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Robert Evans (2:38)

Hey everybody, Robert Evans here. And I wanted to let you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode of the week that just happened is here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, there's going to be nothing new here for you, but you can make your own decisions. Welcome back to It Could Happen Here, a podcast about it happening here, which is normally focused on the United States because that's where we all live. However, we do like to cover the rest of the world and the ongoing struggle against the global far right movement. And today we're going to talk about a place that we don't cover often on this show, Ireland. And it's not because Ireland doesn't have a problem with the far right, because as our guest today is going to talk to us about, it most certainly does. And so I would like to welcome to the program a great guy, Padraig o' Rourke, author of Burn Them A History of Fascism and the Far Right in Ireland. The thank you so much for being on the show.

Sam Mullins (3:43)

No problem. Delighted to be here. Thanks very much, Robert.

Robert Evans (3:46)

Yeah, you know, there's this attitude and I think, as you noted in some notes you sent along, there's a degree to which it's true that Ireland has some resistance to the far right that has led to maybe it growing slower or taking a little longer to get off the ground to the same extent that it has in the UK or the US As a result of kind of the history of Irish Republicanism, that that's not comprehensively true across the island and that that's, you know, certainly has not stopped it from having some pretty significant problems which we're going to talk about today.

Sam Mullins (4:18)

Yeah, sadly, as long as fascism has existed since Mussolini's march on Rome and his political rise, we have had fascist groups here of one sort or another. We've had fascist groups in Ireland that were pro British in politics, fascist groups in Ireland that were pro Irish or Irish independence. You know, obviously we were neutral during World War II. We weren't occupied by Nazi Germany or anything like that. We did have one very big fascist group here in the 1930s, the blue shirts, who were extremely violent and got 68 members of parliament elected. They were the Main political opposition. They were kind of the largest non governing fascist organization in the world per capita. But as you said, Irish Republicanism has kind of inoculated us against a lot of the far right stuff we'd have seen in Britain and Germany and France in the 90s. Because, you know, while the conflict was going on in the north of Ireland, basically if you were an angry young man with very strong patriotic feelings who was given towards political violence, you would probably end up in the Provisional ira. And their politics were very left wing and internationalist. I mean, I remember going into their political wing Sinn Fein's bookshop in Dublin in the 1990s and it was all pictures of, you know, yes, our Arafat and it was pictures of Nelson Mandela and like the Zapatistas and you know, it was very much about Irish independence being an anti colonial struggle. Yeah, you do of course get like on the, the opposite side of that, on kind of the loyalist pro British side in the north. You did get as kind of reaction to that pro British paramilitaries, the Ulster Volunteer Force, the uda, Ulster Defense Associ, the Ulster Volunteer Force, the uvf, they would have linked up with neo Nazi groups like Combat 18 in England to get guns, to get finances, to get their hands on explosives and things which were easier to get in England than in the north of Ireland. But really we never had a party here, either in the north or in the south that was as successful as groups like the Front national in France or the British National Party in England. But sadly, in recent years, certainly in the last 10 years, the FAR right are kind of back. They're alive and kicking and they're, they're taking to the streets.

Robert Evans (6:36)

And to what do you, you credit that? I mean, it seems like there's a mix of things. First off, you suddenly do have people immigrating into Ireland from elsewhere in the world in significant numbers for, you know, the first time and quite a while. And then on, on the other hand, it sounds like there's also the kind of, as we see everywhere in the world, the conscious exporting of far right figures and ideas into the country.

Sam Mullins (6:59)

Yeah, well, Ireland's greatest export was always people. And you know, we huge Irish American communities in, you know, Chicago, New York, you know, all, all over. You have Irish people in Australia and Canada and England, all over the continent. So in the early, you know, 2010s, we started like there had always been a trickle of migration and people coming back and forward. Like we had some, you know, Vietnamese refugees here. We had, you know, Historically, we had Russian Jews coming here and, and so on, escaping pogroms in tsarist R. But really the first time that we had very large numbers of people coming was in the 2000 and tens. And it was things like the Mediterranean migrant crisis. It was people fleeing climate change in Africa, the Syrian civil war, Taliban in Afghanistan, and more recently of course, Putin's invasion of Ukraine. And the far right had always been these tiny little fringe parties and figures. There's a very active anti fascist group here called Anti Fascist Action Ireland. And anytime these groups tried to organize or take to the streets, they were challenged and they were run off. But really what brought them all together, Ireland's kind of attempt to unite the right, was the COVID 19 pandemic. Because we had one of the strictest COVID lockdowns in Europe. You're talking about. Originally you weren't allowed to travel more than two kilometers from your home. That's one and a quarter miles for you Americans. And basically you could go to the store, but other than that you couldn't, you know, you couldn't travel very far. And of course everyone was locked at home with their, with their Internet and started going down the rabbit hole. And what we saw was the anti vaxxer Covid conspiracy movement took to the streets in Ireland very quickly. And that brought together all of the disparate tiny far right and neo fascist factions, the closet neo Nazis, the anti vaxxers, the fundamentalist Catholics like Society of St. Pius X, the sovereign citizen types, you know, the people who were on about 5G conspiracies and chemtrails all got onto the streets, all got active on the Irish left and the anti fascist side, we kind of dropped the ball because we were following the healthcare advice. And the cops were quite happy to ignore the far right mobilizing on the street. But there were striking workers like Debenhams and Cleary's who'd been striking before COVID struck. And the cops were going up and moving these trade unionists on, saying, you're breaking the pandemic. So it wasn't policed evenly. And suddenly for the first time during the pandemic, we were starting to see groups of three, 400 far right in Dublin, which doesn't sound like much, but I mean, last weekend there was a march in Dublin city and they had probably around 5,000, maybe up to 10,000 people marching. And that's something we haven't seen here since the 1930s.

Robert Evans (9:45)

Yeah, and that's such a, I think, an important point, the degree to which, because this is a global issue. The degree to which everyone else attempting to abide by public safety measures during COVID 19, strengthen the far right, because they were out in the streets, this kind of organizing equivalent of getting to steal a march on the enemy. It makes sense to me that it was because in the US that was interrupted, at least by the George Floyd uprisings. But in Ireland, you know, it seems like there was a much more significant period of time where these folks were essentially acting and organizing unopposed. And the police were, when they chose to act at all, acting against folks on the opposite side of things who were organizing during COVID Yeah.

Sam Mullins (10:27)

And it was let kind of rumble on to the police. The cops didn't really start taking action on any of this stuff until I would say it was nearly November 2023, when they had this rally called, I think it was called to the Doll, or maybe slightly earlier than that, in September 2023. The doll is, is the Gael Accord for our Parliament. And basically the dregs of the COVID movement kind of came together again. You had all these tiny far right and fascist parties popping up. And the best thing about them is they all get into Fuhrer fights. They all start arguing with each other about who's going to be the leader. And they haven't united, but they took to the streets in the autumn, in the fall of 2023, and there was one really violent and disgusting riot outside the. Outside the Parliament where the far right were throwing bottles of urine at politicians trying to get in, were shouting racial abuse at anybody who wasn't white, you know, working in the building as a cleaner or a parliamentary assistant or anything. Any opposition politicians they could see, they were screaming at them in imitation of you guys. And January 6th, they had built a Mach noose and they were using it to hang effigies of politicians. And you also had police, cops being attacked for the first time by the far right. Really. There'd been one or two other incidents, but it's only when cops started getting attacked by them and politicians were being directly. Their safety was being threatened. Then the cops started to act, maybe in the last 18 months or so, but it was really closing the stable door about five years after the violent far right horse had already bolted.

Robert Evans (12:06)

Yeah, and, you know, so I'm kind of thinking here this is part of why you've started to see, you know, guys, like we started this conversation before we began recording, talking about Tucker Carlson coming over to talk to Conor McGregor, who's becoming an increasingly large part of this. And I Wonder if it's maybe these different kind of international folks in the international movement sort of sniffing that. You know, they're hoping the cancer has metastasized, so to speak. I mean, is that kind of what you, how you see it?

Sam Mullins (12:37)

Well, they definitely have an influence here. I mean, the politics, the talking points, the buzzwords that the far right use in Ireland have all been learned from the likes of Alec Jones have all been learned from watching, you know, crazy stuff on, on Twitter. And it's all American and British far right talking points that are being replayed here. Stuff about the Kalergi plan, stuff about the great replacement and, and so on. I mean, 100 years ago it was the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and now they're just spinning the same conspiracies, same talking points again. Like, for example, one of the things we had here was we had a party called the, the Irish People's Party. And some of our campaigners were really fundamentalist Latin mass set of akantist Catholics, and they were going down and protesting about drag queen story time at Irish libraries. We don't even have drag queen story time. Yeah, these guys have been so inspired by what was happening in America, they just went in and started taking books off the shelves, you know, and anything to do with any LGBT plus theme, even basic sex education guides for kids, stuff that's pretty mild and perfectly happy to give my own, my own kids, and I'm not the most woke guy. But they'd start ripping them up, they'd start taking them out of the library, filming themselves burning books at home. It was really crazy stuff. And at that stage, again, you did get antifascist organizing. But what you kind of get is figures like Conor McGregor being amplified by the likes of Elon Musk being amplified by, you know, Tucker Carlson coming over, interviewing him, or Donald Trump, of course, inviting him to the White House. I mean, the Prime Minister of Ireland, as we'd say in Gaelic, the Taoiseach Michal Martin. He was invited to the White House on 12 March. But the guy that Trump chose to actually have there on Patrick's Day itself was, of course, Conor McGregor. And MacGregor has links to, I wouldn't say far right figures, but certainly very populous figures. And MacGregor has kind of started. He's become God pilled. And he started rambling on about, you know, rosary beads and the power of Christ and all this kind of stuff. And he doesn't strike me as a particularly religious man. And now with the help of Tucker Carlson, he, you know, and Elon Musk and others, he says he's going to run for president. We have a presidential election coming up here in six months. Did you watch the interview, Robert?

Robert Evans (15:08)

No, no, I haven't yet. I caught some clips of it on social media.

Sam Mullins (15:12)

Yeah.

Robert Evans (15:12)

But I haven't gotten to sit through the whole thing.

Sam Mullins (15:15)

It's wild. It bears absolutely no resemblance. Like, what Conor puts across bears no resemblance to what's actually happening in Ireland. Like, he starts ranting about how the police are so corrupt. Element of. That's true. But he starts talking about how the, the traffic core, the, the road cops who give you, like, speeding tickets and stuff, they're the most violent and repressive and all this kind of stuff. And it just so happens that Conor McGregor has a string of speeding violations in his sports cars. And then Tucker Carlson chips in and says, oh, my God, you've got these armed cops and they're. They're repressing the Irish people, but they're letting these immigrants do whatever. My dad was a copier for 30 years. My dad was on the border in the 1970s with the IRA shooting at him and he didn't even get a gun. Our cops aren't armed.

Robert Evans (16:00)

Yeah.

Sam Mullins (16:01)

But Carson is just throwing this stuff out, being uneducated about it. And he says at the very end of the interview, McGregor says, oh, there's been a government kind of hit job on me. They're planning to bring me down. And what he's referring to is a civil trial now, not a criminal trial, the civil trial that Conor McGregor lost when he was brought to court for alleged rape and sexual assault. And the jury believed he's his accuser, a woman called a hairdresser called Nikita hand. And Conor McGregor was forced to pay damages of a quarter of a million euro to her, plus costs in the Irish High Court, which are about 1 1/2 million euro. Now, to you or me, that would be huge sum of money. To Conor McGregor, that's nothing. And I have to say, for legal reasons, he is appealing it. But the reality is that standing in the way of any political ambitions Conor McGregor has, and we just had here, in the last six or last year, we had a local election for, like, local councils, a general election, a European parliamentary election, any one of those, all he needed to do was put up 150 quid and he could have stood. He would be on the. On the ballot. In fact, under Irish electoral law, he could have stood in every single constituency in the country. And he didn't stand for election and now he's complaining that he's being debarred from the Irish presidential race and he's not, it's just, it's an exceptionally difficult ballot to get on. You can't just stump up the money in America and become a third party candidate or a writing candidate or whatever. That doesn't work here. You need the support of a large number of democratically elected politicians to get there. So I think McGregor's real aim is not to get into the presidency because really he can't. He's not even going to be on the ballot. But I think he wants to be Ireland's answer to Tommy Robinson. And I suppose if Tommy Robinson is the answer, what the hell was the question?

Robert Evans (17:54)

Yeah, well, we'll get into that more in a second. I do want to throw to ads here really quickly and then we'll continue to talk about Conor for a moment. We're back. So you say he, he wants to be the Irish answer to Tommy Robinson, which is such a, like aim higher man, like that. It's, it's odd to me. Like I, I, I had kind of, I had kind of been worried because we've had so many cases of guys in, in the United States who start out as these absolute jokes on the far right and then you just see them pick up more and more attention over time. And that was kind of my worry with Conor. But you're saying you're kind of concerned more that he's going to continue to be like an organizing presence on the far right rather than someone who has much of a chance of picking up actual political office.

Sam Mullins (18:51)

Yeah, I think with Conor it's all about his ego, which is probably what you'd expect from an MMA star. There's going to be an element of ego and showboating and kayfab and so on. I mean, it's interesting in his interview with Tucker Carlson, he was giving out that the Minister of education, you know, isn't a teacher. They're unqualified for the job. And the Irish government's Minister for Health isn't a doctor. And it's like, well, what qualifies you to be president, Connor? You're a former plumber turned MMA fighter, you know.

Robert Evans (19:20)

Yeah. Getting hit in the face.

James Stout (19:21)

Yeah.

Sam Mullins (19:21)

And we've, we've had ministers of education who were teachers and ministers of health who were doctors who happened to be totally awful. The reality is like we have a PR system. We've, you know, a very democratic and fair process and we have more than a two party system here. But I think like as emerged during the, during that civil rape trial which McGregor lost, you know, he had to admit to his cocaine use. During it, he has been sending out kind of fevered, I would imagine, cocaine fever trip tweets saying, as president of Ireland, I have the power to. And it's like, man, the election hasn't even happened yet. He's way ahead of himself. He's not going to get in the ballot. He knows that he wants to present it. And I mean the fact that he's even talking about getting in the ballot shows he doesn't understand the constitutional system here, which it's not like Britain, we have a written constitution. It's not that complex if you know the basics of the law. He's never going to get in the ballot, but he wants to present it that he's been denied the opportunity to stand. And unfortunately, what we have around the country is an increasingly violent anti immigrant street movement that whenever these, what we call emir I pass International protection applicant Services. These I pass or refugee centers, basically when these are picked as places of accommodation by the government, while these people's applications for refugee status are, they have to stay somewhere while these are being examined. You tend to get large protests in towns, villages, cities all over Ireland. Sometimes these turn quite violent. Sometimes. There have been more than 30 arson attacks on these centers. And I think what Conor McGregor ultimately wants is he wants to be able to tour the country attending these protests and having everyone queuing up to take selfies with him and telling him what a great hero he is. And I think, I think that's his ultimate aim.

Robert Evans (21:13)

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

Sam Mullins (21:15)

And he's obviously he's going to grift off the back of it. The guy has money already. But it was so funny, this multi, multimillionaire being interviewed by Tucker Carlson saying, we're going to start fundraising for my campaign. It's like. And you have more money than you could ever spend on political posters of flyers and adverts, you know, so it.

Robert Evans (21:32)

Almost sounds like this is like a retirement plan for him. Right. Like he's clearly past his prime in terms of the getting hit in the face thing for money. And now he's sort of moving on to like grifting off of these far right events and probably traveling just ahead of a series of riots. You know, like that's seems like what's in his future.

