CZM Rewind: Part One: Dr. Oz: Why 'America's Doctor' Is A Bastard

Summary

Behind the Bastards: CZM Rewind Part One - Dr. Oz: Why 'America's Doctor' Is A Bastard

Release Date: November 26, 2024
Host: Robert Evans (Cool Zone Media)
Guest: Matt Lieb
Co-Host: Chris Patterson Rosso

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Introduction

In the premiere episode of CZM Rewind, hosts Robert Evans and Matt Lieb, joined by Chris Patterson Rosso, delve into the complex and controversial figure of Dr. Mehmet Oz. Titled "Dr. Oz: Why 'America's Doctor' Is A Bastard," the episode explores Oz’s rise from an exceptional heart surgeon to a media personality promoting questionable medical practices.

---

Dr. Oz’s Early Life and Education

The discussion begins with Dr. Mehmet Oz’s background, highlighting his humble beginnings and relentless pursuit of success.

• [08:18] Matt Lieb: "Mustafa was an observant, traditional Muslim. Suna's family was more moderate and secular. Mehmet and his two sisters grew up split between both approaches to religion."

Dr. Oz was born on June 11, 1960, in the year of the Rat, reflecting his inherent ambition.

• [11:24] Robert Evans: "It's ambition without an analysis, I think is what you'd call it."

His father’s determination and his mother's more affluent background influenced Oz’s bilingual upbringing and drive for excellence.

• [15:30] Matt Lieb: "The Fancy Boy Prep school worked well enough that Mehmet was accepted to Harvard, where he played football and water polo. His grades were, as always, exceptional."

---

Career as a Surgeon

Dr. Oz’s medical prowess is extensively covered, showcasing his achievements and the high expectations placed upon him.

• [20:46] Robert Evans: "He starts working as a heart surgeon."

By his mid-30s, Oz had already earned numerous accolades, patents, and a reputation as one of the top cardiothoracic surgeons in the United States.

• [22:16] Matt Lieb: "In 1995, a New York Times profile referred to Dr. Oz as, quote, probably the most accomplished 35-year-old cardiothoracic surgeon in the country."

His exceptional skills and dedication led him to perform approximately 250 heart surgeries annually, earning him respect within the medical community.

• [21:00] Matt Lieb: "He authors hundreds of peer-reviewed articles and he's awarded 11 patents."

---

Embrace of Alternative Medicine

Oz's introduction to alternative medicine marks a critical turning point in his career, blending traditional medicine with unconventional practices.

• [27:40] Robert Evans: "We're back. We're talking about Dr. Oz, who in the mid-90s has started some weird alternative medicine stuff."

His wife, Lisa Lamolle, introduced him to homeopathy and Eastern mysticism, expanding his medical perspective.

• [19:40] Matt Lieb: "His mother-in-law had developed a special low-fat diet for her husband's cardiac patients... She taught her son-in-law, Dr. Oz, about using arnica for sore muscles and herbal tea for stomach aches."

Oz's involvement with alternative medicine at Columbia Medical School sparked both interest and controversy.

• [33:58] Matt Lieb: "So this is how Mehmet gets introduced to the wide world of quack cures. And it makes sense. He enters it through largely reasonable ways, alternative treatments that have some positive impact on people."

---

Transition to Media Personality

Leveraging his medical credentials and growing interest in alternative practices, Oz seamlessly transitioned into a media figure.

• [48:26] Robert Evans: "He eventually succeeds in 2004 in getting invited to Oprah Winfrey's show."

Oprah’s platform amplified Oz’s reach, positioning him as "America’s Doctor" and facilitating his move into television with his own show.

• [53:04] Matt Lieb: "And by 2009, it was clear that Dr. Oz had more than enough star power to justify a shot at his own show."

Oz’s ability to discuss intimate and sometimes controversial health topics, such as digestive health, endeared him to a broad audience.

• [49:30] Matt Lieb: "He most famously explained that healthy poops tended to be shaped like an S and should hit the water like an Olympic diver with very little splash."

---

Criticisms of Dr. Oz

Despite his achievements, Oz faced substantial criticism for promoting pseudoscientific remedies and blurring the lines between legitimate medicine and alternative practices.

• [06:41] Robert Evans: "He uses these exceptional qualifications along with his charisma, his handsome face, to sell millions of people on nonsense cures every single year."

The hosts debate the ethical implications of Oz’s methods, questioning whether his intentions overshadow the potential harm caused by unverified treatments.

• [22:43] Robert Evans: "The patient was obviously not awake, but probably had some awareness... They were using their hands as kings once did, to treat subjects with scrofula."

They highlight instances where Oz incorporated unproven practices in medical settings, raising concerns about the legitimacy and safety of such approaches.

• [39:26] Robert Evans: "This woman seemed like she is just describing her own feelings and then just ascribing them to an open heart surgery."

Furthermore, the episode touches upon the broader implications of legitimizing alternative medicine within reputable institutions, potentially misleading the public.

• [42:20] Matt Lieb: "The NCCAM's approach encourages a self-perpetuating cycle of misinterpreting research and conducting flawed research, which inevitably generates some studies that erroneously claim positive effects."

---

Conclusion

The episode concludes by framing Dr. Oz as a quintessential "bastard" figure—someone who combines exceptional skill with questionable ethics to influence public health discourse. While acknowledging Oz’s medical accomplishments, the hosts criticize his drift towards sensationalism and pseudoscience, underscoring the dangers of prioritizing media fame over scientific integrity.

• [53:24] Robert Evans: "The quality of job he's done... He might have decreased the health of average Americans."

• [59:14] Matt Lieb: "But he's making millions of dollars."

The discussion suggests that Oz’s legacy is a cautionary tale about the perils of allowing charisma and media presence to overshadow professional responsibility in the medical field.

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Notable Quotes

• [11:24] Robert Evans: "It's ambition without an analysis, I think is what you'd call it."
• [22:16] Matt Lieb: "Probably the most accomplished 35-year-old cardiothoracic surgeon in the country."
• [39:26] Robert Evans: "This woman seemed like she is just describing her own feelings and then just ascribing them to an open heart surgery."
• [53:24] Robert Evans: "The quality of job he's done... He might have decreased the health of average Americans."

---

Final Thoughts

"Behind the Bastards: Dr. Oz" offers a critical examination of Mehmet Oz’s transformation from a celebrated surgeon to a controversial media personality. The episode underscores the importance of maintaining ethical standards and scientific rigor, cautioning against the allure of fame that can compromise professional integrity.

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Note: This summary omits promotional segments, advertisements, and non-content sections to focus solely on the substantive discussions regarding Dr. Oz.

Transcript

[Gabe Gonzalez]

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[Sloan Glass]

Hi listeners. I'm Sloan Glass, the host of American Homicide, a podcast where we take you across the country to investigate some of America's deadliest crimes. We'll explore how these murders are shaped by their unique landscapes and in turn, how these tragedies have shaped the fabric of these American communities forever. And you can get access to all episodes of American Homicide 100% ad free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. So don't wait. Head to Apple podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime plus and subscribe today.

[Robert Evans]

What's lighting my dumpster fire? I'm Robert Evans, host, behind the Bastards.

[Matt Lieb]

That little introduction was in honor of my hometown, Portland, which just had a.

[Robert Evans]

Police officer murder a man who was having a mental health crisis.

[Matt Lieb]

And we'll probably be lighting some dumpsters.

[Robert Evans]

On fire tonight, although you won't hear it the day that this happens.

[Matt Lieb]

But anyway, that's all beside the point.

[Robert Evans]

Right now because the point right now is that I'm introducing our guest today.

[Matt Lieb]

The inimitable Matt Lieb.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Hey, what's going on, Matt?

[Matt Lieb]

How you doing?

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

I'm doing well. I'm excited to be here. Big fan of the pod. Love me some bastards.

[Matt Lieb]

And you are? You do a Sopranos podcast.

[Robert Evans]

And the name is, I believe, pod yourself a gun.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

That's right. Pod yourself a gun. Yep. We're the world's only Sopranos podcast. Don't go any other ones because they do not exist.

[Robert Evans]

Little known TV show, the Sopranos, you might have heard of it, Very obscure, a niche.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

A niche TV show that only people who really like art understand. And that's why we talk about it. We talk about the art.

[Matt Lieb]

It's fun thinking about that because I believe the song that introduced that show.

[Robert Evans]

Was something about waking up in the.

[Matt Lieb]

Morning and getting yourself a gun, which.

[Robert Evans]

Is what I did this morning.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

You bought a gun.

[Robert Evans]

I did. I did. I did buy a Gun this morning. Not for Sopranos like, uses. Although I am Italian, so you can't.

