How The FBI Botched the 2001 Anthrax Scare (Part 2)

Summary

Behind the Bastards

Episode: How The FBI Botched the 2001 Anthrax Scare (Part 2)

Host: Robert Evans
Guest: Courtney
Date Recorded: September 12, 2025
Published: October 7, 2025
Podcast Network: Cool Zone Media / iHeartPodcasts

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Episode Overview

This episode continues the deep dive into the 2001 anthrax attacks and the disastrous FBI investigation that followed. Host Robert Evans and guest Courtney focus on the unraveling of the case, why the FBI fixated on an innocent man (Steven Hatfill), the atmosphere of national paranoia after 9/11, and how bureaucratic incompetence, media hysteria, and personal vendettas destroyed lives without ever solidly solving the crime. The episode explores the real impact on Hatfill, why the FBI stuck to its flawed theory, and what was ultimately revealed about the case years later.

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Key Discussion Points

1. National Climate After 9/11 (00:05–05:00)

• Robert Evans opens with how his own journalism intersects with mass shootings and the psychological toll news reporting can have on reporters.
• The hosts recall the state of American society in the weeks after 9/11, marked by fear, paranoia, and a collective break in the public psyche.
  • “There was something that left everyone's souls. The light in their eyes was different. People fucking went... It was like somebody had flipped a switch.” — Robert Evans (03:00)
• Americans were primed for irrational fear, which set the stage for overreaction to the anthrax attacks.

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2. The Anthrax Attacks Unfold (06:55–16:45)

• Less than three weeks after 9/11, Robert Stevens, a photo editor at the National Enquirer, becomes the first fatal victim of anthrax.
• The details of anthrax poisoning are discussed: inhalation anthrax is extremely rare and generally only caused by intentional weaponization.
• Early suspicion falls on Islamic terrorists due to the timing, but forensic evidence quickly narrows the pool.
• The Ames strain of anthrax is identified—a strain primarily kept by the US military’s bio-defense labs (at USAMRIID, Fort Detrick).
  • “Once they have identified… the AIM strain, it really can't be Al Qaeda at this point.” — Robert Evans (20:53)
• Discussion of how weaponizing anthrax requires significant technical expertise only possessed by perhaps “50 to 100 max” people in the country.

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3. The FBI Fumbles the Investigation (22:18–39:05)

• The FBI, led by Robert Mueller as Director, is slow to catch on that the perpetrator must be a domestic bioweapons expert rather than a foreign terrorist.
• Early efforts focus on irrelevant clues, such as the blocky handwriting and odd return addresses on the anthrax letters.
  • “He gets obsessed with the writing on the letters… the handwriting… thinking the killer will return to gloat on a computer sting website.” — Robert Evans (33:16)
• Notably, the investigation was run out of the same field office also managing the 9/11 case, resulting in overworked agents with insufficient scientific backgrounds.
• Experienced bioweapons scientists, like James R.E. Smith, contact the FBI to point out the reality, even volunteering themselves for investigation given the narrow suspect pool.
• The FBI, wanting a win after missing 9/11, is hungry for PR and quick conclusions.

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4. The Steven Hatfill Witch Hunt (39:05–56:00)

• Steven Hatfill becomes the main suspect: a middle-aged white scientist with a sometimes adversarial relationship to coworkers, a complicated resume, and experience designing theoretical bio-disperal devices for the US military.
  • “Increasingly, the name Steven Hatfill starts coming up in their interrogations of other scientists.” — Robert Evans (41:13)
• Thin circumstantial “evidence” against Hatfill includes:
  • Lectures about bioterror scenarios
  • International travel overlapping with some mailings
  • A Malaysian girlfriend when one letter is postmarked from Malaysia
• The FBI, bolstered by scientist Barbara Rosenberg’s public memos and media speculation (notably by Nicholas Kristof in the NYT), turns the investigation into a full-blown public spectacle.
• The media hounds Hatfill relentlessly, with unnamed sources and innuendo fueling further suspicion and career damage.
  • "With Hatfill's face splashed all over the news...He stopped going out in public altogether." — Robert Evans (67:48)
• The Feds (and some reporters) lean into conspiracy thinking about Hatfill’s past in Rhodesia and supposed connections to prior anthrax outbreaks, despite no evidence he would be capable—or had the access—at the time.
  • “It's this classic like, well, he's a bioweapons expert now. So clearly when he was a child, he must have also been a bioweapons expert.” — Robert Evans (54:01)

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5. The Toll on Hatfill: Harassment and Surveillance (61:28–66:15)

• The FBI employs “bumper lock” surveillance, trailing Hatfill 24/7 so obviously that it disrupts his life and career opportunities, even physically harming him (running over his foot).
• Hatfill loses multiple jobs and is repeatedly searched, arrested for trivial matters, and socially ostracized.
• The FBI publicly names him a “person of interest,” and his life becomes a nightmare; he begins drinking more and faces severe mental health consequences.
  • “I'd never really watched the news before, Hatfill says, and now I'm seeing my name all over the place and all these idiots like Geraldo Rivera saying, is this the anthrax animal? ...It was sanctioned torture.” — Robert Evans (68:40)
• He eventually sues the federal government and wins a substantial settlement, with some FBI agents later admitting the focus on Hatfill was partly to restore the Bureau’s reputation after 9/11.

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6. The Real Lead—Still Unsolved (74:17–79:52)

• In 2007, a new team of investigators is brought in and quickly eliminates Hatfill based on the simple fact he never had direct access to anthrax.
  • “Despite his expertise...Hatfill had never in his entire life had direct access to anthrax.” — Robert Evans (75:16)
• The investigation finally turns to Bruce Ivins, an anthrax expert at USAMRIID, but he dies by suicide after being subject to similar FBI pressure.
• Even so, scientific review casts doubt on the FBI’s ability to conclusively tie Ivins to the attacks; to this day, the anthrax mailings remain officially unsolved.

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7. Reflections on Justice, Trauma & Institutional Failure (79:52–80:55)

• Robert and Courtney discuss the personal and institutional fallout—the erosion of trust in the FBI, the cascade of ruined lives, and the dangers of government PR-driven investigations.
  • “How could this not blow your head up? The whole FBI and a lot of the security state outside of it being focused on just you, right? Like that would drive you crazy.” — Robert Evans (73:35)
  • “He’s not a happier, healthier man because this all happened to him.” — Robert Evans (79:52)
• The episode closes on a somber reminder that, despite years of pursuit, no one was ever officially charged for the anthrax mailings, institutional and media recklessness caused lasting harm, and the case remains a dark chapter in American investigative history.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On public fear after 9/11
  “If you were old enough to be, like, really cognizant [during 9/11]...there was something that left everyone's souls. The light in their eyes was different. People fucking went...it was like somebody had flipped a switch.” — Robert Evans (03:00)
• On FBI's tunnel vision
  “They decide the fact that they don’t think he’s a good person means that he must have done this. And those are two separate things, right?” — Robert Evans (44:39)
• On media complicity
  “Hatfill’s reputation isn’t spotless...but basically, 100% of people, if the whole FBI started trying to uncover ugly things about them, would find some ugly things. It’s why it’s fucked up for them to do stuff like that.” — Robert Evans (67:48)
• On the cost to Hatfill
  “Once an energetic...professional who reveled in 14 hour work days, Hatfill now found himself staring at the walls all day. Television became his steady companion...You might as well have hooked me up to a battery. It was sanctioned torture.” — Robert Evans via Hatfill (68:40)
• On enduring uncertainty
  “We don’t know who did the anthrax attack. Ivins is the most likely name out there, but there’s...reason to doubt it was him.” — Robert Evans (77:08)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:05–05:00 — Post-9/11 social climate
• 06:55 — First anthrax death: Robert Stevens
• 10:29–14:04 — Forensic investigation begins, Ames strain identified
• 20:52–21:46 — Elimination of Al Qaeda as culprit; focus on domestic scientists
• 22:18 — The FBI’s evidence blind spot
• 30:21 — FBI’s “Amerithrax” operation; focus on irrelevant details
• 39:05–47:10 — Hatfill’s career and how he became the focus
• 50:40 — FBI’s media leaking and Hatfill’s public ruination
• 61:28 — “Bumper locking” and the psychological campaign
• 68:40 — Hatfill’s complete psychological breakdown
• 74:17–76:00 — A new team exonerates Hatfill, focuses elsewhere
• 77:52–79:10 — Bruce Ivins and the investigation’s sad end
• 79:52–80:55 — Big-picture reflection and closing thoughts

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Tone and Style

The episode maintains Robert Evans' signature irreverent but deeply-researched tone, with biting sarcasm, dark humor, and empathy for the wrongly accused. Courtney brings personal recollection and pointed commentary, contributing to a conversational but incisive analysis. The hosts grapple with the real human costs of botched justice and the institutional tendency to scapegoat for the sake of public approval.

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Summary for New Listeners

This episode is a deep, at times darkly funny, and ultimately sobering look at how America’s most dramatic bioterror scare after 9/11 became a case study in government overreach and the personal destruction of an innocent man. Through firsthand reporting, historical context, and plenty of gallows humor, Robert Evans and Courtney break down what went wrong, why the anthrax case remains unsolved, and how the lessons of Amerithrax echo into the present. If you’ve ever wondered how an investigation can go so spectacularly off the rails—or how ordinary paranoia can mutate into state-sanctioned persecution—this is an essential listen.

Transcript

[Courtney]

Call Zone Media.

