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- [00:00]
Robert Evans
It's true that some things change as we get older. But if you're a woman over 40 and you're dealing with insomnia, brain fog, moodiness and weight gain, you don't have.
- [00:10]
Mia Wong
To accept it as just another part of aging.
- [00:12]
James Stout
And with MITI health, you can get.
- [00:14]
Robert Evans
Help and stop pushing through it alone. The experts at MIDI understand that all these symptoms can be connected to the hormonal changes that happen around menopause. And MIDI can help you feel more like yourself again. Many healthcare providers aren't trained to treat or even recognize menopause symptoms. MIDI clinicians are menopause experts.
- [00:34]
James Stout
They're dedicated to providing safe, effective, FDA.
- [00:38]
Mia Wong
Approved solutions for dozens of hormonal symptoms.
- [00:41]
James Stout
Not just hot flashes.
- [00:43]
Robert Evans
Most importantly, they're covered by insurance. 91% of MITI patients get relief from symptoms within just two months.
- [00:51]
Garrison Day
You deserve to feel great.
- [00:53]
Robert Evans
Book your virtual visit today@joinmidi.com that's join M I D I.com from the producers.
- [01:01]
Harley Quinn Smith
Who brought you Princess of South beach comes a new podcast, the Setup. The setup follows a lonely museum curator.
- [01:09]
James Stout
But when the perfect man walks into his life. Well, I guess I'm saying I like you, you like me.
- [01:15]
Kevin Smith
He actually is too good to be true.
- [01:18]
James Stout
This is a con.
- [01:18]
Israel Gutierrez
I'm conning you to get the Dlamma painting.
- [01:20]
Mia Wong
We could do this together.
- [01:24]
Harley Quinn Smith
Listen to the setup on the iHeartRadio.
- [01:26]
Kevin Smith
App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:30]
Israel Gutierrez
I'm Israel Gutierrez and I'm hosting a new podcast, Dub Dynasty, the story of how the Golden State warriors have dominated the NBA for over a decade.
- [01:39]
Ella Yurman
The Golden State warriors once again are NBA champions today.
- [01:44]
Israel Gutierrez
The warriors dynasty remains alive in large part because of a scrawny 6 foot 2 hooper who everyone seems to love for what Steph has done for the game.
- [01:52]
Mia Wong
He's certainly on that Mount Rushmore.
- [01:54]
Israel Gutierrez
Come revisit this magical warrior's ride. Listen to Dub Dynasty on the iHeartRadio.
- [02:00]
James Stout
App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey kids, it's me, Kevin Smith.
- [02:07]
Lex McMenamon
And it's me, Harley Quinn Smith.
- [02:08]
James Stout
That's my daughter, man, who my wife has always said is just a beardless version of me. And that's the name of our podcast, Beardless Me. I'm the old one, I'm the young one. And every week we try to make each other laugh really hard. Sounds innocent, doesn't it? Lot of cussing, a lot of bad language. It's for adults only. Or listen to it with your kid. Could be a family show. We're not quite sure. We're still figuring it out.
- [02:28]
Lex McMenamon
It's a work in progress.
- [02:29]
James Stout
Listen to Beardless me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [02:38]
Ella Yurman
Media. Hey, everybody. Robert Evans here. And I wanted to let you know.
- [02:41]
Robert Evans
This is a compilation episode.
- [02:44]
Ella Yurman
So every episode of the week that just happened is here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you can make your own decisions.
- [03:02]
Harley Quinn Smith
Welcome to It Could Happen here. It is continuing to happen. Stonks. But we will discuss Stonks probably late later this week. This episode's gonna be much more fun because I am pleased to have returning to the show Ella Yurman, writer, comedian and creator and host of Going down with Ellie Earman, a trans political comedy news show, as well as joining us here is Teen Vogue's news and politics editor, Lex McMenamon. Welcome, both of you.
- [03:32]
Lex McMenamon
Hi.
- [03:32]
Israel Gutierrez
Hi.
- [03:33]
Kevin Smith
Thanks.
- [03:34]
Harley Quinn Smith
So we're going to be talking about the recent Teen Vogue special issue cover story on Vivian Wilson, the estranged daughter of Elon Musk. Ella, you put together a fantastic piece last month, and this is what we're going to discuss, how this article came together, that viral photo shoot in Japan, which is fantastic, all the styling in that shoot was lovely. But I think this, this particular piece was really relevant for, like, trans people and also relevant because of the way, like, global politics has been shaken up by a few specific people. And focusing in on Vivian, I think, was really special. So I guess I would first like to hear about, like, yeah, like, the broad strokes of how this first came.
- [04:22]
Kevin Smith
Together from our perspective. You know, I don't know that, like, everyone is aware of this, and certainly I don't know that all of my friends in our various trans subcultures know this, but at Teen Vogue, we've been covering, like, trans politics and trans rights for a long time. Like, yeah, far before I got here. But I've been here for almost four years, and it's been a pretty big part of my beat, in part because of it being, like, a very unavoidable thing within following, like, US State legislatures and then obviously, like, at the federal level, which has only intensified more and more in the last year. And so that's, like, one aspect of it. But at the same time, we love young people that shitpost. And so Vivian had been on our radar for a while.
- [05:00]
Harley Quinn Smith
Totally.
- [05:01]
Kevin Smith
I also think People are maybe more aware of this whole like comrade Teen Vogue vibe of like, we're really interested in talking to people that have a clear political leaning, that have like a sense of, of how they see themselves in the world in a political context. And Vivian sort of came right out the gate as someone who was really eager to share her thoughts on these things. So from last summer, like within like a month of when Vivian was kind of introduced to the world through her father, talking about her on Jordan Peterson's podcast, we were trying to get in touch with her and it was something I was talking a lot about within the office. And we didn't really know what to do because she was just kind of, she just kind of emerged from, from nowhere onto the Internet. And so I had been talking about it a lot, including with Ella, because we talk a lot. And so Ella eventually revealed like, oh, that's oomphy. I am mutuals with Vivian, not oomphy. You did kind. I mean substantively, it's.
- [05:59]
Harley Quinn Smith
Are you threads oomphies? What? Are you oomphies on Instagram? Instagram. Nice.
- [06:04]
Lex McMenamon
I would never use threads. My God.
- [06:06]
Kevin Smith
So over to you. That's my Teen Vogue intro. But Ella, if you wanna.
- [06:10]
Harley Quinn Smith
Yeah, no, because. Yeah, I am interested in contacting Vivian because she was certainly getting like an unhinged number of media requests starting last summer.
- [06:19]
Lex McMenamon
Yeah, that's, that's true. Right, so she did that one NBC interview after, after Elon went on. Peterson and I do not work at Teen Vogue, but Lex and I know each other because you're contractually obligated to know everyone else who's part of the, you know, Deep State Illuminati doing trans politics online club.
- [06:37]
Kevin Smith
Yeah, I was just going to say Trans people club.
- [06:39]
Harley Quinn Smith
The pronoun.
- [06:40]
Kevin Smith
So Deep State.
- [06:41]
Harley Quinn Smith
Yeah, the pronoun. We're all established members, right?
- [06:45]
Lex McMenamon
We swear allegiance once a year. There's a whole ritual. Don't, don't worry about it. So when I got in touch with Vivian last fall, which I got in touch with her initially to see if she would come on Going down, and I reached out to her and I said, do you want to come on my live comedy show? And she said, no. I'm actually not sure live comedy is for me. I'm a little worried I'm not funny enough. And since then she has changed her mind. She's told me repeatedly that she regrets saying that to me, that she has decided she actually is funnier than everyone else alive. All of the things that a prolific 20 year old poster Might say, absolutely. But so I got in touch with her, and then she said no, And I was like, okay, well, at least I have this mutual now. And then a few months later, I mentioned to Lex that I gotten in touch with her, and Lex said, okay, so she doesn't want to do a live comedy show that nobody.
- [07:40]
Kevin Smith
That nobody knows about does not want to do a live comedy show.
- [07:44]
Lex McMenamon
What if instead. Instead we did a really fancy photo shoot and put her in Teen Vogue, a legacy journalism magazine? And I said, honestly, I think that's a better sales pitch. And. And it was.
- [07:54]
Harley Quinn Smith
Yeah, no, it is. It is really compelling. I mean, that the photo shoot pulls a whole bunch of people in. It's certainly. If I was in Vivian's position, that would be interesting to me. And it does help spread around.
- [08:05]
Ella Yurman
Like.
- [08:05]
Harley Quinn Smith
Like, so much of the piece is talking about, like, the struggles of living as a young trans person in America and the fact that you can use a Teen Vogue photo shoot to spread writing about that around the Internet is super, super useful.
- [08:20]
Lex McMenamon
Yeah. I mean, I just want to second what Lex has been saying. I think the work Teen Vogue has been doing is really important. So many. I mean, Garrison, you know, so much trans media is independently distributed and, like, diy, and I love us for that. But it is always really heartening to see, like, mainstream media institutions uplift trans voices the way Teen Vogue has been doing.
- [08:42]
Kevin Smith
And it's also like, Conde Nast as an institution, which is like, Teen Vogue's parent company is only one of multiple media conglomerates that will very proudly, like, use trans people in a representative way, like, and, like, sell magazine covers with trans people on it. Like, you can think of Hunter Schaeffer, for example. She's been on the COVID of several Vogues, but at the same time, Hunter Schaeffer also received a misgendering passport after the Trump admin. So, like, I think that if legacy media is unwilling to connect the dots between, like, profiting off of, like, the aesthetics of trans people, but not actually, like, talking about the political underpinnings of, like, why trans people are even able to be visible at this time and, like, what the, you know, trapdoor, as Tourmaline calls it, of trans visibility means, then it's, like, why even do this work in the first place? So Vivian was, like, a really great opportunity for us to, like, build on. Like, we've done several photo shoots, particularly with trans women, because I. And trans girls at Teen Vogue, because we, like, feel very strongly. And Ella makes this point in the piece that, like, the way that trans femme people are, like, objectified and commodified and also, like, the target of such extreme vitriol is something it feels really important to take a stand against. It just felt like doing this with Vivian, who's so high profile, but also hadn't had the opportunity yet to take control of her own narrative in the public eye. And with this being her second ever interview, first ever photo shoot, like, it just felt like a really big opportunity that was worth using as a big swing, you know?
- [10:03]
Harley Quinn Smith
No, like, she is at, like, the center of this, like, matrix of trans commodification in so many ways. Like, like, this. This special issue is the first time Vivian was really, like, framed as the subject matter of, like, any piece and, like, framed as her own person for the entirety of her adult life. She's been used as this rhetorical object, like, both by her dad, but as well as, like, by people on the left who's, like, objectified Vivian to use her as a bludgeon against her father.
- [10:31]
Kevin Smith
Totally.
- [10:32]
Harley Quinn Smith
And, yeah, like, people are very willing to, like, commodify or use. Use trans people in certain ways, but. But to have, like, trans people writing about other trans people in a way that frames them as a subject matter is so important.
- [10:46]
Lex McMenamon
Yeah, I mean, I think Vivian. One of the things that drew me to the story in the first place is that Vivian's sort of case is such an interesting microcosm of the trans experience as a whole. Yeah, she's incredibly talked about for something that is not her fault and not under her control at all. In the same way that right now, on the national stage, like, trans femininity and transness at large, but specifically, trans femininity is the, like, problem to be spoken about, especially by conservatives. Like, Butler calls it a phantasm, like gender. Nonsense. I read that book.
- [11:20]
Kevin Smith
You have my copy, I think.
- [11:23]
Lex McMenamon
I'm almost certain I do.
- [11:24]
Harley Quinn Smith
That that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense.
- [11:27]
Lex McMenamon
Almost certainly.
- [11:27]
Harley Quinn Smith
That's the trouble with gender, right?
- [11:29]
Lex McMenamon
Gender trouble. Yeah. No, no, that's the original book. It's who's Afraid of Gender?
- [11:32]
Kevin Smith
Who's Afraid of Gender. Thank you very much.
- [11:36]
Lex McMenamon
I have your book, but I haven't looked at it in a long time, except for to remember the word phantasm. And so, yeah, I totally agree with what Lex said of. It's really exciting to sort of, like, take her out of being used as a prop and give her own voice back. I think one of the most exciting moments in the piece, to me is the moment where I ask her about sort of the allegations that Elan, like, shifted rightward because of her. And she pushes back against sort of that narrative very strongly. And I think that is the way we've seen her being used both on the left and the right as sort of a. This is why he's doing this. It's clearly the fact that he has this 20 year old trans girl and she's like, actually, that's a crazy thing to say about a 20 year old.
- [12:19]
Harley Quinn Smith
Well, and especially to like counter the narrative of her life that's been driven by Walter Isaacson's 2023 biography, which is so hostile. And to have like a prominent, like a prominent biography like that, like trying to make a narrative out of, out of your existence. And it was something you have like, no, like input in no control. And that's like so demeaning. It's also like a very like, you know, trans misogyny moment as well. Like, yeah, it is interesting how much of like, Vivian is so relatable. Like, like a lot of trans people have, shall I say, challenging relationships with their parents. Maybe not to this extreme, but. But sometimes, frankly.
- [12:59]
Mia Wong
Right.
- [13:00]
Harley Quinn Smith
Like there's a lot of people are forced to cut off contact with their family.
- [13:04]
Kevin Smith
Yeah, no, I've just been thinking a lot about this because, you know, Trump released yet another executive order, I think that this one was today basically trying to codify allowing trans youth to access gender affirming care as abuse, quote, unquote, which is like something that the Republican party has been flagging for months, that they were going to do at the federal level as well. It has already shown up in the rhetoric around trans youth health care, which obviously is going to be used as just for targeting trans adults, access to health care. And something that, you know, I'm the only trans person on my team. Something that kept coming up in Vivian's story was that it was almost like anyone could relate to this because anyone can relate to having like a shitty parent, an abusive parent, like a bad dad, whatever. And so I think there's an extent to which this story has like a lot of value in like forcing CIS people to really be confronted with the fact that like, how trans youth are treated, like, objectively is like abusive. And it's not the access to health care that is the abuse. It's like the way that they're dismissed, it's the way they're belittled, it's the way they can't even be like, trusting their own parents to be looking out for them. And to the extent that they have to push themselves out into the world to clarify that point. So, like, that's one aspect of it. I totally agree with what you were both saying that it is, like a microcosm of the trans experience. But I do think there's, like, this other valence for, like, allowing her to, like, control how this is being perceived or received sort of by CIS media and, like, cis, like the CIS political sphere, which is, like, how trans people are just getting shoved into that over and over and over again with very little context. Felt like a really valuable thing to be able to do given how, like, frankly, so much of my coverage right now just feels like it's like trying to raise attention to the fact that, like, these are kids, these are young people. Like, everyone should be able to relate to a young person saying, like, I have a bad parent, and that sucks and is a formative thing for me. Like, that is something that, like, other children are afforded the ability to do. And, like, we just don't let trans kids, like, have that as something that's part of their truth when it's such a key part of, like, growing up trans in a hostile household.
- [15:11]
Harley Quinn Smith
And something like Vivian talked about at length is, like, as someone who did transition as a minor, there's all this, like, villainization around whether that's. Whether that's puberty suppressing hormones, whether that's having hrt, and how, like, the landscape that, like, me, like, her, Ella, and like, a lot of people that our age, like, came out of is not going to exist for the next generation of, like, trans kids, or at least it's going to be very different. And we need to do everything we can to stop it from being as bad as what it looks like it's going to be. And Vivian, like, talked about this at length in the piece with the restriction of puberty blockers, all the stuff in schools, and this, this complete demonization of not just the healthcare, but also, like, the people like trans kids as, as this own demon of America that's. That's. That's like invading or is, like, threatening. So I, I think it is really cool of Vivian to talk about that at length in the special Teen Vogue cool photo shoot article.
- [16:11]
Lex McMenamon
I will say, I think, yeah, I think it's so important that. That that's talked about, and I'm glad she did. I'm also really glad, as someone who covers, like, trans politics and news all the time, it was such a breath of fresh air to be able to frame this piece as, like, a look into what, like, the joy of transition Looks like. And looking at, like, totally.
- [16:30]
James Stout
Yeah.
- [16:30]
Lex McMenamon
How her transition has brought her closer to the life she wants to be living. And I'm not that old, but like, talking to someone who's a few years younger than me and who transitioned at an earlier stage in life gave me like such a beautiful vision of what the future could look like if we, if we fix some of the bullshit that's going on these days. All right, I'm being, I'm being clowned on in the chat. I'm not that much older than Vivian, is what I meant. And now I'm picking my microphone and the podcast going to sound terrible. Look, what. This is your fault. I'm not that much older than Vivian, but she started transitioning at a much younger stage of life than me. And to see like, what that has done for her and like the way, I don't know, it was just really beautiful to talk to like a 20 year old girl and be like, oh, you're like trans. But it's like, it's like not actually that big of a deal.
- [17:18]
Kevin Smith
And it like, it also like, confirms a thing that like, I mean, I made a joke about this earlier with like, we love young people that shit post. But like, I think so much of liberal and right wing talking points about, like, young people in general, like, sees them as so humorless. Like they are like, cancel culture, like nonsense. Whereas Vivian is so funny. Like, we actually struggle to cut jokes out of the piece. Like Ella and I, Ella could tell you we went back and forth for hours about so many jokes that did not. And just one liners, like, she's so quippy and so, like, so funny. She's extremely funny.
- [17:48]
Harley Quinn Smith
A very dense style of humor. As in, like, there's a lot of. There's a lot packed in like almost every other sentence.
- [17:54]
Lex McMenamon
Lex and I are both some of the fastest talking people I know. And I would put Vivian in that same group of people who can keep up with us or out talk me.
- [18:03]
Harley Quinn Smith
That comes across in the writing too. Like the way that the interview is transcribed, you can, you can read that pace into the piece.
- [18:11]
Lex McMenamon
She's awesome. So much of our editing was just like sort of taking out. Yeah, like little jokes or like she's 20, so she is swearing all the.
- [18:20]
Kevin Smith
Time or dude, the amount of cursing I much love. But also that was. The editing process for this was much less like stress and more just like, how many f bombs are we keeping today? Heart hand emojis.
- [18:33]
Lex McMenamon
The way edits go is you send in a piece and the editors Give you, like, change some stuff, and then I get to look at a new draft, and I get to be like, hey, why did you change that? And then we go back and forth over and over again until eventually it's not up to me anymore. But at one point, I did have to. I did have to say, actually, femboy is one word correct? Yeah, it's different from femme. Space boy.
- [18:52]
Harley Quinn Smith
Femme.
- [18:54]
Lex McMenamon
Something specific. And I felt really like I was bringing.
- [18:57]
Kevin Smith
I'd like to clarify. I was not involved in the grammatical edit of that. There were multiple editors whose hands that.
- [19:03]
Harley Quinn Smith
As a subject matter expert, what can I say?
- [19:06]
Lex McMenamon
I said, excuse me, Conde Nasty. Femboy means something.
- [19:10]
Harley Quinn Smith
No. I am so happy that we have someone like Vivian who's able to appreciate drag way more than what I'm ever, like, able to. Even though I can, like, appreciate it, like, on, like, a conceptual level, having this, like, complete, sincere, like, engrossment in it is so. Is so thrilling because a significant portion of this piece is talking about how much Vivian loves track.
- [19:33]
Lex McMenamon
Oh, my God. And. And so much.
- [19:36]
Kevin Smith
Ella knows nothing about drag also, so that was, like, a really good combo for all of us.
- [19:41]
Lex McMenamon
That was. I. Yeah, I sat down with her, and we started talking, and very, very quickly she brought up RuPaul's Drag Race. And I would just like. She kept calling it rpdr, which I'm pretty sure I've. Don't even get into this right now, Garrison. Is that something you call Drag Race? Have you heard RPDR said out loud?
- [19:58]
Harley Quinn Smith
I've never heard this.
- [19:59]
Mia Wong
No.
- [19:59]
Kevin Smith
Okay, whatever. What I'm. What I'm here to say is, as someone who actually watches Drag Race, Ella, that is actually not uncommon to refer to it that way. But, you know, we had two different roles as the two trans people whose brains were wiped by this story. Ella's job was to actually write the piece, and mine was to interface with Vivian about Drag Race.
- [20:19]
Lex McMenamon
About Drag Race.
- [20:20]
Kevin Smith
So clearly, it all came together the way it was supposed to.
- [20:23]
James Stout
I did.
- [20:23]
Lex McMenamon
At the very end of our first call, I said to you, is there anything else you want to say? And she talked to me for another 15 minutes about drag Race specifically.
- [20:31]
Harley Quinn Smith
A classic rules.
- [20:32]
Kevin Smith
A classic rules. Yeah.