[Matt Lieb]

Really know for sure. You can't really know for sure.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah. You woke up with a blue moon in your eye and you decided, I'm gonna go get myself a gun, and.

[Matt Lieb]

Then I'm gonna commit crimes in the Pine Barrens of New Jersey.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, they do that a lot in the show, right?

[Matt Lieb]

A lot of Pine Barren crimes.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

They do it at least once, and it's great.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, they're chasing that guy through the.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah, yeah, the Russian.

[Unknown]

Yeah. And they leave their DNA everywhere.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Well, they pee everywhere.

[Robert Evans]

And they all said, look, we Italians are not a subtle people.

[Matt Lieb]

No.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

They spend that whole episode literally, like, dying of, like, cold and they're lost in the woods, but they spend all the time talking about how they're starving because they haven't eaten in 12 hours. It's the most Italian thing in the world. But I want to hear about this gun.

[Robert Evans]

Oh, it's just a gun. But today we have something much more.

[Matt Lieb]

Exciting than a gun. We have a bastard and our bastard.

[Robert Evans]

Are you ready for this?

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

I'm so excited.

[Robert Evans]

Are you settling in?

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yes.

[Robert Evans]

Dr. Mehmet Oz.

[Matt Lieb]

I never introduced them like that.

[Robert Evans]

We're talking about Dr. Fucking Oz today. Yes, that's right.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Who'd have thought he'd be a bastard? A TV doctor?

[Robert Evans]

Who would have thought a TV doctor.

[Matt Lieb]

Could be a bad man?

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

No, they take an oath. TV doctors, they say do no harm and get good ratings. That's the. The Hippocratic oath.

[Unknown]

Do they. Do they also oath to be bad guest hosts on Jeopardy because he sucked and I didn't enjoy it.

[Matt Lieb]

Honestly, if you are going up against LeVar Burton for any job, your first.

[Robert Evans]

Action should be like, you know what? I'm bowing out.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah, Straight up, immediately.

[Robert Evans]

I'm not going to compete with LeVar Burton.

[Unknown]

Respectfully, fuck off, sir.

[Robert Evans]

Fighting Geordi. Fighting Kunta Kinte. Fighting Whatever the Reading Rainbow guy's name was. No, I think it was Slavar Lavar. Yeah.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah. No, I did not watch him on Jeopardy, but I have seen the show and had no idea he was a bastard.

[Robert Evans]

Yes, he's a piece of shit. He's a different piece of shit. We're also going to be talking in.

[Matt Lieb]

The very near future about Dr. Phil, who's a much worse person.

[Unknown]

Fuck Dr. Phil.

[Robert Evans]

Dr. Oz is bad for some reasons that you'll suspect, the pseudoscience stuff. But also for some, I think, more.

[Matt Lieb]

Complicated reasons, which we'll have us a.

[Robert Evans]

Nice talk about at the End of this episode. So I've always said that one of.

[Matt Lieb]

The great tragedies of American public life is that our very best doctors are.

[Robert Evans]

Usually like, kind of schlubby dudes and ladies who maybe aren't the best at.

[Matt Lieb]

Social graces and certainly don't have enough time because they're wildly overworked to do TV appearances.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. They're not hot. I've always said doctor is the problem. They're not hot. I look at them, I'm like, ew.

[Matt Lieb]

Like, we need to put a couple of billion dollars into a national program for more fuckable doctors. Come on.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yes, yes. Doctors who fuck. That's the next level of health care in America. It won't be universal health care, but at least doctors will look fuckable now.

[Robert Evans]

I mean, I think the problem is.

[Matt Lieb]

Not their fuckability because it's inherently hot.

[Robert Evans]

To be a doctor. It's more the fact that they're not necessarily. Even the ones who are.

[Matt Lieb]

Have a good bedside manner, are good.

[Robert Evans]

At explaining things, just don't have the time to spend a lot of it.

[Matt Lieb]

On television because they're busy saving lives. This has led to a thriving industry, well documented in the show of grifter health influencers and scam artists selling people poison with honeyed words and practice smiles. Today, though, we're talking about a different kind of medical grifter, kind of a grifter who helps to launder those more shady grifters, the guy. People who aren't doctors, people who have no medical training who are just trying to sell you nonsense cures. The guy we're talking about today exists to give them credibility and launder them into the public consciousness. And his name is Mehmet Oz. Mehmet Oz is maybe the most influential public physician in the country, possibly the world. He is, in every professional sense of the word, an excellent doctor. Exceptional even within the bounds of what it is he is trained to do. He may be one of the best in the world at what he does. And he uses his.

[Robert Evans]

You know, the thing that makes him.

[Matt Lieb]

A bastard is that he uses these exceptional qualifications along with his charisma, his.

[Robert Evans]

Handsome face, to sell millions of people.

[Matt Lieb]

On nonsense cures every single year.

[Robert Evans]

And that's. That's a bad thing to do. He's kind of made worse, we'll talk about this a lot by the fact that he is. He's a.

[Matt Lieb]

He's a. He's a heart surgeon, and he's an exceptional heart surgeon.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

That's so sad. It's always Sad when, like, an amazing doctor is a piece of shit. This is like how I felt when Ben Con. Ben Carson turned out to be a Trump guy. I was like, but you're so good.

[Robert Evans]

The brain surgeons. Surgeons. Surgeons, which you talk to doctors, they'll be like, yeah, of course.

[Matt Lieb]

It's always surgeons. Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

They're the ones who think they're gods. Right. They essentially have a God complex and they'll be really good at one thing. And then they'll also think that they're good at, like, politics and shit like that.

[Robert Evans]

I think good surgeons are so prone to being also like, nonsense. Like so many of our nonsense public.

[Matt Lieb]

Doctors are surgeons for the same reason that so many of our terrorists are engineers. They're people who get really good at.

[Robert Evans]

A specific thing and it lets them.

[Matt Lieb]

Convince themselves that they know what they're.

[Robert Evans]

Talking about in a wider variety of things than they really do.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

That's great. It just makes me glad that I never, you know, got really proficient in.

[Matt Lieb]

Any one skill, never gain skills.

[Robert Evans]

I never ever learned how to do things.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

You'll become too smart for yourself and think that you are God.

[Matt Lieb]

If no one learned to do anything, we would still be living in the mud and eating grubs and you know.

[Robert Evans]

What we wouldn't have?

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Snake oil salesman. Oh, yeah.

[Robert Evans]

Or that we would have very little at all.

[Matt Lieb]

Mimit Sengiz Oz was born on June 11, 1960, to parents Suna and Mustafa Oz, who must have fucked at some point in October of 1959.

[Robert Evans]

In order to conceive him, we have to assume his parents fucked in October.

[Unknown]

You don't know that.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah, he could be immaculate conception, you.

[Robert Evans]

Know, Robert Possible, I would say right.

[Matt Lieb]

Now the most likely theory is that.

[Robert Evans]

They fucked sometime in October.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

All right.

[Matt Lieb]

His father, Mustafa, had been born in Bozkir, a village in southern Turkey. He had grown up poor in the countryside during the Great Depression and obviously.

[Robert Evans]

You know, Great Depression, bad time everywhere, real bad time.

[Matt Lieb]

If you're like in rural Turkey, you.

[Robert Evans]

Know, you're dealing with a different kind of poverty than even like our grandparents dealt with here.

[Matt Lieb]

So he had to work himself to the bone in order to make something of himself, in order to get into medical school and distinguish himself enough that he was able to earn scholarships, which allowed him to immigrate to the United States as a medical resident in 1955.

[Robert Evans]

So this is a hard working man and a man who has to struggle, I'm going to guess, in ways that are kind of difficult to imagine for most of us. Even as difficult as Our present times are.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

He's like a true lift yourself up by your bootstraps kind of guy.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. Came from the middle of like, nowhere.

[Matt Lieb]

Rural Turkey and worked himself into becoming.

[Robert Evans]

A good enough doctor that he got it. You know, he was able to get over the racism of the fucking 1950s immigration system.

[Matt Lieb]

That's. That's an achievement.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah, no, good for him. Started from the bottom and now he's on TV selling fake cures.

[Robert Evans]

That's his dad.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Oh, that's his dad.

[Robert Evans]

That's not Mehmet.

[Matt Lieb]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Robert Evans]

That's Mustafa.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

So we're talking about his dad and.

[Matt Lieb]

His mom right now.

[Robert Evans]

His mom, Suna, came from a much wealthier background.

[Matt Lieb]

I don't know if this is what.

[Robert Evans]

Helped his dad get into the country or not.

[Matt Lieb]

It may have been.

[Robert Evans]

Her father was a successful pharmacist, and.

[Matt Lieb]

Both sides of her family came from Istanbul. She grew up with a lot of.

[Robert Evans]

Money, as befits his more modest upbringing.

