← Behind the Bastards
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- [00:01]
Narrator
From audio up, the creators of Stephen King Strawberry Spring Comes the Unborn. A shocking true story.
- [00:08]
Robert Evans
My babies. Please. My babies.
- [00:11]
Narrator
One woman, two lives and a secret she would kill to protect.
- [00:15]
Sophie
She went crazy, shot and killed all her farm animals, slaughtered them in front of the kids, Tried to burn their house down.
- [00:24]
Narrator
Listen to the unborn on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:31]
Sloan Glass
Sometimes where a crime took place leads you to answer why the crime happened in the first place. Hi, I'm Sloan Glass, host of the new true crime podcast American Homicide. In this series, we'll examine some of the country's most infamous and mysterious murders and learn how the location of the crime becomes a character in the story. Listen to American homicide on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:08]
Robert Evans
This is behind the Bastards, the podcast where we neg our audience in order to make them more closely drawn to us. It's a tactic I learned from pickup artists. From pickup artists? Yeah. Really? This whole show is based on the lessons I learned as a pickup artist. You can't see it, but I'm wearing an enormous hat with ostrich plumes coming off, made out of purple felt. It's an incredible hat.
- [01:35]
Matt Lieb
The most fuckable hat.
- [01:37]
Robert Evans
The most fuckable hat, yes. That was actually the first name I pitched for this podcast, but Sophie said that means nothing and no one will listen to it, so we won't move on.
- [01:47]
Unknown
He always puts lies on my name and saying that I turned down his ideas. That's just not the case, Sophie.
- [01:54]
Robert Evans
I think we can all agree that one of the best things to do is to lie about things your colleagues didn't do. Because it's funny.
- [02:01]
Matt Lieb
I agree with it.
- [02:02]
Robert Evans
Thank you. Onto the show. We're talking about Dr. Oz. And as we left the last episode off, he had just gotten Oprah'd. Right? Started his TV career, Gotten Oprah ed hard. So he started his TV career. And he also starts right around the same time he gets on TV for the first time. He starts a daily morning radio show on Oprah Winfrey's SiriusXM channel.
- [02:30]
Unknown
Never a good idea.
- [02:31]
Robert Evans
Sirius XM? No. Terrible idea.
- [02:33]
Matt Lieb
What is it about giving people three hours of uninterrupted air time? You know, there's just something about it.
- [02:41]
Robert Evans
And this is an opinion that's pretty controversial within iHeartradio. I think radio should be illegal, and I think it should be a felony. Punished by prison time for being on the radio or having a radio or thinking about the Radio.
- [02:55]
Matt Lieb
Yeah.
- [02:55]
Robert Evans
I think the only form of entertainment that should be legal is specifically my podcast.
- [03:00]
Matt Lieb
Yeah, yeah, one podcast and ads. Yes, yeah. And there should legally only be one Sopranos podcast allowed, which, as it turns out, is the case.
- [03:11]
Robert Evans
So I think if we, if we could get Chuck Schumer's ear, we can make this happen. We'll tack this onto the pot bill. No one will notice. So Dr. Oz has the Dr. Oz Show. He's got a radio show on Winfrey's XM channel where he covers very scientific topics like how God changes your brain and the happiest people in the world. Now, I found a New York Times article that was written just a few months into his tenure with his TV show, kind of at the start of his burst into stardom. And the interviewer who talked to Oz for this article seems as impressed as everyone always is by the manic, somewhat inhuman pace at which Mehmet Oz works. By this point, he'd also written six books with titles like you, the Smart Patient, you on a Diet, and you having a baby. It's like the series is the series. Yeah, yeah, the famous you, colon, whatever. And he co writes these books with another doctor. I can't tell you how much of the writing was. A lot of times, I'm not saying this is the case with Dr. Oz because he's a wild workaholic, but a lot of times when you have a guy that's his kind of famous and they write a bunch of books, they write like 10% of the book and they have someone else, a co author or a ghostwriter, do the rest. I don't know if that's the case here.
- [04:26]
Matt Lieb
There's always one Matt Damon who's writing most of Good Will Hunting, and then there's a Ben Affleck who gets top booking.
- [04:33]
Robert Evans
And I do believe Matt Damon writes most of his books.
- [04:37]
Matt Lieb
Oh, 100%.
- [04:38]
Robert Evans
Yeah. So 9 million copies of his various titles are in print by this point, like the first year of his show. So he is a very wealthy and successful man. Pretty much out the gate, money machine. Getting the start on Oprah kind of guarantees it. Basically, if Oprah likes you enough to put you on her show more than once, you're going to get rich.
- [04:58]
Matt Lieb
God damn. Yeah, I just should have spent my youth trying to get on Oprah.
- [05:05]
Robert Evans
We all should have. We all should have. So Dr. Oz gets a semi regular column for Time magazine because again, they see this guy get famous, they're like, we got to get some of that Oprah money too. We get this guy on time. People will start reading time again. And yeah, it's interesting. They give him a column, and in 2008, they included him on their list of the world's most 100 most influential people. So before they hire him to a column, they call him one of the world's most influential people. And as soon as he gets listed as One of the 100 most most influential people on the planet, Dr. Oz calls his dad, right? Like finally. Do you love it now? Yeah. This has got to be the thing. How can he not be impressed by this?
- [05:47]
Matt Lieb
Am I enough for you, papa?
- [05:50]
Robert Evans
So when he tells his dad, his dad's first question is, what number? As in how high are you on the list? And this is not a ranked thing. Like, it's not the top hundred, like going to one. It's just these hundred people are all very influential.
- [06:06]
Matt Lieb
It's not a listicle, bro.
- [06:08]
Robert Evans
Yeah, it's not a list. Oh my God. But Dr. Oz, in this interview, seemed to acknowledge that the fact that his dad reacted that way said a lot about both, you know, his dad and about their relationship. He told an interviewer, quote, he wants to know what number. Are you kidding me? There are 6 billion people on the planet. It's a rounding error.
- [06:31]
Matt Lieb
Oh, God. But, but like, but like, what number though? Because you do wonder.
- [06:36]
Robert Evans
How high are you, motherfucker?
- [06:37]
Matt Lieb
Yeah. Come on. How are you?
- [06:40]
Robert Evans
You're basically me.
- [06:41]
Matt Lieb
Yeah, exactly.
- [06:43]
Robert Evans
That interviewer, along with the New York Times wrote, quote, it's also the kind of thing that goads the sun to climb mountain after mountain, seldom pausing to enjoy the view. The good doctor did admit to engaging in a number of timesaving measures over the years. He did numerous columns which were often just recycled from other columns or chunks of his books. He provided the same list of skin moisturizing or metabolism boosting tips in different magazines or online articles. Even so, his workload was enormous. The Dr. Oz show was instantly one of the most popular shows on the planet. And Memmott was contracted to record 175 hour long episodes per year, which is a fucking brutal work schedule on its own. And the man continued to practice as a surgeon, albeit at a reduced rate. The New York Times interviewer who visited him in 2010 seemed to find his behavior and kind of his compulsive workaholism somewhat unsettling. I never saw him without a portable larder of baggies, plastic containers and thermoses of food and drink. And all of it, every crumb, every drop was helpful. Low fat Greek yogurt mixed with brightly colored berries. Spinach slaw, raw almonds, raw walnuts soaked in water to amplify their nutritional benefit. A dark green concoction of juices from vegetables, including cucumber and Parsley. Roughly every 45 to 60 minutes, as if on cue, he would ingest something from his movable buffet, but only a little bit. His portions assiduously regulated like an intravenous. Like an intravenous drip of nutrition. It was the most efficient, joyless eating I have ever seen.
- [08:14]
Matt Lieb
That is so weird.
- [08:15]
Robert Evans
I'm sorry. That's so weird.
- [08:19]
Unknown
That made me so uncomfortable to just listen to.
- [08:22]
Matt Lieb
He's cool, dude. Like, that's, you know, he's living life in the. In the most drab way possible. Just trying to. Just trying to make TV shows and do heart surgeries, you know?
- [08:31]
Robert Evans
Yeah.
- [08:32]
Matt Lieb
Who has time to enjoy anything when your daddy.
- [08:35]
Robert Evans
Joyless, efficient eating.
- [08:37]
Unknown
He's like, I don't eat or drink anything that I would enjoy.
- [08:42]
Robert Evans
You're welcome. That's so unsettling. I mean, you know what? I have known a couple of people in my life, all very skinny, who have told me, like, I just don't really like eating. Like, yeah, there's some foods that I prefer to others, but I just don't really enjoy it one way or the other. Like, I've noticed, like, some of those people wound up on the Soylent thing, and I guess, like, I mean, yeah, fine, it's like, it's whatever, you know, it's your life. If you want to eat your life.