- [20:34]
Lex McMenamon
I was like, I know. I, like, sort of meant about your dad or about, like, any of the important things. We talked about this, like. No. So in season 15 of Drag Race, that rules.
- [20:44]
Harley Quinn Smith
That's so cool.
- [20:46]
Kevin Smith
She's the best.
- [20:48]
Harley Quinn Smith
But no, it's. It's so funny that you talk about how, like, there's this. There's this caricature of, like, humorless trans people, which is very funny because, like, all of, like, the biggest shit posters online right now are mostly trans women. The trans comedy scene is, is huge. And, like, this is something that Vivian talks about, like, spending the COVID lockdown in, like, online queer communities and how how, like, the, the like, drama and like, conflict in those spaces trains you for how to be, like, really, like, funny and snappy. How fighting with. With like, like fellow queer teenagers, like, like, prepared you for. For that. Which has, like, certainly been, like, my experience.
- [21:30]
Lex McMenamon
I mean, there's a reason you can sort of tell, and I'm sure this applies to beyond trans people, but you can sort of tell which social media you grew up on. Like, if you were a totally Tumblr teen or a Reddit teen or a 4chan teen, you can tell because your style of fighting and making jokes changes because it's, it's. It's such a deeply formative part of it. And I, I don't know what online forums the right were on growing up, but they were the wrong ones.
- [21:57]
Harley Quinn Smith
Well, a lot of 4chan as well.
- [21:59]
Lex McMenamon
Sure. Just the not funny parts, not the not fun.
- [22:03]
Harley Quinn Smith
Yeah, no, I'm still trying to untrain my, like, defensive way of writing that I learned on Twitter because it's a horrible style where you. Horrible style of writing.
- [22:11]
Lex McMenamon
You have to, like, have like, 12 prefaces.
- [22:13]
Harley Quinn Smith
Exactly. Yeah, yeah.
- [22:15]
Lex McMenamon
Article one, I am not a racist.
- [22:18]
Harley Quinn Smith
Waffle pancaking the entire time. Which is. It's weird because, like, it's like Twitter does have its own style of humor, which I also, like, also, like, picked up on. But it also has that defensive style of writing which, which needs to get untrained. But it is, you know, a work, a work in progress.
- [22:32]
Lex McMenamon
I think it's downstream of Tumblr. I remain strong on my stance that the Tumblr porn ban ruined the Internet.
- [22:38]
Harley Quinn Smith
No, absolutely absolute. I guess I'd like to talk a little bit more about, like, the structure of the piece and how it succeeded so much in putting Vivian as a subject. Right. Because, like, the first half is written in more of, like, a traditional, like, article format to give context and frame Vivian as, like, a person. But then halfway through, it switches to, like, a back and forth interview which allows Vivien to just speak for herself. And I think having both of those and not just one or the other strengthens the piece entirely and strengthens, like, being able to see Vivian as a complete person. Because, like, as I'm. As I'm getting the context, like, for her life and the political situation in the first half. Then I get to see how much she reminds me of, like, regular 20something trans girls and, you know, like, half of the friends I have. Though I do disagree on Team PETA. Pete is a bitch boy. It's Team Gale all the way.
- [23:42]
Lex McMenamon
Thank you.
- [23:43]
Kevin Smith
Controversial.
- [23:44]
Harley Quinn Smith
All right, all right, all right. I'm excited that we agree on this, but those sorts of offhand comments and there's other things that give you a view into this person. It's so useful to have at least 50% of the piece be this just straight interview.
- [24:05]
Kevin Smith
We unsurprisingly talked a lot about how we were going to structure this piece and partially landed on Q and A format for, like, we knew this was going to be a behemoth, like, no matter how we tackled it, given the subject matter. And then ultimately how long the transcript was. And, you know, just like, there were many aspects of this that, like, we were like, okay, how do we do this in a way that's going to read well to people? Because something we also think about a lot is, like, accessibility. Like, young people famously hate reading. Now, we. But we wanted this to actually be something that, like, a young person could sit down, dash through, still get some, like, you know, historical, political context out of, and still come away being like, haha, Team PETA, Team Gail, or whatever the hell.
- [24:48]
Ella Yurman
Right.
- [24:48]
Kevin Smith
And so.
- [24:48]
Harley Quinn Smith
And maybe have like, subway surfers on, like, another phone at the same time.
- [24:51]
Kevin Smith
Yeah, exactly. Yes, exactly, exactly. And then I would say the I want Ella to talk about the transcript and, like, interview stuff. But, like, the intro, I think, is probably where I spent the most of my time editing this piece and, like, adding stuff. And a lot of adding stuff. It ballooned, like, we wanted this to be a lot shorter than it was. And then it just kept feeling like there were more pieces to really tie it together. But I would say, like, the reason that was the case is because it was a really hard line to walk to acknowledge that, like, people would be clicking on this in part because of Elon, but that we wanted to, like, trick them into coming for Elon but staying for Vivian.
- [25:31]
Harley Quinn Smith
Yeah, like, it's. It's not about Elon, nor, like, should it be.
- [25:34]
Kevin Smith
Yeah, right. And so, like, one, like, Ellen and I had a zoom with Vivian in what, November was the first one, or was that it?
- [25:41]
Lex McMenamon
I think so, yeah.
- [25:42]
Kevin Smith
November, December, to just like, so she could kind of get our vibe and just kind of suss out if she was willing to, like, consider this at all. And one of the Earliest things she said was like, I don't really want to talk about him. I don't want this to be about him. And we were really down for that. Like, we don't think that her story is about him. Ultimately it felt really important and it was also challenging to make sure that we felt like people were coming away from this without like a garbled interpretation of what the stakes were for her to be coming forward. Like we wanted it to be, especially right now, while so much of mainstream media is really fumbling their coverage of like politics at this moment, it felt really important to be like super, like trans politics, especially. Especially. And then also just like all of it. So like all of it and then especially trans politics. We just really wanted the intro to be like, as strong and also like informative and also like kind of funny and also like just all the things because. And I would say that probably took the most time. Ella, correct me if I'm wrong, but.
- [26:40]
Lex McMenamon
Yeah, I mean, I think the intro started off as probably an eighth of the piece and yeah, now is closer to a half of the piece. And there were so many hands on it. I wrote like sort of a very loose, like skeleton of what that intro ended up being.
- [26:56]
Kevin Smith
I and I would say the most. Like it wasn't that many people adding text. It was mostly me, it was mostly likes.
- [27:03]
Lex McMenamon
But part of that is because, I mean, everything like said, but also that Musk is currently a high level government official and is in the news all the time. I mean, when we started writing the intro said that Musk had 13 children and that we had to update that twice.
- [27:19]
Harley Quinn Smith
New kid just dropped.
- [27:20]
Lex McMenamon
Yeah, over the edit process, things wouldn't stop happening. And then also Vivian wouldn't stop posting, which was a little bit frustrating. At one point I had to DM her. I said, hey, if you get any more information, can you please just tell me and not post it on threads? And she said, oh, totally.
- [27:42]
Kevin Smith
That girl is a poster.
- [27:44]
Harley Quinn Smith
Poster and heart.
- [27:46]
Lex McMenamon
But yeah, I mean, I think I really love the balance the piece found in the end. Early on when we were talking about structure, I think I pushed for more of a standard profile. Mostly because, you know, then I get to show off my writing skills more. And I like to write. But after talking to Vivian, even after our early pre interview, but certainly after the full interview where I sat with her for a very long time over Zoom and a 14 hour time difference, I immediately was like, no, if I write this out, it's going to be mostly dialogue anyway, because her voice, she's so voicey. And it's so fun to keep it in, in that voice.
- [28:19]
Harley Quinn Smith
She has a very, very distinctive voice.
- [28:21]
Lex McMenamon
Yeah.
- [28:21]
Kevin Smith
Yeah. And so do you, Ella. And so like, it's like, that's really the strength of the piece in so many ways is that like, people come away with it. It doesn't feel like you're in the background or like hiding behind something when you're writing this piece. Like, it very much feels like the success of it is because you are a part of it. And the New York Times reported that this was Ella's first freelance article. So I just wanted to add that, you know, Ella kind of did her. Did her big one with her first article.
- [28:47]
Lex McMenamon
Thanks.
- [28:47]
Harley Quinn Smith
No, this is.
- [28:48]
Lex McMenamon
Now everything I said for the next 15 years will be underwhelming.
- [28:52]
Harley Quinn Smith
It's all downstream from here.
- [28:54]
Mia Wong
Woo.
- [28:55]
Lex McMenamon
It's not true. Barron Trump, I'm coming for you.
- [28:57]
Harley Quinn Smith
You're gonna re. Enroll at nyu.
- [29:00]
Lex McMenamon
Exactly. They'll never see me coming.
- [29:03]
Harley Quinn Smith
I am waiting for him to get fixed by like a bisexual she they. It's gotta happen, right? I know. I don't think so.
- [29:10]
Lex McMenamon
I don't know. Obama was like into a bisexual she they. And he still.
- [29:14]
Harley Quinn Smith
Yeah, yeah.
- [29:15]
Lex McMenamon
Bombed the Middle east or whatever.
- [29:17]
Harley Quinn Smith
But no, like, like mainstream coverage is just completely failing trans people right now. I got so mad at a Washington Post article yesterday that I, that I skied it about it. Something I never do.
- [29:27]
Kevin Smith
Was it the sports one? Yes. Playing girl after.
- [29:30]
Harley Quinn Smith
After President Donald Trump banned transgender girls from competing in girl sports, a Virginia high schooler joins the boys team. She wasn't gonna let the president's executive order stop her. Framed as like a feel good story. Fucking infuriating.
- [29:45]
Kevin Smith
And it's so like transparent, like. And I again, I, I feel like I keep bringing the CIS into the space. I'm really sorry. One of my like, CIS colleagues was like, this is disgusting. Why did they write this, like a feel good story? And it's like, my thing is, is if, like, if anyone with some amount of critical thinking skills can see exactly through what you're doing, why even do it? Like, it's so transparent, like the way that that story was written.
- [30:05]
Lex McMenamon
Because it gets clicks.
- [30:07]
Kevin Smith
I mean, I guess we, you know what got clicks was Vivian. So I actually don't know about that.
- [30:13]
Lex McMenamon
That's true. And say that. And say that.
- [30:14]
Kevin Smith
And I did. And I will.
- [30:16]
Harley Quinn Smith
Do you want to talk about the length of the transcript? Because I am curious how long Vivian talked for.
- [30:21]
Lex McMenamon
Am I, am I allowed to say your looks. I think I'm legally Not allowed to say. Can we explain why when we're not recording?
- [30:28]
Kevin Smith
I can explain why.
- [30:29]
Lex McMenamon
Okay. I think I got to say most of what I wanted to say. I mean, I think Vivian's just, like, a delightful person, and I'm really excited for her that she gets her moment in the spotlight and that hopefully this helps her build herself as a public figure outside of and away from Elon Musk. And she has all of these aspirations to perform and model, and I hope she gets to do her Anna Wintour drag one day soon.
- [30:52]
Kevin Smith
Oh, me too.
- [30:54]
Harley Quinn Smith
I love that movie.
- [30:55]
Lex McMenamon
It's a great movie. Hi, Anna Wintour.
- [31:01]
Harley Quinn Smith
Lex. Do you want to plug your little outlet? What's this? It's Teen Vogue. Oh, yeah.
- [31:06]
Kevin Smith
I don't know if anyone's heard, actually, so frequently people haven't heard of it, so it's actually fine. Yes. You can find us@teen vogue.com. we have no paywall. We have a fact checking department. Most of mainstream media is not doing it like us, if you consider those two points.
- [31:20]
Harley Quinn Smith
So, yeah, labor politics, especially Teen Vogue, has been phenomenal the past, like, eight years.
- [31:26]
Kevin Smith
Yup. So true. If you love Kim Kelly, she is our labor columnist, so come through. I also do some of our labor coverage, but, like, definitely not to the extent Kim does. Yeah, I'm on the things. I'm on the socials. Yeah, that's it. That's all I had. Lol.
- [31:41]
Harley Quinn Smith
Ella, where can people find you on the World Wide Web?
- [31:44]
Lex McMenamon
I'm on on Instagram and actually everything app as Ella Yerman or Ella Yerman on Instagram.
- [31:49]
Harley Quinn Smith
We're gonna get you on Blue sky one of these days.
- [31:52]
Lex McMenamon
Blue Sky.
- [31:52]
Harley Quinn Smith
We can fix the vibes.
- [31:53]
Lex McMenamon
I'm on Blue Sky. I just forget about it.
- [31:55]
Harley Quinn Smith
You can do it.
- [31:56]
Lex McMenamon
Can we? I suffered through 2012 Tumblr once. I don't need to do it again.
- [32:01]
Kevin Smith
That is so not the vibe. I wish it were, but it's not a flu sky.
- [32:05]
Harley Quinn Smith
No, it's.
- [32:06]
Ella Yurman
It's.
- [32:06]
Harley Quinn Smith
It's more 2019 Twitter.
- [32:07]
Kevin Smith
Yeah, I agree.
- [32:09]
Lex McMenamon
Ugh. You can also find my show at going down tv. On Instagram. Going down the show on YouTube. Going down show on Patreon. I don't know. I make a transgender daily show. You guys know about it?
- [32:21]
Harley Quinn Smith
New studio looks great.
- [32:22]
Lex McMenamon
It's so fun. We got to get you on there. We got to get you to come hang out.
- [32:25]
Harley Quinn Smith
Hey, well, I will. I will. I will be in town shortly, so.
- [32:28]
Lex McMenamon
Oh, yeah.
- [32:29]
Kevin Smith
Oh, fun. I go to the taping so I can crash. That'll be fun. You should do it.
- [32:34]
Lex McMenamon
Hell yeah.
- [32:34]
Mia Wong
Okay.
- [32:35]
Kevin Smith
Are we, did we do it?
- [32:36]
Harley Quinn Smith
Yeah, we're done.
- [32:54]
Garrison Day
You know, when you're really stressed or not feeling so great about your life or about yourself, talking to someone who understands can really help. But who is that person? How do you find them? Where do you even start? Talkspace. Talkspace makes it easy to get the support you need. With Talkspace, you can go online, answer a few questions about your preferences, and be matched with a therapist. And because you'll meet your therapist online, you don't have to take time off work or arrange childcare. You'll meet on your schedule wherever you feel most at ease. If you're depressed, stressed, struggling with a relationship, or if you want some counseling for you and your partner or just need a little extra one on one support, Talkspace is here for you. Plus, Talkspace works with most major insurers and most insured members have a zero dollar copay. No insurance, no problem. Now get $80 off of your first month with promo code space80 when you go to talkspace.com match with a licensed therapist today at talkspace.com save $80 with code space80@talkspace.com I'm Israel Gutierrez and I'm.
- [33:56]
Israel Gutierrez
Hosting a new podcast, Dub Dynasty. The story of how the Golden State warriors have dominated the NBA for over a decade.
- [34:04]
Ella Yurman
The Golden State warriors once again are NBA champions.
- [34:09]
James Stout
From the building of the core that.
- [34:11]
Israel Gutierrez
Included Klay Thompson and Draymond Green to one of the boldest coaching decisions in the history of the sport, I just.
- [34:17]
James Stout
Felt like the biggest thing was to.
- [34:19]
Israel Gutierrez
Earn the trust of the players and.
- [34:20]
James Stout
Let the players know that we were here to try to help them take the next step, not tear anything down.
- [34:26]
Israel Gutierrez
Today the warriors dynasty remains alive in large part because of a scrawny 6.
- [34:31]
James Stout
Foot 2 hooper who everyone seems to.
- [34:33]
Israel Gutierrez
Love for what Steph has done for the game.
- [34:35]
Mia Wong
He's certainly on that like Mount Rushmore for guys that have changed it.
- [34:39]
Israel Gutierrez
Come revisit this magical warriors ride. This is Dove Dynasty.
- [34:43]
James Stout
The Dubs dynasty is still very much alive.
- [34:47]
Israel Gutierrez
Listen to Dub Dynasty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [34:59]
James Stout
In 1978, Roger Caron's first book was published and he was unlike any first time author Canada had ever seen.
- [35:07]
Lex McMenamon
Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted.
- [35:10]
Ella Yurman
Has spent 24 of those years in.
- [35:12]
James Stout
Jail, 12 years in solitary. He went from an ex con to a literary darling almost overnight. He was instantly a celebrity, he was.
- [35:22]
Israel Gutierrez
An adrenaline junkie and he was the.
- [35:25]
James Stout
Star of the show. Goboy is the gritty true story of how one man fought his way out of some of the darkest places imaginable. I had a knife go in my.
- [35:34]
Chaya Raichik
Stomach, puncture my spleen, break my rib.
- [35:37]
Israel Gutierrez
I had my guts all in my.
- [35:38]
James Stout
Hands, only to find himself back where he started.
- [35:41]
Mia Wong
Roger's saying is, I've never hurt anybody but myself. And I said, oh, you're so wrong.
- [35:47]
James Stout
You're so wrong on that one. Rod from Campside Media and iHeart Podcasts. Listen to GoBoy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, kids, it's me, Kevin Smith.
- [36:03]
Harley Quinn Smith
And it's me, Harley Quinn Smith.
- [36:05]
James Stout
That's my daughter, man. Who my wife has always said is just a beardless D? Ckless version of me. And that's the name of our podcast. Beardless D? Ckless Me.
- [36:12]
Mia Wong
I'm the old one, I'm the young one.
- [36:13]
James Stout
And every week we try to make each other laugh really hard. Sounds innocent, doesn't it? Lot of cussing, a lot of bad language. It's for adults only. Or listen to it with your kid. Could be a family show. We're not quite sure. We're still figuring it out.
- [36:25]
Lex McMenamon
It's a work in progress.
- [36:26]
James Stout
Listen to Beardless me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [36:35]
Ella Yurman
Hello, everybody.
- [36:36]
Robert Evans
It could happen here, here. And this is Robert Evans. We're a show about things falling apart. And boy howdy, they sure seem to be doing just that. As they always are and have been for years. You know, in fact, anticipation of the end times I think is probably close to the number one hobby in the United States at this point. I suspect if you counted up the dollar value of all the collapse themed movies, books, prepping gear, monetized social media content, and of course, religious sects in the country, the apocalypse would be one of our big industries. Doomsday prepping alone was an almost $1.2 billion business last year, and it's expected to more than double by 2030. Our popular fiction can't even imagine a better future right now. 90% of modern future media takes place during or shortly after an apocalypse. The odd exception today, like Bong Joon Ho's recent Mickey 17 is so rooted in Trumpist politics that we only catch occasional glimpses of anything beyond it. In other words, in our fiction, there's no respite from the news. We watch a slow motion, self inflicted global economic collapse and then relax with shows about mushroom zombies or literal wage slaves created by mind control surgery.
- [37:51]
Ella Yurman
In other words, it's bleak out there.