[Matt Lieb]

Mustafa was an observant, traditional Muslim. Suna's family was more moderate and secular. Mehmet and his two sisters grew up split between both approaches to religion. The Oz kids spent their childhood speaking Turkish and English fluently at home. So they grew up in a bilingual house. Mehmet was, from a young age, ambitious, starving for success and his father's approval. He is wont to note that he was born in the year of the Rat, according to the Chinese zodiac. In one interview, he noted of this. You run the maze. If you put cheese in that maze, I swear to God I'll get to it and I'll get to it really fast. But should I be running after that cheese? Am I in the right maze? All of these questions, which people much greater than I am, think through, I put on the back burner as I'm running after that cheese.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

What the fuck? Like, that's way too much stock. Into the year of what animal?

[Matt Lieb]

The year.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

At least he wasn't born into the year of the pig. And he's like, well, what you got to do is you got to take your snout and put it into the trough of life and just.

[Robert Evans]

You really gotta just shove your face into food.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

As hard as you can.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

You roll around in the shit and then you hope that someday you find another piggy to fuck. And then you have little piglets. It's like, look, I was born in.

[Matt Lieb]

The year of the pig, and that's why I dispose of bodies for the mob.

[Robert Evans]

It's just what you do.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Well, that's. It's a Nice take on Year of the Rat.

[Matt Lieb]

For him, it is telling, because what.

[Robert Evans]

He'S saying there is, like, I don't think about why I'm doing what I'm doing. I just strive to achieve things, and I don't think about whether or not.

[Matt Lieb]

They'Re good or bad. I just. I have to achieve.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah, he just wants that cheese.

[Matt Lieb]

Yeah, he wants that cheese.

[Robert Evans]

It's ambition without an analysis, I think is what you'd call it. And he's pretty open about that.

[Matt Lieb]

Now, Mustafa, his dad repeatedly told the.

[Robert Evans]

Growing Dr. Oz, who's not yet a doctor, obviously, that when he'd grown up.

[Matt Lieb]

When Mustafa had grown up, he hadn't been able to relax for even a second on his road to escaping poverty and establishing himself as a cardiothoracic surgeon.

[Robert Evans]

So he's like, telling his kid as he grows up, like, you know, like.

[Matt Lieb]

If you want to succeed, you can't.

[Robert Evans]

Relax for even a second. You can't take a moment off.

[Matt Lieb]

You always gotta be hustling.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah.

[Matt Lieb]

And that's how Mehmet grows up. He's an excellent student, but no amount of success is ever enough for his.

[Robert Evans]

Dad, he later recalled.

[Matt Lieb]

I'd say I got a 93 on a test.

[Robert Evans]

He'd say, did anyone get better?

[Matt Lieb]

That was always the question he asked.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Cool dad.

[Unknown]

Sounds like a fun guy. Would hang.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. I mean, the school I grew up.

[Matt Lieb]

In, because of just where we were.

[Robert Evans]

In North Texas, like, about half of the kids in my school were either from India or from China or Japan. And so you had a lot of.

[Matt Lieb]

Kids who would talk that way about their parents.

[Robert Evans]

Right.

[Matt Lieb]

And some of them had. Especially around our senior year, there were a couple of kids who had to.

[Robert Evans]

Get, like, taken in by an ambulance.

[Matt Lieb]

Because they would just, like, one in one case, seizing as a result of stress.

[Robert Evans]

Like, Jesus, it's not good to put this kind of pressure on a kid.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah. Like, straight having, like, nervous breakdowns just from, like, trying to get good grades. Right. Once again, don't get good at anything. It's not worth it.

[Matt Lieb]

Don't develop skills.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Don't develop skills. You'll get seizures. You're at risk of seizures. You're at risk of your dad not loving you. You just gotta watch it.

[Robert Evans]

I'll love you no matter what.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah, exactly. Stop caring about your dad. You know, just coast, coast.

[Robert Evans]

Find some dirt, eat some grubs. You'll be fine.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah. Start a Sopranos podcast.

[Robert Evans]

Start a Sopranos podcast.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

That's all you've got to do, dude.

[Robert Evans]

Really?

[Unknown]

Bringing it back. There.

[Robert Evans]

So Mehmet decided to become a doctor when he was just seven years old.

[Matt Lieb]

He recalls standing in line at an ice cream parlor. Quote, I remember it like yesterday. There was a kid in front of me who was 10. My dad, just to pass the time.

[Robert Evans]

Said, what do you want to be when you grow up? The kid said, I don't know.

[Matt Lieb]

I'm 10. My father waited until he was out.

[Robert Evans]

Of earshot and said, I never want.

[Matt Lieb]

You to tell me that if I ask you that question. I never want you to tell me you don't know. It's okay if you change your mind, but I never want you to not have a vision of what you want to be.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Mehmet, go kill that kid.

[Robert Evans]

Kill that kid. Fucking cut him.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Murder that loser kid and tell me what you want to do with your life. God damn. That is way too much pressure. Way, way too much pressure.

[Matt Lieb]

Yeah. That's so much pressure to put on a kid.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

And it seems like kids like that always end up becoming the, like going into the career that their father wanted them to do, and then eventually their dad dies and then they're like, oh, fuck, I didn't get to do what I wanted to do with my life. And now I'm miserable.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Lieb]

It's. It's. It's a real bummer.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. It's not. Just don't put pressure on people. There's plenty of grubs.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah.

[Matt Lieb]

By the time Mehmet was ready to start school, his father was wealthy enough to pay to send his son to Tower Hill School, A K through 12th grade private college preparatory school in Wilmington, Delaware.

[Unknown]

Jesus, that sounds horrible.

[Robert Evans]

I know. It sounds like a fucking nightmare. The Fancy boy.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Sounds uniforms, ties.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. Probably like weird shorts during the summer. Yeah.

[Matt Lieb]

The Fancy Boy Prep school worked well enough that Mehmet was accepted to Harvard, where he played football and water polo. His grades were, as always, exceptional. One of his roommates later recalled, he was very competitive. There was never any question that he wasn't going to be a doctor. He wanted to be a fantastic surgeon.

[Robert Evans]

So people around him, like, everyone kind of recognizes this kid is brilliant.

[Matt Lieb]

Everyone recognizes he's got the drive, he's going to achieve. So good for him.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

I mean, it's just like, I just look back now at my own childhood and I'm like, God damn it, if I can think of one friend where I. Where I knew what they wanted to do for a career, I don't think we ever talked about, like, what's your career going to be? No one was like, I'm a doctor, you know, it was, it was mostly just like, you know, how's, how's your hip hop album working out? And they're like good and they're like cool. And that was the whole thing.

[Matt Lieb]

That's interesting.

[Robert Evans]

I think it was different for me because there was definitely a lot of pressure to have something.

[Matt Lieb]

You know, I went to a public.

[Robert Evans]

School, I didn't go to a private.

[Matt Lieb]

School, but I went to a public.

[Robert Evans]

School in my early schooling years, was.

[Matt Lieb]

In a dirt poor farming town called Idabel, Oklahoma. And the school was as good as it could be in a place like that. Like they paddled us and stuff.

[Robert Evans]

Like it was not, not a high end educational wait, but once I do.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

In a, in a public school.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Oh, damn.

[Matt Lieb]

They still did that in Oklahoma back in them days.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, you got to sign the paddle afterwards too.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Oh, that's nice.

[Robert Evans]

But when I was in, I don't know, third grade or so, I moved.

[Matt Lieb]

To Plano, which is a fairly wealthy suburb of Dallas. And the schools, the public schools are.

[Robert Evans]

Very good and there is a lot.

[Matt Lieb]

Of drive to achieve, like I said.

[Robert Evans]

A lot of like kids who were really motivated by their parents to achieve. And so you either were kind of planning to be a doctor or, you.

[Matt Lieb]

Know, something on that level or you were planning to join the military.

[Robert Evans]

Because it was Texas. I was in rotc. So me and all my friends, I.

[Matt Lieb]

Think we all kind of assumed we're.

[Robert Evans]

All going to join the army, you know.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah, yeah, I went to public school, you know, my entire life. And I think most of my friends either wanted to, they were either going to go into the army or they were, or they wanted to be famous musicians and, or athletes.

[Unknown]

So see, my brother is a doctor and knew he was going to be a doctor from the, he's my older brother too, from the time that he was like seven. So like, and I, and I'm like, la, la, la. No idea.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

I'm just saying like a level of ambition at a very, very young age has always been a turnoff for me when it comes to like friends because it just, they always have that like, sense where they're trying to get, you're some sort of stepping stone into their, whatever their career path is and I don't like it.

[Matt Lieb]

So Oz took only one break during his relentless progress through medical school and that break was to do a compulsory, I think it was a one year term of service in the Turkish army.