- [09:03]
Matt Lieb
Food, eat monkey food. But don't, you know, be surprised when I judge you, you know? Yeah, like, it's. That's weird.
- [09:11]
Robert Evans
At the start, the Dr. Oz show was broadly inoffensive from a medical perspective. He gave a lot of fairly good common sense health advice. Health advice, and provided a lot of people with a friendly medical face willing to explain things their doctors might not have the time or the bedside manner to properly lay out. But Oz's fascination with alternative medicine was present from the beginning. And as time went on, he veered more and more in that direction, following both the topics that consistently drew the most viewers and the topics that were easiest to put together because 175 hours of content a year is a lot.
- [09:42]
Matt Lieb
I mean, really, though, like, at some point, you run out of shit to talk about and you have to just be like, oh, pendulums over the heart. Do they work?
- [09:51]
Robert Evans
Yeah, yeah. Punching people in the dick. Could it improve your bowels? Why not try it, Try it. I mean, you know, we, we have to do. I don't know how much content we have to do per year. 52 weeks, two hours a week? Yeah, we do like 110. Maybe like with some of the episodes that go over 120 hours of content a year for this show. And That's a lot. 175 hours of video content is huge. Like, you can't. There's not that much good. And also entertaining medical advice that you can give in a year, let alone every single year.
- [10:24]
Matt Lieb
I mean, just like, there's only so many organs to talk about, you know, after a while you just gotta invent shit.
- [10:31]
Robert Evans
Yeah. And it's this thing, it's this kind of, this inevitable churn of capitalism leading us all into this specific kind of nonsense because you can't not have content legally, you're contracted to, but also you have this whole team of people whose ability to pay their rent, whose ability to afford their homes, to keep their kids in school is dependent upon you doing this show. Outside of just the fact that he's rich, like, he's fine, but he, like, it's this thing, you have to keep putting out the thing, and you will never have enough meaningful shit to put out to do it.
- [11:05]
Matt Lieb
Right.
- [11:06]
Robert Evans
So you start in his case doing nonsense about mediums and shit, and in our case doing episodes about Dr. Oz.
- [11:17]
Matt Lieb
When you run out of bastards, eventually you just gotta find one on tv.
- [11:20]
Robert Evans
We're not out of bastards. But like, last week I spent 30 hours reading about the protocols of the Elders of Zion. I needed an off week, you know? God, we all need off weeks.
- [11:30]
Matt Lieb
That is one of my favorite absolutely real documents to read.
- [11:36]
Robert Evans
Yeah, that's why we brought you on, actually.
- [11:39]
Matt Lieb
Yeah, I'm actually one of the Elders of Zion and I got some protocols for you.
- [11:45]
Robert Evans
Oh, good times, good times. For an example of the kind of nonsense creep, I guess you'd call it, that like, advanced upon his show, In March of 2012, Dr. Oz did a show titled Medium vs Medicine. Oz's guest was a psychic who claimed she could communicate with the dead. This was one of several, and by this point, probably dozens of episodes dedicated to people who claimed to talk to the dead. Energy healing was, you know, on the fringe certainly, but at least it was something that when he started doing it, there were scientific studies saying there might be something to it. Those studies have since been to, to a large extent, discredited, but when he started doing that, there was some evidence it was a thing to try, you know, he wasn't completely out of left field.
- [12:30]
Matt Lieb
Yeah, People were at least testing it.
- [12:32]
Robert Evans
Out, doing episodes on mediums. Talking to the dead is well outside of plaus deniability territory. Right. Like you're just doing nonsense at this point.
- [12:42]
Matt Lieb
You know, it depends how they're talking. If you go up to a dead body and start talking to it, you are technically talking to the dead.
- [12:49]
Robert Evans
Now that would be a fun show. Dr. Oz breaks into morgues and talks to corpses. Yeah.
- [12:54]
Matt Lieb
Hey, how'd you die?
- [12:57]
Robert Evans
Just having his bodyguards mace police officers rolling into a crime scene, be like, who did this? How'd this go down?
- [13:08]
Matt Lieb
Are you okay?
- [13:11]
Robert Evans
I am a doctor. Do you want some almonds?
- [13:17]
Matt Lieb
They're soaked in water for more nutrition. All right, someone get me a crystal.
- [13:26]
Robert Evans
So, yeah, he had. Yeah, Dr. Oz had among his psychic guests famous grifter king John Edwards on his show. Not the politician.
- [13:37]
Matt Lieb
No, no.
- [13:37]
Robert Evans
The talks to dead TV show guy. Yeah, yeah. And he praised the reading that he received from John Edwards saying, quote, let me tell you, it changed my life. I've learned in my career that there are times when science just hasn't caught up with things, and I think this may be one of them. Which is almost exactly what he said about John of God, the guy who raped hundreds of people.
- [14:01]
Matt Lieb
Yeah, that's how, you know, like to stay far away from anything when he's just like, man, this is. This is a brand new groundbreaking territory. And you can go, all right, guys, it's a rapist, Ron.
- [14:12]
Robert Evans
It's one of those things. Part of how he's like, the intelligent way to frame this is you start with the true thing, which is there are things science can't explain. One of those things is the nature of consciousness and what happens to it after, you know, vital signs. We don't know. There's not an objective answer to that. But it going this way is kind of like being like, yeah, you know, we can't explain, like the slit box experiment. Like there's a bunch of shit in physics. I don't know. I'm not a science guy. But like, you know, particle and wave shit, you can't explain that.
- [14:41]
Matt Lieb
So there's a bunch of shit you can't explain. Magnets.
- [14:44]
Robert Evans
Yeah. How do they work?
- [14:45]
Matt Lieb
How do they work?
- [14:46]
Robert Evans
It's this jump from, yes, there are things we can't explain to. So let's listen to this man talk to the dead.
- [14:54]
Matt Lieb
Millions of people.
- [14:56]
Robert Evans
Gather round, gather round. He's going to channel your dead aunt. Yes. Maybe not a reasonable way to take a reasonable starting point.
- [15:07]
Matt Lieb
Yeah. Especially when you're a doctor on tv.
- [15:11]
Robert Evans
Yeah. And I want to quote from a write up I found in the journal of the Missouri State Medical association, quote. During another show, Oz interviewed Dr. Mossara Fali, a miracle healer to Sylvester Stallone, Prince Charles of England and others regarding his use of iridology. According to the widely debunked, bizarre belief, each part of the iris corresponds to a specific area of the body and a person's state of health could be diagnosed by examining particular regions of the iris. After expressing his amazement at Dr. Ali's diagnostic abilities, Oz stated. I want to applaud Dr. Mossaraf Ali because these are ancient traditions and they have been around for centuries, so who am I to dismiss them other than.
- [15:51]
Matt Lieb
A very well educated man, a doctor.
- [15:54]
Robert Evans
You're a doctor, Mehmet.
- [15:56]
Unknown
You had me at French Charles.
- [15:59]
Robert Evans
Yeah, it's like, you know, there's a lot of cultures who say that you should remove the clitoris surgically because it's healthier and it stops dangerous masturbation. It's ancient. Who are we to say this is a bad idea?
- [16:12]
Matt Lieb
Who are any of us to say anything's wrong? Oh, my God. I love it too. Just like I was amazed by his ability to look into my eyes and diagnose that my dad will never love me. How did he know? How did he know?
- [16:27]
Unknown
It does bring me joy that Prince Charles got fucked with, because fuck Prince Charles.
- [16:32]
Robert Evans
I wonder what his eyes said. It's funny, he said the same thing.
- [16:35]
Matt Lieb
It said, your dad will never love you. That's all he does. He goes to famous people and he goes, your dad will never love you.
- [16:40]
Unknown
Your dad will never love you so much.
- [16:43]
Robert Evans
There's this. One of the big aspects of this guy's success and of the success of the things he pushes is Orientalism. Right, right. Like this idea of like the forbidden and strange and wondrous and magical east and all of the. Yeah, we don't understand all of these. Like, oh, India is so mysterious, yada, yada, yada. What if you were to say, like. Well, for centuries tobacco companies have said that tobacco can cure, like, different lung ailments. Who are we to dismiss these ancient traditions? Yeah, the Q zone could be real.
- [17:17]
Matt Lieb
Exactly. Like, it's stops people from stuttering. Do more cocaine. I mean. Yeah, just the idea. And I've always found this in general to be the biggest load of horseshit, is when people have said, you know, this is like an ancient healing technique. And it's like. You mean like bleeding people with leeches? You know, you mean like cutting off someone's Leg. Because he got a fucking. A small infection on his tongue.