[Robert Evans]

Oh, my gosh. Welcome back to behind the Bastards, a podcast where your host, Robert Evans hasn't slept in two days. I mean, I slept a little bit. I fell asleep last night at like 2am and then around 4, I woke bolt upright, like suddenly, perfectly awake and with this just feeling in my bones that some news had happened. And for you know, the record, folks, we're recording this on September 12th, so just a couple of days after Charlie Kirk's assassination. And I just woke up with the feeling that something had happened. So I checked my phone and the authorities announced that they'd taken someone into custody and they announced his name. So from that point, I spend the rest of the night finding this, the shooter's family on the Internet and going through all of their social media and doing the thing that I do because this is both what made my career and also something that's permanently damaged my brain. So, like about a dozen friends of mine, whenever there's a. A weird shooting like this, I wind up digging into some Internet poisoned young man's life for several hours, which I did. And I found some useful news and published it, posted it and stuff, put it out, got it out there. So now I'm. I'm. The term we used to use when I was a kid was cracked out. How are you doing guest today, Courtney?

[Courtney]

You all right?

Oh, my God. That's such an odd relationship to have with this kind of news.

[Robert Evans]

Yes, yes.

[Courtney]

I'm so sorry.

[Robert Evans]

It's. I mean, when the fucking, when the Poway, the synagogue shooting happened, I was flying to Mexico for a vacation and I had to like run into a wine bar in the 90 minutes before my flight and write an article. Like, this is just like how my. What my life has been like for a while now. It's weird. Courtney, how are you?

[Courtney]

Weird times. Yeah, I'm good. I'm just chilling.

[Robert Evans]

Well, that's good. Are you ready to learn about a different kind of terrorist attack?

[Courtney]

You know, I cannot wait. I honestly, I didn't know if I was going to be back for part three, but I am so excited to.

[Robert Evans]

Hear no one else would I tell this story to. So. And we're recording this on September 12th. So it's, you know, obviously this is all fresh in our minds. You remember, I'm sure, Courtney, that on September 11, 2001, the CIA used their low earth orbit ion cannon to destroy the World Trade center in New York City. The Twin Towers collapsed within minutes. Obviously that's one explanation. There are some experts who think that the Culprit was a group of terrorists who'd hijacked some commercial flights. Whatever the truth, we'll never know, obviously, but whatever the truth.

[Courtney]

Christ, Robert.

[Robert Evans]

Americans went crazy, right? Like, people lost. You and I, I think we remember, like, everyone losing their minds. Everyone here on this show right after 9 11. Oh, yeah, yeah. I know. It's always weird to me to talk to people, which now, you know, A decent number of people I. I'm social with don't have strong memories of 9 11. Like, I don't think Garrison was born. Gar was not born. Garrett does not remember 9 11.

[Courtney]

I remember being in high school, like, sitting in the room and watching the. Watching the second one go down.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, exactly. I came into health class, like, right before the second one hit. Like, I watched that live on TV and, like, you know, talking to. Because when I say, like, my younger friends, these people are, like, 27 to 30, right? They still don't remember 9 11. And it's. It's important if you. Because if you were. If you were old enough to be, like, really cognizant, then looking back on it, like, people. Like, there was something that left everyone's souls. Like, the light in their eyes was different. People fucking went. Like, my recollection of it is that overnight, all of the most stable, reasonable adults in my life became, like, bloodthirsty. Like, it was like somebody had flipped a switch. You know, it was a very, very, like, odd and unsettling time. And people got. In the wake of the attack, not only were they baying for blood for whoever was responsible, but they were incredibly paranoid.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

Because it felt like anyone might be at risk, you know, I have very strong memories of girls in my suburban North Texas school, like, worried that Al Qaeda was going to hit, like, our middle school, which, like, obviously that was never in the cards, but people were worried about that because everyone was losing their minds.

[Courtney]

I think I was gonna go to college in New York, and I didn't go because I was like, absolutely not. I don't fucking know what's gonna happen.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. I mean. And that's totally sensible. And so I bring this up because obviously the anthrax attacks happen right after 9 11. But it's also, before we talk about those attacks, to understand why the reaction was the way it was and why it wound up fucking up Steven Hatfill's life the way that it did, you have to understand how everyone was out of their minds. Every adult in the United States, or at least a majority of them, were completely insane for the events of this story. Mm.

[Courtney]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Robert Evans]

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[Robert Evans]

Dive into the stories making the news headlines across the world. The news agents we're not just here.

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[Robert Evans]

From me, Emily Maitlis and me, John.

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[Robert Evans]

To know about politics and current affairs and the newsagents USA listening to the newsagents on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search the newsagents to start listening. So less than three weeks after the Towers fell, a photo editor for the National Enquirer, Robert Stevens, started to feel ill. Stevens was British by birth. He was in his 60s. He'd moved to Florida as a younger man to work and worked for the National Enquirer. He was an image editor, right and the gist of his job was he helped to create fake news. Now the National Enquirer again. If you're young enough that you don't remember these guys, they're not quite like the Onion, like where they would never admit that everything was bullshit, but everything's bullshit in the National Enquirer. You know that picking up a copy that it's nonsense, right? It's like Batboy fucking articles and shit like that. And Stevens highest profile gig for the paper was merging photographs of Freddie Prinze and Raquel Welch after Prinze killed himself to kind of insinuate that the two had been in a relationship together before he killed himself.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

Like that was the kind of work that he did. So this is a guy. This is not a guy anyone would target necessarily for terrorism. This is just a dude editing pictures for the National Enquirer. And outside of that seems to have been a pretty normal guy. He was certainly not the kind of person who you'd ever expect to be the target of a sophisticated terrorist attack. But on Saturday, September 30, 2001, he started feeling ill as his wife was driving him home from a trip to North Carolina. The next day he just kept getting sicker. His fever spiked and he went home and he went from normal ill to barely able to speak in the course of a few hours. So on Tuesday, his wife took him to the ER at around 2am in the morning. Doctors initially suspected meningitis, but then he started having seizures. They did a spinal tap which finally revealed the culprit. Robert Stevens had been exposed to anthrax. Samples were immediately sent to a dedicated lab which confirmed that his symptoms were consistent with inhalation anthrax. As we noted in the last episodes, there's multiple ways to get anthrax. When there's natural outbreaks, it's usually not inhalation anthrax, right? That's when someone has made like weaponized dry. Anthrax is when you inhale it generally.

[Courtney]

Sorry, I'm dumb. Can you just. What was the cliffhanger of the last episode? Where do we kind of leave off?

[Robert Evans]

We had just gotten up to Steven Hatfill's career, right, where the last thing he had done before 911 happens. He's built an 18 wheeler trailer into a bioweapons lab model. Like not a real lab, but like a fake one because he's training US Special Forces how to recognize bioweapons labs in the thought that they're going to be invading Iraq and finding all of Saddam's Bioweapons labs that he definitely had.

[Courtney]

Right?

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Perfect. Yes. I'm all caught up.

[Robert Evans]

So Hatfill is. Yeah. Working for the US government, but he also, he has just gotten like fired and denied a security clearance from the CIA because he lied about a bunch of stuff in his backstory, right? Yes. So he's also starting to have career issues. Yeah. Anyway, it's into all of this that. Yeah. So this guy Stevens comes ill. Spinal tap and whatnot reveals that it's anthrax and inhalation. Anthrax is about as rare as illnesses get in the United States. When Stevens got sick, he was the 19th case of anthrax inhalation in the US in a hundred years. Oh, wow. Yeah. This is. Does not happen often. Right.

[Courtney]

Crazy.

[Robert Evans]

It's not the kind of thing you accidentally tend to do. And once it became clear that he had inhaled anthrax, his doctor and doctors who start looking at this immediately suspect terrorism. Right. This gets to the CDC very quickly once it's clear anthrax is involved. And part of why people were ready. People were primed to be scared of this because a few days before he got sick, news articles had come out reporting that two of the 911 hijackers had investigated the possibility of renting crop dusters before settling on their ultimate plan. And the Fed's assumption was that they'd wanted to rent crop dusters so that they could deploy anthrax.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

Because if you had a sufficient quantity of dry anthrax, you could deploy it via a crop duster. That was the assumption at the time. I actually don't know. They may have just wanted to fly the crop dusters into buildings, like knowing what they actually did, but this is what people were talking about at the time.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

That's what matters. So Americans not only are flipping out because of 9 11, but we're primed to be expect that like Al Qaeda's looking for ways to use anthrax. And then Suddenly this fucking 60 year old image editor gets sick with anthrax. Steven slips into a coma a couple of days after getting to the hospital and he stops breathing. In the late afternoon on Friday, October 5, he was the first of what would be five deaths from a series of anthrax letters that were sent to a bunch of different locations. Now, yes, this and sickens a number, a significant number more people.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

A bunch of people get sick, five of them die. The CDC is contacted immediately. And the book the Demon in the Freezer gives much more detail about the autopsy of Stevens and The protocols that follow after, if you're interested in all of that. But what's important is that they ultimately tracked the cause of infection, like where he got sick, down to the mailroom for the American Media building where he worked. Another employee, Ernesto Blanco, had gone to the hospital soon after Stevens did, suffering respiratory distress. And he also tested positive for anthrax. I think he survives, but the FBI gets involved. Right now you've got two people who have gotten anthrax from a mail room. Something is happening, Something intentional.

[Courtney]

Right?

Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

On October 15th, ten days after Stevens died, an employee at the mailroom for the Hart Senate Building office opened a letter addressed to a Senate Majority Leader, Tom Dasher, with its return address set as the fourth grade class for the Greendale School in New Jersey. She saw powder inside and immediately called the police. The building had to be evacuated for six months because anthrax spores had circulated through the H vac system. Cleanup alone cost like $26 million.

[Courtney]

Right.

Oh my God.

[Robert Evans]

Do you remember all of this? Like, were you like. Because I. This is when I. When the letter to Dashiell got found is when I remember becoming aware of the anthrax attacks.

