celebrity Endorsements and Media Manipulation
7. Collapse & Aftermath: How It All Fell Apart
8. Family Ties and the Stanford Enclave
9. Update: Legal Fallout, Island Bunkers, and Diaries
10. Final Thoughts and The Fate of SBF
11. Notable Quotes

---

1. Opening Reflections & Relatable Cons

Timestamps: 02:46–05:11

• Episode begins with classic banter, touching on public fascination with “bad guys,” recent news about Elizabeth Holmes, and the problematic nature of punitive justice.
• Quote:
  • Jamie: “People don't go—for the prison industrial complex in general…” (03:27)
  • Robert: “It doesn't make anyone better. To the extent that there's value…it's people who are like a severe ongoing danger…” (03:37)
• Satirizes public redemption narratives, referencing Holmes, and draws a parallel: “By this time next year, there probably is going to be an HBO documentary about this guy [SBF].” (07:06)
• Tone is irreverent and meta; hosts openly admit their jobs are embarrassing, linking the conversation to the embarrassment of crypto frauds.
• Sets up SBF as the next major public villain.

---

2. Who is Sam Bankman-Fried? Early Life & Privilege

Timestamps: 08:46–21:20

• SBF born in 1992 at Stanford. Both parents are prominent Stanford professors; mother Barbara focused on law and Democratic fundraising, and father Joseph Bankman, a Yale grad who tried to reform California’s tax system.
• Raised amid “America’s liberal aristocracy” with deep connections to elite academia (Stanford, Yale, Harvard, Columbia).
• At home, was immersed in high-minded, philosophical discussions from a young age.
• Satirical visualization of SBF as an insufferable child obsessed with Kant and utilitarian ethics.
• Quote:
  • Robert: “This is a child who at age 8, has strong opinions on Immanuel Kant.” (20:46)
• Robert and Jamie mock SBF’s background as “possibly the most privileged bubble imaginable.”

---

3. The Philosophy Behind the Grift: Effective Altruism & Utilitarianism

Timestamps: 21:24–47:00

• Parents raised SBF and his brother as strict utilitarians, constantly debating the “greatest good for the greatest number.”
• SBF’s formative moment: claimed it was weighing the ethics of abortion at age 12 (22:09), leading to a utilitarian pro-choice stance based on resource allocation, not bodily autonomy.
• Effective Altruism (EA) is introduced: the “do the most good with the least resources” movement popular in Silicon Valley and among mega-rich.
• Critique: Utilitarian/EA logic easily mutates into self-justification for greed and inaction on social policy—eg, paying taxes seen as less effective than “making as much money as possible to later donate as I see fit.”
• SBF’s “earn to give” journey is detailed: after college at MIT, and a stint on Wall Street, SBF devotes himself to becoming a billionaire for the perceived good of humanity, mentored by EA leader William MacAskill.
• Notable satirical quote:
  • Robert (reading from an article): “SBF listened, nodding as MacAskill made his pitch… [to] get filthy rich for charity’s sake. All the rest was merely execution risk.” (37:48)
• Jamie, exasperated: “I swear to God, I fucking hate these people so much.” (38:49)
• Breakdown of the rationalization: risk neutrality as a logical imperative, leading to extreme, reckless risk-taking explained away as ethical.

---

4. Launching the Empire: Alameda Research and FTX

Timestamps: 47:00–64:48

• SBF leaves Jane Street to “minimize his risk by maximizing his risk”—escalating financial gambles as an ethical mandate.
• Cryptocurrency boom in 2017 provides the perfect, unregulated playground.
• SBF exploits a Japan/Korea “kimchi premium”—buys bitcoin low in the US, sells high in Asia with the help of EA friends overseas.
• Launches Alameda Research with fellow utilitarian wunderkinds (e.g. Caroline Ellison and Nishad Singh).
• Robert mocks an article’s “industrial-scale dick-riding” in portraying SBF et al. as compassionate geniuses.
• FTX, a crypto exchange, is established, targeting average investors who want get-rich-quick schemes but don’t understand the risks.
• SBF’s core innovation: create a “bank” (exchange) without actual regulation or transparency—bins all lessons learned from the Great Depression in favor of speed and scale.

---

5. The Great Ponzi: The Mechanics of the Fraud

Timestamps: 64:48–71:11

• FTX offers “15% annualized fixed rate loans… no downside,” promising impossible, guaranteed returns—a classic Ponzi scheme.
• Hosts break down the red flags: promises of stability and solvency are inherently false, and parallel Bernie Madoff’s fraud.
• SBF’s pitch: profits are “guaranteed,” losses are “enforceable under US law” (untrue given crypto’s deregulation).
• Jamie and Robert draw the analogy to casino-style gambling, lampooning SBF’s logic as indistinguishable from drunk Vegas “math,” or, as Robert says: “You are using hundreds of words and high-minded bullshit rhetoric to be be like, gambling is the best way to make money.” (71:18)

---

6. Celebrity Endorsements and Media Manipulation

Timestamps: 11:10–13:40; 91:00–94:49

• FTX ropes in celebrities (Larry David, Shaquille O’Neal, Tom Brady, and others) for Super Bowl ads.
• Class action lawsuits filed against celebrity promoters after FTX collapse.
• Discussion of how SBF “conned” media and the elite: pouring millions into sponsorships (sports arenas, ad campaigns, university partnerships) to build false legitimacy.
• Jamie on Shaq: “Shaquille O'Neal will put his name on anything...including crypto and Halloween.” (12:26)
• Examination of “confidence” tactics—if users see FTX on an NBA arena, they’re reassured their crypto is safe.

---

7. Collapse & Aftermath: How It All Fell Apart

Timestamps: 94:49–103:05

• FTX and Alameda’s books completely cooked: no accounting department, approvals via encrypted messages, majority of user funds either lost or vaporized via gambling.
• Classic “confidence game”—once enough people tried to withdraw funds, the house of cards fell; paper wealth vanished overnight.
• SBF’s net worth plunges 94% in a single day, FTX valuation goes from $32 billion to nearly zero.
• Jamie draws comparisons to Theranos and Elizabeth Holmes; SBF’s business chaos eerily similar to her reckless, consequence-free mismanagement.
• Funniest detail: FTX’s outside accounting firm existed exclusively in the metaverse.

---

8. Family Ties and the Stanford Enclave

Timestamps: 150:01–160:24

• Parents deeply enmeshed in Stanford’s elite community, both ethics professors.
• Post-collapse, SBF on house arrest at the Stanford-owned home; bailout co-signed by Stanford affiliates.
• Stanford tries to keep a low profile, despite his physical presence and public spectacle (students posting his location, etc.).
• Family accepted millions in FTX-funded Bahamas real estate, claiming ignorance of details.
• Joe Bankman’s “ethics” track record includes teaching Peter Thiel how to avoid $1B in taxes.

---

9. Update: Legal Fallout, Island Bunkers, and Diaries

Timestamps: 117:08–182:50

• SBF arrested in the Bahamas, extradited to the US; faces up to 115 years in prison.
• FTX nonprofit arm attempted to purchase the island of Nauru for a “bunker” to save effective altruists from the apocalypse—a real scheme detailed in internal FTX communications (121:44—130:43).
• EA and rationalist circles lampooned for self-serving math justifying mega-wealth and genetic “enhancement” schemes.
• Legal circus post-collapse:
  • SBF ignored legal advice, published a Substack to “exonerate himself” (unsuccessfully).
  • Violated bail conditions repeatedly, ultimately jailed awaiting trial after leaking ex-girlfriend Caroline Ellison’s diary to the New York Times to smear her as she cooperated with prosecutors.
• National media and Stanford social circles become obsessed with SBF’s physical and metaphorical “containment.”
• Ellison, like SBF, was more a “patsy” than true co-conspirator, given much lower compensation and used as smokescreen.
• SBF’s extended EA/Stanford network implicated in the donations, cover-ups, and muted whistle-blowing.

---

10. Final Thoughts and The Fate of SBF

Timestamps: 183:36–186:16

• SBF’s prospects in court are gloomy; prosecutors seek to re-add dropped charges.
• Robert: “I think there’s a pretty good chance he does hard time. He fucked with too many people. He fucked with the money, and he fucked with it in too dumb of a way. So I think he's screwed.” (183:53)
• Jamie: “He doesn't even have… that media narrative… Everything reinforces he's completely incompetent and malicious in every way.” (185:29)
• Hosts reflect on the cyclical, self-justifying nature of Silicon Valley grift—expect SBF to resurface with a new scam in a few years, just like other disgraced founders.

---

11. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On privilege & weird childhoods:

• “This is a child who at age 8, has strong opinions on Immanuel Kant.” – Robert (20:46)
• “I just had a vision of a child sitting at like, a hole dinner and saying derivative. And then someone going, oh, that's amazing.” – Jamie (20:59)

On EA and rationalist bullshit:

• “What they are doing here… is assigning a number that you have made up. There is no objective value… so that whatever it is you want to do with your money, you can justify numerically as the scientifically best way…” – Robert (134:31)
• “The greatest good is me smiling a little bit.” – Jamie (136:28)

On SBF’s con artistry:

• “Classic confidence game… if users see FTX on an NBA arena, they’re reassured their crypto is safe.” – Robert (94:49)
• “He's a confidence man… as long as people are convinced their money is safe and most of them don’t try to pull it out, then you can keep the con going.” – Robert (93:09)

On the SBF update:

• “He has not had a wonderful time… considers his trips across the country to go to court in New York the highlight of his life.” – Robert (181:21)
• “Stop fucking Sam Bankman Fried. That's my… Yes. Yes. This is very bad gross behavior.” – Jamie (181:15)

On effective altruism after the fall:

• “If effective altruism can be said to have a Pope… it’s Will McCaskill. When FTX collapsed and Sam got arrested, he was quick to put out a statement of outrage… Now, the only reason I would hesitate to call this horseshit… is that horseshit, by virtue of being inanimate waste, possesses a fundamental honesty that McCaskill is incapable of.” – Robert (143:43)

On Stanford privilege:

• “Everything you find about these people is friends talking about, ‘It's so shocking this could happen…’ They were so concerned about ethics. They raised their sons like little adults… How could this have gone wrong?” – Robert (159:12)

---

Key Timestamps for Reference

• 03:37 Prison industrial complex/Elizabeth Holmes parallels set up
• 08:46 SBF’s privileged early life
• 13:41 SBF’s parents and academic background
• 21:24 Utilitarianism/EA family dinners; how childhood shaped worldview
• 38:49 “I swear to God, I fucking hate these people so much.”
• 47:00 Early career, effective altruism, and career “risk math”
• 64:48 FTX’s Ponzi structure revealed
• 71:11 Gambling analogies and media manipulation
• 91:58 The role of celebrity, naming rights, and regulatory capture
• 94:49 How the fraud collapsed, the lack of basic infrastructure in FTX
• 121:44 Nauru bunker scheme explained
• 150:01 SBF’s parents, Stanford, and bail arrangements
• 171:25 SBF leaks Caroline Ellison’s diary; legal repercussions
• 183:53 Will SBF get off? Hosts’ predictions

---

Conclusion

With their trademark sharp wit and thorough research, Robert Evans and Jamie Loftus deliver a scathing critique of Sam Bankman-Fried, effective altruism culture, and the enabling milieu of Silicon Valley and elite academia. The case of SBF becomes both a cautionary tale and a darkly funny emblem of how rationalization, privilege, and the promise of “doing good” can mask the deepest, dumbest kind of greed.

---

This episode is essential listening for anyone following tech scandals, crypto meltdowns, or the psychology behind modern financial frauds. It’s also a punchy reminder that in late-stage capitalism, the math always seems to add up for the guys in shorts playing League of Legends on company time—until it doesn’t.

Transcript

[Jamie Loftus]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Robert Evans]

Guaranteed Human hey, Ryan Reynolds here wishing you a very happy half off holiday because right now Mint Mobile is offering you the gift of 50% off unlimited. To be clear, that's half price, not half the service. Mint is still premium unlimited wireless for a great price.

[Jamie Loftus]

So that means a half day.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan.

[Ad Read - Washable Sofas]

Equivalent to $15 per month required new.

[Jamie Loftus]

Customer offer for first three months only.

[Ad Read - Washable Sofas]

Speed slow after 30 gigabytes of networks.

[Robert Evans]

Busy taxes and fees extra.

[Ad Read - NordicTrack]

Cmintmobile.com the only thing between you and your best self is a start button this Black Friday Explore the world with NordicTrack from the peaks of Peru to the streets of Paris, every workout moves you somewhere new with IFIT trainers leading the way. The equipment's amazing, smooth, quiet and those screens make it all feel real. Ready to start your next workout adventure with the number one treadmill brand in the U.S. shop NordicTrack.com for Black Friday savings. NordicTrack train anywhere. Explore everywhere.

[Ad Read - Washable Sofas]

There's nothing like sinking into luxury. Annabe sofas combine ultimate comfort and design at an affordable price. Annabe has designed the only fully machine washable sofa from top to bottom. The stain resistant performance fabric slipcovers and cloud like frame duvet can go straight into your wash. Perfect for anyone with kids, pets or anyone who loves an easy to clean spotless sofa. With a modular design and changeable slipcovers, you can customize your sofa to fit space and style. Whether you need a single chair loveseat or a luxuriously large sectional, Anna Bay has you covered. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your home. Sofas start at just $699 and right now get early access to Black Friday savings. Up to 60% off store wide with a 30 day money back guarantee. Shop [e-mail] Add a little to your life. Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Robert Evans]

Season three of Sniffy's Cruising Confessions is here. Hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson Rosso are going deeper than ever with bold new conversations, fresh guests and unfiltered takes on queer sex and cruising. This season they're also looking out for the community covering smart cruising in a chaotic world, including information on prep and yes, their call in segment is getting even hotter and they'll react to your wildest Cruising confessions on air. No pressure. Tune in to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions sponsored by Healthy Sexual from Gilead Sciences, with new episodes every Thursday on the iHeartRadio app or where wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sophie]

Media.

[Jamie Loftus]

Ah.

[Robert Evans]

God is dead and you, Jamie Loftus, have killed him.

[Jamie Loftus]

I did it. I finally did it.

[Robert Evans]

You did it. You did it. No, God was a him and Jamie killed him. Hammer to the back of the head.

[Jamie Loftus]

And, and people are going to be critical of that. But, you know, you don't know my story. And in my six part miniseries in which I'm played by Amanda Seyfried, I think you're going to start to see my side of the story and I'm definitely not going to jail for what I did.

[Robert Evans]

That's good. Unlike founder of Theranos, Elizabeth Holmes, who we just found out has been sentenced to 11.25 years in, in prison. I'm kind of like, yeah, I have.

[Jamie Loftus]

Mixed, like I have mixed feelings because it's like people don't go, first of all, the prison industrial complex in general.

[Robert Evans]

It doesn't make anyone better. To the extent that there's value in the present day and putting people in prison, it's people who are like a severe ongoing danger. And I don't see this making anything better. Like, at the same time, I hate her, so I don't. I'm not going to.

[Jamie Loftus]

She's.

[Robert Evans]

It's not, it's not going to be the top injustice I rue today.

[Jamie Loftus]

I do kind of like that her, after being exposed as an unrepentant criminal, she's like, oh, I think I'm just gonna kinda be like a normie girl for a while and I'm gonna, I'm.

[Robert Evans]

Gonna go normcore and have a kid. Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

And you're like, liz, it's too late. It's too late for that.

[Robert Evans]

Liz, you defrauded people with a fake medical device that led folks to seek to get treatment for things they didn't have and ignore illnesses they did, which is bad.

[Jamie Loftus]

That caught before too many bodies hit the floor. But that would have. Stop.

[Robert Evans]

But you didn't really care. You applied Steve Jobs logic to something that was not just a silly box to keep in your pocket.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, Lizzie, Lizzie, Lizzie, Lizzie, Lizzie's stock again.

[Robert Evans]

Also putting her in prison for probably nine years. When you consider all of the other things is not going to help anything. It'll just mean that that kid she has grows up without a mom for nine years. And that's not gonna make the world better.

[Jamie Loftus]

It's like, it's a huge moment. For many things can be true at once.

[Robert Evans]

Yes.

[Jamie Loftus]

Having to hold all of those truths and still record an Episode of Behind the Bastards. I.

[Robert Evans]

Can I. This actually, this actually will be relevant to the episode, but. Yes, please.

[Jamie Loftus]

Wait, really?

[Sophie]

Yes.

[Jamie Loftus]

Okay.

[Robert Evans]

Yes.

[Jamie Loftus]

This is definitely not going to be relevant. So let's, let's. I was a legal case I was thinking about today was the Beanie Babies billionaire. When he went was taken to court in 2013 for holding money in a Swiss bank account. He. So it was like a tax evaluation.

[Robert Evans]

Was that illegal? Oh, a tax evasion.

[Jamie Loftus]

Tax evasion charge. So he was up for as many as five years in prison for tax evasion. Then he got off with. I mean, he's a billionaire. He's never gonna suffer a consequence. Right. But like he ended up getting a two years of probation on the ground that it had been too publicly humiliating. So he didn't have to get to go to jail because he was awesome.

[Robert Evans]

So funny.

[Jamie Loftus]

It was so embarrassing that he didn't have to go to jail.

[Robert Evans]

What?

[Jamie Loftus]

That's absolutely fudgeing weird. Anyways, I'm going to.

[Robert Evans]

I'm going to see how far this goes by committing murder and then having my pants fall down and like. Well, judge, look. Yes, I did stab that man 47 times, but then everybody saw my underpants. Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

I pee peed myself.

[Robert Evans]

So I feel like that.

[Jamie Loftus]

That ought to be square.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. Can we just zero this one out?

[Jamie Loftus]

Man, I love the Beanie Babies story so much. I'm surrounded by my beans. Feeling safe.

[Robert Evans]

Wow, that's good. You do literally have one on your shoulder right now.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, Patty the platypus.

[Robert Evans]

Just. Just like I have this rifle next to me.

[Jamie Loftus]

I think that we both have our comfort objects at the ready. That's right.

[Robert Evans]

So, Jamie, speaking of Elizabeth Holmes, because the person we're talking about today is going to be the next story like that. By this time next year, there probably is going to be an HBO documentary about this guy.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, God.

[Robert Evans]

Maybe Taylor Kitsch could probably play him actually, if he wanted to. Really like round that out. Taylor Kitsch played hot David Koresh in the Waco Show. Oh, Jesus.

[Jamie Loftus]

Guy walked into that one.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. They'd have to give him like a belly suit or something that's not anti fat. I'm just being accurate. But he could do it.

[Jamie Loftus]

Maybe.

[Robert Evans]

That is. Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

I don't want to see this man ever again. No, I'm mad.

[Robert Evans]

Taylor Kitsch. You don't want to see Taylor Kitsch again?

[Jamie Loftus]

No.

[Robert Evans]

You don't want to see those cum gutters again. Unbelievable.

[Sophie]

God damn it, Robert.

[Jamie Loftus]

There's plenty of in this town, Robert. There's a Million cum gutters. I don't need those. I don't need those.

[Robert Evans]

Oh, that is true. But anyway.

[Jamie Loftus]

Someone runs through the street.

[Robert Evans]

That is true of Los Angeles and no other city. Today we are talking about a guy who absolutely never comes. Sam Bankman, Fried. Why does you know this guy? Do you know this guy?

[Jamie Loftus]

I don't know this guy.

[Robert Evans]

You don't know this guy? You don't know this guy? Have you. Have you caught any news in the last week about how, like, a massive cryptocurrency exchange has collapsed? Plummeting.

[Jamie Loftus]

I did hear about that.

[Robert Evans]

This is that guy.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, my God.

[Robert Evans]

This is the guy with his, like, polyamorous sex ring that was running a big crypto bank in the Bahamas and it all fell apart and now billions of dollars are gone.

[Jamie Loftus]

You've lost me again.

[Robert Evans]

Oh, great. Okay, well, I'll try to. This is still breaking. We are. Because this is a Thanksgiving week episode. We only do one episode on Thanksgivings. I needed a single one. So I just want to give everyone background on this guy. We may come back to this story because there's a lot we don't fully understand about how he did what he did and the degree to which. But the gist of this is that this guy ran a trading service called Alameda Research and a crypto exchange. An exchange exchange is basically like a bank. Right. It's a cross between a bank and, like, a trading platform called ftx, which was one of the largest cryptocurrency exchanges in the world and was also considered by most people to be the most stable and, like, ethical and legitimate. Right. People who were just kind of on the outside looking it when everything collapsed earlier this year. Right. You remember that? We had that big.

[Jamie Loftus]

I was engaged in that. It's just that I get a lot of my news.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

Journalists on Twitter and they've been busy this week.

[Robert Evans]

Yes. So when that. When the. When crypto, like, fell apart, when a lot of crypto fell apart earlier this year and, like, a bunch of places went under. FTX was one of the ones that stayed stable and actually were buying up a bunch of, like, failing crypto companies to try to, like, prop up the industry. They just collapsed. And, like, the value of all. Everything has been plummeting for. For the last several days. It's a big disaster. It is very light. Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

In. In. In. As. In words that will annoy me as little as possible. Can you explain why FTS remained solvent and other.

[Robert Evans]

It is not solvent. Oh, now why. But, like, why did it outlast because they lied. So they were. They were operating the short end of how to describe it. And we may. There will be more details to come, but at present it seems fair to say that it was a giant Ponzi scheme where they were. They were. They were taking in money, promising unreasonable returns, using other investor money to gamble on stuff to try to provide anyway. And it worked.

[Jamie Loftus]

Like all the other market guys, they were. They were dishonest.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, it is. It is very likely. What differentiates this is the scale, because this is very likely a financial crime on the level of what Bernie Madoff did. We are talking in the 10 to 20 billion dollars stolen. A lot of money. This is a serious financial crime.

[Jamie Loftus]

I'm going in on this pretty cold. So I'm. I'm listening.

[Robert Evans]

So it. For the other. The other kind of mass, like touchstone of this is that it has led to a class action lawsuit against Larry David, Shaquille o', Neal, Tom Brady and a number of celebrities who were all in a Super bowl ad for ftx.

[Jamie Loftus]

I remember that ad that was so embarrassing for my man Larry Shaquille.

[Robert Evans]

The lawsuit is basically Shaquille will advertise. Basically this was a high dollar Ponzi scheme and you guys were using your name recognition to sell unregistered securities. Which they were. Which they were. Which they definitely were.

[Jamie Loftus]

Sorry, I just want to circle back to Shaquille. Shaquille o' Neal will put his name on anything to the point where. To the point where.

[Robert Evans]

Very funny.

[Jamie Loftus]

I worked at a haunted hayride this year, which we don't talk about because it was a bad idea. But the rival.

[Robert Evans]

I told Sophie that.

[Jamie Loftus]

What you told Sophie told me it was a bad idea. I told her, I'm alive, bitch. I lived.

[Sophie]

I supported it.

[Jamie Loftus]

I lived to tell the tale. It's very unclear who is right in the side of should I work at a haunted hayride or not? I still haven't really landed on an answer. Point being our closest rival haunted hayride wise was Shacktoberfest. It was wow, Shack themed haunted attraction in which the only shack related thing was a gigantic inflatable Frankenstein that looked like Shaq. Which did sound awesome.