- [37:53]
Robert Evans
Tomorrow could be the day Trump invokes the Insurrection act or uses the military to occupy Greenland. Or, like one of a dozen equivalent horrors we all just know are coming in some form or another, even if no one can say when. And I'm not here today to tell you how we're gonna get past all of that or fix it, because I don't know. So today I'm just here as a merchant of hope. My job is to convince you that our species will someday get past our bullshit and perhaps even lay claim to the stars. And no, Elon Musk isn't going to have anything to do with that. But in order to convince you of all this, I'm going to have to talk about a movie. It's called Roar, and it is Technically a 1981 comedy adventure film about an American naturalist. This guy lives on a nature preserve in Tanzania filled with big cats. His family comes to visit at the same time as a grant committee shows up to evaluate his project, which has an unclear goal. He's apparently just trying to prove people and giant cats from all over the world can live together, which the movie shows they can't. It's really immaterial what happens in the plot. All I can tell you is how Wikipedia describes it. I've watched this movie dozens of times and I have very little idea what it's supposed to be about. This is because in any given scene, the script is only ever a vague suggestion, as each scene starts with actors trying to read lines and devolves into those same actors trying to survive while being mauled by dozens of lions, tigers and panthers. I should probably step back a minute to explain some things. Roar is largely the brainchild of Tippi Hedren and her husband, Noel Marshall. If you're on the younger side, Tippi Hedren was the female lead in a little movie called the Birds. It is a horror film and also an early apocalypse flick by Alfred Hitchcock. It's often credited with inventing modern horror cinema. Hitchcock himself sexually and psychologically harassed Hedren, but his worst actions came during a crucial scene where Hedren was attacked by a flock of birds. Up to the day of filming, Hitchcock had assured Tippy the birds used in this scene would be animatronic, but when the time came to shoot it, she spent five days having hundreds of live birds hurled at her in huge numbers by the crew. Hedren later described it as brutal, ugly and relentless. Cary Grant, her co star, told her she was the bravest woman he'd ever seen. Now, whatever other impacts this had on Tippy, she has no discernible fear of animals. After this point in her life, though she really should. Her husband, Noel, is a bit more of a mystery to me. He was an agent, a producer, a film investor, and a serial entrepreneur whose best financial decision was putting money behind what became the Exorcist. In 1969, he and Hedren were in Mozambique while she starred in the film Satan's Harvest, about which less is said, the better. This is only relevant because during their time in Africa, they observed a pride of lions lounging about an abandoned home. And this gave them an idea. They wanted to make a movie about poaching and conservation, something that could use the power of film to save these majestic creatures being threatened by humanity. All four of their children agreed to star in it and to help with production. But there were immediate snags. They wanted the film to be set in a big cat sanctuary, but actual lion tamers warned them that it was flat out impossible to keep so many large felines together safely. This would eventually prove to have been very accurate advice. After a while, one tamer introduced them to their first tame lion. And for reasons known only to God, he suggested to this traumatized movie star and her family of charmingly deranged Californians that they could just get their own big cats and train them by adopting animals confiscated from their previous owners, generally sketchy zoos and circuses. So a lot of these cats had never known the wild, and they'd often been badly mistreated. Given that this was the 1970s, we must assume that some had been confiscated property of coke dealers. Tippy and Noel had no professional or legal qualifications to care for dozens of big cats. When the authorities eventually found out, there was trouble. Although since Hedren and Marshall were rich, they bought their way out of said trouble by purchasing a rural compound and having a house built specifically for they and their dozens of apex predators to live. While lions had inspired the initial vision, the compound in California soon filmed with big adopted cats of every kind. Tippy and her husband took them in and raised them among and around their own children, who came to see the animals as something between pets and family. When they actually started filming the movie that became Roar, making any kind of movie had become secondary to the act of caring for these many, many giant traumatized kitties. As I noted earlier, the plot to Roar is kind of immaterial. I've never watched it with the sound on. I can tell you though that none of these cats were trained in any really meaningful way, which meant that every scene devolved into the same spectacle. The cast, surrounded by dozens of giant cats, stumble through a few lines before one or all of the cats begin to bite and claw them, at which point each scene becomes about surviving from one moment to the next. Roar took more than five years to film and more than a decade to actually make. No cats were harmed during the production of this movie, but more humans were injured than in any other film production on record. Of the 120 or so cast and crew on ROAR, more than 100 suffered significant injury, often more than once. Jan De Bont, the cinematographer, had his scalp ripped off by a lion requiring 120 stitches. He went on to make Speed and Twister. Melanie Griffith, Tippy's daughter and a future star herself, left production at one point because she was worried a big cat might rip her face off. She ultimately returned and immediately had a large chunk of her face ripped off, requiring extensive surgery. This all sounds horrifying and impossible to justify, but before you make a final judgment, I want to remind you of two things. One, for all its horrors and severe injuries, fewer people were killed on the set of War than in Alec Baldwin's recent film Rust. The second thing that you must remember is that Roar is a work of art on the level of Moby Dick. If you watch it enough among the right people and in the right headspace, you can come to a deeper understanding of every facet of human existence. I've taken a lot out of it over the years. Recently, it has convinced me that we will one day get over our bullshit and escape the present hell that our species seems mired in. I know that doesn't make much sense now, but give me some time. I'll explain why. But first, it's probably time for some ads.
- [44:33]
Ella Yurman
We're back.
- [44:34]
Robert Evans
And the first thing I need you to understand, understand about all of these fucking cats is that in every mauling caught on tape and there are dozens of them, I see no anger or malice in the actions of these cats. I don't even see hunger. It's clear to me, as a cat owner, that the cats didn't see these people, Tippy and her family and the cast and crew as prey or as a threat. If anything, they saw them as fellow big cats, cousins and close kin who they extend a kind of familiarity and perhaps even a kind of love that, since they are cats, is expressed primarily by batting at them with claws that hit like bowie knives embedded in the hood of a speeding Camry. If you have cats of your own, you understand. Now, given that nearly every person on this film was badly injured, including Tippy, who got gangrene from infected cat wounds, and all of her children, you might feel inclined to judge who or Noel or both of them for risking their kids lives to make this insane movie. I understand the impulse, but I believe it to be an error. The first thing you need to see to understand the deeper dynamics going on with Roar is a picture from a Playboy magazine photoshoot of Tippi's husband and co star, Noel Marshall. He's in his office on his typewriter, and this fully grown male lion gets up on his desk because it wants attention. Again, normal cat behavior. Now, despite the best efforts of this animal, who has to weigh 500 pounds, Noel Marshall won't stop focusing on his work. And so the cat, inches away from his face, ROARS. The sound of a male lion's roar is deeply imprinted on all of us. An epigenetic memory passed down by the handful of our ancestors who heard the sound up close and lived to tell the tale. It has such a foundational impact on our mind that Metro Goldwyn Meyer, the film studio, used it to open every movie they made from 1928 on. I believe they did this because the sound is a sort of hack to compel our attention. It pulls an audience out of whatever state of mind dominates their outside lives and makes them more attentive to the film that is to come. And so the first thing you need to understand about the people who made Roar is that Marshall, upon having a living adult lion inches from his face, Roar gives the creature a look that says, hey, man, can you give me a second? I'm like, I'm in the middle of something. I bring this up so that you will understand that these were not people operating on anything close to the same wavelength as you and I. Their lives and their choices are, to outsiders, inconceivable. There's another great photo from the set of that Playboy shoot. While the camera people roamed the Hedren compound, one of them caught a shot of Tippi's adolescent daughter Melanie jumping into a pool. An adult male lion, which she must have considered to be in some way a member of the family, sees this girl passing by in the corner of its eye. And that motion ignites an instinct inside it. So like any cat of that size in the same situation, it reaches out to bite her. Afterwards, the Hedren family and the cast and crew had complicated feelings about what happened that extended to the present day. Tippy divorced Marshall almost as soon as the filming finally wrapped. She has alleged that while Roar was being made, he utterly ignored her well being. She also does not seem to have ever seriously considered leaving. She later wrote that she quote, was into it every bit as much as he was, and that production was an obsessive, addictive drama. John Mitchell, Noel's son, who acted in the movie and like everyone else was mauled repeatedly came to own the rights to Roar when his dad died in 2010. Dad was a fucking asshole to do that to his family, he said recently. He also said this it was amazing to live through that. I should have died many times, but I kind of want to do it again. If you have any friends or family who have survived extended periods of heavy combat, there's a good chance they may have expressed a variation of the same feeling. This is because trauma is sometimes a drug taking. It can be more than just hell. It's often also a high, which is one thing that drives a lot of people crazy. I need to take a moment away from Roar to talk about some people that I met in 2017 in Iraq during the desperate and ferocious urban combat against isis. The closer I drew to the front, the more guys I met who were elite veterans of the Iraqi Special Forces. They did the bulk of the fighting. These were mostly young men, ranging from the tail end of their teens to their twenties. Many had grown up in places like Fallujah, fighting from the time they were seven or eight. Sometimes younger, they'd been born into the US occupation. In many cases, their earliest memories were as runners ferrying supplies and information to the older men and teenage boys who did most of the fighting. When the opportunity presented itself, they sometimes dropped grenades or improvised explosive devices on US troops, most of whom were teenagers themselves. Now they fought against ISIS in close quarters, building to building a few weeks at a time. Periodically they'd rotate off the front and would go to Erbil, an hour or two away. Many of them were gangsters in their spare time, running drugs and guns and brothels. They spent their days off in a drunken haze of Turkish amphetamines. Then they would drive back to the front in new, brightly colored Mustangs and Dodge Chargers, the trunks full to bursting with so many machine guns and rocket launchers they could only be closed with bungee cords. The guns and rockets were useful at a distance to soften up enemy positions in the impossibly dense warren like urban environment of Mosul's old city. In every building, on every block, the Fighting terminated with door to door, room to room battles where the most useful weapons were hand grenades, combat knives, and pistols, in that order. I don't know if any of these guys were, at that point that I met them, capable of feeling what you or I would recognize as fear. These were the men and boys whose bodies formed the cutting edge of the fighting against ISIS and Mosul. On occasion, when they kidnapped ISIS fighters, some of them committed war crimes with the ease and with as much thought as you and I give to breathing. This is bad, of course. Unforgivable. But I've never really given much thought to judging them for it. Where would I even start? A thing I've come to understand in my travels is that human beings are capable of contorting themselves into the most incredible shapes in order to fit into the times they're forced to live in. This has been the story of our entire long journey on this Earth. And if there is one reason our species has survived above all the others, it is our capacity for infinite variety in infinite contexts. We can make ourselves into anything if we're given the right incentives. And to an extent, you can't judge individual humans without judging the incentives the world we collectively create presents for them. We evolved, and we still live in a world where trauma and pain are inevitable. And those of us who survive the worst things that life can throw at us tend to become addicted, sometimes to the cause of the trauma, but nearly always to the people we experience it with. This is why the cast and crew of Roar often reported feeling almost addicted to spending time among these gigantic predators. And it's why many kept coming back despite being repeatedly maimed. ROAR happened because the core cast and crew exhibited radical empathy for roughly 140 large cats and for each other, and almost exercised zero critical judgment beyond that point. Now, I will understand if you still feel that nothing could justify the decision of two parents to risk their children's lives in such folly. And I know this essay is supposed to be my ultimate enduring optimism about mankind's potential, and I'm going to get to that. But, you know, we still live in 2025, so first, here's ads. So here's my best step at explaining why I find ROAR inspirational. There's a scene about three quarters of the way through this movie, after roughly an hour straight of watching the Hedren Marshall family and their friends get repeatedly mauled for real by giant cats. And in this scene, John Marshall finds a dirt bike and engineers a scenario that I am certain has never happened before or since. In the history of this planet. He rides away from the home where his family is trapped and draws several dozen lions, panthers and tigers away by making them chase him. The cats assume this is a game and repeatedly try to murder or maim him. But he continues building up speed in an ever greater tale of the most lethal killing machines to evolve on this planet. You can see from the look in John's eyes in this scene that he has no idea if he's seconds away from death. It would have been physically impossible to stop or control this number of giant cats. The only reason this number and variety of lions, panthers and tigers would ever have existed together at any previous point in world history would have been across a distance of thousands of miles of rugged wilderness. But thanks to Tippy and Noel's insane dream, and thanks to the deranged and utterly unjustifiable commitment of many of the crew and their family, a moment of utter novelty occurs where this singular assortment of big cats watches as a man fleeing in terror from them on a dirt bike, does one of the sickest jumps in film history and lands directly into a river. And then keeps riding until he is charged by a juvenile African elephant, which the Edrons also kept on their property. In its uniqueness, this moment has to rival, if not exceed, the moon landing. After all, considerably more men have stepped foot on the moon than have achieved what John Marshall does in this scene. Although some of that may be due to the fact that it is extremely illegal for anyone today to even try. And this is why I encourage you to watch Roar. My dear friends during the dark times. Not because it's a good movie, but because it reveals what is best about humanity? What piece of art could better illustrate the infinite possibilities within us? If a group of human beings can learn to live among lions and tigers despite the constant guarantee of severe injury, without really understanding why, is it so mad to think that perhaps we too can transcend the barbarities of our age and become something better? Or at least something far stranger than money grubbing fascists. I don't know how we escape the darkness that seems to encroach a bit further with each passing day. But I do know know this. If we can make war, we can do anything.
- [54:54]
Garrison Day
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- [55:56]
Israel Gutierrez
Hosting a new podcast, Dub Dynasty the.
- [55:59]
Robert Evans
Story of how the Golden State warriors.
- [56:01]
Israel Gutierrez
Have dominated the NBA for over a decade.
- [56:04]
Ella Yurman
The Golden State warriors once again are NBA champions.
- [56:09]
James Stout
From the building of the core that.
- [56:10]
Israel Gutierrez
Included Klay Thompson and Draymond Green to one of the boldest coaching decisions in the history of the sport.
- [56:16]
James Stout
I just felt like the biggest thing.
- [56:18]
Israel Gutierrez
Was to earn the trust of the.
- [56:19]
James Stout
Players and let the players know that we were here to try to help them take the next step, not tear anything down.
- [56:25]
Israel Gutierrez
Today the warriors dynasty remains alive in large part because of a scrawny 6.
- [56:30]
James Stout
Foot 2 hooper who everyone seems to.
- [56:32]
Israel Gutierrez
Love for what Steph has done for the game.
- [56:35]
Mia Wong
He's certainly on that like Mount Rushmore for guys that have changed it.
- [56:38]
Israel Gutierrez
Come revisit this magical warriors ride. This is Dove Dynasty.
- [56:43]
James Stout
The Dubs Dynasty is still very much alive.
- [56:47]
Israel Gutierrez
Listen to Dub Dynasty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [56:58]
James Stout
In 1978, Roger Caron's first book was published and he was unlike any first time author Canada had ever seen.
- [57:06]
Lex McMenamon
Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted.
- [57:09]
Ella Yurman
Has spent 24 of those years in.
- [57:12]
James Stout
Jail, 12 years in solitary. He went from an ex con to a literary darling almost overnight. He was instantly a celebrity.
- [57:21]
Israel Gutierrez
He was an adrenaline junkie and he.
- [57:24]
Mia Wong
Was the star of the show.
- [57:26]
James Stout
Go Boy is the gritty true story of how one man fought his way out of some of the darkest places imaginable. I had a knife go in my.
- [57:34]
Chaya Raichik
Stomach, puncture my spleen, break my ribs.
- [57:36]
Kevin Smith
I had my guts all in my.
- [57:38]
James Stout
Hands only to find himself back where he started.
- [57:41]
Mia Wong
Roger Saint saying is, I've never hurt anybody but myself. And I said, oh you're so wrong.
- [57:46]
James Stout
You're so wrong on that one. Rod from Campside Media and iHeart Podcasts. Listen to GoBoy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, kids, it's me, Kevin Smith.
- [58:03]
Harley Quinn Smith
And it's me, Harley Quinn Smith.
- [58:04]
James Stout
That's my daughter, man, who my wife has always said is just a beardless, dickless version of me. And that's the name of our podcast, Beardless Me. I'm the old one, I'm the young one. And every week we try to make each other laugh really hard. Sounds innocent, doesn't it? A lot of cussing, a lot of bad language. It's for adults only. Or listen to it with your kid. Could be a family show. We're not quite sure. We're still figuring it out.
- [58:24]
Lex McMenamon
It's a work in progress.
- [58:25]
James Stout
Listen to Beardless with me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [58:35]
Mia Wong
Welcome to It Could Happen Here, a podcast where here is the rapidly encroaching rise of fascism. My name is Mia Wong, and one of the major vectors of fascism that we have been covering on this show has been the increase in just effectively straight up black baggings by ICE and immigration enforcement in general. We have spent a good amount of time covering a bunch of different angles of this, but there is another incredibly distressing angle that we have not covered as much yet, which is their targeting of labor organizers. And with me to talk about that is Mark Medina from Portland, Jobs for Justice and the Coalition of Independent Unions. And yeah, Mark, welcome to the show.
- [59:18]
Israel Gutierrez
Hi, thanks for having me.
- [59:20]
Mia Wong
Yeah, I'm glad to have you on. So one of the most pressing sort of black baggings that's happened fairly recently is ISIS kidnapping of Alfredo Juarez de Ferrino, otherwise known as Lelo. Can you tell us about sort of his work and the projects that he's been doing? And Familas unidas pula justicia.
- [59:40]
Israel Gutierrez
Yeah. So it's been a very disheartening and scary couple of weeks since this happened because this opens up a new path for the state to go after organizers, to go after workers and the most underprivileged in our society in a way that I suppose we all expected. But now that we see it, now that we see it happening, now that we see it happening to people that we know in our community, it's becoming apparent there is no turning back from the idea that we have to be able to take this on headfirst. We as activists, as organizers, have to look at this and see it as an actual thing in our day to day that we have to combat and incorporate into our organizing. So maybe it might be a little helpful to start off with a little bit of a backstory on Flamingos Andidas by la.
- [60:29]
Mia Wong
Yeah.
- [60:30]
Israel Gutierrez
So the union has its origins going back to 2013. The area in which they organize, the Bellingham or the Washington Whatcom Skagit areas, has a very particular type of immigrant community there. Lelo himself is of mystical background. There's a lot of indigenous Mexican populations in the region. It's also one that has long roots. A lot of these people go back generations, have been here for quite some time. This area also happens to be a very, particularly with the non Hispanic population, particularly the white population. A very conservative, particularly conservative for the area. It's one of the very few areas in the Northwest that Donald Trump came to visit. It's an area that has had repeated attacks on the immigrant community. And so it's in this context that workers are organizing in 2013 for this first independent union. And two, it's important to mention the independent union part of it. A lot of the organizers from the start of this of the union came from a tradition of the United Farm Workers in California. Some of them worked with Chavez in the, in the heyday of the United Farm Workers. And in the years and decades since then, since the Delano boycotts and other things, there's been a growing rift of what the next steps should be. And I think that for a lot of farm workers, because they don't organize under the general labor law that we have have for most workers, there is a sort of patchwork system for how farm working organizing happens in the United States that's dependent upon different states and legislatures. And for the most part, with the exception of only two states, farm workers don't have the same kind of protections that regular workers generally in the society have for union recognition for collective bargaining. Only Washington and New York at the moment, I believe, have laws that allow for elections for farmworker unions. And there's a very particular reason for that being the case. Farm workers were excluded from the Wagner act for having general labor rights in the 1930s because precisely it was seen as immigrant labor and immigrants were not seen as meriting the same rights as white Americans in the same way that domestic workers were removed because that was seen at the time as black labor. So it has its roots in racism.
- [62:52]
Mia Wong
And. Yeah, and that's something that, you know, like you can tie that exclusion. Like there's a straight line between that and Japanese internment, which also to a large extent is just. Is about land seizure and this sort of like fusion of racism, specifically racism in the farming sector with. With tax and labor rights and with this desire to just sort of seize literally the land and labor from non white people.
- [63:14]
Israel Gutierrez
Yeah, yeah.
- [63:15]
Mia Wong
So it's a long and bleak history.
- [63:17]
Israel Gutierrez
No, absolutely. And I'm sure your audience is well aware of a lot of these subject matter. It is a bleak history. And it wasn't until groups like the United Farm workers in the 60s and the 70s that they began to create the possibility for something new for the Hispanic community. It was United Farm Workers that built not just a lot of solidarity with other immigrant groups in the California area, but they also built a sense of pride and identity and belonging for a lot of communities. I grew up in Borough Heights, East Los Angeles. Chavez and the night farm worker murals are everywhere. You know, me and my friends would often joke that Chavez is like the patron saint in East Los Angeles, even though it's nowhere near Delano. And there's a reason for that. I think that a lot of us looked up to the United Farm Workers. We looked up to the farm worker union movement, and we saw in them our heroes, our modern day heroes. We saw them. We saw people who said, be proud to be brown. You know, there's a courage that comes from that history. History. The union movement that then sprung up in 2013 in the Bellingham, northern Washington area was coming out of that milieu. They understood that background, they understood that history, but they also understood that there was very little organizing in the region. There was a lot of fear in the region. It's very difficult to organize farm workers to have access to a lot of these areas. You have to cross just private property for quite some time before you reach the first farm workers workers. And it becomes very, very difficult to have organizing happen. And it's intentional that way. The rise in farm worker unions that happened in the 60s and 70s had a massive plummet by the time that we get into the 90s and 2000s. And so these workers had heard these stories, had heard about this legacy, but had been essentially dealing with increasing frustration, racist behavior by bosses, lower and lower pay, and the use of certain types of immigrants to try to scab their jobs. It'd be the capitalist class using one type of worker against another type of worker, pitting them against each other. It's in this context, in 2013, that this union starts to form. They go public at that time period, they call for recognition, and they started taking Action directly. And they organize this years and years long boycott campaign to gain recognition, to get the employer to start bargaining. And after years and years of this in court battles and the employer trying to lay everyone off and hire certain types of newer immigrants coming in to replace all of them, pitting one worker against another, all these types of maneuvers, by 2017, these workers win a contract. And the philosophy of the union since then has been not just to grow this union, but also for them to be able to stand on their own two feet. Their idea is that they are very proud of their independent nature of that union. They're not part of the AFL cio, they're not part of the United Farm Workers. They're not part of any other organization. When I spoke to some of their leaders last year, one of the things that came to mind was they brought up a quote from Eugene Debs. The notion of if we were to lead you into the promised land, someone else would just leech out. And the notion of their union is we have to be able to stand on our two feet. We can't rely on anyone else because if they promise us things today, tomorrow they'll hold something over us. That's the notion that farm workers lead this movement and lead this union is an incredibly powerful statement of what working class people can do. The kinds of workers that everyone else kinds of looks at, they could never do it. These workers could never handle this kind of level of struggle and couldn't do this kind of organization. Have built one of the most powerful independent farm worker unions in the west coast. Alfredo Lelo Juarez was a founding member of this union. He was a farm worker starting at the age of 12 and since then devoted his entire life to organizing, to helping workers, to being the kind of person who commits himself to the work of making the world a better place than he found it. You know, at 25, he is significantly younger than Meng. And when I think of people who I look up to, who I think of, wow, when I grow up and want to be someone like that, I think of Lelo. I have met Little many a times over the years. He's a very soft spoken, very thoughtful type of person. And yeah, I think that the labor movement owes him a bit of a debt. Now it is time that we as a whole stand up for him.