- [17:46]
Robert Evans
Ancient. It's this fucking thing with Dr. Oz. Like, it's one thing if you're just, like, traveling to another part of the world, you see some sort of medical or treatment you've never seen before, and you're like, well, who am I? Who am I to say anything about. Right. Like, I don't know. Dr. Oz is a doctor on TV talking to millions. You're literally the person who should be saying something about the legitimacy of this.
- [18:09]
Matt Lieb
Right? Yeah. Yeah. You're the guy. You're the person.
- [18:12]
Robert Evans
You are, in fact, the person who should say something about this.
- [18:16]
Matt Lieb
Who am I? You're you. He's the most famous doctor in America.
- [18:20]
Robert Evans
Yeah. And that's what that. That write up in the Journal of the Missouri State Medical association, notes, quote, who. Dr. Oz is a trained clinician and scientist, someone who can read a scientific article with a critical eye. He is someone who can filter out the noise of the placebo effect or discern the simple carnival tricks of a charlatan. The problem is that most people in his audience cannot.
- [18:41]
Matt Lieb
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's. He has a literal responsibility to tell people that these guys are full of shit, but he also has a responsibility to his show sponsors and to the network for ratings, you know?
- [18:56]
Robert Evans
You know who else has a responsibility to the show sponsors? Wow. I know.
- [19:02]
Matt Lieb
That's got to be the first time. That's got to be the first time it's ever actually been a relevant segue.
- [19:07]
Robert Evans
So fucking good.
- [19:09]
Matt Lieb
So good.
- [19:10]
Robert Evans
Anyway, here's products.
- [19:15]
Narrator
In the quiet town of Avella, Pennsylvania, Jared and Christy. Akron seemed to have it all. A whirlwind romance, a new home, and twins on the way. What no one knew was that Christy was hiding a secret so shocking it would tear their world apart.
- [19:30]
Robert Evans
911 response. What's your emergency? My babies. Please, my babies.
- [19:35]
Narrator
1 woman 2 L. And the truth more terrifying than anyone could imagine.
- [19:40]
Sophie
They had her as one of the suspects, but they could never prove it.
- [19:42]
Unknown
You're going to go to jail if you don't come with us right now. Throughout this whole thing, I kept telling myself, nobody's that crazy.
- [19:50]
Robert Evans
Crazy.
- [19:50]
Narrator
Uncover the chilling mystery that will leave you questioning everything. A story of the lengths we go to protect our darkest secrets.
- [19:58]
Sophie
She went batshit crazy. Shot and killed all her farm animals, slaughtered them in front of the kids, Tried to burn their house down.
- [20:06]
Narrator
Audio represents the unborn on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [20:17]
Robert Evans
Ah, we're back talking about Dr. Oz having just a great time. So obviously the fact that Dr. Oz. I mean, probably the fact that most of his audience couldn't discern whether or not any of these nonsense treatments were real is a big part of why the Dr. Oz show became an overnight success.
- [20:36]
Matt Lieb
Yeah.
- [20:36]
Robert Evans
Before very long, it was being watched by 4 million viewers every single day. Over the next half decade or so, he won two Emmys. His guest list included First Lady Michelle Obama, who loved Dr. Oz for his focus on healthy diets for children and in general, his crusade to get Americans to lose weight. Dr. Oz claimed, through medicine, through math, that I cannot verify that his show inspired Americans to lose 3 million cumulative pounds per year. I don't know. Maybe.
- [21:05]
Matt Lieb
Yeah. They base that on what? Like, did people call in to say how many pounds they've lost to the show?
- [21:13]
Robert Evans
I mean, I'm sure he found some way to, like, make the claim or whatever, but it's. It's very. It's. I don't know, maybe it is one of the things that he does that is. We'll talk about. There's problems with some of the diet tips he gives people, actually significant ones. But telling, like, inspiring people to lose weight is not usually bad for their health. Although it can be.
- [21:34]
Matt Lieb
Yeah. Yeah.
- [21:35]
Robert Evans
Sometimes people take it too far. And significant health problems, you know, it's a mixed bag, I guess we'd say. But the other stuff isn't a mixed bag. So I guess we'll call that his great success. So. Yeah, it is good. I will say it is unequivocally good that Dr. Oz continually pressed his audience of millions of people to eat more fruits and vegetables. Fruits and vegetables. To get better sleep, to exercise regularly, and to get their flu vaccinations. That's all rad, right?
- [22:04]
Matt Lieb
Yeah, but. Shit, I could have told you that. Give me.
- [22:07]
Robert Evans
You don't. You don't have to. You don't have to be a doctor to say that.
- [22:10]
Matt Lieb
Shit. Yeah. Eat better piggies.
- [22:12]
Robert Evans
I mean, but he's charismatic. People like him. It's good that he does that, at least.
- [22:17]
Matt Lieb
Yeah, they don't trust me, so they won't give me the show, but they should, because.
- [22:21]
Robert Evans
Yeah, the unfortunate part is that this guy gained because he's. He's handsome. A lot of. Lot. A lot of ladies out there think Dr. Oz is hot.
- [22:31]
Matt Lieb
He's a doctor.
- [22:32]
Robert Evans
He's very charismatic, he's very charming. And he gains this enormous influence with middle America, and he uses that influence to do some really fucking questionable shit. And I'm going to quote now from a write up in the AMA's Journal of Ethics. He has told mothers that there were dangerous levels of arsenic in their child's apple juice. There weren't. And suggested that green coffee is a miracle cure for obesity. Federal regulators discovered altered data in hyped coffee bean evidence. The Food and Drug Administration tested for arsenic in apple juice and found the vast majority of apple juice tested to contain low levels of arsenic and given these levels was confident in the overall safety of apple juice consumed in this country. Dr. Oz also featured two guests on his show who claimed that genetically modified foods were cancer causing despite repeated safety reports that found no adverse effects.
- [23:24]
Matt Lieb
Man. Yeah, I mean he's like, he's very, he's getting there. Like I'm, I'm watching him slowly go from Mehmet to Mangela. You know, like he's. Come on, let him be Mangela.
- [23:41]
Robert Evans
It is too good a pun to.
- [23:42]
Matt Lieb
I get that you want to be fair, Robert, but let's go for it.
- [23:46]
Robert Evans
All right, we're doing it.
- [23:48]
Matt Lieb
No, we're watching like turn into a snake oil salesman. And it's, it's very exciting.
- [23:53]
Robert Evans
Yeah. So Dr. Oz's enthusiasm for alternative medicine has had the effect of creating instant fads over any health product he even vaguely suggests on his show when he mentions the purported health benefits of white mulberry, red palm oil or brown seaweed, all of which he's claimed can do things like cut weight, reduce aging or beat the flu. Those products fly off the shelf. Oz often doesn't endorse specific brands, but he doesn't need to. Online retailers watch closely and immediately slap as seen on Dr. Oz on their pseudoscientific products.
- [24:26]
Matt Lieb
Yes, I've seen this.
- [24:27]
Robert Evans
Yeah, I've seen this. This is where we get to the big harm. He did one episode that focused on so called relaxation drinks and included a close up shot of five cans of beverages he said might help calm you down.
- [24:39]
Matt Lieb
Just a Miller High Life.
- [24:41]
Robert Evans
Yeah. He just puts a can of Colt 45 on the table. Billy Dee Williams walks out.
- [24:51]
Matt Lieb
It's a steel reserve. Trust me, you'll be relaxed.
- [24:55]
Robert Evans
You'll be calm as shit.
- [24:57]
Matt Lieb
Exactly. You might yell at your mom, but it'll be fun afterwards.
- [25:02]
Robert Evans
Yeah. You will very calmly put your hand through a taxi cab window. As soon as the episode aired, a quote, liquid sleep aid called Ichill bragged on their website. Dr. Oz is talking about a new way to wind down with relaxation drinks. They are the newest trend in helping you relax and calm down. And the Best news is they contain natural ingredients already known to promote relaxation.
- [25:30]
Matt Lieb
Mulberry laudanum.
- [25:34]
Unknown
Now I remember the I chill that turned into like an entire thing. There's so many.