Sam Mullins (21:52)

Yeah. And I mean we've had some, you know, at the time of an outbreak of rioting in Dublin, anti immigrant violence which caused 20 million euros worth of damage and you know, trash city centre in November of 2023. Conor. And I'm not saying he directly caused it, but he was tweeting at the same time. Ireland is at war.

Robert Evans (22:11)

Yeah.

Sam Mullins (22:11)

And around the same time he was tweeting like any property that's been taken over by foreigners evaporated. I think really his plan is to kind of, if he can represent himself as a political martyr figure, he's hoping that it will overshadow his loss in the rape case. And he is of course appealing that and claiming he has new evidence and everything. But I think really that's what it's.

Robert Evans (22:36)

Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about the way far right violence has looked in Ireland, like when these protests have really kicked off. Because it seems like there's been this kind of fairly significant acceleration in the last three or four years in terms of particularly arson attacks. And one thing that I was kind of struck by in your notes was the degree to which like no one's been arrested for any of these yet.

Sam Mullins (23:00)

No. What happened? These started around 2018, so maybe just before COVID you had one or two of them. And my book went to print in December 2024. So I stopped counting in December and by then I had over 30 arson attacks and there hasn't been a single conviction for any of them. So it's when usually former hotels that have been closed down with years are that the government moves in or some local person moves in to renovate them and use them as one of these centers, they'll just go up and smoke in the middle of the night. And I mean we have already a very significant homeless problem here. I mean there's more than 10,000 people homeless in Dublin, both Irish and refugee. And I mean that probably sounds small to someone listening in a big American city. We thought we had a housing crisis when we had 2,000 people homeless and we got more than 10, almost 15,000 people homeless now. And some of these anti immigrant protesters have actually burnt down homeless accommodation designed for Irish homeless people in the mistaken belief that it was going to be used for refugees. Yeah. So that's their contribution to the housing prices. You've also seen stuff like attacks on politicians homes. Sometimes it's just pickets, sometimes it's graffiti. In the case of Martin Kenny, who's an opposition td, he'd be from Sinn Fein party. Most of your listeners would probably have heard of an Irish Republican, kind of left wing Irish Republican Party. Oh yes, there was a refugee center planned for. He lived in In Leitrim, and in fairness to him, he spoke out against it and he condemned what he called, quote, the far right ideology that has been peddled in this country about asylum seekers. A week later he was sleeping in his house with his wife and kids and his, his car in the driveway was petrol bombed, was firebombed and they came back a few months later and did it again and he was forced to move house. So arson attacks on politicians homes is something we haven't seen here since the original fascists were around in the 30s as well. And this violence again, like as I said, there hasn't been a single arrest. And I give you a perfect example. The title for the book Burned Them out is from an event that happened in February 2023. A guy stood up in front of a Garda police station here in Finglas, which would be a big suburb of Dublin. And there was a huge crowd of anti immigrant protesters around. One of them was waving a swastika flag and this guy stood up in front of them with a megaphone in front of their police station, said there is no point standing here outside a Garda station. The only way to deal with refugees is to burn them out, go where they are fucking staying and burn them fucking cunts out. That's a direct quote. And of course, had he been threatening that violence against the Guardian, had he been threatening that violence against a private business or a politician, I have no doubt he would have been arrested straight away. But this, you know, masked guy threatening violence and arson was just allowed to walk off. So there you go. They're certainly not on the ball. And we've even had during the COVID pandemic when there was a cop nearly killed that had a firework shot at him during one of these riots, the police commissioner in the south of Ireland, who's formerly a member of the Royal Ulster Constabulary, a very controversial pro British police force that used to be in the north, this guy's our new police commissioner down south. And he tried to blame Republicans and the IRA for the violence and left wing extremists for the violence that was happening. And it was so clear that, you know, Republicans, Irish Republicans have been on the streets opposing these people and their marches for years.

Robert Evans (26:34)

Yeah, let's talk about that a little bit like the, the actual organizing of the anti fascist movement in Ireland. How is it kind of responded to the, I mean, explosion and in some cases a literal explosion in far right violence on the street. Like, are you seeing it kind of reach like new heights or does it Kind of seem like it's unprepared for the moment that we're hitting because, like, I mean, in the United States, it's kind of hard to tell because things have changed so much since 2020. Right. Like a lot of the, the, the fascist violence that we're seeing is now explicitly from the state. And so there's, there's just not a lot of on the ground. There's not the same kind of on the ground response to it that you were seeing when it was groups like the Proud Boys. And I'm wondering kind of how things have changed since 2018 in that regard in Ireland.

Sam Mullins (27:24)

I suppose, like if you think back as far as 2015, Tommy Robinson, friend of the pod, attempted to organize his anti Islamic, his Islamophobic pegida movement, tried to launch a branch of it in Dublin. And they couldn't even get to their rallying point because there were 5,000 anti fascists on the street there against them. Irish Republicans, Irish language activists, Muslim community from Dublin were there, LGBT activists, and they couldn't even get to have their event. So up until Covid, certainly the anti fascists and groups like Anti Fascist Action Ireland were excellent at closing down small groups. You have a lot of people who are doing online research and exposing these people's sordid histories and their international connections. So that's one thing we're pretty good at. And what it turns out is that a lot of these guys, like one of the main proponents of the QAnon conspiracy theory here was a guy called Rowan Croft who just happened to be a former British army soldier. So that doesn't fly too well in Ireland from somebody standing up saying, I'm a great Irish patriot and I'm going to stop the foreigners. Like, well, hang on a minute. When you chose to fight in the military, you chose to serve the Queen of England. So you have big national groups like Anti Fascist Action, you have groups like Anti Imperialist Action Ireland. Thankfully, as these protests have sprung up around the country, these far right anti immigrant protests, they have always been countered. And I'm thinking of in Cork City when the library was being attacked and it would actually had to be closed down for a period. And it was the first time that the Cork library had closed since the British burnt it down during our revolution in the 1920s. And you know, you had a crowd of maybe 100 far right and people on the opposite side. The anti fascist scene kept building and building until by the end, and I was there for some of these protests, we had four or five hundred against them. And eventually we decided, right, we're going to stand and protect the library. And that happened in other places like Limerick and it happened in Dublin. And eventually the far right said, well, we can't even get near the library to have our protest anymore. And they dissipated. One thing that's very interesting here is the optics. And sometimes on the left and on the anti fascist side, we're not as good at the imagery and the using new technology and stuff. And one thing you'll always see is, you know, when anti fascists are mobilizing in Ireland, you know, they'll have often red flags, they'll have the Palestinian flag, they'll have Irish left wing republican flags like the plough and the stars. But often we don't carry our national flag, the tricolour, as much. And of course, the far right love fetishizing flags. And they have the green, white and orange Irish tricolour everywhere. Often, of course, these people are so ignorant, they fly it the wrong way around and it's the orange, white and green. So it's like vive le Cote d' Ivoire. It's the Ivory coast flag if you have it the wrong way. But it's interesting in some of the clashes, you'll have anti fascists with the Irish flag and fascists with the Irish flag. But I think just in terms of optics, it sometimes looks very bad when the far right are able to clip out a section of the opposing crowd and say, look, they have Palestinian flags, they have all other LGBT pride flags, but they're not proud to be Irish. They don't have Irish flags. And there could be some Irish flags clipped off at the side. So these people in the far right are very good at using the history of Irish politics and resistance to Britain and using the imagery of that struggle and co opting. It's. And I think it's very important that we on the, on the anti fascist side don't surrender any of that to them. And I mean, the Irish flag, what it stands for, the green bit is for Catholics who wanted independence. The orange bit is for Protestants who wanted to be linked with Britain. And the white was for peace and unity. So it's a flag that at its very essence, you know, talks about respecting a religious minority and people from a colonial or immigrant background who arrived here as strangers.

Robert Evans (31:14)

Yeah, yeah. Well, I want to, I want to continue this discussion and then close things out. But first, we've got one more ad break to do and we're back. So, yeah, I, I kind of wanted to End this by looking into a little like, what are you kind of looking for in the future? Like in the, in the kind of the, the next year or two in, in Ireland, like what are you, what are you expecting? What are you, what are you worri see? Like, yeah. What do you kind of see moving forward here?

Sam Mullins (31:49)

I think what's tending to happen now is genie is out of the bottle and far right message is spreading. And you had this big far right rally of, you know, 10,000, five to 10,000 people at its maximum that came down O' Connell street in Dublin, the main street in the capital city.

Robert Evans (32:07)

Yeah.

Sam Mullins (32:07)

It's not huge by political standards, but it is worrying. I think we're going to see that grow. And I think on the left sometimes, and particularly in the trade union movement, we have this idea that, oh, this is a flash in the pan and we'll organize a few big rallies and they'll go away. They won't. This is like the national front in Britain. You know, these people are going to be around haunting Irish politics for at least a decade and then they're never going to fully go away. They'll pop back up again. I think we're going to continue to see the regional protests and I think as well we have started seeing the Irish government, which is a coalition of two centre right parties, kind of tighten up their own language on immigration. We're starting to see an increasing number of deportations as well. The police really still aren't fully on the ball. They are of course being given new policing powers by the government to deal with violent protests. They're being issued with things like, you know, new non lethal technologies, you know, pepper spray and extra equipment and body cameras that they wouldn't have had before. But of course the classic thing is that these will always be used as much if not more so against the left and the anti fascist side than they will be against the racists. Yeah, thankfully these groups, you know, they're all infighting with each other. They have tried to do like electoral pacts and to plan out political strategies, but thankfully they're all so fixated on wanting to be the Fuhrer. That never really works. But what I was going to say a minute ago is that, that 10,000 people, if there were that many on the street, not everyone in that is far right. You know, some of the people are from working class communities that have been betrayed by the government and have been abandoned and they are starting, they've just fallen down the rabbit hole. And I can think of an incident I was in the gym a couple of months back and just sitting there and there were a few guys didn't know him, they were around chatting. Obviously we were in the gym. None of us are in the, in the sauna. None of us had many clothes on and none of these guys had like questionable far right tattoos or anything like that. But the conversation suddenly started about immigrants and how they were bringing crime and how they were bringing disease and all this kind of stuff. And I listened to it for a minute or two and I just stood up and said, lads, everything you are saying about immigrants in Ireland now is what was said about Irish people in America in the 19th century and in England in like the 70s and the 80s. So I think it's important that even in our workplaces on public transport, when we hear it, this kind of talk, we call it out if it's a friend of ours who's fallen down the rabbit hole into these conspiracies because that's how their message is spreading. Now often when you see people involved in some of this anti immigrant rioting, they have no history of involvement in, in far right groups. But it's. That message has spread beyond those groups thanks to our friends in the, in the nerd Reich. And I think if we have a work colleague or a brother or somebody who falls into that, that we don't abandon them. We don't immediately start calling them a Nazi and whatever that we tried to talk them around to it. But look, I suppose the thing is there is hope and everywhere these people have organized there have been anti fascists there to meet them. I think we need to get better at planning that in a national scale. Of course on the left you always get this factionalism and infighting. I'm not standing beside him. He's a trust. Well, I don't like his views on the north. Whatever. We need to kind of say, as long as we're fighting with each other, the fascists are winning. Thankfully, none of these people have ever gotten more than 2% in an election. They have nobody elected in our national parliament. They only have four or five, maybe six councillors elected in the entire of the southern part of the country. And that's out of 949 councillors. But we can't just laugh at them. We can't worry. This isn't a threat. Because when the Nazis stood for election the first time, I think they only got 2% of the vote as well. And look how that turned out.

Robert Evans (35:57)

Well, yeah, and as we've seen in the US like what starts as this tiny, tiny number of freaks and weirdos can wind up being a mass movement if it's not, you know, cauterized. Right. Like, that's. And that's. That's kind of the challenge in front of Irish antifascists right now is ensuring that that cauterization happens.

Sam Mullins (36:17)

Absolutely. And I mean, look, if you think of this, you know, Elon Musk has tipped McGregor for president and we're all laughing at it now. But, you know, it wouldn't be the first time that Elon Musk has tipped reality TV star with a questionable sexual and criminal history for high office. And they got there.

Robert Evans (36:34)

Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, thank you so much. Do you want to have anything you want to plug here at the end of the episode? I mean, your book, obviously.

Sam Mullins (36:41)

Yeah, well, obviously I'm not. I'm not on X, Twitter, anything like that. I don't have a substack or anything. So just the main thing I want to plug is, is my book Burned Them Out A History of Fascism and the Far Right in Ireland. It is published by Bloomsbury, head of Zeus. So it should be available in any. To order via any bookshop. Obviously, if you are going to support a bookshop, support a small independent one rather than Barnes and Noble. And if you are buying it online, obviously buy it from. Direct from the publishers. Bloomsbury. Don't buy it off Amazon if you can, because God knows Jeff Bezos has enough money.

Robert Evans (37:15)

Yeah, there's certainly plenty. Well, thank you so much. And yeah, that's. That's our episode. Everybody come back tomorrow when we'll have another one.

Mia Wong (37:42)

This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. May is mental health awareness Month, and Talkspace, the leading virtual therapy provider, is telling everyone, let's face it, in therapy by talking or texting with a supportive licensed therapist. At Talkspace, you can face whatever is holding you back, whether it's mental health symptoms, relationship drama, past trauma, bad habits, or another challenge that you need support to work through. It's easy to sign up. Just go to talkspace.com and you'll be paired with a provider, typically within 48 hours. And because you'll meet your therapist online, you don't have to take time off work or arrange childcare. You'll meet on your schedule. Plus, Talkspace is in network with most major insurers and most insured members have a $0 copay. Make your mental health a priority and start today. If you're not covered by insurance, get $80 off your first month with Talkspace. When you go to Talkspace, dot com and enter promo code SPACE80. That's S P A CE80. To match with a licensed therapist today, go to talkspace.com and enter promo code SPACE80.

Robert Evans (38:43)

On November 5, 2018 at 6:33am, a red Volkswagen Golf was found abandoned in a ditch out in Sleep Hole Valley. The driver's seat door was open. No traces of footsteps leaving the vehicle. No belongings were found except for a cassette tape Lodged in the player. On that tape were 10 vile. No, no no no no no no no no no. Grotesque.

Garrison Davis (39:16)

Oh my God.

James Stout (39:18)

Oh my God.

Robert Evans (39:20)

Horrific stories but to this stay have been kept restricted from the public. Until now. You feeling this too? A horror Anthology podcast. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts.

Mia Wong (39:39)

Or wherever you get your podcasts.

James Stout (39:42)

In 1978, Roger Karan's first book was published and he was unlike any first time authority Canada had ever seen.

Padraig O'Rourke (39:50)

Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted.

Robert Evans (39:53)

Has spent 24 of those years in.

Debbie Brown (39:56)

Jail, 12 years in solitary.

James Stout (39:57)

He went from an ex con to a literary darling almost overnight.

Sam Mullins (40:02)

He was instantly a celebrity, he was.

Mia Wong (40:06)

An adrenaline junkie and he was the.

Debbie Brown (40:08)

Star of the show.

Robert Evans (40:10)

Goboy is the gritty true story of.

James Stout (40:12)

How one man fought his way out of some of the darkest places imaginable. I had a knife go in my.

Garrison Davis (40:18)

Stomach, puncture my spleen, break my rib. I had my guts all in my.

James Stout (40:22)

Hands, only to find himself back where he started.

Debbie Brown (40:25)

Roger's saying is I've never hurt anybody but myself.

Padraig O'Rourke (40:28)

And I said, oh you're so wrong. You're so wrong that one.

James Stout (40:32)

Rod from Campside Media and iHeart Podcasts, listen to GoBoy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Robert Evans (40:46)

Giving yourself that agency to not just be one thing, right? I don't have to be the perception that is crafted or the version of me that everyone is kind of projecting onto me. Like I am having my human experience and it is faceted. It's so faceted and it's fascinating. May is mental health awareness month and Deeply well is a sanctuary for your healing.

