Part Three: How Lawrence of Arabia Invented Modern War

Summary

Behind the Bastards: T.E. Lawrence – The Complex Legacy of a Desert Rebel

Release Date: November 19, 2024
Hosts: A and B
Produced by: Cool Zone Media and iHeartPodcasts

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I. Introduction to the Episode

In this episode of Behind the Bastards, Hosts A and B delve deep into the life and legacy of T.E. Lawrence, famously known as Lawrence of Arabia. The discussion navigates through his pivotal role in World War I, his strategic brilliance in insurgent warfare, and the moral ambiguities that surround his actions and personal experiences.

II. T.E. Lawrence and the Battle of Aqaba

A initiates the conversation by highlighting the Battle of Aqaba, contrasting its historical accounts with its portrayal in popular media. He notes, "The movie just shows Lawrence and his guys riding in this glorious Rohirrim cavalry charge and they just smash the Turks. That's not at all what happens." [07:59] The actual battle, described as an impressive feat of insurgent warfare, involved Lawrence leading a small force that grew to about a thousand by recruiting local tribes. Instead of a dramatic charge, the battle was characterized by strategic ambushes and minimal casualties on Lawrence's side, with the Turks eventually being overwhelmed.

III. Sykes-Picot Agreement and Its Implications

The hosts transition to discussing the Sykes-Picot Agreement, an infamous pact between Britain and France to divide the Ottoman Empire's territories in the Middle East. A provides a critical analysis, stating, "Sykes Picot is kind of evidence of the ways in which the British and French are talking about carving up the Middle East." [15:42] This agreement laid the groundwork for modern Middle Eastern borders, fostering long-term instability and resentment among the local populations.

B adds context by describing the backgrounds of key figures involved, such as Sir Mark Sykes, emphasizing his role in orchestrating the division of Arab lands for European interests. The hosts criticize the imperialistic motives behind the agreement, highlighting its lasting negative impact on regional geopolitics.

IV. Lawrence's Tug-of-War with Morality and Strategy

A explores Lawrence's internal conflict regarding the promises made to the Arab tribes versus the imperialistic plans of his superiors. He quotes Lawrence's own words from Seven Pillars of Wisdom: "Hardly one day in Arabia passed without a physical ache to increase the corroding sense of my accessory deceitfulness towards the Arabs and the legitimate fatigue of responsible command." [44:42] This reflects Lawrence's awareness of the duplicity inherent in his role—balancing his support for Arab independence with the geopolitical agendas of the British Empire.

The hosts discuss Lawrence's strategic initiatives, such as his recon campaigns and the innovative concept of "scientific shattering" to destroy Ottoman infrastructure without complete demolition, thereby prolonging the enemy's efforts to rebuild ([36:53]). A praises Lawrence's ability to think outside conventional military doctrines, likening his insurgent tactics to naval warfare in their mobility and unpredictability.

V. The Controversy Surrounding Lawrence's Account of Torture and Rape

A significant portion of the episode delves into the contentious topic of whether Lawrence was gang-raped, as he claims in his writings. A recounts Lawrence's harrowing experience during his captivity: "He describes lengthily how he was beaten and tortured and then gang raped by the Governor and his guards in Seven Pillars." [60:11] This account has sparked debate among historians and biographers.

While some, like biographer James Barr, argue that Lawrence fabricated the story to discredit Arab militants ([61:26]), others, including John E. Mack, accept the authenticity of the account and its profound psychological impact on Lawrence ([63:12]). A navigates these conflicting perspectives, emphasizing the psychological toll such trauma would have on anyone, especially someone in Lawrence's tumultuous position.

VI. Conclusion: Evaluating Lawrence's Legacy

As the episode draws to a close, A and B reflect on Lawrence's multifaceted legacy. On one hand, he is lauded for his strategic genius and efforts to support Arab independence. On the other, his actions and the moral compromises he made under imperial directives paint a more complex and, at times, morally ambiguous picture.

A concludes, "This man is so fucked up," [65:03] encapsulating the intricate blend of brilliance and brutality that defines Lawrence's historical persona. The hosts acknowledge that while Lawrence's contributions to insurgent warfare and his role in shaping the Middle East are undeniable, the ethical and personal costs of his actions and experiences render his legacy profoundly complicated.

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Notable Quotes:

• A: "The movie just shows Lawrence and his guys riding in this glorious Rohirrim cavalry charge and they just smash the Turks. That's not at all what happens." [07:59]

• A: "Sykes Picot is kind of evidence of the ways in which the British and French are talking about carving up the Middle East." [15:42]

• A: "Hardly one day in Arabia passed without a physical ache to increase the corroding sense of my accessory deceitfulness towards the Arabs and the legitimate fatigue of responsible command." [44:42]

• A: "This man is so fucked up." [65:03]

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This episode of Behind the Bastards offers a nuanced exploration of T.E. Lawrence's life, balancing his strategic accomplishments with the moral dilemmas and personal traumas that shaped him. For listeners seeking a deep dive into the complexities of historical figures deemed as "bastards," this episode provides a compelling analysis that challenges simplistic interpretations.

Transcript

[A]

Cool Zone Media. Oh, what's. I don't even know. I don't even know. It's like three days before the election.

[B]

I had a milkshake.

[A]

Yeah. You look so happy when you were drinking it, though. Tired.

[B]

Oh, yeah. No, it's great.

[A]

Tired of everything. My. Everyone. I know. I'm wearing a hoodie. I'm wearing a hoodie, you guys. Oh, man. Good stuff. Good stuff. So how's. How's everyone doing? How were y'all feeling?

[B]

The aforementioned high on sugar?

[A]

Yeah, I'm great. I've worked out really hard today, so I'm a little sore. I worked out a bit. I need to finish after this. But you know who never works out, Margaret?

[B]

Colonialism. It never works out.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, that's true. And I mean, also, none of the people in this podcast episode work out anymore because they've all been dead for decades.

[B]

Yeah. Oh.

[A]

Cause we're talking about World War I. Yeah. There we go. That more or less worked.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts brought to you by State Farm. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. When we last left our friend Lawrence, he had just met Auda Abu Taiyi of the Howitat tribe. And Faisal and Auda had decided that with Lawrence's help, they were going to make an attack on the city of Aqaba from the north. Now this is kind of like the major central action scene, this beautiful in the movie. They shoot it as this absolutely gorgeous cavalry charge. And the gist of what's happening here is that Aqaba is this port city. It's got a bunch of guns that are trained on the sea. And after the disaster that had been Gallipoli, the British aren't really interested in trying to take this critical port city by a naval invasion because that just doesn't tend to work out very well for them in this period, right?

[B]

And so they have to call upon the riders of Rohan.