- [25:38]
Robert Evans
Yeah, we're about to talk about it. Yeah. And also, if there was a laudanum drink, I would be buying it. So the problem with this is that all of these different relaxation drinks are filled with a variety of chemicals like melatonin and theanine and taurine. These drinks are unregulated, as they are not medicines or dietary supplements. But the chemicals they include all have actual impacts on the central nervous system. Pregnant women and children are often advised to avoid products with some of these chemicals, but the beverages in question rarely note this. No data exists on how these chemicals might impact people and the quantities they are added to in these beverages or when combined with other chemicals or when combined with medications people drinking them might be taking. Responsible doctors writing for the journal Nature Neuroscience, wrote a warning about these beverages that specifically called out Ichil by name. Existing research on the potential benefits and harms of some components of relaxation drinks suggests that they may not always be safe. Indeed, the FDA issued a warning last year to the manufacturers of melatonin laced brownies, citing safety concerns from the literature, including effects on the autonomic nervous system and visual system and increased expression of symptoms in a sleep disorder. Other components of relaxation drinks, such as L theanine or amino acids such as taurine, may be considered safe for consumption only at some doses by the fda. But relaxation drinks are not subject to such regulations, nor are they required to disclose the amounts of their ingredients.
- [27:10]
Matt Lieb
Oh, my God. I mean, first of all, did you say melatonin brownies?
- [27:16]
Robert Evans
Yeah, buddy, what the fuck?
- [27:18]
Matt Lieb
Like, I want to eat and just get tired immediately. Like, that is very strange. It like, here's the thing about brownies. I've never eaten one and been like, I just want to relax. Like, no, I'm trying to get a little sugar rush, to be honest.
- [27:32]
Unknown
To be honest, a sleepy time brownie. Delightful. I would be very down.
- [27:37]
Matt Lieb
Listen, pot brownies are very different. It's not. It's not the same as relaxation. Like, one is like an Ambien brownie and the other one is like a brownie that makes you hungry for more brownies. Pot brownies make sense.
- [27:50]
Unknown
Ambient brownies exist. I would love one. Thank you very much.
- [27:53]
Matt Lieb
I mean, I guess I'd rather do that than just swallow an Ambien, but man, that is.
- [27:58]
Unknown
I'm like. I'm like, gets to sleep and also got a Brownie I'm sounds awesome.
- [28:03]
Matt Lieb
It's bad for your health, I'll tell you that much.
- [28:05]
Unknown
Apparently. Am I remembering this correctly, Robert? But wasn't the I chill like like the bottle and the marketing like similar? Yeah, like an energy drink similar to like a five hour Energy. That was like the aesthetic.
- [28:18]
Robert Evans
No, no, no, I think those were, those were. They had like a weird different shaped plastic bottle. But like the problem is that again, number one, you've got a lot of people with like who are on medications that this shit interacts with and which.
- [28:29]
Matt Lieb
Is crazy that like literally a relaxation drink could be contraindicated for your prescription medication.
- [28:37]
Robert Evans
Okay, so everything Dr. Oz recommends, I guess outside of like death psychics comes with this caveat. Some of the herbs and natural medicines that he recommends do have health impacts, but they also have consequences medications they might not interact well with. Dr. Oz does not bring this up when he shotguns half assed advice out to an audience of millions. That article in Nature Neuroscience that I referenced warning about the relaxation drinks Oz recommended, It's been read 10,000 times. So the article warning people that these things can be contraindicated and might have impacts on your health and your central nervous system read 10,000 times. Dr. Oz's episode suggesting these drinks listened watched 4 million times.
- [29:21]
Matt Lieb
God damn.
- [29:23]
Robert Evans
Yeah. People started to notice that this was a problem by the mid aughts. Doctors had been complaining for a while. But in 2013, Forbes wrote a listicle laying out the silliest things Dr. Oz has suggested on his show, including the fact that having 200 orgasms a year would extend your life by six years. Here's how he explained that bit of math on his website.
- [29:44]
Matt Lieb
Dude, I'm about to live to 200 years old.
- [29:47]
Robert Evans
I ain't never dying, motherfucker.
- [29:49]
Matt Lieb
I ain't never died. I get one out at least once a day. 365.
- [29:56]
Robert Evans
Here's his website. If you have more than 200 orgasms a year, you can reduce your physiologic age by six years. Dr. Oz says he bases the number on a study done at Duke University that surveyed people on the amount and quality of sex they had. They looked at what happened to folks that are receiving a lot of intercourse over time and the fact is it correlated.
- [30:15]
Matt Lieb
Okay, wait, wait, wait. Is it sex? Because he didn't say nothing about sex. He said orgasms and I do that on my own.
- [30:25]
Robert Evans
He talked to them about the amount and quality of sex they had, but it's correlated. So again, he's basically lying here. Yeah, because Number one, what is the possibility that people who are having a lot of good sex are in better health and that's why they're able to have a lot more good sex, because they're physically healthy and so it's easier for them to.
- [30:47]
Matt Lieb
Yeah.
- [30:48]
Robert Evans
What if, what are the odds that like, if you're having more sex, you're more social, you're more likely to have a long term romantic partner that increases your lifespan? Yeah. Again, I'm of all people never going to be the guy to say there's not health benefits to sex. There sure is. Oh yeah, Dr. Oz is exaggerating this. He's taking an actual study that showed some interesting stuff and he's turning it into a lie.
- [31:13]
Matt Lieb
Yeah. He's turning it into like pretending he has quantifiable data and that like correlation and correlation is causation. Like that. Yeah, that's what he's trying to do.
- [31:24]
Robert Evans
Yeah. There is data that suggests that regular intercourse reduces men's mortality risks by 50%, which doesn't mean that fucking stops men from dying, particularly because it's men who benefit in this way. It means that men are less healthy than women tend to die faster. And when men have partners that they live with, they are more likely to have a medical problem noticed. If they have a heart attack, someone's going to be there to call the like. There's a lot of reasons why this is the case.
- [31:49]
Matt Lieb
Yeah. They're not dying alone, you know.
- [31:52]
Robert Evans
Yeah. It's not the fact that just fucking magically adds like, reduces Your age by 6 years if you do it enough. Like that's nonsense.
- [32:00]
Matt Lieb
It's nice to think it though.
- [32:02]
Robert Evans
It makes it nice to think it.
- [32:04]
Matt Lieb
I'm going to print out that article, show it to my girlfriend and say, hey, you got to help me live longer, you know, not coming enough.
- [32:12]
Robert Evans
I'm going to die.
- [32:12]
Matt Lieb
We got to do this more.
- [32:15]
Robert Evans
Yeah. Just start fucking in public and when the cops come, be like, this is medicine.
- [32:19]
Matt Lieb
Yeah. Do you want me to die six years earlier than I should?
- [32:23]
Robert Evans
I have a right to this.
- [32:25]
Matt Lieb
Dr. Oz said I should fuck more.
- [32:28]
Robert Evans
Now on its own, recommending that people get more sexes is, you know, fine. I'm very pro sex, but I am anti encouraging people to misunderstand health science. The nature of Dr. Oz's audience and the sheer breadth of things he suggests makes it difficult to analyze the total health impact of his show. But there are some dire case studies. As Vox notes in their write up quote, there's the case of a man who followed Oz's suggestion of curing insomnia by pouring uncooked rice into socks, heating them in a microwave, and wearing them to bed. The man got second and third degree burns on his feet. And the reason he got burned is because he was diabetic. He didn't have the same level of feeling in his feet.
- [33:08]
Matt Lieb
Oh, my God.
- [33:08]
Robert Evans
If he had gone to a doctor and said, hey, I heard about this thing that might help with insomnia, the doctor would say, well, you're diabetic. You don't have as much feeling in your feet. I'm worried you might burn yourself. Dr. Oz is just saying, hey, this will help you sleep. Do it, whoever you are. Again, it's this problem.
- [33:24]
Matt Lieb
Idiots.
- [33:25]
Robert Evans
You're talking to 4 million people. It will be bad advice for some of them.
- [33:29]
Matt Lieb
I mean, it's like, yeah, this all feels very much like when Trump was telling everyone about the wonders of hydro hydrochloric.
- [33:40]
Robert Evans
Oh, yeah, we're gonna talk about that later.
- [33:42]
Matt Lieb
And then people are eating fucking fish food or like, fish tank cleaner and dying and people like, how could. How could people be so stupid? And it's like, people are stupid. You can't tell them to eat the fucking fishbowl cleaner.
- [33:56]
Robert Evans
Yeah, they'll do it. They'll fucking do it. So this guy sued, but the case was thrown out because the judge determined that Oz cannot establish a physician patient relationship through tv. I agree with the judge. That's my problem with his show, is that he is a physician purporting to be giving medical advice, but is also not taking anyone's individual circumstances into account and more to the fucking point, not liable if he does any of the irresponsible things that would lend a physician doing their job traditionally in trouble.
- [34:31]
Matt Lieb
I mean, it is medical malpractice whether or not he's legally liable for it or not.