Debbie Brown (41:07)

I'm Debbie Brown, healer well being expert.

Robert Evans (41:09)

And teacher and fellow seeker and each.

Debbie Brown (41:12)

Week we explore what it means to.

Robert Evans (41:14)

Become whole through soul expanding conversations and practices. Why focus on tiny joys? Well, because they remind us of what.

Mia Wong (41:22)

It means to be human.

Robert Evans (41:24)

They anchor us in the present moment and they create ripples of gratitude that nourish our spirit. Tiny joys are acts of self love.

Debbie Brown (41:32)

To hear this and more ways to.

Robert Evans (41:34)

Prioritize your peace Listen to deeply well from the Black Effect Podcast Network on.

Mia Wong (41:39)

The iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever.

Robert Evans (41:42)

You get your podcasts at. And t connecting changes everything.

Mia Wong (41:52)

Welcome to Could Happen Here, a podcast that I forgot to write an introduction for. I'm your host, Mia Wong, and we are. Well, okay, we're not taking a break from the horrors because this is also still a podcast about the horrors and what you can do about it. But, you know, I am transgender. One of the ways that we have been like, de personified via transgender is through a, you know, a massive attack on trans, like, trans women in sports. And this has led to, you know, like, the acceleration of, like, the broad scale attack on all of us being able to exist as people. And with me to talk about this is someone who has written a book that is about this and also kind of not about this in a lot of ways. And that is Victoria Ziller, who is a writer. Author. Writes about the Buffalo Bills for our friends over at Defector sometimes and is the author of a new book, One of the Boys, out today.

James Stout (42:44)

When you're listening to this, wow, crazy. Probably wild.

Mia Wong (42:48)

Yeah. It has synced up like this completely on purpose. We were 100% planning this from the beginning.

James Stout (42:53)

Hello. Thank you for having me.

Mia Wong (42:55)

Yeah, I'm excited to have you on. So you would think that the question that your book, one of the boys asks is, what if a trans girl played football? But the actual and more important, important question it asked is, what if a poster could write fiction? And the answer is that it fucking rips.

James Stout (43:09)

Thank you.

Mia Wong (43:11)

It's this. This book rules. I genuinely, I think these are. This is the best written group chats I've ever read in a book. It rips. It's so good.

James Stout (43:20)

I am very passionate about group chats. You know, I mean, like, posting is writing. Hello, audience. If you don't know me, my name's Victoria. I'm online. You may know my Twitter or Blue sky accounts at Dirtbag Queer. I'm like, largely posting about football when football is in season. I kind of just post about random these days. But yeah, I've allegedly written a book. The weird thing about writing a book is that I feel like I've just totally blacked out actually writing it. And I'm like, that's crazy. Who did that? Couldn't be me. But yeah, in terms of, like, how I would, like, very quickly pitch. One of the boys, High school senior named Grace comes back to her high school football team. She quit over the summer because she came out as trans because her teammates want to make a push for a state title. And it's like trans coming of age Friday night lights handshake meme. But also when I was like, big picture, thinking about what I wanted to do with this, I wanted to tell kind of a, like, traditional high school sports story, but through an outsider lens. Like, if you think about the average, like, high school football story, you think like, well, what we're going to do is we're going to win state, we're going to get the scholarship and we're going to get the girl. And I wanted to sort of like deconstruct those three things by making the protagonist trans and making the protagonist a kicker instead of like a linebacker or a quarterback or whatever. And that is who I am.

Robert Evans (44:49)

Yeah.

Mia Wong (44:49)

And this. This book rips. That sounds like a fun thing going on where it basically has, like, the football iceberg where, like, you can come into us knowing zero ball and you will get stuff of it. And you can come into this where I am knowing, like, a sumball and you will get some out of this. And then like, the unhinged people who have like 16 different PFF tabs, like, pinned their bookmarks will be like, holy shit, the world building.

James Stout (45:10)

Yeah. Yeah, that was. It is. It is hard writing fiction about sports if you're writing young adult fiction, you know, which is what one of the boys is. Don't be weird about that. If you're an adult, teenage girls are like, you don't have to hate the things they like. You can, like, calm down a little bit. But yeah, writing about football for. For an audience of, like, teenagers is, like, fascinating because you have to assume that the audience knows very little and you have to figure out how much you want to give them so that they get it without, like, overwhelming them. Which is like, really just not at all what I wanted to do. But also if you're a sicko like me, you can be like, ooh, I'm really into what this offense is doing. Or I am really this, like, onside kick play design. So I tried to, like, do. I tried to do a little bit of both. And also, again, this is a trans coming of age story. So, yeah, it's also dealing with, you know, the horrors. So, yep, ball plus horrors is what we're working with here.

Mia Wong (46:19)

Yeah. So I think. Okay, we're going to get more into the politics of this in a second. But first, I want to ask one ball question, since I have now. I have now introduced my audience to the fact that I talk about football by managing to get a rant about the Sean Watson on here for like 10 minutes. The Sean Watson trade. But okay, my one ball question for this was how happy did it make you when you figured out a way to write a football team that does not use the forward pass?

James Stout (46:42)

Oh, man, it's without, without spoiling what happens at the end of the Act 1 turn circumstances occur so that this high school football team has to move a player who is, who is not a quarterback to quarterback. At which point passing just goes away. And we are just running the ball, baby. We are, we, we are pounding the rock.

Mia Wong (47:09)

It's so sick.

James Stout (47:10)

It is kind of sort of like loosely. What I based this on was the year that the University of Kentucky football team, like all like every single quarterback got hurt and they were like, okay, Lynn Bowden, you are our best wide receiver. We're just going to put you at quarterback and you know, we're just going to see what happens. And that's like, that was the fun of writing fictional football is that I can make my fictional football team do whatever I want. And I don't want to ever see conservative trickery that is the forward pass. Get it out of here.

Mia Wong (47:46)

Yeah. This is one of the things I love about your writing is that you are very much just like an old school, like traditionalist football. Pound the roc. Like none of this, like none of, none of this RPO person. Which is, which is also, I don't know, it's, it's, it's just very funny that you have like, you have like the football personality of like an extremely cranky like 75 year old like coach from like the 70s.

James Stout (48:11)

Yep. And I'm a trans woman.

Robert Evans (48:13)

Yep.

Mia Wong (48:13)

It rules.

James Stout (48:14)

Which like, again, I tried not to do too much of it in this book. Like part of the reason that I made my main character a kicker, which we will also talk about other reasons later. But part of the reason is that kicking is this sort of like own separate siloed off thing. So I really only have to like get the audience to understand kicking and what happens when Grace is on the field. I don't have to get into like what a football team that like never passes the ball, like is doing on a technical level. We don't have to do all that. I give you just enough that if you are a sicko, you're like, yeah, baby, rules.

Mia Wong (48:51)

This is the sickest offense of all time.

James Stout (48:53)

But, but also, yeah, but also like, you know, trying to, trying to help the queer kiddos understand that like running the ball is the official football position of the working class, of the proletariat. You know.

Mia Wong (49:18)

Okay, we're going to get more into the class dynamics of football in a second. But the place I kind of want to start in terms of, like, you know, talking about the parts of us that aren't just ball is so in a lot of ways, this is a book about scriptlessness, which is something that, I think. I don't know, like, we've been seeing a sort of resurgence of trends, or not resurgence, but a kind of, like, surgence. Emergence.

James Stout (49:40)

Is that the emergence. There we go. There we go.

Mia Wong (49:43)

There we go. Yeah. Of trans literature. And I think this is a very interesting angle to take on it. And it's, you know, when I say scriptlessness, it's about the ways in which trans women in particular don't have, you know, sort of examples and paths to, like, follow. Right. There's not like, A. You're supposed to go from A to B to C. This is like, what you're doing with your life, and you have to just figure it out, because suddenly you're you, and you just. You just have to. You know, there's. There's no rails, there's no guides. You just have to do it. I think the Zapatista line about it is, is that the road is made by walking. Can you talk about how, like, having to just figure this shit out influenced the way that you write Grace and the way that you sort of write this book?

Garrison Davis (50:22)

Yeah.

James Stout (50:23)

So this is something that Grace struggles with a lot. I mean, like, specific to her. It's because she's a trans woman who's playing football. Something that, if an openly trans woman has ever openly played, like, American football, there is not a lot of documentation of that online.

Mia Wong (50:39)

So.

James Stout (50:41)

So, like, Grace, she is, like, walking a path that has, like, never existed before. But I think, like, more broadly and more like, thematically, there is that, like, Grace is also frequently. I call her stupid, and I don't think that she's stupid, but, comma. But Grace struggles a lot to, like, express herself, I would say. And, like, I wanted her to, like, challenge what a reader might expect from a trans girl in young adult fiction, specifically, where, like, I think she's, like, frequently kind of, like, grating, or at least I find her grading. She is not traditionally feminine. I don't think she's unfeminine, but she, like, struggles a lot with, like, feeling okay enough to, like, express that about herself.

Mia Wong (51:28)

Yeah.

James Stout (51:28)

And, like, I feel like a lot of stories about trans kids have this view of being a like, younger trans person. Of like. Well, it was always easy for me and I took to femininity like a fish in water. And like, this was like natural to me. I wanted to write a character for whom it is not, not necessarily natural for Grace to be this person. And I wanted her past and the way she is now to sort of like challenge a like CIS reader specifically. But also in terms of scriptlessness in a more like, macro way. There's not a lot of YA contemporary fiction about trans girl characters. Like in all. Yeah, there is now, thankfully a good amount of trans male representation in the genre. But there are a few authors who are out here writing trans femme contemporary, but like not a lot. So like figuring out like where I wanted to like slot in to this like, genre that is kind of like struggling to be born.

Robert Evans (52:37)

Yeah.

James Stout (52:38)

You know, not a lot of trans femme, like 17 year old protagonists who are like going to like parties and drinking beer and worrying about whether or not they want to go to college.

Debbie Brown (52:52)

Which is all.

James Stout (52:53)

Is all stuff I wanted to like, touch here.

Mia Wong (52:55)

Yeah. And I think there's a bunch of levels that this stuff sort of operates on and I think it's very like, I don't know, like a lot of being trans and obviously this, at least for me, I don't know, like, maybe, maybe this was different for other people. It's just like having no idea what the fuck you're doing and just, you know, waking up one day and realizing like, wait, what the do you mean I'm doing this? And it's like, you know, I can think about this, like doing this job. I was like, wait, what the fuck? I'm a trans podcaster. Like what, like how, Like I can't even do my makeup well, like, what the fuck are we doing here?

James Stout (53:33)

Yep.

Mia Wong (53:35)

I think that like another thing that I've talked about this, I talked about this a lot in the show is. But it's also just like.

Debbie Brown (53:41)

How kind.

Mia Wong (53:41)

Of like normal the trans girls who just like suddenly something blows up and they're like Internet famous or whatever the are that they're just like some kid until like, yeah, you know, there's just like an explosion and everyone is suddenly interested in every intimate detail of your life and is trying to deconstruct it in order to destroy you.

Debbie Brown (54:02)

Yeah.

James Stout (54:03)

Grace is again, I don't really want to like spoil act act three stuff here, but later on in the story, Grace achieves some amount of like Internet notoriety for what she's doing. And yeah, Grace is like an extremely Typical kid. She has like, typical kid problems, but then this like, microscope gets put on her and she's. She is sort of like forced to like, become this like, different thing that like, if she wants to be that thing someday, it's not now.

Mia Wong (54:37)

Yeah. Yeah.

James Stout (54:38)

I think in a lot of ways my book is about how we ask teenagers to like, do too much and be too much. But like, especially trans kids, when you transition at any age, you are building the plane of your personality while you are flying a baby.

Mia Wong (54:54)

Yep.

James Stout (54:55)

And like, that's so much pressure to put on anyone. But like, especially anyone who is a kid. It's just like, is a lot of pressure. And I wanted to, I wanted to like, juxtapose the parts of Grace's experience that like a, like CIS boy or girl could read and be like, yep. I also don't know where I want to go to college, but also like, sort of like show like. Well, because she is like this, she is facing this like, unreal level of scrutiny that is like not normal, deeply unnatural and like up and like unfair.

Mia Wong (55:33)

Yeah. Now speaking of unfair, we have to go to ads. When we come back. That's one of my better pivots. I'm proud of that one. When we come back, we're going to talk about masculinity. We are back. So One of the Boys is weirdly the second football involved book about a trans woman that I've read in the last year. And I think it's fascinating because in, in the like, pure archetypal sense from like anthrop, like structuralist anthropology, it is like a pure structural inversion of Alison Greaves how to Fly, because how to Fly is. This is also a good book, but how to Fly is about a girl getting force femmed to escape masculine violence by becoming a cheerleader. And one of the bo is about a trans woman going back into like, into a hyper masculine space to become a football player. It's like they're just literally perfect structural versions of each other. And so I wanted to ask you about how are you thinking about doing this thing?

Robert Evans (56:47)

Right.

Mia Wong (56:47)

Which is, which is going back into these hyper masculine spaces that a lot of people come out of pre transition. You know, when you were sort of writing this, because this is not a, a thing that people tend to write when they're writing about trans femmes.

James Stout (57:04)

Totally. And sort of the like, irregularity of Grace's path this way is like one of the reasons why I was like, drawn to like writing a, a, a sports story about like a, a trans girl playing football. Specifically is because, like, I probably have a. Like, more. I don't know if complicated is the word, but I have, like, a very, like, interesting relationship with masculinity. And as much as I'm, like, fascinated by it, like, I think it is, like, endlessly interesting to see the ways that, like, men construct the, like, various kinds of masculinity that they live in and the, like, various outcomes that men can end up finding via their weird, distinct masculinities. For instance, for me personally, I'm still in my, like, old high school, like, boys group chat like, that we, like, started, like, a decade ago. And, like, I have never once had a problem fitting in there. When they all found out I was trans was like, oh, cool, whatever. We're gonna keep talking about, like, the Knicks, you know, and, like, again, Grace's journey with masculinity is different from mine, but kind of like, her. I have, like, some amount of, like, difficulty in, like, very masculine sports spaces when I was a kid. But then, like, once you adapt and once you, like, learn how to, like, perform this thing, like, I never had a problem existing in these worlds. And, like, something that Grace is really annoyed by is that people are always like, I just can't believe that, like, you would be trans. And what is hidden in there is, like, you were kind of a dick. You were, like, kind of a douchebag.

Mia Wong (58:57)

Yeah. Yeah.

James Stout (58:59)

So, like, I very much wanted to write a trans protagonist who has a relationship with, like, her past self and with her male friends that was, like, a little more complicated where, like, she has a, like, very good, solid group of, like, male friends who are not, like, perfect, but are still, like, that's my friend. So, like, I think for my friends and for a lot of trans women's male friends, they're like, well, I was friends with you before, so, like, you're still, like, you know, you're still you. I'm still gonna be cool with you. So I guess that means that I have to think about, like, I have to, like, okay, now I have to, like, think about how, like, trans people are, like, treated by society more broadly. And it's, like, interesting seeing men in my life, like, suddenly become, like, cognizant of, like, trans issues.

Mia Wong (59:57)

Yeah.

James Stout (59:57)

And it's all, like, personal. It's all like, well, I know this person, and therefore, I'm going to show compassion to this person that I like. And then, you know, politics starting at the personal and sort of, like, growing out from there.