[Courtney]

I remember the vague, like hysteria over anthrax. I was not following beat by beat the news stories.

[Robert Evans]

But right, right, right.

[Courtney]

People were scared.

[Robert Evans]

They're scared. And this is scary, by the way. Anthrax is fucking scary.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

It's not unreasonable when anthrax is showing up in the mail and random people are getting sick to be like, oh fuck, how much worse is this going to get? More letters start showing up in the following days. NBC gets a letter addressed to Tom Brokaw. There's a letter addressed to cbs, to the New York Post, to abc. And it doesn long for news to spread that across the country that someone or someones was executing an unprecedented biological attack on prominent publications and political leaders. The panic that had settled in after 911 dropped into left into high gear. Now initially, all we know is that there's letters with anthrax.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

Because they can't immediately like read the letters because of all the anthrax.

[Courtney]

Right?

Oh, right.

[Robert Evans]

So you have to get these letters to a secure location, which in this case was. We talked about usamrid in our last episode. That's where Steven Hatfield worked for years. That this is the primary biological warfare defense organization in the United States located in Fort Detrick. They get involved. At this point, the letters are sent to a secure facility and scientists with all of the gear that you need are able to read the Whole thing read. Yeah. And see what's written in them.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

Safely. One of the letters read 9 11, 2001. You cannot stop us. We have this anthrax. You die now. Are you afraid to. Death to America. Death to Israel. Allah is great. All in big bold capitalized letters, very distinctive block lettering. Weird looking. Now that's a weird message, right?

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

Obviously there had just, I joked about CIA lasers, but there had been a massive. 911 was a massive Islamic terrorist attack against the United States. That's what happened. So the idea that this would be involved with that would be a follow up attack was not weird. That said, if you know anything about like Al Qaeda or the history of Islamic terrorism, this is a weird letter.

[Courtney]

Right?

[Robert Evans]

Like, this doesn't actually sound like the kind of things that these people write when they're carrying out their attacks.

[Courtney]

It's like oddly American.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, well, I mean there'd be a death to America, death to Israel in there. Sure. But it's not like you die now. Are you afraid? That's weird.

[Courtney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Robert Evans]

Like this isn't. I could, as somebody who's professionally studied this. This is weird.

[Courtney]

I saw this in seven.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, yeah. So once professionals got a look at the samples, the actual anthrax, because they're not, you know, they're looking at the letters, but they're actually able to test anthrax. And this is important because anthrax is a biological thing.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

It's a bacteria, which means there's like a DNA basically for it. You know, like you can, you can figure there's different strains and they all strains are not created equal. Different strains have different levels of, you know, infectiousness and whatnot and deadline resistance to antibiotics and the like. There's a bunch of different ways to get infected with anthrax. And you know, you've got your naturally occurring anthraxes and then you've got your anthraxes that are like based off of natural strains, but they've been bred for lethality or whatever.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

Because people have weaponized anthrax.

[Courtney]

Sounds like cannabis.

[Robert Evans]

It is like pot. Anthrax and marijuana have a lot in common. And one of these days we'll get those clowns in Congress to legalize anthrax and I'll be able to grow marijuana and anthrax together. You know, finally you can get both in the same store. Bad thing to joke about on the episode about all the people who died from anthrax.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

No, it's not funny. I'm sorry.

[Courtney]

No.

[Robert Evans]

Although anthrax would Be a good name for a pot strain, but I wouldn't know. I've never smoked the devil's lettuce. Robert There are 89 known variants of the anthrax bacteria, or at least there were at the time. Maybe we've added a few since, I don't know, I'm not an anthrax expert. But when they tested this anthrax they were able to identify its exact strain, specifically the anthrax that had been mailed to the American media building. It was the Ames strain of anthrax. A M E S. The Ames strain of anthrax was initially found I think in 1981 and it was taken from a 14 month old calf, like a baby cow that perished in Texas in after a natural outbreak. So this starts out as a natural outbreak and the AIM strain is called the AIM strain because there's like a mailing error when they're sending samples of the anthrax to use samrid. And so the researchers there thought that it came from Ames, Iowa and not from Texas. That's why it's called the AIM strain. It's just a little fuck up in them reading the mail or whatever.

[Courtney]

So they just kept it, they just kept it off the cow?

[Robert Evans]

Yes, they kept it and they cultured it in order to turn it into. You've got like the wet anthrax, which is when you get like natural infections, it's wet, you know, so it's, it's because it's inside living wet things and it's very difficult and takes someone who is very skilled to take that and turn it into a dry like agent, a powder that you could spread and people could inhale it and get sick.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

That's complicated. And that's what they're doing to the, that's what they do to the AIM strain.

[Courtney]

Right?

[Robert Evans]

USAMRID does and they are doing it. We don't make biological weapons anymore. Right, but sort of we do theoretically. But we do for the purpose of studying how to defend ourselves.

[Courtney]

Right, like okay, whatever you tell yourself.

[Robert Evans]

If you've got, look, this is not the place to litigate that. I will say that their argument is that, well, if we're worried that someone might weaponize this stuff, then we need to have examples of it that we have weaponized in order to test and build defenses against it.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

So that's what we're still allowed to do because we're not supposed to be making anthrax to stockpile as a weapon for war.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

But you can have some of it that you're turning into this dry form in order to test different prophylactics and whatnot.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

And the aim strain after 81 becomes the strain that is used by Usamrid when they're doing anthrax research. Right. Because it's very deadly. So I mean, and it's super contagious. So basically, because it's one of the more deadly variants, they use it because if you're wanting to develop something that can protect people, you want to be using the nastiest version of it that you can to develop like a counter, Right?

[Courtney]

Totally. They're starting a huge.

[Robert Evans]

I mean, this is all. We're talking government logic here, Right? I'm not defending this. I'm just explaining how they think. Right, Totally. I'm not defending the US bioweapons programs. You can feel about that however you want, but these are the arguments that these guys are making, right? That this stuff will be used against us. It's only a matter of time. And so we need to be making and studying it and devoting a lot of money. And this is important, the fact that a lot of guys in the bioweapons research field think that the US is not putting enough money into bioweapons defense. And Hatfill is one of them. Hatfill has publicly complained about this, and a lot of guys in his industry have publicly complained. And we could say, well, if you're a bioweapons scientist, of course you think the government should be spending more money researching bioweapons, right?

[Courtney]

Yeah, it's good for business.

[Robert Evans]

But after 9, 11, it starts to seem, and especially now that now there's anthrax attacks, suddenly everyone's taking bioweapons seriously. And suddenly a lot more money starts going to these programs. As soon as people start dying from anthrax, US government starts putting money into anthrax defense. Wild how that works, Right? So once they have identified, once the guys at USAMRID know that this is the AIM strain and that really narrows the field of potential culprits, it really can't be Al Qaeda at this point.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

Like, right, because this is the specific strain that you SAMRID research. It can't, like fucking Osama bin Laden's not getting his hands on the AIM strain of anthrax. How would he? Right, yes. So this seriously narrows the field of potential culprits. Per an article by Marilyn Thompson for the Washington Post, quote, the evidence as compelling as a human fingerprint shifted suspicion away from Al Qaeda and suggested another disturbing possibility that the Anthrax. Anthrax attacks were the work of an American bioweapons insider. Now obviously it's possible someone else could have gotten access to the AIM strand of anthrax and weaponized it. But the number of people in the entire country who had the technical know how to do this with any degree of safety to take a wet bacteria and turn it into a dry agent that you can use as a weapon in this way, 50 to 100 max in the whole country and not a lot more than that in the world.

[Courtney]

Just like that guy with that home lab, right?

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. And so this is again, and Steven Hatfill's gonna be one of those 50 to 100 people, right? So immediately, as soon as they know this, anyone who knows anything about anthrax knows it's gotta be somebody at a high level in research, in weapons research, bioweapons research. There's just not many other options outside of the weird some other government who has the ability to have stolen a strain of anthrax from you. Samrid might be doing some sort of weird attack.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

But there's not any evidence that that's the case. But it would have had to have been. That's the only other thing it possibly could have been at this point.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

It's like another state level act or doing something crazy or the much more likely thing one of these scientists has gone rogue. Now one of the weird things about this case is the FBI does not seem to have wanted to accept this immediately.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

They really drag their feet on like adopting that piece of information and taking that in to their conception of what's happening here. And in order to understand why they're acting the way they are, you have to remember they're still very much in the dark at this point. This is just days after 911 really like a couple of not long at all, like literally less than a month. And they're still very much in the dark about a lot of the details of how the 911 hijackers had done what they did.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

Like that's still getting unraveled. And the writing in the letters makes everyone assume Islamic terrorists. And there's not a lot of encouragement for people in law enforcement to look deeper, especially since most of them don't know shit about anthrax like the rest of us. And so some of the first people to reach out to the feds about the possibility that one of these bioweapons scientists had done this were co workers of Steven Hatfill.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

It's bioweapons Scientists who start, as soon as they hear that it's the AIM strain, they start calling the FBI and being like, look, man, and I love the story. One of the ballsiest of them is this retired researcher, James R.E. smith. He had worked directly with weaponized anthrax at Fort Detrick, right? Which is something that Steven Hatfill never did. Hatfill never worked with anthrax. James Smith is a guy who. He made weaponized anthrax, right? And so when he heard that the anthrax that had been sent through the mail was of the AIM strain, he immediately knew the culprit was one of his colleagues. But then days and days go by without the FBI reaching out to him or any of his peers. And he's like, why in the fuck aren't they. You should be searching my house. Do you know what I know how to do? That's this guy's attitude, right? Like, why aren't you raiding me right now? The director of the FBI. And it's weird that the FBI fucks up. Cause the director of the FBI at this time is an unimpeachable fella you might know, named Robert Mueller.