- [34:37]
Robert Evans
I would agree. Yeah. And I'm going to continue that quote from Vox. Not everyone agrees with the judge's reasoning. Rochester, New York, medical student and blogger Benjamin Mazur has been publishing anonymous stories sent to him from health professionals about the impact Oz has had on patient care. One reported that her dad had a heart attack and five stents placed in his heart, which required him to take aspirin and Plavix to prevent blood clots. He was watching Dr. Oz, who said Plavix was not necessary, so he stopped taking it. About a month later, he had another massive heart attack encoded and had to be shocked back to life. She continued, my dad admitted to following Dr. Oz's advice and not Asking his own cardiologist, man, yeah, that's really bad.
- [35:19]
Matt Lieb
Did he have a. Did he have, like, an alternative or was he just, like, decided one day that Plavix was gonna be sure?
- [35:25]
Robert Evans
It was. If I know my Dr. Oz, I'm sure it was. You don't need to take Plavix. Eat these different heart healthy foods and avoid these foods, and that'll do. All that Plavix will do.
- [35:34]
Matt Lieb
Yeah, yeah. Eat some beans and put your face in some boiled water and you should be fine.
- [35:40]
Robert Evans
I suspect it was dietary advice that if you're someone who doesn't really need Plavix, is fine or might even help you to not need it later in life if you adopt healthier habits. But the problem is, again, the way he's framing it, there's going to be a lot of people who are, like, just had stints placed in their heart. I don't need Plavix. Fuck it, you know?
- [35:56]
Matt Lieb
Yeah. Dr. Oz, the TV doctor said, I don't need this medicine. I just need more acai in my belly.
- [36:03]
Robert Evans
The TV doctor also said he can talk to ghosts. So I'm gonna go talk. I mean, you will be talking to ghosts faster if you follow all of doctor advice.
- [36:13]
Matt Lieb
I want to talk to ghosts. I'm gonna stop taking my Plavix.
- [36:16]
Robert Evans
Die of a stroke now. On his show, Dr. Oz claims that the trust of his audience is the entire reason for his relevance. Quote, the currency that I deal in is trust. And it is trust that has been given to me by an audience that has watched over 600 shows. He repeatedly references the fact that he is responding to the very real and very understandable unfilled needs of Americans who feel alienated from modern health care, which is an expensive and often inhumane labyrinthine bureaucracy. True. Is true. Yeah, absolutely.
- [36:47]
Matt Lieb
100% true. Yeah. How you exploit it is a very.
- [36:52]
Robert Evans
Different thing, but the thing he is replacing it with is, by and large, nonsense. And I'm going to quote from that write up in the Journal of Ethics again. When it comes to epistemic boundaries, Dr. Oz admits he applies different standards of evidence compared to those accepted in the medical establishment. When challenged by a reporter for the New Yorker about his questionable evidentiary standards, he replied that all data could be differentially interpreted. You find the arguments that support your data, he said, and it's my fact versus your fact. It's not that he doesn't offer data. It's common for Dr. Oz to offer some plausible mechanism from test tube experiments conducted by manufacturers combined with personal anecdotes from his own or consumer's experience to support the products he's promoting. A study of 80 recommendations made on the Dr. Oz show in early 2013 found that published evidence supported 46% of recommendations, contradicted 15% and did not support 39%.
- [37:46]
Matt Lieb
Gotta love a good, like coin flip on whether or not he's fucking lying to you and having an adverse effect on your health.
- [37:54]
Robert Evans
If your doctor said, hey, you know, 46% of the time, I give pretty good advice, yeah, you would be like, I think I'm gonna get another doctor.
- [38:02]
Matt Lieb
But he would reframe it to be like, I'm batting.500 here. And be like, Oof, 500. That's a good betting.
- [38:08]
Robert Evans
If you assume medicine is like baseball, I'm a great doctor.
- [38:12]
Matt Lieb
No, he's crushing it. Yeah, doing a great job.
- [38:16]
Robert Evans
Now, to his credit, the journal does note that a decent chunk of the blame for Dr. Oz's success lies in the very, very flawed state of mainstream medical science. Quote, we settle for incomplete, selectively published data in journals heavily subsidized by pharmaceutical companies, and for outcomes that don't give firm answers. While not on par with offering anecdotes as evidence, the fact that debates persist about what constitutes sufficiently high unbiased quality evidence to support decisions in the profession as a whole creates a wedge that Dr. Oz seems to exploit. Again, this is the journal of Ethics being like. The fact that you can pay to get a study done, the fact that we pharmaceutical companies lobby to allow them to market things in dishonest ways, the fact that doctors are bribed by companies like Purdue Pharmaceutical with vacations to recommend people take medication that is not in their best interest to take. That's why this motherfucker has a job. And the fact that healthcare is expensive, right? The fact that we don't have single payer healthcare, it all combines to the fact that a lot of people who are not idiots, I'm not saying you can be. I'm sure there's people who are brilliant electricians who fucking are brilliant at whatever, who are great at whatever it is they do, but they're not fucking doctors because most of us aren't. And it's hard to get. I am very fortunate in that I have a couple of good friends who are doctors and I am luckier than I can. One of them is a guy who was on the show recently, Kavahota. I'm luckier than I can say to be able to every now and then send them a message being like, hey, what should I do here? It's a question of, I'm having this problem. I don't know what kind of doctor to see to like get this dealt with. I don't know whose job this is and I don't want to. Like, my, my ex a while ago had a non cancerous brain tumor and it was a fucking nightmare figuring out. It took a series of different doctors and tests to figure out what kind of doctor she needed to go to to get the medication that would help. And it's. Of course people are like, well, this guy is explaining things and he's nice and he's saying that I have the power to deal with, with this if I change my diet, if I do this, if I do that.
- [40:23]
Matt Lieb
He's giving us alternatives to dealing with the bureaucracy of medical institutions in this country. I have a Kaiser and I had to go to a rheumatologist and I tried to get a hold of him on the phone and they sent me through six different call centers to finally get to his specific office. And then I asked the lady, can I get the extension so that I don't have to deal with that? And she's like, oh, sorry, we're not allowed to do that. And so now I'm just recording every phone call and just freestyling to the hold music because it's the only thing I can do. I'm like, you know what? I might as well turn this into content because this is fucking ridiculous. There's like the amount of bullshit you have to go through makes people like Dr. Oz feel like a good alternative.
- [41:13]
Robert Evans
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it's. It fucking sucks.
- [41:18]
Matt Lieb
It does.
- [41:18]
Robert Evans
It just really fucking sucks. And it fucking sucks because there's a lot of wonderful people who are part of the medical system, like the fucking doctors in the ER who were with my mom in her last days. Like incredibly competent and compassionate and amazing people who in their entire careers will never be able to do as much good as Dr. Oz does harm because he has 4 million people watching him every day. Yeah, it's a bummer.
- [41:47]
Matt Lieb
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [41:48]
Robert Evans
It's, you know, it's not a bummer. Oh, wow. Capitalism is actually a bummer. But it's the water we swim in. So here's some fucking ads.
- [42:01]
Narrator
In the quiet town of Avella, Pennsylvania, Jared and Christy. Akron seemed to have it all. A whirlwind romance, a new home, and twins on the way. What no one knew was that Christie was hiding a secret so shocking it would tear their world apart.
- [42:15]
Robert Evans
91 One Response. What's your emergency? My Babies, Please. My babies.
- [42:20]
Narrator
One woman, two lives. And the truth more terrifying than anyone could imagine.
- [42:25]
Sophie
They had her as one of the suspects, but they could never prove it.
- [42:28]
Unknown
You're going to go to jail if you don't come with us right now. Throughout this whole thing, I kept telling.
- [42:33]
Robert Evans
Myself, nobody's that crazy.
- [42:35]
Matt Lieb
Crazy.
- [42:36]
Narrator
Uncovered, chilling mystery that will leave you questioning everything. A story of the lengths we go to protect our darkest secrets.
- [42:44]
Sophie
She went bat crazy. Shot and killed all her farm animals, slaughtered them in front of the kids, tried to burn their house down.
- [42:52]
Narrator
Audio up presents the unborn on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [43:03]
Robert Evans
We're back. So in 2014, Mehmet Oz was called before a Senate subcommittee to answer questions about his unfounded claims about dietary supplements. Missouri Senator Claire McCaskill went off on him saying, I don't know why you need to say this stuff, because you know it's not true. Why, when you have this amazing megaphone and this amazing ability to communicate, would you cheapen your show by saying things like this?
- [43:28]
Matt Lieb
Then he just pulled out a wad of money and he just started making it rain all over Congress.
- [43:33]
Robert Evans
Do you know how many houses I have? She pointed out several examples of the things he cheapens his show by saying he had called green coffee extract a, quote, magical weight loss cure. Recent research has, recent research has suggested that long term use of green coffee extract causes bone density loss in animals. But you are, in fairness, you're losing weight, your bones are lighter. That's weight. Bones are heavy as hell.
