Podcast Summary: Behind the Bastards – How The Zizians Went Full On Death Cult & The Zizian Murder Spree (or Exactly How Harry Potter Fanfic Killed A Border Patrol Agent)

Podcast: Behind the Bastards
Host: Robert Evans (with producer Sophie Lichterman and guest David Borie)
Episode: CZM Rewind: How The Zizians Went Full On Death Cult & The Zizian Murder Spree
Date: January 1, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode explores the strange, tragic, and violent evolution of a fringe group spun out of the "rationalist" subculture—colloquially known as the Zizians. Host Robert Evans and guest David Borie walk listeners through the group’s bizarre ideology (with roots in Harry Potter fanfiction and "rationalist" philosophy), its descent into cult behavior, and the resulting real-world murder spree implicating several members. The central thread is how dangerously internet-poisoned ideology, the rationalist community’s cultural blind spots, and the shocking inability for outside intervention to defuse the situation led to deaths—including that of a Border Patrol agent.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Rationalism, Cult Dynamics, and Harry Potter Fanfiction

The Rationalist Community’s Flaws

• The episode begins with Evans admitting the research challenge: this is a group so fringe, so blog-driven, that sources are unedited, sprawling, and often contradictory—but all point to the same sick dynamic. (03:17)
• Rationalism and effective altruism attract extremely accomplished people but act as "a cult factory," regularly spinning off smaller, more extremist, or delusional subgroups. (36:41)
• "It's always a mistake to think of intelligence as an absolute characteristic." – Evans (14:12)
• Many women entering the rationalist orbit, inspired especially by Yudkowsky's "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality," face both misogyny and predatory behavior, which compounds existing issues. (38:23)

Harry Potter Fanfic as Origin Story

• The importance and bizarre centrality of Harry Potter fanfic in this community: "I cannot overemphasize how important this Harry Potter fan fiction is to all these murders." – Evans (38:31)
• The group’s leader (Ziz) and many others cite Yudkowsky’s fanfic as a primary philosophical text, influencing their ethics, mental frameworks, and obsession with moral calculus.

2. Ziz’s Background, Transition, and Descent

Personal Crises and Community Rejection

• Ziz, struggling financially and emotionally post-move to the Bay Area, bounces from abusive housing to rationalist group houses, is rejected because of being a trans woman, and finds only unhealthy community in the fringe of rationalist subculture. (11:22)
• Ziz transitions during this period and starts a blog, Sincere Ously, initially modeled after Yudkowsky’s approach. The blog reveals growing obsession with "enforcement mechanisms"—both for self-improvement and controlling others. (14:47)

Enforcement Mechanisms

• Ziz is especially interested in tools like Beeminder, apps or systems where failing to meet a goal incurs consequences—she extends this logic to blackmail and, eventually, lethal enforcement in the group. (16:00)

Mania and Grandiosity

• Both Ziz and close collaborator Gwyn view themselves as world-savers, often riffing on science fiction or Greek philosophy terms (akrasia/the struggle against willpower), but then twist these into increasingly violent, authoritarian frameworks: "The stakes are immediately we have to save the world from the evil AI that will create hell to punish everybody who doesn't build it." – Evans (16:55)

3. Deepening Cult Mentality

Living on Boats

• Unable to afford Bay Area rent, Ziz and Gwyn relocate to a sailboat, soon expanding to a “fleet” of decrepit boats. The isolation and physical deprivation worsen mental states and foster intensely codependent, cult-like dynamics. (19:13–36:52)
• "It’s just like, you have isolated each other away... and you're spending time brainwashing each other together in your little boat." – Evans (31:25)

Emergence of Doctrine

• Gwyn introduces and Ziz popularizes "unihemispheric sleep" (keeping half your brain awake and half asleep to supposedly unlock and separate personalities—an idea seemingly derived from Warhammer fiction, not neuroscience) as a method to "jailbreak" followers into sociopathy—deconstructing their morality for the sake of the cause.
• "We've been somewhat isolated from the rationalist community for a while and... developed a significant chunk of unique art of rationing and theories of psychology..." – Ziz, via email (52:01)
• Ziz frames herself as "double good" (both brain hemispheres are pure), while others are "single good" (one side is evil)—and thus need her corrective (potentially lethal) guidance. (55:26)