[A]

They do have to call upon the riders of Rohan. And the reason why this has a chance of working is that Lawrence is going to kind of Lawrence's idea that he and there's some debate here as to who specifically decided to attack Aqaba. But Lawrence seems to be the one who was like, I can take instead of marching in from either of the sides, they expect the kind of back of this city is to this vast desert that is considered impassable because like, how would you get a bunch of guys on foot across this? Right? Like it's just absolutely some of the deadliest terrain on planet Earth. And Lawrence is like, if we get a small force, you know, we can take this tiny gorilla and it's literally just a few dozen guys across this vast desert and then cross into the portion of Syria where the Howatat keep their spring pastures, and we can find all of the people who live in this area, rally them to our BO banner and attack Aqaba. According to Lawrence, when he broached this plan to Auda, Auda's response was also.

[B]

Where was our Gondor?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Where was Gondor when the Westfold fell? No. Although he does give, like, I would say, an equally cool response to anything. In the Lord of the Rings, he says, all things are possible with dynamite and English gold. That's an eternal trut. Enough dynamite and English gold, I feel like I could do anything, too. Yeah.

[B]

Hell, yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Now, this is. You know, there's a bit of debate here as to, like, the extent to which Lawrence was kind of central to all the planning here. In 2014, Iraqi historian Ali Alawi published a biography of Faisal, who, after the Great Arab Revolt, went on to be the first king of Iraq. His reappraisal of Faisal suggests that Lawrence was not the one to suggest Akaba as a location to attack and that Feisal made that call on his own. Now, I kind of feel like the fact that Lawrence gets credit for coming up with the idea of going after Acaba in the first place is less Lawrence's fault and more sort of the fault of that Peter O'Toole movie. Because I went through Seven Pillars of Wisdom and I read the portions of the book which discuss Aqaba, and there aren't a whole lot. There's not a whole lot of Aqaba talk in the book. Not a whole lot of Aqaba. And it does not seem like what's in there from what's in there. I know I had to do it. I had to do it. Insufferable. It doesn't seem like, to me like Lawrence was taking credit for the idea itself just to attack the city. In fact, he notes that Feisal was unable to participate in the attack which, quote, threw the ungrateful load of this Northern expedition upon myself. Which sounds like he's saying it was not my idea, but Feisal had to stay at his base for this, so I had to handle the implementation. Right, okay. And he describes the fact that, like, he had to be the one on the ground doing it as leading to a dishonest implication, which I interpret as him being kind of uncomfortable with being given credit for dreaming up and executing the whole campaign, which is kind of.

[B]

One of the biggest problems with him in general.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Is how people, like, view him as, like, the one white guy who saved everyone or whatever.

[A]

Right, Right. Which is. I mean, and I hope it's hard in a podcast episode focused on Lawrence because there's so many people involved on every side of this to not have it seem like you are. I mean, and he does play a central role, but he's also not the only shot caller. He's not the only shotgun. He's certainly not the major shot caller on the British side either. Right. Like, General Allenby up in Palestine is making a lot of calls and making a lot of direction. Faisal is a major player here. And I think actually seven Pillars gives a pretty fair accounting of how that all actually worked out. And despite how central Acaba is to the movie, the actual battle, the capture of the city, only merits a couple of sentences in really just a sentence, because all he writes about it in the book is, we tricked the Turks and entered Aqaba with good fortune. Right. Which is not like, to be blown up into the absolute, like, center of this, like, four hour epic movie. Very funny.

[B]

Is this. Now, they didn't do this with 36 guys. They did this by. The 36 guys went and got allies.

[A]

And got other guys. Right? Yeah, it was the 36 or so. I think it was like 45 or whatever that cross the desert. And this is an amazing feat. It's like one of the most impressive feats of insurgent warfare because they cross this massive, absolutely merciless desert with just literally nothing but what they are able to carry on them with their camels. Lawrence and 45 men and each of his fighters, all they have on them is a 45 pound sack of flour and all of the water they can carry. That's all they have with them to keep them alive.

[B]

Prefer heroes.

[A]

Just a hero. Huge sack of flour. Well, it won't go bad, you know, not in the time that you're out there. And I guess, like, yeah, that's all you got. Flour and water to keep you moving.

[B]

I mean, sometimes raw calories will do. She said high on sugar.

[A]

Yeah, no, that's. It's completely changed my prepping loadout. All I keep in my truck is 90 pounds of flour and a bunch of water.

[B]

Yeah. And the camel trailer was a good touch.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do have a camel.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's miserable here. Horrible. Place to have a camel. They do not do well in the Pacific Northwest.

[B]

It's like huskies in New Orleans.

[A]

Yeah. I think a big part of, like, why Aqaba gets so, so much focus is that it is kind of the first time Lawrence becomes a celebrity. Because at the time in which they successfully take Aqaba, the Brits are kind of hungry for a win. The Western Front is mostly bad. Like, even the good news is really bad news. Gallipoli was this catastrophe. And so the fact that like, this is they're going to take this strategically important city from the Turks quite easily is a big deal. So after two hideous months, it takes them two months to cross the desert. Like, that's how long they're living off of this sack of flour.

[B]

It's a big desert.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Uh huh.

[A]

That's a huge desert. Yeah. Like, this is an incredible feat. Yeah. Lawrence and his guys reach the outskirts of Aqaba and by the time they get to the city itself, their numbers have grown to about a thousand. They recruit all these guys from the local tribes in the area. And the Turks, who were slightly more competent in real life than in the movies. The movie just shows Lawrence and his guys riding in this glorious Rohirrim cavalry charge and they just smash the Turks. That's not at all what happens. They don't even actually fight in Aqaba. What happens is the Turks send a 550 man relief force to bolster Aqaba's defense. And before they can get to the city, Lawrence and his cavalry fall upon them in ambush, 40 or so miles north of the city in a place named Wadi Aba Alisan. And this battle, there's like a kind of funny clown shit moment in it. It starts with this again, very Lord of the Rings shit. There's this argument between Lawrence and, I think it's Auda about who's going to attack where first. And finally Audit and his guys charge in on one side and so Lawrence is like, fuck, we have to charge in on the other. Just go, just go, just go. We can't let them beat us to there. And then as they're running, Lawrence is just like, like emptying his pistol, like while charging on camelback and he shoots his camel in the head. Oh God. Auda loses his camel too. Out of, has like 14 bullet holes in his gear when this battle ends. And I don't think any of them actually hit his body. Like, this guy is just like a fucking Tolkien character.

[B]

Yeah, he's got plot armor.

[A]

He's got plot armor. Yes, he's the main character.

[B]

Hell, yeah.

[A]

So as much of a shit show as that kind of sounds like the battle goes incredibly well. They kill, like, 300 something Turkish soldiers. Absolutely. Destroy this entire force and Lawrence lose. Lawrence and Ouda lose two men.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah. Which is like. That's a big dub. That's about as well as a battle could go.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that's part of why this becomes so famous, you know, overseas is like, wow, what a fucking. What a fucking coup.