[Robert Evans]

In order to maintain his dual citizenship. Other than that, straight on to like becoming a Doctor. That's the only kind of breakage.

[Matt Lieb]

So I guess that's his gap year.

[Robert Evans]

Is being in the Turkish army.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

I'm just going to take a break, have a gap year and join the military of a foreign country.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Matt Lieb]

Help suppress, you know, Kurdish liberatory movements and stuff. Whatever.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah. They got to stop trying to have their own thing.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Matt Lieb]

He got a four year degree in biology and then transferred to the University of Pennsylvania where he doubled up working on both an MD and an mba. He succeeded in earning both. So that's interesting to me. He gets both.

[Robert Evans]

He gets.

[Matt Lieb]

At the same time as he's getting.

[Robert Evans]

His md, he also gets a business degree.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah, this is. It's very. There's a lot of foreshadowing going on.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, there's some foreshadowing.

[Matt Lieb]

He earned both, obviously with flying colors.

[Robert Evans]

He's an incredibly intelligent man.

[Matt Lieb]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

This isn't just a guy like.

[Matt Lieb]

We'll talk about Dr. Phil later. Dr. Phil I don't think is very smart. He's incredibly good at reading and manipulating people. He's not particularly a genius.

[Robert Evans]

Mehmet Oz is a genius.

[Matt Lieb]

Like, I think he almost certainly is an actual genius.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah.

[Matt Lieb]

In 1985, at age 25, he married Lisa Lamolle, who was the daughter of a cardiothoracic surgeon who worked with his father.

[Robert Evans]

They met at like a party or something.

[Matt Lieb]

This relationship gradually opened him up to alternative medicine and Eastern mysticism because Lisa's mom was hardcore into homeopathy, meditation and other New Age stuff.

[Robert Evans]

We'll talk about that more in a little bit.

[Matt Lieb]

For the next decade and change, Dr. Oz's career zoomed forward. He became triple board certified, which I don't know what that means, but it sounds impressive.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

It's at least three boards.

[Robert Evans]

It's at least three boards. That's three more than I've been certified.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah. I got zero boards under my belt.

[Matt Lieb]

Not a one.

[Sloan Glass]

Fuck.

[Matt Lieb]

Not a single board between the three of us.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

So we really should find a board just to get us some certifications, guys.

[Matt Lieb]

Just to get certified. If you're a board.

[Robert Evans]

If you're a medical board, hit us up. Well, actually, you know what?

[Matt Lieb]

The state of New Jersey has certified me as a reverend doctor, so I'm one board certified.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Oh, all right.

[Robert Evans]

You got a board out there?

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Is there a board in the Universal Life Church? Because I am a minister slash Jedi.

[Robert Evans]

Knight, I'm going to say that counts.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

All right, I'm board certified.

[Matt Lieb]

Can you get me painkillers?

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

I know a guy sounds legal enough.

[Robert Evans]

So he Starts working as a heart surgeon.

[Matt Lieb]

And he's very good at being a heart surgeon. And he's not just good at the heart surgery part, he's good at the science part. Over time, he authors hundreds of peer.

[Robert Evans]

Reviewed articles and he's awarded 11 patents.

[Matt Lieb]

One of them is for a solution to preserve transplanted organs. Another is for an aortic valve that can be implanted without open heart surgery.

[Robert Evans]

Like he's, he's not just really good.

[Matt Lieb]

At the mechanics of surgery, he's an excellent scientist.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, 11 patents is pretty good.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Seriously, one might say he's the wizard of Oz.

[Robert Evans]

I think I read like six articles.

[Matt Lieb]

With variations of that title on the guys.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

All right, well, I gotta go then. Bye guys.

[Robert Evans]

It's just a thing. Journalists can't help themselves.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Oh, you can't help yourself. If you're anybody, you see Oz and you're like, I gotta call him a wizard.

[Robert Evans]

Gotta call him a wizard.

[Matt Lieb]

Dr. Oz was hired by Columbia Medical School as a teacher. And as you know, he's also working. They've got a hospital, he's working there, but he's also teaching. He very quickly rises to the level of full professor and becomes the vice chair of the cardio of the heart surgery department, basically.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

How old is he at this point?

[Matt Lieb]

He's in his 30s.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Oh, man.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, like everything I've read right now.

[Matt Lieb]

On its own would be a career trajectory any doctor in medicine would envy. Like you could die happy with that being your fucking resume. Like, that's a hell of an achievement.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

My God. Yeah.

[Matt Lieb]

In 1995, a New York Times profile referred to Dr. Oz as, quote, probably the most accomplished 35 year old cardiothoracic surgeon in the country.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Jesus.

[Matt Lieb]

He might be the best at what.

[Robert Evans]

He does in the entire United States at this point. I mean, I don't know how to measure that, but he's, he's very good.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

I mean, I don't know any other heart surgeons by name, so. Fuck yeah. I mean, he's the guy.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. Now the article that I found that.

[Matt Lieb]

Quote in, however, gives some hints about.

[Robert Evans]

What was to come.

[Matt Lieb]

Because that article was about Dr. Oz's increasing experimentation with alternative medicine. It opens with the story of one of his patients, a 49 year old diabetic smoker who suffered a critical heart attack. She went under Mehmet's knife for a dangerous surgery. Quote, at the invitation of Oz and his patient. There were two other people on hand in surgical gowns and masks. A second year medical student named Sally Smith stationed at the patient's feet and a 52 year old healer named Julie Motts, who was standing at the patient's head. As volunteers in Oz's cardiac complementary care center, they worked for free through the operation, seldom moving except to reposition their hands. As Oz requested sutures and clamps in units of lidocaine, Motts called softly to Smith to move her hands from the small toe of the patient's right foot to a point on the sole known as the bubbling spring. What they were doing, no one else in the operating room knew how to do or had ever seen done during a coronary bypass or had ever thought worth doing.

[Robert Evans]

Even as an experiment in this ultimate.

[Matt Lieb]

Theater of scientific medicine, the women were using their hands as kings once did, to treat subjects with scrofula. And as Jesus is said to have done, and as shamans and mothers and Chinese qui gong practitioners still do, they were using their hands to run a kind of energy which science cannot prove exists into the patient's kidney meridian, which also may or may not exist.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

The kidney meridian.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, you got to get that meridian. That's the best part of the kidneys, the meridian.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

That's the most delicious part of the kidney, is the meridian.

[Robert Evans]

Man with fucking on a Ritz cracker, sliced thin. I love me some.

[Matt Lieb]

You just want to get.

[Robert Evans]

You want to get like some duck fat or some butter, you want to.

[Matt Lieb]

Get it sizzling in the pan and.

[Robert Evans]

You just slap that meridian on for.

[Matt Lieb]

Like a half a second and it's good to go. That's all you fucking with.

[Robert Evans]

Just a little bit of. Little bit of char, you know?

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

I mean, this all feels like he's going to start turning his patience into foie gras, and I'm very excited for what's to come. This heel turn that he's going to take.

[Robert Evans]

So, yeah, that's silly. I think that's silly. But at the other hand, it's in a hospital.

[Matt Lieb]

These people are clearly following sanitation guidelines. They're not getting paid, the patient's not getting charged extra.

[Robert Evans]

So I don't have a problem with that.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

And he's the smartest doctor in the world. It's like one of those things where you're like, I feel like this is wrong, but I don't know enough to dispute it. So I'm gonna let him fuck with my kidney meridian.

[Robert Evans]

I'm not willing to morally condemn him.

[Matt Lieb]

For that, even though I think it's silly.

[Robert Evans]

Just because, like, yeah, yeah, what's the fucking harm in seeing, you know?

[Matt Lieb]

And in that case, if you're actually.

[Robert Evans]

Doing it in a medical context. You're guaranteeing everybody's taking proper sanitation procedures, fucking whatever.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

And it seems like from what I can tell, that sounded non invasive. It sounded like, yeah, yeah, they were.

[Matt Lieb]

Just doing energy work or whatever.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah, they were throwing, you know, crystals and doing fucking pendulums over over him.

[Matt Lieb]

It falls into the category of it couldn't possibly hurt, so why not give it a shot? Right?

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah.

[Matt Lieb]

Which is.

[Robert Evans]

We'll talk about this more later. But that's kind of what they were going for. You know what else can't hurt? I don't the products and services that support this podcast, guaranteed to not harm you. In fact, every one of the products of ours that you buy extends your Life by exactly 45 minutes. So, you know, spend all your money and gain immortality.