- [67:43]
Mia Wong
Yeah, yeah, we are going to go to ads, regrettably, and then when we come back we are going to start talking, I think a bit more about the repression. We are back. So obviously then this is, this is a part of the Story that you've been telling the sort of capitalist class out in Bellingham and you know, the sort of, I mean, this has been true of the broader capitalist class since this kind of organizing starting has been trying to break these unions this entire time. That has been a major focus of everything that they've been doing. And what we're seeing right now seems like a massive sort of escalation in the degree of repression. So, yeah. Can we talk about the recent black bagging of Lelo and sort of what happened and where we go from there?
- [68:40]
Israel Gutierrez
Yeah, yeah. The weaponization of the state to go after immigrants and go after activists is, I'm sure your audience is well known, is nothing new. And it no nose party affiliation.
- [68:51]
Mia Wong
Yeah.
- [68:51]
Israel Gutierrez
The Democratic administrations have been doing this to immigrant communities and have been using it to silence political activists. The Trump administration, however, is now doing this on a level that is, at least to a lot of us, unheard of in the modern day, which is to go after specific union leaders in the labor movement, to go after civil rights leaders.
- [69:11]
Mia Wong
Yeah.
- [69:12]
Israel Gutierrez
You've seen this happen. Also, when it comes to Palestinian rights activists around the country, the idea is pretty simple, to silence the loudest voices, to cut the leadership from the movement.
- [69:24]
Mia Wong
Yeah.
- [69:25]
Israel Gutierrez
On March 25th, Alfredo Lelo Juarez was dropping off his girlfriend at a nearby farm for work and was accosted by ICE agents as he was exercising his rights, or what he thought his rights were at the time because of the regime. Who knows what your rights are?
- [69:45]
Mia Wong
Yeah.
- [69:45]
Israel Gutierrez
They broke his window, they dragged him out of his car. You know, this was obviously very traumatic incident, but also it was a real shock to the union, to C2C, the community group that works with the union, and to the local Hispanic community in the area. Within hours of that, workers organizers community went to move to try to carry a response, knowing that time was of the essence.
- [70:11]
Mia Wong
Yeah, yeah.
- [70:12]
Israel Gutierrez
It was then taken to a localized facility. He's now since been moved to a detention center in Tacoma, Washington. A large rally of hundreds took place calling for his immediate release. What we know now seemingly is that at the very last minute, apologies, I forget the exact day, but it was within a couple of days of the kidnapping. Lelo was pulled off. He has an automatic stay of deportation in place. At this point, no longer has any legal authority to remove Lelo. This came at the last minute. He was in line for deportation and was removed at the very last minute. However, while this is good news, this is not good for someone's personal health and well being. These are massively cramped Facilities, underfunded facilities. You know, there are horror stories around the country of the conditions in some of these places. Every day that Lelo is stuck behind these prison walls is a injustice to our movement. Yeah, yeah.
- [71:18]
Mia Wong
The thing it immediately reminds me of is the story of Thomas Paine, who was, like, slated to be executed in the French Revolution, and they didn't execute him because his door was open, so they didn't see the slash line on the cell that was supposed to execute him. And then, like, the next day, the Reign of Terror ended with the coup against the Jacobins. It reminds me a lot of that. But, you know, but on the other hand, here's the thing. We have gotten the stay of the deportation, but we have not. We have not brought down the Reign of terror yet. So. Yeah.
- [71:49]
Israel Gutierrez
And I would hope Lelo doesn't have to wait four more years for that one.
- [71:51]
Ella Yurman
Yeah.
- [71:52]
Mia Wong
Good Lord. Good Lord. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So let's. Let's talk a bit about. So, I mean, obviously, you know, what we're seeing here, and this is, you know, the connection that you made, is we're seeing just on a sort of broad scale, the use of the state and of the sort of black bagging and of these deportations as a way to target organizers from Palestine to labor organizers. That's only going to expand as this goes on. And I think something critical about, you know, one of the first things you were saying here about the fact that they're targeting sort of the loudest voices in the community. And I think a big part of this is that they know that their position isn't as strong as they're making it out to be. Right. Like, they have just detonated a nuke across the entire economy. They are systemically going through and individually fucking over every single economy group of people who are supposed to be their base. And I think part of what they're doing is they're trying to spread sort of raw terror and spread fear and, you know, and attack the critical infrastructure of organizing because they want to make it look like resisting them is impossible. And that's just not true. They can be.
- [73:02]
Israel Gutierrez
Yeah, absolutely. I think that oftentimes, particularly fascistic power wants and needs to present itself as inevitable, as overwhelming and impossible to defeat, in part because it's meant to hide the ultimate weakness of some of these powers, the actual power that these farm workers showed against the Sakuma farms when they went on strike and boycotted for years and years and years out in the fields, talking to workers for years and years and years. It showed that no matter how powerful some of these companies are, some of these CEOs are, that the power of workers overwhelms and the power of solidarity overwhelms. And they know that going after leadership, going after some of the most, some of the bravest people in our movement, is a way of trying to hit the movement at the knees and trying to convince folks that struggle is impossible. But I think it is important to remember that what we're doing, the struggle now, the response, this is how we show the population, the world, you know, our communities, that they are not inevitable, it is not insurmountable. And so in. By taking action, responding to the kinds of fascistic behaviors of the state, we show how feeble the state can be at times, even when it seems its most treacherous and awful.
- [74:17]
Mia Wong
Yeah. And I think a lot of times when we win fights, it can be very, very hard to actually see our victory, because we don't see the world that could have been if we didn't fight. And that's the thing I think about with the first Trump administration, where during the first Trump administration, they absolutely wanted to be doing this kind of shit, and they were able to do a lot of terrible stuff, but they weren't able to sort of go this far because of the kind of mass mobilizations that shut down a lot of the kinds of things that they wanted to do. And I think that's a kind of victory that is hard to kind of, like, process, because all. All we see is, you know, the suffering that did happen. And we. We can never see an image of, like, all of the people, you know, who got to continue living their lives because we stopped them. And that, I think, is another sort of powerful tool here. But also, we do have an opportunity to make sure that we can beat them right here and right now in a way that's very, very public and business and.
- [75:18]
Israel Gutierrez
And there's a question mark about that in my mind because, you know, my entire adult life, I've heard stories of the state repression against union organizers in the 20s and the 30s and the 40s. You hear the stories, if you're an organizer, about all the violent eras and. And how hard it was in the past. And we forget that a lot of that does continue on. It's just not where you would imagine it, where a lot of American workers imagine it. And so they don't see it in their shops and their factories and their unions. But this right here is an attack on the labor movement. Had this been the head of the electricians union the head of the seiu. Had this been an attack on what a lot of Americans would view as the mainstream labor movement, this would be headlines. The fact that it isn't shows and that it has been so much work to try to get attention to a union leader being picked up and kidnapped by the state should be a blaring red light on the labor movement to take action immediately. I hope that what we're doing is the first steps to that, because this is one of those moments. They went after the trade unions, unionists, and I was not a trade unionist. Well, they're going after the farm workers. I am not a farm worker. It is incumbent upon us morally to stand up for one another at this point in time.
- [76:37]
Mia Wong
Yeah. And I think there's been a real kind of real cowardice and a real sort of appeasement of power and a real sort of demonstration of where a lot of these unions politics are. I mean, we saw the way that the Teamsters, like, leadership just, I mean, just, you know, openly went to speak at the rnc. Right. We've been seeing the uaw, which traditionally has had better, like, immigration politics in the last few years than a lot of these other sort of mainstream unions. But it's also been sort of going to bat for Trump's terror. Like, I've been calling them the turf tariffs because of the wages of transphobia. But, you know, they've been going to bat for, like, the turf tariffs. Right. And that, I think, is, like, part of why they've been sort of unable to, like, respond to this moment and why they've been unable to respond to the past fucking 50 years of moments, which is that, like, if you're. If you're sort of like, labor politics is rooted in this sort of, like, American nationalist, like, American jobs for American workers stuff.
- [77:33]
Chaya Raichik
Right.
- [77:33]
Mia Wong
And it's not actually based in the power of workers and the power of workers everywhere, then you're going to lose. It's not just sort of reactionary politics, although it is. It's also bad politics, and we're seeing it right now.
- [77:46]
Israel Gutierrez
Yeah. And I think that the history of the labor movement has been an interesting one in my adult life, because, you know, I'm as pro labor as they come. However, the history of the labor movement in the modern day has been a fascinating one. It is one that, when it came to large strikes, was at its nadir at the mid and late 2000s. I think at one point, it was just over a dozen strikes, over 2,000 workers. And you compare that to the height of the labor movement in the 40s and the 50s when it was in the hundreds and you had strike actions all the time. And that is what built so much of what we call the middle class for some. And it was this really historic moment at the time. And we're in a historic moment now where I think the labor movement for so long from that point has been trying. Workers from the rank and file have been trying to kind of reshape the labor movement in the thoughts and the ideas of the new. But it comes with its own regressive setbacks and it comes with its own shortcomings of leadership. You know, the teen steers making statements around immigration rights was a very unfortunate thing to be said in the modern day, the modern context. I think that that other unions seemingly looking to circle the wagons rather than take the risks that need to happen in this current time has really shown a lack of imagination from some of the mainstream unions. And the thing is, I hope for the best for them. I want them to succeed and I want them to get better because the world is a better place for having these larger unions. However, it's the independent move movements, the independent unions like Familias Unidos, like these other unions in the region that can be the kind of canary in the coal mine, the kind of labs of experimentation that can be the first people out to do some of the most radical and interesting and worker centric type of movement building and messaging Like. I think there is a reason why it was the coalition of independent unions here in the Pacific Northwest that that came up with the notion of having trans day of solidarity, this idea of patterning contracts together to have inclusive and protections for trans for trans workers and having that be a thing that unions take up together. I think that it's incredibly notable that it's groups like Familia Sunidas that carried out this long, years long boycott and created a model by which other workers in the region can not just organize themselves, but organize themselves on a low cost member led democratic model. I think it's important to see that sometimes the large unions have to start looking at some of the radical pragmatism that comes from the necessities of these smaller independent campaigns.
- [80:26]
Mia Wong
Yeah, and I mean before we go to ads, I think the last thing I want to say there is like, you know, the other option they have is to do the option of what the unions did during the rise of the Nazis, which is like during the rise of the Nazis, the unions fell in line, right? They fell in line because they were scared and they thought that they could fucking win benefits from it, and it saved some of them. There were a few of those people just became Nazis, but the rest of them got fucking liquidated anyways. So those are your options, right? You either stand and fight now with the independent unions or you become part of the regime and eventually get liquidated when Trump, in like fucking two and a half years, signs executive order that says unions are illegal or whatever. Whatever.
- [81:05]
Lex McMenamon
Yeah.
- [81:06]
Israel Gutierrez
And what does that do at the end of the day? Even if it stays you, even if you're the head of some of these, like, larger unions, and by working with the administrative, the administration today, by selling your soul, by selling the movement out, you give up the. The moral high ground of our movement, of our working class democratic movement.
- [81:24]
Mia Wong
Yeah.
- [81:25]
Israel Gutierrez
You give it up for another generation then. When workers, when people like myself growing up, looking at images of the United Farm Workers, there are similar. I presume there are similar people in the United States growing up who look that way up to the United Auto Workers, who look that way up to the teachers union. What happens to those children? To those kids, those young people who want to be the next leadership, the next era of the labor movement. They will not look at us as having the moral high ground. We give that up. We give our role in history, our moral role in history, to fight for the working class when we do things like. Like this.
- [81:58]
Mia Wong
Yeah. And what you become instead is just another extension of the state. You become like one of, like, the national syndicates in, like, Francois Spain. And what that does to you is people, people don't look at you in a generation as a labor movement. They look at you as just another arm of a fascist regime. And it doesn't have to be like that. It really doesn't. But.
- [82:18]
Israel Gutierrez
Yeah. No, it does not. I take no pleasure in saying this, you know, I take no pleasure in saying this, but it's an unfortunate reality. And hopefully the turnaround can come from anywhere. It can come from unexpected places. And I hope that there is one. And things like solidarity for Lelo, I hope can be a small link in the chain that moves the pendulum right back into the direction of an ethical and moral superiority that comes with fighting for working class folks.
- [82:43]
Mia Wong
Yeah, we're going to take a nap break, and when we come back, we're going to talk about what we can do for Lelo. Right now, as you are listening to this, we are back. So let's talk about both the operation, I mean, just immediately, the plans to sort of put pressure to free Lillo. And also then I guess we'll get into sort of more broadly the kinds of fighting that we need to be doing in order to resist this.
- [83:16]
Lex McMenamon
Sure.
- [83:16]
Israel Gutierrez
Sounds good. Good. So, like I mentioned earlier, in the immediate aftermath of Lelo's kidnapping by ice, workers in the region began organizing, and unions came together in support of Lelo and helped rally in front of the detention center in Tacoma. Now what we're trying to do is trying to spread the word further. There are other communities, particularly here on the west coast, that can stand solidarity, that should stand in solidarity. And when we heard this go down, activists within the CIU asked themselves, we can't stand idly by while a leader in our movement is kidnapped by the state. We need to take action. And so we did. And the point was to move as quickly as possible to try to build a larger voice for Lelo while he is in detention. So there is a good number of activists here in the Portland area. We can be of service to the. To the farm workers union. You know, we have a strong core of independent unions here in the Pacific Northwest, particularly in the Portland area. We can do what other unions are hesitant to do, which is take action immediately and stand firmly with our brothers and sisters up in northern northern Washington. So what's happening is the call from the union is workers individually, for people individually to call into the attorney general in Washington state and call to the release of Lelo. Also calling the new governor up in Washington state to call for the release, bring a wider attention, making you known that this person is someone who is important to the community, cannot be spirited away to another country where they are not from where that is not their home and taken away from their family, the community, and from the good work that they do. And the other thing that we're trying to do is we're trying to get local officials to also use their voice to maximize the pressure to give more attention to this issue. So that's the call so far. This rally that we're having in front of City hall on Saturday, April 12, at 2pm Is the beginning of what we hope is a larger campaign that will not end until Lelo is free and until these raids stop. Stop attacking the labor movement in the Pacific Northwest. You know, just because we in Portland, you know, are not farm workers, because we don't work with farm workers, because a lot of the workers who. Who work here and maybe never met a farm worker, it does not mean that we should not stand shoulder to shoulder and arm and arm and support the farm workers union. Up in northern Washington to the hilt. And this begins this fight of building that kind of level of solidarity. It begins by showing up for them, doing what they can do. Right now. They don't have the resources to go. Go state by state and city by city to bring attention and awareness to one of their leaders being attacked. But we can do it, and if we can do it, we should do it. It's a moral imperative that little be free.
- [86:07]
Mia Wong
Yeah. And so, I mean, statistically, there are a lot of you in Portland listening to the show, but statistically, most of you are not in Portland. Are there other things that people in the rest of the country and I guess the rest of the world. I know, I know there's some. Some of you statistically don't live in the U.S. yeah. Are there things that people in other places can do to put pressure specifically for Lelo, but also just can do in their own communities to, you know, I mean, put. Put pressure to stop these raids?
- [86:32]
Israel Gutierrez
Yes, absolutely. So this is very similar, I think, to the CiU, the Coalition of independent unions, this coalition of independent unions here in the Pacific Northwest. It was trying to do and is trying to do with transient solidarity. The idea is we are trying to make this work here in the Pacific Northwest. And if it's useful, if it's good, if people are paying attention to it, it then we can export this to other cities and other areas to bring more attention to these causes. And so with that, when patterning parenting contracts together, particularly on this one issue of transgender healthcare and trans inclusive language contracts and codifying that between unions and having that a demand of labor movement, that they not walk away from this, we want to also do the same thing with this fight for freedom for the farm workers union and their leaders and workers everywhere and the attacks that will come soon enough, I suppose, I would imagine, for this. This regime in Washington.
- [87:24]
Mia Wong
Yeah.
- [87:25]
Israel Gutierrez
If this works, we want workers in other cities that start assisting the farm worker union taking up the call of action and fighting for. For not just Leto, but whoever comes afterwards, because there will be levels in the future, unfortunate as it may be. So if this works here, if workers hear, as they hear more updates, we would hope, and we would love if workers elsewhere, if organizing groups elsewhere there would want to take up this fight and bring attention to the cause.
- [87:52]
Mia Wong
Hell, yeah. Yeah. And I think there is a lot of, you know, potential in sort of mobilizations. There's a lot of potential in getting people to understand that this stuff's happening. And there's a lot of potential in Cross union organizing.
- [88:04]
Ella Yurman
And also.
- [88:05]
Mia Wong
And I will say this too, because, like, you know, obviously, statistically, like, there are a large number of people listening to this who are like, union staffers, but also, like most of you or not, that also doesn't mean that whatever kind of organizing that you're doing doesn't overlap with this and doesn't have capacity that they can bring to bear to stop the entire deportation regime that we're facing right now. And that's something that you have to do both on the level of solidarity, on a moral level, and also on a strategic level, because, again, he's going to come for you too.
- [88:35]
Israel Gutierrez
So.
- [88:36]
James Stout
Yes.
- [88:37]
Mia Wong
Yeah.
- [88:38]
Israel Gutierrez
You know, without making it too personal, like. Like I know Lelo personally. I have met many a times over the years. He's a fantastic person. The reason why a lot of us as organizers, why we do this kind of work to begin with, is because we believe as. As bizarrely as it may be, that we could be a link in the chain that makes the world a better place that. That we can leave the world better off than we found it. And we also believe in what we're doing because when we look at people who have been attacked by corporations and attacked by the state, we feel a moral compulsion to help. And what I would say to folks who are outside of Portland who are hearing this story, who hear the calls to call the attorney general in Washington state and demand that Little be released to follow up with the Union Familias Unidos Bologna further direction on how they can assist and potentially holding their own rallies in support and solidarity and bringing attention to the issue.
- [89:34]
Mia Wong
You.
- [89:35]
Israel Gutierrez
I would hope that they do this. Imagine if Lelo were your brother.
- [89:40]
Ella Yurman
Yeah.
- [89:40]
Israel Gutierrez
Imagine if Little were your cousin, your father, your friend. Act as if they were. They were them. Because it requires that level of empathy to have the kind of solidarity that we need in order to fight this fascist regime and everything that it does. It is easy to say, I will wait for someone else to do the work. I will. Someone else will come along and. And it'll get resolved that way. No, if you don't do the work, it just will not get done. And so we have to go in every day as part of civic engagement and assisting the working class, as part of our daily routines and. And using the kind of. The kind of sense of moral necessity and of. Of immediate action it requires that you would do for someone that was close to you.
- [90:26]
Mia Wong
Yeah.
- [90:27]
Israel Gutierrez
Because this person is you, just by another name. This person is your family. Even if you've never Met them. We are all in this together as working class people and if we start coming up with boundaries and reasons for why we shouldn't stand up for one another, those reasons then become excuses for everyone else. So I would hope that when people hear this, they look and see the struggle of this person and they can imagine what would happen to them in the future. And they say, I would want someone there for me in my corner in my time of need, so I will be there for them and theirs.
- [90:56]
Mia Wong
Yeah, it reminds me a lot of this line from Peggy Seeger, who wrote an anti fascist song called Song of Choice. And one of the verses that's always stuck with me is, today the soldiers took away one, tomorrow they may take away two. One April they took away Greece, but surely they will never take you. And you know, I mean, that's the thing that people in the 30s woke up to, right? Is, you know, if you're in this country and this is the thing that you're waking up to now is that, yeah, the soldiers are taking people away, away. And every day they're taking away more and more people. And one day you wake up and they've taken entire countries. And the only way that you can stop this is by making sure that the action that you're taking is not just waking up and going back to sleep. Right, Yep. You have to take a stand, you have to fight, because no one is coming. The only person who was coming for these people, the only person who was coming for the people coming next to them, and inevitably the only people who was coming, coming to save you when they come for you, is going to be you. And there are enough of us to stop them. Right. There always have been. That's always been a thing about fascism, is that it relies on us not fighting them, it relies on us on our passivity, it relies on us not caring enough about the people that they take first to sit back and do nothing and think that we can wait and you can't. You have to start right now and you have to stop them before they advance any further and you have to roll back what they've already done. And this is our opportunity to do that.