Mia Wong (60:12)

So I want to ask a bit. A bit more, just digging into sort of the masculinity aspect specifically. Because one of the things I think is, I don't know, there's a part of being a trans femme that isn't super well understood outside of it, which is sort of. A lot of trans women have a phase where you really try to be a man. Right. Where you get, like, really into, like, hyper masculinity in order to try to, like, try to make yourself do it. Like, I. I had gamer Mia phase, which was a fiasco. Not even game. I'm still sort of gay Rebia. But I had, like, you know, I. I had. I had like, like top 0.25% Hearthstone player. Like, Mia was a wreck, a disaster, was substantively a worse person. Yeah. And. And, you know, so, like. And like, that's the thing that has a lot of complicated social ripples where, like, this. This process of, like. Like doing this, you know, sometimes it's like your final. Sometimes it's just. It's just what you're doing to try to get by. It's like trying to force yourself to be a man and, like, do this masculinity in a way that's, like, really shit because you're trying to, like, reconcile it with yourself. Yes. So this is, like, a thing that a lot of, like, trans femmes experience.

James Stout (61:25)

Experience.

Mia Wong (61:26)

I think it's written interestingly in this book. I was. I was wondering. I don't know, like. Like, the way you talk about being in this. In. In, like, fitting into these spaces is. I was like, okay, well, I figured out how to, like, do the performance okay. And then it was sort of fine. So I'm wondering, like, this is almost, like, universally seen as, like. This is like, a form of structural violence that's been enacted on you that you sort of have to, like, do this. But there's also a kind of. I don't know, a kind of complicated dynamic of, like, these people are still, like, your friends and you like them. And I guess I want to know sort of how you've been thinking about that specific angle and this sort of process of fitting in and becoming. And also just the sort of unbecoming you have to do to become yourself.

James Stout (62:13)

Yeah. So my book has flashback sequences that are written in second person. This is mostly a book that's written in first person. But I tried to, like, really lean into this, like, phenomenon of, like, closeted trans women, like, butching up at, like, certain moments in their lives in order to, like, pass and cram down this like, feeling that is, like, really scary.

Garrison Davis (62:43)

At first.

Mia Wong (62:43)

Yeah.

James Stout (62:44)

So like, I want the second person, Grace, flashbacks to her, like, starting fights and being a, like, asshole to, to. To her girlfriend. I want them to feel like, jarring and I want them to feel like Grace is being a bastard in a lot of these flashbacks. But like, I also wanted to show like, how she gets there in terms of like various moments earlier in her life where she was sort of like shunted into this more like, masculine path in order to like, pass and like, not be bullied or like, other eyes. And like, it definitely is. It's tough. And I think that I. I think that I personally have a, like, complicated relationship with like. Yeah, like, I hated football when I played it.

Debbie Brown (63:38)

Yeah.

James Stout (63:39)

And I did it because, like, I like the sport, obviously because I'm a fan and because I wrote this book about it and because I write about football sometimes and I post about it a lot. But like, playing it made me miserable. But like, I also made friends with that team who I still talk to. So it's like, I definitely wanted to feel like, violent and imposed, but also like, it isn't something that can be like, erased. It's something that you have to deal with.

Robert Evans (64:06)

Yeah.

James Stout (64:06)

It's something that like, as you grow up and as you continue to self actualize, you have to like, decide what parts of that version of yourself are worth keeping and what parts aren't. And that's like something that I wanted to show, like, Grace struggle through kind of in real time. She's like very early in her transition and she doesn't know how she wants to present and she doesn't know how much of like her old life and the people in her whole life that still wanted associate with her. Or does existing on this football team drag her back towards something that she doesn't want to be anymore? It's all stuff that I wanted to play with and is not like, overtly political, but is like subtextually political, you know?

Mia Wong (64:56)

Yeah, well, it's political in the sense that like, you know that we were talking about sort of scriptlessness earlier. Right. And I think one of the, one of the sort of alienating factors about being trans is that like, especially if you're like, kind of alone and you're like, you know, like you're like the only trans femme that you're spending time with. Right. This is just true for like, a lot of things. Like a lot of how sort of oppression functions and a lot of how violence functions is by convincing you that this is the only. You're the only person who's ever gone through this, and there are always going to be unique aspects of it. But, like, you know, one of the ways that alienation is maintained is by convincing you that no one else can understand the thing that's happening to you, because no one else has ever done it. And it turns out, like, no, actually, this is something that all of us have gone through. And when you sort of start to realize this and the kind of solidarity that it could be built based on this collective well of experience we've all gone through and how it can be changed by actual actions of a bunch of people working together, it changes things. So I think it is in a lot of ways political in the sense that in order to have politics, you have to have sort of, like, collective assemblages of people who fucking understand each other and who understand that they're not alone and that they can do things.

James Stout (66:08)

Totally.

Mia Wong (66:08)

And this is part of how you get to that.

James Stout (66:10)

Yeah. We can talk a little bit more about the, like, very start of something that could be seen as a political awakening that Grace has in this book. But, like, yeah, part of the reason that she isn't perfect is because she doesn't know any other. Like, there are no other trans characters in this book. And that was very deliberate.

Mia Wong (66:32)

Yeah.

James Stout (66:33)

Grace is, like, on her own. She is, like, figuring this shit out as she goes. Yep. And I wanted it to feel rough and, like, ad hoc because, like, that's how it is for a lot of people.

Mia Wong (66:42)

That's how it was like, build the road by walking. Yeah.

Debbie Brown (66:45)

Yeah.

Mia Wong (66:46)

And I. I guess. I guess I want to kind of move into the more directly political realm. One of the things that's interesting about this book is that, like, Grace, and this is something that, like, my brain has been so melted by having been like, de politics kid since I was, like, 15, because I was like. Like, my high school was, like, interrupted in the middle of it by me trying to overthrow the Turkish government. And so, like, my brain is so melted. We'll get Erdogan one day. We already can't go there for our coverage of Kurdish guerrilla movements. Very good stuff. You'll find many, many such things, I think. But, like, one of the interesting parts about this is that Grace is, like, not political. Right. And most of the people in this aren't. And there's kind of a divide between the politics knowers who are, like, the. More, you know, who are like, okay, yeah, like, we are like the queer kids. We are like the activist kids. And then, like, the, you know, like, the ball Players and then. And Grace sort of fits more into the, like, not even more into, like, Grace isn't like a politics person. Grace is a, like, hey, like, transphobia is bad. We shouldn't do that. But also, like, just wants to fucking go kick a. Go kick a rock in between two posts. So. Yeah, can you talk about, like, how. How you sort of decided to make her just be like, kid who doesn't follow politics.

James Stout (68:02)

Yeah, so, like, that was like, not any kind of, like, statement about how, like, politics is bad, you know, that was like, Grace is 17 and most 17 year olds, if they have politics at all, have, like, completely incoherent politics.

Mia Wong (68:18)

Yeah, because mine was like, holy shit.

James Stout (68:21)

Yeah. So, like, Grace has the, like, barest outlines of, like, ideology, and those were, like, put on her by people in her life. We know that her dad is a union man, and from a small age she has internalized that unions are good. Does she know why? Probably not, but. Or also we know that her friend Tab, who is Bori, has been like, educating her on, like, Puerto Rican independence.

Mia Wong (68:49)

Yeah.

James Stout (68:50)

Which was like. Which was a. Like, that was a very funny line to write because. Because Grace is this, like, dumb as shit white kid from the suburbs. But so, like, in as much as she's like, piecing together the person she is bit by bit, she's also kind of like piecing what she thinks about the world together along with that. In terms of, like, most of the straight white players on the football team, like, do not have, like, basically don't have politics. There's a scene where one of my minor characters is like, yo, I just figured out that, like, transphobia is bad. Yeah, I loved. I. I fucking loved writing that scene. But, like, I imagine that up until recently, Grace was exactly like this. And just like, just like, yep, I'm a middle, lower middle class, white straight boy. Air quotes on all of that. She never had any kind of, like, thought about that. That does not reflect what was going on in my life when I was a teenager because I was a very annoying, like, me and a friend of mine, Siobhan, got in trouble for putting a Bernie Sanders 2016 sticker on her locker because that's the kind of shit we were doing in high school in 2015. So, like, I was like, very much had sort of like vacant, liberal, middle class kid politics. But like, Grace, Grace is. I imagine that, like, later in her life she kind of has more political thoughts in her head. But I also kind of imagine that her brain works. Like, I don't know if you've played Disco Elysium, but I kind of imagine. I kind of imagine Grace has a, like, thought cabinet, and it's like she has, like. She has, like, two slots in it. She just, like, cannot hold that many ideas in her brain at once. So she's. She is in all aspects of her life, trying her best and trying to get better. And. Yeah, I want, like, I feel like a lot of contemporary YA that comes out these days, a lot of the kids have, like, overly coherent politics. I was like, nah, nah. I wanted to write a kid who has, like, good intentions but has no.

Debbie Brown (71:26)

Idea what she's doing.

Mia Wong (71:27)

Yep. God, my brain's doing the Trump line in many cases. Have no idea what they're doing.

James Stout (71:33)

Yeah.

Debbie Brown (71:33)

Oh, Jesus Christ.

Mia Wong (71:34)

My brain's so broken. Okay, speaking of things being broken, the products and services that support this podcast, unrelated statements. We are back. Okay, so having now gotten, like, many far into this interview without directly being like, here's the football politics. Let's talk about the politics of football. Because one of the things I think is fascinating about, you know, the way that you're sort of talking about this and the way that Grace, like, like, runs into this and the way that this is just, like, a thing that happens in the U.S. which is that, like, giant portions of the entire U.S. economy and, like, like, structural elements of the U.S. like, education system from, like, the ground up and, like, all of these sort of contracting services and like, like massive portions of, like, how every single part of the education system from, like, fucking, like, middle school through college are all bent around this game.

James Stout (72:37)

Yep. And.

Mia Wong (72:38)

And. And I think one of the things that happens there is that, like, the. The kind of, like, default ambient politics in it is very conservative, and I think in ways that, you know, are very easy to understand, and that when people tend to talk about this, they immediately go like, well, yeah, so, like, you know, like, the left is talking about football. It's like you're talking about the militarism, which is like, yeah, I mean, they're fucking flying jets over games. Like, they're. We're not even in wars anymore in terms of, like, US Ground troops deployed. Like, why the fuck are their troops showing up on the fields? There's like, the cult of masculinity stuff. There's, you know, I mean, like, there's. There's been some engagement now with the racial politics of it with Kaepernick. People realize, like, holy shit, wait. There's been, like, stuff happening here for ages. And, you know, and you get sort of the Masculinity, politics. But there's, I think, a lot of stuff here that we don't talk about on the left in terms of, like, the class dynamics of this and the way that football, I mean, I mean, just like, functions in a lot of very, very weird ways in terms of, like, sucking together this weird pool of a bunch of like, non white working class kids and like, I don't know, see, if I knew ball, I could. I could pull an example off top of my head of like some. Some quarterback prospect who'd spent. His family had spent like $2 million on like, personal trainers for him.

James Stout (73:58)

Absolutely.

Mia Wong (73:59)

Yeah.

James Stout (74:00)

I grew up sort of like middle, Lower middle class and like, playing football specifically. And I grew up playing mostly like soccer and baseball, a little bit of basketball. But I sort of like, I sort of ended up playing football when I was like, a teenager because I was large and that's how that works.

Mia Wong (74:18)

Yep, yep.

James Stout (74:19)

And like, in terms of, like, connecting with people who weren't white and of my exact class status or higher, like, football's how it happened, man. Like, most of my, like, earliest friendships with black kids, with Hispanic kids, was like, all through football. And like, it is a, like, very interesting sort of like class and racial melting pot, at least at, like, I went to a, like, pretty big suburban middle and high school. But, like, lots of. Lots of very different kinds of people ended up at my school, and lots of very different kinds of people ended up playing football. And like, you're gonna get a more diverse slice of that student population on a football team than you will on the fucking yearbook committee or in, like, school band, class, government, whatever. All of that came very naturally to me in terms of writing this book where, like, I've ended up with a book that's like, quite diverse. But I didn't really do that on purpose. I just kind of like, who are the kinds of kids who end up playing football? And it's like, everyone. You have like, poor ish kids like Grace, and then you have like, rich ish kids like Ahmed or Dre in my book who, like, I very much wanted to, like, show that, like, maybe one of the reasons that Grace is going to end up having a more coherent politics is because, like, she has friends of different backgrounds that she might not if she had not ended up playing this. This like, fucked up, evil, violent game. To be clear. Yeah, I mean, I think any football fan who is honest with themselves and has politics that are not evil has a very complicated relationship to the game for a, like, variety of reasons. Because it, like, chews up people's brains and there's that. But there's also, like, implied conservative politics. There's also a big factor here, is that high school football, even at a public school like mine, the religion is all over it, baby. Like, all over it.

Mia Wong (76:34)

Yeah, that's a huge part of it.

James Stout (76:36)

Jason Kirk of the Shut Down Full Cast is working on a book about the, like, history of Christianity and college football called Church and State. I'm very excited for that book.

Mia Wong (76:50)

Hell, yeah. Yeah, that sounds awesome.

James Stout (76:51)

But it's this, like, really interesting political space because of how diverse it is and because of how, like, homogenous a lot of the, like, religion and politics of it are, I guess, if that makes sense.

Robert Evans (77:04)

Yeah.

Mia Wong (77:06)

And it's also weird because, like, you know, so, like, I don't know, I refuse to watch college football. Like, I draw. I draw the line there. Like, I'm not doing this. I'm not doing this. They can't make me watch, like, fucking Colorado State or whatever the fuck. But, like, one of the things that you get in the NFL too is it's like on the one hand, like, you have all of this really, really conservative shit. Right? Like every fucking everything is God. Like, every single time someone holds a thing in front of a player, there. There's like at least three lines of like, all of this is possible because of God. And like, someone's like. It's like the only place you see people regularly saying Christ is king where they're not also, like, holding an AR to like a non white person's head. You know, so there's all of this, like, really, really conservative religious shit. But then also there's like a union.

James Stout (77:57)

Yes.

Mia Wong (77:57)

That everyone's in. And it's like a large, like, I mean, it's not that powerful. And there's. There's weirdness there too, because you, You.

James Stout (78:05)

Yeah, you get to see all of.

Mia Wong (78:07)

The really interesting dynamics of unions that you don't really get outside of. Kind of like, I mean, like, I guess like, SAG kind of has this. But it's this union in this place where one, the owners have like, an unbelievable amount of control. Like just a hideous amount of power. And they can churn through people really quickly. They have, you know, these are some of the richest people in the world. And then also secondly, there's. There's this like, marketization force that's happening where, you know, you get to see in miniature the way that capitalism has like, moved to sort of deal with unions, deal with sort of the class movements. Of the 20th century, which is that like they're also trying to turn all of these kids, like into entrepreneurs.

James Stout (78:53)

I think in the NFL, I think it's more coherent because there is a players association, not a union. A players association.

Mia Wong (79:00)

Yeah. Although also, also shout out, shout out, shout outs to the PA for backing our, for backing a unionization attempt here. Thanks for that. I don't know if it mattered, but meant a lot to me.

James Stout (79:10)

Yeah. Also like sports players unions are fascinating because these are people who are part of a union who are like at least some of them millionaires. So it's, yep, a very interesting sort of like class dynamic happening there. But like college, like the college game right now is just charnel house. I mean like, it is better now that players are being paid like unambiguous good that players can profit off of their name, image and likeness. But again, it makes like I remember, like I'm not on Twitter much anymore, but like in the like early Elon days you started getting Twitter ads and these were 16 and 17 year old high school football players. The post is like huddle highlights and like a like quick recruiting profile of like, hey, class of 2027, defensive back, wide receiver out of Palo Alto. And just like blasting that onto like Twitter timelines everywhere. Just like, please God, somebody see my, like somebody see these fucking huddle highlights. The feudalism stage of high school and college ball has like ended and now we are in the no regulations, baby. Just like completely unfettered capitalism stage.

Mia Wong (80:35)

Can we, can we explain like just how like very briefly, people who do not know any football, like what name, image, likeness is and how this is different from like a system that would be normal, which is you pay the players.