[Gabe Gonzalez]

Are you curious about the world of queer sexuality? Cruising and expanding your horizons? Just hit play on the fiercely sex positive and deeply entertaining podcast Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Join hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson Rosso as they explore gay culture through candid conversations with special guests, intimate revelations from their own lives, and plenty of practical advice to navigate your journey. Their goal is that Sniffy's Cruising Confessions will help broaden minds, expand understanding, and entertain your pants off. You owe it to yourself to tune in each week. You'll learn about underground sex scenes, hear titillating true stories that will make your jaws drop, and get sexpert advice that will give you the confidence and empowerment to go after your true goals. It's unlike any other show out there. You've really got to hear it to believe it. So be sure to tune in to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcast. New episodes every Thursday.

[Sloan Glass]

Hi listeners. I'm Sloan Glass, the host of American Homicide, a podcast where we take you across the country to investigate some of America's deadliest crimes. We'll explore how these murders are shaped by their unique landscapes and in turn, how these tragedies have shaped the fabric of these American communities forever. And you can get access to all episodes of American Homicide 100% ad free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for I Heart True Crime plus and subscribe today.

[Robert Evans]

We're back. We're talking about Dr. Oz, who in the mid-90s has started some weird alternative medicine stuff.

[Matt Lieb]

Now, he's not the person who starts the alternative medicine program at Columbia Presbyterian.

[Robert Evans]

Hospital, which is also like a teaching hospital, whatever. It's one of those hospitals that they have a medical school with, you know. You know, the thing, if television has.

[Matt Lieb]

Taught me accurately, all of the doctors are fucking constantly.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Mm, mm. Doctors fucking teach. That's what they do.

[Matt Lieb]

Doctors fucking. They teach.

[Robert Evans]

That's all they do. You know, when you're not teaching, you're fucking.

[Matt Lieb]

And Columbia Presbyterian was among the most reputable medical establishments on planet Earth.

[Robert Evans]

Still is, as far as I'm aware.

[Matt Lieb]

So this alternate medicine program there is kind of an odd thing. It was not started at the behest.

[Robert Evans]

Of anyone at the top of the school.

[Matt Lieb]

The whole thing came about because in 1993, a retired utility executive named Richard Rosenthal gave them three quarters of a million dollars as a private grant in order to establish a center to study alternative medicine.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Just gifted money, and just said, start, do this. Start a magic doctoring school.

[Robert Evans]

They're like Hogwarts O. Richard had been.

[Matt Lieb]

Motivated by having several close friends of his get terribly sick in such a way that doctors told them there was.

[Robert Evans]

Nothing that could be done to help them. And his response was to basically throw.

[Matt Lieb]

A bunch of money into a hole to see if alternative medicine could come up with solutions.

[Robert Evans]

And it's one of those things I.

[Matt Lieb]

Could make fun of.

[Robert Evans]

Like, this is almost exactly a week.

[Matt Lieb]

After my mom just died of a type of cancer that when you get.

[Robert Evans]

Diagnosed with it, pancreatic, there's basically nothing they. You know, it's even like she went through chemo and it did nothing. You know, I get it. You go through something like that, okay, well, let's try other shit, you know, So I can't even blame Richard for.

[Matt Lieb]

Like, it seems like he was motivated out of grief to do this, you know?

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah. You can't blame people for trying to try any other alternative to. I mean, you know, something in which there is no cure in modern medicine.

[Robert Evans]

I will blame the snake oil salesman. I'm never going to blame someone who's.

[Matt Lieb]

Like, well, doctor said they can't cure.

[Robert Evans]

Me, so I'm going to eat this root. You know, fuck it. Why not go for it? Who gives a shit? Like, you can't hurt if you're definitely going to die. Yeah.

[Matt Lieb]

And it is, to be honest, like.

[Robert Evans]

It is kind of within even.

[Matt Lieb]

You could argue within kind of medical best practices.

[Robert Evans]

Because one of the things if, like.

[Matt Lieb]

I took EMT training years ago, one of the things they tell you is.

[Robert Evans]

That you're not supposed to use an aed, you know, like paddles to restart A heart.

[Matt Lieb]

You're not supposed to use them on.

[Robert Evans]

An infant, but if an infant is in, you know, the state where, like, you use them on them because they're dead.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Shock the shit out of them.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, they're dead.

[Matt Lieb]

You can't make dead worse.

[Robert Evans]

So, like, why not? So I guess, like, yeah, you can't. I don't know.

[Matt Lieb]

Can't make it worse. Why not? See if it. If something happens.

[Robert Evans]

I'm not against the basic idea of.

[Matt Lieb]

Testing some of this shit is what I'm doing.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

The worst thing you're gonna get out of that is a really cool TikTok video of electrocuting a dead body.

[Matt Lieb]

Absolutely.

[Robert Evans]

And then you get a fuckload of.

[Matt Lieb]

Followers, and then you start selling brain pills.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

It's a perfect plan.

[Robert Evans]

So, yeah, so I can't blame the college for this.

[Matt Lieb]

I can't blame the guy for funding it. It's a reasonable thing. Why not?

[Robert Evans]

You know what? That's kind of my attitude is, why the fuck not?

[Matt Lieb]

And that's more or less what the dean of faculty of medicine at the college said. Like, all right, well, we're not paying for it. Why not give it a shot? That said, a lot of medical professionals.

[Robert Evans]

Were really angry about the idea.

[Matt Lieb]

Dr. Victor Herbert, a Columbia Medical School graduate and a professor of medicine at Mount Sinai and a board member of the National Council Against Health Fraud, publicly lambasted the lecturers brought in by the program as con artists and sociopathic liars. And knowing the kind of people who.

[Robert Evans]

Get into the selling this shit business, I don't know if he's wrong about that.

[Matt Lieb]

A lot of these people are fucking sociopaths.

[Robert Evans]

You know, he says, quote, I am nasty.

[Matt Lieb]

I call practitioners of fraud practitioners of fraud. It's my feeling that the Rosenthal center has been promoting fraudulent alternatives as genuine. And I get his critiques.

[Robert Evans]

You know, that is one of the.

[Matt Lieb]

Like, I can say on one hand, what's the harm? But also maybe the harm is that people hear this stuff is being done.

[Robert Evans]

In a hospital, so it must help when it doesn't. And maybe some of those people do that.

[Matt Lieb]

Not the way Dr. Oz is doing it. Where we're going to do the normal.

[Robert Evans]

Medical procedure, we'll have this done.

[Matt Lieb]

Maybe some people decide, I just want to have the energy work done, and.

[Robert Evans]

Then they drop dead of a heart attack because it doesn't replace a valve.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

You know, I'd like to think that even at a hospital or a research facility with Western medicine that they still peer review and try out different, you know, like, alternative medicines, right?

[Robert Evans]

You know, like some of them, some of them work.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Some of them work. Like there was a time when, you know, acupuncture was seen as kind of like a croc. And now it's like kind of just a standard part of western medicine. It's just, you know, so.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, and there's, there's a lot to.

[Matt Lieb]

Be said about even acupuncture.

[Robert Evans]

You know, I went through a lot.

[Matt Lieb]

Of it as a kid and it did nothing for me.

[Robert Evans]

But my grandpa swore by it for his Parkinson's. And even if it was, I don't know, you could say it's like fucking whatever, placebo.

[Matt Lieb]

But he experienced relief. So I don't care.

[Robert Evans]

Like, yeah, I don't know. I'm not going to get into like. Because I don't know. I don't know all of the. I know it's one of those things.

[Matt Lieb]

Where there's a number of divergent opinions.

[Robert Evans]

On acupuncture, but a number of things.

[Matt Lieb]

That were initially considered alternative medicines have.

[Robert Evans]

Been found to have medical, you know, benefits.

[Matt Lieb]

Not that that's the norm, but it has happened in history, you know, different kind of traditional or whatever treatments. So this is very controversial though, is the point I'm making. And a number of people even picketed the college when the Rosenthal center opened. None of this dissuaded Dr. Oz from participating in it. His explanation as to why he embraced alternative medicine was, to be quite honest, kind of brilliant. He said that his by this point, vast experience as a real doctor had really informed him of the limits of medical science. Specifically, he said that while he could.

[Robert Evans]

So bypass grafts and even implant a.

[Matt Lieb]

New heart into someone's chest, he couldn't change the habits that had made them sick in the first place, nor could he cure the emotional issues that they were dealing with. Depression, he pointed out, was a major risk factor in heart patient recovery post surgery and things like meditation. Right, that's, that's kind of considered woo. New Age.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Right.

[Matt Lieb]

That can help with depression and that can help with healing.

[Robert Evans]

And he's right about that. Bad point to make. Yeah.

[Matt Lieb]

So he seemed to insinuate when he was talking to the New York Times. Why wouldn't a caring physician want to try everything possible to improve his patients odds? He could point out that meditation had shown some benefit for heart disease patients. Who was to say that other stuff wouldn't work? Dr. Oz told the New York Times that he felt ethically obliged to experiment in new directions in medicine. The article makes it clear that Dr. Oz had not let up one bit in the workaholic tendencies that he inherited from his father as well.