[B]

Now, I hope it was a different camel than the one that took him all the way across the desert. I hope you, like, switched to a battle camel.

[A]

Yeah. Aragorn, like, charging at the fucking Battle of Pelennor Fields and accidentally cuts fucking horse's head off.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Gandalf blasts a lightning bolt. The shadow facts. Yeah. The king of horses just tumbling as they hit the orc lines. I do also like to imagine that in, like, Aragorn's version of Seven Pillars of Wisdom, like, the whole battle of Helm's Deep is just the orcs attacked us at Helm's Deep and we won.

[B]

Yeah, totally. We figured it out.

[A]

We figured it out. It was fine. Our friends came. Yeah.

[B]

Well, that is kind of like. Because Gandalf goes off to get help, Right? And so he's just like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He is the equivalent of him going through the desert anyway.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Now, a big part of why Lawrence had been so motivated to take Aqaba because, like, there was debate, you know, should we. Should the French help us out with this? Are the British going to, like, you know, attempt some sort of, like, landing? Lawrence doesn't want any Europeans in the city because at this point, there's a lot of debate. We don't really know when he became aware of the Sykes Picot agreement, which we're going to talk about and explain here. But that's basically the British French agreement that, like, split up the Middle east under their spheres of influence. Right. We don't know when Lawrence knew about it, but the actual answer is probably that doesn't really matter because he was aware of the debate around what became Sykes Picot right from pretty much the beginning. So maybe he didn't know until late November 1917 when it got leaked out that this specific agreement had been signed. But he knew that his leaders and the French were talking about carving up the Arab world and he didn't want that to happen. Right. He was okay with the idea of the British having a sphere of influence in the Arab world. He didn't want the French because, again, the French, the genocide and stuff, he was not happy with them. And in general, he feels there's this guilt that he's got this whole time with the idea that I am fighting for Arab independence. And I'm pretty sure my side is going to betray these people, that we're not going to live up to our promises. So a big part of why he wants to take Aqaba and he wants the Arabs to take Aqaba is the more cities that they are in military control of when this thing ends, the better their odds of keeping those cities under their control. Right. Like, if the British or the French occupy Aqaba, there's no getting them out. You know, like, they're not going to leave. Right. They're going to set us apart.

[B]

So, yeah, you have to do some terrorism in order to get the British or the French to leave.

[A]

Whereas, you know, if the Arabs are running Aqaba, like, they're running Mecca and then the French are like, okay, well, we're going to come in there. It's a lot easier to be like, well, no, we already. We already have this set up. We're good. Yeah.

[B]

What a mindfuck for Lawrence, because. Yeah. I mean, like, at least this version of him that's being presented, which makes sense to me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. He wants what's best, but he's, like, working within a flawed system. And he knows that not just a flawed system, but an evil system.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And he's like, oh, this is going to go badly.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But still being like, well, that's better than letting the Turks.

[A]

What else am I going to do?

[B]

Complicated.

[A]

He is in a very complicated situation, and there's a lot to say about. He is kind of lying to all of these Arab guys that he claims to love and consider brothers. Right. He is not telling them the full truth, but he is also lying and actively kind of betraying England, like, in a way, because he's actively trying to. Like, he's not telling his superior officers. He doesn't tell them that he's planning to even attack Aqaba this way. Right. Like, they don't find out until the city gets taken because he doesn't want them to make a move that would put them in the city. Right. So he is kind of. He's kind of. I mean, he's. He's. The situation he's in, he's kind of fucking over everyone to some extent.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I think he is overall trying to. Trying to secure what he sees as a good outcome for the Arabs. Right. Yeah. Again, doing the paternalistic thing of he's not going to tell them necessarily. He does. There's some. There's some evidence that he eventually does kind of, that he does talk, like, come out about some of this to, like, Faisal, but it's all very murky. Right. Like, again, this is skulduggery and spycraft.

[B]

I mean, I want the 16 year old to have been secretly planning the whole thing.

[A]

Right, Right. Yeah. Unfortunately, we don't get a happy story ending for Dome.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah, it's a bummer. So the British government spins the battle of Aqaba into this, like, massive thing for them because they really needed the good propaganda. And when they start doing this, Lawrence, he's got this keen, instinctive understanding of the moment that he inhabited. One of the things that makes him, like, such a. Such an incredible figure here is that he has an understanding not just of all these dynamics of insurgent warfare, but of how propaganda plays into insurgent warfare and plays into actually securing victory here. And he knows that now that the British are invested in his success because they need these wins. This is my best chance to get them, to force them to deliver guns and support for my Arab allies, which will allow them to take and hold more cities, which is going to give them the best odds of winning a state of their own and not just being cut apart by the great powers. So, again, Lawrence is kind of aware of the broad stripes strokes of Sykes Picot. And to be clear, Sykes Picot never actually gets instituted. When we talk about the significance, it's not because they actually do Sykes Picot. It's because Sykes Picot is an evidence of the ways in which the British and French are talking about carving up the Middle East. And what finally gets done looks a lot like what Sykes Picot was planned to be. Right? But it's not exactly the same thing, just to be clear here, because actual scholars would be like, well, they never really did Sykes Picot. It's just what happened was very similar. And it's evidence that this is how they'd been talking. Right. For a long time. So at this point, the Brits are still reeling from several failed assaults on Jerusalem, where the Turks had beaten them back, and established a dusty desert version of the trench stalemate on the Western Front. A general named George Allenby was brought in to clean up the mess. And Allenby is more competent than most British generals, we'll say that, right? Like, not that he's got a spotless record here, but he's definitely, like, better than the guys who had been doing this before, and Lawrence knew that, you know, once Allenby comes in as the only British officer with a major victory behind him, he was in a position to get a lot out of his new boss. So he travels to where Allenby is, and I think, I think Allenby's in Palestine at this point and he sits down with his boss to get Allenby to send guns to his men. Lawrence's motivation here, according to Scott Anderson, was to sell Allenby the World War I general equivalent of heroin, which is a promise that he can break a stalemated front. Right? Lawrence is like, I can stop the Turks from getting relief forces from Medina up to, I think, Jerusalem. And I can, I can also, like, basically ensure that you have as good a chance to break this stalemate as possible by carrying out my own offensive that pulls Turkish strength away, right?

[B]

Just give me the guns.