James Stout (80:45)

Yeah. So for like 70 years, the, the precedent with college football in the United States of America is that all these players are amateurs and they cannot be compensated in any way. They cannot profit off of their name, image, likeness. So that means that they can't like sell autographs. The school isn't going to sell jerseys that have their name on them. You are meant to make exactly $0 from your time as a amateur college athlete. And this was the like ironclad System for like 70 years and then it kind of got like destroyed overnight.

Mia Wong (81:21)

Yeah.

James Stout (81:22)

When the NCAA finally legalizes players profiting off of their name, image and likeness. So that means that they could sign like endorsement deals. And when this was first made a thing in 2021, it mostly manifested in like decoldist. Crawford for the Nebraska football team is filming a ad for a local air conditioning company because his name is Decoldist. And it was sort of like, very, like, quaint and cute at first, but then nil collectives got going, which are these. I don't even know how to. How to, like, God, describe what an nil collective is. These are, like, investment groups that operate independently of universities, that pool resources and then pay players for, like, extremely scant public appearances so that they can say that they're just profiting off of name, image and likeness. But in reality, they exist as a way to pay college football players without paying them via schools. Now there is the house settlement happening right now. Which colleges will soon be able probably, maybe, God who knows, will soon be able to directly pay college athletes a certain amount of money. Lord knows where that's going. Like, this stuff is all changing at.

Mia Wong (82:43)

Like, lightning at, like.

James Stout (82:44)

Yeah, yeah. So like, we have just straight up gone from, like, nobody gets paid for anything to, like, we are in fucking, like, Gilded age robber baron shit. We're like, yeah, because none of this shit is regulated schools or. And I'll. Collectives will go back on agreements and everything's negotiated every year there. It's like, like, it's. It's a fucking mess.

Mia Wong (83:10)

Yeah.

James Stout (83:10)

In the college game right now. So, I mean, all that makes the, like, NFL having a kind of shitty union look a lot better.

Mia Wong (83:18)

Yeah, well, there's thinking about the kind of. Like, this is my way of kind of bringing it back to transgender. But, like, one of the things that I've been thinking about a lot in terms of, I mean, just like, what I do. Right. But also just like, the way that capitalism has been moving in the last few decades is it's increasingly about, you know, because, like, okay, so capitalism's fundamental basis has always been, like, you sell your labor. Right. But now it's been increasingly transforming into, like, you're selling, like, the image of yourself. You're selling your identity. You're selling, like, yeah, you know, you're selling your personality. You're selling as much of life. And this is. This is what name, image, likeness is, right? It's like, we're not going to pay you for, like, your labor, which is like, you playing football. We're going to pay you for, like, this nebulous image of yourself. So you get all these people who, like, are, you know, you're forced to turn all of yourself into an object for consumption. And, like, I think that's the thing with, like, fucking.

Debbie Brown (84:16)

I don't know.

Mia Wong (84:17)

That's what I'm doing on this show, right? To A large extent, like, I am like the Asian transgender. And like, yeah, obviously, like all of this is like, research, but it's also, you know, this is what like, brand and identity is. And this has had these, like, seismic impacts on the entire global economy. Like, I talked about this in episode on when I talked about Temu, but, like, Temu is literally the product of this happening with Chinese farmers where, like, Chinese farmers were doing this, like, farm social media thing and someone was like, holy shit, what if we, like, they become these things where they were selling food, but they were also just selling, like the identity brand of like, themselves as farmers. And TEMU was like, well, pdd, which is the Chinese company, was like, what if we just brought all of these things together in one spot so you could just do direct to, like, consumer sales through. And now that's like the entire fucking economy is just this morass of, like, selling every single part of yourself. And I don't know, like, I'm wondering how much of yourself did you have to do? You have to, like, leave in a book like this and how much of it can you, like, kind of like, keep away from the market?

James Stout (85:16)

Oh, boy, you're good. Yeah. Oh, gosh. Everything is. Everything is personal brands now. You know, there's a lot of pressure as an author to use all your social medias in a very particular way. You're supposed to, you're. You're supposed to make your cute little canva graphics and like, talk about your characters and engage with, like, prompt posts on Instagram and, you know, whatever social media du jour. And like, my personal experience is a little irregular because I do have some amount of, like, sports, Twitter, niche, micro celebrity from posting. So, like, I'm not out here making promotional TikToks for one of the boys. Yeah, that was like something that was very important to me was like, I'm not going to be doing that.

Mia Wong (86:25)

Thank God, that shit.

James Stout (86:29)

Yeah. And the way that authors have to promote themselves and turn themselves into brands is like a whole other can of worms that, like, sucks.

Robert Evans (86:37)

Yeah.

James Stout (86:37)

So, like, thankfully, I think I've managed to avoid the most alienating, like, forms of that. But I did have a review not too long ago, very confidently state that this book was loosely based on my life story, which was news to me. I was like, word. I didn't know that. So, like, I think especially if you write fiction as a person of any marginalized identity, if you're, if you're black, if you're gay, if you're trans, whatever, people are going to assume that you're writing, like, auto fiction. Because I think a lot of people react to women's fiction this way, because I think a lot of people subconsciously have a hard time believing that, like, women have interior lives and can, like, imagine things, you know? Like, I think a lot of people assume that authors are always writing about themselves and writing about the people in their lives. And I mean, I'm writing about experiences that I have had similar ones to, but, like, nah, dawg, that is not how this works.

Mia Wong (87:50)

Yeah, there's a really great essay about this by a friend of mine named Rosemary Ho, who's absolutely brilliant writer who wrote about the. She's writing about Zadie Smith. And one of the things that she talks about is the way that people just assume that Zadie's best politics are just didactically coming out of the mouth of a character. It's like, well, no, that's not how this shit works.

James Stout (88:17)

It's frustrating. And I think a lot of authors have their own experiences with this. So, Yeah, I mean, you have to turn yourself into some kind of brand. That's why I'm going on podcasts, you know, so that's all, you know, that's fun. But I'm trying not to, like, you know, completely give myself over to the fucking torment nexus.

Mia Wong (88:44)

Yeah. You know, there's like, I. I don't know. This is also just like. This is a way you can just completely lose your mind. I don't know if I've ever actually talked about this on this show. Weirdly, one of the people whose career trajectory is the most similar to mine is this Asian American writer named Wesley Yang, who was like, this guy who got brought in to write about, like, I think it was Columbine. It's like some mass shooting that was like a Korean kid did, and his friends were like, hey, you're Asian. Write about this. Oh, God. And he, you know, for a bit, he was like. He was like, duh. Like, he was like. He was like the guy who's like the big, like, Asian American. Like, this is like the literary thinker. He was, like, interviewing Aaron Schwartz. He was doing, like, profiles of a bunch of, like, interesting people. And then he just became this, like, incredibly boring, bog standard reactionary. And he became one of these. A very common kind of person who you experience on the right is, like, someone whose experience whose, like, understanding of race comes from, like, watching sports where they're like, there are black players in basketball and there's a bunch of them. And because of that, this means that like, actually black people are, like, overrepresented and, like, as a class, they're like, privileged or whatever the fuck because there's just like a bunch of black basketball players. And I don't know, I think it's like, there's like a really interesting intersection here of like, the way that people understand politics as just like, politics are just like the thing that I see on my screen when I'm watching football. Yeah. And how. How we have to sort of like, just deal with that shit and deal with the sort of micro identity formation that is real but also isn't like, a depiction of what the world is.

James Stout (90:22)

Yeah.

Mia Wong (90:32)

So one of the interesting things in this book is that, like, the right wing media, like, right wing football media kind of isn't in it that much really, which I think is fascinating. And I wonder part of how much of this is just, like, this was kind of a book that was originally being written before, like, Aaron Rodgers was going on Pat McAfee show in front of, like, half a million people every single day and, like, screaming about trans people.

James Stout (90:58)

So this book has excerpts of, like, articles and outside media and, like, social media, etc. Originally it had, like, a lot more. I had to cut a lot in order to make this book, like, legible as a book. This book is already, like, like, pushing the edges of what you can really communicate in YA in terms of like, I have a lot of characters, I have a lot of going on. So, like, part of it is just that, like, I had to, like, you know, trim, etc. But like, yeah, that makes sense. Originally it had a lot more of that stuff and there were, like, interstitial snippets from a fictional sort of like, football podcaster guy who is like, Pat McAfee and all of the, like, barstool former athlete podcasters. Yeah, yeah, in a blender. And he, like, he was this, like, really pathetic former, like, special team or linebacker who just, like, keeps reliving the glory days. Yeah. Eventually I just had to, like, refocus and, like.

Mia Wong (92:03)

Yeah, yeah.

James Stout (92:04)

Bring that conflict closer to home with, like, school administration's kind of shitty. And, like, there are plenty of dudes on the football team who also suck. So I kind of like left it in via some, like, shitty tweets that you see or you get a lot of it, like, indirectly, you can imagine what is happening on the fucking Pat McAfee Show.

Mia Wong (92:30)

Oh, my fucking God. Yeah.

James Stout (92:32)

But, like, also part of it is what you said that the weird timeline of publishing means that I started writing this book in February 2021. Wrote the majority in 2022 and edited it in 23 and 24. And like, kind of this, like, very organized anti trans reaction was not as prevalent in 2021 at all. Like, I kind of had to, like, track it as it started to like, really like, form up in real time. This is not the world that I thought I was gonna write my stupid little football book and, and like, have it emerge into. A lot of people are say that this book is very timely and I'm like, dog, this is a Biden administration through and through. Yeah.

Mia Wong (93:17)

So one final ball question on behalf of my beloved and a curse Seattle Seahawks. Okay, so the thing about Sam Darnold, who's now our quarterback, after they traded my beloved Geno Smith for a fucking third round pick. Okay, so like, is the thing that's going to happen this season, not just by week five. Abe Lucas goes down for the 12 millionth time, whatever child they dragged out of a kindergarten to try to block the deal. Hunter gets liquefied in 10 milliseconds and SAM Darnold just like starts seeing the ghosts of men who haven't been born yet.

Debbie Brown (93:45)

Like, isn't this exact, Is this just.

Mia Wong (93:47)

What'S going to fucking happen? Why did they build this team like this?

James Stout (93:51)

Can I attempt to give you a small amount of Seattle Seahawks optimism?

Mia Wong (93:58)

I thought they were going to win 11 games last season. They should have. So we lost to the fucking Giants.

James Stout (94:05)

So I, I, I really like some of what the Seahawks did. They drafted a lot of players that I really liked.

Mia Wong (94:14)

It's true.

James Stout (94:14)

They, they finally took a interior offensive line player in the first round. Congratulations.

Robert Evans (94:22)

Yay.

James Stout (94:24)

Gray's able, is a good player. He's also MAGA as shit, which is what you want on your offensive line. No, that's what you want on your offensive line.

Mia Wong (94:33)

It's true. But also like, God damn it.

James Stout (94:35)

So you got Gray Zable, you got Jalen Milro. Who. Jalen Milro isn't good at football right now, but a sports media friend named Derek Classen put it that he's, he's the kind of player you want to bet on and then be wrong about just, just because he's fun. Because he's a like, legit, actual, like, special athlete. Special with the ball in his hand. He's cool. I really like Jalen Milroe. But you also drafted later on, you took Tory Horden and Ricky White, who are two of my favorite sort of like small school wide receivers in the draft. You took Damian Martinez, who is A running back who I think could end up being a lot better than someone who's drafted in the seventh round would indicate. And also, you took a fullback. You took Robbie Oates. That's great. His name is Robbie Oates.

Mia Wong (95:29)

Great name. Great name. Old name, old name, all name team.

James Stout (95:33)

He is a. He's like the squarest football player I've ever seen. Love. Love Robbie Oates. However, the Sam Darnold situation is tough. It's tough. I have a hard time seeing it happen. Like, he would literally.

Mia Wong (95:56)

If you had put it behind last year's Seahawks offensive line, he literally would have died by about week eight. Like, he just, like, straight up would have died on the field. Oh, God.

James Stout (96:05)

Yeah. And like, it's a bit better this year because you have crazy. But you still have Abe Lucas. You know, you still have Abe Lucas.

Mia Wong (96:12)

We'll have Abe Lucas for three weeks and then we won't have Abe Lucas. And then.

Debbie Brown (96:17)

Yeah.

James Stout (96:18)

And also, like, Sam Darnold was in, like, the perfect spot for him, and now he's going to be throwing the ball to. I mean, you know, you got Cooper cup, you got, you know, for four weeks, you got jsn, but you also have Marquez Valdez scaling. Is he gonna. Is he gonna get load bearing snaps? Like, is that really. Is that really what you want?

Mia Wong (96:39)

My cope last year was that. Was that JSN Metcalf and Lockett was the most underrated receiver trio in the league.

James Stout (96:45)

Yep.

Mia Wong (96:46)

And this year it's like, all right, we get six games of Cooper cup and then we get fifth rounders.

James Stout (96:54)

Yeah, it's tough out here. Yeah. I don't expect Sandarnold to work here just like, straight up. Like, I, I have been a Sam Darnold truther for years, but it is the classic thing of like, I think Sam Darnold's better than most people think. And then a lot of people are like, $130 million Sam Darnold, and it's like, what? Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. I didn't think he was that good. I didn't think he was traded. Geno Smith. Good.

Robert Evans (97:27)

No.

Mia Wong (97:27)

Oh, God.

James Stout (97:29)

So that's unfortunate.

Mia Wong (97:30)

Yeah. So this.

Sam Mullins (97:31)

This.

Mia Wong (97:31)

This has been the football section of this. Of this podcast. Yeah. So, Victoria, do you have anything else that you want to say before we head out? And where should people buy your book from?

James Stout (97:42)

Not Amazon. That's like, really all I have to say about that.

Garrison Davis (97:45)

Yeah.

James Stout (97:46)

One of the boys. My name is Victoria Zeller. And you just buy that from bookshop Buy it from your local indie. You can buy it from Barnes and Noble because we don't hate them as much as we hate Amazon. But, like, I would say buy it from your local indie bookstore is, like, ideal for me. I make the same amount of money wherever you buy it, so it doesn't matter. But if you want a signed copy, you can also order it from my home bookstore, so there's that.

Mia Wong (98:14)

Oh, yeah.

James Stout (98:14)

But, yeah, my website is Victoria Monster and all my links are there.

Mia Wong (98:20)

Yeah. Okay. I really. I realized I had an actual final question that I wanted to ask that I forgot to do before this. The fucking. We started the outro, so I apologize. So. So the odds here are much, much higher than they are in most places that there's going to be some queer kids who fucking play ball to some extent, listening to it. And I wanted to. I'm throwing something from your book at you, which is.

James Stout (98:41)

I know.

Mia Wong (98:42)

What would you say to these? What would you say to the kiddos who are going through it?

James Stout (98:46)

This is so mean. Okay, okay, I'm gonna be real with you right now, guys. Do what's best for you. Yeah, fight if you have it in you to fight. But, like, you gotta be a kid first and foremost. And like, yeah, trans kids, queer kids deserve the chance to be kids. They deserve the chance to make mistakes and listen to music too loudly in. In their friend's shitty car. And they deserve to play sports if that's what they want to do. I think in a lot of ways, my book is about how we ask teenagers to be braver than they should be. And I think that's bullshit. So I'm not gonna put it on. You have as much fun as you can, like, ball if you can, but do what makes you happy. And what feels safe to you is, like, really all I've got. Like, yeah, just have fun while you're able to as a child is like, yeah. No.

Mia Wong (99:55)

And it's like, yeah. It's not. If you are like a little ass kid. A, I am so sorry for how much. I swear on the show. B, like, it is not up to you right now to save the world. That is the job of fucking everyone else who listens to this show.

James Stout (100:08)

Like, if you.