[Courtney]

Shut the fuck up.

Shut the fuck up.

[Robert Evans]

Funny bulls.

[Courtney]

That's right, baby.

[Ad Voice]

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[Robert Evans]

So he puts the Washington Field Office in charge of investigating the anthrax attack, which is weird because the Washington Field Office is also in charge of investigating the 911 attacks. This means that you've got this 35 FBI agents who are investigating both of these things, which is like a lot. Maybe too much for 35 people's plates. That's a lot. I feel like 35 people for each of these cases would be reasonable, you know, if not more. Now, when it came to the anthrax case, these. The Washington Field office of the FBI did gain the help of another 15 USPS inspectors, which. And those guys are. Are sharp like the postal office. Feds are scary guys because obviously this is a postal crime, you know, so they're all working together on this shit only. But it's one of those things, you know, the USPS inspectors are good at what they do. FBI agents have a certain competences, but they are not in general experts on science or experts on biological and chemical weapons. Only eight of the FBI agents in the Washington office had relevant scientific experience, which means at this point, PhD. So there are eight science PhDs on the team, which sounds like a lot and like would be in any normal situation. But that means you only really have eight people on this team who adequately understand immediately what the early evidence Means. Yeah, right.

[Courtney]

The USPS guys are just like, I can tell you if it's a book or not.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, I can tell you how much they paid for their stamps. I don't know, bro. I work for the post office. You know who else works for the post office?

[Courtney]

Yo, mama. Oh, sorry.

[Robert Evans]

I was gonna say the 911 hijackers, but that's a theory I have. We'll talk about that when we come back. Jesus Christ. This is an ad by BetterHelp. October 10th is World Mental Health Day, a time to reflect on the importance of mental wellbeing and those who support it. This year, let's flip the script and focus the attention on thanking the therapists who have made an impact on people's lives. BetterHelp therapists have helped more than 5 million people worldwide with their mental health journeys. BetterHelp's therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully qualified. BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and their 10 plus years of experience and industry leading. Match fulfillment rate means they typically get it right the first time. But if you aren't happy with your match, you can switch to a separate therapist at any time from their tailored recommendations. So this World Mental Health Day, let's celebrate the therapists who have helped millions of people take a step forward to. If you're ready to find the right therapist for you, BetterHelp can help you start that journey. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com behind that's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P.com behind hey, it's Bobby from the Bobby Bones Show.

[Bobby Bones]

I had an incredible time at this year's iHeartRadio music festival and even got the chance to hang out with Diplo and Bailey Zimmerman while I was there. Check this out. So how did Ashes come together? Diploma.

[Diplo]

Well, I kind of briefly met Bailey, I think, at Morgan's show, one of them. And I think he's just the guy in Nashville. He's cool as hell. And I had a new kind of sound I wanted to do, and I think he's the one guy that could carry it. And I came to his house, I had a show. I pulled up real quick, he was about to leave on tour. You're about to jump in your tour bus. And we had like three hours play the record for him. We kind of like got a scratch and then he handled on his own on the road.

[Bailey Zimmerman]

Yeah, it was really cool. He really just like randomly showed up to my house and I'm like oh hey Diplo, what are you doing? He's like I have a song that I want to show you. And I was like okay. And then now we're here playing it live.

[Bobby Bones]

You can listen to the full episode out now wherever you get your podcasts and big shout out to my friends at Hyundai for making this possible. Had a blast cruising around festival weekend in the all new Palisade Hybrid there's.

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[Robert Evans]

We're back. I'm plugging my documentary Loose Mail about how the post office did 9 11. That's surely not gonna blow up my career and reputation. It's gonna be good. It's gonna be good. Everyone can do whatever now. It's fine. I don't know if you've heard the news lately.

[Courtney]

Yeah, I did, I did.

[Robert Evans]

People don't get in trouble for things anymore. So the guy leading the FBI investigation at this point in time was an assistant director. An assistant director. Obviously there's more than one at the FBI named Van Harp. And Van Harp's background was in organized crime. He was very competent at prosecuting like mob cases.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

His skill was in building networks of informants and interrogating people to get informations about organizations.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

And that's useful for those things. It's not really useful for this. He has no competence in the bioweapons field. He doesn't know what he's doing here. He has no reason.

[Courtney]

He's like, give me a guy, I'll interrogate the fuck out of him.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, I'll interrogate. Well, we don't have a guy. We've got some letters and some poison, you know, HAARP's main contribution is that he names the investigation Amerithrax, which is the official name of this. The Amerithrax investigation. The Amerithrax tax. Great work, C. I'm really glad whatever college you went to, you know, you didn't pay him enough. And he goes, this tells you he has full on cop investigator brain. Because he becomes obsessed immediately. Rather than being really interested in what the strain of anthrax is and what biologically is going on with the poison and what that tells him, he gets obsessed with the writing on the letters, like the handwriting, and with the return address of that one letter that was returned to fourth grade. That Greendale School, right? In Colorado or not Colorado, that's community. I forget what Greendale. This was supposed to be different one. Now, a smarter man than Harp might have said, hey, whoever did this is clearly very intelligent. And the letters are written in a weird blocky style, which is probably just the result of someone disguising their handwriting.

[Courtney]

New Jersey.

[Robert Evans]

Because no one's smart enough, huh?

[Courtney]

This Greendell School is in Franklin Park, New Jersey, by the way.

[Robert Evans]

Jersey. Yes. Thank you, Sophie.

[Courtney]

You're welcome.

[Robert Evans]

Nobody smart enough to weaponize anthrax would use their normal handwriting on the letter.

[Courtney]

Right?

[Robert Evans]

They would do something like make it weird block letters. But he's convinced that there's something to learn, which is again, he buys into the stuff that a lot of Americans and all cops do, that forensic Science works when it often and mostly doesn't. Like, you know, fingerprints are kind of real, but often not the way that the cops say that they are and stuff. Like handwriting analysis and gate analysis is fucking. I'd say it's voodoo, but like, voodoo I have a lot more respect for than that kind of bullshit, you know? Totally.

[Courtney]

Even on the reporting, the Kirk reporting, when they were like, we got a elbow indentation.

[Robert Evans]

It's like, yeah, you gotta really do with that. And again, they were so like. Kash Patel was so like, yeah, we're gonna get him.

[Courtney]

Oh, Kash Patel.

[Robert Evans]

No, no, because you don't know what again. And it's the. The FBI was more competent at this point in time, but as the story's going to tell you, not that competent still.

[Courtney]

Sure.

[Robert Evans]

So Harp, or like he is, he gets fucking obsessed. Van Harp gets fucking obsessed with the handwriting and with the return address on this. And he's certain that they're gonna find something there. So he appoints another veteran agent to specifically looking into those aspects of the letter. And this guy, again, is an agent whose only experience is in busting organized crime and the like. His name is Bob Roth. And so he starts investigating the letter itself.

[Courtney]

Bob Roth, I love that.

[Robert Evans]

Bob Roth. Yeah, a lot of Fed names here. He consults a handwriting analyst. Per the Washington Post, this analyst, quote, proposed setting up a computer sting operation in an effort to identify the killer. Smith the analyst would try to lure the perpetrator to two websites, handtomind.com and anthrax hunt.com by making provocative statements about the killer's handwriting and publicizing the sites in interviews and on TVs. America's Most Wanted.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

So that's their plan is we'll make a website to stick this guy. He's got to want to brag or something like that.

[Courtney]

Right?

[Robert Evans]

Again, it's all like, well, I watched some movies about serial killer's logic.

[Courtney]

Totally.

[Robert Evans]

Which is as real as most of this behavioral analysis shit tends to be. So the FBI spends two months on this sting operation and there's absolutely no result. Nothing. They get nothing. They do get people to go to those websites and two of them are on their list. But those guys didn't do anything like on their suspect list. But those guys don't, like. It's useless. It's just a waste. Yeah, just a hobby. Yeah, they're just like tweaking the FBI's nose. And in fact, as time goes on, it becomes clear to everyone nothing the FBI is doing seems to be bringing them any Closer to a culprit. And this is a real problem for the Bureau because they missed 9 11.

[Courtney]

Right?

[Robert Evans]

They're not the only agency that should have caught 9 11. But stopping 9 11s is one of the FBI's jobs, and they did not. And now these anthrax attacks have happened, and they can't catch the anthrax attack guys. And it wasn't all that long ago that a federal building in Oklahoma City was blown up and they didn't stop that. And then, you know, if you go back before that, you've got Ruby Ridge and Waco. The FBI doesn't look great at either of those. So the FBI is really hungry for some good pr. They want this to get solved. They kind of need a win. You know, they're your friend who just got, like, broken up with and fired from their job in the same week, and you're, like, just taking him out to try to. You're like walking up to someone to go to the bathroom, like, would you just tell him he looks good tonight? Like he needs it, man.

[Courtney]

Like, totally.