[A]

Just give me the guns. And here's how Anderson describes it. Lawrence vastly exaggerated both the strength and capability of those rebels already under arms to paint an enticing picture of a military juggernaut. The British advancing up the Palestine coast as the Arabs took the fight to the Syrian interior. Now, that's succinct and overall accurate, but Lawrence's own account of his meeting with Allenby and Seven Pillars is much more colorful. So I'm going to read that here because I, I just really like the guy's writing. It was a comic interview. For Allenby was physically large and confident and morally so great that the comprehension of our littleness came slow to him. He sat in his chair looking at me, not straight as his custom was, but sideways, puzzled. He was newly from France, where for years he had been a tooth of the great machine grinding the enemy. He was full of Western ideas of gunpowder and weight, the worst training for our war. But as a cavalryman was already half persuaded to throw up the new school in this different world of Asia and accompany Donnay and Chetwode along the worn road of maneuver and movement. Yet he was hardly prepared for anything so odd as myself. A little barefooted, silk skirted man offering to hobble the enemy by his preaching if given stores and arms and a fund of 200,000 sovereigns to convince and control his converts. Allenby could not make out how much was genuine performer and how much charlatan. The problem was working behind his eyes and I left him unhelped to solve it.

[B]

Wow. I left him unhelpful.

[A]

I fucking love the way he writes.

[B]

He's like, yeah, I was lying some. And it's up to him to figure it out. But I'm not.

[A]

He knew I was, but he didn't know how much. Not my job to figure that out for him. All right, anyway, you know what? I'm not going to leave you unhelped to do, Listener, is purchase the products and services that support this podcast.

[B]

I'm going to spend my money on gambling.

[A]

Yeah, that's where Lawrence would spend all of those sovereigns that really smart money.

[B]

Is always on gambling.

[A]

Yeah, gamble out with your hamble out. I don't know. Whatever. Fuck it. This podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp. November is all about gratitude. This is the month to think about the people who support you who have your back. That may include your therapist, but it should also include you. It could be hard to remember to be grateful to yourself with all of the difficulty and stress and trauma that we face on a daily basis just living our lives. So here's a reminder to be grateful to you. And one thing that being grateful to yourself can mean is considering therapy. If you've been in therapy, if you're considering therapy, you might consider giving BetterHelp a try. It's entirely online. It's designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and you can switch therapists at any time for no added charge. So let the gratitude flow with BetterHelp. 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[B]

Tee hee Lawrence.

[A]

Tee hee Lawrence. That's right, Tee. Because he's sneaky.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So his own ambitions are a lot more modest than what he's trying to sell Alan. Beyond. Right. He doesn't. He doesn't really, really believe. He knows the reality of the strength of his forces. And he wants all these guns to build a more disciplined insurgent movement that will be kind of the core of this Arab state. Right. And part of what he wants, like, he's kind of less focused on these big offensives that Allenby wants because he understands that the tactics, these Western front tactics, were not the way to win in the desert. So after Acaba, he embarks on yet another, like, historically significant recon campaign. He takes two men with him and alone against a vast desert. They travel like 1,000 miles or something like this massive journey, scouting out all of these Turkish positions. The whole operation was inspired by a recognition on Lawrence's part that thus far the war had involved haphazard playing with men in movements. And he saw that this had worked for them, but largely out of luck and vowed to know henceforth, before I moved, where I was going and by what roads, the perch of a delegator. This guy, he is not. He does a lot on his own. I think part of it is that he can't really make these plans unless he feels the ground beneath him. Right. That's just the kind of thinker he is. I think he just also likes it too.

[B]

Yeah, totally.

[A]

The purpose of this recon campaign was to help Lawrence figure out how to build what he called a ladder of tribes across Syria, eventually leading from Aqaba to Damascus. Describing this plan, James Schneider writes, the nature of the operations would be like naval war in mobility, ubiquity, independence of bases and communications, ignoring of ground features, of strategic areas, of fixed locations, of fixed points. Lawrence would command the desert camel raiding parties, self contained, like ships might cruise confidently along the enemy's cultivation frontier, sure of an UNHINDERED retreat into their desert element which the Turks could not explore. That's so interesting to me that he's thinking about this like a naval war. Each of these small insurgent squads is like a ship. Right. Independent, alone on the sea, you know? Yeah. It's so fluid. And you have to think the mind it takes to keep track of this as well as he does.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not that he doesn't fuck up. He's got after Acaba, there's a major defeat that he has kind of when he overstretches his forces. But for the most part, this is an extremely successful campaign. So during the ride into Aqaba, he had worked out exactly how far a unit of camel riders could operate with a 45 pound bag of flour and a pint of water. They could operate alone for like six weeks. Right. That's his assuming that.

[B]

I guess they're good at getting water somehow.

[A]

Yes, yes. They know where there are places to get water. And so these forces, these Elong.

[B]

Straw.

[A]

Yeah, Life straw. These tiny units of camel riders just powered by flour and water, have an operational range of 2,000 miles without resupply. Right. That's how far they can go. Yeah. It's fucking cool. And when you look at that range and you compare it to what an Ottoman company of infantry on foot can handle, which is like a couple of miles past the railway, you see what a nightmare he's created for the Ottomans with these little raiding parts.

[B]

Because they can be anywhere in this vast ocean.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It's like you are trying to fight a naval war with infantry treading in the water. Right. That's what the Turks are trying to do. I'm going to quote from Schneider again. Because of long standing feuds and jealousies, it became virtually impossible to integrate or amalgamate the various tribes. Nor could one antithetic tribe operate in the territory of another. To overcome this organizational constraint, Lawrence operated in the greatest dispersion possible, which contributed greatly to his agility, fluidity and mobility. Maximum disorganization created maximum articulation. As with a box of Legos, Lawrence could create any organization and function as unique as the new task at hand. For each mission was unlike any other and had to be considered afresh. The Lego like articulation meant that the enemy response could never develop a classic order of battle, for there was no order, only disorder. His system was unsystematic.

[B]

That's cool. One of the things I'm really obsessed with strategically is how chaotic forces can integrate into traditional war. And like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And How? Yeah, like, I think we see this in activism all the time, is people try to get all of these groups to be like, oh, if only they were all under one command. And you're like, you're not playing to your strengths at that point. Yeah, like, having diverse movements is stronger if you do it right.

[A]

Yeah. Because, I mean, because kind of the difficulty and the. The trouble with the kind of activists we know is you need this maximum articulation. Right. As Schneider describes it. But you also do need a vision, a central vision, because you have this ultimate disorganization, this incredibly flat hierarchy compared to the other militaries of the day. But you also have Lawrence at the center of this spider web pulling in each direction. Right. Like, making the actual, like, poles, which is very tough. There's not a lot of Lawrences out there. No, I do love that line. Maximum disorganization created, maximum articulation. I think there's a lot of wisdom in that. So a big part of why these forces work is that unlike the vast conscript armies of the Western Front, Lawrence's soldiers are all either believers or at least there willingly for the money. Right. Because some of these. Lawrence kind of. Lawrence talks them up. He has a line. Their only contract was honor, which is debatably true. Like, Auda, who we've been talking about, is going to make an approach to the Turks and be like, hey, if you bribe me, I'll switch sides. And he may have been considering switching sides, but he also just robs the Turkish guy with the money. But it's unclear because of when everyone else finds out what he's done. It's unclear. Was his plan from the beginning just to rob Turk, just to rob the Ottomans, or did he decide, well, I guess I'll just rob this guy once he got caught. Cause he didn't want to get, like, you know, murdered or whatever, Right? Like, was he actually trying to be turned traitor or did he just was his plan from the beginning. Hey, I bet these guys are dumb enough to send a bunch of money my way, and then I just have to kill the guy bringing it. I don't give a fuck. I am a sand pirate, you know?