Mia Wong (100:09)

If you want there to be more queer athletes, if you. If you want trans kids to be able to be kids, that shit's on you.

James Stout (100:14)

Yeah.

Mia Wong (100:14)

All of the rest of you who listen to the show, if you are also, you know, like the fucking one bazillion trans people listen to the show. This is like a bit less on you than it is on fucking everyone else. But yeah, but the best time to have started organizing was like five years ago. The second best time is right now, and the best time after that is tomorrow. So go. Go fucking build a world where trans kids can be kids. And fallout.

James Stout (100:35)

Let kids like me hoop. Let them hoop. Let them hit dingers. Let them ball.

Mia Wong (100:43)

Hell yeah.

James Stout (100:44)

My people need rings. My, my people need titles. They need trophies. They need championship.

Mia Wong (101:07)

This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. May is mental health awareness month, and Talkspace, the leading virtual therapy provider, is telling everyone, let's face it in therapy by talking or texting with a supportive licensed therapist at Talkspace, you can face whatever is holding you back. Whether it's mental health symptoms, relationship drama, past trauma, bad habits, or another challenge that you need support to work through, it's easy to sign up. Just go to talkspace.com and you'll be paired with a provider, typically within 48 hours. And because you'll meet your therapist online, you don't have to take time off work or arrange childcare. You'll meet on your schedule. Plus, Talkspace is in network with most major insurers and most insured members have a $0 copay. Make your mental health a priority and start today. If you're not covered by insurance, get $80 off your first month with Talkspace when you go to talkspace.com and enter promo code SPACE80. That's S P A CE80 to match with a licensed therapist. Today, go to talkspace.com and Enter promo code SPACE80.

Robert Evans (102:08)

On November 5, 2018 at 6:33am, a red Volkswagen Golf was found abandoned in a ditch out in Sleep Hole Valley. The driver's seat door was open. No traces of footsteps leaving the vehicle. No belongings were found except for a cassette tape lodged in the player. On that tape were 10 vile. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Garrison Davis (102:39)

No.

Robert Evans (102:40)

Grotesque. Oh my God.

Mia Wong (102:44)

Oh my God.

Robert Evans (102:45)

Horrified. This day have been kept restricted from the public. Until now. You feeling this too? A horror anthology podcast.

Mia Wong (103:01)

Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

James Stout (103:07)

In 1978, Roger Karan's first book was published. And he was unlike any first time authority Canada had ever seen.

Padraig O'Rourke (103:16)

Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted.

Robert Evans (103:18)

Has spent 24 of those years in.

Debbie Brown (103:21)

Jail, 12 years in solitary.

James Stout (103:23)

He went from an ex con to a literary darling almost overnight.

Debbie Brown (103:27)

He was instantly a celebrity.

Mia Wong (103:30)

He was an adrenaline junkie and he was the star of the show.

James Stout (103:35)

Goboy is the gritty true story of how one man fought his way out of some of the darkest places imaginable. I had a knife go in my.

Garrison Davis (103:43)

Stomach, puncture my spleen, break my ribs. I had my guts all in my.

James Stout (103:47)

Hands, only to find himself back where he started.

Debbie Brown (103:50)

Roger's saying is, I've never hurt anybody but myself.

Padraig O'Rourke (103:53)

And I said, oh, you're so wrong. You're so wrong on that one.

James Stout (103:57)

Rod from Campside Media and iHeart Podcasts. Listen to GoBoy on the iHeartRadio app, Applebee Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Robert Evans (104:11)

Giving yourself that agency to not just be one thing, right? I don't have to be the perception that is crafted or the version of me that everyone is kind of projecting onto me. Like I am having my human experience and it is faceted. It's so faceted and it's fascinating. May is mental health awareness month and Deeply well is a sanctuary for your healing.

Debbie Brown (104:32)

I'm Debbie Brown, healer, well being active.

Mia Wong (104:34)

Expert teacher and fellow seeker.

Debbie Brown (104:36)

And each week we explore what it.

Robert Evans (104:39)

Means to become whole through soul expanding conversations and practices. Why focus on tiny Joys? Well, because they remind us of what.

Mia Wong (104:47)

It means to be human.

Robert Evans (104:49)

They anchor us in the present moment, and they create ripples of gratitude that nourish our spirit. Tiny joys are acts of self love. To hear this and more ways to prioritize your peace. Listen to Deeply well from the Black Effect podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts at. And t connecting changes everything.

Garrison Davis (105:19)

Hello and welcome to It Could Happen Here. Today we are talking about white genocide. And when I think of genocide, there is only one name that comes to mind, and it's Molly Conger. Molly, welcome. I just. I wanted you to be here as we talked about the genocide of the white race.

Padraig O'Rourke (105:40)

I mean, who better to talk about it than two pasty fellows like us?

Garrison Davis (105:45)

Yep. Yeah, I'm sure we're like soon for the chopping block here. Molly. What. What's happening?

Robert Evans (105:51)

Why. Why are we.

Garrison Davis (105:52)

Why are we. Well, I will explain a little bit of what's happening and then you can tell me how on earth we got here. The United States terminated its refugee admissions program in January of this year, right when Donald Trump became the president and signed a ton of executive orders. So since then, the United States has not admitted any refugees. In February, it also stopped. United States terminated its cooperative agreement with refugee resettlement agencies, which meant that even refugees who had arrived weren't getting the assistance that they previously got. However, on 12 May, the United States admitted 59 Africana refugees from South Africa. And concurrently, Donald Trump told the press that what's happening was a genocide of the white people. He said it wasn't because they're white. He said if there was black people, he would do the same thing. I mean, there are several genocides impacting black people right now, and they are not getting refugee admissions to the United States. Apparently these people are being genocided. So Molly, can you, can you explain what's going on here? How, how are the. What genocide happened?

Padraig O'Rourke (107:01)

Sure. I mean, the short answer to that question is it is not happening. It is not real. It is not a thing that is happening or in my opinion really could meaningfully happen under the conditions that they're talking about. So again, like you said, they have terminated all refugee resettlement programs. So people coming from active war zones, active, ongoing genocides, people fleeing political persecution all over the. They don't deserve our help. They don't need our help anymore. Right. But these people, these people from South Africa are uniquely experiencing the worst thing that can happen to a person, I guess, which is white genocide. So white genocide, I think is often sort of used interchangeably with Great replacement theory. So the white genocide conspiracy theory and the great replacement theory, I think they're, they're hand in hand, they're very similar. There's a lot of overlap and they're used interchangeably. But white genocide is much more specific and it's more recent iteration on the theme. It comes from a mid-90s book written in prison by a neo Nazi terrorist named David Lane. David Lane notably coined the 14 words. We, you know, you know, the 14 we don't need to say. He had a lot of anxiety that if we don't do something, white people will become extinct, will be pushed out of existence by immigrants who are outbreeding us. You know, there's this sort of concurrent belief that pornography, which is, you know, in their minds, something that is a Jewish tool of oppression of the white race. It is, you know, it's causing us to do interbreeding, it's diluting our bloodline. So, you know, all of these things together are going to push white people out of existence, which again, not happening. Not true. Not a real thing that can happen. But it's something they're very anxious about. But when you spend a lot of time talking about how white people are being pushed out of existence, you gotta be able to point to something. You have to point to a place where a white person has been Meaningfully harmed. And they can't really do that. So the talking point that they fall back on most often when you're talking about white genocide, you know, if you're really wringing your hands about this and you have to be able to point to something, they point to the South African farm murders. It is this idea that white farmers in South Africa are being targeted for murder en masse. That it's this massive ongoing campaign of violence, which again is not happening and is not true. There is a more violent crime in the country of South Africa than in other similarly positioned nations. They do have a little bit more violent crime than we do here, for instance. But if you break down the numbers and they have, they have conducted a multi year study of this, you know, hypothetical phenomenon.

Garrison Davis (109:42)

Yeah.

Padraig O'Rourke (109:43)

White farmers are not being targeted for murder. They're not being murdered in larger numbers than any other demographic. It's just not a thing that's happening.

Garrison Davis (109:50)

Yeah, I know. It's almost like a laughable claim or like, except that it's also terribly sad when like Israel is just kind of Babe Ruthing a genocide in Gaza now. They're not even trying to pretend anymore. They're like, no, we're going to kill everyone by starving them. That's what we would like to do. And obviously those people cannot enter the United States as refugees, but these folks from South Africa can. How did it go from a neo Nazi in prison to the brain of the President of the United States?

Padraig O'Rourke (110:20)

I mean, that idea sort of filtered into American right wing think space over the last, I guess, 30 years since Lane wrote that manifesto from prison, slowly and through multiple origin points. But I have argued repeatedly over the last several months that we can point to exactly the moment that Donald Trump heard about this. There is a specific moment in time in August of 2018 when Donald Trump first found out about the plight of the white South African. I have the date somewhere in my notes, but it was, it was one evening in August of 2018 when he was watching Tucker Carlson.

Garrison Davis (110:58)

Shocking.

Padraig O'Rourke (110:58)

He was watching an episode of Tucker's show back when it was still on tv and he had some policy analysts from the Heritage foundation on to talk about this, this terrible thing that's happening. And about 45 minutes after that segment aired, Donald Trump tweeted the word Africa for the first time.

James Stout (111:16)

Really?

Padraig O'Rourke (111:17)

He has tweeted thousands and thousands and thousands of times about a lot about Robert Pattinson's relationship with Kristen Stewart, you know, things about Diet Coke, things about vaccines. He's tweeted a lot of things but he tweeted about Africa for the first time 45 minutes after the segment on Tucker Carlson. And he had bought into this idea that these people are being uniquely persecuted.

Garrison Davis (111:37)

God. Yeah. Carlson has mainstreamed a lot of these, like, white nationalist talking points. But, yeah, this one. And you have a really good series on this on your show. Right? Like, if people want to. People want to learn more about the plight of the Africana. You can explain that over several hours.

Padraig O'Rourke (111:55)

Yes, I spent, spent three months sort of tracing this story in painstaking detail, if you're interested in checking that out over on Weird Little Guys.

Garrison Davis (112:05)

Yeah, and you should. It's great. It's great. Good podcast. I highly recommend. So, like, we've seen that this thing, like, gradually gained momentum, I guess, and then at some point, obviously, someone got into Trump's ear in the last month and he made an executive order. Right, he shared his executive order. I'm just going to read from it now. Quote, refugee resettlement and other humanitarian considerations. The Secretary of State and the Secretary of Homeland Security shall take appropriate steps consistent with law, to prioritize.

Debbie Brown (112:36)

Yeah, consistent with law.

Garrison Davis (112:38)

Yeah, we're going to, we're going to get to that. To prioritize humanitarian relief, including admission and resettlement, through the United States Refugee Admissions Program for Africanas in South Africa who are victims of unjust racial discrimination. Such plan shall be submitted to the President through the Assistant to the President and Homeland Security Advisor. So, like, he's asking them to, to develop a plan basically for resettling these white South Africans in the United States.

Padraig O'Rourke (113:06)

Right, right. So when he says that it's not about race now, and he's pushed on that now, and he says, oh, it's not about race. It's not because they're white. The word Africanors appears in the executive order. And that doesn't just mean south. That's not a demographic term for people from South Africa. It is a racial term for the descendants of Dutch settler colors. Those people are white.

Garrison Davis (113:26)

Yeah. No, like, by definition. Right. They are white South Africans. They are like, therefore, definitionally the group that benefited from the apartheid era.

Padraig O'Rourke (113:35)

Very much so.

Garrison Davis (113:36)

As if this wasn't clear enough, Christopher Landau appeared at a press conference meeting. These refugees wearing a orange, white and blue tie. It's quite a unique tie. I actually googled orange, white and blue tie. Could find one for people who are not familiar. That is the apartheid era flag of the Republic of South Africa.

Padraig O'Rourke (113:56)

That is a deep cut. The decision to use that particular color scheme when you're greeting these boar refugees is very Intentional and very odd.

Garrison Davis (114:08)

Yeah. It's got to be a choice, right. Like, no one has a striped orange, white and navy blue tie, like, lying around.

Padraig O'Rourke (114:16)

And the sort of dedication to reviving that as a symbol is not without precedent. So Dylan Roof, the Charleston church murderer, had on patches, he had the flag of Rhodesia. Obviously they love Rhodesia, but he had the apartheid era orange, white and blue South African flag. And that was strange and unique enough as a symbol that an American would dig up and identify with that. The South African press noted it. It at the time of the Charleston church shooting.

Robert Evans (114:45)

Yeah.

Garrison Davis (114:46)

It was not in the mainstream.

Padraig O'Rourke (114:47)

That is a troubling sartorial choice.

Garrison Davis (114:50)

Yeah. Yeah, it's. It is worrying. Like, there's. Yes, like you say, there's. There's a line from the. From the Africanus through Dylann Roof to this horrific ideology. Right. Do you know what. What probably doesn't have a direct client or part. We can't be sure of that, I guess, but hopefully, hopefully that these products and services do not have a direct through line from apartheid.

Padraig O'Rourke (115:11)

Well, hopefully it's not the Washington State Patrol again.

Garrison Davis (115:24)

All right, we're back. Hopefully that was something nice. I want to talk a little bit about the US Refugee admissions program, because I think people sometimes misunderstand the. The program, what it means, where it comes from, who it's for. So to begin with, like, I want to distinguish between asylum seekers and refugees because I think in, like, the popular lexicon, these two words are used interchangeably. A refugee is outside of the United States and makes an application through the US Refugee admissions program, and that application is processed and approved or rejected or delayed or, you know, left for years and years and years while they are outside the United States. An asylum seeker is someone who is either inside the United States or presenting at the border of the United States and requesting asylum. So they're different categories. Right. Generally, to be a refugee, one has to register with the United Nations High Commission on Refugees, and thus one has to have fled one's home country. It's somewhat notable that this flight came from Johannesburg. Right. Like, these people were in South Africa, but the.

Padraig O'Rourke (116:34)

Apparently DHS set up office space in Pretoria and they were conducting these interviews in Pretoria.

Garrison Davis (116:41)

Right. Which, again, is unusual. Right. So you have to normally go to a resettlement support center. Right. And I want to talk about the process of background checks in a minute because, surprise, surprise, it didn't happen here, at least not as far as I'm aware. Like, if it did, it's the most expedited version of this. Process that we've ever seen. So these refugees have been admitted as P1 refugees, and people talk about P1 like it's a visa category. It's not actually. It's a priority category. There are four priority categories for people getting refugee visas. P1 cases, the highest priority are normally referred by embassies, the United Nations High Commission on Refugees, or non governmental organizations. If people have heard of this at all, it's probably with reference to Afghan folks who worked with the United States who are not being admitted under the United States refugee admission program. Right now, some of them are stuck in third countries, even at airports if they don't have a visa for that third country. Right. Waiting to work out, like, what the US Is going to do this time after lying to them for decades and letting them down again.

Padraig O'Rourke (117:49)

And unlike these real estate agents from Johannesburg, they can't just go back home.

Garrison Davis (117:53)

Yeah, right. Like, they actually have fear of persecution if they do, which is not the case for you South African folks. P2 are people, like, there are special groups designated for humanitarian concern, like some Congolese people living in Rwanda in the past. Some Burmese groups living in Thailand have been P2. P3 are family reunification cases. So you can, you know, if one person has refugee status come to the United States, they can bring the rest of their family. And then P4 are people who have sponsors through something called the welcome Corps. Familiar with the welcome Corps, Molly?

Padraig O'Rourke (118:29)

I am not, no.