[Robert Evans]

That sounds actually like the best time anyone's ever had.

[Jamie Loftus]

I love Shaq. Will put his name on anything, including Crypto and Halloween.

[Robert Evans]

Supportive of us. What a. What a king. Probably not. I'm sure there's horrible things about Shaq that have come out that seems almost unavoidable. Anyway, Sam Bankman Fried is the guy behind this gigantic financial crime that is still unraveling as we do this episode. And I want to talk about less about what happened on the exchange because none of us want to talk about how somebody carries out the nuts and bolts of a cryptocurrency scam. But I want to talk about. I want to talk about the social elements of the scam. I want to talk about how he conned the media, how he conned celebrities and how he conned regulators. And I just want to talk about also the way some of these people talked and wrote about him because there's a lot about. I don't know. A week or so ago we did an episode on the Daily Show. We do it could happen here about ethical altruism, which is in brief, a theory that like instead of trying to help people just because they need help, you should only help people after you consider the way to help people. That is like the absolute most beneficial way for like the least amount of effort. It's utilitarianism. Right. How can I do the greatest good with the least resources and one not.

[Jamie Loftus]

The least amount of. Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

And it's the way a lot of these like. And it's merged with this kind of thinking towards what billionaire types call long termism. And the gist of this is like it's not worthwhile for me to do stuff like pay taxes to have a society or guarantee like universal healthcare. Instead I should make. Instead the most ethical thing that I should do is make as much money as I personally can and then put that money into things that I believe will save the world. World like research to stop AIs from killing everyone and getting to Mars. And it's a way for billionaires really fast trains. It's a way for billionaires and the other mega rich to justify like continuing to do exactly what they want and feel like they're saving the world. Anyway.

[Jamie Loftus]

Sam Bankman Fried guy from Beanie Baby. You know the Beanie Babies billionaire did to improve the world, made a lot of Beanie Babies and then he bought the Four Seasons Hotel and kept making Beanie Babies. He didn't do.

[Robert Evans]

That's. Well, you know, that's. I'm fine with that compared to these guys because they're all doing the Elon Musk thing where they're pretending. Anyway, Sam Bankman Fried is one of these guys and we're going to get into that. But we did this episode on It Could Happen Here where he was kind of a tangential character in this very unsettling and insidious movement that is behind guys like Elon Musk, who are claiming to be saving the world while just fucking over people. And then like four days after it came out, his entire life unraveled and his fortune disappeared overnight because he was a giant con artist.

[Jamie Loftus]

What a treat.

[Robert Evans]

It's very funny. So that's why we're talking about him right now. Yeah, he's like.

[Sophie]

He's like 30 years old and looks like Mark Zuckerberg and David Dobrik's love child.

[Jamie Loftus]

He's 30 years old. I feel great about myself right now.

[Sophie]

He's a Mark Zuckerberg and David Dobrik's love child.

[Robert Evans]

Look, I shouldn't call anyone a schlub, but he looks like a schlub.

[Jamie Loftus]

I forget what David Dobrik looked like because my brain protects myself.

[Sophie]

Respectfully, I understand.

[Jamie Loftus]

Two villains. Two villains. Love child.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. Anyway, so I. Yeah. Sam Bankman Fried was born in 1992 on the campus of Stanford University, continuing a long and proud tradition of absolutely nothing good ever coming from that hellhole. His parents are both extremely prominent Stanford professors. His mother, Barbara, is a lawyer who clerked for the 2nd Circuit Court and graduated from Harvard. She founded Mind the Gap, a somewhat shady and mysterious Democratic fundraiser racing group. I think it's shady in that people don't exactly know where all the money comes from or like, what their goals are. She also pinned Shady. Yeah, yeah. She also pinned an essay in 2013 that the right wing is going nuts about because she was basically arguing that like, good and evil are less a factor in what people do than environmental factors and all that stuff. Like when people do things that are bad, it's more often a product of their. It was kind of a. Oh, God, what's that? Fucking psychologist? It was like a Skinner type argument where it's like, well, if people have bad inputs in their youth, then that's going to determine anyway. I think that's funny. Given what happens, I'm gonna guess she sucks at what she sucks. And so does his dad, Joseph Bankman. Joseph is also a lawyer. He is a graduate from Yale. His big claim to fame was developing a proposal for an overhaul of the California tax return system that would have filled out citizens tax returns in advance. And I know I just said he suc. But actually that sounds like a good thing. I think that that's actually a cool thing to advocate for. The measure failed by one vote after heavy lobbying from Intuit, a tax prep software company. Yeah, it kind of is. It's. It's total bullshit because stuff. It's the thing everybody agrees with on paper. But nobody will actually fight the tax prep companies, which is like, hey, the IRS like, knows more or less what I make and, like, knows more or less what I owe. Why don't I just get a thing from them? Why do I have to go through this like, like, Anyway, there's no need.

[Jamie Loftus]

But it's like, that's the only other.

[Robert Evans]

Countries do it that way. We don't though. And it's right.

[Jamie Loftus]

Well, because there has to be a convoluted system that's expensive and where they can charge you if you make the tiniest mistake because you can't read size one font.

[Robert Evans]

Well, and more to the point, because I don't actually think the IRS is advocating to keep it a pain in the ass. I think it's these tax prep companies because they have an entire industry based on charging people to do the thing that they have to do to avoid going to fucking prison. Anyway, I said he's an asshole, and I'm sure he is, but he was right about this and I don't know what to say about that. Like all of us. Joseph is also a podcaster. He is the host of the co host of the Stanford Legal podcast.

[Sophie]

Oh, in some horrible times too.

[Jamie Loftus]

And he's a nerd.

[Robert Evans]

If it wasn't the holiday season and I wasn't like, getting ready for friends and family and all that, that good stuff, I would have listened to his podcast and we would probably be making fun of him. But you can do that on your own.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, my goodness.

[Robert Evans]

I believe in you.

[Jamie Loftus]

Isn't it? Doesn't it feel so horrible when you think of how many people do what we do, but they're the worst person you've ever heard of? It's so sad. It's embarrassing.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, it's. It's like, I don't know.

[Jamie Loftus]

I avoid self identifying as a podcaster as it is. It's still not a system. But then on top of that, they're like, oh, like what? Like what?

[Robert Evans]

I mean, you know, you know, the only, you know, the only thing that I can compare it to is like, when I started making a living as a writer 15 years ago, and I would say that at like a party or something, someone asked like, well, what do you do? And I'm like, well, I'm a writer. And like four other people would say, yeah, me too. And then you wind up listening to everybody's pitches for their novels that they're never going to finish.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, I mean, it's the same thing.

[Robert Evans]

So eventually I just started Lying and saying that I still worked at special Ed.

[Jamie Loftus]

Well, I like. I mean, it's the same thing with, like, if you say you're a comedian in a party, you're about to have a life.

[Robert Evans]

Oh, God, no. Never, never identify as a comedian in public. Oh, me.

[Jamie Loftus]

Do you. And I've done one whole open mic and my joke was very offensive. And isn't it a comedian's job to push boundaries and be. Oh, tell me your joke.

[Robert Evans]

You know how Lenny Bruce read that list of curse words? Well, I just do that with slurs. Here, let me show you.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, you're like, yeah, like, Liam Bruce was not funny in that period of his career, even a little. Anyways. Anyways, our jobs are embarrassing is what I'm saying.

[Robert Evans]

Anyway, our jobs are indeed embarrassing. So as you might guess from all of that, Sam was born into what amounts to America's, like, liberal aristocracy. He is a fucking coastal elite. Right. This kid grows up on the Stanford campus to Stanford professors. One of his aunts teaches at Columbia University, is like a professor there.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, so he's like.

[Robert Evans]

He has close family connections to employees at Yale and at Harvard as well as Stanford. Like, his parents both go to Harvard. I think he's a little Kennedy. He is a. Yeah, he's that. He is, as you do not get much more of a rarefied, like, intellectual air.

[Jamie Loftus]

He's wearing linens around. This is how I think about.

[Robert Evans]

Yes. This is a child who at age 8, has strong opinions on Immanuel Kant.

[Jamie Loftus]

Which again, of cheer for him at the table.

[Robert Evans]

No. Oh, we're about to get into that. Jamie Loftus.

[Jamie Loftus]

I just had a vision of a child sitting at like, a hole dinner and saying derivative. And then someone going, oh, that's amazing. Wow, he is really coming along, isn't he?

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. This is a little kid that when he, like, sits down at the doctor's office, pulls out a fucking, I don't know, Derrida or something book. Just so you know. Just so you know, he knows fancy philosophers.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

God damn it.

[Jamie Loftus]

Board book.

[Robert Evans]

So his parents and his. Raised him and his brother to be utilitarians. One of the articles about them, I.

[Jamie Loftus]

Found that into spongebob.

[Robert Evans]

Okay. Yeah, yeah. I was. I was raised to hassle cows in our back 40 his parents nights. So this article notes that nights around the family dinner table often focused around debates about how to do the greatest good for the greatest number of people. In later interviews with. I'm going to get to this guy in a second. The absolute dick writing is journalist to Ever ride Dick Sam would claim that his most formative moment came at age 12 when he was weighing arguments around the abortion debate. So first off.

[Jamie Loftus]

No point one. No, because. Because not only no, also, like, in the context of like, where would he have been doing this?

[Robert Evans]

I'm guessing at like around the family table or when they have the all, you know, everybody's got their brandy and he's drinking some sort of fucking so tea that's insufferable. And they're all talking about people's rights as if it's like a fun intellectual problem, like how to fix it.

[Jamie Loftus]

Because for them it is. Because wherever they land, the rules aren't going to apply to them anyways.

[Robert Evans]

Yes.

[Jamie Loftus]

Where does he fall? Where does he fall in the debate?

[Robert Evans]

That's a great question. So I'm going to quote now from an article previously published by Sequoia Capital and written by Adam Fisher, who should never be allowed to lift this article down. When I say the dick writingist, like fucking PR flack journal. It's on. It's. It's shameful. Quote. A rights based theorist might argue that there aren't really any discontinuous differences as a fetus becomes a child and thus fetus murder is essentially child murder. The utilitarian argument compares the consequences of each. The loss of an actual child's life, a life in which a great deal of parental and societal resources have been invested, is much more consequential than the loss of a potential life in utero. And thus to a utilitarian, abortion looks more like birth control than like murder. SBF. That's what they always call him. The Kid Sam. SBF's application of utilitarianism helped him resolve some nagging doubts he had about the ethics of abortion. It made him feel comfortable being pro choice, as his friends, family and peers were. He saw the essential rightness of his philosophical faith. So that's very fucked up. That is, that is so de. Like, the term choice is used at the very end there. But it's clear that like, like he's not thinking about this in terms of like the actual value of human bodily autonomy. That does not weigh into utilitarian calculus for him whatsoever.

[Jamie Loftus]

No, that is, I would argue, my friend Robert. No, no, no.

[Robert Evans]

And again, even, like, look, I shit reflexively sometimes on utilitarianism, not because of the inherent value or disvalue of thinking that way, but about the way it gets talked about by these people. But like, if you're actually a utilitarian and you care about the greatest good for the greatest number of people, then bodily autonomy should factor into that, right? Like, human bodily autonomy should be hugely important to you. Yes, but, no, that's not logical. All that matters is, like, well, how many. If you've reserved. If less resources than this have been invested in the fetus, then it's not a person. So abortion makes. That's fucking bullshit logic. Fuck you.

[Jamie Loftus]

You're doing too much math.

[Robert Evans]

Stopping up. This isn't a math problem, Sam. Like, this is not a math problem. Not everything's a goddamn math problem, Robert.

[Jamie Loftus]

He won't listen to you unless you call him sbf. And I was like, why is Robert talking about sunscreen?

[Robert Evans]

We'll get that. They all call him sbf, and I hate it. But also, as this went on, I started using it more and more because it's a pain in the ass to type his whole last name out. Look, I. This is one where I'm not going to give him a pass. But I get it. If you write about this fucker a lot, it does make it easier. So, anyway, all of this is very bad. But you know what's not bad, Jamie? Well, the products and services that support this podcast.

[Jamie Loftus]

No, that's not true. They are.

[Robert Evans]

That's. Well, I checked.

[Jamie Loftus]

Hold on. I just ran a quick check on that. And you can't guarantee even 1%.

[Robert Evans]

But. But what about the greatest good for the greatest number of. Of people? And. And given that I'm. I'm a people, so it works out pretty well. It works out very well for me.

[Jamie Loftus]

I think that if you actually have more advertising revenue, you will actually build a really fast train like you've been promising me you would.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. Yeah, I'm gonna. I'm gonna build the Hyperloop.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah. Yeah, and you've been saying that.

[Robert Evans]

I'm gonna promise you one thing. It's gonna kill a hell of a lot more people than that Simpsons monorail did.

[Jamie Loftus]

And that. And I'm gonna. And look, not everyone is gonna hold you to task for that. But I am.

[Robert Evans]

Thank you, Jamie. Thank you for keeping me honest and ensuring that we really make a memorable disaster.

[Jamie Loftus]

Look, I'm available anytime. I'm not visiting my friend Liz in jail.

[Robert Evans]

Mm.

[Ad Read - NordicTrack]

The only thing between you and your best self is a start button. This Black Friday. Explore the world with NordicTrack. From the peaks of Peru to the streets of Paris, every workout moves you somewhere new. With iFit trainers leading the way. The equipment's amazing, Smooth, quiet. And those screens make it all feel real. Ready to start your next workout adventure with the number one treadmill brand in the US. Shop NordicTrack.com for Black Friday savings. NordicTrack train anywhere explore everywhere.

[Ad Read - Washable Sofas]

There's nothing like sinking into luxury. Anabe sofas combine ultimate comfort and design at an affordable price. Annabe has designed the only fully machine washable sofa. From top to bottom. The stain resistant performance fabric slipcovers and cloud like frame duvet can go straight into your wash. Perfect for anyone with kids, pets or anyone who loves an easy to clean spotless sofa. With a modular design and changeable slipcovers, you can customize your sofa to fit any space and style. Whether you need a single chair, loveseat or a luxuriously large sectional, Anna Bay has you covered. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your home. Sofas start at just $699 and right now get early access to Black Friday savings up to 60% off storewide with a 30 day money back guarantee. Shop [e-mail] Add a little to your life. Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Ad Read - Vizio TV]

Ready to go Big Vizio's super sized 100 inch QLED TV is now available at Walmart for only $16.98. Immerse yourself in breathtaking color and contrast with cutting edge QLED on a screen so large it transforms any room into your personal theater. And with Watch Free plus built in, you'll enjoy free live and on demand TV right out of the box. You can even stream your favorite music and podcasts with the iHeartRadio app. Head to Walmart.com and bring home the Vizio 160 inch QLED TV today for only $16.98.

[Ad Read - Famous Footwear]

Hey, I'm Steffi. You may know me from your social feed. I go big for the holidays so I'm going to Famous Footwear because the best gifts are giving Famous. My friends and family are gonna love all these styles from Nike, Adidas, Crocs, New Balance, Skechers and more. With over 800 stores, you're never far from the perfect gift. So make your list and make it famous. Come in today for buy one pair. Get one half off at your local famous footwear or famous.com some exclusions apply.

[Robert Evans]

We are back. What a good time. So Sam Bankman Fried is above all else a numbers guy. And I guess as a kid he was a numbers kid. His parents sent him to Crystal Springs Uplands, a fancy prep school in Hillsborough, California. I looked through the website because I wanted to make fun of it, but it just Kind of seems like a really fancy school. I don't know. I'm sure it's a great place to get an education. They make, they put a lot of. I will tell this, they devote a lot of screen resources to letting you know that they are not racist and that most of their students aren't white. They also have a French. They also have a French cinema class for sixth graders, which is fine, but the cranky asshole in me that still has a little piece of my soul raised by right wing radio wants to say shit about it.

[Jamie Loftus]

I was raised by, by left wing people. And I still think that that's some loser, man. I think that that's dorky and goofy and like should. It's like what, you know, you meet. Because you meet people like that in the wild and they're sometimes there and maybe even often very sweet people. But I'm like trying to be like, oh, you know who Plankton is? And they're like, no. And then. But they've been watching French movies since they were like seven. And I just don't expect that if.

[Robert Evans]

I meet a sixth grader with. Yeah, if I meet a sixth grader with strong opinions about French cinema, like, I'm just gonna leave. I'm gonna leave. I'm just gonna walk away.

[Jamie Loftus]

Wow, Robert, that's really brave of you to march out of a conversation with an 11 year old.

[Robert Evans]

I am not. I'm not putting up with that shit. Absolutely not.

[Jamie Loftus]

I'm leaving this sixth grade class. My name's Robert Evans and I'm getting.

[Robert Evans]

The fuck out of here, doofuses. Fucking go watch your. What? Renoir. Is that one of them? That sounds like one of them. Cloud Renoir. Is he a painter or he make movies?

[Jamie Loftus]

Renoir is a painter. I know the one you're looking for and I was looking for it too, but I don't remember. But guess who. Do you know who Plankton is? Of course you do.

[Robert Evans]

I know who Plankton is. And I also know that at least one of the directors they study is a pedophile. Just knowing a little bit about French cinema, that's unavoidable. So he does well again, the school's probably fine. He does well at the school. He was notable, incredibly insular. He avoided most of his classmates to play Starcraft, which is good, and League of Legends, which objectively sucks. He also played a lot of magic the Gathering, so I am confident he did not get laid in high school. This is based on extensive personal experience.

[Jamie Loftus]

Like, I just actually did some field.

[Robert Evans]

Research and yeah, about four years of it.

[Jamie Loftus]

Okay. Interesting.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. For college, he was accepted to and attended mit, which marked out his family's elite North American university punch card. They really hit them all now. Now that they've got an MIT kid.

[Jamie Loftus]

In the family, they get a free coffee. There used to be an mit, so when I was doing comedy in Boston, there was like, MIT had like a secret comedy club that was just for MIT students and it was awful.

[Robert Evans]

Oh, I'll bet that's. Oh, God.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, they paid you. Okay. But it was like, they're like. If you, like, knew someone who, like, met someone who went to MIT and they came to your shows and they were like, oh, we. We've. We did the math and you are allowed to come to our. They called it their speakeasy. I wonder if it's still around. It was so.

[Sophie]

It was, I mean, insufficient.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

Not a fun crowd, I will say, but best of luck to whatever was going on there.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

So he goes to mit.

[Robert Evans]

He goes to mit.

[Jamie Loftus]

He might have been at one of those shows. We're on stage.

[Robert Evans]

He might have because he joins a fraternity there. And mit. Well, Jamie, it's an MIT specific co ed nerd fraternity.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, nice. What could go wrong?

[Robert Evans]

Epsilon Theta. And here's how Adam Fisher, the guy I hate, described them in his article, which was bad. A co ed fraternity of super geeks similarly interested in magic and video games. Thetans are fond of debating math, physics, computer science, linguistics, philosophy and logic problems for fun at alcohol free parties. Now, I do know a little bit about mit and I know another thing these nerds often do is kill themselves using nitrous oxide because they will try to flood entire rooms with nitrous to do like a 20% nitrous to O2 ratio and kill themselves. It's a thing that happens. Look it up. MIT nitrous death. Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

All I did in college was drink too many blue moons.

[Robert Evans]

It's. It's. It's quite a thing.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yikes.

[Robert Evans]

So I don't know.

[Jamie Loftus]

What are you doing over there?

[Robert Evans]

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how much I believe that. That they were always alcohol and drug free parties. Because if there's one thing I know from nerds, it's that they do a shitload of drugs.

[Jamie Loftus]

I definitely didn't hear of this one because I went to a couple MIT frat parties and they were not sober. Fun fact one, the one of the MIT frat parties, I went to some for some reason when I was in college and I would get really drunk. I would always. I would like. I would. I like to, like, steal things from wherever I was. And so I stole two critical pool balls from an MIT frat house, and someone was able to trace it back to me, and they demanded their pool balls back. And I, embarrassingly, I think I capitulated. I think I did give them back. I shouldn't.

[Robert Evans]

Wow. Wow. Actually, so this one kid I'm finding in 99 died because he put a bag over his head to inhale nitrous, which is. Fuck, man. How did you get into mit?

[Jamie Loftus]

I don't know any.

[Robert Evans]

I don't know. We shouldn't be making fun of this guy. But don't put bags. Don't put bags over your head, kids.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

Fucking nuts.

[Jamie Loftus]

I learned that in public school, no less.

[Robert Evans]

So many other ways to do whippets than putting a plastic bag over your head. Anyway, whatever. According. Next, according to the popular Sam Bankman fried endorsed version of the story, he pivoted towards an almost obsessive devotion to ethics. In his freshman year, he went vegan. He organized a protest against factory farming, and he worried obsessively over how he could change the world for the better. And it was at this point that Sam met a man who was going to change his life forever. William McGaskill. If you want to learn more about this guy, I do recommend the episode of It Could Happen Here on Effective Altruism. This guy is today the pop philosopher of effective altruism and long termism. He is in Elon Musk's text messages that we all got as a result of the Twitter lawsuit. At this point, he was also at mit and he met with Sam at a cafe in Cambridge, Massachusetts, where McCasky.

[Jamie Loftus]

Which one? Which one?

[Robert Evans]

Which one? I don't know. I'm sure it's out there somewhere. Jamie, I'm sure you've gotten a hot dog there. That seems likely.

[Jamie Loftus]

No, any place this guy's going, it doesn't have hot dogs. They're not ethical. They're famously unethical.

[Robert Evans]

So, yeah, you're probably right. So McCaskill explained the concept of effective altruism to him, which is, again, this idea that, like, what matters is you should, like, think kind of coldly and robotically about how you do. How help to make sure that your charity money does the most that it can do. One of the big arguments about it is that, like, okay, well, what if you, you know, should you save a drowning child instead of saving, like, three kids from a burning Building. And it's like, that's a nonsense choice. Nobody's ever been presented with that choice at any point in the history of the human race. Not a reasonable. That is not a. There's no point to that ethical argument. You're not smart for debating it.

[Jamie Loftus]

Have just dropped Robert. Yeah, and it makes no sense.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, it makes no fucking sense. There's, like, bits of it that are reasonable, which is that, like, well, you know, it makes sense to, like, look at the best thing you can do financially, you know, in terms of donating money is, you know, malaria prevention, because it winds up being the most cost effective thing. But it's like, okay, does that mean we shouldn't put money into making the water in Flint, Michigan, drinkable? And a lot of these guys will say no, because that's not the best use of money. And it's like, well, we could do many things with money, especially if we tax billionaires and put it towards rebuilding infrastructure structure. A number of things can be done.

[Jamie Loftus]

What? Sorry.

[Robert Evans]

Anyway, whatever.

[Jamie Loftus]

Elon's shitty.

[Robert Evans]

McCaskill kind of pills this guy on effective altruism. He frames it as a strategic investment whose success was measured in populations worth of human lives. He estimated, using back of the envelope math that $2,000 could save one life. And so a million dollars could save 500 people, a billion could save half a million, and a trillion dollars could theoretically save half a billion lives based on that totally legitimate math.

[Jamie Loftus]

People are math, Robert.