[B]

Yeah, totally, totally. The honor among thieves question is always a fun one.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And Auda is not the kind of guy who gives a shit about your conceptions of honor. He has his own code, for sure, but I don't think anyone else really fully understands it. Lawrence wrote, quote, irregular war was far more intellectual than a bayonet charge. Far more exhausting. Than service and the comfortable imitative obedience of an ordered army. Guerrillas must be a loud, liberal work room in a regular war of two men together, one was being wasted. Our ideal should be to make our battle a series of single combats. Our ranks a happy alliance of agile commanders in chief.

[B]

Yeah. No, I like it.

[A]

I like that, too. So one of the key points here is that unlike most European officers in similar situations, Lawrence had not taken. I said he's taken nothing of Western military doctrine. That's not really true. He's taken some Western doctrine that is not popular with other people. Because that Austrian, De Sax is kind of someone who had been writing a lot of the same things. And Lawrence is very influenced by de sacs. But de Sax is certainly not influencing, like, British strategy at the Somme, you know.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Nothing but machine guns are really influencing that. Right. It's all these guys who want to be Hannibal but can't think of anything more creative than throwing their men into the teeth of a bunch of German guns. So what's interesting about Lawrence is that, you know, for all that he is an imperialist, he does not fall to the temptation of imposing British standards on these Bedouin fighters. His only thought is to give them modern English guns so that they can fight their way. And he's writing the whole time. He's got to try to. He's trying to argue to his superiors as to why this is how they should handle the whole Arab revolt. He writes a series of 27 articles meant for publication among British officers stationed in Arabia. Now, these are part propaganda. Some of what's in these. Is Lawrence lying about the strength of the Bedouins to make a case, you know, as to why they should be supported. But he also includes a lot of very good advice on how European officers should change their thinking to avoid bringing Western front problems to this new warzone. Like, he is trying to explain, like, why they ought to respect the Bedouin and how to respect the Bedouin, how to kind of let these people do what works. The next phase of the war sees Faisal's raiders launch this blizzard of attacks against Ottoman positions around the Hejaz Railway, destroying sections of track and bridges, but also things like watering holes that train operators relied upon for coolant. Lawrence again leads many of these raids from the front. He counted that during this period, he personally destroyed 79 bridges, which is. That's like hurricane level of bridge destruction. Lawrence has done.

[B]

Hurricane Lawrence.

[A]

Hurricane Lawrence, yeah. Lawrence often would set the charge himself, and he became something of an innovator in the Field of explosives by helping to develop this technique that he called scientific shattering. Now, the point of this, this is very interesting, was to ruin the bridge, making it unfit for transit, but to leave it standing. Right. And the logic here is that a standing bridge that's ruined can't just be repaired. First you have to destroy it before you can rebuild it. Whereas if you just blow it up, then all they have to do is clear records your way. Right?

[B]

Yeah. You've done half the work for them.

[A]

Right. This extends the time. If you fuck the bridge up scientifically, they have to spend even more time destroying it the rest of the way before they can rebuild it. Now, I know all of you listeners at home are taking notes. How do I scientifically shatter a bridge? I've never blown up a bridge yet, but I can read a quote from Lawrence's book to describe how he did it. Yet. What do you mean, yet? I haven't yet, Sophie. That's just a factual statement. I haven't destroyed any bridges yet. Console me before we do this.

[B]

I once was hitchhiking and into Louisville, Kentucky, and the trucker who picked me up was this older, I think, Vietnam vet. He's pretty quiet the whole drive. And he's like dropping us off in the middle of the night and he like does the trucker thing where he just like stops the entire. Like, when he wants to do something, he just stops the truck and all traffic just has to deal with it, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And before we get out, he turns to us and goes, you kids ever blown up a bridge?

[A]

Amazing stuff.

[B]

No, sir.

[A]

No, no. We're children. Yeah. So here's how Lawrence describes to blow up a bridge. Hastily we set about the bridge, a pleasant little work, 80ft long and 15ft high, honored with a shining slab of white marble bearing the name and titles of Sultan Abd el Hamid. In the drainage holes of the spandrel, six small charges were inserted zigzag, and with their explosion, all the arches were scientifically shattered. So there you go, guys. Put some dynamite in the drainage holes and let her rip. You know, now you can go take out bridges, which you shouldn't do, especially.

[B]

Not with someone that you meet at Food Not Bombs or some activist circle.

[A]

That'S going to go badly for everyone. Don't destroy any bridges unless you find yourself taking part in an Arab revolt against Ottoman power. If that's the case, if you get transported back in time to 1916 and you have to help the Bedouins fight for their independence from the Ottomans, then it's probably okay to blow up some.

[B]

Bridges or if it's your bridge, you know, or if it's your bridge, if.

[A]

You make a bridge, who's to stop you, right? Yeah, maybe someone owns a demolition company out there. There's lots of legal reasons to destroy a bridge. Right now the bulk of the insurgent work that Lawrence does in this period is done by Camelback. But for his own team of raiders, Lawrence is going to eventually settle on a different mode of transportation, which is the armored Rolls Royce cars. They are by the end of this like cruising around in Rolls Royces blowing up bridges, which is pretty gangster, right?

[B]

Is it the same level of like luxury car that it's seen as now?

[A]

No, I mean, I don't think so at this point. These are armored cars, so yeah. These sturdy vehicles allowed the nine man team that he preferred for commando work to carry hundreds of pounds of gun, cotton and explosives and move rapidly from target to target. While Lawrence was helping to execute a successful insurgency in the heart of Ottoman territory, the powers that be in the British Empire had started to see the light at the end of the tunnel. The Americans were almost to the Western front. And with the possibility of victory came the sweet prospect of carving up the Ottoman world for European consumption. If you spend literally any length of time talking to people in the Arab world today and asking them in brief, why is everything so fucked up? Every conversation will at some point circle back to Sykes Picot during the fighting against ISIS. I talked about Sykes Picot with like 12 year old boys, right? Like people know it over there. And it's the thing, I think a lot of Americans don't really know much about. It is, as one New Yorker article aptly described it, the curse that still haunts the Middle East. Now the first of the men that Sykes Picot was named after was essentially a dark mirror of Lawrence. Sir Mark Sykes was the son of Sir Tetton Sykes, whom married an 18 year old girl at age 48 and then disowned her publicly in the newspaper when she spent too much of his money. That's Mark's dad. Yeah, a lot of pieces of shit in the British nobility. Mark was their only child and he spent his childhood moving between his father's 34,000 acre estate and his mother's London home. He traveled the Ottoman Empire regularly as a tourist with his dad. And then when he became a young man, he joined the military and participated in the Boer War. He became a conservative member of Parliament and he writes books about the Ottoman Empire and kind of the Islamic world. Right. And he is, during the First World War, kind of one of the first major. He's a major advocate within the British government for the independence of Arabs, Armenians, Jews and Turks. Right. So long as that independence existed under European control and profit. And his thinking here is less these people deserve their independence and more if we cut them up into individual little quasi states under our control, it's going to be a lot easier to keep everyone dominated. Right?