Garrison Davis (118:30)

It sounds like the coolest branch of the military. You know, like, you got the Marines and then the welcome Corps next door. The welcome Corps was set up in 2023 by the Biden administration to allow five U.S. citizens, I think a minimum of five to get together to sponsor someone for refugee admission for the United States and basically take responsibility for their housing and for, like, reorienting them in the US Community. Right. Getting their kids enrolled in school, helping them find a job, all that kind of stuff. It was a cool program. It lasted less than two years. That Donald Trump rolled that up in January of 2025. So we don't really have P4 cases anymore. So all admissions were halted in January. In February, the government, as I said, cut all cooperative agreements with resettlement agencies. So let's talk about what the normal process looks like for refugees. Generally, they require several years of background checks and interviews. For many, it's not possible in their countries. For most. Right. For instance, there is not a resettlement support center in Afghanistan, so people have to leave. That's how you see them in Pakistan. Right. What you're Seeing now actually is Afghan people who are in Pakistan have timed out on their like visas in Pakistan. So they're now facing like immigration enforcement. There's because they haven't been able to get resettled in the US before their Pakistan visa expires. They go through medical and biometric checks. There are at least two interviews. There are security checks. When they do their first interview, they have to give in things like their identifying documents, work history, declare all their family relationships, all that kind of stuff. Then they have an interview with U.S. citizenship and Immigration Services after that. Then if they are admitted, they take cultural orientation classes before traveling. That's when you learn how to be an American. Right. I don't know what it involves, but they have to take those before they come. And then the US Government works with the IOM for travel. Right. And that travel is funded through a zero interest loan to the refugee. So like in every other case, you pay for your flight, you have to pay it back starting six months from when you get to the United States. That has not been the case for our Africana refugee friends. Right. It appears that the United States government chartered a flight on their behalf. Once the refugees arrive, they are referred to a resettlement agency. Some of the names people might be familiar with are like HIAs, the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society, who have literally been resettling refugees since the refugee and asylum seeker category was created. Right. As a response to the Holocaust. Maybe IRC is another one people are.

Padraig O'Rourke (121:12)

Familiar with, which interestingly, HIAS was the target of ire, of, of a great replacement theory motivated mass shooter here in America.

Garrison Davis (121:20)

Yes.

Padraig O'Rourke (121:21)

Robert Bowers posted a lot about HIAs in the days and weeks before he carried out that mass shooting.

Garrison Davis (121:26)

Yeah. The Tree of Life Synagogue. People aren't familiar. Yeah. And that was at the time of the quote, unquote migrant caravan, fall of 2018, would it?

Padraig O'Rourke (121:36)

Yes, that would be that time period.

Garrison Davis (121:38)

Yeah. That was a pretty, pretty bleak time. I was in Tijuana a lot at that time with seeing the migrant caravan folks. Right. Interviewing folks trying to help. Yeah. Coming back to that was, was I remember thinking like, what a fucked up world. So those people didn't get refugee admissions.

Robert Evans (121:54)

Right.

Garrison Davis (121:54)

Those people were here seeking asylum. The system right now is suspended. Right. And as many as 12,000 people who have been approved are waiting for travel authorization come to the United States. So they're completely in limbo. Right.

Padraig O'Rourke (122:10)

You're in limbo and at great personal risk.

Garrison Davis (122:13)

Yeah, yeah, they're in. I mean, people spend 20 years in refugee camps waiting to be admitted to The United States. And, like, it's hard for me to describe. I tried to my daring Gap series. Right. How desperately sad refugee camps are as places. Right. And I think people think of refugee camps. It's like, oh, you go there for a few weeks, and you sleep under the big white tent.

Padraig O'Rourke (122:35)

No children are born and raised there.

Robert Evans (122:37)

Yeah.

Garrison Davis (122:37)

People live their whole lives in refugee camps. You know, they're the ones they. The Thai, Burmese border have been there since the 1940s, but they live their whole lives, often without even basic essential services. Right. I did see, for instance, HIAs had a little school in Lahas Blancas, which is one of these UN refugee camps in Panama. The reason they have a little school is because children spend so long there that they miss out on their education if they don't have a little school for them.

Padraig O'Rourke (123:03)

And so that's just, like, insult to injury in this whole process. Right. It's not only is he shutting off this avenue for refugee status for everyone else and giving it to these people who, you know, I think it's fair to say don't deserve it.

Garrison Davis (123:16)

Yeah.

Padraig O'Rourke (123:17)

But he's made this process so simple and so easy and so painless, and that not only are they not fleeing persecution, but they're getting this fast track, this easy pass.

Garrison Davis (123:25)

Yeah. And, like, we're paying for it. I mean, I remember recently some friends and I were helping someone who had been admitted to the US not as a refugee, actually, on a different visa category, but, like, they were really having a hard time navigating the basics and funding that. So, like, we were able to help them out.

Padraig O'Rourke (123:45)

I mean, obviously, international immigration is. Is a difficult process. It wouldn't be easy. I mean, you. And you've immigrated internationally.

Mia Wong (123:52)

Right.

Padraig O'Rourke (123:53)

It's not a simple process.

Mia Wong (123:54)

No.

Padraig O'Rourke (123:55)

But looking at the people who have taken Trump up on this offer of refugee resettlement, these appear to be people who could have simply immigrated had they chosen to.

Garrison Davis (124:05)

Yeah, it seems that way.

Padraig O'Rourke (124:06)

They could have just moved.

Garrison Davis (124:08)

Yeah, they could have. I mean, come here on, like, a B1 visa or, like, I mean, pathways to citizenship are relatively rare. If you just, like, say you want to move to the U.S. right. Like, you just want to become an American unless you have a bunch of money. So, like, these guys will have a pathway to citizenship. It's not quite clear how Trump said that they will have one. What does that mean? I know normally, if you're admitted as a refugee, you can file for permanent residency in a year, and then after a number of years, you can file to be a citizen.

Padraig O'Rourke (124:38)

I Just notice as we're talking. So, you know, I'm not familiar with how the process normally works. Right. That's. That's your wheelhouse. That's something you're very familiar with. So maybe this is normal. It just looks strange to me. So I've been on vacation the last week, so I'm just back today. So I just opened up the. The embassy's website because, you know, as I was writing this story and sort of tracking this as it developed, there wasn't good guidance from the consulate on what this process would look like. So I'm just looking at it again today and they have updated it as of yesterday. This is the US Embassy and consulate in South Africa. New update yesterday. There is a form you can fill out. Yep, James, it's a Google Doc. It's a. It is a Google form. The US Embassy website has a link to a Google form that you can fill out if you want to become great.

Garrison Davis (125:23)

I'm sure it's highly secure. Yeah. Oh, wow. Wow. It's funny, I was on that website today as well. That is. Oh, dear. That is sad. I mean. Yeah, I don't think a Google Doc can possibly be as secure as it would need to be to have the amount of information the government gets on you when you become a refugee is all the information. Right. Just to outline the criteria to be eligible for U.S. resettlement consideration, individuals must meet the following criteria. They must be of South African nationality and must be of Africana ethnicity or be a member of a racial minority in South Africa.

Padraig O'Rourke (126:02)

I thought it wasn't about race.

Garrison Davis (126:04)

Yeah, I. I thought it was.

Padraig O'Rourke (126:07)

I thought it wasn't about race, James.

Garrison Davis (126:08)

Yeah, right. It seems. And then they must be able to articulate a past experience of persecution or fear of future persecution. What they don't mention here is that, like, normally there are protected categories into which refugees and asylum seekers have to fit. Right. Those are race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion. I mean, I guess. I guess you could argue that, like, the Africanas are not per se, a race. Right. Like. Like there are. There could be. It's conceivable that one could be white, kind of South African nationality, but not be Afrikane.

Padraig O'Rourke (126:42)

Oh, very much so. Very much so. I mean, there's a. Africana is a very specific sort of genealogical lineage.

Garrison Davis (126:48)

Yeah. And like, which is political.

Padraig O'Rourke (126:51)

Which is why I think they have been careful here to say, or a member of a racial minority because they're saying, like, look, we're not going to do the genealogy we don't, we don't care if your great grandfather was Dutch. We just need you to be white. We just need you to be white.

Garrison Davis (127:02)

Yeah. When you arrive, you can do a 23andMe test and then they do your percentage and, you know, then they put you back on the plane.

Padraig O'Rourke (127:08)

No, they just got the Pantone color scale. They're just gonna hold up the peach colored paint chip.

James Stout (127:12)

Yeah.

Garrison Davis (127:14)

They get you at. What's it called? Fucking the paint shop there where you go in and they mix it for you. So yeah, they don't mention these, these protected categories here. The U.S. state Department has said has received 8,000 inquiries from people seeking information about the refugee program. That's a lot of people. That is a large number of people. The Episcopal Church here in the United States. Right.

Robert Evans (127:46)

Not.

Garrison Davis (127:47)

Not like a notably woke organization, I would say. Episcopal, my. I mean, they do. Episcopal Migration ministries do good work. You won't find me shit talking them. They do good things for people who need help. It has ended its partnership with the United States government. So I'm going to read a little bit here from Presiding Bishop Sean Rowe. First time for me quoting a bishop on the podcast. Since January, the previously bipartisan US Refugee admissions program in which we participate has essentially shut down. Virtually no new refugees have arrived. Hundreds of staff and resettlement agencies around the country have been laid off, and funding for resettling refugees who have already arrived has been uncertain. Then, just over two weeks ago, the federal government informed Episcopal Migration Ministries that under the terms of our federal grant, we are expected to resettle white Africanas from South Africa, whom the US Government has classified as refugees. In light of our church's steadfast commitment to racial justice and reconciliation and our historic ties with the Anglican Church of South Africa, we're not able to take this step. Accordingly, we have determined that by the end of the federal fiscal year, we will conclude our refugee resettlement grant agreements with the US Federal government. Skipping a bit then. It has been painful to watch one group of refugees selected in a highly unusual manner, receive preferential treatment over many others who have been waiting in refugee camps or dangerous conditions for years. I am saddened and ashamed that many of the refugees who are being denied entrance to the United States are brave people who worked alongside our military in Iraq and Afghanistan and now face danger at home because of their service to our country. They also grieve that victims of religious persecution, including Christians, have not been granted refuge in recent months.

Padraig O'Rourke (129:24)

Good for them, honestly.

Garrison Davis (129:25)

Yeah, like, because I think.

Padraig O'Rourke (129:26)

I think maybe people don't Think about this or don't realize that a lot of these programs like this is a federally grant funded federal program through a partnership with the Episcopal Church. So like, you know, in the early days of doge, you know, they were saying like, oh, we found all this wasteful spending, all this, you know, suspicious payments to these religious organizations, those are social programs. We have outsourced. We have outsourced all of these government functions to these church based social programs. You know, for better or worse. Say about that what you will, but that is in fact how many of these things function.

Garrison Davis (129:55)

Yeah, like when I think about like, you know, I've spent a decent amount of time in refugee camps. The majority of the services there are provided by faith based programs. Highest, there's Bethel World Ministries, I think it's called, it's Catholic Charities, Episcopalian Migration Ministries. There's Kalsa Aid, the Sikh group. Right. I don't think they receive any federal, maybe they're, I don't think they receive.

Padraig O'Rourke (130:18)

Federal funding, but I think for the Episcopal Church as a massive organization to come out and say, yeah, we won't dirty our hands with this as that's incredible.

Garrison Davis (130:27)

No, it's great. And, and like more organizations should. I think they're being resettled in Virginia for the most part.

Debbie Brown (130:34)

Good.

Padraig O'Rourke (130:35)

That's where I live, James.

Garrison Davis (130:36)

Oh, good.

James Stout (130:37)

Yeah, great.

Garrison Davis (130:38)

Well, you, you know, you could take one in, Molly. You could have a little Africana come live with you or like, which, like God.

Padraig O'Rourke (130:44)

So Charlottesville, where I live.

Garrison Davis (130:46)

Oh, you'll get some.

Padraig O'Rourke (130:46)

It's home to a large number of, of of Afghan refugee families. And it's like I know people who work with, with our new Afghan neighbors and like helping them get settled in our community and helping women get driver's license and get them sewing machines so they can sew their traditional garments at home and like it's a beautiful community effort to welcome these people in, into our town. But I just can't, I just can't imagine the worst people on earth coming here.

Garrison Davis (131:11)

Yeah. Well, you can help with sewing machine rent. You could help us sew up a little, little pretty, a pre rainbow nation South Africa flag for them. But yeah, it is like I've helped people arriving here on refugee visas and like it's actually a really, really affirming and wonderful thing to do in your community. And like now is a time when you can still do that. All the people who were resettled here before January, the funding that was supposed to help their kids enroll in school, that was supposed to help especially women Learn to drive. Right. That was supposed to help people orient themselves in the US Find education, find work. Right. As a person who moved to America, it is a very confusing place. You have like 75 different layers of government. None of them really want to help you. This has a lot of forms to fill in. The rent is insane. Right? Like, and then you add, people drive like maniacs.

Padraig O'Rourke (132:06)

So like, and we don't have health care here, James. I'm sure that was a culture shock for you, but like, when I was poking around in some of these Facebook groups for these, for these South Africans who are sort of interested in maybe seeking this opportunity, and they were talking about sort of the pros and cons and whether they would go and how the process was going to work. And the one fear that I saw come up over and over again is like, well, I heard the healthcare's pretty bad there.

James Stout (132:31)

That is.

Padraig O'Rourke (132:32)

Yeah, dude, it is.

Robert Evans (132:32)

Damn.

Garrison Davis (132:33)

Yeah, damn.

Padraig O'Rourke (132:34)

Don't come here.

Garrison Davis (132:35)

Yeah, yeah. In some states, right, there are state funded, like safety net programs. I don't know about Virginia.

Padraig O'Rourke (132:41)

Oh, and I'm sure, I'm sure as, as America's special and only refugees, they will be afforded access to, to all available programs.

Garrison Davis (132:49)

Yeah. Put them on tricare after we've kicked the trans folks off. That's how we're making up for the gap. Yeah, it's, it's pretty bleak. Honestly. I, I would really encourage folks like, if you are listening to this and thinking, oh, it sucks that those people have not been granted refugee status. Like, I'm thinking of, like, I met a woman from Zimbabwe when I was in Darien Gap, who had come with her daughter. Right. She had faced persecution at home in Zimbabwe, a country that is not Rhodesia anymore. We're keeping score.

Padraig O'Rourke (133:17)

A country that was never Rhodesia. Rhodesia never existed.

Garrison Davis (133:20)

Yeah, right. Yeah. She went to South Africa, right, To, to attempt to be safe and persecution followed her there. So then she took this journey all across the Americas carrying her kid through the, through the jungles and over the mountains and through the rivers and, and it's where I met them and we've stayed in touch. Right. She's in the United States now. She's working on her asylum process. And it is expensive and it is by no means secure. And this is like a woman who has faced, who fits multiple categories. Right. In the protected, they've protected categories here. Right. It's going to be very hard and very expensive for her and it really genuinely fucking breaks my heart to see someone who, like, would be such an asset to any community. Who was such a ray of light, even in some of the hardest places I've ever been, she might not get to stay here and these folks will. And that really makes me sad. But yeah, if you have a chance in your community almost. The way I sometimes find out about refugees arriving or being settled is like, on Next Door, unreleased. Next Door is mostly a site for aging racists. But like, sometimes people will be like, hey, there's an Afghan family here. And they don't. Like, one of the things in California is that you can rent a house and they don't have to give you a fridge. Yeah, a fridge is like a luxury. It's not, it's not for the pores. So like trying to help people find a fridge before Ramadan, right? Like I, I have a truck, I'm a bigger guy. I can lift a fridge into the back of my truck if someone has a fridge they don't want. So like, that's the thing I can do to help. And it makes me happy to do that. And I can carry a fridge upstairs. Just like, that's not something you can do. There are a million other things you can do, right? Including just like having people over for dinner, cooking food for them, offering to take them out on a walk and show them your neighborhood. Like, there are so many ways that you can welcome people. And like, while people aren't newly arriving, there are people who are still recently arrived who really could do with some help. The government isn't paying for it anymore. We can't stop the government paying for flights for Africanas. But like, you can do something, you can do something positive and will maybe make you feel better about the fact that, you know, your taxpayer dollars are bringing the, the poor, downtrodden Africanas from, from South Africa to neighborhoods near Mali.