[Robert Evans]

That's where the FBI is here. And that's what's going to wind up fucking up Steven Hatfill's life, right? So as this case drags on without any sort of, like, clear suspects, agents start complaining to their bosses about overtime and about how futile the investigation is. Bob Roth begs publicly to be removed from the case. And this brings me back to that bioweapons expert, James Smith, that I talked about, right? The guy who gets angry that the FBI hasn't shown up at his house yet. Now, by this point, he's so furious that he decides to take action. So he sends a letter to Tom Ridge, the chief of Homeland Security, where he says, hey, I'm a bio. I'm one of the top handful of bioweapons experts in the United States. I understand anthrax. And he describes the kind of whoever pulled off this attack. This is his work experience, and this is his educational background. And then he ends the letter by saying, this individual is me. Because this man has balls big enough to crush a Mack truck, right? Whoa. He is like, I could have done this easily. Why haven't you come to my house? And the FBI does go to his house at this point, right? Yeah. Obviously they don't find anything. He's innocent. But he accomplishes his goal, which is that the feds after him especially. And not that none of them, some of them had been looking in the direction of bioweapon scientists, but not enough. And he really gets them to churn their focus to Fort Detrick and another facility in Utah where weaponized anthrax was stored and scientists who knew how to do that shit worked, right? So kudos to je. Like the balls of sending a letter to the director of Homeland Security, being like, I am one of the only people in the country who could have pulled off this terrorist attack. What are you doing? Where are you?

[Courtney]

Also for Steve Hatfill, like, he always exaggerated his resume like 25 to 75%. So it's like they're gonna need to account for that.

[Robert Evans]

And that's gonna be one of the things that does. Is part of why he gets in hot water is that it's. Maybe some people will say he exaggerated his competence at making biological. Dry. Biological agents. And that may be part of why he got focused on. Although I don't really want to labor on that because again, this is the FBI's fault, not Hatfill's fault. So this does create a problem, the fact that the FBI is now focusing on the actual anthrax itself and on these scientists, because once they realize that's the kind of investigation this is, they also realize we don't have the equipment in house or the people to analyze anthrax properly. Like, we can't do this on our own. We have to use outside bioweapons laboratories. And the people working at them are all our suspects. Like, the only people that we can trust to analyze this stuff are also the people who might be weaponizing it, right? You see how this is a problem?

[Courtney]

This is a problem. What about the guy who wrote in?

[Robert Evans]

Right? Well, they do check in on him first they knock on his door, right? Like, they do check him out and he's like. And then they start talking to him and they start talking to other guys. And as they're interviewing these guys, they start to get like some hints, right? And this leads them, you know, because nothing else is working. They. They opt for the law enforcement equivalent of homeopathic medicine, which is criminal profiling. And the only things that they have to go on when they're trying to make a profile is the nature of the attack, that it's an anthrax attack. And the targets that were picked, right? As well as the handwriting and the messages left on the letters, Very little. And from this, the feds concluded that the terrorist was a middle aged white man with a scientific background who was angry at the government and picked his. So they'd make the news. And I think this is a case of after Smith reaches out to them and says it's definitely a scientist. They work backwards and are like, our analysts have come up with a profile, right, of this guy. Per the Washington Post, quote, it was likely. FBI analyst James Fitzgerald said that the criminal had timed the letters to take advantage of the 911 panic and hoped to use them to draw attention to his special as yet unknown cause. Now that's not super helpful.

[Courtney]

Was it totally unrelated?

[Robert Evans]

We don't actually know fully, but we'll get to that. Okay, I will say this is a thing where there's not a hundred percent answer as to what happened here. We still don't have a. We have a probable person who did it, who's dead now. But we don't know 100% who did it or why. We actually still don't. That's one of the weird things about this. But once investigators start going down this road and once they have this profile together, increasingly the name Steven Hatfill starts coming up in their interrogations of other scientists in their interviews. Because he's a middle aged white scientist who's just been fucked over by the CIA, right, because they denied him a top secret security clearance and then somebody got his security clearance taken away and that starts costing him work, right? He's getting it like he already has a cause to be angry is what people are saying, right? And once the FBI starts whittling their suspect list down, then they're hearing this guy's name over and over again. Hatfill's one of the few people who knows how, who could make this. And he's pissed off at the government right now, you know, now part of why his name comes up is I think he seems to have been, shall we say, maybe a polarizing guy in the workplace. There are some stories about him doing stuff like eating snacks while in his, like wearing his, like the full Hazmat suit. And like stories that he like, made out with a girlfriend at the biohazard facility and stuff. It's hard to tell how much of them are true, which is why I'm not laboring on them a lot. Cause like, once he becomes the public suspect, people just start saying shit about Steven Hatfill, right? What I think it's fair and safe to say is that he's a polarizing figure. And so a number of his colleagues. When the feds are like, one of you guys has to have done this, he's the name that comes up to some of his colleagues, right?

[Courtney]

Yeah, this guy's a weird asshole.

[Robert Evans]

That's, I think what is Basically happening is some of his colleagues think that. And that's how his name starts coming out right now. Hatfill's job at SAIC involved training Special Forces guys for encountering chemical and biological weapons labs and attacks. And as part of that, one of his duties was designing theoretical bioweapon dispersal devices. In essence, part of his job was to think like a terrorist and to build shit. Not long before the attack, he builds a backpack device that could spray germs in a combat situation. And obviously, any country with a large military is going to have guys doing stuff like this, right? Thinking up horrible things so you can figure out how to defend against them. That's the best way to look at it, right? But now that there's an anthrax attack, suddenly this guy who before had been doing a job that was, like, patriotic, seems a lot more suspicious, right? Well, this guy knows how to make terrorist weapons for a living. And we just had one of these attacks, and he seems angry at the government, maybe unstable. Now, once the FBI starts looking into Hatfill, they do uncover some of the same stuff that I brought up last episode, right. Both that this guy's in Rhodesia during that anthrax outbreak that he's got. I mean, the fact that he goes to Rhodesia at all, kind of sketchy like that, he's got this kind of weird history. They find out about the lecture that I talked about last episode in which Steve gave way too much detail on how you could sneak biological weapons into the White House using a wheelchair.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

Stories like that don't make you seem more innocent to the FBI in this scenario.

[Courtney]

Totally. But his grievances with the government, it's not with, like, the fucking tabloids.

[Robert Evans]

Yes. And again, when you think about it, it never made all that much sense that they were so certain it was this guy because there's never that much evidence. But they're desperate again, they missed 9, 11, and they're really under pressure to not fuck this up. And this is the only lead they've got. And it just seems like it really must be him. And I think part of it is that a lot of these FBI investigators, when they start talking to Hatfill's coworkers and reading up on him, they don't like him either. And so they decide the fact that they don't think he's a good person means that he must have done this. And those are two separate things, Right? Like, you can feel however you want about stuff. There's a lot of people I dislike that I don't think could weaponize anthrax or would.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

Now, obviously, there's some blame in the fact that Hatfill's resume, he listed himself as having a working knowledge of wet and dry biological agents, which is why he's on that short list of people who could have done this. But, you know, that was also his job.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

And even Hatfill has said he expected the FBI to look in on to him. He expected them to search his house. He was waiting for it.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

And so he's not surprised when they, like, get ahold of the fake bioweapons lab that he made for his training gig, and they test that to see if he made anthrax in it, and it turns up negative.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

But he's still their suspect. In November of 2001, a second letter is sent to Tom Daschle's office. Now, this one, they had new protocol, so they were irradiating the letters that came in at that point. So the powder is safe. I think it's been, like, rendered safe via irradiation by the time that they open it up. So it's not dangerous when they open it up.

[Courtney]

It'll just give you cancer, no problem.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, maybe I'll just give you cancer. I don't know. But this letter was sent from London. They know that much. And at the same time it's sent, Hatfill is in England training to become a UN weapons inspector in Iraq.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

Oh, fuck. So. And agents confirmed that he rented a car during his visit, which no one else in his group did. So that seems really suspicious.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

And so that one that does. Now, that is a thing where if you're a responsible agent working with that info, that's a reason to look into this guy. I think even Steven Hatfill would say, like, yeah, that's a thing you want to check up on right Now. Where things get more reachy is another package arrives a little later at a Nevada office from Microsoft with anthrax in it. And this one was mailed from Malaysia. And Steven's girlfriend at the time came from Kuala Lumpur. Now, she didn't live in Malaysia. Still, it's pretty thin stuff to be like, are you thinking he, like, roped her or a family member into like, but how did he get the anthrax over there? Like, what is the whole chain of custody you imagined for this anthrax attack that you're thinking he did because his girlfriend comes from? Like, that shows you how thin the FBI's evidence is, right? Like, that's like, okay, man, I don't know. I think you're reaching now, homie. But the fact that, you know, they've got. There's just enough here. You know, that thing about London is just suspicious enough that he never. No one ever overtakes him on their list. And so, by the start of 2002, Hatfill is not publicly suspect number one, but he's the FBI's only real suspect. And they've talked to enough of his former and current colleagues that a lot of people in his orbit know that he's being investigated very closely.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

He is aware that they're looking at him very closely. And this is where a molecular biologist and citizen investigator named Barbara Rosenberg enters the picture. Now, unlike most citizen investigators, Barb did have real qualifications. She was a biological arms control expert employed by the Federation of American Scientists. Chemical and Biological Arms Control Program.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

So fas, the Federation of American Scientists, has a chemical and Biological arms control program. She's with that. That. And this is a small field, as we've talked about. And given her position in that field, Rosenberg is aware that the FBI is questioning her colleagues, and she is hearing the same name over and over again that her colleagues are giving out and that the FBI is hearing. She's hearing Stephen Hatfill's name right now. The responsible thing for her to have done would have been to sit back and wait, because Barbara knew damn well that Hatfield was being looked at. But she didn't think the feds were looking hard enough. So she starts writing memos, which are effectively blog posts, and she's publishing them on the FAS website. She publishes the first in January of 2002, per an article in Salon by Anthony York. Rosenberg says her memos began as an effort to pressure the FBI, which she has repeatedly accused of dropping the ball in its investigation. I began just putting together the data that was available and discussing it on this email list. Then people started sending me information. I sort of became a center for collecting information on the subject, she says. So.