- [92:26]
Israel Gutierrez
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I think this is. Encapsulates the sentiment perfectly well.
- [92:31]
Mia Wong
Yeah. Do you have anything else that you want to add before we head out? And we will put links to a whole bunch of things in the description to this. Yeah, yeah.
- [92:43]
Israel Gutierrez
I suppose to those that would want to know more about not just the struggle of the farm workers union, but also the general experiments in Independent unionism here in the Pacific Northwest. I'd highly encourage that folks take a deep dive and see that to organize your workplace, to have the kind of solidarity with your co workers, you need not be dependent upon someone else and other organizations to come in and sort of rescue you from, from the mystery and drudgery of, of non union workplaces. You can do it too. You can create. You have it in your head, in your own mind and your own hands. Yeah, the ability to organize, the ability to fight with your co workers. You have the kinds of clever problem solving skills that every worker has in order to combat the boss and create a better world than the one that currently exists. And also that when it comes to issues like standing up for this struggle now and struggles in the future, I would say you have it now, the creative capacity in whatever city you're in to make connections, to build inroads with the labor movement, to build inroads with working class people and to try to create those bonds that happen. We here are trying to build closer bonds with city workers and farm workers out in, out in the country. Yeah, it's an important struggle because when it's going to be more and more and more important in the future, you don't have to wait for anyone else to tell you how to do that. You yourselves can show solidarity and work together to build those kinds of bonds now. So that in the future you can create working class movements. Now, whether that takes the form of collective bargaining or something else, organizing for the common good is useful no matter in what legal capacity happens.
- [94:30]
Mia Wong
Yeah. And I mean, you know, one last point I want to add about that in terms of looking at like you not needing help to do things. Like, you know, I know a lot of the people who, you know, like, are the organizers who are hired by places like the uaw, like afl, cio, unions. Right. They're good people. Like, they are good people, they're good organizers. They don't know anything that you can't learn. Like, a lot of these people are just literally college students.
- [94:54]
Chaya Raichik
Right?
- [94:55]
Mia Wong
Right. Who are recruited from college campuses and are thrown with no training into organizing these things. Right. And again, these are people who are just like stepping out of classrooms into these organizing scenarios with very minimal training and they've been able to do it. And if those people can do it, so can you. I know you, I know these organizers. And the only difference between them and you is that they spent some time learning some things and then they apply the same tools like they apply in some ways, worse versions of the same tools that the independent union organizers use. And they're all tools that you can learn.
- [95:33]
Israel Gutierrez
Yeah. And if any of the people listening want to learn some of those tools.
- [95:37]
Mia Wong
Yeah.
- [95:38]
Israel Gutierrez
Or need help with education and training, or just want to make connections and inroads with workers elsewhere, contact the coalition of independent unions and seeing how we can build these bonds together. Because I think that, that we will problem solve how to defeat this regime one way or another. But I think that we, particularly in the independent union space, provide a unique possibility for how this can happen. Because since we are not tied to larger established contracts, we're not tied to jurisdictional disputes, we're not tied to a lot of the legacies of some of the larger unions, God bless them. We can create and fashion a labor movement that doesn't have to live by those rules. If you imagine the idea of what it would look like to. To refound the CIO in the 1930s, if you could imagine the worst aspects of labor movement and excising them and what is the best aspects of labor movement that you would want to see, we can create that together today. And today it takes the form of standing up in solidarity with LELO and Farm workers Union up Northern Washington. Not because we get anything from it, not because it's easy, but precisely because it is difficult. And precisely because it is a moral compulsion on us to take action today for it. We don't have to wait for anyone to tell us what to do. As part of an independent labor movement, we get to decide our future and our fates and we get to decide our struggles.
- [96:53]
Mia Wong
Yeah. And if and when we beat them here, we can beat them today, we can beat them tomorrow, we can beat them the next day. And one day, you know, we will. We will have won one victory too many for them to hold on to power. And that's the only way forward.
- [97:06]
Israel Gutierrez
Absolutely. Fascism wants you to believe in a nihilistic perspective of the world. They want you to believe in which it is hopeless to fight back. They want you to believe just doom scroll forever and. And don't take any action and focus on yourselves. Enable gaze indefinitely. No. No. The way that you find out the kind of person that you are and the way that you build the kind of future that you want for yourselves, your families, for your communities, for the people that you don't even know and never will meet, but you want a good life for them. The way that you do that is you take action now, you start organizing. You do what you can, you build what you can. That's how we do this. Like we said earlier, they want you to believe that the fight is already over. The history has already been written. They only say that because they know it's not true. And me and other people who talk like this, who are as optimistic and as hopeful and as fight ready, we don't believe this out of nowhere. We believe this because we truly do see that the better world is possible if we fight.
- [98:01]
Mia Wong
Yeah. And I think, I think that's a spectacular place to end. Mark, thank you so much for coming on the show.
- [98:05]
Israel Gutierrez
Yeah, thank you.
- [98:06]
Mia Wong
And everyone else who's listening to this, go out and fight.
- [98:26]
Garrison Day
You know, when you're really stressed or not feeling so great about your life or about yourself, talking to someone who understands can really help. But who is that person? How do you find them? Where do you even start? Talkspace. Talkspace makes it easy to get the support you need. With Talkspace, you can go online, answer a few questions about your preferences, and be matched with a therapist. And because you'll meet your therapist online, you don't have to take time off work or arrange childcare. You'll meet on your schedule wherever you feel most at ease. If you're depressed, stressed, struggling with a relationship, or if you want some counseling for you and your partner or just need a little extra one on one support, Talkspace is here for you. Plus, Talkspace works with most major insurers and most insured members have a zero dollar copay. No insurance, no problem. Now get $80 off of your first month with promo code space80 when you go to talkspace.com match with a licensed therapist today at talkspace.com save $80 with code space80@talkspace.com I'm Israel Gutierrez and I'm.
- [99:29]
Israel Gutierrez
Hosting a new podcast, Dub Dynasty. The story of how the Golden State warriors have dominated the NBA for over a decade.
- [99:37]
Ella Yurman
The Golden State warriors once again are NBA champions.
- [99:42]
James Stout
From the building of the core that.
- [99:43]
Israel Gutierrez
Included Klay Thompson and Draymond Green to one of the boldest coaching decisions in.
- [99:48]
Robert Evans
The history of the sport.
- [99:49]
James Stout
I just felt like the biggest thing.
- [99:51]
Israel Gutierrez
Was to earn the trust of the.
- [99:52]
James Stout
Players and let the players know we were here to try to help them take the next step, not tear anything down.
- [99:58]
Israel Gutierrez
Today, the warriors dynasty remains alive in large part because of a scrawny 6 foot 2 hooper who everyone seems to love for what Steph has done for the game.
- [100:08]
Mia Wong
He's certainly on that, like Mount Rushmore.
- [100:10]
Israel Gutierrez
For guys that have changed it, come.
- [100:11]
James Stout
Revisit this magical warriors ride.
- [100:14]
Israel Gutierrez
This is Dove Dynasty.
- [100:16]
James Stout
The Dubs Dynasty is still very much alive.
- [100:19]
Israel Gutierrez
Listen to Dub Dynasty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [100:31]
James Stout
In 1978, Roger Caron's first book was published. And he was unlike any first time author Canada had ever seen.
- [100:39]
Lex McMenamon
Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted.
- [100:42]
Ella Yurman
Has spent 24 of those years in.
- [100:44]
James Stout
Jail, 12 years in solitary. He went from an ex con to a literary darling almost overnight. He was instantly a celebrity, he was.
- [100:54]
Israel Gutierrez
An adrenaline junkie, and he was the.
- [100:57]
Mia Wong
Star of the show.
- [100:59]
James Stout
Goboy is the gritty true story of how one man fought his way out of some of the darkest places imaginable. I had a knife go in my.
- [101:06]
Chaya Raichik
Stomach, puncture my spleen, break my rib.
- [101:09]
Israel Gutierrez
I had my guts on, only to.
- [101:12]
Harley Quinn Smith
Find himself back where he started.
- [101:14]
Mia Wong
Roger's saying is, I've never hurt anybody but myself. And I said, oh, you're so wrong.
- [101:19]
James Stout
You're so wrong on that one. Rod from Campside Media and iHeart Podcasts. Listen to GoBoy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, kids, it's me, Kevin Smith.
- [101:35]
Harley Quinn Smith
And it's me, Harley Quinn Gwen Smith.
- [101:37]
James Stout
That's my daughter, man, who my wife has always said is just a beardless d ckless version of me. And that's the name of our podcast, Beardless Me. I'm the old one, I'm the young one. And every week we try to make each other laugh really hard. Sounds innocent, doesn't it? Lot of cussing, a lot of bad language. It's for adults only. Or listen to it with your kid. Could be a family show. We're not quite sure. We're still figuring it out.
- [101:57]
Lex McMenamon
It's a work in progress.
- [101:58]
James Stout
Listen to Beardless with me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Guests. Hello and welcome to It Could Happen Here. I want you to imagine a world where everyone shared a second language, not because of imperial conquest, but out of a shared desire for unity and understanding. That was the dream behind Esperanto, a constructed language designed to be the basis for global bilingualism. Long before I learned anything about anarchism, I spent some time trying to learn Esperanto. It had shown up on my duolingo one day, and it seemed like such a fascinating and simple project to pick up. I was enamoured with the philosophy behind it, so I generally spent a few months on and off trying to learn it. That was probably a decade ago at this point, so I don't Remember too much about it, but the connection was there. And it's really because I've been exploring this topic. Topic for this episode that I ended up going back and dabbling in some of it again. I've learned recently that there's actually somewhat of a connection between Esperanto and anarchism. So let's take the time to explore the origins of Esperanto, its anarchist connections, its flaws and its future. My name is Andrew Sage and I'm here once again with.
- [103:19]
Chaya Raichik
It's me, it's James again. Very excited for this one.
- [103:22]
James Stout
Yes. You're familiar with Esperanto, right?
- [103:23]
Chaya Raichik
Right, yeah, very familiar. I wrote about it a little bit in my first book and my PhD dissertation also. The last living person to participate in the Popular Olympics, which is what I wrote my book about, was an Esperantist. Part of the project of the Popular Front in Catalonia was to bring people together through sport. And then Esperanto is going to be this thing that would, as you mentioned, like, bridge the gaps between people.
- [103:50]
James Stout
Yeah, it's a really inspiring project and so I know you're probably going to know all this information, but I do have to share it with the audience.
- [103:57]
Chaya Raichik
Yeah, I'm excited. I never really did a full rundown on Esperanto. It just appeared and I was like, holy shit, that's cool. So I'm sure I'm going to learn a lot.
- [104:06]
James Stout
Sure. So Esperanto was first constructed in a little booklet in 1887 by Polish Jewish ophthalmologist L.L. samanoff. According to the Encyclopaedia Britannica, the name itself comes from the pseudonym he took on to publish the booklet. He called himself Doctoro Esperanto. Esperanto, meaning one who hopes and hopefully analysed the whole project. According to a BBC article written by Jose Luis Benaredonda, he lived as a Polish Jew in the multicultural Russian Empire in a time rife with racial and national conflict. He was trying to promote peace and understanding and he saw an international language as a way to do that, with a flag of green and white, the colors of hope and peace. For his efforts, Zamenhof himself was nominated 14 times for the Nobel Peace Prize. He genuinely believed that if we all shared a common second language, education, ideals, convictions, aims would be the same too, and all nations would be united in a common brotherhood. Esperanto was created in a time when modernism was on the rise and the idea of rationality and science was being used to, quote, unquote, optimize the world. When it was Featured in Paris Exposition Universelle In 1900, the language caught on amongst the French intelligentsia, who saw it as more optimal in the messy and illogical realm of natural languages because it was so easy, all words and sentences being built from 16 basic rules that could fit on a paper. And the language lacked the confusing exceptions and special rules of other languages it was once seen as the language of the future. Esperanto made its full fledged public debut in 1905 when Zamenhof published the Fundamento d'esperanto, which laid down the basic principles of language's structure and formation. Esperanto is designed to be simple, logical and accessible, drawn from the influence of Romance, Germanic and Slavic languages. In its construction, the orthography is phonetic, so all the words are spelled as pronounced and the grammar is so straightforward. There's a consistent word ending for nouns, pluralisation, adjectives and verbs. But although simple, it can convey complexity. There's a lot of suffixes you can add to give degrees of meaning. And there's room for compound words too. Its European focus would be the target of criticism later on, but it actually ended up being picked up in some unusual places anyway. Zamenhof translated literature and wrote original verse, and after years of effort, there were speakers to be found across Europe, the Americas, China and Japan. By 1908, the Universala Esperanto Associio was founded and it can now find members in 83 countries worldwide. Today there's also 15 national Esperanto associations and 22 international professional associations that use Esperanto. There's an annual World Esperanto Congress and more than 100 periodicals published in Esperanto. Estimates range widely in terms of how many people speak Esperanto today. There are apparently a handful of native speakers, folks who were raised speak in Esperanto.
- [107:25]
Chaya Raichik
Oh, wow.
- [107:26]
James Stout
Yeah, it's really, really, really cool.
- [107:28]
Chaya Raichik
Yeah.
- [107:29]
James Stout
But L2 speakers are somewhere between 30,000. L2 being, you know, second language speakers are somewhere between 30,000 to 2 million. According to Wilfurth's article on Esperanto and anarchism, there are tens of thousands of books in Esperanto and several hundred mostly sworn periodicals that appear regularly. Hardly a day passes throughout international meetings, such as those of specialised organisations, conferences, youth get togethers, seminars, group holidays and regional meetings. There are several radio stations that broadcast programs in Esperanto, and Esperanto has even been used by couples of different origins as a family language.
- [108:10]
Chaya Raichik
It's cool.
- [108:11]
James Stout
Funny enough, as with every language, even an aspiring universal language, it has since had its own offshoot. I saw on Wikipedia that merely a year after Zamenhof's creation of Esperanto in 1888, Dutch author J. Brackman proposed a few changes to language, like combining the ending for the adjective and adverb, changing conjugations, introducing more Latin roots, getting rid of the diacritics and so on. This language would be called Mundo Linko, and it was the first of many offshoots from Esperanto proper. Even Zamenhof would try to reform the language at one point in 1894, but it was rejected by the Esperanto community and eventually even himself. These reforms would later be used to develop ido, another attempt at universal language, with far less success. I also learned via Wikipedia that there was an attempt to make Esperanto more complex by introducing Cherokee components called Policepo. Created by a Native American activist named Billy Ray Walden, Esperanto speakers continue to play with the language in all sorts of ways to this day. Esperanto is an evolving language and Sammenhoff himself is honoured as part of this global Esperanto culture. They celebrate his birthday 15th December. There are statues and streets and plaques remembering him worldwide. And even an asteroid bears his name. At one point, according to the BBC article, there was an effort to establish an Esperanto speaking land called Amikejo, which would have been a 3.5 square kilometer territory between the Netherlands, Germany and France. Yeah, nice. 3.5 square kilometers.
- [109:51]
Chaya Raichik
Yeah. Not huge. Yeah, it's like, how big? I know we got a few of those, like, little ones in Europe, you know.
- [109:58]
James Stout
Yeah. A couple microstates. It could have been another microstate, but the idea was very quickly squashed following.
- [110:03]
Chaya Raichik
World War I. Yeah, I know. The Senate, the Spanish Anarcho Syndicalist Union was like, in its first congress, like its foundational congress, I suppose they were like. And everyone has to. Everyone should try and learn Esperanto. Like, that was one of their. The things at the foundation of what became probably the most powerful anarchist movement the world's ever seen. They were like, also, this is a big thing.
- [110:27]
James Stout
Yeah, yeah. Esperanto was really huge in the anarchist movement at a certain point.
- [110:31]
Chaya Raichik
Point, yeah.
- [110:33]
James Stout
But we're gonna get to those connections soon enough. I want to bring up this other interesting story. There was actually an effort by Esperantists, including a delegate from Iran, to get the language to become the official language of the League of Nations. But take one guess as to which country blocked that effort.
- [111:04]
Chaya Raichik
Was it one of the Anglophone countries?
- [111:06]
James Stout
No.
- [111:07]
Chaya Raichik
Oh, wow. The French.
- [111:09]
James Stout
It was the French, yeah.
- [111:11]
Chaya Raichik
There is not a state more invested in its language than France. Indeed, they have laws, I think, about broadcasting music and dubbing films and things.
- [111:22]
James Stout
Yeah. The French government seemingly hated Esperanto, at least according to an article on IMP of the Diverse blog site. They blocked its study in universities and public schools. And as the article quotes the opponents directly, on September 10, 1922, the New York Tribune ran a translation of a piece by the editor in chief of lemartine, Stephane Lausanne. Mr. Lauzanne spent half his editorial writing about Esperante. And I'm not going to do a French accent for this section. But just imagine, like the most French Frenchman reading this, that Finns or Albanians favoured such a propaganda is comprehensible. Their dialect has no chance of imposing itself on the universe. They need a second language just as well Esperanto as any other. But that French people or English or Germans could have let themselves be allured by this linguistic Bolshevism that is far more extraordinary. It is nevertheless a fact that Esperanto, which was born 25 years ago and ought to have died through ridicule, continues to have disciples in Europe. Every year, in a different capital, they hold a congress at which they are not very numerous, but where they make a great noise. They get so excited that quite recently the Minister of Public Instruction had to address a circular to all the French educational resorts to warn them against the danger of Esperanto. An article in the Washington Herald on that same day explained the danger, at least according to the Ministry of Public Instruction. The reason for this order, according to certain schoolteachers, is that teaching of a language as easy as Esperanto endangers the existence of the French language and thus the national solidarity of the country. They contend that children will naturally take to an easy language such as Esperanto do, and in that time French and English would perish and that the literary standard of the world would be debased. Furthermore, they argue that a national language plays a predominant part in maintaining national unity, and point to Poland and Lorraine as examples. Esperanto is an artificial language of no real merit, writes one professor. It has no very definite origin. And while it aims to draw the scattered people of the world together, does it not rather tend to denationalization?
- [113:48]
Chaya Raichik
They're not wrong. Like France is like language, if you read like peasants into Frenchmen, is kind of the classic work on, like, French nationalization. But like, in order to make people French, they did have to suppress, like Basque and Breton and Catalan and other languages, right? And make people go to Schools where they learned French and conceived of themselves as French as a result of that.
- [114:10]
James Stout
Yeah. Their imposition of the Ashen identity was perhaps among the most successful in the world in terms of its earliness and its consistent enforcement.
- [114:22]
Chaya Raichik
It shows like nations are always projects of the bourgeoisie. Right. At least I would argue that. And so a lot of other people. But the French example is one where we can see it more clearly than others. It's a state, and specifically a certain class within the state's project to enforce and and continue to perpetuate this narrative of nation.
- [114:45]
James Stout
And you know, they weren't the only enemies of Esperanto. And do you know that saying, judge me by my enemies?
- [114:53]
Chaya Raichik
Yeah. Who else have we got?
- [114:55]
James Stout
Nazi Germany, Francoist, Spain and the Soviet Union also hated.
- [115:01]
Chaya Raichik
Esperanto gets cooler with everyone.
- [115:03]
James Stout
The Nazis, they were nationalists. And Zamenhof was Jewish, so his family was actually targeted. And Delanguos was banned. And Esperantists were targeted and put in camps during the Holocaust, which is really tragic.
- [115:17]
Chaya Raichik
Yeah, pretty fucked. Yeah.
- [115:19]
James Stout
His whole family was heavily targeted by Nazi Germany. Franco associated Esperanto with anti nationalism and anarchism, which. True.
- [115:29]
Chaya Raichik
Yeah. He wasn't wrong.
- [115:30]
James Stout
So it was targeted for a while.
- [115:33]
Chaya Raichik
Yeah.