[B]

Oh, shit. Uh huh.

[A]

Yeah. Over the last few pre war years, Sykes had become the Empire's resident expert on the Arab world. Based on the strength of him like vacationing there a bunch. Right. And the fact that he was a baronet. He was referred to.

[B]

I can just picture this character so easily.

[A]

They're like, daddy, Daddy, Daddy. He was referred to as the mad Mullah as he watched rushed around London building support for this Arab revolt against the Ottomans, who he hated for the squalor and poverty that he saw in cities like Damascus. Now he's not entirely misguided here because the Ottomans are not good rulers, but his feeling that the way to improve things was to set Europeans up over the poor bumbling Mohammedan. Sykes was paired with Francois Georges Picot, a French diplomat, to portion out the Ottoman Empire into little bits to various powers. As the war worked towards a close, there were a lot of hopeful claims. Italy wanted the Aegean islands. Greece wanted traditional Byzantine territory in modern Turkey. Russia wanted some of that good Asia Minor shit as well. Although they're not going to be at the table for very long here because of that whole Bolshevik revolution. And of course the Zionists wanted a Jewish homeland in Palestine. And it's interesting, one of the big. I was actually kind of unaware of this. One of the reasons why there's a support for the Zionists is people who are. Is like people in the British government who are scared that Russia is going to collapse under a socialist revolution and are like, well, if we give the Jews a homeland, obviously all socialists are Jews. Right. So if we give them a homeland, you know, in Palestine, then maybe they'll leave Russia and they won't destroy Russia. Right. Like that's literally why a lot. There's a lot of early support for Zionism of the British government. It's like this super concentrated racism.

[B]

God, I love how Schrodinger's Jew, where you're either a capitalist or a communist or somehow both at once.

[A]

Yes, yes. You control all the money and are a left wing radical. Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So this was to put mildly. If you are people like Sykes and Picot, Any of the people in the British government above Lawrence's level who are trying to figure out what the post war is going to look like for this region. There's a lot to keep in mind. Right. There's a lot of competing claims. There's a lot of different national groups that are kind of agitating for independence too.

[B]

Are they just gonna ignore it all and just carve it up willy nilly? Yeah.

[A]

That's more or less what Sykes has got to do because he's British. Right. So he's only focused on. I've read about. Yeah, yeah. He's mostly focused on his country's closest ally, France. Right. And France wants something they called Greater Syria. Right. They think obviously this is natural French territory.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In deference to the large number of young men that France had thrown into the wood chippers on the Western Front, they got most of what they wanted. The fact that they were doing a 50, 50 genocide ratio in, in the Muslim majority areas that they had governed in the past should have been a warning that, like, this is not going to go well. But no one anywhere has ever learned a lesson, ever. You know, that's the primary lesson of history is that no one learns lessons and no one has learned any lessons from France fucking around in Algeria.

[B]

Certainly I haven't even learned this lesson.

[A]

Now, it would have been obvious at the time that what, you know, the planning going into Sykes Picot would lead to catastrophe. The Ottoman Empire had been collapsing for some time. In 1830, France had taken Algeria and immediately done a genocide to put down the rebels there. They had gained control of Tunisia in 1881, and they actually waited until 1958 before they did a genocide in Tunisia. So really, I mean, like, it's kind of impressive. They've got, you know, they got more responsible. That's nice.

[B]

The French have patience, you know.

[A]

Yeah, they have patience. They waited almost a whole century before they did a genocide in Tunisia.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now, under the final agreement between France and England, a large region of the Ottoman heartland directly above Syria would be under direct French control. While a triangle that included Aleppo, Damascus and Mosul would be like, kind of independent but under heavy French influence. Whereas the British would have an area of influence that was like this large chunk of the desert on the peninsula south of the French mandate. And they would hold direct control over much of modern Iraq stretching to the Arabian Gulf. Sykes would go on to solidify his role as one of the most harmful dudes to ever cause harm by also pushing the Balfour Declaration to the British Cabinet in November of 1917. He's like, one of the forces behind the Balfour Declaration.

[B]

And this is like the early Zionist.

[A]

Yes, yes. Although the actual declaration itself spends more time talking about, like, Jewish populations in European countries. Right. Because a lot of. In the chaos in Russia, a lot of, like, Jewish people had fled Russia and wound up in England, wound up in other European. Like, that is actually more of what the declaration is. But kind of the outcome of the declaration is this is the first time that there's official British government support behind the Zionist desire for a homeland in Palestine. Now, the actual text of the declaration, like, of the agreement being made is like, of course no one will be displaced. None of the current, like, inhabitants of Palestine will be displaced as a result of this. Yeah. Through magic. Yeah, yeah, through magic. In true imperial fashion, Sykes primary justification for supporting the Balfour Declaration was his own rampant antisemitism. He believed that if Great Jewry was against us, the Allies had no hope for final victory. Right. Because, again, these guys are both communists and they control all the money. Right.

[B]

Yeah. And they're also both incredibly strong and. Or they're weak, sniveling, effeminate people who will absolutely destroy us if they get the chance.

[A]

Right. It's the common, like, proto fascist bullshit.

[B]

Yeah. Which we're dealing with right now in America about the left, antifa and stuff.

[A]

Yes, yes. I mean, it's just kind of these people. Right. Sykes is the kind of guy you see all throughout history, and in this case, he's antisemitically talking himself into Zionism, which is a fascinating part of the history of this whole moment.

[B]

Yeah. Very common method of encouraging Zionism at this time.

[A]

Now, after setting up like a third of the 20th and 21st century's worst dominoes, Sykes lives happily until, in a rare win for humanity, he dies of flu in 1919. So, again, I have to keep going back to, like, is influenza so bad? You know?

[B]

Yeah. Spanish flu got somebody.

[A]

It took out Sykes. That's not the worst, you know. So back to our boy, T.E. lawrence. We don't know precisely when he found out that Sykes Picot was a thing. The agreement first entered public awareness in late 1917 after the October Revolution led to the overthrow of the czar. The Bolsheviks get a hold of a bunch of different, like, paperwork, Right. That, you know, had been in the hands of the czar's government. And some of that is the Sykes Picot Agreement.

[B]

And, yeah, they overthrow your government. You get the notes?