[Robert Evans]

People are math. It all works out that way.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

Based. Based on that absolutely real math. The only ethical way for a genius like Sam to use his time and talents is to become the world's first trillionaire. And I'm going to quote again from that article that I hate. SBF listened, nodding as Ms. Caskill made his pitch. The earn to give logic was airtight. It was SBF realized applied utilitarianism. Knowing what he had to do, SBF simply said, yep, that makes sense. But right there, between a bright yellow sunshade and the crumb strewn red brick floor, SBF's purpose in life was set. He was going to get filthy rich for charity's sake. All the rest was merely execution risk. His course established, McCaskill gave SBF one less navigational nudge to set him on his way, suggesting that SBF get an internship at Jane street that summer. And so, for the good of mankind, for the good of mankind, get in the finance industry and gamble like a motherfucker.

[Jamie Loftus]

Asshole. I swear to God, I fucking hate.

[Robert Evans]

These people so much.

[Jamie Loftus]

What? Oh, God. Makes sense. Yeah. You know, look, I think that.

[Robert Evans]

Airtight. Airtight. I can't debate that. There's no argument to be made about that logic, Jamie.

[Jamie Loftus]

I mean, I know that this is the wrong person to be turning on in this moment, but this is the dick, right? Writing ist language.

[Robert Evans]

This is the day, Jamie. He has not begun to ride dick. This is.

[Jamie Loftus]

This is choking.

[Robert Evans]

He is choking on the thing.

[Jamie Loftus]

So this man's got no gag reflex and no sign of slowing down.

[Robert Evans]

Jamie, I'm gonna read you some passages from this that are going to make you gag. It is unbearable. So. And it's like, this article is, like 10,000 fucking words. It took me, like, an hour to get through this thing. It's massive.

[Jamie Loftus]

Who is. He's like, maybe if I do it, he'll give me a kiss on the mouth.

[Robert Evans]

We'll see. Well, basically, this. This was published by Sequoia, which massive, like, investment fund thing on their website.

[Jamie Loftus]

Journalistic entity.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, it looks like that. It looks exactly like an article from, like, Wired or something. Like, they clearly laid it out like that. But I think it was done because they put, like, $200 million into his company, so they needed to justify it by making him look like a genius.

[Jamie Loftus]

So it's like those articles that, like, are occasionally. I mean, it's more scary when they're on actual journalistic outlets. And then there's just a little tag saying, like, hey, this is sponsored by RuPaul's fracking farm or whatever the. And it's like, why? Why fracking?

[Robert Evans]

Paul and ExxonMobil LGBT icons. So Sam Bankman Fried gets into finance, and he's a very good trader, as. I mean, I have no way to judge this, but Sequoia says he was a good trader. He was good at making a lot of money for other people and also a lot of money for himself. Besides, he gave away 50% of his income to his favorite sharing. But those charities were mostly the center for effective altruism and 80,000 hours, which is also an effective altruism charity.

[Jamie Loftus]

What do they do with money?

[Robert Evans]

That's a great question, Jamie. It allows guys like McCaskill to live very well, while also saying they only take $30,000 in salaries and give away the rest because their lives are heavily subsidized by these organizations that allow billionaires to pretend to be heroes.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, so like charity.

[Robert Evans]

So like charity. Yeah. So he remains there happily for years until 2017, when he begins to feel as if something is not right. Now, spoilers.

[Jamie Loftus]

He's having a Quarter life crisis.

[Robert Evans]

He is having a quarter life crisis. And this kid absolutely is a con artist. And what I am giving you is the polished, press friendly version of the story for a guy whose entire life, as far as I can tell, was one long setup for an ambitious con. So when I say stuff like he gave a lot of money to charity because there's like other charities he gives to, some of which sound reasonable, But I have actually no evidence that he did. Like, I have no evidence that he did and I haven't seen it.

[Jamie Loftus]

One of the.

[Robert Evans]

So when I say stuff like he felt like that, or when they say stuff like he felt unfulfilled at Jane street, that doesn't mean he actually did because we are at present reliant on a lot of reporting from back when this kid was the toast of Wall Street. Now, after his life fell apart and his company crashed and it became clear that he was a financial criminal, it also came out that the guy who wrote the Big short has been following him for six months. So I suspect at some point that's gonna be fun. We're all gonna be in for a real treat when that book hits.

[Jamie Loftus]

I love when you're like, and guess who is following him around? You're like, oh, he's got Michael Lewis on his tail.

[Robert Evans]

And also, if you're an investor, shouldn't, like it's somebody involved in one of these companies. Probably should have been able to find out, like, oh, hey, the big short guy's hanging out with him. That probably means this is a giant financial crime. That guy's not gonna just hang out with a dude who's good at legally making money to write about how good he is at making money legally. That's not Michael Lewis's beat.

[Jamie Loftus]

I'm kind of going for like a change of pace this time. Just gonna try to see a guy who's like, doing something right.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. Michael Lewis. Aren't you the guy who only writes about financial crimes on like a gigantic scale?

[Jamie Loftus]

No, no, no. I think that this is. He's just. Probably just trying to network.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, she just really liked this guy. Attitude towards altruism. So anyway. Yeah, anyway, here's how. That again, very dick writing PR flack motherfucker wrote about what happens next. Quote, he was, he realized, too secure. SBF's mind had been trained almost from birth to calculate. As a schoolboy, the hedonic calculus of utilitarianism had him trying to maximize the utility function measured in utils, of course, for abortion during his teenage game. I know I know that's a sentence.

[Jamie Loftus]

Does he say of course?

[Robert Evans]

No, no, I said that. Oh, wait, no, he does say. He does say. He does say of course, yes. Measured in utils. Of course.

[Jamie Loftus]

Of course.

[Robert Evans]

Of course.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, suck my ass, you.

[Robert Evans]

I. Unbelievable loser. During his teenage gaming years, his mathematical abilities allowed him to sharpen his tactics. Tactics and win. And of course, every trade SBF ever made at Jane was the subject of a risk reward calculation. All of it boiled down to expected value. The formula is fairly simple. If the amount won multiplied by the probability of winning a bet is greater than the amount lost multiplied by the probability of losing a bet, then you go for it, irrespective of units, utils, euros, dollars. We're all subject to the same reckoning. But at Jane, SBF osmost another trading principle. He learned to be risk neutral. In simple terms, a trader given a choice between $50 and a 50% chance at $100 must be agnostic if they want to maximize the expected value of earnings over a lifetime. Those who prefer the sure win are risk averse and those who would rather gamble are risk lovers. But both risk lovers and the risk averse are suckers equally, because over the long run they lose out to the risk neutral who take both deals without prejudice. That makes no sense. That makes no sense at all. Because, like, you're assuming you have to, like, choose between one. Can you just take both? Is that like the. Is that the offer? Because it' seems like the whole thought experiment is about choosing between one. None of this makes very much sense.

[Jamie Loftus]

I had a brain hemorrhage in the middle of that, and then I couldn't stop thinking about. Do you think that utilitarians. How do utilitarians feel about kissing with tongue? Do you think. How many utils does it take to kiss with tongue? Or. Don't waste your fucking time.

[Robert Evans]

I don't know. Let me write the equation out, Jamie, and try to. To sketch out the math on.

[Jamie Loftus]

I think they wouldn't be into it. I think they would be like, what's the point?

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, that's. That seems real.

[Jamie Loftus]

I only have five utils. Sorry.

[Robert Evans]

Okay, Jamie, I gotta continue this.

[Jamie Loftus]

What did that sentence say?

[Robert Evans]

What did that say? I don't know, but we have to read another one quote here. SBF realized was the rub. When he applied this principle to his own life, he came up short. There was little chance he'd get himself fired from Jane's troops Street. Thus the decision to stick with Jane was a risk averse preference. It was the logical equivalent of being offered a choice between $50 and 50% of $100 and saying, Give me President Grant. SBF was risk neutral on behalf of Jane street. But not. He realized for his own life to be fully rational about maximizing his income on behalf of the poor, he should apply his trading principles across the board. He had to find a risk neutral career path, which, if we strip away the trader jar, actually means he needed to take on a lot more risk in the hopes of.

[Jamie Loftus]

Now we're stripping it away.

[Robert Evans]

Oh, Jamie, you need to hear this.

[Jamie Loftus]

At this point. We're stripping it away. I've been asleep for six minutes. Come on.

[Robert Evans]

Which, if we strip away the trader jargon, actually means he felt he needed to take on a lot more risk in the hopes of becoming part of the global elite. The math couldn't be clearer. Very high risk multiplied by dynastic wealth. Trump's low risk multiplied by mere rich guy wealth. Wealth. To do the most good for the world, SBF needed to find a path on which he'd be a coin toss away from going totally bust. So what, the path is risk neutral, but that means taking a lot of risk because the most risk is the only way to become the wealthiest person in the world. And only by becoming the wealthiest person in the world can you avoid risk. You get it, Jamie? Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

And that's the most ethical thing you can do, right?

[Robert Evans]

That's clearly the most logical ethical way to live.

[Jamie Loftus]

So do you think that they kiss with tongue or not?

[Robert Evans]

I mean, I think what he's saying is in order to avoid the risk of catching an std, you have to take on a job as the bathroom mat at a brothel.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, I see.

[Robert Evans]

That's the risk averse. Yeah, or risk neutral presentation.

[Jamie Loftus]

Frantically rubbing my final brain cells together, trying to make heads or tails of that. And just like nothing is sparking.

[Robert Evans]

It is, it is howling clown shit. It is absolute barking nonsense is like.

[Jamie Loftus]

A vortex of bullshit to be like, so anyways, it's really clear and the math couldn't be clearer that he has to be the most richest guy or everyone is going to die. It's actually really urgent.

[Robert Evans]

You know, it's one of those things because I have known a number of rich guys in my life and some of them are in ladies.

[Jamie Loftus]

Good for you, Ron.

[Robert Evans]

There's two kinds. There's people who were poor at one point, and some of those people are unhinged. And some of them still remember being poor enough to talk like normal people. And then there's people like this who Sam Was never rich as a kid, but he lived in this rarefied air where finance and like, the. The concept of worrying about money or his economic status was not a thing because everyone around him when he was a kid was so high status. And he, like, he's just lived in this. It's not even a. It's not even a bubble. He grew up on a different planet. Like, the world does not exist to him the same way it does to everyone else. And so he's like, that's the only way you can talk about things in this way. That.

[Jamie Loftus]

Or you're a giant sinister thing where you're talking about everything. Like, it is very. My thinking is like, it's so easy for him and people like this to think of other people as theoreticals because they've never had a problem before. So it's like they've never had a problem. A game of change.

[Robert Evans]

He's never met a person.

[Jamie Loftus]

Right, Right.

[Robert Evans]

He has never known a human being. Just Stanford professors. Exactly. Just Stanford professors and problems in his video games. So.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, and not that all nerd. I mean, I'm not. I'm afraid of nerd, you know, people who identify as nerds coming into my mansions. I'm not saying that that's everybody, but I'm saying, like, he's not socialized like a person, and that usually has to do with class.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. God damn it. So the next thing that SBF did after deciding he had to quit street is start pondering how he might change the world in a way that minimized his risk by maximizing his risk or some shit. Anyway, as he told it, he considered four career fields. And this is. These are his notes on the four things he might do after being a trader. Number one, journalism. Low pay, but a massively outsized impact potential. Number two, running for office or maybe just being an advisor. Number three, working for the movement ea. Effective altruism needs people. Number four, starting a startup, but what exactly? Number five, bumming around the Bay Area for a month or so just to see what happens.

[Jamie Loftus]

Now again, sounds like a bad bumble date. Like, so what do you do? He's like, well, so startup maybe, but what is a startup really?

[Robert Evans]

What is a startup? So again, he spent years working in finance. He's got plenty of money. He came from the Bay Area, so five was an option, and it's one he took. And by the way, like, as a general rule, if you decide to quit your job and you have the financial ability to putter around for a month or two and think things through. Not a bad idea. But Sam is going to do this in the worst way possible. He eventually hits upon his great next idea, which is to make a shitload of money in crypto. Now, when he quits Jane street is 2017, and if you guys can remember back that far, that's the first big winter when cryptocurrency boomed like kind of all throughout the last quarter or so of 2017, Bitcoin was just sailing up like massive rises. Ether had a big rise too. This kind of went around early 2018. A lot of bitcoin nerds who people had been making fun of for years became overnight multimillionaires. And this was kind of the first point at which normal people started to think, shit, maybe I should get into this. Maybe I can make a lot of money, right? This is the thing that blew up bitcoin. And there was a crash after this, but it recovered. Yada yada yada yada. Sam was savvy enough to look at this and know that these moments where this thing where a lot of funny money is on the table but there's no regulation and regular people have started to get interested because they think they might get rich. This is the point at which an unethical person can make the absolute most money in a financial market, right?

[Jamie Loftus]

And you can be unethical, to quote one of the greats, you can be unethical and still be legal. That's the way I live my life.

[Robert Evans]

Haha. And you know who else lives their life that way? Jamie Loftus.

[Jamie Loftus]

You. And you're tossing the ads.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, that's right.

[Jamie Loftus]

I am indeed.

[Robert Evans]

I am indeed, baby. Here we go.

[Jamie Loftus]

All right.

[Ad Read - NordicTrack]

The only thing between you and your best self is a start button this Black Friday Explore the world with NordicTrack. From the peaks of Peru to the streets of Paris, every workout moves you somewhere new with iFit trainers leading the way.

[Robert Evans]

The equipment.

[Ad Read - NordicTrack]

Equipment's amazing. Smooth, quiet and those screens make it all feel real. Ready to start your next workout adventure with the number one treadmill brand in the U.S. shop NordicTrack.com for Black Friday savings. NordicTrack. Train anywhere. Explore everywhere.

[Ad Read - Washable Sofas]

Tired of spills and stains on your sofa? Wash away your worries with Anabe. Annabe is the only machine washable sofa inside and out where designer quality meets budget friendly prices. That's right. Sofas start at just $699. Enjoy a no risk experience with pet friendly stain resistant and changeable slip covers made with performance fabric. Experience cloud like comfort with high resilience foam that's hypoallergenic and never needs fluffing. The sturdy steel frame ensures longevity and the modular pieces can be rearranged anytime. Shop washablesofas.com for early Black Friday savings up to 60% off site wide, backed by a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not absolutely in love, send it back for a full refund. No return, shipping or restocking fees. Every penny back Upgrade [e-mail] Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Ad Read - Vizio TV]

Ready to go big Vizio's super sized 100 inch QLED TV is now available at Walmart for only $16. 90. Immerse yourself in breathtaking color and contrast with cutting edge QLED on a screen so large it transforms any room into your personal theater. And with Watch Free plus built in, you'll enjoy free live and on demand TV right out of the box. You can even stream your favorite music and podcasts with the iHeartRadio app. Head to Walmart.com and bring home the Vizio 100 inch QLED TV today for only $16.98.

[Ad Read - Famous Footwear]

Hey, I'm Steffi. You may know me from your social feed. I go big for the holidays, so I'm going to Famous Footwear because the best gifts are giving Famous. My friends and family are gonna love all these styles from Nike, Adidas, Crocs, New Balance Skechers and more. With over 800 stores, you're never far from the perfect gift. So make your list and make it famous. Come in today for buy one pair. Get one half off at your local famous footwear or famous.com some exclusions apply.

[Robert Evans]

And we're back. So J Loft Jaloptus.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yes, it's actually J. Lo. It's the first. I'm the first person to use that and it's really starting to catch on.

[Robert Evans]

Bold. Oh shit, Ben Affleck's calling me. One sec. Jamie, let me take this call.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, that's my boyfriend.

[Robert Evans]

Nope. No, he's just weeping outside of a Dunkin Donuts and pocket dialed me again. Normal Ben stuff. Am I right?

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, Ben. Look, Ben, sometimes I meet. I meet up with my friend Ben at the Atwater Dunks and I really, I really set him straight. It's nice.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. Ben Affleck. Sober for years and looks like he's hungover in every single photograph. Oh, world's Famous. What a king.

[Jamie Loftus]

I love.

[Robert Evans]

I know. I do, I do. I have a lot of. There's just a something about him that warms my heart. It's his back tattoo of Phoenix that.

[Sophie]

You love his back tattoo.

[Robert Evans]

It's just. That takes courage, you know, moral courage.

[Jamie Loftus]

I just think so.

[Sophie]

Amazing.

[Robert Evans]

I think we need to add him.

[Sophie]

That's that back tattoo. And still got to marry Jennifer Lopez.

[Robert Evans]

I think we should put his name on the Vietnam Memorial in honor of the courage that it took to get that. That back tattoo.

[Jamie Loftus]

I mean, he is braver than the troops. And he did for a while, hold. Hold the status of most divorced man in America. But that is now.

[Sophie]

But he fixed it by.

[Robert Evans]

I feel like the context.

[Sophie]

I was going to say, to be fair, they did get married at a plantation.

[Robert Evans]

I don't know. Yeah, I mean, that's all very fucked up. But I do feel the contest for most divorced man. Did you ever watch Dragon Ball Z as a kid, Jamie? Yes.

[Jamie Loftus]

I didn't. No, I didn't grow up with Dragon Ball Z.

[Robert Evans]

Well, there's this thing. Dragon Ball Z would always do this thing where, like, you have this guy and he's like, the most badass person ever that everybody has to figure out how to fight. And it's this big problem because this is the most terrifying thing in the universe. And the next season, like, there's something that's like a thousand times scarier. It's just this, like, power creep kind of thing. I feel like we've all been dealing with that with a divorced guy. Because divorced guy. Ben Affleck not. Doesn't even register on the divorced guy scale next to Elon.

[Jamie Loftus]

We're living in the age of Kanye and Elon. There's some really divorced guys. And look out, because Tom Brady is about to fucking hit the World Trade Center.

[Robert Evans]

Tom Brady's gonna go Super Saiyan divorced. It's amazing.

[Jamie Loftus]

That is gonna. A third divorce, man, has hit the world 27.

[Robert Evans]

It is bad.

[Jamie Loftus]

It's bad.

[Robert Evans]

Incredible. So back to Sam Bankman Fried. He has just decided to get into crypto. Now, the first way to make money in crypto, that occurred to him. Cause he spends a bunch of time looking into the market, and he sees that there's this thing called. I think it's like the kimchi premium or whatever like that. They come up with some weird kind of racist name about it, which is basically, bitcoin is worth a lot more in Japan and Korea than it is in the United States. Right. It's like, worth 15 grand in Japan and Korea, and it's like 10 grand in the United States. Something like that.

[Jamie Loftus]

Why is that?

[Robert Evans]

There's a variety of complicated factors. Basically, there's a bunch of different laws around banking and who can and cannot hold accounts and execute trades in those areas that leads to this premium. Because, like, normally if a premium like that, if the markets were of kind, kind of accessible to each other, if Bitcoin's worth 15 grand in Asia and 10 grand in the US then you buy Bitcoin in the US and you sell it in Asia and you get free money, right? Very obvious if you can. But you can't do that because you can't get access to the. As an American, you can't, like, get a Chinese account in order to buy bitcoin there, right? Or a Korean account or a Japanese account. There's all these laws.

[Jamie Loftus]

You can't just do, like, a banking vpn.

[Robert Evans]

No, you can't. You cannot do that. And no one can figure out how to do it, how as a Westerner to sell bitcoin over in these parts of Asia and get that premium, right? And, like, just get a bunch of free cash. Sam figures out a way to do it, which is basically like picking up a pile of free money, right? If you're buying Bitcoin for 10 grand and other people want to pay 15 grand for it, you're just making cash, right? And primarily the way he does that is through friends in the effective altruism community who are. Are, like, placed in banks and stuff over in Asia who, like, help him figure out how to do this. I'm not gonna go into details. I mean, this fucking dick writing article spends a long time explaining how he figures this out, and it might even have been legal. He may not have broken the law to do this, although it's kind of hard to know because all of this is complicated finance gibberish, by the way.

[Jamie Loftus]

Honestly, I'm not getting a word of this.

[Robert Evans]

Finance guys call this an arbitrage. And it's basically the ideal that if you. If there's a resource that's worth a bunch more money one place than it is the other place, you buy it where it's cheap, and you sell it where it's expensive and you get free money, right? That makes sense.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. If. If I am. Jamie.

[Jamie Loftus]

Jamie, defensive.

[Robert Evans]

My drug dealer sells me ketamine for, like, 40 bucks a gram, right? And I don't know, at a house party you're hanging out at a couple of blocks away, somebody says that they'd pay $70 a gram for ketamine. You can make 30 free bucks by taking the ketamine you bought for 40 bucks and selling it at that other house party. Right, okay.

[Jamie Loftus]

So that was you speaking to me in terms that you would understand. But I do think I got it.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ketamine makes everything make sense.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, you just gave it to me in Robert speak. I got it. I got it.

[Robert Evans]

He makes a shitload of money doing this, and he decides to roll this money into a company which will allow him to hire employees to gamble with cryptocurrency at scale to try and find different fucked up little areas like this where they can make a bunch of money by executing trades. He picks members of the EA community as his first employees, including Carolyn Ellison, a former coworker, coworker at Jane street, who we will be talking about in a little bit. And Nishad Singh, a former Facebook employee. Industrial scale dick writer Adam Fisher lets you know that Singh is an incredible, almost impossibly good human being by describing him this way. He often wears a T shirt with the words compassionate to the core printed in diminutive all lowercase font over his heart.

[Jamie Loftus]

Do you think that this guy, this writer, like, just. It's at this point, he's on like a bucking bronco of SBF's dick. Like, it's just absolutely ridiculous.

[Robert Evans]

He is 50% this guy's dick by weight. It is unbelievable.

[Jamie Loftus]

What does he think is gonna happen for him?

[Robert Evans]

He's gonna get paid by sequ to write a 10,000 word article that they then pull from their website when it becomes clear this man is a massive.

[Jamie Loftus]

Financial criminal, he's like, no, my greatest work.

[Robert Evans]

It's extremely funny. Now, look, I don't know, Singh, but based on the description that guy gives, I am convinced he's murdered a child with his bare hands. And that is my headcanon for this man. No one else would wear that shirt. So these, these EA nerds all form a trading firm called Alameda. And in doing so, they came down on one side of probably the biggest split within the crypto community. See, the core of the idea that's not bad that exists within cryptocurrency is that centralized, state controlled money has problems, right? You know, there's things about that that are bad and it could be cool and useful to be able to separate the money from the state. If you could do that, right? If you could do that in a way that reduced the state's power to, like, you know, just lock down the bank accounts of dissidents and stuff like that. There's. There's cool benefits to it, potentially.

[Jamie Loftus]

I just had an idea. What if we did that. But then we gave all the money to one guy.

[Robert Evans]

Well, that's kind of what keeps happening. Oh, but also like SPF's on the other side of this argument. Right? Because obviously most of the actual benefits of a truly decentralized online currency are just you can buy drugs with it over the Internet, but still, that is a real value. People do, in fact, buy drugs using cryptocurrency, and that's fine. And the committed ideological crypto people tend to keep their money offline, in a wallet only they can access. Right. So you basically, you have like a hard drive that has all of your crypto on it, and that only touches the Internet when you plug that into your computer and you use it to make a transaction. Right. And otherwise it's completely offline, and so people can't just take it. It from you. Right, right. That's the smart people. This is a pain in the ass, though, right? Like keeping it in this thing, like, there's all these security. You can lose your password. People actually do lose their money this way too. But anyway, it's, it's. There's a measure to which it makes sense and is secure. But most people don't want to go through that pain in the ass. So they put all of their crypto currency in what are effectively crypto banks, these exchanges. And these exchanges are places like Mount Gox, which a few years ago, all of the money got stolen from, and ftx, which Sam Bankman Fried makes, which also all of the money gets stolen from.