- [115:34]
James Stout
And the Soviets, while originally recognizing Esperantus, eventually reversed that policy under Stalin during the Great Purge and executed exiled or gulagged Esperantists. And as you can imagine, all that repression all at once kinda killed Esperanto's momentum. Today, despite its goal of being a truly international language, Esperanto's global reach remains uneven. While it has made some strides in recent years, it's still underrepresented in many parts of Africa and Asia. The majority of Esperanto speakers today are in Europe, though its development outside of Europe deserves some attention, as Esperanto managed to leave a mark in China, Iran, Togo and the Democratic Republic of Congo. But the response to Esperanto historically should give you an indication as to how anarchists must have felt about Esperanto as an internationalist or anti nationalist movement. Anarchism was very supportive of the Esperanto project. Let me run you through the timeline, courtesy Wilfurth's Esperanto and Anarchism. One of the earliest anarchist Esperanto groups was founded in Stockholm in 1905, the same year the anarchist Paul Berthelot founded the monthly magazine Esperanto. Similar groups soon emerged in Bulgaria, China and other countries. In 1906, anarchist anarchist Siniklaus founded an international association, Paco Libereco Peace Freedom, which published the Internacia socia revue. By 1910, Paco Libireco merged with Esperantista Laboristaro to form Liberriga Stelo Star of Liberation. Strengthening Anarchist Esperanto Networks the 1907 International Anarchist Congress in Amsterdam formally addressed the role of Esperanto in international communication. Subsequent anarchist congresses continued to pass resolutions advocating for Esperanto's use within the movement movement by 1914, these anarchist Esperantist organisations had published extensive revolutionary literature, including anarchist texts in Esperanto. Around this time, correspondence between European and Japanese anarchists became more active, facilitated by Esperanto. In Prague, Eugene Adam proposed the formation of Senaziesa Associio Tutmunde, the SAT or the World A National Association. Unlike other Esperanto associations, SAT rejected nationalism wholesale and sought to create a transnational class conscious workers movement. To quote why is there an Esperanto Workers Movement? By Gary Mickle, SAT was not meant to usurp the role of political parties while engaging in political struggles directly, but was to be a cultural association engaged in workers education, one that would help to break down national and ethnic barriers between workers by involving them in practical collective activity, bringing workers into contact, freeing them from the shackles of nationalism. SAT's ideas, and especially the ideas of its a nationalist faction were an early statement of an idea that has more recently come to be known as globalisation from below. So in August 1921, 79 workers from 15 countries gathered in Prague to formally established SAT. By 1929-1930 SAT had grown to 6,524 members across 42 countries, reaching its peak influence. The use of Esperanto flourished in German workers movements between 1920 and 1933. By 1932 the German Workers Esperanto League had 4,000 members, leading to Esperanto being called the Workers Latin. But as you can imagine, this was not to last. By the time Hitler came into power. The Scientific Anarchist Library of the International Language or ISAB was founded in the USSR in 1923. Published in Anarchist Works by Kropotkin and Anne Borovoi in Esperanto, this also would not last the Great Purge. The Berlin group of anarchist Nicholas Esperantis greeted the second congress of the International Workers association in Amsterdam in 1925 and reported that Esperanto had become so integrated into their movement that an international libertarian esperantist organisation had formed. This likely referred to the TLEs, the World League of Stateless Esperantists, which later merged with sat. Esperanto was also popping off amongst anarchists and socialists in Korea, China and Japan. Liu Shifu, a key figure in Chinese anarchism, began publishing La Vochoe de le Popolo, the Voice of the people, in 1913, the first anarchist periodical in China. His work relied heavily on information from Internacia Socia Revue and helped popularise Esperanto in China. Japanese anarchists and socialists, as I mentioned, were among the earliest Esperantists in the country, but faced heavy persecution and sadly, between Imperial Japan, Francois Speed, Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia. The rise of totalitarian regimes leading to World War II largely suppressed the anarchist Esperanto movement. After the war, the Paris Anarchist Esperanto Group was the first to resume organised work, launching the publication sen Staltano in 1946. Most anarchist Esperantists have since been organised within SAT, with an anarchist faction maintaining its autonomy. In 1969, this faction began publishing the Liberia Sana Bolteno, later renamed the Libretzana Ligilo. By 1997, SAT membership had dwindled to fewer than 1500 members. The initial radical vision of SAT was weakened by political shifts and the growing dominance of English as a global lingua franca. The early separation between SAT and mainstream Esperanto organisations was a response to bourgeois political neutrality, but it also contributed to its marginalisation. And today the anarchist Esperanto movement exists largely as a niche within satisfaction. So what can we say about the role of Esperanto today? Well, one of the more interesting currents I found within the Esperanto community mentioned by Firth is Raumismo, a philosophy named after the Finnish city of Rauma, where a Youth Congress in 1980 helped define this approach. Raou Mismo views Esperanto speakers as a kind of linguistic diaspora, a cultural group bound together by a shared language rather than a national identity. Instead of focusing on making Esperanto a universal second language, Raul Mistozh embraced it as just one language among many, valuing its use in literature, culture and everyday communication without any grand ideological ambition. But it's possible Esperanto can still play a role in facilitating exchange and collaboration between people of different linguistic backgrounds. A German anarchist once lamented the barriers to international understanding quoted in Firth's More or less in isolation from one another, we work and fight without engaging in an exchange about our victories and defeats and without supporting and encouraging one another. Intensifying contact above the regional level with people having similar ideas and aims should be an important component of our work work in order to make effective, active solidarity possible. And that's the trouble. Even today, linguistic barriers hinder international cooperation. Groups struggle to maintain foreign language correspondence, organize multilingual meetings, or find interpreters. Instead, communication tends to rely on chants. You know, someone in a group happens to speak a certain language, that determines who they can connect with. But when those key individuals move on, those connections can end up falling apart. So I get the appeal. I mean, wouldn't it be beneficial for these movements and for any interest group working across language barriers to have a relatively easy to learn, politically neutral means of communication? Major languages like English, Spanish, or French don't fully solve the problem as they come with historical baggage and imbalances in fluency levels. Esperanto, on the other hand, provides a more equitable solution because everybody is starting from the same point. Since it isn't tied to any one nation, it avoids the power dynamics that arise when non native speakers must conform to the linguistic norms of dominant cultures. Unlike English, which often privileges native speakers and places others as perpetual learners, Esperanto fosters a more level playing field. English is treated like a global lingua franca right now, but a lot of people leave school without ever developing enough fluency to navigate an English dominated world. And English is not the easiest language to learn. Esperanto, regardless of whether it ever becomes a global standard, offers an alternative path. It can help people overcome language learning anxieties, especially those who feel disempowered by traditional educational systems. And it can inspire an interest in language itself. If you've ever met an Esperanto speaker, you know that they are very passionate about linguistics. More often than not, many of its speakers go on to study linguistics, language politics, or even lesser known languages. It's also a great way to develop translation skills in a friendly, cooperative environment. For monolingual English speakers, using Esperanto can be an eye opening experience. It puts them in the shoes of those who never got to rely on their native language in international settings. Rather than viewing Esperanto as a competitor to other languages, perhaps a more productive approach is to see it as a tool for promoting multilingualism, cultural exchange, and a more cosmopolitan mindset. Within the Esperanto speaking community, opinions and its future vary widely. But one thing is clear. The question of how we communicate across linguistic divides is still very much alive, and Esperanto offers but one possible answer. However, as I alluded to earlier, Esperanto is not without its critiques. As covered by Firth. Let's start with one of the most frequent critiques. Esperanto is an artificial language. Unlike the so called natural languages which evolved organically over time, Esperanto was deliberately Constructed. But here's the thing. Since the rise of the nation state, the line between natural and artificial languages has become increasingly blurry. Many national languages, like standard German or Standard French have been shaped by deliberate standardisation, legal regulations and media influence. In that sense, every language is to some degree engineered. Authors, storytellers and ordinary speakers continuously influence language development. Meaning that Esperanto is not as different after all. It does continue to evolve. And here's where I think, like James C. Scott had a rather negative characterisation of Esperanto as a purely high modernist endeavour. As though all Esperantos sought to make Esperanto the official international language in Scene Like a State. He claims that Esperanto was created to replace the dialects and vernaculars of Europe. But such was never the case. It was always meant to be a language used to facilitate communication. There was more than one motivation for Esperanto's use and boiling. Such an exercise in human creativity and attempted connection down to just that status Focus, to me seems needlessly reductive. He also calls it an exceptionally thin language without any of the resonances, connotations, ready metaphors, literatures, oral histories, idioms and traditions of practical use that any socially embedded language already had. Which may be true when it began, but it's certainly not true now. Now with over a century of use and evolution.
- [127:17]
Chaya Raichik
Yeah.
- [127:19]
James Stout
His analogies between Esperanto and planned cities also miss the mark for me as Esperanto has clearly operated as a self organized and grassroots movement for most of its history and has never really received the backing of states or their enforcement.
- [127:34]
Chaya Raichik
It's a weird angle from Scott because normally he'd advocate for like what he calls like the anarchist squint. Right. Like in seeing history through a perspective of anarchism, I guess, or like an anarchist lens. And I feel like.
- [127:46]
James Stout
Exactly.
- [127:47]
Chaya Raichik
This is very applicable with Esperanto. Like the only language which isn't inherently tied to any state or nation or ethnicity.
- [127:56]
James Stout
Exactly. When I saw that, I remember reading Scene Like a State some years ago and I probably glossed over that. But in doing the research for this, I ended up, you know, stumbling upon it again and I was like, after reading the history, it's like this isn't quite accurate.
- [128:12]
Chaya Raichik
Yeah, yeah, that's a bummer.
- [128:13]
Ella Yurman
Yeah.
- [128:14]
James Stout
Generally like Scott, me as well.
- [128:16]
Chaya Raichik
Yeah. Recently some listeners very kindly, James C. Scott passed away out of this net, as I'm sure you know, Andrew.
- [128:23]
James Stout
Yes.
- [128:24]
Chaya Raichik
But his library was donated to a local secondhand bookshop and some folks I asked online and they went and got me Some books and sent them, which was really kind. So I have some of his books now.
- [128:35]
James Stout
Oh, that's nice.
- [128:36]
Chaya Raichik
Yeah.
- [128:36]
James Stout
There's another common claim about Esperanto, which is that it's Eurocentric. Right. And linguistically, there's some truth to this. Esperanto originated in Eastern Europe, and it still carries structural elements that resemble Indo European languages. The majority of Esperanto speakers today are European, and its vocabulary is largely drawn from European languages. However, critics who make this argument often suggest alternatives like English or Spanish, languages that are just as, if not more, Eurocentric in their historical and political reach. Esperanto, in contrast, has evolved through influence from non European languages as well, particularly through its development in China and Japan, its aglutinative word formation, a feature more common in languages like Turkish or Japanese, and what some call the Hungarian period of Esperanto's history. So while Esperanto has European roots, its global evolution challenges the idea that it's exclusively European in character. Another critique is that Esperanto is sexist. The argument goes that because feminine forms are typically created by adding in to a base form, like laboristo worker becoming labrastino, the language assumes masculinity as the default. And while this is a valid concern, Esperanto differs from many European languages in a key way. It does not assign grammatical gender to inanimate objects. A chair isn't arbitrarily feminine, like in French, or masculine like in German. However, in practice, gender bias can still creep in. The basic form of a noun is often assumed to be masculine, even though Esperanto allows for explicitly male forms as well. Like in any language, reducing linguistic sexism in Esperanto requires conscious effort in how people actually use it.
- [130:24]
Chaya Raichik
Yeah, that's an interesting one. Like, we see this in Spanish too, right? With attempts to create gender neutral forms, the presumptive masculine. Or if you're addressing a mixed gender group, then you would use the masculine. But people who are first language Spanish speakers can correct me. I'm sure you will on the subreddit if you want to. So when I hear in English language media, it's referred to as latinx, but that's kind of a word that I struggle to say in Spanish. Like, is it Latin equis or is it Latinx? And so there's this very kind of clumsy, gender neutral form which seems to be easier to say in English than Spanish.
- [131:03]
James Stout
Yeah, I've seen Latin used in some circles.
- [131:07]
Chaya Raichik
Yeah.
- [131:07]
James Stout
Latine, Latinae. Yeah.
- [131:10]
Chaya Raichik
When I speak to non binary people in Spanish, that's what they prefer to use. Of the relatively small sample size, given that there are probably millions of non binary Spanish speaking people, I haven't obviously spoken to all or most of them. But like, it's very interesting to see this outside critique of the language, which seems to also ignore an inside movement within people who are Spanish first language speakers, to create a organic, gender neutral form which could also happen in any language. Right. Just because Esperanto has these certain forms doesn't mean that people within that language who don't feel represented by them can create forms within that language to better represent them.
- [131:50]
Mia Wong
Exactly.
- [131:50]
Chaya Raichik
And it's easier because you don't have a government telling you you can't use it or whatever.
- [131:54]
James Stout
Exactly, exactly. Esperanto is and continues to be a grassroots movement. And that has actually been a subject of critique for some. You know, perhaps one of the biggest critiques of Esperanto is that it never achieved its original goal of becoming a universal second language. Zamenhof, its creator, envisioned a world where Esperanto would bridge linguistic divides. But for many, learning a language that relatively few people spoke simply wasn't practical. But the rise of the Internet changed the game for Esperanto. What was once difficult to learn and use daily has become far more accessible. For example, Esperanto is actually one of the most overrepresented languages on the Internet, the Esperanto. Wikipedia has around 240,000 articles putting it in the same league as languages spoken by tens of millions of people like Turkish and Korean. Google and Facebook have offered Esperanto versions of their platforms for years. And language learning services like Duolingo have helped introduce it to a new generation of learners like myself. In fact, the people who developed Esperanto courses for Duolingo did so voluntarily, simply because they believed in the language's potential. Esperanto has fostered a unique online community, and there's even a free hospitality network called Passporta Servo, where Esperanto speakers can stay with each other around the world. No money required, just a shared language and a common philosophy of global connection. Not everyone learns Esperanto for the same reasons. Some people seek intellectual challenge, some want a sense of unique community, and others are drawn to its political neutrality. As communications lecturer Sara Marino points out in the BBC article, people engage in Esperanto for many different motivations. Whether it's personal fulfilment, social inclusion, civic engagement, or just the simple joy of learning a new language. It's important not to reduce Esperanto learners to a stereotype. Their reasons for participating are as diverse as the language itself. So where does Esperanto stand today? It would never replace English as the global lingua franca, but perhaps that was never the point. Instead, it serves as a tool for promoting bilingualism, fostering cross cultural connections, and encouraging people to think differently about language itself. And I think that is worthy of its own reward. That's all I have for today. All power to all the people. Peace.
- [134:38]
Garrison Day
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- [135:40]
Israel Gutierrez
Hosting a new podcast, Dub Dynasty. The story of how the Golden State warriors have dominated the NBA for over a decade.
- [135:49]
Ella Yurman
The Golden State warriors once again are NBA champions.
- [135:53]
James Stout
From the building of the corps that.
- [135:55]
Israel Gutierrez
Included Klay Thompson, Draymond Green to one of the boldest coaching decisions in the.
- [136:00]
Robert Evans
History of the sport.
- [136:01]
James Stout
I just felt like the biggest thing.
- [136:03]
Israel Gutierrez
Was to earn the trust of the.
- [136:04]
James Stout
Players and let the players know that we were here to try to help them take the next step, not tear anything down.
- [136:10]
Israel Gutierrez
Today, the warriors dynasty remains alive in large part because of a scrawny 6.
- [136:15]
James Stout
Foot 2 hooper who everyone seems to.
- [136:17]
Israel Gutierrez
Love for what Steph has done for the game.
- [136:19]
Mia Wong
He's certainly on that, like Mount Rushmore.
- [136:21]
James Stout
For guys that have changed it, come revisit this magical warriors ride.
- [136:26]
Israel Gutierrez
This is Dub Dynasty.
- [136:27]
James Stout
The Dubs dynasty is still very much alive.
- [136:31]
Israel Gutierrez
Listen to Dub Dynasty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [136:43]
James Stout
In 1978, Roger Caron's first book was published and he was unlike any any first time author Canada had ever seen.
- [136:51]
Lex McMenamon
Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted.
- [136:54]
Ella Yurman
Has spent 24 of those years in.
- [136:56]
James Stout
Jail, 12 years in solitary. He went from an ex con to a literary darling almost overnight. He was instantly a celebrity.
- [137:05]
Israel Gutierrez
He was an adrenaline junkie, and he.
- [137:09]
Mia Wong
Was the star of the show.
- [137:11]
James Stout
Go Boy is the gritty true story of how one man fought his way out of some of the darkest places imaginable. I had a knife go in my.
- [137:18]
Chaya Raichik
Stomach, puncture my spleen, break my ribs.
- [137:21]
Kevin Smith
I had my guts all in my.
- [137:22]
James Stout
Hands, only to find himself back where he started.
- [137:26]
Mia Wong
Roger's saying is, I've never hurt anybody but myself. And I said, oh, you're so wrong.
- [137:31]
James Stout
You're so wrong on that one. Rod from Campside Media and iHeart Podcasts. Listen to Goboy on the I Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, kids, it's me, Kevin Smith.
- [137:47]
Harley Quinn Smith
And it's me, Harley Quinn Smith.
- [137:49]
James Stout
That's my daughter, man. Who my wife has always said is just a beardless, dickless version of me. And that's the name of our podcast, Beardless Me.
- [137:56]
Mia Wong
I'm the old one, I'm the young one.
- [137:58]
James Stout
And every week we try to make each other laugh really hard. Sounds innocent, doesn't it? A lot of cussing, a lot of bad language. It's for adults only. Or listen to it with your kid. Could be a family show. We're not quite sure. We're still figuring it out.
- [138:09]
Lex McMenamon
It's a work in progress.
- [138:10]
James Stout
Listen to Beardless me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [138:22]
Harley Quinn Smith
This is it could happen here. Executive Disorder, our weekly newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world, and what it means for you. I'm Garrison Day. Today I'm joined by Mia Wong, James Stout, and Robert Evans. This week, we're covering the week of April 3rd to April 9th. We have recovered from Liberation Day. Fully liberated.
- [138:44]
Robert Evans
Yeah.
- [138:44]
Harley Quinn Smith
And now the economy is back to normal, right?
- [138:48]
Ella Yurman
Yes. Everything's really good. Everyone's 401ks have been normal and stable and stable and stable. That's what's important.
- [138:59]
Chaya Raichik
Just line go up.
- [139:00]
Ella Yurman
The economy runs from stability. I mean, one of the things the line did was go up.
- [139:06]
Chaya Raichik
So, yeah, the line's gone.
- [139:08]
Ella Yurman
Why should anyone complain?
- [139:10]
Chaya Raichik
The line's gone in a few different directions this week.
- [139:13]
Ella Yurman
Among the different directions the line went up was, you know, a portion of that time. Yes.
- [139:18]
Chaya Raichik
Yeah, yeah. The only direction it hasn't gone is left, I guess, which, you know, we're waiting for that one.
- [139:23]
Ella Yurman
In related news, a dead cat can bounce. I don't know why they picked a cat for the dead animal to bounce to refer to that stock market term.
- [139:32]
Chaya Raichik
But I think this is a term that's new to Garrison. Just judging by their facial expression.
- [139:37]
Ella Yurman
You don't know what that is.
- [139:39]
Harley Quinn Smith
No.
- [139:39]
Ella Yurman
So basically, when a stock price for a company or whatever collapses, right. There will generally be. It will straight a line down and then it will bump back up and it will look like it's rallying. But this isn't generally a rally. What it is is that when people like, like short a stock, there's a point at which they have to, like, buy back the share, like shares, and that artificially inflates it briefly before it then begins to decline again. So it's not a real. It's the result of how short selling works that there has to be this thing that makes it temporarily look like it's rallying, but that. That's really not what's happening.
- [140:16]
Harley Quinn Smith
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I'm familiar with this concept.
- [140:18]
Ella Yurman
And they call it a dead cat.
- [140:20]
Chaya Raichik
Yeah, it's referred to as a dead cat bounce. Yeah.
- [140:22]
Ella Yurman
I don't know why it's referred to. Referred to as a dead cat bounce, but it is because stockbrokers are not normal people.
- [140:28]
Robert Evans
They're not, they're not white.
- [140:29]
Chaya Raichik
Right.
- [140:29]
Mia Wong
These, these are Wall street guys. One of them has probably done it. Like, that's, that's probably why it's called that.
- [140:34]
Ella Yurman
Like, yeah, look, I've thrown a lot of corpses at a lot of things, and they don't really bounce.
- [140:40]
Harley Quinn Smith
Speaking of corpses, Robert, you have some exciting news on the army.
- [140:44]
Chaya Raichik
It's pronounced core garrison.
- [140:46]
Ella Yurman
Yes, yes. The good news is the army is going to be more lethal and efficient than ever before, which President Trump announced while sitting in the White House next to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who had to take roughly a twice the length of trip he normally has to take to go here because so many countries that he would normally fly over or stop in have arrest warrants out for him for all of the war crimes.
- [141:13]
Chaya Raichik
Oh, we'd love to see it, but.