[A]

Yeah. Trotsky actually leaks a copy of Sykes Picot to a newspaper Right. And then the Guardian publishes the details in English media for the first time after this. In early reporting on the manor, Lenin called, called Sykes Picot, quote, the agreement of colonial thieves. And there's really no fact based argument against that. Yeah, that's that he was just right, he was just correct on that.

[B]

Well, didn't they. Weren't these the like. I think they were called protectorates or something. There was like a different word. They were like, oh, we don't, we don't own this. We're just gonna help.

[A]

A lot of these are spheres of influence. Right? Yeah, yeah. So when. And again, this is not Sykes Picot, is not what actually happened specifically. Cause like they get carved up, you get like a rac, you get Jordan. And none of that's in Sykes Picot. That all comes later. But Sykes Picot is kind of evidence of what they've agreed to, basically. Right. It's the broad strokes of what's going to happen. So when Lawrence had left Cairo, this had not all been as settled as it was. By November, the British government's official line still was that it was inciting an Arab revolt to secure their total independence. Lawrence clearly knew that there was some extent to which this was bogus from the beginning, which is why he wrote in Seven Pillars. Hardly one day in Arabia passed without a physical ache to increase the corroding sense of my accessory deceitfulness towards the Arabs and the legitimate fatigue of responsible command. Right. So the fact that this is all a lie is wearing on Lawrence, especially since the greater part of his job was to personally negotiate deals with various Arab tribes to fight the Ottomans with the promise of independence after the war. In letters back to his superiors, Lawrence protested what became Sykes Picot. Anthony Satin describes this for an article in Al Jazeera. He objected loudly to the agreement for several reasons. He thought that the French should be allowed nothing, having behaved so badly in Algeria and elsewhere in Northwest Africa. He thought a post war Commonwealth of Arab States under British tutelage might work. And he protested at having to ask Arab forces to fight on what he called a lie. I can't stand it. He insisted. And yet he continued. And if we're looking for like Lawrence as a bastard, this is, this is getting into some of the better cases for it. Right. Because like he talks about how much he hates this. He is trying to, but like trying to work against Sykes Picot on the ground. But he also knows what his government is planning and he's, he's kind of being a pied piper to these Guys that he cares about as it goes on.

[B]

Oh, that's wild. Because he's also, overall, he's someone who's trying to act based on morality rather than like cold strategy. He's obviously a strategic thinker. Right. But he's like, yeah, he's thinking, you know, because geopolitically you have to give the French something. And he's like, no, they don't deserve anything because they're terrible, but they're dicks.

[A]

Fuck them.

[B]

Yeah. Whereas he's able to sell himself on the idea that the British protectorate or sphere of influence won't be as bad.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, and some of that might be even some of his own, like chauvinism from being from that culture. But also it might have been an honest appraisal of the situation. But then, yeah, like he's like trying to act more from a moral position, but he knows he can't.

[A]

Oh, that's so right.

[B]

I mean, yeah, he could have, he could have just been like, I have entirely abandoned England. And you know.

[A]

Yeah, but he doesn't. Yeah.

[B]

So he's canceled.

[A]

So he's canceled. Yes, we're canceling T.E. lawrence. We've decided the fight against Sykes Picot was to dominate the next years of Lawrence's life. But he would have missed the public reveal of Sykes Picot in November for a very unfortunate reason, which is that that month he was captured by the Ottomans. Now this is actually one of those ifs, because this may be something he lied about, but if it happens, this happened while he was conducting one of his many recon missions. He describes in Seven Pillars of Islam that he was hiding himself as a Circassian in the city of Dara when he was drafted. Basically, like, they see a young man walking around and they're like, you're in the army now, buddy. Right? Because he's good enough at hiding that he's like a Circassian, right. That they think, okay, well we got a time for you to be a member of the army that you're fighting now. So Lawrence says, basically, like the draft was just kind of an excuse to take me into custody. What happened really is the governor wanted to fuck me. Right. And he describes lengthily how he was beaten and tortured and then gang raped by the Governor and his guards in Seven Pillars. This is like, and it's interesting because like, this is a pages long description of like torture and rape. He doesn't quite describe openly sexual penetration, but basically everything else. Right. And it is ultimately published in 1922. I don't know if Lawrence was the first famous man of the 20th century to write publicly about being raped, but the list ahead of him can't have been long. Right. Like, there can't be a lot of competition for that role.

[B]

People were really, really into, like. And then the curtains are drawn.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Historically with their writing.

[A]

Yeah. And he does that a bit. Right. Like he's not as open about, like, he doesn't describe it in, but he's like, this is like, it's a very detailed description of like the torture and stuff to the point that the people who think this is faked is kind of like Lawrence is sort of like writing his own sexy fan fiction here.

[B]

Oh, because he's a stupid masochist.

[A]

Maybe. Right. You know, maybe.

[B]

Or this is why he's a masochist is to try.

[A]

And this is why he's a masochist, because he's raped and tortured. Yes.

[B]

As a way to experience the same thing, but under his own control.

[A]

Right, right. And you know, I'm going to tell you right now what actually happened here is unknowable to us right now. I am going to give the best arguments as to why this is fake because I think that's responsible. I tend to think it was probably real, but I'm not a historian, so I debated whether or not to read some quotes from this portion of Seven Pillars. I opted not to because it's really upsetting stuff. This is a legitimately upsetting description of torture and sexual assault. In recent years, some Lawrence biographers, namely James Barr, who authored Desert on Fire, have argued that Lawrence could not have been in Dara when he claimed this happened and have even found evidence that he doctored his notes to further this lie. Barr's argument is that Lawrence came up with this story later, after the war to, quote, discredit Arab militants in the precarious post war climate. I find this an odd argument which is not really in line with Lawrence's other post war behavior. But in my research for this, I did run across a couple of pieces of evidence that might be seen as evidence that Lawrence's lie continues to work in the present day. Like discrediting not Arabs, but like these, these kind of like some of these local fighters. Here's a segment I found from the website on the website firstworldwar.com and this is talking about like the Ottoman use of rape as a weapon. This indignity was more often inflicted on members of the officer class and the belief that it robbed them of their authority as a leader of men sometimes resulting in the victim's suicide. The Ottoman Turks were infamous for inflicting it throughout the Great War on captured Indian troops, beating and gang raping enemy officers, often as a matter of due course. Prisoners and garrisons often had personnel who specialized in this abuse, although there was nothing homosexual about it. And this is kind of contra to Lawrence's description because he does describe this as being a very like the. The governor and his men are homosexual, Right. They want to fuck Lawrence. And that's kind of the result of all this.

[B]

Well, you just get into ideas of like, what counts as homosexual being like in a lot of different places. The active person is not the gay person, you know.

[A]

Right. Yeah. And there's a. Yeah, we'll talk more about this, but first, wait, have we done our second ad break?

[B]

No, we have not.