[Jamie Loftus]

Right, right.

[Robert Evans]

So the people who are like, no, you shouldn't do what Sam is doing. You shouldn't make an exchange, because that's not decentralized. And we like this because it's decentralized. They are the ones who get robbed less often because they're a little smarter. And that's part of the point. These exchanges, they're meant for people who don't. You don't see crypto actually as like, well, I. I want to fight the state by removing my money from the banking system. They're for people who are like, I want to try to get rich quick by gambling. Right. And that's why those people are also the most vulnerable to scams.

[Jamie Loftus]

Robert, anytime you explain crypto with me to me, even though I know I need to understand it for the context of the episode, I just feel like I'm in a corner at a house party and I'm holding a clammy Bud Light and it's mostly empty. And you're like, just one more thing. Though, Because, I mean, the important thing.

[Robert Evans]

To understand is that what Sam has done. So crypto is like unregulated. Right. It is detached from any state. Okay, Right.

[Jamie Loftus]

Which is why people like it.

[Robert Evans]

Which is why people like it.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

What Sam has done is come in and he's not the first person to do this and said, I have built a place where you can keep all of your crypto and you can trade it with other crypto to try to make money the same way people do with the stock market. Right.

[Jamie Loftus]

Where it is more secure.

[Robert Evans]

No, because here's the thing, Jamie, he says it's secure, but here's the thing. So you know how the banking system, how banks used to just go bust and everyone would lose their money and it caused a Great Depression. You get that part of the history of finance, right?

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, yeah. One of the characters from Titanic killed themselves over that.

[Robert Evans]

Exactly, exactly. So that was a big problem. And we developed a bunch of regulations so that among other things.

[Jamie Loftus]

I know this part, Robert.

[Robert Evans]

So what Sam has done is he's built a bank that has none of that. Of that. So that people can gamble on the Internet. Right.

[Jamie Loftus]

Okay.

[Robert Evans]

So that's all you need to understand.

[Jamie Loftus]

Great Depression.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, got it. Yeah, got it. Exactly. That's all you need to understand is that Sam has built a big unregulated bank for people to gamble with. Yeah. Anyway, and this is. This is. It is. It could not have been clearer that this was a Ponzi scheme. In 2018, they put out an advertisement to investors and I'm going to read it right now. I think you'll be like, we offer one investment product, 15% annualized fixed rate loans. We can accept both fiat and crypto and can pay interest denominated in either. These loans have no downside. We guarantee full payment, the principal and interest enforceable under U.S. law and established by all parties. Legal counsel, we are extremely confident we will pay this amount in the unlikely case where we lose more than 2% anyway. Again, I'm not a finance expert. Neither are you, James. Jamie, banks offer like a 3% return on like a fucking. If you're like putting a pile of cash in a bank and you're getting 3% back, you're doing okay. 15%'s nonsense that nobody, no one can guarantee that it's not a real product.

[Jamie Loftus]

I was pretty struck by their use of the language. Like, we're pretty confident we're gonna be able to play sound like. It just sounds like someone who is not actually very confident.

[Robert Evans]

And also, if this is if you are. If you are investing in a market, in the stock market, right? And someone says, this investment has no downside, it's impossible for it to fail, that person's lying to you and breaking the law. Because it could and often does.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, right. Cause then you're just. You're making an almost guaranteed false promise.

[Robert Evans]

Yes. You cannot do. You cannot say, this stock can't go down. Right. If you're a stockbroker, you cannot tell a client, it is impossible for your investment in this company to fail, because that would be a crime. But with crypto.

[Jamie Loftus]

But with crypto, it's uncharted territory.

[Robert Evans]

It's uncharted territory. You can do anything. This is also a Ponzi scheme, right? What fucking Madoff was doing is he had this investment portfolio that was. I forget what the exact. But it was promising an unbelievably high return and guaranteeing that people would get it. Right. And what he was doing is, as new people put money into the investment, he was using their money to pay the old investors so that nobody noticed that things were fucking up. But eventually, new people stopped putting money into the thing, and it all fell apart. And a lot of people lost billions of dollars, right?

[Jamie Loftus]

Like, ooh, O. Yeah, I'm bad.

[Robert Evans]

He was also using a lot of that money to live, you know, an incredibly lavish rich guy life. Anyway, sorry.

[Jamie Loftus]

I only understand financial concepts when Selena Gomez breaks the fourth wall and explains it to me.

[Robert Evans]

I'm doing my best to be your Selena Gomez, but do you know who Selena Gomez is? Yeah, she's that chick from the thing.

[Sophie]

Nailed it.

[Jamie Loftus]

She's kind of in the middle of a fun scandal right now where she's in a feud with. With someone who donated her a kidney.

[Robert Evans]

What?

[Jamie Loftus]

Which is a very funny online feud.

[Robert Evans]

How do you get in a feud with that person?

[Jamie Loftus]

Because she. Okay, if you asked, Robert, this is something I can explain to you this. So. So what happened was Selena Gomez needed a kidney donated. Her close friend who works in the industry. I don't know who it was, but I guess she's, like, sort of famous. Gave her a kidney. Kidney a couple years ago. Then Selena Gomez turns around a couple weeks ago and says, I have no friends in the industry except Taylor Swift. In comes her kidney donor being like, oh, that's interesting, because I'm one kidney lighter, dude. Like, I'm not quoting it, but yeah. And then. And then Selena, instead of apologizing, Selena Gomez is like, oh, sorry I didn't thank every person I've ever met in My life.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, but I mean, Selena, she did give you a kidney.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, That's a special kind of friend. You guys weren't just like drinking buddies. She literally gave you a kidney. And that's what I did.

[Robert Evans]

She did the thing that you would use as a joking description of someone who'd done a lot for you to hyperbolically say that you owed them a lot.

[Jamie Loftus]

You know, who's done? And implying that Taylor Swift has done more for you than your kidney donor is. So I just think it's the funniest feud of all time. All right, we were talking about cryptocurrency.

[Robert Evans]

We weren't. We were talking about Selena Gomez. But let's get back to cryptocurrency. Okay, so to talk about what came next after establishing Alameda, I'm going to quote again from that Sequoia write up. At this point, mid-2019, SBF decided to double down again and scratch his own itch. He would bet Alameda's multimillion dollar trading profits on a new venture, a trading exchange called ftx. It would combine Coinbase's solid, stolen, regulation loving approach with the kinds of derivatives being offered by Binance and others. He only gave himself a 20% chance of success, but in his mind, SBF needed extreme risk to maximize the expected value of his lifetime earnings, and therefore the good his earn to give strategy could do. The fact that he was, by his own lights, overwhelmingly likely to fail was besides the point. The point was this. When SBF multiplied out billions of dollars a year, a successful cryptocurrency exchange could throw off by his self assessed 20% chance of successfully building one. The number was still huge. That's the expected value. And if you live your life according to the same principles by which you'd trade an asset, there's only one way forward. You calculate the expected values, then aim for the largest one. Because in one but just one alternate future universe, everything works out fabulously. To maximize your expected value, you must aim for it and then march blindly forth, acting as if the fabulously lucky SBF of the future can reach into the other parallel universe universes and compensate the FAIL Sun SPFs for their losses. It sounds crazy, or perhaps even selfish, but it's not. It's math. It follows the principle of risk neutrality. Yes, it actually is crazy. That's not math. I'm sorry, that's actually not math. That was math.

[Jamie Loftus]

But that was a lot of words all at once. That is like, oh my God, the spiraling logic of this.

[Robert Evans]

You are using hundreds of words and high minded bullshit rhetoric to be be like, gambling is the best way to make money.

[Jamie Loftus]

He used fabulously three times in one sentence.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, man. You know who I've heard this basic argument from? My friends drunk in Las Vegas, explaining what they're trying to play at the.

[Jamie Loftus]

Craps table again, why they don't want me to leave the little horsey game. This is so. Yeah, someone's like, no, don't leave the Sex and the City slot machine.

[Robert Evans]

No. And here's why you want to hear my mathematics thinking on gambling, Jamie Loftus. Because this will make more sense than anything that happens in the Sequoia article. Okay. When I go to Las Vegas, I find me the penny slots where I can see the most waitresses walking around with those little trays that they have the drinks and stuff on. Then I sit down at them and I don't start to play until one gets close to me. And then I press the button as soon as she walks past and I like catch her attention. And then I get a free drink. And the way that it works out is that as long as I can get more free drinks than I'm spending at the penny slots. And mostly I'm just reading a book and hiding it while I'm at the penny slots. And I only press it when the waitress gets near like the other Vegas guys, I can drink effectively for free. Right. It works out to be like 25 cents a drink if you're really smart about it.

[Jamie Loftus]

That is pretty smart.

[Robert Evans]

That's my financial advice to all of you.

[Jamie Loftus]

I do respect that.

[Robert Evans]

How you make it even better. I used to go with a bag because when I was poor, what I would do do is I would go to Vegas once every couple of years, usually for work. And I would get all the free drinks which came in glasses a lot of the time. And I would keep the glasses. And so I was able to furnish my apartment with stolen Las Vegas glasses.

[Jamie Loftus]

I love stealing glasses. I've stolen my fair share of glasses in Vegas.

[Robert Evans]

Sometimes I would get up to the floors where there were the nicer hotel rooms and I would find all the people who'd set out their plates and stuff from like room service and I would just take those and take them back to my.

[Sophie]

Expect that.

[Jamie Loftus]

I'm trying to think. I was like, I don't have a real system for. Well, actually when I go to Vegas, I always stay at the hotel with a roller coaster on top. And here's what I do. I go on the roller coaster once, sometimes twice. Then I go see one show usually. It's horrible. The last time I went to see the Backstreet Boys, and guess what I found out? One of the Backstreet boys is in QAnon. And then I got bummed out from. It was a real dollar trip.

[Robert Evans]

The point I want to make, Jamie, is that what I just described to you. My Vegas strategy has made me infinitely more money in net profit than Samuel Bankman Fried is actually going to make in cryptocurrency.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, fun foreshadowing.

[Robert Evans]

Yes.

[Jamie Loftus]

Wait, so he would never hang out near waitresses, though? Because he's probably afraid of women.

[Robert Evans]

He's probably afraid of them. But I am fine with asking women for a free drink as long as I'm paying at the penny slots. So it's not we.

[Jamie Loftus]

Wow. Feminist icon Robert.

[Robert Evans]

Feminist icon Robert Evans getting those shitty Vegas Irish copies. Because they come in the glasses. I want them.

[Jamie Loftus]

Those are nasty.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, but I like the glasses. They used to come in.

[Jamie Loftus]

They do have. I know, but then there's the consequence of having to drink what's inside.

[Robert Evans]

Well, you know, Jamie, that's why they call me a hero.

[Sophie]

Nobody does that.

[Robert Evans]

The Mahatma Gandhi of the West. They call me the Jesus Christ of podcasting. These are all things people call me.

[Sophie]

If you're gonna lie, make it realistic.

[Robert Evans]

James. Soph. James. Soph. Anyway, let's continue. I'm like, yeah, I think it's hard to justify being risk averse on your own personal impact. SBF told me when I quizzed him about it, unless you're doing it for personal reasons. In other words, it's selfish not to go for broke if you're planning on giving it all away in the end anyway. Again, just clown shit. So all of this is a con. Spoilers. So you don't have to think that much about it. In a recent series of text messages with a vox journalist, after his entire exchange exploded and everyone found out he was a financial criminal, Sam Bankman Fried more or less admitted that everything he'd had to say about effective altruism was a con meant to get people to trust him and invest in his company. And I'm going to read that. Yeah, I'm going to read the texts to you between him and this journalist, who, by the way, he put money in the box. So he helped fund this journalist. Wow. So the ethics stuff, this is the journalist. So the ethics stuff mostly affront people will like you if you win and hate you if you lose. And that's how it all really works. Works, Sam. Yeah, I Mean that's not all of it, but it's a lot. The worst quadrant is sketchy and lose. The best is win + question mark, question mark, question mark. Clean + lose is bad but not terrible. He also misspells terrible, but whatever. The journalist then replies, you were really good at talking about ethics. For someone who kind of saw it all as a game with winners and losers. Yeah, hehe, I had to be. It's what reputations are made of to some extent. Some extent I feel bad for those who get by it. But this dumb game we woke westerners play where we all say the right shibboleths and so everyone likes us and that's the actual truth here, right? That's the thing that's honest about it. It's like hey man, it was all of this talk for everyone. That's the entire. This Ms. Caskill. The only reason his effective altruism thing exists as a funded thing is as a fucking shibboleth for billionaires who don't want to pay taxes and want to let the world crumble around them while sucking as much value out of the working class as they can and want to pretend like they're heroes at the same time so that people write their dicks in articles like that fucking Sequoia piece.

[Jamie Loftus]

That absolutely fucking ridiculous text actually is like a very important document.

[Robert Evans]

It's incredibly important. It's deeply crucial.

[Jamie Loftus]

I hate that there's such a crucial document that also includes HEHE in it.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, there's nothing to be done about that one. Jamie.

[Jamie Loftus]

Look, there's. It doesn't feel good. But you know, our previous most important document to that effect was an IM that said haha. So a text with hehe is kind of the logical progression. That is fascinating. Do you have any like insight into like why he would so freely admit that now?

[Robert Evans]

I don't actually. One of two things has to be happening because again, spoilers. This all falls apart. His exchange goes from worth $32 billion to worth basically $0 in the space of literally I hear a link in.

[Jamie Loftus]

My head anytime you say it falls.

[Robert Evans]

APART like like 20, 24 hours, this happens. His net worth falls 94% in a day. Like it is it all. It collapsed because they realized that all of the money is gone. That he'd been taking money from one business and using to gamble in another and also to pay him and his friends and all of the money that the investors had put in when they tried to withdraw it. Like their money that was supposed to be in there on paper, none of the money existed because again, he'd stolen it. Anyway, the context of this article makes it clear that he felt like, I don't know, whatever, this was all a confidence game. Right? That's the key. Yeah, all of this could work. And the balance sheets, because people were looking at their balance sheet. I'm making money, I'm making money. These returns are great. And that money existed on paper until they tried to take it out because then it actually wasn't there because he had already frittered it away. It's a confidence game and we have an, you know, that's the way it actually work. We also know and this is all still coming out, so I'm not going to get too much into it. But we know that he had FTX loan himself, Sam Bankman fried about a billion dollars. Like his paper value was like 22 billion. But he gave himself basically a billion dollars in other people's money. Although he may have gambled that away. It's really unclear how much money he actually has liquid at the moment.

[Jamie Loftus]

Okay, do we think he has any?

[Robert Evans]

I have no idea.

[Jamie Loftus]

Okay.

[Robert Evans]

Either he was like actually a gambling addict and a narcissist and he really did lose it all, or this was a con from the beginning, knowing it would all collapse and he got as much as he could out of it and he's gonna wind up someplace without extra. Extradition. Right. Like, and that was the goal.

[Jamie Loftus]

If you asked me a couple years ago, I would have said it's the latter. But I feel like the last couple years have demonstrated so often that like people are just straight up not smart and don't have a plan and it is all a narcissist shell game.

[Robert Evans]

It's very, it's, it's unclear at the moment. I'm going to read you some things at the end here and you can kind of make your. Anyway, whatever. So after, you know, starting ftx, the company moves to Hong Kong and then the Bahamas and they, they use, they buy these very like a 39 million dollar mansion that he lives in with his friends using FTX tokens, which is like internal cash that his company issues based on the perceived value of the company.

[Jamie Loftus]

They don't. How many rooms is that?

[Robert Evans]

It's a shitload. And they're able to buy it because everything's like their paper on paper. They've gone from Nothing to worth $32 billion in like a year or two. And these idiot like property owners in the Bahamas are, are like, well, clearly the best thing we could do is Buy this building using the fake money they created for their own company that they tell us is worth a lot of money. This is worth. So since everything collapsed, some people that SBF had, like, reached out to, as early investors have commented, about why they didn't invest in this company in the early days. And most of them it's because, like, what they could see of his investments, the tens of millions that he promised to charities and the long positions in risky crypto companies, didn't make sense. They would look at the things he was buying with the company assets and the things that he was investing in and be like, well, there's no way he could have that kind of liquidity if this is a legitimate exchange. Right. He can't have that kind of cash on hand. It doesn't make any sense.

[Jamie Loftus]

Rich fucking assholes always tell on themselves like that. That's funny.

[Robert Evans]

And what's funny is that I found one of these guys who like, yeah, I didn't invest. Cause I could tell it was a con, and then was like. But I didn't tell anybody because I didn't want to get yelled at.

[Jamie Loftus]

No, that's. That's. Unfortunately, I do see myself in that statement a little bit, where I was like, oh, someone might be. Someone might send me a rude text.

[Robert Evans]

I guess I won't say anything about this. Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, my God.

[Robert Evans]

It's very funny.

[Jamie Loftus]

Spineless, goofy bullshit.

[Robert Evans]

I don't know. I'll tell you one thing, Jamie. He's a spineless guy who still has his fucking money.

[Jamie Loftus]

Wow. You're in love with him. That's what. Wow.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, whatever. It's the finance industry. They're all ghouls. They're all ghouls, from what we can actually tell now, because again, this fucking Captain Dick writer, the bad writer. I have to read you another quote that I didn't have in my script. To give you an idea of just how much he fucked up, how much he loves sbf. Here's a quote from him. Okay. Yeah. This is actually Jamie. Oh, boy. This is when the writer, Captain Dick Ryder, is hanging out with him in the Bahamas at his office, quote.

[Jamie Loftus]

And he's like, what if we kissed?

[Robert Evans]

Sensing an opportunity for connection, I chip in with my own two satoshi, which. Which is two cents, but a bitcoin term. Anyway, whatever.

[Jamie Loftus]

I'm going to walk into the ocean. Wow. Okay.

[Robert Evans]

I don't pay any attention to social media. Not because I have any moral case against it, I say, but because for me, reading books is the highest bandwidth way I know to get quality information into my brain, which just craves the stimulation. I'm addicted to reading, which explains how I ended up being a writer. Oh yeah, says sbf. I would never read a book. I'm not sure what to say. I've read a book a week from I hate them.

[Jamie Loftus]

Whoa.

[Robert Evans]

I hate them both because I'm not sure what to say. I've read a book a week for my entire adult life and I have written three of my own. I'm very skeptical of books. I don't want to say no book is ever worth reading, but I actually do believe something pretty close to that explains sbf. I think if you wrote a book, you fucked up and it should have been a six paragraph blog post.

[Jamie Loftus]

Meanwhile, this guy's writing a 10,000 word article, writing his dick that he will not read. This is like two hit. It's like two guys whose heads are made out of rocks just going like clonking against each other repeatedly.

[Robert Evans]

What is just. Wait, Jamie, Jamie. It hasn't gotten as bad as it's going to get.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh no. I think people are like, I hate books.

[Robert Evans]

Whatever the case, I find myself sad for the man. And it occurs to me that my reaction is exactly what might be expected from a beta in the brave new world crypto is creating.

[Jamie Loftus]

Whoa.

[Robert Evans]

How can you write that and not leap off the top of a building?

[Jamie Loftus]

Like, he literally self identified as a beta tool.

[Robert Evans]

What I love about this is just like these. Well, we have to take. We have to take it as given that crypto is creating a brave new world and none of us has any choice in that it's inevitable, it's unstoppable, it's going to dominate everything, which is.

[Jamie Loftus]

Like capitulate to our beep beep, boop boop overlords. Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

So I think again, what, I wonder, does he think? I think. Wouldn't someone with IQ points to spare realize that dismissing books, all books, is essentially worthless, might rile a writer? Was he playing with me? Is this fun? Is this humor? I'm satisfied with my meta analysis until I realize one that can always increment the level of strategic play in this sort of game. It's like poker. Level one is just thinking about how to strengthen your own hand. Level two is thinking about what your opponent's hand is. Level three is thinking about what your opponent thinks your hand is. And so on. And since SBF is obviously a genius, I should simply assume that compared with me, SBF will always be playing at level n1. Which makes my analysis of the intent behind SBF's Books for Losers idea spiral into infinity and crash like it be could computer laffer.

[Jamie Loftus]

Is this how you write about me in your diary?

[Robert Evans]

No, Jamie. Because do you know what? The only ethical. Speaking of ethics, you know what? If you think this way about conversations, the ethical thing to do is fill your pockets with rocks and walk into the ocean.

[Jamie Loftus]

Wow, you're wolfing this guy.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, I absolutely am. Him and Sam Bankman fried. I could not hate these people more.

[Jamie Loftus]

I mean, they're both there. There's never been two wronger people having a conversation.

[Robert Evans]

And of course it came out. He's just like, well, obviously he's a genius. We have to assume that because he became a billionaire and it's like, no, he was never a billionaire, Robert.

[Jamie Loftus]

In his defense, that's math. He did the math.

[Robert Evans]

He used a balance sheet. Like, we've now gotten access because he had to like go into bankruptcy and step down. So like now there's a caretaker trying to get people's money out of the company. And we know shit. Like we've seen. Seen the Excel files where they kept their financial records. And it's him being like, this is basically bullshit. Like, sorry about this, we fucked this up. We weren't actually keeping records here. The company balance sheet, there was no accounting department. People would file their. Like. Like when they would spend hundreds, tens of hundreds of millions of dollars on things, they would just message each other on, signal about it to get approval and had delete deleted messages on. So there's actually like no record of a lot of the accounting. They did at one point hire an outside accounting firm to handle their account. $32 billion company and the firm they hired is the. It bills itself as the only Metaverse based accounting firm. Oh my God. His. The accounting firm for this $32 billion company exists entirely within a crypto themed video game called Decentraland.

[Jamie Loftus]

It is so fucking stupid with everything you're saying. Okay, so this is really. This is bad and this feels bad to hear. I have a question.

[Robert Evans]

Yes, Jamie?

[Jamie Loftus]

Who is. I guess. Cause I am kind of back in Lizzie Holmes land. Because that whole last. I mean, like, departments that should be taking care of shit don't even exist. Which is very Theranos adjacent to me.

[Robert Evans]

Theranosi.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, Theranosian, if you will. Theranosi. We've both written books. We can just make up random things.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, of course. Yeah. That's mostly what writing a book is for. Sure.

[Jamie Loftus]

I view myself as the beta of this conversation and so I feel comfortable Asking you, Robert, who is ultimately affected by this, like, what is the like trickle down of this? What happens? Is it just other rich assholes or does it affect regular, like, does it affect people?