[Courtney]

All right, good on you, Barbara.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, you can see where this comes from. A good place. But you can also see that the whole citizen investigator thing can end badly a lot of the time, right? As in maybe. Maybe people are putting together stuff that doesn't need to be put together. Now, Rosenberg doesn't name Hatfill in any of the memos that she published online, but some of these she's sending directly to the feds. And she does describe him. She describes the likely culprit as someone who, quote, must be angry at some biodefense agent agency. And a couple of months later, in early spring 2002, she writes another memo. Early in the investigation, a number of inside experts, at least five that I know about, gave the FBI the name of one specific individual as the most likely suspect. That person fits the FBI profile in most respects. Now, she doesn't name Hatfill at this point, but she describes his background, history and personality in such detail that anyone tangential to their small world would have recognized him. Because it was so obvious who she was talking about, Hatfill opted not to publish this memo openly. She put it on a listserv operated by the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, which Salon describes as a place where bioweapons experts and journalists lurk to share theories on, among other things, the anthrax killer. Some of the theories that have been voiced on the listserv have found their way into media reports. Others have not. So she puts it, instead of publishing it openly, she puts it on basically a forum where she knows it's gonna find its way to the media. Right, and find its way to people in government and people in law enforcement. And you can critique her and Hatfill will for basically dropping the speculation in a place where it was guaranteed to get press attention while pretending that's not what I'm trying to do. And it does get a lot of attention. The Senate Judiciary Committee invites her to a closed door meeting with several FBI agents, including Roth. And we don't know precisely what's said in that meeting or if she names Hatfill, but that's what Hatfill believes, and with some good reason. Because the day after this meeting, June 25, 2002, FBI agents visit and search his apartment. Now, Hatfill had consented to allow agents to swab his apartment. He actually goes to the FBI offices to sign a consent form to let them swab for evidence of anthrax.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

Because he thinks it's of course, reasonable that they're looking into me. They should be. They should be looking into everyone at my level. And I want to clear up any suspicion immediately. Yes, you can swap my house.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

And that's what he thinks they're going to do when he gets back home. He sees that they've torn his apartment apart and that his apartment is surrounded by news vans. There's dozens of cameramen all around. Cause the FBI tipped off the press that they were raiding this guy. Because again, they need good pr. They need to be seen taking action to stop this. They need to be seen to have Caught the motherfucker, right? And they don't have enough to charge him yet. And I might say probably shouldn't be ruining people's names if you don't have enough evidence to charge them on anything. But they're kind of desperate. So again, this is like all of the stuff they're never supposed to do. The FBI is not supposed to comment on ongoing investigations, let alone tip the press off that they're going to be raiding someone's house that they have no fucking hard evidence on, right? Like they were so sure they were going to find something, I think is why they did it, right? But they don't find anything. Now, that said, the fact that nothing gets found here, the fact that he doesn't get charged, I think if you're a responsible reporter, I hope that if I was looking at this at the time, I'd have go, oh, well, maybe it must not be this guy, right? They searched his house. They didn't find any evidence of it. There's no evidence.

[Courtney]

He does have that girlfriend, but his.

[Robert Evans]

Girlfriend'S Malaysian, you know. So the media starts writing about Steven Hatfill at this point right now. They don't always name him for liability reasons, but they are aware too. And there's money to be made in writing about this. Cause this is the big case at the time. And one of the major guys who's really focusing on Steven Hatfill is Nicholas Kristoff of the New York Times, who we're all aware of this motherfucker. He starts publishing columns in which he names Hatfill Mr. Z and cites confidential sources, which are FBI agents, to make the case that Hatfill had only avoided arrest thus far because he was a white man and not an Arab national. Kristof also brought up Hatfill's relationship to Rhodesia and without evidence, accused him of participating in genocide. In a column framed as an open letter to the FBI, have you examined whether Mr. Z has connections to the biggest anthrax outbreak among humans ever recorded? The one that sickened more than 10,000 black farmers in Zimbabwe in 1978-80? There is evidence that the anthrax was released by the white Rhodesian army fighting against black guerrillas. And Mr. Z has claimed that he participated in the white army's much feared Selu scouts. Could rogue elements of the American military have backed the Rhodesian army in anthrax and cholera attacks against blacks. And like no, first off, the Rhodesian military used chemical and biological, Used cholera, weaponized it. We know they did. They did it and we Know how they did it? They wrote about it.

[Courtney]

None of this is a mystery column out.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, and we also. Hatfill's in college. When he's in Rhodesia, he doesn't know how to weaponize anthrax. He's like 20. Like, he's not a doctor yet. He was. If he served in the military, he was like, I think he did for a period of time. But he's like a private, right? Like, he's not heading up their bio. He's not a scientist. Then it's this classic like, well, he's a bioweapons expert now. So clearly when he was a child, he must have also been a bioweapons expert. Like, no, man, he was a college student. He didn't know shit yet.

[Courtney]

Crazy.

[Robert Evans]

That's so funny.

[Courtney]

Oh, my God. That's a hilarious reminder that, like, sometimes these people don't know shit about what they're talking about.

[Robert Evans]

No, no. That is the not knowing shit about fuck is the Nicholas Kristoff story in a nutshell. So Rosenberg insists that none of this, none of what happens to Hatfill after this point is her fault and that she took pains not to name him.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

Hatfill obviously feels differently. I think he's going to sue her after this. He's very angry about what she did and about Kristoff. And it is worth noting that in her memos, Rosenberg engages in similar kinds of conspiratorial thinking to Kristoff, per one that she put out in June of 2002. The suspect is part of a clique that includes high level former USAMRID scientists and high level former FBI officials. Some of these people may wish to conceal any suspicions they have about the identity of the perpetrator in order to protect programs and sensitive information. This group most likely agreed with David Franz, former commander of usamrit, when he said, I think a lot of good has come from it. The anthrax attacks from a biological or medical standpoint. We have now five people who have died, but we're about to put 6 billion into our budget into defending against bioterrorism. Oh, and like, that's a fucked up thing for David Franz to say, but she's alleging that, like, there's a conspiracy of FBI agents and scientists to carry out anthrax attacks to get money from the government.

[Courtney]

Right.

It's like, you're not supposed to say that part out loud.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, well, you gotta have more than seems right to me if you're gonna make that claim.

[Courtney]

Right.

So funny.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. So I would Argue, I think that these allegations. She's out on a limb here right now. Rosenberg does, right, that Hatfill's career setbacks caused by the CIA might be a motive. But and this is where it's incoherent is like she's both saying that, like, well, this guy's got a reason to be angry at the government because the CIA kind of fucked him over. But also he's in with a high level clique of scientists and feds who are going to cover up an anthrax attack together. Like, he both can't keep his security clearance and he's part of this conspiracy, which is because it seems like both can't happen, right?

[Courtney]

Like.

[Robert Evans]

At any rate, all of this has a calamitous impact on Steve Hatfill's life and career. In very short order, SAIC lets him go. This may have had roots in the fact that the CIA didn't consider him fit for a security clearance, a ball which had started rolling before the anthrax attacks, but that can't be all of it. The dia, the Defense Intelligence Agency, considered Hatfield their very best bioweapons expert. He is very highly regarded by them and they thought he is so indispensable that when SAIC lets him go for like laboratory etiquette violations, basically they begged to have him brought back as a contractor so that he can continue teaching classes to guys about to be deployed to Afghanistan. And SAIC agrees. Like, that's how much the DIA likes this guy. Now, because he's a qualified professional with in demand skills, Hatfill succeeds in getting another job. After he loses his position at SAIC very quickly, he's hired to be the associate director of a Louisiana State University program for training first responders in how to deal with terrorist attacks. However, the program is funded by a DOJ grant. And once the DOJ finds out Hatfill's gotten the job, they order LSU to cease and desist using him and the job offer is rescinded. So now he's lost his job and maybe he did something to justify it at saic. I've certainly heard that alleged. I don't know. But the second one is the DOJ saying, don't hire this guy because we think he's a terrorist.

[Courtney]

Right?

[Robert Evans]

And he hasn't been convicted of shit. Yeah, things only get worse from there. You know what else gets worse? Our sponsors.

[Courtney]

No shade.

[Bobby Bones]

Hey, it's Bobby from the Bobby Bones Show. I had an incredible time at this year's iHeartRadio music festival and even got the chance to hang out with Diplo and Bailey Zimmerman while I was there. Check this out. So how did Ashes come together? Diplo?

[Diplo]

Well, I kind of briefly met Bailey, I think at Morgan's show, one of them. And I think he's just the guy in Nashville. He's cool as hell and I had a new kind of sound I wanted to do and I think he's the one guy that could carry it. And I came to his house, I had a show, I pulled up real quick, he about to leave on tour, you're about to jump in your tour bus. And we had like three hours play the record for him. We kind of like got a scratch and then he handled it on his own on the road.

[Bailey Zimmerman]

Yeah, it was really cool. He really just like randomly showed up to my house and I'm like, oh hey diploma, what are you doing? He's like, I have a song that I want to show you. And I was like, okay. And then now we're here playing it live.

[Bobby Bones]

You can listen to the full episode out now, wherever you get your podcasts. And big shout out to my friends at Hyundai for making this possible. Had a blast cruising around festival weekend in the all new Palisade hybrid.