- [141:15]
Ella Yurman
You know, it's not about the journey. It's about, you know, the people you journey to. And Netanyahu met with Trump, you know, someone whom he clearly feels very safe and, you know, I dare I say loving with. And the two of them shared the most intimate bond that two elderly men who have committed war crimes can share, which is announcing a record budget for the United states military of $1 trillion. Well, I should say Trump stated it would be in the vicinity of $1 trillion. Now, does that mean possibly that very little is changing about the military budget? Yes, it does, and we'll get to that in a second. Hegseth, our Secretary of Defense, made a post on Twitter right after saying Trump is rebuilding our military and fast. He also really bragged about that trillion dollar amount and said, P.S. we intend to spend every taxpayer dollar wisely on lethality and readiness. Now here's the thing. Trillion dollars, shitload of money. Current amount of funding allocated to national defense programs, $892 billion. So, trillion dollars, about a 10% bump, right, for, you know, national defense programs. But it's actually unclear the way in which he phrased things and the way in which we, like, talk about the funding for national security. This could mean that basically the military will have pretty much the same, you know, something of an increase, but not a mass, not really a significant difference from what it has now. And there will be more money into other defense related, related programs. So this is not like as massive a thing as it might necessarily sound like. I think one thing that's sort of significant here is like, how this comports with the way a lot of the folks on what we'll call the shithead left had talked about where there was this discussion that Trump's actually going to be, you know, bad for imperialism and the war machine. And, you know, there was even talk as of a couple of months ago that they were going to like, half the Pentagon budget. Like, you know, know, you know, all these, whatever else happens, you know, it's worth it if the, the military budget comes down and this, you know, imperial juggernaut of hell gets finally neutered.
- [143:21]
Chaya Raichik
And these people are stupid.
- [143:23]
Ella Yurman
Just all of those people are always wrong. They were always going to just make the army bigger. They were always going to put more money in defense. They were always, always going to put more money into the hands of defense contractors. Like, anyone who knows anything about these people or about how Republicans have worked knew that was going to happen. There was never any change, chance that they were going to cut the actual amount of money. Now they're probably going to cut the number of people in the military because despite what Hegseth said, there's a lot of evidence that a shitload of this is going to go towards modernization. And in fact, armed services, each branch is being our armed services, are all being asked to cut about 8% of their individual budgets in order to put money into modernization efforts, which Obviously, any military needs to regularly modernize different systems. But this is also a thing where if your country is run entirely by grifters and conmen trying to shotgun money to their political supporters who have a lot of money in different defense companies. What this means to me is you are probably going to see them continue to trim numbers of actual troops and put more money into bullshit that gets a lot of money to contractors. Yeah, that's. That is my expectation. That is what I see happening more than anything here. We'll see. But I think a lot of this additional money is going to go towards buying shit that may or may not be useful. But the primary purpose of putting the money into that shit is because somebody who is somebody gets a vig.
- [144:46]
Chaya Raichik
Yeah. I mean, if we look at fascism as a concept too, it kind of. It has this troubled relationship with modernity. But one of the things it likes to do is flex its new little weapon systems and toys. And we're going to see some guys posing with some weapon systems that probably never get used used. Right. Like probably some AI targeting shit, stuff like that. Yeah.
- [145:05]
Ella Yurman
Oh yeah.
- [145:05]
Robert Evans
Oh yeah.
- [145:06]
Chaya Raichik
Israel already does that.
- [145:07]
Ella Yurman
Yeah.
- [145:08]
Harley Quinn Smith
Well, we gotta find some way to reallocate the alleged $150 billion in DOGE cuts, which is certainly a fake number.
- [145:18]
Ella Yurman
Absolutely a fake number.
- [145:19]
Harley Quinn Smith
We may as well send over 200 billion more to the Defense Department.
- [145:23]
Ella Yurman
Based on early IRS filings, there's something like half a trillion dollars that we might be losing in tax income this year. So, you know, net, I don't think we're doing great. I should also note here, a big part of the money that they're going to get from modernization is coming from cutting 50 to 60,000 civilian jobs, many of whom are veterans, but also just in terms of like military readiness. Guys like Hegseth, who's primarily a push up dude and people who don't know anything about the military see it as like, well, you know, the military, you just want as many door kickers as you possibly can and you actually need very few of those guys. Would need a lot of is guys that can move things to different places and fix things when they break and do a lot of the paperwork that's necessary to make both of those things possible, which is why you need those jobs. And cutting a shitload of them is not likely to increase readiness. This. It's also worth noting that the US army is looking at a force reduction of up to 90,000 active duty soldiers. This is based on an article from April 4th which is a significant reduction. And again like, we're not.
- [146:32]
Harley Quinn Smith
Is that real?
- [146:33]
Ella Yurman
Yes.
- [146:34]
Harley Quinn Smith
Why. Why are they doing a 90% reduction?
- [146:37]
Ella Yurman
In part because it's very hard for them to find new active duty soldiers.
- [146:41]
Mia Wong
Huh.
- [146:41]
Ella Yurman
It is not easy to get people to do this. And it is not the priority of anybody in charge of anything to actually get more soldiers. The priority is to put more money systems and AI and all this. Like, I don't think they have a vested interest in actually helping with that.
- [146:57]
Harley Quinn Smith
How are, how are we going to take Greenland with drones? Like, what are we doing?
- [147:01]
Ella Yurman
Yeah, probably. I mean, there's not a lot of people.
- [147:04]
Harley Quinn Smith
Probably how we're going to do it.
- [147:05]
Ella Yurman
There's not a lot of people in.
- [147:06]
Harley Quinn Smith
Greenland garrison excited for the naval blockade of Greenland.
- [147:11]
Robert Evans
Yeah.
- [147:12]
Harley Quinn Smith
Kick off in about two months.
- [147:15]
Ella Yurman
Yeah, it's, it's going to be great. Anyway, they're going to make like part of why I think they feel confident trying to make, you know, they're calling this making the army smaller and more agile is because Trump is doing his best to make friends with Russia. And we're certainly not going to. Whatever happens with Taiwan, the US Military is not going to be involved.
- [147:35]
Chaya Raichik
Yeah, yeah. We ain't going to go bad for them.
- [147:37]
Ella Yurman
You know, his attitude is like, what do we need this for? We need an agile military that we can use to fuck with Greenland and Panama. Like, that's, that's what we're going to be doing.
- [147:46]
Chaya Raichik
Two very similar biomes where, like, everything is very similar.
- [147:50]
Ella Yurman
Yeah. And there's a lot of people, like, you know, the folks running Palantir who have an increasing amount of say in what happens to the military and you know, what Trump does, who are basically advocating for, like, we're going to have this whole kill chain automated soon. We barely need people. You can't trust people. You know how untrustworthy your generals have proved. Donald.
- [148:10]
Chaya Raichik
Cool.
- [148:11]
Harley Quinn Smith
Well, I'm excited for some more Arctic camo surplus to hit the market once the Greenland situation is resolved.
- [148:19]
Chaya Raichik
I'm excited to be fucking around wondering who a drone's gonna kill next. That has been a really life affirming experience for me and I'm excited to have it again soon. It's gonna be great. Robbie, you mentioned the IRS and IRS maybe get less money. So I'm going to talk a little bit about the irs. I guess let's just start with like a little summary of this week immigration news this week. Chaya Raichik, who is the person who runs Libs of TikTok, joined ICE on a raid.
- [148:48]
Ella Yurman
She is, shall we say, the Julius Stryker of our modern fascist movement.
- [148:55]
Chaya Raichik
Yeah, yeah, I guess you're right. Damn. Sorry, I'm just.
- [149:00]
Ella Yurman
Yeah, no, I mean, I wasn't joking about that. That's the most direct comparison to that.
- [149:04]
Chaya Raichik
Yeah, sorry. I just took a moment to reflect on that and that's not a great thing to reflect on.
- [149:09]
Ella Yurman
It's really not. No, it doesn't make me feel good.
- [149:11]
Chaya Raichik
Yeah, no. Other things that don't make me feel good are the 60 Minutes report. 75% of people sent to Secot had no criminal conviction, which seems to leave open the possibility of there being a crime for which it would be okay to be sent to a foreign gulag with no hope of return, which I don't believe is the case. Like, yeah, I'm very disappointed at any reporting which focuses on guilt. As if one could ever be guilty of anything which would make this justifiable. You can't. The government is also soliciting for proposals this week to massively increase migrant detention, which again is not surprising. Right. We talked about this last November, but it's also not great. But where I'm going to focus today is on the IRS and the Abrego Garcia case that we spoke about last week. So you will have seen some reporting that the IRS has said it will hand over information to people who are subject to criminal investigation to DHS or ice.
- [150:01]
Ella Yurman
Right.
- [150:02]
Chaya Raichik
ICE being under dhs. So they say. What happened here is that part of court filings, a memorandum of understanding between ICE and the IRS was released in the MOU or in the court filing, actually they cite an offense of failure to depart the United States after being ordered removed. So essentially anyone who they're saying like you have to go right, they could then ask for their tax return information. Exactly. What the IRS will disclose to ICE is covered by a big black redaction in the court documents. So we don't know that the entire MOU is submitted. But like there's significant redactions in it. ICE has to hand. One thing that's not redacted is that ICE has to hand over the person's name, address and the crime of which they're for which they're investigating. And it has to be a non tax crime. Not that that matters. Hugely this is more limited than a lot of people have feared and it's more limited than a lot of the reporting I've seen. It's possible that there's something else going on. I saw the acting director at ICE was going to quit over this. I saw that this morning. But the fact that they have to have their address suggests that they couldn't locate them using the tax return form. Right. Which is. Which is a good thing. Like, it is one last step towards fascism, I guess. I'm also aware of ICE having memorandums of understanding with other agencies to include hud.
- [151:23]
Ella Yurman
Right.
- [151:23]
Chaya Raichik
Housing and Urban Development, government. All of this is going to reduce the amount that migrant communities engage with the federal government to any degree. Right. Contrary to what you might have heard, undocumented people do tend to pay their taxes. It's actually relatively rare for them not to do that. And this might change if the IRS starts handing over people's tax return information to ice. Right. Obviously, if HUD starts handing over people's information, that's going to lead to people not being as willing to take housing benefits, more people ending up living on the street. Right. On the other hand, Houston, the city in Texas, for those of you who aren't familiar. Have I pronounced that right, Robert Tejas? Yeah, I thought it was. I wasn't sure if it was. Houston.
- [152:03]
Harley Quinn Smith
Houston.
- [152:04]
Chaya Raichik
Oh, Houston. Understood.
- [152:07]
Ella Yurman
It's a place we just don't go. That's how I refer to Houston.
- [152:11]
Chaya Raichik
Okay, beautiful. So this Texas no man's land town has turned over information, including addresses and license pages for people charged with driving without a license, even though some of this, under Texas law is supposed to remain confidential. So that's great. They are also now making immigration detentions at regular traffic stops. So I'm aware of one incident where a man was arrested after being stopped for a cracked windscreen, and he's now in ICE detention. So that there was presumably an ICE warrant for this person that the Houston police then acted upon.
- [152:41]
Harley Quinn Smith
I mean, and this is. This can just be racial profiling. Right. Like, if they could just pull someone over and then send them to ice, like, they're just gonna start pulling over as many people that they don't want to be in Houston.
- [152:53]
Chaya Raichik
Yeah. Like, we already know that police departments have a tendency to pull over people who aren't white more often.
- [152:58]
Robert Evans
Right.
- [152:59]
Chaya Raichik
And then, like, if you give them this, that's just going to exacerbate that further. Again. It's also going to stop migrant communities interacting with the police in any way. Right. This obviously has. Look, not a big police fan, but, like, in cases like domestic violence, right. Sometimes people need to go to the police to be safe, and they're not going to do so if they think that means they or people they love will be deported. And this will have negative consequences, specifically in cases like domestic violence. And we Know this. There is plenty of evidence for this. Nonetheless, this is continuing anyway. What's also continuing is our obligation to pivot, to act, which we should do now.
- [153:47]
Harley Quinn Smith
Okay, we are back.
- [153:48]
Chaya Raichik
We're back. And it's time to talk about the Supreme Court.
- [153:52]
Harley Quinn Smith
Do we have to?
- [153:54]
Robert Evans
Yes.
- [153:55]
Chaya Raichik
Yes, we do, Garrison, because it's the biggest court. It's. It's the big one, and they've been crushing it all week, just. Just sending. Sending down decisions. The two big ones, I guess I want to talk about are a 5, 4 ruling that it was vacating Boasberg's TRO. Boasberg being the judge who had initially told the United States government that had to stop sending people to secot. And then the US had ignored Boasberg and done it anyway. And then they had this whole court case about how they hadn't ignored him. And anyway, it was a secret. Even though we're tweeting it, you can go back a couple of EDs and hear about that. In this decision, the court was unanimous in asserting that people removed under the Alien Enemies act do have a right to due process, but that they have to bring a habeas petition. So, like, the reason they vacated a TRO was that the case shouldn't have gone to Bozberg. Right. That they should have bought this habeas petition. In practice, that's going to be very hard given the fact that many migrants, even under the current system, even under Biden, most migrants who didn't speak English didn't have access to legal representation. So this. This ruling is still pretty bad. The only thing the people in the court case wanted to stop was their rendition to El Salvador.
- [155:06]
Robert Evans
Right.
- [155:06]
Chaya Raichik
It wasn't even, like, opposed to other forms of removal. It was specific to this El Salvador situation. The court also sort of cited criminal cases as precedent, which is a very different thing. And it gives this very narrow ruling of the due process available to migrants. Right. And it relies on migrants having access to a legal team, which could be expensive and complicated for them.
- [155:27]
Harley Quinn Smith
So this ruling allows Trump administration to send people to El Salvador as. As long as they have the quote, unquote right to do process, which is narrowly defined as something that not many people will have access to anyway.
- [155:44]
Chaya Raichik
Yes. Yeah. Well summarized. Yeah. You. You would need to have, like, a lawyer on retainer to file your. Your habeas right, like, straight away.
- [155:52]
Harley Quinn Smith
So if that just doesn't get filed, then you are basically, in their view, forfeiting your due process. And they can deport you anyway.
- [155:59]
Chaya Raichik
Well, they can deport you anyway. Yeah, I guess you have the right to, to, to appeal it like by saying like I'm going to file this habeas petition. But most people aren't going to do that. So in practice that they haven't explicitly ruled on the Secot thing.
- [156:15]
Robert Evans
Right.
- [156:15]
Chaya Raichik
The Abrego Garcia case, which is the other case, a 4th Circuit judge required the US to return Abrego Garcia to the US and then Chief Justice Roberts on his own issued an administrative state. So he is effectively telling them that 4th Circuit judge, you can't order them to have him return. Right now we need to take a timeout. We need everybody to get their evidence in order and then bring that to us. So that case like remains ongoing. Right. In the brief for that case, the government referred to Abdoul Garcia as an enemy alien. But I don't think MS.13 is covered by the evocation of the Alien Enemies Act. I think it was specific to trend Nicaragua. And then they also claim that they removed him under the Immigration Nationality act, not the Alien Enemies Act. So like none of this I guess is hugely surprising. We're seeing this like sort of post hoc justification of what they did. Right. Which is kind of how they operate. But that case still remains ongoing. So we're still, we're still going to hear that one which presumably will reflect on the constitutionality of sending people to secote. But like the fact that yeah, they ruled the other case. Right. The one that was five to four. It wasn't about whether Secot was legal. It was about whether Boasberg had the right to make a decision on this particular case. But it's still not great. Like it looks like the Supreme Court is doing everything it can to avoid a face to face showdown with the executive branch. Oh yeah, because they don't want to deal with the consequences of ignoring them.
- [157:49]
Mia Wong
Nope.
- [157:49]
Chaya Raichik
And like, like we, we said before, like maybe the only court that they will listen to is a Supreme Court. What if Supreme Court doesn't make them? Then they won't. So that's where we're at with that. Not great. Not exactly great at all.
- [157:59]
Robert Evans
Nope.
- [158:00]
Harley Quinn Smith
Well, do you know what is doing great? The economy. And for more on that, I think it's time for tariff talk with Mia Wong.
- [158:08]
Ella Yurman
Wait, wait, wait. Tariff talk.
- [158:16]
Chaya Raichik
Rocky, Caspar, Terry don't like it.
- [158:21]
Robert Evans
Rocky, Caspar, Rocky Casper.
- [158:26]
Ella Yurman
Ah, yeah. Ah. Every day, every time we do it.
- [158:30]
Chaya Raichik
The only band that matters.
- [158:32]
Ella Yurman
It's the only band that matters. The Narcissist Cookbook doing a very brief refrain from Rock the Kasbah the Worst Clash song song by a wide margin.
- [158:43]
Chaya Raichik
Yeah. The only Clash song to have been played during Operation Desert Storm, which made your strummer cry.
- [158:50]
Ella Yurman
A real catastrophe.
- [158:51]
Harley Quinn Smith
You know what isn't a catastrophe? The economy. Yeah.
- [158:55]
Israel Gutierrez
How's it going?
- [158:57]
Mia Wong
So I just saw a wonderful chart where someone was like, ah, this is one of the eight best days the S and P has ever had. And every single other one of those days is like 1929, 1931, 2008.
- [159:16]
Chaya Raichik
It's one of the best days for Mount St. Helens Air quality.
- [159:19]
Mia Wong
Yeah, it's so good. So, all right, the tariff situation as of 2:43pm Pacific Time on April 9.
- [159:29]
Ella Yurman
Is that there is fine going good.
- [159:33]
Chaya Raichik
No, it's gonna be cool, guys. Don't worry about it.
- [159:37]
Mia Wong
Okay, so there. There is an 125 tariff on all goods from China. Is that bad?
- [159:44]
Israel Gutierrez
I.
- [159:45]
Mia Wong
You know, there's a bit that I cut here where I was gonna say about how, like, at 54, I was like, we've entered the part of the map where it just says here there be dragons at 125. There's not even dragons there. They didn't even think to put that on the map as an unknown region. Hi, this is MIA from the future. It is now Thursday. One of the problems with attempting to do this episode is that we are learning the tariff rate from Twitter in real time. So it turns out that the actual tariff rate on China as. As clarified by. By Donald Trump today is 145%. And also it has become clear that the 25% turf tariffs on both Mexico and Canada are also still in effect. So. Yay.
- [160:39]
Ella Yurman
In medical terms, it means what happened to the global economy is equivalent to you getting hit directly in the spine by an F250 going 45 miles an hour. That's. That's, that's what's happened to the base of the global economy.
- [160:55]
Mia Wong
Yes. And I mean, it's. It is very funny that, like, a lot of people have been focusing on the bond stuff because you can just look at the tariff numbers and it's like, like, yeah, okay. Seeing a 125% tariff on all goods from China and then looking at the bond markets to figure out if that's bad or not is like, like, is like walking outside into a blizzard and being like, well, I need the weatherman to tell me if it's snowing. Like, what are we doing here? What are we doing here?
- [161:18]
Ella Yurman
The reason I'll explain, like, briefly. Treasury bonds are the underpinning of every country. The Entire global economy, every single country. Treasury has a shitload of money in U.S. treasury bonds because they are the most reliable thing. And what a Treasury bond is, is you give money to the US Government and they say in a period of time you can take this out and it will have grown by a set percentage because treasury bonds have been for the last basically a century so incredibly stable. This is where you put your money that you don't want to gamble. So you have, you know, money that is in stocks and stuff that can go up and down, but you also hedge your bets by having a bunch in this. And you know, generally treasury bonds are hopefully enough to about keep pace with inflation or beat it by a little bit, but usually the, the rate is not all that high because there's a shitload of demand. People are always buying treasury bonds when the treasury bond rate, which is the percentage you get back raises that may look good, right? They're like, wow, you can get 5% now on if you put money into a, into a 30 year T bond bond. But what that means is that everyone is selling their treasury bonds. So demand is down and the rate is higher and everyone is selling them because entire countries at a time are pulling their money out. Nations are pulling their money out of the US Economy.
- [162:35]
Chaya Raichik
It's great.
- [162:36]
Mia Wong
Yeah. And we are going to get more into how the Trump administration wants to fuck with that later. But first off, programming note, programming note, I am going to be from this episode forward, referring to all of these as the turf tariffs because fuck them and because these tariffs are in a large part also about a bunch of really weird fucking masculinity bullshit. So. God excited for that.
- [162:59]
Harley Quinn Smith
Yeah. And when you make most of your election ads being about trans people and then, and then the economy goes to the toilet, this is, this is what was voted for.
- [163:07]
Mia Wong
Like, if you wanted transphobia, this is what you wanted. You want, you wanted to lose your job. You wanted everyone to lose their fucking home.
- [163:12]
Ella Yurman
Speaking AT T bonds, am I right?
- [163:15]
Harley Quinn Smith
Let's skip over that immediately.
- [163:17]
Israel Gutierrez
No, no, no, no.