[Robert Evans]

Probably there will presumably be some. Here's the thing and here is why there's that lawsuit against like Larry David and all those other guys who appeared in the fta. Yeah. Presumably a bunch of regular people got suckered into putting their money on ftx and those people have probably lost some money. That said, for the most part it's fine because most of the people who lost money are like gamblers who probably suck as much as this guy did. And it's one of those things. There's just an article, I think at Financial Times where someone's like actually. And I think they actually attacked a good point. We shouldn't regulate the crypto industry because if we regulate it, it will be brought in closer to the actual financial industry as it exists and banks will put more investments into crypto and it will get seen as like legitimate and backed by the state. And so when these con men destroy tens of billions of dollars overnight and cause panic in the industry, it will affect the real economy. And right now it doesn't seem to. And like, yeah, I guess that is kind of, that's not a bad point. Maybe we just let it die on its own. I don't know.

[Jamie Loftus]

It seems like more like we'll, we'll know more.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. So yeah, we will continue to learn more. One of the things that's funniest about this is that Sequoia, this investment firm, put like $200 million into the company, which they have all written off. Now they're accepting it as a total loss.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, they're going, they're going full Batgirl on this.

[Robert Evans]

Okay, now when you hear this very serious investment firm put $200 million into this, this business, you probably assume Jamie. Wow, I bet he had a good pitch, right?

[Jamie Loftus]

I actually, I don't know if we're talking Theranos. I actually don't think that that is, that's not disqualifying to have a dog.

[Robert Evans]

Shit pitch, you know. You know who can make this clear for us is Captain Dick Writer.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, thanks.

[Robert Evans]

SPF told Sequoia about the so called super app. I want FTX to be a place where you can do anything you want with your next dollar. You can buy Bitcoin, you can send money in whatever currency to any friend, anyone. You can buy a banana, you can do anything with. You you want with your money from inside ftx. Suddenly, the chat window.

[Jamie Loftus]

It's also like, how much did a banana car?

[Robert Evans]

I don't know. I feel like I can do anything I want with my debit card. Like, I've never run into a thing I wanted to buy and been like, ah, I cannot.

[Jamie Loftus]

No.

[Robert Evans]

How do I actually, I can even buy drugs with it by going to an athlete. If I were to be a person who buys drugs, which I'm not, I could go to an ATM and take out cash and purchase drugs.

[Jamie Loftus]

Support your local drug dealer and banana vendor, for crying out loud.

[Robert Evans]

Unbelievable. So he gives this banana pitch quote. Suddenly, the chat window on Sequoia's side of the zoom lights up with partners freaking out. I love this founder, typed one partner. I am a 10 out of 10. Pinged another. Yes, exclamation point. Exclamation point, point. Exclaimed a third. What Sequoia was reacting to was the scale of SBF's vision. It wasn't a story about how we might use fintech in the future or crypto. Crypto or a new kind of bank. It was a vision about the future of money itself with a total addressable market of every person on the entire planet. I sit 10ft from him and I. I know it's.

[Jamie Loftus]

These people are just like three executives doing lines of coke and one swallowing a banana with the peel still on. They're like, yeah, yes, yep. Oh, my God. Okay.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. So it's.

[Jamie Loftus]

I mean, which does kind of continue with the trend of, like, you know, SBF has never had a problem or a. Like, anything to overcome. Like, if it's this easy for him to con people into shit, like, of course you would have a God complex. You've never. You've never been told. No.

[Robert Evans]

Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. It's cool. So what, Sequoia was re. Yeah, sorry, I have to continue. Continue this. This fucking quote. And next he's going to talk about a person who works at Sequoia and is in the room for this. I sit 10ft from him and I walked over thinking, oh, shit, that was really good. Remembers Aurora. And it turns out that fucker was playing League of Legends through the entire meeting. And this is framed in the article and in all the coverage before everything fell apart is, like, so awesome. He's so cool. This writer talks a bunch about how, like, Sam never stops playing video. Video games. When he's talking to this writer, when he's having corporate meetings, he's playing video games basically 100% of the time. And this is always mentioned as, like, he's always working. He's always in the office. He sleeps at a beanbag chair at his desk. And it's like, no, dude, he's not always working. He's conning you. And he plays video games all the time and pretends that that's a fucking job. Which is great. Great con. Good for you, buddy.

[Jamie Loftus]

Always working and always there. Two very different flavors of things happening.

[Robert Evans]

Exactly, exactly. Yeah. It's all part of the fucking con. So is the fact that he always. He always wore like ratty old athletic shorts and like a wrinkled T shirt. Because, like, that's for. If you are a young man in the tech industry, that makes people think you're a genius, right? Because geniuses dress like shit.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah. He's like, now if I bring a real stink into the room, people are gonna like, jack up my already fake IQ score about 20 points. Yeah. This is fucking horseshit.

[Robert Evans]

And it's like, you know who else dresses like shit? The guy I used to buy weed from.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Does he also.

[Robert Evans]

You know who wears the same outfit as Sam Bankman? Fried. My old buddy who once at a party got into an argument with a guy and broke 15 bones in his face because they were both drinking. Not a corporate genius.

[Jamie Loftus]

I do like that shared aesthetic where it's like, really? The difference is the pet snake. That is. That's how you truly can sniff out the millionaire from the. Yes, I want a pet snake.

[Robert Evans]

Anyway, he's the same kind of person as Elizabeth Holmes. And he was. Again, he's a confidence man. And this gets us into the Larry David shit. Because the thing about being a confidence man is that as long as people are convinced their money is safe and most of them don't try to pull it out, then you can keep the con going and you can keep the fake numbers increasing and everyone will think you're richer and you can actually get real money out of this. So one of the things that he did is he would pour shitloads of money into sponsorship deals and to other ventures to make his company seem legit. One way he did it. Yeah. He spent seventeen and a half million through FTX to sponsor the athletic teams at UC Berkeley. He launched a $20 million ad campaign with Tom Brady and Gisele Bundchen. He offered NFTs at Coachella. Uh huh. And he spent $135 million on the naming rights for the Min. Miami Heat's home arena. And the purpose. This is all to build confidence. Right? You see, it's the fucking. It's the same thing crypto.com did, by the way, with the arena. And y'.

[Jamie Loftus]

All, I was about to say, I was like, I. I feel like the crypto.com arena is not long for this world and you have to assume we.

[Sophie]

Don'T recognize that as an act.

[Robert Evans]

Is my money safe in this thing? That's a bank, but not a bank. Well, their name is on the arena, so it's probably legit.

[Jamie Loftus]

Here's the thing is like, yeah, it's like now walking into the crypto.com arena, I couldn't feel like less safe. I couldn't feel less secure.

[Sophie]

Nobody.

[Jamie Loftus]

Unlike when it was the staple center, I'm like, oh, you know what's never going to go out of style? Little notebooks.

[Robert Evans]

People have been using staples since we were cavemen. I assume so, yes.

[Jamie Loftus]

The earliest technology.

[Sophie]

Just like the worst name on earth.

[Robert Evans]

It's. Yeah, it infuriates me, these people.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah. Sophie has a dog in the fight.

[Sophie]

I do.

[Robert Evans]

In his interview with Vox, Sam basically admits this, albeit in a slightly careful way. So FTX technically wasn't gambling with their money. FTX had just loaned their money to Alameda, who hadn't gam who had gambled with their money and lost it. And you didn't realize it was a big deal because you didn't realize how much money it was. Sam responds, and also, I thought Alameda had enough collateral to reasonably cover it. Journalist says, I get how you could have gotten away with it, but I guess that seems sketchy. Even if you get away with it, Sam, it was never the intention. Sometimes life creeps up on you.

[Jamie Loftus]

He literally said, life comes at you fast.

[Robert Evans]

Life comes at you fast. So Sam's net worth tops out at around $22 billion on paper. In reality, neither Alameda nor FTX had ever taken in even close to that much money. The valuation was based entirely on nonsense calculations that were themselves based on lies from FTX's extremely cooked books. There's a lot more about this than we're getting into. People are still finding this all out. There is one thing I should probably read, which is so, you know, when his company collapsed, he had to step down from running it, right? And because a lot of money is still in there and a lot of, like, investments are still tied up in that they, they, they put a guy in charge of the company again, right? And there's like, there's specific dudes in the business world whose, like, job is to come in when a company fucks up like this and, like, try and get as much money back out for the shareholders as possible to minimize the bulk bleeding.

[Jamie Loftus]

So they kind of have like a. Like how they. They had in like old Hollywood. They have like a fixer guy.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, they have a fixer. And this is this fixer guy specifically. He is the guy that they brought in when Enron. He took over Enron after it fell apart in order to try and like minimize the damage from it. So he is the guy who got brought in to deal with like the fact that this massive fucking crime happened with Enron. One sec.

[Jamie Loftus]

My. My favorite. My favorite Enron memory. Not that you asked. Rude was the women of Enron Playboy spread that I got to archive during my time there.

[Robert Evans]

Oh, God.

[Jamie Loftus]

Boy, did those Enron girl bosses have their. Their. So as second only to women of 7:11, which is my actual favorite spread. Continue.

[Robert Evans]

First off, should know this company has about a million creditors, so about a million people. People possibly lost their entire investment in this company, which is a stunning amount of people to take money from. And again, we're probably. We are probably looking at like five or $10 billion stolen, something like that. It's kind of unclear the exact amount, but anyway, this is what the guy in the Delaware bankruptcy court filing. This is what the guy who was. The guy who took over Enron after it became clear that the whole company was a criminal enterprise. This is what that guy wrote about Sam company.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, no. Okay.

[Robert Evans]

Never in my career have I seen such a complete failure of corporate controls and such a complete absence of trustworthy financial information as occurred here. From compromised systems integrity and faulty regulatory oversight abroad to the concentration of control in the hands of a very small group of inexperienced, unsophisticated and potentially compromised individuals. This situation is unprecedented. Again, that's the guy who took over Enron.

[Jamie Loftus]

I was like, literally like Bill Clinton dropping a notes post, being like, never have I seen Amor cheated on my wife in any. Like. That is so absurd.

[Robert Evans]

Well, I will say it's different. This guy did not commit any of the Enron crimes. Right? This is the guy who comes in.

[Jamie Loftus]

He saw them all.

[Robert Evans]

Like, no, no, no, no, no. This guy is. After he's brought in, it becomes clear that.

[Jamie Loftus]

No, no, that guy starting a sentence with never in my career.

[Robert Evans]

This guy. Yeah, it's probably best to look at this guy as like an emt. When it becomes clear that a company that has a shitload of money. Money in it and is central in the economy has collapsed because people broke the law, he comes in to minimize the damage. But he was not working at Enron previously. Right. Like, it's not. He's not trying to like, stop anyone from getting in trouble. He's trying to minimize how many people are hurt by this. Yeah, Anyway.

[Jamie Loftus]

No, of course.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. I just want to make clear, like, that guy's job anyway. Whatever.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

He's not.

[Jamie Loftus]

He's not the Enron.

[Robert Evans]

He is not the Enron or. He did not make Enron bad. He's just was there as afterwards and was like, this company's even worse.

[Jamie Loftus]

He bought the issue of Playboy and then he kept it pushing. Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

So I should. God, yeah, we're getting close to done. I should note that before everything collapsed, Sam, again, he's in the effect of altruism. He promised to donate like a couple of hundred million dollars to these EA causes. A lot less than that actually got out. Some of them were good, but a lot of it was like. So he made a huge point that he was like, one of his major priorities was pandemic prevention. Right. We have to stop the next pandemic. I'm going to put as much money as I can to pandemic prevention. That's the best effective altruist thing that I can do. To talk about how well that actually worked, I want to quote from the Washington Post here. FTX backed projects ranged from a $12 million to champion a California ballot initiative to strengthen public health programs and detect emerging virus threats. Amid lackluster support, the measure was punted to 2024 to investing more than 11 million on the unsuccessful congressional primary primary campaign of an Oregon biosecurity expert, and even $150,000 grant to help Monclef Slough, the scientific advisor to the Trump administration's Operation Warp Speed vaccine accelerator, write his memoir. So that sounds like a giant waste of money, right? That sounds like none of it. Even if it was, like, good, it sounds like it didn't. Like, even if the goals were good, like, well, the ballot measure failed, like it. Or got punted. So it's not like it worked. And it gets worse because SBF's fund also put a lot of money, like $5 million into ProPublica. And ProPublica, they've done a lot of cool stuff. They also published an extremely flawed investigation that backed the lab leak hypothesis. I'm gonna the LA Times and their analysis of this deeply flawed piece of reporting.

[Jamie Loftus]

And also we've got some notes for the LA Times as well.

[Robert Evans]

Yes, nobody's perfect. The LA Times called it a train wreck, noting the article is based heavily on Chinese language documents that appear to have been mistrans misinterpreted, according to Chinese language experts who have piled on via social media since its publication. It also takes as gospel a report by a rump group of Republican congressional staff members asserting that the pandemic was more likely than not the result of a research related incident. And this has been. The fact that ProPublica published this has like provided a shitload of fuel to the. It was all a fucking lab leak from China. It's China's fault. Republican shit. Yeah, Sam Bankman fried funded that shit.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh my God.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, basically none of the shit he was putting money into that was supposed to be good really worked and a lot of it was. So another thing the right is doing right now is they're talking about he was like the number one or number two donor to Democrats during the midterm elections.

[Jamie Loftus]

Right behind Seth MacFarlane.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, yeah. But none of his donations worked. And also he gave. It was like 32 million he gave to the dims. He gave like 24 million to Republicans. And the reason he was giving this money, number one, there were some like pro pandemic response candidates he wanted to back, most of whom didn't do well. But also like a lot of the money was towards Republican and Democratic candidates who were going to be part of the regulation of the crypto industry because he wanted to have a seat at the table and push regulations in a way that.

[Jamie Loftus]

Okay, so the only candidate that would enable that is someone who's getting money.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So anyway, in general, nothing at Alameda or FTX was as it seemed in that dick writing Sequoia article. Carolyn Ellison, the CEO of Alameda, he talks about her a bit and like she frames her as like this quintessential innocent nerd girl, plucky and ethical and optimistic to show like these are the kind of, you know, smart young Gen Z kids that are, you know, building this, this great company. And like she showed up in LARP gear to meet with Sam and talk about the future of their great financial enterprise. And she's an ethical altruist. Since everything fell apart, it's come out that she and Sam were dating each other and possibly other members of the company. And also people have found her have the full.

[Jamie Loftus]

Liz Holmes has been completely.

[Robert Evans]

Here we go. People have found her Tumblr and boy is she sketchy as hell. I'm going to quote from a report on her tumblr activity in decrypt.com Boy howdy. When I first started my first foray into Poly. I thought of it as a radical break from my trad past, the Account wrote in February 2020. But tbh, I've come to decide that the only acceptable style of poly is it best characterized as something like Imperial Chinese harem. The account went on to detail how a polyamorous dynamic should ideally function as a cutthroat market of sexual competition and subjugation. None of this non hierarchical bullshit, the account elaborated. Everyone should have a ranking of their partners, people should know where they fall in the ranking, and there should be vicious power struggles for the rank. Oh my God, it gets worse. Jamie The Ellison linked account also demonstrated a substantial preoccupation with hbd, or human biodiversity, an online euphemism for the discredited fields of race science and eugenics popularized by the alt right? Oh, oh boy. Give me one more paragraph and then we can talk about this. Jamie Ellison has for years vocalized her die hard obsession with Harry Potter. In one one post, her affiliated Tumblr account tied her love of online character quizzes to her penchant for sorting Indians by their cast, which she presumed to indicate genetic distinction.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh my God.

[Robert Evans]

Holy.

[Jamie Loftus]

Even J.K. rowling wasn't thinking something that fucked up. And that's really saying something there.

[Robert Evans]

Someone needs to Amazing. Astonishing.

[Jamie Loftus]

Tumblr is exclusively for Sherlock fan fiction and things that Trigger my eating disorder. That's a hit I cannot fucking like. Oh, that's so dark.

[Robert Evans]

It's. I almost can't fathom it. Right? And again, there's so much. We probably will do a follow up at some point because like the fact that. The fact that it was this easy for like some crypto rag. They're not the only ones who reported on it. To find her Tumblr where she talks about race science makes me think these guys were all probably into a lot more up than they let on.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, so we'll see.

[Robert Evans]

We'll see. See.

[Jamie Loftus]

I just. It's.

[Robert Evans]

I.

[Jamie Loftus]

We don't have the hour for me to decompress the way I need to after hearing that sentence specifically.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, I. I need a cigarette.

[Jamie Loftus]

I'm gonna start smoking today and I hope she's happy. Oh my God, that is.

[Robert Evans]

That is so funny.

[Jamie Loftus]

Brutal place to land. Thanks for nothing, Robert. Jeez.

[Robert Evans]

Anyway, hopefully that they're all. All of their money's gone, but they probably squirreled away millions and stuff for themselves. Although at least one of the articles I've read says that like his net worth is effectively zero now. But I don't think anyone actually knows what his net worth is right now, like, and how much he got. Like, his company went from valued at $32 billion to, most recently, there's something like $650,000 in actual assets left. But I also kind of think he and the others probably. Probably have millions or tens of millions that they set aside in shady ways for themselves.

[Jamie Loftus]

Wow. Oh, yeah. I mean, well, that does sound like what the. The Beanie Babies guy would do. And that is my yardstick for morality. That is so that. That is very, very scary to. To consider. I feel like guys like that, the thing that is. I mean, I don't know, whenever you hear about, like, it is so karmically satisfying to know that someone like SBF can. Can be completely bottomed out and, like, destroyed by something like this. But the thing is, like, when. When rich guys like that lose everything, they just come up with worse, more hateful ideas and then come back. And that is, like, always what kind of scares me about that.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, it is so funny. I don't know, Jamie.

[Jamie Loftus]

I don't know what the solution is. It's not like I want him to have money again. I just, you know, how can you make someone say less again? I think the solution is the podcaster's dilemma.

[Robert Evans]

I think, look, here's where I'll land on this. You know, I don't think people should be thrown into cages generally, unless there's literally no other way to stop them from harming folks. So. And I don't think that's the case with the. These people. So instead I think the actual solution is to close from the outside all of the doors to that. The fucking rich person apartment complex they occupy in that Bahamas development. Lock it from the outside and once a week drop in food and necessities via a helicopter and never let them leave or use the Internet again. Have them all just be with their friends in their weird little compound, going increasingly insane with their Chinese heads serum shit. I don't know. I guess that's another kind of prison. But if we film it, we can make money.

[Jamie Loftus]

Well, but then SBF may have to face his worst fear, which is reading a book.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. I guess my serious answer is, what do you do to people like this? Is you stop them from ever being able to have access to money again or start companies again, and hopefully eventually they find something to do that actually helps human beings and is of any kind of use. Like working at a grocery store. That's a real benefit. People need to get food and people need, like, that's A respectable, honest way to make a living. And if any of these people were to get a job working at a Safeway, they would be providing an infinitely greater benefit to the human race than they could ever have performed.

[Jamie Loftus]

Perhaps a bit more of that ethical side of the ethical altruism you were looking for. I'll be honest, I did not come to the recording today with a solution for the prison industrial complex.

[Robert Evans]

I don't have it.

[Jamie Loftus]

Still don't like it. I still don't love it.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, yeah. I have no solution. But you know what I do have, Jamie?

[Jamie Loftus]

What?

[Robert Evans]

Your pluggables.

[Jamie Loftus]

No, you don't. I have those.

[Robert Evans]

Well, you have them, but I'm letting you have them.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, my God.

[Sophie]

I mean, I could probably do them if nobody wants to take this job.

[Jamie Loftus]

I'll do. I can. I'll do them. Sophie, do have you to do them. Yeah.

[Sophie]

I mean, you can pre order Jamie's book and that that is linked in her Instagram bio. You can follow her on Instagram at Jamie Christsuperstar and you can follow her on Twitter amyloftishelp, if Twitter's still around. She has a podcast that she co hosts with Caitlin Durante called the Becto Cast. You should listen to her many limited run series, including her most recent run, which is Ghost Church and which Sophie.

[Jamie Loftus]

Produced along with the Battle cast and everything. Every podcast on the planet.

[Sophie]

This has now become a plug for me. Did I get everything, Jamie?

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, that's exactly what I would have said, except worse.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Sophie]

So pre, pre, pre order raw dog.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, thanks, Sophie. Yeah, pre order raw Dog. If you listen to the hot dog episode of Bastards and didn't like like it, you did like it.

[Robert Evans]

Now buy the book. Yeah, legally you did like it. And if you disagree with that statement, we will send the CIA to kill your family.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, and that. And let's make sure to attribute that quote to Robert Evans specifically.

[Robert Evans]

There we go.

[Sophie]

And speaking of Robert Evans specifically, Robert Evans specifically, Margaret Killjoy specifically, and myself will be doing a Behind the Bastards virtual live stream show on December. You can get tickets at moment. Co btb.

[Robert Evans]

Love it. Yeah. Also, I have a substack now because Twitter's not doing great, so that makes me so sad. Why? I like writing things. I got to write a thing last night. Sophie. Don't want me to write more things.

[Jamie Loftus]

I subscribe.

[Robert Evans]

It's better for me than being on Twitter all the goddamn time. Yeah, you can find it at Shatterzone Substack. Go there and I will be writing. I'll try to write something every week. Maybe I won't. Maybe all of this will will be fall apart be lost in time like tears in the rain. Or maybe you'll get a new thing from me every week. There's no way to know every time.

[Jamie Loftus]

Half the time when I get something from someone's substack cause I subscribe to quite a few but every time I get a message from someone's substack it's always like I'm so sorry, I'm like I didn't notice. Just give me the content and I'll.

[Robert Evans]

Send you yeah, yeah, it's fine. Look, we all. I don't know, I've been meaning to write more stuff as opposed to just tweeting shitposts. So maybe it'll happen, maybe it won't. There's no way to know. Perfect Byee.

[Ad Read - NordicTrack]

The only thing between you and your best self is a start button this Black Friday Explore the world with NordicTrack from the peaks of Peru to the streets of Paris, every workout moves you somewhere new with IFIT trainers leading the way. The equipment's amazing, smooth, quiet and those screens make it all feel real. Ready to start your next workout adventure with the number one treadmill brand in the US? Shop NordicTrack.com for Black Friday savings. NordicTrack Train Anywhere Explore everywhere.

[Ad Read - Washable Sofas]

There's nothing like sinking into luxury. Anabe sofas combine ultimate comfort and design at an affordable price. Annabe has designed the only fully machine washable sofa from top to bottom. The stain resistant performance fabric slipcovers and cloud like frame duvet can go straight into your wash. Perfect for anyone with kids, pets or anyone who loves an easy to clean spotless sofa. With a modular design and changeable slipcovers, you can customize your sofa to fit any space and style. Whether you need a single chair, one loveseat or a luxuriously large sectional, Anna Bay has you covered. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your home. Sofas start at just $699 and right now get early access to Black Friday savings up to 60% off store wide with a 30 day money back guarantee. Shop [e-mail] Add a little to your life. Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions to may apply.

[Ad Read - Vizio TV]

Ready to go big Vizio's super sized 100 inch QLED TV is now available at Walmart for only $16.98. Immerse yourself in breathtaking color and contrast with cutting edge QLED on a screen so large it transforms any room into your personal theater. And with watch free plus built in, you'll enjoy free live and on demand TV right out of the box. You can even stream your favorite music and podcasts with the iHeartRadio app. Head head to Walmart.com and bring home the Vizio 100 inch QLED TV today for only $16.98.