[Robert Evans]

And I'm going to quote from the Times again here.

[Matt Lieb]

Mehmet Oz is one of those rare beings who seem incapable of sloth. He's doing a heart transplant right now, his secretary says on the phone, and he's got a double lung transplant waiting. And those are in addition to his two regularly scheduled open hearts. And then at three he's supposed to fly to Boston to deliver a lecture. So exceptional is Oz's energy that some of his colleagues use him as a benchmark correlating their own vitality is a fraction of a full Mehmet unit. He runs down lobs size. His tennis partner, mentor and department chairman, Dr. Eric A. Rose, who at 44 is one of.

[Robert Evans]

The top heart transplant surgeons in the world.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

So I can't tell you how nervous I would be going into a lung transplant procedure and then hearing like this doctor's got to do a heart after you and then got a fly to Boston. I'd be like, you think you could maybe take your time with this, bro? Like, could you?

[Robert Evans]

I get that.

[Matt Lieb]

I do.

[Robert Evans]

It is a matter.

[Matt Lieb]

We'll talk about this at the end too. We don't have enough of these guys.

[Robert Evans]

It's actually a major health problem how few people there are that can do this. Yeah. But it is exhausting.

[Matt Lieb]

Everything you read about this guy's daily. Like you're just one of those people who.

[Robert Evans]

I think I kind of get the.

[Matt Lieb]

Feeling I don't want to psychoanalyze someone. But you get the feeling he can't.

[Robert Evans]

Be alone and still like he has to always be moving towards something.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah. He's got his dad in the back of his head, you know, telling him to murder that kid in the ice cream shop.

[Matt Lieb]

Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

To kill that fucking. Kill that fucking kid.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

He doesn't know what he wants to be. Yeah, I mean, I imagine that would create a bit of a problem later in life with stillness.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, I feel for him a little bit in that. Sure.

[Matt Lieb]

Now the article also goes into more detail about how Dr. Oz's wives, Dr. Oz's wife's family piqued his interest in alternative medicine. His father in law was one of the surgeons on the first heart transplant team in Texas. He'd also been nicknamed the Rock Doc by Rolling Stone for playing music in the OR to relax patients.

[Robert Evans]

His mother in law had developed a.

[Matt Lieb]

Special low fat diet for her husband's cardiac patients. And this was really before it was a accepted that low fat diets would be Good for heart patients. She once refused surgery for her own inflamed gallbladder and handled it instead by altering her diet. She taught her son in law, Dr. Oz, about using arnica for sore muscles and herbal tea for stomach aches.

[Robert Evans]

So he gets brought in in part to alternative medicine by these people who.

[Matt Lieb]

Have a real medical background and are doing things that aren't widely accepted but.

[Robert Evans]

Also may help music.

[Matt Lieb]

I think there's some data now on how music can help with. With certain aspects of the healing process.

[Robert Evans]

Mother in law seemed to be on the cutting edge of that.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

When you said the rock doc, I got concerned. I thought he was going to replace people's hearts with crystals and shit. And I was like, oh no, oh no, they all die.

[Robert Evans]

But my God, their hearts are pretty.

[Matt Lieb]

So this is how Mehmet gets introduced to the wide world of quack cures. And it makes sense. He enters it through largely reasonable ways, alternative treatments that have some positive impact on people. That's in. There's extremely reasonable stuff in the article.

[Robert Evans]

In general, like, Dr. Oz points out.

[Matt Lieb]

That in 1995, American hospitals had only recently allowed family to stay in the hospital with a patient. While in Turkey it was common for families to do this. And of course, having loved ones nearby can help a patient's morale, which can influence how well they heal.

[Robert Evans]

No one I think today would even.

[Matt Lieb]

Like think to disagree with that.

[Robert Evans]

It didn't used to be common.

[Matt Lieb]

It changed. So he's, he's in medicine during a time when a lot of stuff that.

[Robert Evans]

Like, just wasn't, that is kind of.

[Matt Lieb]

Now common sense medicine wasn't. And I think that kind of opens his eye to like, well, maybe all this other shit works.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah. Yeah, maybe everything in my head is correct. Yeah, we're slowly getting to him. Turning into a complete narcissist.

[Matt Lieb]

Yeah. And the article kind of veers right from. Yeah, having loved ones in the room can. Can influence how well you heal.

[Robert Evans]

To Dr. Oz's love of energy work.

[Matt Lieb]

Particularly his work with a lady named Mots who believed she could sense the energy of heart transplant patients. The Times article certainly does not portray.

[Robert Evans]

This woman in a particularly positive light.

[Matt Lieb]

Quote, she now has her surgical sea legs under her. But the first time Motts observed open heart surgery, she had a shaky debut. She had been standing at the patient's head outside the sterile field, periodically telling Oz what changes she was able to sense in the patient's energy. The patient was obviously not awake, but probably had some awareness, most likely smell and perhaps hearing open heart patients are often fitted with headphones and provided with tapes to listen to, including, if they want, Oz's own specially recorded soupy trance music. For the bypass team, it was quite a novelty to hear Motts report that she was registering the patient's moods in her body, various states of fear, anger, or satisfaction perceived as roughness in her chest or turbulence in her stomach. At one point, seeing that Motts was not looking so good herself, Oz asked a burly assistant to take her outside for some air.

[Robert Evans]

When he returned, he said, I sense.

[Matt Lieb]

A change in my stomach. It's a tenseness. No, it's a growling. No, wait a minute. I'm just hungry.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Oh, my God. I swear she seemed like she is just describing her own feelings and then just ascribing them to an open heart surgery.

[Robert Evans]

But yeah, it's one of those things.

[Matt Lieb]

I'm not sure exactly what type of.

[Robert Evans]

Energy work this person is doing because there's a few different kind of categories of it.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

She's checking the vibes, dude. She's checking the vibes. Just making sure, you know, the vibe dipstick is filled with oil.

[Matt Lieb]

I should note if I'm going to be totally fair, that Reiki, which has its origins in Japan, has been shown in some early scientific studies to help diminish the symptoms of chemotherapy and to significantly alter people's experience of physical and emotional pain.

[Robert Evans]

And I have some friends who swear by it for kind of physical and.

[Matt Lieb]

Emotional pain in particular.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

I don't know what Ricky is. I've heard of it. Is it like when Mr. Miyagi rubs his hands together and then he puts energy work?

[Robert Evans]

I guess. I don't know. It's not a kind of thing that I particularly believe in, and I kind of think in a lot of cases.

[Matt Lieb]

It'S that you have a good relationship with the practitioner and you trust them.

[Robert Evans]

And it can be an emotionally soothing thing, which can. I don't know.

[Matt Lieb]

There were early studies, scientific studies, that showed that it could diminish the symptoms of chemotherapy and reduce people's experience of pain. Now, further studies were commissioned after these early studies, which, starting in the early 2000s, were more negative. A number of hospitals did, however, add Reiki practitioners to their stable of. Available. Of available providers, in part as a result of, like, the work that Dr. Oz and the center at Columbia was doing. You can find these people in hospitals.

[Robert Evans]

Now, and it's worth noting that a.

[Matt Lieb]

Number of the positive studies about Reiki and other similar things were conducted by the national center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine. Their work is problematic to say the least. And I'm going to quote now from an analysis of several studies conducted by this organization by Professor Dr. Edzard Ernst, quote, Three studies suggested that energy medicine had an effect, but their authors either applied statistics inappropriately confounded the effects of energy healing by adding unrelated interventions to the experimental condition, or failed to design or blind equivalent placebo controls. Their results are therefore untrustworthy. The two studies that were well designed failed to demonstrate effects from energy and healing. The odds of generating a useful result of a clinical trial of energy medicine are small. Moreover, what impact would negative studies have? Scientists will simply say, we could have told you so. And proponents are unlikely to change their mind. Proponents may then claim that the negative study must have been flawed or that energy medicine cannot be investigated by the tools of science. Or they might rely on the nccam.

[Robert Evans]

That organization I talked about funded studies.

[Matt Lieb]

That generated biased but apparently positive results. The NCCAM's approach encourages a self perpetuating cycle of misinterpreting research and conducting flawed research, which inevitably generates some studies that erroneously claim positive effects and give the false impression that the efficacy of energy medicine is still scientifically unresolved.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Man, we are just veering into anti vax territory and like anti mass territory. People who just, they google stuff and then they go, this article right here.

[Robert Evans]

Says that mass actually and they can't, they can't analyze. And it's from a government science organization. You know, these guys like, and here's a study that said, and it's like, well, okay, but you actually look at scientists who don't have a vested and.