4. Expanding the Group and Early Deaths

The Rationalist Fleet Becomes a Cult

• The fleet attracts a few more isolated, unstable, or highly suggestible rationalists. Sleep deprivation, peer "debugging," and cultic "mana" theory (persuasion power = inherent magical power) reinforce leader worship and a siege mentality. (60:55)
• The first suicide linked to the group comes via Maya Pasek (Squirrel in Hell), which Ziz chillingly terms "Pasek's Doom": "She comes up with a name for this. She calls this Pasek's Doom. That's what she names the infohazard that kills her friend who she's like fucking with their head." – Evans (71:24)

5. Escalation to Violence

Incidents, Arrests, Radicalization

• Ziz and followers attempt a dramatic protest at a rationalist event, blocking the venue in masks and robes. False reports of a weapon lead to a SWAT takedown, traumatizing the group—and strengthening their paranoia and conviction that only violence can end their oppression. (90:37)
• Shifting to land (after their boats are impounded), the group squats on the property of a kindly but exasperated landlord, Curtis Lind. Rent disputes escalate as the Zizians refuse to pay, threatening violence and fortifying their compound. (98:02–110:13)

Doctrine Hardened: Killing as Praxis

• Ziz and inner circle begin explicitly discussing the need to murder "evil" parties to protect the group's cause and ideology, and justify such acts with blogged, heavily rationalist logic. "If you truly irreconcilably disagree with someone's creative choice... ultimately your only recourse is to kill them." – Ziz ally, cited in Wired (Spring 2021, ~110:32)
• The group experiences more suicides among members (e.g., Fluttershy); all are written about by Ziz as part of her martyr/hero narrative. (113:44)

6. The Murder Spree and Aftermath

Lind, Borhanian, and The Self-Fulfilling Prophecy

• Convinced that landlord Lind, and later other perceived enemies, are about to attack, the group ambushes Lind with knives and a samurai sword. Lind, despite being stabbed 50 times and impaled with the sword, shoots and kills Emma Borhanian in self-defense; others are wounded, and charges spin out from the attack. (122:01)
• Analysis of court records and evidence strongly suggests Ziz orchestrated the plot, encouraging followers to act as her hands. (127:55)
  • "On her blog when discussing theoretical acts of deadly violence, Ziz referred to what she called Quirrell's algorithm from the Harry Potter rationalist fanfic..."
• The group goes on the run; Ziz and one other member fake their deaths. (120:01)

More Deaths: Zazko's Parents, Vermont, and the Border

• Jamie Zazko (an offline contact) and Daniel Blank are suspected in the murder of Jamie's wealthy parents in Pennsylvania, likely to fund the cult’s operations, though no charges have yet been filed. (134:41)
• The group begins seeking a rural Vermont compound, acquiring firearms and cash (via inheritance or the murder). (141:50)
• Ophelia Bockholt, a highly qualified quant trader, abandons her career to join the fugitives as the sect searches for new safe haven. (141:50)
• Surveillance by Homeland Security and Border Patrol in Vermont culminates in a deadly shootout: Ziz disciple Teresa Youngblood and Bockholt are killed; Youngblood shoots a Border Patrol agent. (149:44–152:11)

Final Capture and Unresolved Questions

• After further clandestine movement, Ziz, Zazko, and Blank are finally arrested living in a box truck in Maryland. They’re found with weapons, ammunition, and all in "Sith"-like black garb. (152:58)
• Charges are pending or unclear in many of the deaths, including those of Zazko’s parents. The saga concludes with the cult’s ideology and logic so convoluted that even law enforcement and courts struggle to unravel the full scope of crime and responsibility.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Rationalist Community & Cult Dynamics