[Ad Read - Famous Footwear]

Hey, I'm Steffi. You may know me from your social feed. I go big for the holidays, so I'm going to Famous footwear because the best gifts are giving Famous. My friends and family are gonna love all these styles from Nike, Adidas, Crocs, New Balance, Skechers and more. With over 800 stores, you're never far from the perfect gift. So make your list and make it famous. Come in today for buy one pair. Get one half off at your local famous footwear or famous.com some exclusions apply.

[Robert Evans]

Welcome to the movies you liked as an adolescent and are now ashamed of. Shamecast. I'm Robert Evans and today in the seat of eternal self hatred, Jamie Loftus. Jamie, you have just admitted, admitted prior to the show starting that you once loved the Dana Carvey vehicle Master of disguise. What do you have to say for yourself?

[Jamie Loftus]

I feel fucking sick with myself.

[Robert Evans]

Rougher.

[Jamie Loftus]

I haven't been able to sleep in the 20 years since its release. In my defense, it came out on my birthday, which I feel like had a lot to do with why I considered it my favorite movie. I felt a kinship with it.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, birthdays are like a performance enhancing drug for movies that you see when you year 11.

[Jamie Loftus]

It's absolutely true.

[Robert Evans]

The blood doping of positive movie memories.

[Jamie Loftus]

And furthermore, it's the most famous children's movie that was shooting on 9 11. And so I think in that way it also felt like it would have been disloyal to my country to say a word against the master of disguise, particularly the turtle turtle scene. However, you know, I think the movie certainly doesn't hold up and I feel fucking sick with myself every single day.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, I wonder because famously Dana Carvey was dressed as the turtle man when those planes hit those towers and James Cameron was 20,000ft below sea level exploring the bottom of the ocean. And I wonder if they ever crossed paths at like a Hollywood event and started talking about 9 11. So what were you up to on that day?

[Jamie Loftus]

And then Mark Wahlberg just leans in apropos of nothing and is like, if.

[Robert Evans]

I was there, I would stopped it. Oh, Jamie. You know, I, I, I can honestly say 911 was the first time I felt like this country let Me down because it delayed the release of the seminal Tim Allen film Big Trouble, which it sure did. It sure did. Features a classic Patrick Warburton performance, by the way.

[Jamie Loftus]

It sure does.

[Robert Evans]

Goddamn right. You see his ass, everybody. If you want to see Patrick Warburton's ass, it's in the. That movie.

[Jamie Loftus]

He is so underrated. I tell.

[Robert Evans]

Absolutely.

[Jamie Loftus]

I love that man.

[Robert Evans]

A total king.

[Jamie Loftus]

What a talent.

[Sophie]

Look hard, friends, just to say this is behind the back.

[Robert Evans]

This is behind the Bastards, a podcast about none of the things that we were talking about. And today, actually, Jamie, I've got you back in the hot seat, back in the office, which is more of an ephemeral feeling than a physical space these days.

[Jamie Loftus]

Making me answer for my sins right off the jump.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, by talking again about our friend Sam Bankman Fried, who you and I chatted about right after his life collapsed last year. And I felt like we should do an update.

[Jamie Loftus]

I think we should, too, because I'll be honest, I have done truly everything I can to avoid knowing more about him. So I would say I know basically nothing about him since we left last spoke.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, it's. It's amazing because normally, you know, I'm an empathetic being. Like, Sam has a face that I've just always wanted to hit from the first time I saw a picture of him. And normally when somebody goes through this much when, like, their life is this ruined, Right? Like, I. I might. I feel a little less like hitting them because the world has hit them, but I still kind of want to sock him in the fucking jaw every time I see this guy.

[Jamie Loftus]

Let me just check it. Has his face changed?

[Robert Evans]

He wears suits sometimes now when he goes to court. He's not wearing the basketball shorts.

[Jamie Loftus]

Helpful.

[Robert Evans]

Well.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, that's true. God, yeah. That's like two different versions of an embarrassing, desperate way to present. Okay, he's wearing a. He's wearing a suit now.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, he's wearing a suit now. It looks like shit, but whatever. Of course it does. I try not to judge people on how they look, unless that's part of things. Their con. And. And Sam is a guy for whom the dressing like a slob was always part of his. His, like, tech bro, genius, you know, Persona that he was putting on.

[Jamie Loftus]

Like, did we fooled everybody?

[Robert Evans]

Oh, yeah, yeah. There's. I believe there's a mug shot of him out at this point, certainly when he went at the Bahamas. So when we last left our buddy Sam In November of 2022, he had been arrested in the Bahamas and extradited to the United States. United States, where he was charged with so many financial crimes that he might theoretically spend more than 115 years in prison. Wow. Now, in the days and months since, a lot has happened and a lot more has come out about how the former crypto mogul behaved before and after his fall. I want to start with some of the latter information because by far the most entertaining story to drop as a result of these serried legal filings against Sam is that he was using the non profit arm of FTX to attempt to buy a sovereign nation he could use as an apocalypse shelter. That is by far the funniest story that's dropped about these guys in the days, months since.

[Jamie Loftus]

What was the plan there?

[Robert Evans]

Oh, that's a great, great question, Jamie. So let's talk about the island of Nauru. It's an island in the Southwest Pacific. I think it's about 2,100 miles away from the coast of Australia, which, given the fact that Australia is really out in the middle of nowhere, is pretty close to us Australia. It is presently the world's smallest island nation. It's got a population of about 12,000 or so, not a ton of people. And as an incredibly tiny country, one of its primary assets is simply the fact that it is a sovereign nation. Because there's things that countries can do that nothing else can do, like issue certain kinds like passports and visas and do certain kinds of things with banking. Right. So if you're a really tiny country that doesn't have like a shitload of natural resources sources, one thing you can export is the benefits of your sovereignty to say, really rich people who, who might want certain things that you can do as a country.

[Jamie Loftus]

Plan is coming together.

[Robert Evans]

So there's a number of ways in which Nauru has kind of taken advantage of this to get by. One of them is that they've sort of sold access to their land to Australia to use, so that Australia has used them for years as an offshore processing center for asylum seekers. I think this stopped most recently in 2019, but there's been a couple of waves of this and it was not a pleasant place. Right. Conditions were so brutal in sort of the offshore processing center on Nauru from 2012 to 2019 that several residents carried out like deadly forms of protests, sewing their own lips shut or lighting themselves on fire as a protest of the conditions they were facing. Pretty ugly scene in the late 1990s, kind of. Prior to this period, Nauru was the chief money laundering location for the emerging Russian oligarch class they helped a lot of these oligarch types you've heard about in the context of Putin launder about $70 billion in ill gotten funds during the early stages of the Russian Federation.

[Jamie Loftus]

I love a good bastards cameo.

[Robert Evans]

Oh yeah, no, Naru. Naru's. Naru's adjacent to a whole lot of shit city people.

[Jamie Loftus]

Great.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. Here. It's a lovely place. Nardu was also designated a money laundering state by the US treasury in 2002, which led to sanctions, which I think is probably why they moved to like letting Australia offshore migrants there for a while. And since Australia stopped doing that in 2019, Sam Bankman Fried and his fellow effective altruists felt like they might have had an opportunity there. Right. Like Naru's kind of looking for some new cash flow. They're looking for a sovereign nation to do some things for.

[Jamie Loftus]

It's. It's an opportunity to be effective.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, yeah, to be effectively altruistic towards yourself. Specifically Sam and his brother Gabriel. Bankman Fried is actually the guy sort of like organizing this attempted endeavor using FTX's charitable donations arm. And their goal was to purchase the entire island in order to construct what Gabe called a bunker shelter that would be used to quote, ensure that most effective altruists survive in the event that between 50% and 99.99% of the world population perish in a catastrophe.

[Jamie Loftus]

Jesus. And that's like a pretty common this. I feel like the Gabe of the situation is a very common character in Bat. Like just the devious brother. I, I mean I hate the bastard most of all, but I really detest the, the devious bro. There's just, it just reeks of insecurity. Get your own grift, man.

[Robert Evans]

Especially since they're framing it not as. Look, you know when you got like a guy like Peter Thiel, right? And everybody knows Peter Thiel's got like an evil rich guy bunker to wait out the end of the world if it happens. And like fuck Peter Thiel. But at least that's Peter Thiel's not pretending I have a bunker to like save the world by putting aside just the best people. He's like, no, I'm a giant piece of shit and I'm going to save myself if things go wrong. Okay, like fuck you, Peter Teal. But at least it's all honest. They're framing it as like a blood.

[Jamie Loftus]

Bunker for just boys.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, it's me and my blood boys. Gabe is like, no, we have to. In the event there's an apocalypse, we have to save all the EAs, because they're the best people. And that's what's best for the world that we'll do. We're utilitarians, right? The greatest good for the greatest number of people is to save all of the best people, which is me and my friends, the other finance kids who call themselves effective altruists so they don't have to feed. Feel bad for the fact that all they do is play the stock market like every other piece of.

[Jamie Loftus]

Anyway, so lucky that they all met each other.

[Robert Evans]

So lucky that they're all friends, all the good people. Yeah, I would love. I would love. Honestly, like, look, when the. When the strike is over, somebody at a network bring me on. I will write you a banger script about an apocalypse where just the EA guys are left in their bunker trying to figure out society.

[Jamie Loftus]

Okay. Another incentive to end the strike. That would fucking rip.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, yeah, we could do. We could do quite a tale. We could have some fun with this one, Jamie.

[Jamie Loftus]

And, you know, I don't. I think that there would be some effective altruists, like, ridiculous enough to do cameos.

[Robert Evans]

Oh, yeah, we could get. We could get fucking William McCaskill in there, no problem. Bring his Scottish ass on board. Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

Vain little perverts, each and every one.

[Robert Evans]

One of them. And. And they're all. They're all. I'm going to be honest, kind of stupid. So I bet we could trick him. Like you don't have journalistic ethics with an HBO show. Yeah, we could just say we're bringing them on for an interview. We could, like, film around them like an. What was that fucking movie with Steve Martin where they. Where they have to film a fake movie around. What is it, Chris Rock?

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, it's the. It's.

[Robert Evans]

Oh, see, now you're. Now, now, now it's. I know. It's driving me. We have to figure this out.

[Jamie Loftus]

I rewatched it recently.

[Robert Evans]

It holds up.

[Jamie Loftus]

It does hold up. It's like one of the best movies.

[Robert Evans]

Bow Finger. Fucking dope. Yeah. We could do a Bow finger with William McCaskill where he thinks he's getting interviewed for a documentary and we're really making him the bad guy of our HBO series. Bring in Steve Martin to. Fuck it. He's still. He still got it.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, he's got good politics. He'd be great.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. Glad we remembered it. Watch Bowfinger, guys. It holds up.

[Jamie Loftus]

Truly, if you take anything away from today, it really does. I was shocked at how well it helped.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. Startlingly good movie. Pretty good. Like Scientology joke. So Gabriel Bankman Fried ran FTX's charitable donations wing, which included a ton of money for what many people have characterized as political bribes. I'm not saying, saying that he was bribing politicians for ftx. I'm saying that's what a lot of people have characterized what he was doing as. Now that much has been known for a while. But it was not until the current management of what remains of FTX sued Sam because again, there's new management that's trying to recover as much money as possible and they're throwing Sam under the bus because why wouldn't they? And that's how all this stuff got revealed, because they have all of FTX's internal communications. So they found a bunch of shit like that. Sam was having Gabriel try to buy the island of Nara. Now it is unclear how serious their attempt to buy this island was. A representative of the island's government has been like no, no, no, we were never putting our island for sale. This was never a thing that was going to happen. And maybe that is the case. Maybe they were just being idiots, fucking around. But in a memo between Gabriel and an FTX officer, the discussion was centered around the idea of buying the island, of being in control of it as a sovereign country, not just purchasing. Purchasing land, which is cool.

[Jamie Loftus]

I mean that's a lot of work for a bit. Not that I put it past him, but I'm just like. It's not sounding like it.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, no, and I, I think I. I don't put it past I. It's possible that Nauru, whatever is telling the, whatever government officials telling the truth, they were never considering selling the island. But it's also possible that Gabe at all believed they could buy the island. Right?

[Jamie Loftus]

Right, Right. They may in fact be that dumb.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now there were discussions between these FTX guys about using NARU as a base for human genetic experimentation. You get the feeling that their goal was to create modified post human godlike bodies for their fellow effective altruists so that they could live forever and dominate mankind after the collapse as undying immortals.

[Jamie Loftus]

That just sent the ugliest photoshopped image like it was involuntary. How quickly the like no neck, huge chest, Photoshop super soldier came to mind.

[Robert Evans]

Absolutely.

[Jamie Loftus]

Okay, okay, it's a.

[Robert Evans]

It sounds like a mix between that one video game with the big robot dinosaurs and those sci fi books by that guy who wound up being real anti Muslim. But yeah, oh yeah, it could be.

[Jamie Loftus]

A lot of guys. I wonder. What? Which guy?

[Robert Evans]

Oh it's. I Think Ilium and Olympos. Okay, I forget the name of the author, but the premise of the book is that, like, in the future, a bunch of rich guys turn themselves into gods and decide to, like, recreate the Trojan War with themselves as the Greek gods, and they, like, resurrect a bunch of dead archeologists to make sure that they get the details right. It's. It's fun. It's, it's. It's quite a series, except for the weird moments of bigotry.

[Jamie Loftus]

That'll happen.

[Robert Evans]

Good stuff. Dan Simmons, I think, is the author. Anyway, so, yeah, they're talking about, we want to create a human genetic experimentation base. And they're like, we want to figure out what the sensible regulations around human genetic enhancement are, but we also want to build a lab. And while they're talking about this, Gabriel adds cryptically, probably there are other things it's useful to do with a sovereign country. I don't know what he means by that, but yeah, probably. Huh? So that could be as banal as just like, money laundering, which Naru obviously has quite a history of, or issuing things like passports. But given the fact that all these dummies are permanently poisoned by a mixture of sci fi fandoms and weird futurist cults, I think it's safe to say we all dodged a bullet by the fact that they never got too far in this scheme. Now, my favorite thing about this whole idea is how dumb it is on its face. There are some countries that could actually act as really good apocalypse shelters for the super rich, right? Switzerland is one. A lot of rich people have their apocalypse shelters in Switzerland. New Zealand is another. But the problem for that is that, like, Switzerland and New Zealand are both functional states. Obviously if you're a billionaire there, you can have some outsized influence, but you're not just going to run everything because there's other interests and, like, a functional system of government in place in all of those places. I think Sam and them were hoping that since Nauru's small enough, they could just utterly dominate the. The government, but they ignored the fact that it's like, one of the worst places imaginable to have an as an apocalypse shelter. For one thing, the island does not grow much food, which means it has to import 90% of what it needs to sustain its very small population. It has.

[Jamie Loftus]

It's all good. We have so much money, it's okay.

[Robert Evans]

We'll just keep importing it. Yeah. It also has very little fresh water, and most of its infrastructure is on the coast and vulnerable to both rising sea levels and hurricanes. It is very close to the bottom of places that you would want to have as a shelter. So very funny. All these people are silly. Now Jamie, the main reason current FTX is revealing all this is that they are suing the old management of the country company, I. E. Sam, to try and reclaim a billion or so dollars they argue was funneled illegally into nonsense like this and into the pockets of Bankman Fried and his lieutenants in the months before FTX collapsed due to insurance solvency. The lawsuit against SAM also includes some more confounding lines described in this paragraph from an article on the suit by crypto news site Decrypt. The lawsuit further says that the projects run by the FTX foundation were frequently misguided and sometimes dystopian. These included a $300,000 grant to an individual to write a book about how to figure out what humans utility function are, as well as a $400,000 grant to an entity that posted YouTube videos to related related to rationalist and effective altruism material, including videos on grabby aliens. Now, does that all seem like nonsense to you? Jamie?

[Jamie Loftus]

I don't know, Robert. Let's hear them out about the grabby aliens.

[Robert Evans]

Don't worry, I'm going to explain all of this horseshit to you.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh my God, what kind of Rick and Morty ass nonsense?

[Robert Evans]

It is some Rick and Morty ass nice nonsense. It's much dumber than anything in Rick and Morty because at least some of the people there understand story structure, unlike.

[Jamie Loftus]

Them at least understand that it's a joke.

[Robert Evans]

That it's a bit yes, yeah. So if you aren't terminally adhered to one of the stupidest subcultures in the broader tech sphere, that probably does seem like nonsense. And it is. But let's start with the bit about paying someone 300 grand to write about what a human's utility function is. Is now, what is a utility function? Great question. In economics, a utility function is the measure of welfare or satisfaction of a consumer as a function of the consumption of real goods like food. In simple terms, it's a way of describing the satisfaction or other benefits gained by consuming a specific resource. This is important to rational choice theory, which is a theory that states that individuals use rational calculations to make rational choices to achieve outcomes aligned with their own objectives. Now, most people who aren't economists think that talking about the economy this way is silly because people are not in fact rational actors. And in fact we make shitty decisions all the time. Guided by misinformation or pressure that causes us to inaccurately interpret the potential value of something like a college education versus the cost of say student loans. Right?

[Jamie Loftus]

One could argue that Sam Baker and Fried and Co are a great example.

[Robert Evans]

Of wonderful example of the erection, but that's economics. This is not an economics podcast. I'm not an economist. And the way that Bankman Fried and his fellow EAs talk about utility functions is not the same as how economists talk about it. Right? So when economists are talking about this, it's part of how to kind of figure out why people might make rational choices by understanding like the value of sort of their the ranked like preference they give to certain things that they might expend resources on. Broadly speaking speaking, when Bankman Fried and EAS talk about utility functions, what they mean is something even more abstract. And I'm going to quote from a summary from a write up on a felt effective altruism.org a website you should avoid at all costs. Quote.

[Jamie Loftus]

I'm really not looking forward to finding out how this somehow relates to the grabby aliens.

[Robert Evans]

Sorry, in a in a very dumb way. Jamie, quote.

[Jamie Loftus]

Okay, good.

[Robert Evans]

EAs and rationalists love dropping the term in every conversation. Using the term utility function can be immune to immensely helpful when aiming to maximize positive impact or do the most good. The concept of a utility function provides a systematic way to quantify and compare the potential benefits of different actions, thus helping to guide decision making toward the most effective outcomes. By representing values, goals, or beneficial outcomes numerically, utility functions allow for a structured comparison and prioritization of actions. If, for example, your goal is to alleviate global suffering, you could assign values to different charitable actions based on their estimate of an impact, thus creating a utility function. This function can then guide you to allocate your resources like time or money, where they will generate the greatest utility or good. Now that just seems like you're saying you should try to figure out how your money's gonna be spent best right before you spend it. But that's not actually what they're saying. What they are doing here is they are. They are set like A utility function in this context is a way of assigning a number that you have made up. There is no objective value to this number. There's no rigor to this. You are making up a number to to like determine the value of spending your money in certain ways. And you are doing this so that whatever it is you want to do with your money, you can justify numerically as the scientifically best way to spend Your money. So I see you can, you can argue in this way by assigning these values whenever wonky way you want. No, me paying taxes to fund roads and the healthcare system is a shitty use of my money because it doesn't optimize this thing that I consider to be of higher long term value. And the thing that's of higher long term value to me is spending money on fucking space travel research so that I can be a demigod on Mars. Right? That's best for human beings in the long term. So in utilitarian speak, you know, the greatest good for the greatest number of people is us getting to Mars as opposed to feeding starving people right now. You know, the utility function of getting to Mars is much higher. So that's where our money ought to go.

[Jamie Loftus]

Well, it's all. Yeah, it just like comes down to like the great. The greatest good is me smiling a little bit.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, exactly. There's literally at least some writing on that in that vein. So it is through math like this that EAs are able to look at a world where millions face death by famine or disease or rising sea levels and say the best way to help the planet is for us to become finance bros and then spend our money investing in AI companies or whatever. The fundamental selfishness of this whole community is made clear when you read the essays these people write on their websites. Like Less wrong, a blog founded by self declared aix. Yeah. Eliza Yudkowski. Yudkowski is a radio rationalist, which is a related subculture to the EAs. There's a lot of bleed over Sam and a lot of his people were. Were rationalists. Irrationalist adjacent and yeah, yeah. To. To give you an idea of how these people talk about utility functions, I'm going to read an excerpt from an article on this website titled your utility function is your utility function by David Udell. I've been thinking a lot lately about exactly how altruistic I am. The truth is that I'm not sure I care a lot about not dying and about my girlfriend and family and friends not dying and about all of humanity not dying and about all life on this planet not dying too. And I care about the glorious transhuman future and all that and the 10 to the 50th power or whatever posi possible good future lives hanging in the balance. And I care about some of these things disproportionately to their apparent moral magnitude. But what I care about is what I care about. Rationality is the art of getting more of what you want. Whatever that is of systematized winning by your own lights. You will totally fail in that art if you bulldoze your values in a desperate effort to fit in or to be a good person or to, or in the mod in the way you're a model of society seems to ask you to. So you see what he's, he's saying, if you read between the lines there, what the most rational thing for me to do is whatever makes me feel.

[Jamie Loftus]

Best, whatever gives me a little smile.

[Robert Evans]

Don't let people shame you for spending your resources, you know, entirely on yourself and your own whims. Like you're actually a hero if you, you do that.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, it is, it is so fascinating to me to watch. Like, I don't know, it seems like this like self conscious reflex where they feel the need to define rational by something that is more closely reli, like aligned with reality and then immediately be like. But what that actually means is the exact opposite.

[Robert Evans]

The core of it is always being able to say that like, well, if you suggest that number one, I have a responsibility to other people and that that responsibility is to some extent out of my hands. Which is what we all say when we're in a society, right? I don't have kids. I don't have a choice not to spend some of the significant amount of money I pay in taxes educating other people's kids. Now I'm not a complete piece of shit, so I'm fine with that because like, I've, I've done very well for myself and kids need educations. That's just a nice way for the world, world to work. But these people are more of the feeling that like, no, I should do whatever is possible to avoid paying for, you know, a public school system. And in fact, I'm often going to advocate for some sort of like weird voucher based system that allows me to not fund public schools because the greatest good for the greatest number of people is for me to ensure that like me and my rich kid friends all get to send our kids to special schools where like, where what? You know, fuck anybody else. Like, I don't have any other responsibility for the broader population. All that actually matters is like me maximizing, you know, my own personal happiness. But I still want to feel like, like I'm a hero for doing it, right? If I avoid paying taxes in order to like spend all of my money investing in open AI so that I can like take people's jobs away. Like, I want to feel like a hero for doing that because what I'm arguing is that it's best for you know, the people 500 years from now and there's going to be more of them than there are today. So I'm a her for like getting rich off of this company today, you know.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yes, well, because there's, first of all, there's definitely going to be people in 500 years.

[Robert Evans]

Sure. For sure. Definitely. Gary, if these EAs get their way. Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

If we are doing the most good there. That, that's so exhausting. I mean it does like your Peter Thiel example. Not that you know, doing evil is good in any capacity, but the most exhausting kind of evil is the one that also insists on you. Valid that it's not actually evil all the time.

[Robert Evans]

That it deserves to shut the fuck.