[Matt Lieb]

Often financial interest in this and they.

[Robert Evans]

Point out all these very obvious flaws in the study.

[Matt Lieb]

It's worth noting that the NCCAM was founded in 1998, three years after the.

[Robert Evans]

New York Times article about Dr. Oz.

[Matt Lieb]

And the alternative medicine center at Columbia was published. Now, Dr. Oz at this point was.

[Robert Evans]

Not yet on Oprah's show, but he.

[Matt Lieb]

Had been featured on TV several times for his pioneering work with mechanical hearts as well as his embrace of alternative medicine. You can draw a direct line.

[Robert Evans]

I don't know if we would have AN NCCAM without Dr. Oz. I don't know. You can't say that for certain.

[Matt Lieb]

But he is someone who, before his embrace of alternative medicine, starts to be well known as an exceptional doctor and.

[Robert Evans]

Scientists, he embraces this stuff, Columbia starts studying this stuff, and even though everything they find is pretty inconclusive, the fact.

[Matt Lieb]

That it's in an actual hospital lends it legitimacy. This organization is started in order to Test this stuff. The organization is filled with people who already believe in it, carrying out tests that are flawed. And it helps prepare this culture.

[Robert Evans]

Believing too much in this stuff, my.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

God, it's just like, it's a real life Facebook group. It's just like everyone already believes in all this stuff and they just keep just co signing each other's bullshit.

[Robert Evans]

And it's one of those things.

[Matt Lieb]

Again, I know people who swear by.

[Robert Evans]

Ricky, who gain emotional benefits from it, who think it helps with, you know, a number of things, including like physical, including emotional pain.

[Matt Lieb]

And like, if you find something that.

[Robert Evans]

Helps you alleviate your emotional pain, power to, you know, you're never going to hear me say a damn word against it.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

You know, go with God. That's, that, that's all great. But I mean, you want to relieve pain. Try some morphine though, dog, because that shit. Oh my God, morphine.

[Matt Lieb]

And there's no downsides to morphine.

[Robert Evans]

That's the best part of it.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

I can't think of one downside to morphology.

[Robert Evans]

Not a single one.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah, it just feels good the whole time and you just need to take more.

[Matt Lieb]

My issue is not so much with.

[Robert Evans]

Any particular treatment, not that, not, not even an issue that people would like. It's number one, a lot of people will issue actual medical treatment in favor.

[Matt Lieb]

Of some of this stuff.

[Robert Evans]

And it's not going to. I'm trying to be as fair as I can.

[Matt Lieb]

Is not going to solve your blocked.

[Robert Evans]

Cardiac pathways, you know? Yeah, like, it's not going to fix it.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah. I mean, energy is great, but Plavix works wonders.

[Robert Evans]

You know, this is a lot better. And it's, it's, it's more to the point.

[Matt Lieb]

Even more than that is it gets.

[Robert Evans]

Us on this, this road of increasingly.

[Matt Lieb]

Accepting and legitimizing things that there's no.

[Robert Evans]

There'S not a scientific basis for.

[Matt Lieb]

And that leads us to shit like let's drink bleach to cure the coronavirus.

[Robert Evans]

Like, you know, it's where the road ends.

[Matt Lieb]

I have more of a problem with.

[Robert Evans]

Than Dr. Oz experimenting with an energy worker during a surgery. Like it's where that leads to.

[Matt Lieb]

And he plays a major role in legitimizing that.

[Robert Evans]

He's, he, he helps put it, he helps put our national foot on the gas pedal into the post science age.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah, it's a slippery slope to that, you know, downing that brain octane oil.

[Robert Evans]

Exactly, exactly. So, yeah, at this point, though, we're.

[Matt Lieb]

Talking still in the mid-90s. Everything Dr. Oz is saying is reasonable from a certain point of view. He's not claiming that Ricky's going to cure cancer.

[Robert Evans]

He's not even claiming it's going to.

[Matt Lieb]

Cure your heart disease. He's saying it could help with recovery. And a lot of recovery is mental.

[Robert Evans]

And he's not.

[Matt Lieb]

It's possible.

[Robert Evans]

He's right.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

He's not yet a bastard.

[Robert Evans]

It's certainly not impossible for this kind.

[Matt Lieb]

Of stuff to have a mental impact.

[Robert Evans]

Which can positively affect recovery. Okay, yeah. So, yeah, he's not a bastard. At this point, nearly all of his.

[Matt Lieb]

Alternative medical claims were things that you could argue were at least to some extent reasonable based on the way he framed them. And he was, most importantly, regardless of whatever kind of woo woo stuff he got into, an exceptionally gifted medical professional who was performing something like 250 heart surgeries a year.

[Robert Evans]

You know, that's 250 lives a year. Yeah, extended.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

That's.

[Robert Evans]

That's great.

[Matt Lieb]

He's not a bastard yet.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah, he's doing great work so far. You know, despite the little weird heart stuff.

[Matt Lieb]

Fine.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

A little bit of energy, a little bit of heart surgery, it works out.

[Robert Evans]

And the thing though, that is, I think is happening during this period and I don't know how conscious a choice.

[Matt Lieb]

This is by Dr. Oz, I think.

[Robert Evans]

It is because of the fact that.

[Matt Lieb]

He gets an MBA as well, and.

[Robert Evans]

The fact that he's very good at getting press, very good at getting on tv, at getting in the news. I think he is at this point.

[Matt Lieb]

Crafting his career to make himself into.

[Robert Evans]

An ideal candidate for famous TV doctor.

[Matt Lieb]

I think he is building a background that will allow him to establish his celebrity career later. It is not hard to see how a handsome doctor with TV experience, a New York Times profile talking about alternative medicine, and a seriously impressive resume was going to wind up eventually on Oprah Winfrey's radar. He almost built himself perfectly for that to happen. And he tried in the early 2000s, he tried with his wife to start a TV show.

[Robert Evans]

They, like, filmed a pilot episode. It didn't really take off, but he succeeds. And I think he's pushing and his wife is pushing him to get in.

[Matt Lieb]

She's very much his business partner.

[Robert Evans]

To develop himself into a media personality. And he eventually succeeds in 2004 in.

[Matt Lieb]

Getting invited to Oprah Winfrey Show Now. Mehmet immediately endeared himself to Winfrey's audience with his willingness to discuss frank health details in a way that was demystifying and humorous. He most famously explained that healthy poops tended to be shaped like an S and should hit the water like An Olympic diver with very little splash. Oprah herself later recalled when he made it okay to talk about the shape of a good poop. I knew he could talk about anything. He always found ways to make the.

[Robert Evans]

Human body endlessly fascinating.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Man, that is. I mean, I'm low key impressed that he impressed Oprah with doo doo shapes.

[Robert Evans]

It's mom stuff. You know, moms love poop.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

They love talking about doo doo. That's the thing.

[Robert Evans]

And that's what, like, Oz does exactly.

[Matt Lieb]

The right things to endear himself to.

[Robert Evans]

Like, millions of middle class moms.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

Which is the best market in the country.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

It's an incredible market.

[Matt Lieb]

You can make all of the money if you can get a few million middle class moms to love you.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah. I worked at this digital. What do you call it? Like, a digital production company. And the most famous person that we dealt with was a famous Facebook mom who had millions of followers. And I would watch her stuff and I was like, this is maybe the most awful shit I've ever seen. It was just a lady in a car yelling at people about kids. But she was a famous moment. I mean, if you can become a famous mom, you will be one of the most famous people in the country.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. I mean, it's the power of particularly.

[Matt Lieb]

Middle class moms can't be exaggerated.

[Robert Evans]

Like in Portland, the cops and the.

[Matt Lieb]

Feds were able to fuck over as many people as they wanted until they started gassing moms.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Right, Exactly.

[Robert Evans]

The whole country's pissed.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah. They're like, hey, listen, you can do that to people of color, but those are moms.

[Robert Evans]

Those are white moms.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Those are white moms. That could be my mother.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

You know what else? Yeah. Where are you going with that?

[Unknown]

Where are you going with that?

[Robert Evans]

Right? Moms.

[Unknown]

I thought you were gonna say, you know, what else is your mom. That's where I thought you were going with that.

[Robert Evans]

You know what else is your mother?

[Matt Lieb]

The products and services that support this podcast.

[Gabe Gonzalez]

Are you curious about the world of queer sexuality? Cruising and expanding your horizons Just hit play on the fiercely sex positive and deeply entertaining podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Join hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson Rosso as they explore gay culture through candid conversations with special guests, intimate revelations from their own lives, and plenty of practical advice to navigate your journey. Their goal is that Sniffy's Cruising Confessions will help broaden minds, expand understanding, and entertain your. Pants off. You owe it to yourself to tune in each week. You'll learn about underground sex scenes, hear titillating true stories that will make your jaws drop. And get sexpert advice that will give you the confidence and empowerment to go after your true goals. It's unlike any other show out there. You've really got to hear it to believe it. So be sure to tune in to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday.