[A]

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First month of [e-mail] this podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp. November is all about gratitude. This is the month to think about the people who support you who have your back. That may include your therapist, but it should also include you. It could be hard to remember to be grateful to yourself with all of the difficulty and stress and trauma that we face on a daily basis just living our lives. So here's a reminder to be grateful to you. And one thing that being grateful to yourself can mean is considering therapy. If you've been in therapy, if you're considering therapy, you might consider giving BetterHelp a try. It's entirely online. It's designed to be convenient, flexible and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and you can switch therapists at any time for no added charge. So let the gratitude flow with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com behind today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp H E L P.com behind again betterhelp.com behind to show some gratitude to you. Ah, we're back. So you know we're talking about was Lawrence of Arabia gang raped?

[B]

Dinner topic.

[A]

Yeah, light dinner topic. Now when it comes to like the anti side of this, Barr is joined in doubt by academics like Adrian Greaves. Greaves makes some points that I find compelling, particularly that the Turks were Unlikely to have believed for days that Lawrence was really an Arab captive or Circassian captive. But he also takes issue with the fact that Lawrence didn't bring this up until 1919. Right. That's one of Barr's pieces of evidence that like this is probably fake is that Lawrence doesn't talk about it. And I'm like, no, it's not really weird that you'd wait like a couple of years to talk about your gang rape. Yeah.

[B]

Most people take that to their grave.

[A]

Yeah. That's not. I don't really think that counts the way that you seem to think it does. Yeah. And there's also some gay panic adjacent stuff in some of these arguments. Historian David Fromkin has suggested Lawrence made up the rape to explain whip marks from his alleged sadomasochistic kink. I don't know who is right here, but I do want to read this line from an article on Cleo's Visualizing History website. Biographer John E. Mack, however, accepts the story and Lawrence's later assertion that what happened to him at Dara apparently did permanent damage to his psyche. And there is compelling evidence for this damage. Although separating what might have been caused from the rape, what was ptsd. Right. Because of the war and all of the illness. Right. Like you get PTSD from nearly dying repeatedly of various like shit yourself to death illnesses. There's no way to separate this. Right. Like Lawrence is after about a year or so because he's really not there all that long. He's there like two years and all. He is just a pile of PTSD stitched together into the crude image of a man.

[B]

On one of his best days, he shot his own camel in the head by accident. That was one of the best days he had.

[A]

That was one of his wins.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like he is just destroyed as a person and it is, I think, very consistent. Now Barr has a really good point when he kind of pieces out it can't have happened exactly the way Lawrence describes it in the book. Right. Because we know there's just some things about the timing of where he was when that don't work out. That doesn't mean he didn't. It didn't happen in another city and he lied and said it was Dara for some reason. They're also just like people fuck up. Right. Like Lawrence is going to.

[B]

Classic thing to remember really well.

[A]

Yeah. We'll talk about this in the next episode. Lawrence is going to like destroy his notes several times and lose drafts of this book and have to rewrite it. So, like Some errors probably got introduced, but it is now agreed and even. And Barr even writes that like, broadly speaking, Seven Pillars is quite accurate, as in its descriptions of what happened in the Arab revolt. Right. And I tend to think this probably happened to Lauritz. And part of why is because he has a personality shift after this point and kind of loses his mind in a way that seems very much like, oh, yeah, I bet if you were gang raped and then suddenly had an army and a bunch of Turkish soldiers surrendering to you, this might be how you'd act. Right?

[B]

Oh, is this where he's gonna go?

[A]

Bastard.

[B]

Is he gonna kill the shit?

[A]

He is going to kill a lot of people in Part four, Margaret.

[B]

Oh, shit.

[A]

He is going to kill a ton of dudes. Okay.

[B]

Cause like, the bastard's formula is to get you to become sympathetic with a terrible person and then like, about halfway through. But you've had me for the first three acts.

[A]

I don't know. I still. He's going to commit war crimes.

[B]

Everyone in war does.

[A]

I still don't know that. This makes him a terrible person. Like, it's a bad thing to have done.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. But I don't know that anyone who is capable of doing the things that he's done up to this point in a war, who is capable of the competences that he showed, would by this point be able to have better judgment in this way. Right. Which isn't to say, like, it's fine that he did this. It's just that, like, well, anyone in this position would be out of their minds by a certain point because that's just what, like, personally, like orchestrating an insurgent campaign in the desert while shitting yourself to death and nearly dying every single day in gunfights. Like, it just ruins you. He is just shattered as a man. And there's a very good chance part of that is tortured and gang raped. Yeah. Who would be doing well after this?

[B]

They didn't blow up the bridge, they just dismantled it.

[A]

They just messed it up. Dismantled it. But they left the shape intact. Again, he's just a bunch of trauma piled into a bag shaped like T.E. lawrence at this point. God damn. Yeah. This man is so fucked up. Speaking of fucked up, Margaret, let's go get fucked up and then come back to record Part four. And by fucked up, I mean I'm as fucked up. I'm actually gonna brush my teeth.

[B]

I do is sugar, but I've had a lot of it.

[A]

I'm high on life, Margaret, which is a powerful mix of heroin And I.

[B]

Was gonna say that's all life is. That what life? It's a new gas station drug.

[A]

Yeah, it's a new gas station drug. I. That's what I call it when I mix Kratom and those yellow jacket pills and then just a bunch of five hour energy and grind that up into a shake with a little bit of milk, a little bit of oat milk, you know, just for flavor.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah. Podcasting don't do that. Friends do that. Friends. Instead, you should purchase Margaret Kiltrey's new book. If they sell it in the garage. Yeah, purchase Margaret's new book, you know, the Sapling Cage. It's excellent.

[B]

And if you're listening to this several weeks ago, you can go see Robert and I talk in Portland.

[A]

Yes, yes. Yeah. This will have happened long before by the time this airs, possibly in a world where we're all preparing for fascist takeover of the government. Sounds great. And everyone's like going to the bridge party. This will be great. This will be great. This will be great. Sounds amazing. Also, I really want to plug something we just did on It Could Happen here. James Stout, who is a phenomenal journalist that works on the It Could Happen show, just did a week long series about the daring crap and land migration. So check that out.

[B]

I haven't, I haven't listened to it yet. I've talked to the whole thing.

[A]

It's amazing.

[B]

So please, please check that out.

[A]

Yeah. Bye. Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, Visit our website, coolzone media.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the Bastards is Now available on YouTube. New episodes every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to our channel, YouTube.comehindthebastards 1 in 3 women and 1 in 4 men experience domestic abuse in their lifetime. And nearly half of survivors delay leaving because they can't bring their pets with them. Purina started the Purple Leash Project to help eliminate one of the many barriers domestic abuse survivors face. A lack of pet friendly domestic violence shelters. Through the Purple Leash Project, Purina is helping to create more pet friendly domestic violence shelters across the country so abuse survivors and their pets can escape and heal together. Visit purina.compurple to get involved.

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Good job. Thanks.