[Jamie Loftus]

Up and ruin my life or don't.

[Robert Evans]

It's the same thing with a lot of these fucking right wing media grifters where like it's not enough for them to be rich. It's not enough for them to like get their way politically. They, they, they feel like they have like an ethical, they're owed like being cool and respected and it's the same like these people are all finance ghouls. They are all like actively fighting to avoid paying taxes and to be able to concentrate ever more power in an ever smaller number of people to destroy the lives of you know, artists and people who are like working folks in order to like make more short term profits. This is all what they actually care about personally. But they want to feel like Gandhi while they do it right. Because what they're doing is guaranteeing what they'll argue, Jamie, is that like, well you know, this may hurt this company. You know, me getting involved in this company. Sure we may destroy a lot of jobs in the short term, but by doing so we'll be able to make sure that the AI we build that eventually becomes our God is one that cares about the future of humanity and that's better for the most people in the long run.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yes. And history should remember me as the greatest man to ever live. And people will, you know, that'll be on television someday when my computer is writing every television television show.

[Robert Evans]

Fucking hate these people. So yeah, it's, it's cool stuff. And I think the, the fundamental selfishness of these people because all that effective altruism and rationalism are really about is by, is creating a made up system of numbers to justify you pursuing your own benefit as like science, right? As like scientifically rational.

[Jamie Loftus]

This is really, it's, it's not as if that doesn't, you know, like math problems to serve a very small group self interest. It's not as if that exit doesn't exist outside of this circle, but it's just like bizarre how uniquely like they lack any sort of self awareness or. I don't know, it's just they're so fucking annoying is what I'm trying to say.

[Robert Evans]

That's very true, Jamie. And this is all really clear when you look at how the movement, the EA movement, treated Sam Bankman fried before and after after his fall from grace. If effective altruism can be said to have a Pope, and it can, because all of these Silicon Valley philosophical movements are just Kirkland brand Catholicism, that pope is Will McCaskill, an Oxford moral philosopher and co founder for the center for Effective Altruism. When FTX collapsed and Sam got arrested, he was quick to put out a statement of outrage. I don't know which emotion is stronger, my other rage at Sam and others for causing such harm to many people or my sadness and self hatred for falling for this deception. Now the only reason I would hesitate to call this horseshit, Jamie, is that horseshit, by virtue of being inanimate waste, possesses a fundamental honesty that McCaskill is incapable of. He and SBF. Yeah. Fuck yeah, Robert.

[Jamie Loftus]

That's the bitchiest thing I've heard you say in a while. That's awesome. Thank you.

[Robert Evans]

Thank you. He and SBF met back at MIT when Sam was an undergrad. McCaskill convinced him that he could maximize his impact in humanitarian causes by earning to give, you know, making as much money as possible so that he can give it away in a way that presumably will help the world. Now, when Sam ultimately launched Alameda Research, it was an EA project from the start, staffed by Sam's friends in the community. One software engineer told Time. Almost everyone who came on in those early days was an ea. They were there for EA reasons, says Naya Buscal, a former software engineer at Alameda. That was the pitch we gave people. This is an EA NBA thing.

[Jamie Loftus]

I know I'm once again thinking about sports video games and I know it's not sports video games.

[Robert Evans]

It is. It is basically a sports video game.

[Sophie]

I just thought the flashback to your. To the interview you did, I was.

[Jamie Loftus]

Thinking, okay, it's true, it's true.

[Robert Evans]

In the early days, Sam's pitch was that 50% of the company profits would be donated to EA causes. And the initial round of investing that got the company off the ground was funded entirely by rich E. Publicly, McCaskill asked about, talked about Sam like he was the EA Messiah, probably because FTX's Future Fund provided a huge amount of support for his movement. And just nine months in 2022, the Future Fund, run by Nick Beckstead, a moral philosopher who used FTX money to support various causes, gave more than $160 million in other people's money funneled through FTX to effective altruism, including $33 million to organizations that McCaskill had a direct interest in. So that's why McCaskill spoke so positively about Sam, which is it's made even more fucked up when you realize that, like other people in the EA movement had started warning McCaskill about Sam Bankman Fried and about him being a con man as early as 2018. And I'm going to quote again from Time. This is about. From like the very start of Alameda Research. Within months, the good karma of the venture dissipated in a series of internal clashes, many details of which have not been previously previously reported. Some of the issues were personal. Bankman Fried could be dictatorial, according to one former colleague. Three former Alameda employees told TIME he had inappropriate romantic relationships with his subordinates. Early Alameda executives also believed he had reneged on an equity arrangement that would have left bankman Fried with 40% control of the firm, according to a document reviewed by time. Instead, according to two people with knowledge of the situation, he had registered himself as sole owner of Alameda. So basically, Sam has unethically taken control of the firm and all of the money invested in it. And he is like fucking his subordinates.

[Jamie Loftus]

I was like, and he's also a sex pest.

[Robert Evans]

He's also a sex pest.

[Jamie Loftus]

Surprising thing that I've ever heard in my entire life.

[Robert Evans]

Taking as that is money from people's what are effectively bank accounts and ftx. And he's using it to prop up the value of different crypto tokens on Alameda to make shit look like it, which is money laundering, right? That's all. It's like theft and money. It's fraud thought, you know.

[Jamie Loftus]

Or is it the future, Robert, Remember that? I mean, yeah.

[Robert Evans]

Remember what Larry David taught us all?

[Jamie Loftus]

I know there were some really unforgivable.

[Robert Evans]

It's pretty funny. It is. Of all. It is like I am on team. Like, I can't be angry at Larry David because honestly, if Larry David advertises a financial product and you decide he seems like a good guy to advice, he said, this seems like a credible company to me. I don't know. That's a little bit on you, right? That's a little bit on you.

[Jamie Loftus]

Who else was in that commercial? There was. That was a. That was a damning commercial.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, it is. It is. I still say arrest Larry David, but that's for a variety of reasons.

[Jamie Loftus]

So I'm curious what your other reasons are. But that's for another day.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, that's for a different day. So this caused. So again, all of this shit. That is why this is like everything that the was obvious in Alameda in 2018. This is all the stuff that he gets arrested for in 2022. And when they become aware of this, of the fact that he's fucking his subordinates and money laundering, a bunch of EA people start raising alarm bells. In 2018, several Alameda executives try to force him out of the company and accuse him of grossness negligence. Sam wins the power struggle, though, and so most of the EA management team and half of the company resign. Now, this might be. You could see this as like, well, maybe those effective altruist types were just in it for the altruism, and once they saw Sam was shady, they packed up. And that's true for those individual people. You know, there's some decent people who just got caught up in the movement, and they clearly had some degree of moral integrity. But the broader effective altruism movement, including it bars incredibly low there, including Unbelievable Will McCaskill. Its Pope never disaffiliated from Sam. McCaskill was saying, talking about Sam like the second fucking coming up until late 2022. And in exchange for laundering Sam's reputation, Sam sent tens of millions of dollars, 160 million to EA causes in 2022 alone. And that's why McCaskill maintained movement ties with Bankman Fried, quote, in the weeks leading up to that April 2018 confrontation with Bankman Fried, and in the months that that followed, Macaulay and others who was one of the executives that left, warned McCaskill, Beck and Karnofsky about her co founder's alleged duplicity and unscrupulous business ethics, according to four people with knowledge of those discussions. Buscal recalled speaking to Macaulay immediately after one of macaulay's conversations with McCaskill in late 2018. Will basically took Sam's side, said Buzkal, who recalls waiting with McCauley in the Stockholm airport while she was on the phone. Will basically threatened her, Buzkall recalls. I remember my impression being that Will was taking a pretty hostile stance here and he was just believing Sam's side of the story, which made no sense to Me so Will again, perfectly willing to like throw down against, you know, the more honest people in his movement and personally threaten them in order to keep the money flowing to his fancy cause so that he can.

[Jamie Loftus]

Right. And then the second that it becomes, you know, PR inconvenient to keep the associate, there should be some. Maybe there is like a term for that of just like even the cadence of what you read earlier of just like the disingenuousness of like oh, I had no idea. Like you're like okay, no, you knew.

[Robert Evans]

Damn well what was going on and you knew that that's you. You were willing to continue pretending he was a good guy and aligned with your movement as long as the money kept flowing. Right.

[Jamie Loftus]

It. No, yeah. It no longer serves your best interests to stand by him. So yeah.

[Robert Evans]

So yeah. Now you'll. Anyway, so Sam, we don't actually know if he's completely bankrupt. We know he took about a billion in payments and loans from ftx. He claims not to really have any of that money and that he's. He's working on getting what assets he does have to like get try to make a few more of the investors that they had whole. That said, we know that a big chunk of the money that he made was funneled into real estate in his parents names. So that's fun. Speaking of his parents, one of the big early mysteries of his case was that when he gets out on $250 million bond, his parents are signed on to the bail agreement with their house as collateral. But there were also two mystery co signers and their house. We'll be talking about this in a second. Is on the Stanford campus. The two mystery co signers were Larry Kramer, a family friend and the former dean of the Stanford and Andreas Popkey, who signed a $200,000 bond. PopKey is a senior research scientist at Stanford and an advisor to several Valley startups. So Stanford is very invested primarily because of who Sam's parents are in. In this case, which is interesting to me and okay, because.

[Jamie Loftus]

Because that was. I mean that is my. Outside of his parents, I guess. Realistically, what is in it for them by taking that risk?

[Robert Evans]

I think it's actually just that these people are close with his parents who are professors at Stanford and deeply tied into that community.

[Jamie Loftus]

I can, I mean I can very much see like bougie, bougie parents with influence being like, Sam's just a boy. Anyone could have made this mistake. He thought he was doing the right thing. He got mixed in with the wrong stuff.

[Robert Evans]

This has to just be like some sort of crazy mistake because they can't imagine. Imagine. He just, it's so dumb and blatant. Like all he did was rob people in order to like gamble. Right? Like fundamentally there's not a difference between like him taking people's money, claiming that he's like, got a sure stock tip and then gambling at Vegas. Like legally there's no difference between that and what he did. But they can't because his parents are like ethicists basically at Stanford. And I, I don't think any of the people they are social with can imagine that his crimes were that venal and foolish. But you know whose crimes are not venal and foolish, Jamie?

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, tell me, Robert.

[Robert Evans]

The products and services that support our podcasts.

[Jamie Loftus]

I never encountered a product I didn't love.

[Robert Evans]

No, that's. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And we are. Are back. So initially the reason why these other Stanford people are secret signers on to this bail agreement is because they were afraid that they would be attacked because of how angry people are at Sam. And there was a reason for this. Shortly after he was sent to house arrest at his parents home, someone drove their car into a barricade set up outside of their house on the Stanford campus. Now as I stated earlier, both the elder Bankman Frieds are former Stanford professors and their home is on campus, which is created in issues for the school. The university still will not officially acknowledge that one of the world's most famous accused felons currently resides in their prestigious walled academic garden. One Washington.

[Jamie Loftus]

Stanford like really fumbles constant. Oh yeah, yeah, like it's absurd.

[Robert Evans]

It's because they're not really that smart.

[Jamie Loftus]

But well, well yes, this is again another great case for it. It's also like I don't know, just the argument arguing like well his parents are like ethicists. How could he be fucked up? It's like have you ever met someone raised a therapist? No offense but like the most fucked.

[Robert Evans]

Up people in the world.

[Jamie Loftus]

Not trying to call out any lovely but it like they know, they know. They have the language.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. Yeah. So one Washington Post article I found noted Stanford law school didn't respond to requests for comment when asked whether they could confirm a rumor that nearby student co op had attacked the bankman freed home with egg. Stanford campus police did not respond. Socially, however, Bankman Fried is a source of deep fascination. There are party flyers with his likeness. He's a punchline in campus comedy sketches. Students ride their bikes by on dates. The campus community is well aware he's there. An annotated map located the Bankman Fried home was posted on a student only social network.

[Jamie Loftus]

Okay, I be honest, if someone asked you out and they're like, here's my concept for a first date date. We're gonna go watch Sam Samuel banquet.

[Robert Evans]

We're getting married that night. Jamie.

[Jamie Loftus]

Right? I was like, we're, we're going like bring a flask, watch one of history's stupidest villains and then go figure each other in a parking lot.

[Robert Evans]

Absolutely. Jamie. That's. That's the dream. That's the dream. None of this. That's effective altruism right there. That's the greatest good for the greatest number of people.

[Jamie Loftus]

Sam could stand to learn a thing.

[Robert Evans]

Or two from these, these theoretical Stanford students. Yes. So if you. So again, Sam's parents are both well respected teachers and experts in different fields of ethics. Both were recruited to the university in the 1980s and they almost immediately hooked up. Barbara Fried made a name for herself as a. She's like a philosopher. Basically. Her big thing was she wrote a paper dissecting the ethics of the trolley problem. Whereas Joe Bankman is a finance ethics guy. He writes a lot about like, again, like not breaking the law with finance shit. It seems to be a big focus of his.

[Jamie Loftus]

This is a very obvious thing to say, but I do. In defense of the Bankman family. I do appreciate when someone really rolls with their last name. I think that that is a very fun quality. This is an example of it not working out. I think it's also equally bizarre when someone has a last name where you're like, why are you not doing that job? For example. Maybe I've told you this before. It's one of my favorite facts I've learned in my life. My childhood dentist's name was Dr. Vigenis. And nevertheless glorious Going into dentist teeth, for some reason I found it infuriating. I'm like, just roll with it, man. That's your last name.

[Robert Evans]

You are an ethics board needs to go after this guy. No, I'm sorry. I know you don't know how to do this job, but that's your life now. People will trust you until you figure it out. I do.

[Jamie Loftus]

You are the labia doctor.

[Robert Evans]

Speaking of nominative determinism, Joe Bankman would be. I wouldn't trust Joe Bankman as a trust drug dealer. But I wouldn't. I would, I would trust Johnny Cocaine as a financial expert, like, like as a stockbroker. Johnny Cocaine? Yeah. Let him invest my money. He knows what he's doing.

[Jamie Loftus]

I just, you know, say what you will about Joe Bankman and I'm sure you should. I know nothing about this man, but at least he got into the right business.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, he does. He does. Now I. People talk with like awe about this guy. Like he's so ethical. He's such like a decent man. He thinks so much about doing the right. When the Washington Post is like giving examples of noteworthy things in his past. One of the ones like how people.

[Jamie Loftus]

Talk about ted lasso.

[Robert Evans]

In 2002, he wrote a tongue in cheek suggestion on how to avoid a major league baseball strike. And his solution in this paper, that's supposed to be a joke, was to levy taxes on teams and players who struck that could only be avoided if the players donated money to charity or the teams agreed to sell nickel hot dogs. Josh Giants fans. Now I don't know what the joke is here, but it apparently tore it up among mid upper middle class Ivy League finance academics. They all talk about this as very funny.

[Jamie Loftus]

Wait, it comes up again as like. Remember when he said hot dog?

[Robert Evans]

It was in the Washington Post article about this guy. As like, look at a, look at this. This is like a noteworthy moment from his career. This like bad joke that he made. But I guess that's what fucking Stanford people think find funny.

[Jamie Loftus]

Imagine, maybe it's hilarious that.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, I, I don't get it. Christ.

[Jamie Loftus]

Maybe Stanford people were just like, think it's hilarious. Just like the word hot dog. They're like, ah, poor people food. Like I don't know.

[Robert Evans]

Now everything you find about these people is like, wow, taught, like is their friends talking about like, it's so shocking that this could happen, you know, These were like the best people we knew. They were so concerned about ethics. They raised their sons like little adults and they were always talking about utility totalitarianism. How could this have gone wrong? I don't know. I feel when I read anecdotes about them, like it's pretty obvious why it went wrong. And to kind of make that point, Jamie, here's a quote from an excellent write up by Puck News. Quote, Bankman, who once boasted to a friend that his father had dutifully recorded every cash receipt. Wrote three case books on tax shelters and tax evasion, becoming one of the country's leading experts on the subject. One of Bankman's law students in those early years was Peter Thiel, who later told Bankman that his tax law law class was his most valuable because he was able to put a lot of his Facebook Stock in an ira. As Bankman would later recall in a podcast, this modest feat of financial engineering would save Teal more than a billion dollars. So ethics, Jamie. Avoiding a billion dollars in taxes so that Peter Thiel can spend it giving Joe Swastika money to write New York Times columns on racism. Hooray. I love ethics.

[Jamie Loftus]

Holy. Yeah. And I. And here I was a clown, a fool about to be like, well, everyone wants to rebel against their parents. That's probably why he's a cartoon villain.

[Robert Evans]

When he talks ethics. It's not getting busted for being a piece of with money. That's what it seems like to me. Not an expert on ethics. Am an expert on being a piece of shit, though, so.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, but you're a far different piece of shit.

[Robert Evans]

Thank you, Jamie. Thank you.

[Jamie Loftus]

And I celebrate that about you. I like that is. But I mean, I'm not, I guess, shocked that that is exceedingly ethical to the Stanford crowd, but wow, damning.

[Robert Evans]

So anyway, Barbara Fried, being a good liberal, was horrified by the Trump election and chose to fight back by founding a political fundraising group, Mind the Gap, which was extremely successful during the Trump years and is rumored to have acted as the model for FTX's own political donations machine. Both of Sam's parents have seen their reputation suffer with his arrest. And I'm going to continue with a quote from Puck. Official property records show that Joe Bankman and Barbara Fried were the named owners of a $16.4 million beachside vacation home in Old Fort Bay, part of a broader real estate portfolio owned by FTX and senior executives totaling hundreds of millions of dollars. They may have stayed there while working with a company sometime over the last year, Sam said, though he denied knowing any details about the $300 million worth of real estate that FTX and his parents bought from in the Bahamas.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, okay. So they know about absolutely everything.

[Robert Evans]

And yeah, it sounds like it sounds like. Now, Joe and Barbara have said that they've been working to return the property to the company for some time. Working to Joe Bankman in particular has hardly been a passive observer in his son's scandal and may now be exposed to some legal risk himself. Bankman interviewed and hired the first lawyers for Alameda research back in 2017 and effectively served as FTX's first attorney. He handled the inbound that came and made the resulting introduction that helped FTX raise 130 million from his first former law student. Private equity mogul Orlando Bravo, spent his free time on FTX's charitable and regulatory efforts and was ultimately in the room before Sam made the fateful decision to sign the documents that declared chapter 11. So they seem very involved in shady themselves. I don't buy oh they're so innocent. Their son just broke, you know, made a mistake or whatever. They're all, they all just didn't think that this was criminal because the people's money they were taking were poor and their fucking stake. Stanford brats like I. I have no respect for them. I hope they lose their fancy Stanford house. They hurt a lot of people.

[Jamie Loftus]

Like yeah, particularly because I mean it sounds like this was their M.O. from the start anyways. So why would we now think that they would be above this behavior if they're like, oh no, here's a way. Like, I don't know, it seems like their definition of ethics is things you can technically get away with.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, it's not illegal for Peter Thiel to get this billion dollars that he doesn't pay taxes on because, you know, fuckery. Anyway, Mr. Bankman and Mrs. Freed have joined now the expanding cast of disgraced Stanford affiliates. This includes recently University president Marc Tessier Levine, currently accused of manipulating images on research papers in a way that is equivalent to falsifying lab data for Alzheimer's research. Obviously there's also bastards, POD alumni, the Theranos lady, another famous Stanford disgrace. And then there's the fact that their.

[Jamie Loftus]

Alumni keep my fan favorite Stanford disgrace.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, and then there's all their alumni who have created companies or helped run them that have shattered the foundations of our democracy in pursuit of a quick buck. Stanford's current reputation is so grimy that a Washington post article on SBF's associations with the school ends with these lines. And this is very funny, Jamie Adrian Dob, a Stanford professor of Comparative Literature and German studies and the author of what Tech Calls Thinking, sees an encouraging sign in Stanford being only peripherally involved in the Bankman. Frankly, that might not have been the case 10 years ago, he notes, when the Silicon Valley hype machine operated at more of a fever bitch than it does today. Other than his physical location, it's actually not that connected to us for once, Dob said. And that way it's a sign of progress and also a little bit melancholy. Stanford was a place where the future was shaped, so it's quite possible that's not happening anymore, that it's happening in the Bahamas now and only comes to Palo Alto once it gets indicted. That's so funny.

[Jamie Loftus]

I'm hung up on. Other than its physical location.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, other than the fact that he's here. He's not very involved.

[Jamie Loftus]

That's a big one, babe. That's a big one.

[Robert Evans]

But it does seem significant to me.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, no, if they're happy, I'm happy. That's great. It's funny we have to return to Elizabeth Holmes at some point because I'm very uniquely interested in her rebranding as well. Liz.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, genius, the Liz. Because now I've forgotten her horrible crimes.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, I forgot about all of her crimes. Once she had a cool and relatable name and had school and relatable babies.

[Robert Evans]

Hitler had escaped and started going by Alan.

[Jamie Loftus]

That's true. We can't take away that she scammed Henry. Henry Kissinger.

[Sophie]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

Scam people out of her their lives. But you know. Yeah, but the Henry Kissinger thing, we.

[Robert Evans]

Can I say we give her six months off as a result of the Kissinger scam.

[Sophie]

Yeah, that's fair to me.

[Robert Evans]

So this brings us to the subject of what precisely Sam Bankman Fried has been up to in the nine months or so since his fall from grace. The short answer is that he has not had a wonderful time. In January, a month or so after he was granted bail under house arrest, the Southern District of New York accused him of inappropriately contacting former and current FTX employees in order to influence their testimony on his case. Sam tried to frame all of this as part of his ill advised apology tour that he embarked on last year in the lag period between FTX collapsing and his formal charges.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, did he, did he hit the notes app? What happened?

[Robert Evans]

Oh, he's like calling them. Actually, I'm going to read a quote from Puck in order to describe how he's illegally contacting people. On December 12, the same day he was arrested in the Bahamas, Bankman Fried emailed FTX bankruptcy CEO John J. Rey Ray the Third, offering potentially pertinent information concerning future opportunities and financing for FTX and its creditors, and asked to work constructively with Ray and the Chapter 11 team to do what's best for customers. No response. Then, after his extradition, the crypto mogul sent another email to Ray on December 30 in which he offered advice accessing Alameda funds. Still no response. Then, while being summoned to court in New York, SBF tried Ray again on January 2nd. Mr. Ray, I know things haven't gotten off on the right foot, but I really do want to be helpful. As I'm guessing you've heard, I'm in NYC for the next day. I'd love to meet up while I'm here, even if just to say hi. Ready? Not take him up on this offer. And he has shit. He's reached out to several people and it's always like, I just want to help, you know, get as much money as we can for the customers. I just want to, you know, help you deal with the confusing aspects of this. But it's, it's like you're not supposed to be talking to people when you're in Sam's situation who were involved in the company like this because they're probably going to testify against you.

[Jamie Loftus]

I don't feel convinced that he understands that. I, I don't know. He's talking like a fucking spam email.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, he really is. And in general, Sam has opted to take all of the actions under house arrest that are likeliest to cause stress ulcers in his lawyers. In addition to repeatedly contacting FTX employees, he decided to start a substack where he planned to explain how ftx. And it's like there's that famous line from the Wire, are you taking notes on a criminal conspiracy? But in this case it's like, are you publishing blog posts about your criminal conspiracy after being indicted?