- [44:02]
Unknown
It was everywhere when that came out. It was at literally not just like, it was like bed bath and beyond.
- [44:08]
Matt Lieb
Everywhere it was, get light bones. You can fly like a bird.
- [44:13]
Robert Evans
Horrible. And again, those are studies in animals. But it's the kind of thing where a responsible doctor would say, well, some studies in animals have shown that this might cause bone density loss. So in less, you know, your weight is a really disastrous health situation and your bone density is fine. I wouldn't recommend this. Dr. Oz is just saying it's a magical weight loss cure.
- [44:34]
Matt Lieb
I mean, he's not wrong. He's not wrong.
- [44:37]
Robert Evans
Yeah. Oz called raspberry ketone, quote, the number one miracle in a bottle to burn your fat. This is a fun one.
- [44:45]
Matt Lieb
First of all, it's all gasoline.
- [44:47]
Robert Evans
Part of why people, well, actually part of why people are attracted to stuff like this is that like raspberry ketone. That's natural. It sounds like, oh, if I just like getting raspberries. That's Going to help me lose weight. This chemical in a natural, healthy fruit. Of course, it makes sense that, like, some wonderful plant based medicine would be able to help me lose weight.
- [45:05]
Matt Lieb
Yeah.
- [45:06]
Robert Evans
Raspberry ketones don't come from raspberries. They can, but it takes 90 pounds of fresh raspberries to produce a single dose. As a result, they are manufactured synthetically, a fact Dr. Oz did not feel the need to explain because again, he's really critical of GMOs. And it might seem hypocritical to note that raspberry ketones are actually synthetic lab nonsense.
- [45:29]
Matt Lieb
I love when people say things like, it's natural. It's like, I think cyanide is natural. There's a lot of, like, natural poisons out there. Fucking snake venom is natural.
- [45:40]
Robert Evans
The fucking arsenic in the apple juice that he's worried about is natural.
- [45:44]
Matt Lieb
Yeah.
- [45:46]
Robert Evans
It is possible, based on animal studies, that these ketones may have some ability to reduce or slow weight gain. But no studies have ever been conducted on how raspberry ketones impact human beings. There have been reports that they increase blood pressure and heart rate in humans. Dr. Oz does not warn about this. Likewise, when Dr. Oz told his viewers that garcina cambogia may be the simple solution you've been looking for to bust your body fat for good, he did not also warn them that it can interact negatively with diabetes medications, painkillers, and psychiatric medications.
- [46:22]
Matt Lieb
Oh, my God.
- [46:23]
Robert Evans
Why would you need to warn people that? Look, what are the odds someone looking to lose weight has diabetes medications? Zero.
- [46:31]
Matt Lieb
What are the odds that someone who has diabetes is sitting around watching Dr. Oz's show? Zero.
- [46:37]
Robert Evans
Yeah. What are the odds that a middle class American is addicted to painkillers?
- [46:42]
Matt Lieb
Zero.
- [46:45]
Robert Evans
During the senate inquiry, Senator McCaskill pointed some of this out and she told Dr. Oz, when you feature a product on your show, it creates what has become known as the Dr. Oz effect, dramatically boosting sales and driving scam artists to pop up overnight using false and deceptive ads to sell questionable products.
- [47:04]
Matt Lieb
Yeah.
- [47:05]
Robert Evans
In the wake of this, which was a fairly bad day on Capitol hill for him, Dr. Oz released a somewhat contrite statement where he noted, I took part in today's hearing because I am accountable for my role in the proliferation of these scams. And I recognize that my enthusiastic language has made the problem worse at times. We're good so far.
- [47:23]
Matt Lieb
Yeah, pretty good so far.
- [47:26]
Robert Evans
Oz added in his statement. To not have the conversation about supplements at all, however, would be a disservice to the viewer. In addition to exercising an Abundance of caution in discussing promising research and products in the future. I look forward to working with all those present today and finding a way to deal with the problems of weight loss scams.
- [47:42]
Matt Lieb
God. Yeah, I'm just talking about. I'm just asking the question.
- [47:48]
Robert Evans
We have to have conversations about this. You know, a conversation would be noting, for example, green coffee extract causes bone density loss and perhaps be worried. That's a conversation. Well, you and I have had about these things as a conversation.
- [48:04]
Matt Lieb
I love. People are like, I'm just asking the question.
- [48:07]
Robert Evans
And I'm not a doctor. I'm a guy who's addicted to an unregulated plant.
- [48:15]
Matt Lieb
Oh, my God.
- [48:16]
Robert Evans
Which I just took more of while standing next to my unregulated gun.
- [48:20]
Matt Lieb
Yeah, dude, you are living the unregulated dream right now.
- [48:26]
Robert Evans
So Dr. Oz, also making this statement, pointed out that he believed the greatest disservice he'd done to his audience was to not recommend specific products which had provided room for a wide industry of shysters to stick his name on their website. So, like, oh, I was just saying green coffee extract and a bunch of companies I couldn't verify started selling it with my name on it. I should have recommended a specific brand.
- [48:50]
Matt Lieb
Yeah. What I need to do is cut deals with specific companies so that you can only be taking their bone density loss drugs.
- [49:00]
Robert Evans
Yeah. I mean, exactly.
- [49:02]
Matt Lieb
Good call.
- [49:03]
Robert Evans
Fucking amazing.
- [49:04]
Matt Lieb
Yeah.
- [49:05]
Robert Evans
So in the wake of this day on Capitol Hill and this amazing response, physicians across the country asked Columbia University in a letter, basically, what the fuck? Why is this guy still on your faculty? Columbia claimed it was because of their commitment to quote the principle of academic freedom and to upholding faculty members freedom of expression for statements they make in public discussion.
- [49:27]
Matt Lieb
Hell yeah, dude. That's like fucking rad. Yeah. Of the, like, anti cancel culture letter. You know, they're just like, stop trying to cancel Dr. Oz. It's freedom of speech.
- [49:38]
Robert Evans
You have freedom of speech. I mean, doctors also are held to different standards than the rest of us.
- [49:43]
Matt Lieb
They take an oath. Come on.
- [49:46]
Robert Evans
If, like, your Uncle Jimbo says, hey, you know, take some green coffee extract. It'll help you lose weight.
- [49:52]
Matt Lieb
Yeah.
- [49:52]
Robert Evans
Nothing wrong with that. It might not be good advice, but that's just a guy saying a thing. Doctors are held to a different standard.
- [50:00]
Matt Lieb
Yeah, it's on you. If you listen to your crazy Uncle Jimbo, it is definitely on the doctor. If he recommends you lose some bone density so that you look better in that dress.
- [50:11]
Robert Evans
Mm. It's. It's. It's fucked up. It's Fucked up. So on April 15, 2015, 10 prominent physicians sent a letter to Columbia University calling Oz's faculty position there unacceptable, inciting his, quote, egregious lack of integrity. The only change wrought by the congressional inquiry and the flood of condemnation from the medical community seems to be that Dr. Oz started endorsing specific supplements in pseudomedicines.
- [50:39]
Matt Lieb
God, he's Alex jonesing it.
- [50:41]
Robert Evans
He's jonesing it hard. He's so much smarter than Alex, though. Yeah, you focus it just on the health. None of this nonsense like political shit. Everybody's gonna love you and you'll make way more money. Yeah. A 2018 analysis of his show by the Health News Review found, quote, in the Dr. Oz show, 13 out of 1960, 8.4% shows had ads relating to general show content. 57.9% had specific products mentioned by the host using their commercial name. And 36.3% of shows mentioning products by name named more than one product. And also found that 78% of the medical statements made on the Dr. Oz show did not align with, quote, evidence based medical guidelines.
- [51:29]
Matt Lieb
So if those guidelines mattered, they'd make more money. Dog.
- [51:33]
Robert Evans
Half a decade earlier, 46% of his statements are more or less fine. Now it's down to what, Jesus? 22%. Wow. So we're seeing again, he mad the quality of the. Because again, you're running out of good content. You only have so much good medical advice you can give when you're doing an hour a day, 175 times a year for fucking 15, 16 years.
- [51:59]
Matt Lieb
Eat fruit.
- [52:00]
Robert Evans
Exactly. The actual amount of things that an average person can reasonably do to improve their own physical health doesn't really take that long to explain to you. It's pretty simple stuff and most of us know a lot of it already. We know when we're. I know that pounding Kratom and Coke Zero isn't a wise healthcare decision.
- [52:19]
Matt Lieb
No, no, but you know it. And you can, you know, fucking. You don't need a Dr. Oz to tell you that. You know, you just.