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[Robert Evans]

And we're back, and we're talking about Stephen Hatfill's life starting to unravel. Per an article in the Atlantic quote, other prospective employment fell through. No one would return his calls. One job vanished after Hatfill emerged from a meeting with prospective employers to find FBI agents videotaping them. His savings dwindled and he moved in with his girlfriend. So that is the fact that like, like coming out of a job interview to find FBI agents videotaping you. This is part of a tactic that the FBI uses. This is a known thing. Like, they talk about this. They train agents to do this. It's called bumper locking. And it's called bumper locking because the idea here is that you are physically surveilling someone 247 whenever they leave their house. And you are doing it so obviously that they know the whole time, right? And the reason you do that is so they'll slip up, up, right? So that they'll fuck up. They'll screw up when driving and they can get pulled over and searched. You can get them with some sort of petty charges then, right? Like you're just trying to make them fuck up. Cause you're sure they did whatever it is you suspect them of. And you just need to make them slip up, you know, like, that's why you do this. Now, we might call this harassment and abuse and, like, hideously unethical to do to a citizen who has not committed a crime as far as anyone's aware of, right? But this is what the FBI does. Brad Garrett, an FBI special agent at the time, explained to Frontline, quote, management was convinced he was the right guy. And so as a result, there were, you know, intense surveillance, bumper lock type surveillance of Dr. Hatfill that went on for months. Now, Hatfill would later allege that local law enforcement, presumably acting at the FBI's behest, harassed him as well. He was pulled over, heading back from dinner one night in D.C. and issued a warning for failing to signal a lane change. And then after he leaves that stop, like, like several minutes later, he's pulled over again for a turn signal related issue. And the cop asks if he's been drinking. And Hatfill says, I had a single drink with dinner. He gets ordered out of the car and immediately arrested. He tries to have, like, a blood alcohol test performed to prove that he's sober, but they won't let him do that, and he's forced to attend counseling and he spends the weekend in jail. Now, do I know that Hatfill was definitely sober during that stop? Of course not. And he will admit that as this nightmare went on, he began drinking more heavily. But I guess ultimately, I don't have trouble believing that the dragnet around him was more to blame for what happened than his personal habits, because what's going on here is insane now, because the bioterrorism weapons research world is a small one. Steve's social circle is made up of a lot of his colleagues. And so he loses that social circle because these people have to detach from him in order to avoid damaging their own careers. Because he is suspected of terrorism. One of the few colleagues who stuck with him is a guy named Jim Klein. And Jim says, basically, like I said, I stayed with him because I just thought he was gonna kill himself. He told the Atlantic, when you have the world against you and only a few people are willing to look you in the eye and tell you, I believe you. I mean, to this day, I really don't know how the guy survived.

[Courtney]

And that's so sad.

[Robert Evans]

It's a bummer. So five weeks after that first June raid where his house gets searched, the FBI searches his house again, this time with a warrant and dogs. And Hatfill makes the mistake of petting one of the dogs and the Dog reacts positively to him. And the agent handling the dog says he's identified you as the anthrax killer.

[Courtney]

Jesus Christ.

[Robert Evans]

What? As Stephen later recalled, it took every ounce of restraint to stop from laughing. They said, we know you did it. We know you didn't mean to kill anyone. I said, am I under arrest? They said, no, I walked out, rented a car, and went to see an attorney about suing the hell out of these people. Yes, but the. Yes. Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's a normal response, right? And he does. He does. And, you know, he gets. That's how this all ends. But it goes on for a long time before we get to that point. The raids continued. His storage locker gets raided by the FBI, and then a farm his dad owns gets raided by the FBI. The FBI raids his girlfriend's townhouse because he's living there. She later tells the Atlantic, they told me your boyfriend murdered five people as they tore through her home, destroying some of her valued possessions. So as August of 2002 dawns, the FBI has done all of this to Steven Hatfill and found no evidence linking him to the anthrax attacks or, as far as I'm aware, any crime at all. Now, at this point, you might say the whole FBI has been going after this one man to try to find a single connection to this crime, and we haven't found one. Maybe he's innocent, maybe he's not the guy.

[Courtney]

Right?

[Robert Evans]

You and I might think that, but that's not how Attorney General John Ashcroft thought. Now, John Ashcroft, being a crafty man, decides to do something that no U.S. attorney general has ever done. He decides to name the subject of an active investigation. And on August 6, 2002, he tells America that Steven Hatfill is a person of interest in the anthrax attacks.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

Which is basically saying, hey, everybody get him. This guy did it, you know.

[Courtney]

Incredible. I hope he got so much money.

[Robert Evans]

I. He does. I mean, and again, I don't like him. Now, he's in the Trump Admin. Now, I don't think he's a good person, but he is absolutely the victim here. Yes. So the harassment continues. Hatfill's phone is tapped. Surveillance cameras are installed outside his girlfriend's condo. When his lawyer offered to have Steven wear a tracking device, the Fed said no. They even turned down his lawyer offers, I'll let. Anytime he leaves the house, you can have FBI agents drive with him. And they're like, no. His attorney later alleged that the FBI was sweating him, trying to get him to Go over the edge. Given where Hatfill sits today in the Trump administration, it would be easy for me to just question his claims about what they did out of partisan disgust. But this really is one of the worst stories of federal overreach into a civilian's life I've ever read. The FBI is not supposed to comment at all in matters pertaining to ongoing investigations. But for Hatfill, not only do they name him, FBI agents keep leaking info, embarrassing shit that they find about him to the media. A lot of the quotes and stories about him come out initially because the FBI leaks them to people.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

All this stuff about kind of the sketchier parts of his back, like that's how some of that stuff gets out.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

And, you know, Hatfill's reputation isn't spotless, and I'm certainly not trying to, like, carry water for the guy, but also, basically, 100% of people, if the whole FBI started trying to uncover ugly things about them, would find some ugly things.

[Courtney]

Right?

Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

It's why it's fucked up for them to do stuff like that, you know, and the fact that he had a. He was a guy who had done some and said some stuff that wasn't great in the past does not justify the harassment that he faced from the fucking FBI. Per the Atlantic quote, with Hatfill's face splashed all over the news, strangers on the street stared. Some asked for his autograph. Hatfill was humiliated, embarrassed to be recognized. He stopped going to the gym. He stopped visiting friends, concerned that the FBI would harass them too soon. He stopped going out in public altogether. Once an energetic and ambitious professional who reveled in 14 hour work days, Hatfill now found himself staring at the walls all day. Television became his steady companion. I'd never really watched the news before, Hatfill says, and now I'm seeing my name all over the place and all these idiots like Geraldo Rivera saying, is this the anthrax animal? Is this the guy who murdered innocent people? You might as well have hooked me up to a battery. It was sanctioned torture.

[Courtney]

Jim Brody.

[Robert Evans]

This goes on for a full year and then a second year.

[Courtney]

Does this happen during Bush?

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, this is throughout the whole Bush administration. This goes on for years. Wild.

[Courtney]

He's not like radicalized against a Republican administration.

[Robert Evans]

No, I mean, I think he's anti. I don't think he likes the Bush admin very much. But like, again, a lot of Trump guys don't.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

And the whole distrust of the FBI thing, Trump has too, like, it makes a lot of sense why he winds up in Trump's orbit, Right? Like he's the only one who really has a justified reason to be as angry at the FBI as they all are.

[Courtney]

Totally.

[Robert Evans]

And the media, too, to be fair.

[Courtney]

You know.

[Robert Evans]

So Hatfill starts drinking more heavily, right? And his life narrows to obsessively watching the allegations against him in the news and blacking out.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

Eventually, In August of 2003, he takes offensive action. He sues the federal government. And this process winds on for a while, but it does. Eventually, he's able to get Special Agent Harp on the stand. And Harp has to admit that the FBI is going so hard after Hatfill because it was publicly seen as having fucked up in the face of several major terrorist attacks. And they needed something to, like, restore public confidence. All of these leaks to the press by the FBI were part of a strategy to rebuild that trust. Harpe himself admitted to speaking confidentially to more than a dozen journalists, you know, giving details of Hatfill's story. For their part, the press was happy to have articles. And guilty or not, Hatfill was a story. One reporter even called his girlfriend's former in laws because her husband had died like a year or two earlier, and they asked if they thought that Hatfill had murdered her husband, like their dead relative. Like, that's insane. Like, that's just crazy shit from a journalist. There's numerous other gotcha moments that fail to pan out in the years that Hatfill spends under investigations. Investigators found that he had been taking Cipro while staying in an isolated cabin, which sounds really suspicious, you know, why would he be taking this powerful antibiotic?

[Courtney]

He had a uti.

[Robert Evans]

He had like a nasal and sinus infection. Yeah, okay.

[Courtney]

Yeah, I only know Cipro from uts.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, well, it's good for other stuff, too.

[Courtney]

Okay, gotcha.

[Robert Evans]

And he also. This isolated cabin that the news described was like a three bedroom weekend home in Virginia that his friend owned, Right? Perhaps the craziest moment came near the end of 2002. Per the Washington Post, the FBI learned from a Hatfield business associate that he'd once talked hypothetically about how a smart person might dispose of materials contaminated with anthrax by throwing them in a body of water. The tip was specific enough to lead a team to the Frederick Municipal Forest in a network of ponds. Then solidly frozen agents sealed off bucolic country roads with crime scene tape. Then expert divers plunged in. Over the course of several frigid weeks, divers pulled up a collection of intriguing items. The most promising Was a plastic or plexiglas box that appeared to be fashioned into a crude scientific glovebox with holes cut into the sides to allow for gloved hands to work within it. Now, I found news reports at the time, several of them, that describe it this way as like, oh, it's a scientific plexiglass glove box, you know, for working on specimens that are dangerous to touch. Do you want to know what it seems like it actually was?

[Courtney]

Oh my God, I'm so nervous.

[Robert Evans]

It was probably a turtle trap. It's probably a turtle trap.

[Courtney]

Why did I think it was a jerk off machine? I was like, probably.