- [163:19]
Chaya Raichik
No one laugh at him.
- [163:20]
Ella Yurman
I'm gonna go way.
- [163:22]
Mia Wong
Okay, okay. So, so the, the most, the most chaotic thing happening here, other than Robert randomly saying things, is that nobody knows what the tariff situation is going to be just even just on Friday. When you're listening to this, right? Like you, by the time you're listening to this, there could be 200% tariffs on Indonesia, there could be 4,000% terrorists in Vietnam. We don't know.
- [163:47]
Ella Yurman
No, Trump could have dissolved the US Dollar and we're all using the fucking whatever. Like I don't, I don't know.
- [163:55]
Mia Wong
Yeah. And like, you know, so, so it's all really unstable. We can talk about the other things that are still in effect. So There's a general 10% tariff on. All countries except for China are just supposed to have a general 10% tariff. There's also this, per Megan Casella is a CNBC reporter, there are 25% tariffs on steel, aluminum and cars. There's probably going to be more. He keeps talking about more tariffs and it's like, who knows when they're going to happen? Like maybe pharmaceuticals, semiconductors. But the Liberation Day tariffs, turf tariffs.
- [164:30]
Harley Quinn Smith
Are currently on hold for 90 days at least as of right now.
- [164:35]
Mia Wong
Yeah, yeah.
- [164:36]
Harley Quinn Smith
And the, and, and the quote, unquote, reciprocal tariff tariffs have been lowered to 10%. For me at least. It's unclear. As of recording on Wednesday, Trump said that this is effect. This is in effect immediately. It's unclear if those 10% tariffs are also on hold for 90 days.
- [164:50]
Mia Wong
No, I think the 10% ones are in effect right now. But it's really hard to tell because he's just saying shit.
- [164:55]
Harley Quinn Smith
And yes, it's very hard to tell which is.
- [164:58]
Chaya Raichik
He's truthing it.
- [165:00]
Harley Quinn Smith
Yes, sorry, he is. He is True Socialing that this information.
- [165:03]
Chaya Raichik
That is how we have to work out the global economic future is based on posts on True social.
- [165:09]
Mia Wong
Yeah, so. So, okay. And one of the, one of the things that's been happening with, with the turf tariffs is that like the media is just record is reporting things as true that are just clearly obviously a lie. So one of the ones that's been going around and that the media is reporting that Trump has said is that he's, he said he's going to pause tariffs on countries that don't retaliate. Except we know that's a lie because the EU already imposed retaliatory tariffs. But the EU's turf tariff rate is like already down to 10% just like everyone else. So we know that Trump is lying about his rationale for the rollback of the turf tariffs. Right. And every single fucking media outlet is still just reporting it because nobody fucking knows how to do fricking reporting anymore. We should move to what this is going to do to the supply chain. And to put this in perspective, when I Learned about the 104% tariff on China, that was before it was 125%. Where it's at now, I was writing an episode called the Old Economy is Dead, which will probably Be still be coming out on Monday. Again that was the 54% rate. I was writing a thing called the old economy is dead. At 104% things are going to break in the supply chain that only seven people on earth have ever heard of before. Entire sectors of the economy are going to be annihilated. We're going to see, right now we're probably going to see everyone at attempt to root like all shipping from China there. There's going to be a massive effort to try to reroute it through like literally any other country. But again that's only a solution for like you know, 90 days. And, and again it's, it's not even clear that that can work. I mean I'm already seeing a bunch of reports small businesses being like yeah we're because and that was the 54% tariffs. And at 125% entire industries are non viable. Now it's maybe possible that if it was just these tariffs and all Chinese shipping was able to be routed through some other country, maybe we would only have a regular economic collapse like a, like, you know, like an early 2000s tech bubble collapse and not like a 2008 one. But again that's assuming that more and more tariffs go into effect. Now the problem is that we went through this with the 90 day pauses on the Mexican tariffs and the Canadian tariffs and then after 90 days everyone assumed that they weren't going to go to effect again. Then they just went into effect. So the odds are that the absolutely catastrophic turf tariffs from like Liberation Day are going to go into effect like in about, in about 90 days. Right? That's probably what's going to happen. There's probably going to be some attempts to negotiate them down but like again those absolutely catastrophic tariffs which are going to just fucking annihilate the entire world economy are probably going to go into effect. And you know, part of what's happening here, right, is that the, so the markets are doing this. They're, they're like dead cat bounce, right? And a lot of this is because they haven't actually stopped to think about like how much American manufacturing. And contra every argument everyone is making about this, there is actually a lot of manufacturing still in the U.S. but all of it relies on Chinese imports and various stages of production and they're fucked. And oh, I haven't even mentioned yet by the way, the sort of capstone to all of this is that China is doing an 84% retaliatory tariff on all American goods which is going to Just fuck. Massive portions of American agriculture. We've talked a lot on the show about soybean exports. It's going to be absolutely catastrophic. We're gonna go more into this on Monday. But, you know, the thing that's clear from this is that these people don't see the economy as real in the way that you and I do, right? They simply don't. You know, we. We look at the economy as something where we have to have a fucking job so we can go to work, so we can come home and fucking buy food for our families and pay our rent. And they think it's a fucking joke, right? They think it's a fucking masculinity signifier. And they think it's like. They look at tariff rates and they go, this is just a number on a fucking page. And that's why the tariff rate is now 125% on China, because it doesn't. None of this shit is real for them at all. Now do you know what is real?
- [169:11]
Ella Yurman
No, I.
- [169:12]
Mia Wong
The products and services that support this podcast.
- [169:17]
Chaya Raichik
Yep, yep, yep.
- [169:30]
Mia Wong
We are back now.
- [169:31]
Lex McMenamon
Okay.
- [169:32]
Mia Wong
One of the things that I've been seeing a lot of is there are a lot of arguments about whether there was some kind of plan here. Trump has claimed that he was gonna roll back the terrorists all along. And no, he wasn't just. No, he's just lying. He's just going by the seat of his pants. And I can prove that there is no plan here by moving on to the second thing that I wanna talk about here, which is a speech given by Council of Economic Advisors Chairman Steve Mirren at the Hudson Institute. So this is, this is again, the, the, The Council of Economic Advisors is, is a, A, a federal agency that is like, Their job is to provide economic advice to the president, right? And their chair gave a speech where he argues. And this is something that, like, I. Jesus fucking Christ. We were talking about, OK? The fact that every fucking country on earth has U.S. treasury bonds. We were talking about this earlier, right? The status of the US Dollar as the global reserve currency. This guy is arguing that that is actually a public good that other countries should pay us for. He wants to force countries to fucking pay taxes to the United states for holding U.S. treasury bonds.
- [170:42]
Ella Yurman
And again, if any nation on earth could pay to have their currency be the global reserve currency, there's no amount they wouldn't pay. Like, the degree to which this benefits you is ridiculous. Like the fact that you want to charge other people for it. It's not.
- [170:58]
Mia Wong
It is like, look, again, how this like actually works, right, is that every single other country on earth is forced to buy American debt, which is what a bond is, right?
- [171:09]
Ella Yurman
Yeah.
- [171:10]
Mia Wong
And this allows the US to carry out even more spending without inflationary effects. Every single other country on Earth, everything.
- [171:16]
Ella Yurman
Is based on this?
- [171:17]
Israel Gutierrez
Yes.
- [171:18]
Mia Wong
It's all forced on like other countries having to stockpile US dollars, like literally the entire global economy. The US's advantage in the entire global economy is that every single other fucking country on earth needs US dollars. Part of this is to buy oil and part of this is again because the dollar is the fucking reserve currency. It's a currency that fucking trade is done in. And the asset that you hold is, is like, is the fucking US bond. The anthropologist David Graeber called this in his book debt the first 5,000 years, a tribute system that again, every country in the world is forced to buy U.S. bonds. The U.S. government has just like fairly explicitly, like did this during the Reagan administration. Does this other times, like has just fairly explicitly leaned on countries and like you're buying a fucking, a fucking bunch of US bonds now, right? Like this is this system the status of the dollar of the world. Reserve currency is the entire lattice that supports and spreads the American empire. And these fucking clowns want people to pay taxes on the tribute that they are paying to us. This is not Donald Trump for Elon Musk, right? This is the guy these people brought in to be their economist to do economic policy. Yeah, there, there is no limit to their stupidity. There is no rock of sanity upon which the tide of madness will crash. Everything we have seen, we have seen so far is just a prelude to an infinite abyss of stupidity, so mind numbingly incomprehensible, it will shatter our minds like a snowflake in a hurricane. You can, you can no longer think to yourself, they cannot possibly be this stupid. They are thinking thoughts even gods could not comprehend. They are attempting to drain the sea by shouting at the moon. They are trying to wipe their ass with pinecones. There is no five dimensional plan here. There is not even a man behind the fucking curtain. There is only an infinite sea of cruelty, malice and stupidity trying to drown us all for the crime of attempting to exist in the world we were born in. The reality of the men who rule the American empire is this. It is so terrifying that everyone from the most powerful CEOs on the planet to the fucking day traders running the stock market, to broke leftist shitposters, recoil in horror and trying to construct meaning. And some kind of like anything, any kind of Strategy, any kind of strategic reason why anyone could possibly be doing this. Because the existence of a plan, literally any plan, no matter how evil it is, is preferable to this, which is that the largest economy in the world, the most powerful empire the world has ever seen, is being run by the dumbest people who have ever fucking lived. And they are doing this because they are evil and they're stupid.
- [173:57]
Ella Yurman
Yes. Yes, there's absolutely like. Yeah, yeah, no, nothing else to say really.
- [174:04]
Harley Quinn Smith
I think one of the things that is underpinning this, which you can pick up on if you are cursed enough to, to listen to enough of these speeches and enough of their, of their talking heads and podcasts is like this reoccurring trend in which these people really need to be victims in order to, in order to politically succeed. Which is an accusation that's usually thrown against, you know, woke SJWs. But like before the election, right, it was this idea that, that because, because of the Dem corrupt elite establishment, you know, everyday Americans are. Are, are victims of this, of this hidden cabal of Democrats that, that are ruining everything. But, but now that these people are in charge of, of, of the United States, the people who are victimizing us is just the entire world, right? The entire world is ripping off the United States by using our dollar, by, by doing trade with us. They are somehow ripping us off like we are the victims of this global scheme. And it's hurting you. You're at the average blue collar worker and it's making women adopt managerial positions. And, and this is the, this is what's actually is the core of, of your oppression. And even, even, even when they win, even when they control the country, they can't let go of this victim status. They have to have someone ripping them off in order to justify them doing just incomprehensible stupid power grabs. And it, it is very much linked to like this like masculine signifier. It's very odd like, like the way that people are trying to, trying to justify losing so much money in the stock market is by reposting a clip of some like Australian women doing a TikTok dance. Dancing on TikTok in like an office building. And they're like, well, you know, tariffs are, are, are much better than having to deal with women in the office. Am I right?
- [175:53]
Chaya Raichik
Women having a joke.
- [175:54]
Harley Quinn Smith
This is, this is, this is how they, this is how they justify it.
- [175:57]
Ella Yurman
At least we don't have woke. It's worth it to not be able to afford food. If the woke is the global log house.
- [176:05]
Chaya Raichik
That's A deep cut.
- [176:06]
Ella Yurman
Longhouse is burnt down. Sure. Because the longhouse has burnt down. We're now exposed to the elements and all of our food stores are gone and it's about to snow 18ft. But at least the longhouse, the longhouse.
- [176:20]
Chaya Raichik
With your they them nephew in it, that, that you hate and owned you at Thanksgiving is gone.
- [176:25]
Harley Quinn Smith
Shout out to your they them nephew.
- [176:27]
Chaya Raichik
Yeah, I guess. What's, what's nibbling? Nibbling is a correct non binary appellation.
- [176:31]
James Stout
In.
- [176:32]
Harley Quinn Smith
In other news, last week, President Trump said that he would be, quote, unquote, honored for the President of El Salvador to take U.S. citizens, which he calls American grown and born criminals, and put them into sika, the Terrorism Confinement center, which is essentially a prison work camp.
- [176:51]
Ella Yurman
Yep. That no one gets released from.
- [176:53]
Chaya Raichik
Yeah.
- [176:53]
Harley Quinn Smith
Trump said, quote, why should it stop just at people that cross the border illegally? Unquote.
- [177:00]
Chaya Raichik
But it shouldn't start there, but it.
- [177:03]
Harley Quinn Smith
Shouldn'T be there at all. And as James already mentioned, 75% of the immigrants sent to seekot don't have a criminal conviction. These people are not criminals. Now, a few days later, the White House press secretary reiterated that this is something that Trump is seriously discussing discussing both publicly and privately.
- [177:18]
Kevin Smith
So the President has discussed this idea.
- [177:20]
Mia Wong
Quite a few times publicly.
- [177:21]
Lex McMenamon
He's also discussed it privately.
- [177:23]
Kevin Smith
You're referring to the President's idea for American citizens to potentially be deported.
- [177:30]
Harley Quinn Smith
These would be heinous, violent criminals who have broken our nation's laws repeatedly, and.
- [177:36]
James Stout
These are violent repeat offenders in American streets.
- [177:39]
Kevin Smith
The President has said if it's legal, right.
- [177:42]
Harley Quinn Smith
If there is a legal pathway to do that.
- [177:44]
Kevin Smith
He's not sure.
- [177:44]
Israel Gutierrez
We are not sure if there is.
- [177:46]
Harley Quinn Smith
It's an idea that he has simply floated and has discussed very publicly, as.
- [177:50]
Kevin Smith
In the effort of transparency.
- [177:51]
Harley Quinn Smith
Now, one of the last things we're going to discuss is an update on DHS and ICE efforts to deport students across the country. Me and James did an episode last week which is still pretty relevant, but all of the numbers have increased dramatically, likely since that episode. As Of Tuesday night, April 8, 92 student visas have been revoked at California universities, 50 at UC campuses and 36 at California State University campuses, with six more at Stanford. Also, as of April 8, 50 student visas have been revoked at Arizona State University, with multiple students now in ICE detention. Lawyers for these students believe that upwards of a thousand visas have been revoked across the country. A map on InsideHire ED.com shows 419 confirmed instances of student visas, or in some cases green cards being revoked by Secretary of state mark Rubio across 34 states. And as of Wednesday, April 9, visas for 18 international students have been revoked. At the University of Utah, these students and recent graduates received letters from the Trump administration instructing them to quote, unquote, self deport immediately. At Utah State University, more than 30 students have been impacted, according to the university administration.
- [179:08]
Chaya Raichik
Yeah, I'm aware of at least one UCSD student who was detained at the border and immediately deported. I'm also aware that ucop, UC Office of the President, Right. Made a statement about the impact of service terminations across its campuses. But the UCSD Guardian, in a dub for student Journalism reported that UCSD convened an emergency meeting before this of faculty and it knew about the revocations or the sevis changes. Right, the revocation of their student status and it was reluctant to act because it hadn't received guidance from UCOP yet. So we're seeing this from a lot of university administrations. Right. They don't know how to respond. I did see that the University of Arizona was helping fund some of the legal fees of their students, which is more than many universities are doing. As of now, there seems to be no pattern of prior arrest for the people who have had their statuses changed. But in some cases it seems that in some university systems, all of the people who have lost their status are either Chinese, Indian or from majority Muslim countries.
- [180:13]
Mia Wong
One other thing, I want to close out this episode on. So we have an episode out about this already. But one of the things ICE has been doing has been targeting migrant farmworker labor organizers. They have, I mean, basically just kidnapped, like just straight up broke this guy's window in his car and dragged him out. A guy named Alfredo Juarez is known as Lelo. He is an organizer for Familias Unidos Pro Logisticia in Washington. And there is going to be a protest. This will be Saturday, the 12th. It'll be tomorrow. As you're listening to this on Friday at Portland City hall at 2pm Organizers are also asking that you call the Washington Attorney General to demand pressure be put on everyone to release him. Yeah, if you want to hear more about that, there is, I have an interview with an organizer who works with them. And yeah, it's real fucking bad. The, the, the, the scale of the repression has been increasing. It's not undefeatable. And this is a, you know, this is a, this is a tangible thing that you can do to try to stop them. But yeah, it requires movement now. And yeah, do this now before it gets worse.
- [181:29]
Harley Quinn Smith
To update another Topic of the episode me and James did last week we mentioned that DHS was seeking input for. For installing a new program to screen the social media activity of people applying for immigration benefits for what. What they label as anti Semitism.
- [181:46]
Chaya Raichik
Yeah.
- [181:46]
Harley Quinn Smith
And this policy is now in effect. This applies to, quote, unquote, aliens applying for lawful permanent resident status, foreign students and aliens affiliated with educational institutions, possibly also people applying for citizenship. To quote the DHS Assistant Secretary of Public Affairs Trisha McLaughlin, quote, There's no room in the United States for the rest of the world's terrorist sympathizers and we are under no obligation to admit them or let them stay here. Secretary Noem has made it clear that anyone who thinks they can come to America and hide behind the First Amendment to advocate for anti Semitic violence and terrorism, think again. You are not welcome here. Unquote. The webpage for this new policy states, under this guidance, USCIS will consider social media content that indicates an alien endorsing, espousing, promoting or supporting anti Semitic terrorism, anti Semitic terrorist organizations, or other anti Semitic activity as a negative factor in any discretionary analysis when adjudicating immigration benefit requests. So essentially this means that if you've posted anything that is in support of Palestine or criticizes the Israeli government, this will be now used against you if you are applying for a visa, if you are applying for a green card, if you're applying for citizenship and already live in this country as a permanent resident lawfully. So just a wider net of. Of social media surveillance. 404 media put out a good article on, on Wednesday about a Palantir system that ICE is using to look for immigrants and people in this country, which allows them to select for specific attributes with a pretty intense filtering system. So, yeah, this is ongoing and we will continue to report as such.
- [183:31]
Ella Yurman
Yeah. All right, everybody. Well, until next week, please don't go to an El Salvadoran prison camp if you can avoid it.
- [183:39]
Harley Quinn Smith
We reported the news there.
- [183:41]
Chaya Raichik
It is great.
- [183:44]
James Stout
We reported the news.
- [183:50]
Ella Yurman
Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of the universe.
- [183:56]
Mia Wong
It Could Happen. Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, Visit our website, coolzonemedia.com or check us.
- [184:04]
Harley Quinn Smith
Out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts, you.
- [184:09]
Israel Gutierrez
Can now find sources for.
- [184:10]
Mia Wong
It Could Happen here listed directly in episode descriptions.
- [184:13]
Israel Gutierrez
Thanks for listening.
- [184:15]
Garrison Day
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- [185:17]
Israel Gutierrez
Hosting a new podcast, Dub Dynasty, the.
- [185:19]
Robert Evans
Story of how the Golden State warriors.
- [185:21]
Israel Gutierrez
Have dominated the NBA for over a decade.
- [185:24]
Ella Yurman
The Golden State warriors won once again our NBA champions.
- [185:28]
Israel Gutierrez
Today, the warriors dynasty remains alive in large part because of a scrawny 6 foot 2 hooper who everyone seems to love for what Steph has done for the game.
- [185:37]
Mia Wong
He's certainly on that Mount Rushmore.
- [185:39]
Israel Gutierrez
Come revisit this magical warriors ride. Listen to Dub Dynasty on the iHeartRadio.
- [185:44]
James Stout
App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [185:50]
Harley Quinn Smith
From the producers who brought you Princess of South beach comes a new podcast, the Setup. The setup follows a lonely museum curator.
- [185:59]
James Stout
But when the perfect man walks into his life. Well, I guess I'm saying I like.
- [186:03]
Mia Wong
You, you like me.
- [186:05]
Kevin Smith
He actually is too good to be true.
- [186:07]
James Stout
This is a con. I'm conning you to get the Dalalo painting.
- [186:10]
Mia Wong
We could do this together.
- [186:14]
Harley Quinn Smith
Listen to the setup on the iHeartRadio.
- [186:16]
Kevin Smith
App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [186:20]
James Stout
Hey kids, it's me, Kevin Smith.
- [186:22]
Lex McMenamon
And it's me, Harley Quinn Smith.
- [186:23]
James Stout
That's my daughter, man. Who my wife has always said is just a beardless dless version of me. And that's the name of our podcast, Beardless Me.
- [186:30]
Mia Wong
I'm the old one, I'm the young one.
- [186:32]
James Stout
And every week we try to make each other laugh really hard. Sounds innocent, doesn't it? A lot of cussing, a lot of bad language. It's for adults only. Or listen to it with your kid. Could be a family show. We're not quite sure. We're still figuring it out.
- [186:43]
Lex McMenamon
It's a work in progress.
- [186:44]
James Stout
Listen to Beardless me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.