[Sloan Glass]

Hi, listeners. I'm Sloan Glass, the host of American Homicide, a podcast where we take you across the country to investigate some of America's deadliest crimes. We'll explore how these murders are shaped by their unique landscapes and in turn, how these tragedies have shaped the fabric of these American communities forever. And you can get access to all episodes of American Homicide 100% ad free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iheart True Crime and subscribe today.

[Robert Evans]

We're back.

[Unknown]

So we've. So we've all just agreed that Matt is very funny. That was the discussion over the break.

[Matt Lieb]

You made this one into a two parter, Matt.

[Robert Evans]

So audience can thank you for two episodes about Dr. Oz this week.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

All right? Or they can blame you.

[Robert Evans]

And if they blame him, Matt's home address is. We love to dox our guests.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Dox me, baby.

[Robert Evans]

So Oprah had Dr. Oz on her.

[Matt Lieb]

Show 55 times over the course of five years. She gave him the nickname America's Doctor, which stuck. And although I'm not saying this in.

[Robert Evans]

A positive sense is unfortunately accurate, he's.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Definitely America's Doctor, just appealing to the lowest common denominator, the stupidest human being, America's Doctor.

[Matt Lieb]

And if you look at the health of the average American, you can tell.

[Robert Evans]

The quality of job he's done.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Eat more bread. Everybody eat bread.

[Robert Evans]

Well, actually, that's the one thing he is. He's actually pretty good about, like weight loss. Well, I don't know.

[Matt Lieb]

That's still debatable.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Stop defending Dr. Osborne.

[Robert Evans]

I'm not going to defend. I just love to be fair, you know?

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

I know you do. You're very fair.

[Matt Lieb]

Look, say what you will about Hitler.

[Robert Evans]

No, you will.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

He was a vegetarian, and that's good for the environment.

[Robert Evans]

The man cared about animal rights.

[Matt Lieb]

By 2009, it was clear that Dr. Oz had more than enough star power to justify a shot at his own show. Oprah's production company had little trouble finding a buyer for what was sure to be a blockbuster new series. Her show celebrated the launch of Dr. Oz's show with an entire episode dedicated to Dr. Oz, which acted as something of a coming out party for his brand.

[Robert Evans]

From a press release on Oprah.com, this is talking about the special Dr. Oz episode.

[Matt Lieb]

Moving personal stories and extraordinary surprises are featured throughout the hour as Dr. Oz meets viewers who share how his advice saved their lives. From those who noticed life threatening diseases their doctors missed. To those who lost weight thanks to his diet tips from Dr. Oz, real people step forward to offer their thanks to America's Doctor. Plus, it's the reunion that Dr. Oz never imagined would happen. As Oprah show producers track down a young boy he cared for in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina and the two.

[Robert Evans]

Reunite for the first time. He's like the fucking perfect guy for this.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

I mean, I love that. It literally sounds like an hour long special of people just thanking him, which might be the most narcissistic thing I think I've ever heard. Yeah, I mean, like, it's one thing for Oprah to do that because I think America does legitimately owe her thanks for just years of content, you know.

[Robert Evans]

But years of mostly dangerous health based content.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Oh, yeah. No, I mean, it's awful content. But the fact is it's quantity over quality in America and, you know, but an hour of just thanking Dr. Oz and having people come up to him like, you saved me is fucking wild.

[Matt Lieb]

It's worth noting in terms of his bastardry.

[Robert Evans]

That and kind of the acceleration from.

[Matt Lieb]

Hey, maybe energy healing works to becoming a monster. The early 2000s is the period in which Oprah becomes aware of a Brazilian healer named John of God who believes he can do psychic surgery and like remove tumors.

[Unknown]

John of God?

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah, yeah. Oh, of the Brazilian of Gods. Cool.

[Matt Lieb]

And on the episode in which she.

[Robert Evans]

Introduces John of God to America, Dr.

[Matt Lieb]

Oz comes on and gives his professional.

[Robert Evans]

Opinion that like, he seems like he's.

[Matt Lieb]

Really having an effect on people. And I can't explain it. I don't think medical science can explain.

[Robert Evans]

What this man is doing. Basically giving a real doctor's opinion that.

[Matt Lieb]

This guy's gotta be legit.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah.

[Matt Lieb]

John of God later turned out to be a mass rapist. On these, on a scale, hundreds of victims, on a scale almost incomprehensible. We did a two parter on John of God. You can listen to it.

[Robert Evans]

It's a fucking nightmare.

[Matt Lieb]

This guy never gets half the following that he has if it's not for.

[Robert Evans]

Oprah and Dr. Oz. So.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Wow. Holy shit.

[Robert Evans]

It's good shit. Good shit.

[Matt Lieb]

I found a fascinating New York Times article written a few months into Dr. Oz's new show. It notes that in transitioning to his own series, Dr. Oz had to spice up his act for a daily daytime audience. Quote, potentially distracted by the tantrums of a toddler or the yelping of a labradoodle. They go on to summarize his early episodes. His show tackles topics as diverse and diversely weighty as skin cancer, kitchen burns, sleep eating, and pubic hair loss. Returning constantly to the same television motherlode Winfrey profitably mined, weepy, overweight guests who vow and often fail to get in shape.

[Robert Evans]

And it has taken its star far.

[Matt Lieb]

Away from any sort of traditional medical practice. He explains that transition as the product of frustration. Too often, he told me he would sit in an office and be telling you stuff too little, too late. That if you'd been able to lose a little weight or if your diabetes had been managed more aggressively, then it would have dramatically altered your destiny, which is now to go downstairs and have open heart surgery. With his TV show, he can exhort Americans to end all aspect, to tend all aspects of their health head to toe before they reach a point of no return, lose weight, go to Brazil and get sexually assaulted by a con man.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Oh, God. Oh, wow. You know, there's always that point, you know, I've listened to your show and there's always that point in the episode where the comedian or the guest has no other option but to just say, fuck, that sucks, dude. There's no other comment. But what? Oh, that's crazy. But, you know, hey, John of God, Dr. Oz, they all sound like great people.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Lieb]

And it's going to get worse.

[Robert Evans]

You know, this is kind of the period. One of the things he starts to.

[Matt Lieb]

Do in this period is he starts.

[Robert Evans]

Cutting back on his surgical practice and performing fewer surgeries.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah. Because he's got to keep up all those TV dates.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Matt Lieb]

In order to tell people about John.

[Robert Evans]

Of God, the mass rapist. And in order to tell people about. But, I don't know, some stuff that's good.

[Matt Lieb]

Right. Telling people to eat healthier's a good America's diet sucks.

[Robert Evans]

His diet advice, I think is, well, we'll talk about that later. It's also problematic. Anyway, he's trading objectively useful medical work for being a nonsense doctor.

[Matt Lieb]

But he's making millions of dollars.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah. And in America, that is the ultimate marker of doing the right thing.

[Robert Evans]

That's the only thing that tells you.

[Matt Lieb]

Whether or not you're doing the right thing.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

If you make a lot of money, then whatever you're doing is the right thing to do.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

It's morally correct to make a lot of money.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Matt Lieb]

Morally righteous.

[Robert Evans]

Righteous wealth, yes. You know what else is righteous, Matt?

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Is it the products and services?

[Robert Evans]

No, my man, it's you. Because the episode's over. Part one is over, and we're gonna. We're gonna. We're gonna sail out.

[Matt Lieb]

But first, you've got to plug your pluggables.

[Robert Evans]

And I just decided to compliment you before we.

[Chris Patterson Rosso]

Yeah, that's very nice. Here, here. I thought you were just trying to get me to talk about products and services. Well, I thank you for having me on. I have a product and or service called Pod Yourself a Gun. It's a Sopranos podcast. And yeah, if you like the Sopranos, or even if you don't, check it out on the, you know, wherever the podcast store is podcast.

[Robert Evans]

All right, well, this is the show that it is, and we're done doing.

[Matt Lieb]

The things that we do.

[Robert Evans]

So go out into the world and.

[Matt Lieb]

I don't know, find Dr. Oz and scream at him. Give him a good.

[Robert Evans]

Give him a good screaming.

[Sloan Glass]

Hi, listeners. I'm Sloan Glass, the host of American Homicide, a podcast where we take you across the country to investigate some of America's deadliest crimes. We'll explore how these murders are shaped by their unique landscapes, and in turn, how these tragedies have shaped the fabric of these American communities forever. And you can get access to all episodes of American Homicide 100% ad free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for Iheart True Crime plus and subscribe today.