- [52:26]
Robert Evans
No, you know, I know that the fact that I bought the hundred dollar entire smoked leg of pig from Costco, a giant prosciutto leg that you can. I know, I know. Buying that and not also purchasing, I don't know, salad in order to have sufficient fibromyalgia. Smoked kale, I recognize that was the poor health decision.
- [52:49]
Matt Lieb
Yeah, yeah.
- [52:50]
Robert Evans
No one tricked me about this. And at no point did I think this hundred dollars worth of smoked ham is a solid healthcare move. You know, it's smoked.
- [52:59]
Matt Lieb
What could be so bad with smoked?
- [53:01]
Robert Evans
It's smoked. It's good for my Q zone. Traditional medicine.
- [53:05]
Matt Lieb
Yeah. This is really good for all of my kidney meridians. I need all the smoked hams I can get.
- [53:10]
Robert Evans
All my meridians are fucking rocking right now.
- [53:13]
Matt Lieb
I am peaking in meridians, bro.
- [53:16]
Robert Evans
Let me fucking tell you, my meridians are as hard as a goddamn rock.
- [53:20]
Matt Lieb
Feel my kidneys. Feel my kidneys. It's just like, why is your kidney swollen?
- [53:26]
Robert Evans
The Dr. Oz show is still on the air. In 2018, President Trump appointed Dr. Oz to a council on sports, fitness and nutrition as part of the Department of Health and Human Services. He is still on that council under Joe Biden. Bipartisan baby. Two years later. Oh, no politician is dumb enough to want to piss off Dr. Oz. You're never going to hear Joe Biden throw it. Well, except for Claire McCaskill, God bless her.
- [53:53]
Matt Lieb
She was the only one who had the guts to stand up to Dr. Oz.
- [53:57]
Robert Evans
I think other people did. I'm not an expert on what went down in that congressional thing, but she seems to be the main one who was really angry at him, which. Good on you, Claire.
- [54:06]
Matt Lieb
I love that a bipartisan decision is just like, let's share this grifter between administrations. Like, good. You know what? Gotta lie.
- [54:16]
Robert Evans
We all agree that you should be able to lie about healthcare as an MD. So 2018 is when he gets appointed to this council. Two years later, during the COVID 19 pandemic, he endorsed hydroxychloroquine. Later that year, he endorsed reopening schools, saying, I tell you, schools are a very appetizing opportunity. I just saw a nice piece in the Lancet arguing the opening of schools may only cost us 2 to 3% in terms of total mortality.
- [54:44]
Matt Lieb
What the fuck?
- [54:45]
Robert Evans
Such 2 to 3% of the crime. That's barely anybody dying. That's barely hundreds of thousands of deaths.
- [54:51]
Matt Lieb
He said 2 to 3%. As if that's not a huge number of people. He's losing his goddamn mind.
- [54:57]
Robert Evans
And it's one of those things not making a point. Pro or against gun control, either way. But if somebody against gun control said, what? Keeping these things legal is only going to cost us 1% of the country, you'd be like, you're a fucking maniac. You are a dangerous person, man. But he's like, we gotta. And he didn't. Yeah, this outraged a lot of people. And Oz apologized as he apologized for boxing Hydroxychloroquine. Yeah, he oopsy. Daisied it. He Claimed regret that his comments had confused and upset people and basically pointed out the Lancet wasn't saying 2 to 3% of the country was going to die. It was, I think more like 2, 3% of like, would get sick. And like, it was he. But the way he phrased it was it's only going to cost us 2 to 3% of the country. I don't care what the actual study. Again, I don't care what the study is. I care what you said to your audience of millions. And also I care about the fact that in any case, that's fucking evil. Yeah, like, that's an evil thing to say.
- [55:59]
Matt Lieb
Yeah, it's pretty wild to just look at 2 to 3% of the country as, like, expendable if it means that my fucking dirtbag ass fifth grader can be stuck inside in a school all day. And listen, I get it. People with kids, they want their kids to go back to school. But you don't say the quiet part out loud, you know?
- [56:19]
Robert Evans
Yeah, it's one thing to say, hey, look, living in a society, there's all kinds of cost benefit sort of analysis we have to do. Like, right, cars improve a lot of efficiencies in certain ways and people, like, have them. They're also going to cost X many lives. You know, we could change these sorts of laws, but it would lead to this sort of problem. You know, we have certain freedoms that may cost lives and like.
- [56:43]
Matt Lieb
Right.
- [56:44]
Robert Evans
To be like, that's just living in a society. Right. There's no. Our society is not angled around absolutely reducing mortality in every way. And there's a cost to not having these schools open. And it's a very real cost. And like, we have to, like, that's a way to say that. I'm not saying that's the argument I'm making because I'm not. I'm thinking, no, no, I don't think we should open schools out until we actually have, I don't know, like 80% of the fucking country vaccinated or whatever.
- [57:07]
Matt Lieb
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [57:08]
Robert Evans
But like, but that's a way you could, that's a way you could make that argument and not sound like a gibbering sociopath.
- [57:16]
Matt Lieb
And it's weird to like, you know, be like, all right, it was a poor choice of words. And it's like, bro, at this point, saying words out loud to millions of people is your job.
- [57:25]
Robert Evans
Yeah. You're choosing to do the job. You could never work another day in your life and you would never. You're rich. You don't need to do this. You're choosing to, so go fuck yourself with that explanation.
- [57:37]
Matt Lieb
Just fucking fix some hearts already. Stop talking.
- [57:41]
Robert Evans
We're getting to that. So today Dr. Oz works to continue to monetize his brand with his wife and business partner, who he also writes books with. His daughter seems to be getting in on the Griff too with books like the Dorm Room Diet, which she wrote when she was in college.
- [57:54]
Matt Lieb
I think the Dorm Room Diet, it's just free pizza and dick.
- [57:59]
Robert Evans
The Dorm Room Diet. Hey, you know if you pour coffee into instant ramen, right?
- [58:04]
Matt Lieb
Exactly.
- [58:05]
Robert Evans
Instead of two birds. Breakfast. Breakfast. I've done that, by the way. Not probably kind of proud of it. It's real good. If you add in vodka, he is worth tens of millions of dollars and is not in any danger of being worth less any time soon. We've talked a lot about the harms of his specific recommendations and the disinformation he spreads. But at the end of this all, I keep coming back to that 2010 New York Times article, specifically its end when I think about what may be his worst crime against medicine. On the stairs at Columbia Presbyterian, apropos of nothing, he began talking about certain Japanese, Sardinian and Costa Rican populations that live unusually long and said that their shared trait was activity, activity, activity. His first column for Time magazine, Living Long and Living well, ran in a section called how to live 100 years. At another point in his Rockefeller center office, he said that so many people thrill to being on television because there's an element of eternity to it. You are storing you. You are taking your life force for that brief moment when you're on camera and you're storing that for all eternity, which makes you someone who will never truly die. That is a fucking bonkers way of looking at being on tv.
- [59:20]
Matt Lieb
Holy shit.
- [59:22]
Robert Evans
That is out of its goddamn mind.
- [59:26]
Matt Lieb
He's literally one year away from wanting to be buried with his cats. You know, like this dude wants some pyramids and some live cats in a casket with him. This is. He's a pharaoh.
- [59:39]
Robert Evans
Yeah, I'm going to continue the quote. And he described his own investment in television by saying, I've always felt that when I looked at my tombstone, it shouldn't say, Mehmet oz banged out 10,000 Open Heart operations. I've probably done 5,000. Am I any better at it than 10,000? He shook his head. It's just a different number on a tombstone. No, it's not. It's 5,000 other people whose lives you extended.
- [60:04]
Matt Lieb
Actual human beings.
- [60:05]
Robert Evans
Those are human Beings. It's not about like your. How better at. You're already great at it. It's about saving additional lives.
- [60:14]
Matt Lieb
My God. That it's. That's wild.
- [60:17]
Robert Evans
One of the. He has dramatically. He still does perform surgery I think sometimes. He certainly was in the late aughts because he's a doctor. He just doesn't do nearly as much. He used to do a lot more and he's cut it by more than half the amount of actual heart.
- [60:32]
Matt Lieb
And it's the one thing he's good at. I mean I almost.
- [60:34]
Robert Evans
And he's amazing at. So one of the things that I should note here is that right now, even with the assumption that every available training position for cardiothoracic surgeons is filled, we are looking at a projected shortage of 1500 cardiothoracic surgeons or 25% of the workforce by 2025. 4 years. There is a desperate need for the thing that he's definitely one of the best in the world at a tremendous and terrible need for it. And he has stopped doing that in order to give people bad medical advice that will hurt some of them on tv. And I want to be really clear here. I am not saying that just because you become a cardiothoracic surgeon you have to do that until the day you drop. You don't. You can quit. I. You can. And that's not immoral. It's not evil to be like, I've done enough. A good friend of mine was a cardiologist for 30 something years and quit to travel around the world as a photojournalist. And I don't think there's anything immoral. You do not owe the world.