• "A cult factory for sure." – David Borie (36:41)
• "It's always a mistake to think of intelligence as an absolute characteristic. I am a genius software engineer, therefore I am smart. It's like no, no, no, you're dumb at plenty of things." – Robert Evans (14:12)
• "This is just like Scientology in the form of a codependent friend group." – Evans (107:46)

Descent Into Paranoia and Violence

• "You can really manipulate people into doing all kinds of crazy stuff if you can convince them this is how you can prevent the end of the world. Once you get into that frame, it really distorts your ability to care about anything else." – Quoted rationalist, Business Insider (35:15)
• "I get so many people lining up to commit suicide by zyzz" – Ziz, quoted from her blog (130:21)
• "On her blog, Ziz refers to what she calls Quirrell's algorithm from the Harry Potter rationalist fanfic... Intent to kill. Think purely of killing. Grasp at any means to do so. Censors off. Do not flinch. Kill again." – Evans quoting fanfic, (130:29)

Institutional Dysfunction & Aftermath

• "It is a crime [to fake your own death], but California shows no interest in sending police out to get her." – Evans (142:46)
• "After all their talk of murder, in practice, they're not very good at it, huh?" – Borie (152:11)
• "For all their talk of murder, the. In practice, they're not very good at it, huh?" – Borie, upon learning of the violent but ultimately failed nature of the shootout and attempted assassination (152:11)

On Healing and Escaping Internet Doom

• "If you want to immunize yourself to this, a great way is to just like, have friends who don't live in a boat with you." – Evans (78:06)
• "[I] need to go talk to my neighbor... pet a goat... Everybody, just—don't do any of this." – Robert Evans (154:55)

Key Timestamps

• 03:17 — Host confesses to the difficulty and importance of researching such a blog-based, cultic case
• 06:08 — Prelude: How Harry Potter fanfiction is at the root of rationalism's spread (and this chain of violence)
• 09:14 — Ziz moves to the Bay Area, struggles with housing, and finds only alienation in the rationalist subculture
• 16:34 — Obsession with “enforcement mechanisms” and the philosophy of self-blackmail
• 19:13 — Ziz and Gwyn take to boat living ("the only way I could afford to live in the bay")
• 36:41 — Rationalism as "a cult factory for sure"
• 55:26 — Group dynamic: "double good," "single good," and Ziz's "hero contract" logic
• 71:24 — "Pasek's Doom": the first suicide attributed to Zizian ideology
• 90:37 — Zizians' dramatic protest at a rationalist gathering leads to violent police intervention
• 110:32 — Ziz's blog and the explicit advocacy for lethal violence to protect ideology
• 122:01–127:55 — The attack on landlord Curtis Lind and the resultant deaths
• 141:50 — Ophelia Bockholt, quant trader, drops everything to join the cult
• 149:44–152:11 — Escalating violence culminates in the killing of a Border Patrol agent in Vermont
• 152:58 — Final arrest: Ziz and co. found in box trucks, armed and dressed as "Sith"

Episode Tone & Takeaways

• Evans and Borie maintain dark humor and incredulity, often resorting to pop culture metaphors to convey the absurdity and horror.
• The core warning is against insularity, online doom loops, and groupthink: the Zizians’ story is an extreme version of what happens when smart, alienated people radicalize each other unchecked by outside perspectives.
• The episode ends with a plea to make real-world connections and touch grass (or goats) as the strongest inoculation against internet-driven cults.

Conclusion

This marathon episode detailed the bizarre, tragic rise and violent collapse of the Zizians—a rationalist offshoot whose mixture of sci-fi fanfic logic, sleep deprivation, and unhealed trauma built a "death cult" that left a trail of suicide, murder, and shattered lives. With roots in internet culture but real world bloodshed, it serves as a cautionary tale of unchecked online ideology, the dark side of "rationalist" thinking, and what happens when no one breaks the insular feedback loop. Despite the wildness, the hosts refocus the lesson: talk to people outside your bubble, touch grass, make friends—don’t end up on a boat with internet-poisoned cultists.

For future reference: skip the boats, read less fanfic, pet a goat, and for god’s sake, don’t start a “vegan Sith” cult.