[Jamie Loftus]

She's growing an audience, Robert, relax. It's all a part of the plan.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, it's like if Al Capone had started a New York Times column on having people machine gun in alleys after he'd gone away to fucking Alcatraz.

[Jamie Loftus]

Hear me out, you guys. It actually makes lazy way more sense when I explain it.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, so neither. He only writes like I think two posts before he gives up because they're, they're bad. He's bad at blogging. I tried to read them. He's dog writer.

[Jamie Loftus]

Look, well, can I. I mean, not to be aggressive, but that's most sub stack people.

[Robert Evans]

It's just two women. They're out by the way. Find my substack.

[Sophie]

Yeah, not you, Robert.

[Robert Evans]

There's more.

[Jamie Loftus]

No, I know you have more than two, but I'm just saying, the average friend of the mine that harangues me into, you know, these damn emails, it's two and, and then they're done anyways. But I'm not, I'm. I'm probably going to start one that I'm just being insecure. I don't know what to do.

[Robert Evans]

In a couple of months, I think you'll beat Sam Bankman fried. No, no question, Robert.

[Sophie]

Your substack is great.

[Robert Evans]

Thank you.

[Jamie Loftus]

So your substack is great.

[Robert Evans]

Thank you, Jamie. This is, this has been wonderful. My ego.

[Jamie Loftus]

Much better actually. Read.

[Robert Evans]

So Sam's is bad though. And it's, it's bad, like in part. Part of what he's doing is like, he's been charged with a bunch of specific crimes, right? And the posts that he puts up, he does not acknowledge any of the charges against him. He doesn't like, defend himself from them. Instead he lays out a bunch of misleading and arcane spreadsheets to. To try and like, argue that the company shouldn't have collapsed the way it did and that he like, didn't realize, like, why he didn't realize it was so bad. He's just, he's doing. It's the same thing as like the EA shit we open the episode with, right? This throwing out like confusing piles of numbers in order to distract people, right? Like, this is just like chaff, you know, that's what he's doing is he's throwing out chaff in the way of a bunch of poorly formatted spreadsheets. They don't convince anyone that he's innocent.

[Jamie Loftus]

I was gonna say, but it sounds like it. Also, it did not not work.

[Robert Evans]

It did not work at all. You should not do this if you are being indicted for numerous financial crimes, btw. So in early February, the judge overseeing Sam's case forbade him from using encrypted messaging apps like Signal because he was so frequently trying to talk to other people who were part of this case with him in secret, which is illegal. He also got in trouble because he was caught using a vpn, which could have potentially allowed him to hide his computer communications. Sam argued he was just using a VPN to access his international NFL game pass account so he could pay attention.

[Jamie Loftus]

I was like, did he just say he was trying to watch Canadian Netflix? That would be fucking classic.

[Robert Evans]

Hey, Officer, I just had a lot of shit to torrent, homie.

[Jamie Loftus]

Like, you get it, my man.

[Robert Evans]

He has since been limited to a normal flip phone due to his repeated inability to abide his by bail conditions. Okay? Now, some might note that Sam has already gotten more second chances than most accused criminals get with their bail conditions. It seems accurate to say that the leniency he has received gave him reason to feel as if he could act with impunity. Which is why a couple of weeks ago, he leaked his ex girlfriend's diary to the New York Times, which is.

[Jamie Loftus]

Take Me through the Witches. Why?

[Sophie]

That, that, that wasn't what I thought you were going to say.

[Robert Evans]

I know, I know. Nobody thought it was gonna happen here.

[Jamie Loftus]

You know, I. I mean, it's. Although it seemed like we were due for another spiteful action against a woman for seemingly no reason.

[Robert Evans]

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Now I will say I don't like this woman either. Carolyn Ellison is, I think, a pretty shitty person. She was the.

[Jamie Loftus]

We spoke about her last time, right?

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, yeah, she. Unpleasant lady. She was the former CEO of Alameda. I've been fucking listening to this podcast called Spellcaster, which is like a wondery podcast about Sam Bank. I don't like it. The woman who does it like was at a. Was at a bachelorette party with Carolyn Ellison right before the charges dropped and was like, oh, she's so smart. She's so. And she repeats the same bullshit everyone says about Sam. They were such. They were like geniuses. And it's like, no, they just like blew out a bunch of numbers you didn't understand and convinced you they were smart because they said numbers, right? Like, there's nothing these people have done that is smart with situations like that.

[Jamie Loftus]

I'm like, I guess I appreciate the disclosure, but like, why the fuck were you hired to do this show?

[Robert Evans]

Well, it's. It's because big media is just as tiny and insular a world full of rich people as finance. And in fact, a lot of the same families have people at the Times and people and fucking investment banks. Which is why here at Cool Zone Media, we. We exclusively hire people who used to sell ketamine on their college campuses in order to get by. You know, that's, that's, that's the Cool Zone own guarantee or Adderall. You know, that's.

[Jamie Loftus]

I was.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

And I appreciate that you made an exception for some of us that you didn't have to be good at it. You just had to try.

[Robert Evans]

No, in fact, we will not hire you. If you were good at selling drugs.

[Jamie Loftus]

On college campus, why did you even.

[Robert Evans]

Apply to this mediocre part time campus? Drug dealers. That's our, that's our hiring pool. Yeah, that's our like, I don't know. Whatever. I don't know the names of enough fancy New York.

[Sophie]

Really not that big a, of, of a stretch, let's be honest. And I'm proud of that.

[Robert Evans]

So am I. So Carolyn Ellison, former CEO of Alam and also Sam's on again, off again bow. She immediately turns.

[Sophie]

I don't like you using the term bow, but continue.

[Jamie Loftus]

That's what it means.

[Robert Evans]

Boo. Should I use boo?

[Jamie Loftus]

I kind of like boo.

[Sophie]

I, I was like, like, I was like. That doesn't really make sense, but I like it.

[Robert Evans]

They were kobos. So she immediately turned state's Witness and admitted guilt for her share of the illegal activities committed by Alameda. And she apparently, as a part. As part of immediately rolling, handed over her diary. I think that's how they got her diary. It was part of the terms of, like, the. Yeah. So it gets introduced into evidence, which obviously, Sam, I think, will get access to as a result of that, because that's the way discovery works. I believe that's how he got her diary.

[Jamie Loftus]

Was she also a Stanford head?

[Robert Evans]

I don't think she went to. I think she. Her parents were professors at mit.

[Jamie Loftus]

Wow. Low losers over at M. Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

Hobo university right there.

[Jamie Loftus]

And until it happens to me, I love when someone's diary is introduced into evidence. And that brings me back to Elizabeth Holmes yet again. When she, like her creepy little, little sex with Sunny Balwani. Ooh.

[Robert Evans]

Some of the worst. Some of the very worst sex.

[Jamie Loftus]

That is maybe the moment that I felt closest to her. That's when she. That's when Liz almost got me because she was sending walls of text to this guy and then he was sending back. Okay. And it's like, you know what?

[Robert Evans]

Brutal. No, no, she deserved. She deserved a man like Jeff Bezos, who would call her the most unsettling nickname I've ever heard, you know? But at least he responded alive girl.

[Sophie]

Oh, that's right. That's right.

[Jamie Loftus]

Wow. Oh, I think we.

[Robert Evans]

We as.

[Sophie]

We, we, we, we, we. We as a collective blocked that out intentionally.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, it's very funny. It does make it clear that he's not a robot because, like, nobody. Nobody fakes that. That's. That's a. That's evidence that he feels something. What he feels is all off putting. It's frightening. It's like, profoundly unsettling. But he does feel something.

[Jamie Loftus]

But unfortunately, yeah, ChatGPT could have outdone that in terms of sounding like a person.

[Robert Evans]

Absolutely. Yeah. So anyway, Sam gets access to her diary one way or the other, and then he hands her diary to the New York Times so that they can write an article about it. Now, that is unethical as fuck and possibly illegal. The prosecution has asked that he be. Be jailed, that his bail be revoked because of what he did here. Sam's. This is still going on as we talk. I'll record a little update if he does go to jail as a result of this. Hey, everyone. Robert here just wanted to update you that since we recorded this episode a couple of days before you're hearing it, Sam Bankman Fried was remanded to custody. He is incarcerated now, and he will remain in jail after violating his bail conditions until his trial in October at you know, least, and possibly well beyond that, depending on how the charges and sentencing and all that stuff go. I should note that kind of the most recent story after that is that his lawyers requested that he be allowed to have his ADHD medication and depression medication, which he ran out of soon after being taken into custody. The judge has ordered that he be given that medication. Obviously, I'm always in favor of people who are incarcerated having access to medication, if anyone's interested. I don't actually think putting Sam in jail's going to do much good. I'm a little bit more mixed on this than I normally am. Just because of the case of Adam Newman, the wework guy who got off scot free from his giant financial crimes and is now starting another giant grift company and will probably fuck with a bunch of other people people's lives. But I do kind of think it's unlikely that we're going to get much benefit out of this. That said, I don't really feel for Sam. He had many, many chances not to be in this situation and he fucked all of them up. So you know the guy. Sam's lawyers have argued he was not attempting to discredit a weak a witness, but just to respond to a toxic media environment which he says unfairly portrays him as a villain. And I guess we're part of that toxic media environment. Although, Sam, free tip here. Handing your ex girlfriend's diary to the New York Times is a bad way to seem like not the villain. That's kind of villain behavior, homie.

[Jamie Loftus]

That's.

[Robert Evans]

Hate to tell you I again, but.

[Jamie Loftus]

It'S like, again, you can imagine his like doofy loser fucking logic of like, no, officer, I was just being a petty bitch. Is that against the law? And you're like, in this case.

[Robert Evans]

Yes, yes, it is actually, sir. So humorously enough, that is the legal argument his lawyers are making. And they, they kind of have a point because they're like, look, if you read the New York Times article based on her diary, he seems like a piece of shit. So clearly we weren't trying to influence the prosecution. And like, they do have a point because he does come across as the bad guy in that article that he made happen. So that's funny.

[Jamie Loftus]

He comes across as the bad guy in most. Thanks.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, I'm going to quote from some of that New York times coverage here, Mr. Bankman. Fried and Ms. Ellison have started an unsteady. Also started an unsteady romantic relationship. With multiple breakups and reconciliations. At times, Ms. Ellison worried that Mr. Bankman Fried thought she wasn't good enough when he was around. She wrote in February 2022 in a Google document. She had an instinct to shrink and become smaller and quieter and defer to others. After one split, Ms. Ellison cut off communication with Mr. Bankman Fried. I felt pretty hurt, rejected, she wrote in the April 2022 Google document. Not giving you the contact you wanted felt like the only way I could regain a sense of power. Ms. Ellison was compensated far less generously than other top executives at FTX and Alameda, though it's unclear whether she was aware of it. According to court filings, the exchanges, founders and other key employees received $3.2 billion in payouts and loans. Of that total, 6 million went to Ms. Ellison, compared with 587 million for Mr. Singh, FTX's head of engineering, and 246 million for Mr. Wang, one of the founders, Mr. Bankman Fried, received 2.2 billion. So Ellison is definitely not innocent here. She has admitted guilt in this case, but the reporting makes it seem as if her main role was to act as a patsy. Sam knew she was in love with him and deeply insecure, so he put her in charge of Alameda so that he could use it as the. Of. Part. Part of his grift to manipulate the value of his crypto empire using customer funds. And this basically the 6 million he gave her, which is a tiny fraction of the 3 billion they funneled to executives. That's like him paying her to be a smokescreen. Right? She's not an equal partner in this enterprise. And one of the things that had happened right before this fell apart is he had. He had stopped paying attention to her and Alameda in order to start throwing money through another crypto exchange run from a woman he was fucking. Now that he had like. So it seems like this was a pattern for him.

[Jamie Loftus]

Stop.

[Robert Evans]

What?

[Sophie]

I just.

[Robert Evans]

I'm not doing this. I'm just talking about what he did.

[Sophie]

I just really. I just.

[Robert Evans]

It's. Well, it's bad. He's a bastard. That's why we're talking about him.

[Jamie Loftus]

I just really. I just really need. I don't know who needs to hear this, but we just really need people to stop fucking Sam Bankman.

[Robert Evans]

That's my. Yes. Yes. This is very bad gross behavior.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, Gross. And it's bad for the.

[Robert Evans]

The world. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, fuck this guy. One bit of schadenfreude I can give you all. Is that According to Puck News, Sam's present situation is so unpleasant that he considers his trips across the country to go to court in New York the highlight of his life. Now, because he gets to, like, go out in the street, he's surrounded by lawyers and private security, so it's like he's got an entourage again. He gets to travel. This is like the closest he gets to feeling like, what he used to be, a billionaire. So that's kind of fun. The downside is, from the perspective of an SBF hater, the downside is that recently one of his charges was dismissed. The campaign finance violation. This was not due to him being innocent, but due to some legal weirdness involving the letter of the extradition agreement the US signed with the Bahamas. Basically, when we put together the agreement so that they'd extradite him, that was not on the document. So the feds had to, like, drop the charge in order to not deal with a bunch of. Of other bullshit. It's a technicality. But it means that his brother Gabe and several members of the philanthropic team at FTX probably will not be charged for very likely committing crimes. And I say they likely committed crimes because FTX executive Nishad Singh already pled guilty this spring to participating in a straw donor scheme. So he is. Yeah, and he. He pled guilty before they dropped this charge, which he's got to feel like an asshole for doing, because now he is going to get punished for that, even though SBF is no longer being charged for it.

[Jamie Loftus]

Wow, that's. I mean, look, sometimes you do the ethical altruistic thing and it comes back to bite you in the ass. What are you gonna do?

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, what are you gonna do? Hey, everyone. Just wanted to note that since we recorded this, the prosecution has noted that they will be seeking to add those charges back on that were dropped. So it's possible that both Sam and other members of his inner circle will be charged with all that stuff. We just really kind of don't know at this point. But I do want to note that the prosecution is at least saying, hey, like, despite this little mess up, we are. We are not just giving up on, on this charge. So heads up about that could change in the future. Well, Jamie.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

How you doing?

[Jamie Loftus]

I. Really. Well, I. I have a question for you.

[Robert Evans]

I have an answer for you.

[Jamie Loftus]

Well, I sure fucking hope so. No, my, my question is that I. I'm. I'm curious. What do you see happening here? What feels plausible to you at this time?

[Robert Evans]

You know, I. I've been seeing a Lot of people be like, oh, he's going to get off. He's going to get all, he's got too many connections, too many, you know, people who he could roll on. I don't think he has many people he could really roll on. I don't think he was like, especially since these finance charges have been dropped. I don't know that I really think he's got the savvy to have, like, a guy like John McAfee. I, I, I, I believe John McAfee killed himself. I don't believe there's anything shady there. I know a lot about the guy. It makes sense to me that when his fucking running finally stopped, he, he would do that. But McAfee probably had, did have some dirt, dirt on some people. He was that kind of cunning, right? I'm not, I wouldn't be shocked if John McAfee had put together some dirt on some people, right? I don't think Sam Bankman Fried is that cunning. I don't think he was, like, smart enough to have dirt on anyone who could get him out of this situation. I think there's a pretty good chance he does hard time. I think he fucked with too many people. He fucked with the money, and he fucked with it in too dumb of a way. So I think he's screwed.

[Jamie Loftus]

Okay? That's, that was my instinct as well, because I feel like he doesn't even have, I mean, he doesn't have any sort of, of like, I think sometimes with, with these types, you get some sort of press narrative that it's like they're playing 4D chess. And like, even if that's not entirely true, there's like, a media narrative that sticks to them, that makes them seem more plausible. But I just feel like everything that's, like, all of his actions and all of the media surrounding him, except for a very, very small amount, seems to reinforce the fact that he's completely incompetent and malicious in, in every way. Way.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. Yeah, I, I would say that.

[Jamie Loftus]

Well, good. I, God, I mean, not that I, you know, I don't know. I mean, it seems like he's, I.

[Robert Evans]

Certainly hope he's, I hope he's, I hate him. I think he's a gross person. I hope Will McCaskill goes away or gets, like, eaten by, eaten by a large fish would be my pick. If I, if I got, Got it. If, like, God is like, what do you want me to do to Will McCaskill? I'm like, you, you remember that thing you did with a Whale back in the day. What if he didn't get out? What if a whale just eats him.

[Jamie Loftus]

You know, and then got to be like, oh, amazing. I'm. I love playing the hits.

[Robert Evans]

I love. Great pitch. You know what, Robert? I'm gonna give you that HBO series you've been asking for.

[Jamie Loftus]

Robert, you are an amazing collaborator.

[Robert Evans]

Oh, yeah. Me. Me and God, co creators of, of my hbo. HBO series. I am hoping if the strike goes on, they take my reality show pitch, Super Soaker Full of Piss, which I really think has some potential. Jamie. Yeah, the premise is.

[Jamie Loftus]

No, go ahead. Tell me the premise of Super Soaker Full of Piss, Robert. I'm ready.

[Robert Evans]

So I'm, I'm in a van. I filled a Super Soaker with my piss, and I drive around, like, Rodeo Drive, and I, I get out when I see someone who looks famous, and I squirt him with a Super Soaker full of piss. And then we film it and then I leave very quickly.

[Jamie Loftus]

Okay. I mean, I'm on with that.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, I think it's a great. I think it's, you know, I will. We'll get, you know, I don't know.

[Jamie Loftus]

I would be kind of pro, like, if you could get. I think the sound, the soundtrack is going to be really key there. Like, I think if you could get some, like, Jock Jam situation, like, going all live.

[Robert Evans]

All live editions of Blink182. Two songs.

[Jamie Loftus]

Wow.

[Robert Evans]

Because, you know, because they had. They are one of the worst live bands that ever played. So it's really just upsetting to the, to the viewer. That's the goal here.

[Jamie Loftus]

And, you know, given who Blink182, like, rolls with these days, you may, in fact run into Travis on Rodeo Drive and.

[Robert Evans]

Oh, yeah. Full poet piss right in the face. Just a, Just a full load of it.

[Sophie]

You know, just to say I hate this idea because it means that some fucking being celebrity will murder you, and then I. And then you'll be gone, and then I'll be sad.

[Robert Evans]

I'm gonna be honest. I'm not great at recognizing celebrities, so I'm. Anytime I could just see someone in a suit and spray them with the piss.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, Jamie, I, I, I know we.

[Robert Evans]

Can sell this show.

[Jamie Loftus]

My other bestie.

[Robert Evans]

No, we just roll down the street. It's Nick Jonas Roberts. Spray, spray, spray. Get the fuck out of here.

[Jamie Loftus]

Wow. Wait.

[Robert Evans]

No, no, no. That's a good one, Robert. That's right. Right. That's right. That's right. I'm gonna rely on Jamie to recognize him, though.

[Sophie]

Oh, my God. I Did see that, Jamie.

[Jamie Loftus]

So, yeah. All right, well, the Jonas Brothers have their own vanity popcorn brand now, isn't that something? These are the amazing things I can teach you, Robert.

[Robert Evans]

And you've already taught me so much about hot dog through your bestselling book, Raw Dog.

[Jamie Loftus]

Wow. Perfect transition.

[Robert Evans]

That's a pivot. You're welcome.

[Sophie]

What a spicy plug, though.

[Jamie Loftus]

Gorgeous.

[Sophie]

Nice job.

[Jamie Loftus]

Gorgeous plug. Hey, never too late to start reading about hot dogs. It's never too late to start learning.

[Robert Evans]

Reading about hot dogs and also America. Fascinating story, Raw dog. Find it wherever books are found. Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

Well, thank you so much. I truly. I mean, as you know, I did a bastard's episode about hot dogs as I was writing that book.

[Robert Evans]

You did?

[Jamie Loftus]

So that I would remain focused.

[Robert Evans]

That's right. And the best way.

[Jamie Loftus]

And I have heard that the. The subject of that episode, George Shea, that the hot dog eating community is actively protecting him from its existence. He does not know it exists. He does not know the book.

[Robert Evans]

I love it. Love to hear it.

[Jamie Loftus]

Everyone in his life is really actively try. Like every hot dog eater or. Or many hot dog eaters I talked to were like, yeah, no, we know about the Bastards episode and we know about the book, but we really don't want George to know about it. I was like, okay.

[Robert Evans]

I was love it.

[Jamie Loftus]

Fair enough.

[Robert Evans]

Beautiful. Incredible. Jamie, that made me feel great. You can sign up for this show and all other Cool Zone shows ad free at Cooler Zone Media. That's for Apple subscribers. We are working on the Android option. You can find my novel after the Revolution by typing after the Revolution into whatever book buying site you use. Or just walk into a bookstore and demand it from the manager at Swordpoint. Anyway, goodbye. Goodbye.

[Jamie Loftus]

Goodbye.

[Sophie]

Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, Visit our website coolzone media.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts.

[Robert Evans]

Or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sophie]

Behind the Bastards is Now available on YouTube. New episodes every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to our channel, YouTube. BehindtheBastards.

[Ad Read - NordicTrack]

The only thing between you and your best self is the start button. This Black Friday. Explore the world with NordicTrack. From the peaks of Peru to the streets of Paris, every workout moves you somewhere new. With iFit trainers leading the way. The equipment's amazing, smooth, quiet, and those screens make it all feel real. Ready to start your next workout adventure with the number one treadmill brand in the US shop, NordicTrack.com for Black Friday savings? NordicTrack. Train anywhere. Explore everywhere.

[Ad Read - Vizio TV]

Ready to Go big. Vizio's supersized 100 inch QLED TV is now available at Walmart for only 1698. Immerse yourself in breathtaking color and contrast with cutting edge QLED on a screen so large it transforms any room into your personal theater. And with Watch Free plus built in, you'll enjoy free live and on demand TV right out of the box. You can even stream your favorite music and podcasts with the iHeartRadio app. Head to Walmart.com and bring home the Vizio 100 inch QLED TV today for only $16.98.

[Robert Evans]

If you're looking for a gift that inspires confidence and adventure all year long, give them a Guardian bike. The number one kids bike.

[Jamie Loftus]

Easiest to learn on, safest to ride with, USA made kids specific frames and patented safety technology.

[Robert Evans]

Kids are learning to ride in just one day. No training wheels needed.

[Jamie Loftus]

Guardian is America's favorite kids bike and the New York Times and Wirecutter's top.

[Robert Evans]

Pick three years in a row. This holiday season, Guardian is offering up to 40% in savings on all bikes plus 100 in free accessories. Shop now at guardianbikes.com Scent the season.

[Ad Read - Famous Footwear]

With Pura take up to 30% off site wide during Pura's Black Friday Friday.

[Robert Evans]

Sale, the biggest sale of the year. For a limited time only, shop premium long lasting single fragrances, curated gift sets.

[Ad Read - Famous Footwear]

For everyone on your list, and sleek.

[Ad Read - Vizio TV]

Modern diffusers for home and car, all at exclusive discounts.

[Ad Read - Famous Footwear]

Head to pura.com to unwrap the savings.

[Ad Read - Vizio TV]

And upgrade your space just in time for the holidays.

[Jamie Loftus]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Ad Read - Vizio TV]

Guaranteed Human.