- [61:35]
Matt Lieb
Yeah.
- [61:35]
Robert Evans
Doing just because it's valuable and there are enough people doing it forever. I am not. And you don't have to quit to do some other valuable job. You can just quit to enjoy your life, be with your family. I'm not saying that.
- [61:45]
Matt Lieb
Yeah.
- [61:46]
Robert Evans
But he didn't quit to be with his family. He quit to give people bad health advice.
- [61:52]
Matt Lieb
He quit to do crimes.
- [61:54]
Robert Evans
Yeah. He is doing something that should be illegal instead of performing an additional 5,000 life saving surgeries.
- [62:00]
Matt Lieb
Right. Yeah.
- [62:01]
Robert Evans
That's evil.
- [62:02]
Matt Lieb
Yeah. No, that is bad. That is definitely immoral. To like have the ability. It's like being Superman and having the ability to save someone from a burning building but being like, fuck, dude, I'm kind of on my way to do this TV interview. That's gonna get me more insane. Yeah.
- [62:20]
Robert Evans
But I'm gonna sell people pills instead. Lex Luthor can suck it you know, I got pills to move. And the way that he phrases that is incredibly telling. Right. Like, it shouldn't say, mehmet oz banged out 10,000 open heart operations. Am I any better at it than 10,000? It's like, that's not. I care that you get better at it to the extent that it improves patient outcome, but, like, I don't care. Like, the thing that's good about performing 10,000 Open Heart operations is presumably somewhere near 10,000 people have had their lives extended because of you. Right?
- [62:51]
Matt Lieb
Yeah.
- [62:52]
Robert Evans
And that's amazing. That's tens of thousands of cumulative, cumulative years you've added to the lives of people who are loved and who do things themselves, who, who do incredible. Like, who have their own ways of contributing to society, who have children.
- [63:06]
Matt Lieb
Like, it's such a sick way of looking at it too, because it's like, I'm already really good at it.
- [63:13]
Robert Evans
So I decided I want to go get into tv. Now. If he'd been like, I, you know, I did my car, I performed 5,000 surgeries, now I want to become an actor. Like, fine, you have that right. Absolutely. I'm never going to say that's.
- [63:26]
Matt Lieb
I mean, it depends on the movie, but yeah, yeah, sure, yeah.
- [63:28]
Robert Evans
If you're in Michael Bay movies, we might have another talk. Exactly.
- [63:31]
Matt Lieb
Yeah.
- [63:31]
Robert Evans
But that's again, what. It's not that he's decided he wanted to go into tv. It's not that he decided to go into entertainment. It's that he decided to do a job. To go from doing a job where he was unequivocally saving lives to doing a job where he often gives people advice that could shorten or at least reduce the quality of their life.
- [63:49]
Matt Lieb
I mean, I guess he got tired of helping people and was like, you.
- [63:53]
Robert Evans
Know, time to make some fucking bank.
- [63:55]
Matt Lieb
Yeah, it's time. I mean, it's not just make some bank, but he's like, man, I saved 10,000 lives. I'm gonna have to kill 10,000 just to fucking net neutral this shit, you know? You know, he's just trying to, he's trying to balance the scales of his good and evil.
- [64:11]
Robert Evans
It's so fucking frustrating. I really dislike this man.
- [64:17]
Matt Lieb
Yeah, he's so handsome, though, dude.
- [64:19]
Robert Evans
I mean, very handsome.
- [64:21]
Matt Lieb
He's very handsome. He made a lot of money. So that's good.
- [64:25]
Robert Evans
That is.
- [64:25]
Matt Lieb
And you know, he's, he's, he's out there every day given, given hope to people who are currently dying of a very, very treatable ailment and saying, no, dog, put your Feet in some hot rice.
- [64:38]
Robert Evans
Put your feet in some hot rice.
- [64:40]
Matt Lieb
And see what happens, dude. Just see what happens, you know, like someone's gotta be doing that job.
- [64:46]
Robert Evans
It's this fucking thing. Part of the Dr. Oz problem and the part of it that he is leaning into, but it's not his fault, is this thing. That's a broader problem that I've gotten trapped in, that everyone who's a public figure is at risk of getting trapped in, which is the fact that if you're good at something and also have some measure of fame or popularity, you start to think you can extend your skills to everything. I was in the gym the other day. Since I'm in Texas with my family and since I'm vaccinated and everyone wears a mask, but I've been going to a gym and my family's vaccinated. It's the thing we get to do now. Okay.
- [65:25]
Matt Lieb
Yeah, you're allowed.
- [65:26]
Robert Evans
Yeah. I've been going to a gym and the gyms have news programs on. Right. And I saw Dr. Oz on and it was Dr. Oz True Crime. Because I guess Dr. Oz has added a true crime thing where he's like talking about this woman who murdered her kids and interviewing the ex wife of the husband of the woman who murdered her kids and doing this thing. You don't have any. Why are you doing this? Because it's popular with the same people who like your show. And why not? Why not stick your hand into this thing that is deeply painful for a lot of people and make money off of it? Why not do it? Because if you're famous and good at one thing, there's no reason not to do absolutely everything. Ie. I just hate it.
- [66:12]
Matt Lieb
Yeah. Especially since it's again, he has the God given skills to actually do good and help people and he chooses this shit. And I gotta say, I blame his dad. I blame his dad.
- [66:28]
Robert Evans
I blame his dad too. Fuck you, Mustafa.
- [66:31]
Matt Lieb
Yeah.
- [66:31]
Robert Evans
Son of a bitch.
- [66:33]
Matt Lieb
You fucked up, dude. I mean, you did a great job by pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and yada yada, but, you know, maybe you should have. Maybe you should have maybe been more encouraging for him to just maybe, you know, pick one thing and stay with it rather than, you know, venture off into television. I will say, at least with the true crime stuff that, like, I know he's like, he's a little bit kind of like getting into kind of our territory here with the podcast business and I don't like that, but I'm glad I don't have a true crime podcast that he's currently cannibalizing. If he starts a Sopranos one, I will lose my fucking mind. If Dr. Oz decides one day, like, I want to do a prestige TV rewatch show for cnn. That'll be it, dude. Oz, you'll be on my goddamn list.
- [67:22]
Unknown
I don't think his podcast publishes anymore. The one that he was doing, I don't see any new episodes past 2019.
- [67:30]
Matt Lieb
Well, I mean, he's doing a true crime show. That's. That's as close as you get to that, to the podcast business.
- [67:36]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [67:37]
Matt Lieb
You know what I'm saying? Those are the number one pods out there, dude.
- [67:42]
Robert Evans
Pisses me off, my pods. All right, guys, that's the episode.
- [67:52]
Unknown
Any plugs? Yeah, plug the plugs.
- [67:57]
Matt Lieb
My name is Matt Lieb, and, you know, I'm on Instagram. Matt Lieb jokes.
- [68:01]
Robert Evans
The Gram.
- [68:02]
Matt Lieb
Yeah, I'm on the Gram. I'm also on Twitter at Matt Leeb, but go follow me on Instagram and. Yeah, and if you like the Sopranos, pod yourself a gun.
- [68:12]
Robert Evans
Hod yourself a gun, baby. Well, get out there and again, find Dr. Oz in the street. And, Sophie, what is the legal definition of incitement?
- [68:25]
Unknown
I'm not. For legal reasons, I'm not going to answer that question.
- [68:29]
Robert Evans
All right, well, just go out and wander the streets angry and agitated. Yeah. So without any clear goal.
- [68:42]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [68:43]
Robert Evans
Angrily wander the streets agitated with an unclear goal. That's what I want all of my listeners to do.
- [69:03]
Narrator
From audio up, the creators of Stephen King, Strawberry, Spring Comes the Unborn. A shocking true story.
- [69:10]
Robert Evans
My babies. Please. My babies.
- [69:13]
Narrator
One woman, two lives and a secret she would kill to protect.
- [69:17]
Sophie
She went crazy, shot and killed all her farm animals, slaughtered them in front of the kids, tried to burn their house down.
- [69:26]
Narrator
Listen to the unborn on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [69:33]
Sloan Glass
Sometimes where a crime took place leads you to answer why the crime happened in the first place. Hi, I'm Sloan Glass, host of the new true crime podcast American Homicide. In this series, we'll examine some of the country's most infamous and mysterious murders and learn how the location of the crime becomes a character in the story. Listen to American homicide on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.