[Robert Evans]

I was closer to Courtney. We know. Virginia. Courtney, every lake is filled with jerk off machines. The FBI found one glove box and a thousand jerk off machines in these lakes. It was just divers bringing up jerk off machines all day long. Spent a third of their budget storing them. That was the FBI's real problem in 2003. Too many jerk off machines from the lakes. Incredible. So in spring of 2003, Hatfell was being driven by his girlfriend to a paint store when FBI agents bumper locking him ran a red light in a school zone during school hours when there were children out. Hatfill has his girlfriend pull over so he can take a picture of the agents and yell at them for endangering kids. The agents drive off and they drive off and because of how close they are to him, they run over his foot and injure him as they're doing it. And because he has no health insurance or savings, he turns down an ambulance ride right, to go to the hospital. And then Washington police who show up ticket him for, quote, walking to create a hazard. Because again, the whole security state is walking, is focused on this one dude, right? Like, again, I don't want to like fucking apologize for him in the present day, but how could this not blow your head up, right? The whole FBI and a lot of the security state outside of it being focused on just you, right? Like that would drive you crazy. That's a crazy thing to deal with.

[Courtney]

Now by 2000, he's justified.

[Robert Evans]

I understand a little bit right where he comes from here. By 2004, after two years without any leads, the investigation efforts against Hatfill started to ebb. He began to resume something that resembled a normal life, Even flying to Sri Lanka in early 2005 to help provide medical relief aid after a terrible tsunami. Gradually, he got his life back. But what he never got was an apology or an official announcement that he was no longer suspected of having done it.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

You know, by the time we hit, like, 2005, six, it's been years. I think most people who know him are like, that probably wasn't Steven. They probably would have arrested him by now if he had done it.

[Courtney]

Right?

[Robert Evans]

But they don't say anything.

[Courtney]

How long does the lawsuit take?

[Robert Evans]

I mean, the lawsuits are going on for years after he stops being the suspect, Right? Because once it's announced that he's no longer the suspect, it gets a lot easier to sue people, you know? And, you know, this is not a podcast about that of kind, so we're not gonna go into detail about it. But what I will say is that in 2007, the FBI brings in a new team to look at the case because the old one had not done the job.

[Courtney]

Right?

[Robert Evans]

And so after six years, they're like, we should probably get some new guys looking at this. Maybe we could solve it. You know? And this new team accept Hatfill's protestations of innocence, Right? Either they're just smarter than their colleagues, or they're legitimately smart and are like, what the fuck is wrong with you guys? Like, you didn't find anything and you kept harassing him for five years. The fuck is wrong with you? The most compelling piece of evidence against the idea that Hatfill had done this is that despite his expertise and despite what he did for a living, Steven Hatfill had never in his entire life had direct access to anthrax. He was a virus guy. It's a bacteria. This is not his kind of agent.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

He knows theoretically how to weaponize anthrax. Right. I think that's the claim that at least that he makes on his. I don't know how to do it, so I can't say that he could. But my understanding of his resume is that that he said that he had the ability to, but he had never worked with anthrax.

[Courtney]

Right?

[Robert Evans]

And there were guys who had. And those guys would be the ones that you'd suspect of this, right? So the FBI, at this point in time, they move to focusing. And it's one of those things. It's eventually made public that he's no longer being looked at. But they never like to be as to do the thing they should do, which you should make a full court press to be like, we fucked up, up, we're sorry.

[Courtney]

Right?

[Robert Evans]

That does not happen. But the FBI does stop looking at him. And they do. They. They eventually find another guy, a senior microbiologist at usamrid named Bruce Edward Ivins. Ivins is an anthrax Expert Anthrax was his specialty, right? He had actually consulted with the FBI when they started the investigation. And he's not someone that they had looked into previously, but now they start doing the same things to him that they did to Hatfill, right? They're bumper locking him. They're following. They're telling him that he murdered people, right? He loses his job and he doesn't have either. You know, I don't know if it's just his. His mental state. He's not as mentally stable as Hatfill, or he just doesn't have the support network. But In July of 2008, he checks himself into a psychiatric clinic for treatment of depression and anxiety. And then once he gets out, he takes a fatal dose of Tylenol and kills himself. He dies at 62, right? Now, if you ask the FBI, today, Ivan's did it, right? That's their conclusion. He killed himself because they were getting too close. He must have been the guy, right? Maybe.

[Courtney]

That's a lot of fucking Tylenol.

[Robert Evans]

Maybe he's the guy. We don't actually know. And this is the kind. This is where I have to tell you. We don't know who did the anthrax attack. Ivan's is the most likely name out there, but there's some reason, there's significant reason to doubt that it was him.

[Courtney]

You're just saying, like, maybe the mental strain of, like, being followed and fucked with like that.

[Robert Evans]

Yes. Yeah. And I'm also kind of insinuating maybe that was the FBI's goal with Hatfill. Maybe they cared. They didn't care so much did he do it. But, like, if he kills himself while we're investigating him. Him, we can say we got him. Obviously, he was the guy. An innocent man wouldn't kill himself. Case closed, we're heroes.

[Courtney]

How do these people sleep at night?

[Robert Evans]

I think that's kind of what the FBI was thinking with Hatfill, and I think they got their way with Ivins. Maybe he did do it again. There's a good chance he did, because it had to have been a guy like him, right? There's not a lot of guys it could have been. However, the National Academy of Science has since determined that it is not possible. Because the reason they think it's Ivan's is they basically trace back the specific type of AIM strain to a jar of anthrax that he made.

[Courtney]

Right?

[Robert Evans]

So the FBI is saying, we know the anthrax that killed those people was anthrax that Ivan's made, right? But in the years since they made that claim, the National Academy of Science has come out and. And with actual serious scientific data, said it's impossible to do that. Like, it's physically impossible to trace back the origin of an anthrax sample like the one that was collected from the letters the way that they're claiming they do, and tie it to Ivan's. Which doesn't mean he didn't do it.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

Again, he did have access to anthrax. There are a number of reasons that he may have done it. I'm very much smoothing out his case. There's a good chance it was him. But the current conclusion of the scientific community is we don't really know. Maybe it was this guy. But the FBI way oversold the degree of certainty that they had that it was this guy.

[Courtney]

Right.

There were probably other people that had access to it, too.

[Robert Evans]

There were some. And again, maybe it was Ivins. I don't know. The theory with Ivins is that, again, his program had suffered budget cuts, and he wanted there to be an anthrax attack so that they'd get more money, which they did.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

And that, you know, that may be why whoever did it, did it.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

Like, ultimately. But we just don't know who it was. And the investigation was so fucking botched from the jump that we'll never know. And, you know, one of the things we got out of this whole balance. I don't know where Steven Hatfill would have wound up politically if this hadn't happened. But I have. I'll say this. He's not a happier, healthier man because this all happened to him. Right.

[Courtney]

No.

[Robert Evans]

You know, this didn't make him better. It wouldn't make me better. Anyway, that's the story. How do you feel about the FBI?

[Courtney]

I feel like I was terrorized by the government a little bit. Jesus Christ.

[Robert Evans]

It's so funny seeing Cash again. This all continues because, like, the FBI under Cash Patel was desperate to, like, get this guy after Charlie Kirk got shot. Was desperate to, like, be the. Like, solve it.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

To have to the point that the second they took a guy into custody, Kash Patel announced. The director of the FBI announced, we've got the guy. We have the man who killed Charlie Kirk. And then, like an hour later, I used to be like, no, it totally wasn't that guy. Absolutely.

[Courtney]

And their names got out. Several different people they did that to. Do you think they got the right guy?

[Robert Evans]

Oh, yes, yes. Because he confessed to his dad who killed the man.

[Courtney]

Oh, right, right, right, right.

[Robert Evans]

Like, we're pretty sure it's him, but it had nothing. The FBI didn't do shit, right? Yeah, like his dad was the one who did this solve this caper. I mean, there's more to it than that.

[Courtney]

I hope somebody told that poor guy who's, like, still analyzing his handwriting.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, yeah, somebody's fucking looking at his handwriting on the bullets. Oh, man. Courtney got some pluggables to plug.

[Courtney]

Hey, y'.

All.

I am recording the audiobook of my debut memoir, Girl Gone Wild, and it's fucking good. I was worried for a second, but as I was reading it, I was like, this slaps. So anyway, get yourself a copy.

Hell yeah.

[Robert Evans]

Hell yeah. Get yourself a copy of Courtney's book witch Slaps. And then slap yourself. I don't know, maybe don't do that. But I don't care what you do. Do anything. You know, not anything. Don't do any of the things that we talked about in this week of episodes. No, for sure.

[Courtney]

Call your nice relatives if you want.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. Call a relative that you care about and talk to them about something that has nothing to do with the Internet. You know what, everyone go do that right now. And also buy Courtney's book.

[Courtney]

Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, Visit our website coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the Bastards is Now available on YouTube.

[Robert Evans]

New episodes every Wednesday and Friday.

[Courtney]

Subscribe to our channel YouTube.com behindthebastards.

[Bobby Bones]

Hey, it's Bobby from the Bobby Bones show. I had an incredible time at this year's iHeartRadio music festival and even got the chance to hang out with Diplo and Bailey Zimmerman while I was there. How did Ashes come together? Diplo?

[Diplo]

I pulled up real quick. He was about to leave on tour. You're about to jump in your tour bus and we had like three hours.

[Bailey Zimmerman]

It was really cool. He literally just like randomly showed up to my house and like, oh, hey, Diplo, what are you doing? He's like, I have a song that I want to show you. And I was like, okay, you can.

[Bobby Bones]

Listen to the full episode out now, wherever you get your podcasts. And big shout out to my friends at Hyundai for making this possible. Had a blast cruising around festival weekend in the all new Palisade hybrid.

[Robert Evans]

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[Robert Evans]

Use as directed.

[Jacob Goldstein]

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