Padraig O'Rourke (135:42)

It's just, it's just such an ugly intersection.

Debbie Brown (135:44)

Right?

Padraig O'Rourke (135:44)

This is not just like our addled brained president falling victim to a racist conspiracy theory that he saw in Tucker Carlson. Right? Like that. That's how the idea got into his mind. But I think this resurgence of his alleged interest in the plight of the white South African is this terrible intersection of, of personal grievance and financial interest, right? That, you know, it's no coincidence that the text of the executive order, it's not just about like, you know, whites are being persecuted, but there is a potshot on the side in the first section of the executive order that like, well, and South Africa has been very unfair to Israel, right? That, that South Africa being a leading voice in the international community on the genocide in Gaza is part of this, that they didn't. They need to be punished for their advocacy against the genocide. When their ambassador was expelled, it was not a coincidence that he is a Muslim South African who has been very vocal about the genocide in Gaza and that he appears in public in a kufiya that he's. When he was, when he returned to South Africa after being expelled from the United States, he was talking about Palestine when he got home. And that's not a coincidence. And it's also not a coincidence that Elon Musk is currently fighting to launch Starlink in South Africa.

Garrison Davis (137:00)

Yeah.

Padraig O'Rourke (137:00)

And so this is sort of a longer explanation, but just sort of in brief. Since apartheid ended in 1994, they have racial equality laws that if you have a national level company, something like Starlink, something you're going to provide a national level, a telecommunications contract that serves the whole country. There has to be some black ownership of the country. They're not saying, like there can be no white executives. They're not saying, you know, white people aren't allowed to do business, but there has to be some black ownership stake in the company.

Robert Evans (137:27)

Yeah.

Padraig O'Rourke (137:28)

And large corporations around the world manage this by establishing a local subsidiary that is owned locally by a majority of black shareholders.

Garrison Davis (137:37)

Yeah.

Padraig O'Rourke (137:38)

Microsoft does it like every big company does. It companies operate in South Africa.

James Stout (137:42)

Yeah.

Padraig O'Rourke (137:43)

International corporations operate in South Africa and they do it every day. And they do it easy easily. But Elon Musk refuses to do that. He refuses to have any black ownership stake in his company or a local subsidiary. So he's not allowed to have Starlink there.

Robert Evans (137:55)

Yeah.

Padraig O'Rourke (137:55)

And so for the last couple of months, he's been, you know, walking out of meetings, he's been, you know, yelling at the president of South Africa about how he's racist against white people. And so like, this is personal, it's financial, and it is a racist conspiracy theory. And now we're, we're all having to live it.

Garrison Davis (138:10)

Yeah. It's also not a coincidence. So like, Musk has started interacting with some of these like white farmer accounts on his racism app. Right. Like that. I think that one, I think it's maybe its screen name is just Boar or.

Padraig O'Rourke (138:22)

Oh yes. A South African news site recently unmasked that particular individual.

Garrison Davis (138:27)

Oh, cool.

Padraig O'Rourke (138:28)

Yeah, I haven't, I haven't read the article yet. Like I said, I've been on vacation. But they're, they're on the case.

Garrison Davis (138:32)

Yeah. Great, good.

Padraig O'Rourke (138:33)

The thing about these, you know, white identity, South African nationalist kinds of guys is apartheid wasn't that long ago? Yeah, 30 years ago. Right. So anybody 50 or older who's talking a lot about white identity in South Africa.

Robert Evans (138:47)

Africa.

Padraig O'Rourke (138:48)

I would just like to ask you, what were you doing in 1990? Yeah, just tell me who you were hanging out with in 1990 because I have questions.

Garrison Davis (138:54)

Yeah, like I remember the end of apartheid. Very like that's one of my earlier like political memories. I remember like Nelson Mandela coming out at the, the Rugby World cup in 1995 and like that being a big people. Like I guess maybe our listeners, a lot of our listeners are younger than me, but like South Africa was something of a pariah state under apartheid. Right. Like they couldn't. People wouldn't even play sports with them. Them, they didn't even go to the IOC Olympic Games. And the ioc, not an anti racist organization, an organization which famously sent the Olympic Games to Adolf Hitler's Germany. But yeah, they were a complete global pariah. And to have gone from that to like the US has to intervene in the plight the persecuted Africana within my lifetime, it's pretty fucking bleak to see.

Padraig O'Rourke (139:39)

A quick turnaround and an ugly one. But like I said, the average white South African who is very vocal about white rights may have a very close connection to a very recent act of terrorism, if you know what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, they're not just talk. It was very violent in the early 90s.

Garrison Davis (139:58)

Yes. Yeah, Molly's done some good stuff on the, on the, on the, the violence of white South Africans and I guess, yeah. What folks in the US who are inspired by them. Molly, do you have anything you want to plug? Otherwise, Umkuntu Wesi's way, I guess is what you want to plug, right?

Padraig O'Rourke (140:16)

Yeah, I'm keeping an eye on their treason case against Afro Forum. I think that's. I mean it's just political talk, but it's fun.

Mia Wong (140:22)

We'll see.

Padraig O'Rourke (140:23)

Apparently the investigation is ongoing. But now if you are interested in more about how this happened, I did an eight part series about political violence at the end of apartheid and its connections to American neo Nazis. You can check that out on Weird little guys. It's a good time. I think there's a really fun episode about a Dolph Lundgren movie from the late 80s that was secretly funded by South African military intelligence. Yeah, it's a good time. And we live in hell.

Mia Wong (141:01)

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Robert Evans (142:07)

On November 5, 2018 at 6:33am, a red Volkswagen Golf was found abandoned in a ditch out in Sleep Hole Valley. The driver's seat door was open. No traces of footsteps leaving the vehicle. No belongings were found except for a cassette tape. Lodged in the player on that tape were 10 vile no no no no no no no no no no. Grotesque. Oh my God.

Mia Wong (142:43)

Oh my God.

Robert Evans (142:45)

Horrific stories but to this day have been kept restricted from the public. Until now. You feeling this too? A Horror Anthology podcast.

Mia Wong (143:01)

Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

James Stout (143:07)

In 1978, Roger Karan's first book was published and he was unlike any first time authority Canada had ever seen.

Padraig O'Rourke (143:15)

Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted.

Robert Evans (143:18)

Has spent 24 of those years in.

Padraig O'Rourke (143:20)

Jail, 12 years in solitary.

James Stout (143:22)

He went from an ex con to a literary darling almost overnight.

Sam Mullins (143:27)

He was instantly a celebrity, he was.

Mia Wong (143:30)

An adrenaline junkie and he was the.

Debbie Brown (143:33)

Star of the show.

Robert Evans (143:35)

Goboy is the gritty true story of.

James Stout (143:37)

How one man fought his way out of some of the darkest places imaginable. I had a knife go in my.

Garrison Davis (143:42)

Stomach, puncture my spleen, break my ribs.

Debbie Brown (143:45)

I had my guts all in my.

James Stout (143:46)

Hands, only to find himself back where he started.

Mia Wong (143:49)

Roger's saying is, I've never hurt anybody but myself.

Padraig O'Rourke (143:52)

And I said, oh, you're so wrong. You're so wrong on that one.

James Stout (143:56)

Rod from Campside Media and iHeart Podcasts. Listen to GoBoy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Robert Evans (144:10)

Giving yourself that agency to not Just be one thing right. I don't have to be the perception that is crafted or the version of me that everyone is kind of projecting onto me. Like I am having my human experience and it is faceted. It's so faceted and it's fascinating. May is mental health awareness month and Deeply well is a sanctuary for your healing.

Debbie Brown (144:31)

I'm Debbie Brown, healer, well being, expert.

Robert Evans (144:34)

Teacher and fellow seeker.

Debbie Brown (144:36)

And each week we explore what it.

Robert Evans (144:38)

Means to become whole through soul expanding conversations and practices. Why focus on Tiny Joys? Well, because they remind us of what.

Mia Wong (144:47)

It means to be human.

Robert Evans (144:48)

They anchor us in the present moment.

James Stout (144:50)

And they create ripples of gratitude that nourish our spirit.

Robert Evans (144:55)

Tiny joys are acts of self love.

Debbie Brown (144:57)

To hear this and to more ways.

Robert Evans (144:59)

To prioritize your piece, listen to Deeply well from the Black Effect podcast Network.

Mia Wong (145:03)

On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or.

Robert Evans (145:06)

Wherever you get your podcasts at. And T connecting changes everything. Oh my God. It's. It. It could happen. Here it is. And it's talking about it happening here. You know, about what we're, you know, what's happening in a galaxy far, far away. These are the Andor episodes we're talking about. Episodes. Jesus, what is it? 7 through 9?

Debbie Brown (145:35)

7 through 9.

Robert Evans (145:36)

7 through 9 of Andor Season 2. When this is done, we'll be 3/4 of the way over with. I mean, one of the best seasons of television ever made. So, you know, savor it, folks. Enjoy it and enjoy these podcasts.

Debbie Brown (145:51)

Yeah.

Mia Wong (145:51)

Argh.

Robert Evans (145:53)

Argh. Eloquent, Garrison.

Debbie Brown (145:56)

Thank you. Thank you. Arg me hearties. Raise the Hondo Anaka flag and let's watch some andor. This is episode three of our Star wars andor Politics review podcast. The person grumbling in the intro is Robert Evans. I'm Garrison Davis. We are also joined by Mia Wong. Let's start with episode seven. I think this arc in general might be my favorite arc of the whole show. Frankly, they did some really fun stuff. Oh yeah, and seven's mostly set up. This is episode seven, titled Messenger. I'll do a quick overview and then we can discuss some of the setup to the Gorman massacre. So rebel militias are forming an army on the fourth moon of Yavin. Wilmin returns from the planet Gorman with a special mission for Cassian. Luthen wants ISB agent Dedra Miro assassinated to protect the Axis network. The empires fail to secure an alternative to the Gorman mineral Calkite. And ISP command tells Dedra that an Imperial fleet will be sent to Gorman in Two days. And to prepare for a declaration of martial domain.

Robert Evans (147:09)

Yeah, I want to note at the. At the start of this kind of what we see, because we're watching one year jumps between these. This is the first time where it's been made really clear. The rebellion has moved on from scattered insurgent groups to a functional army.

Debbie Brown (147:22)

Oh, yeah.

Robert Evans (147:23)

Like, when we're introduced to Yavin, there's a transport landing, A group of soldiers are getting off, and they're being told, like, okay, your ration cards are here. And, like, you need to report in here and here. This is where you're billeted. It's very, like, standard professional military stuff. So we are. We are now at the point where the rebellion that Andor has been portraying previously is not around anymore. The rebellion has moved on largely, and those old networks still exist to some extent, but that is not the heart of it anymore.

Debbie Brown (147:54)

Yeah, and that's a big part of what this episode is starting to set up now on Gorman. Imperial presence on the planet has already increased dramatically in the past year. A new Imperial headquarters to towers above the capital city of Palmo. Security forces are stationed throughout the city with checkpoints and a mandatory curfew. The past few weeks, there's been stories of insurgent attacks against the Empire. Most recently the bombing of a naval depot. Imperial News reports that, quote, unquote, inexplicable.

Robert Evans (148:23)

Gorman terrorists, their hate for Imperial norms.

Debbie Brown (148:28)

Are getting help from, quote, unquote, outside agitators.

Robert Evans (148:31)

Which is not untrue, actually, for once, but also not, like, the core of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and I think that that's part of the. Part of the point, Right? Like, that that's part of what Luthen's going for, is he wants to keep them sort of obsessed with this side of things, in part because Luthen knows that it's moved on. Right. Like, Luthen knows that the rebellion is in Yavin now. You know, he is. He's not entirely a sideshow, but he's no longer the heart of it. And, yeah, every resource they waste looking at his network is a time they're not spent looking at Yavin.

Debbie Brown (149:08)

Yeah, and Luthen's still trying. I mean, like, the outside agitators here is probably mostly like Luthen's guys, who've been trying to build up the insurgency on Gorman simply to make some sort of political crisis. And then, you know, also help the people who have already committed to resisting the Empire. Help them actually, like, do that beyond what the Gorman front's been like parading around and doing, you know, little, little protests in front of the memorial for the past few years. It. Luthen was like, if these guys want to do this seriously, let's. Let's see what happens when we do it seriously. And that's kind of what we've resulted to here. The Empire has sent a quote unquote crisis specialist and a riot team to assist Dedra in managing any civil unrest. Cyril Karn starts questioning what the Empire wants with Gorman and what he's really been doing these past two years.

Robert Evans (150:00)

Yeah.

Debbie Brown (150:00)

Dedra tells him to pack his things as they'll soon be leaving together for coruscant. Back on Yavin 4, Bix takes a skeptical Cassian to a force healer to help with a stubborn blaster burn. Though Cassian resists, the healer can sense that Cassian is somehow important. He has main character energy. Cassian is split between Luthen and the growing organized rebellion.

Robert Evans (150:27)

Yeah.

Debbie Brown (150:27)

But decides to take a rebel U wing starfighter to Gorman. And undercover as a journalist, Cassian checks into the hotel at Palmo Square and sets his sights on ISB agent Dedra. So, yeah, a lot of this episode is, is like showing how the rebels are actually like, growing an army before they've really put together the formal rebel alliance. Like, they're, they're, they're getting so much closer to that. But at this point, it's, it's like a whole bunch of little, like, militias that are operating under the same base and are starting to set up like, rules and guidelines and like, Cassian butts up against some, some of those rules a little bit here because he can't.

Robert Evans (151:06)

Go and come as he pleases anymore. Right. Like, it gets him in trouble with General Draven. Yeah.

Debbie Brown (151:12)

It's not just rebel cells that are operating independently now. They are trying out, working together. And that has some growing pains.

Robert Evans (151:18)

Yeah.

Mia Wong (151:18)

Well, and it's not just working together too. Like think it's, it's, it's the command structure. Structure is becoming increasingly centralized in a way that it hasn't been. Well, it's the, the, the previous to this has been like the centralizing thing has been like Luthen kind of being an asshole to everyone, but, like moving stuff between them. And now it's like.

Debbie Brown (151:35)

Or saw Gerrera, right. Where he operates as like a cult of personality type thing with his own militia.

Mia Wong (151:39)

Yeah, yeah. Right. Well, but, but I mean, I mean like, like between all of the different networks.

Robert Evans (151:43)

The central.

Debbie Brown (151:45)

Yeah.

Mia Wong (151:45)

And now. So it's like, no, we have this place where we're developing a chain of command and we're developing these sort of like totally. We're gonna become increasingly rigid like hierarchies in this whole thing.

Debbie Brown (151:54)

Luthen's becoming a somewhat controversial figure and is kind of getting pushed out of the actual organized rebellion. Cause he's a little bit difficult to work with.

Mia Wong (152:05)

Yeah. Cause he's an asshole.

James Stout (152:07)

Like, it's like.

Robert Evans (152:09)

Yeah, well, he's, he's, he's, he's doing what he has to do. I mean I'm Luthen's last defender. If he's only got one fan, it' and Luthen is doing, is handling this exactly how he like has to. There's no room to be nice and there's no room for anybody's feelings in this. But that, you know, what we do see is people choosing. Now I want to be involved in this kind of bigger and more structured thing where the way I am treated is less dependent upon the whims of this guy at the spoke, where I don't get to know anything. Where there is a command structure, where there is, there is a degree to which it's more like predictable how things will be day to day. Right. A lot of people do prefer that.

Mia Wong (152:52)

Yeah.

Robert Evans (152:53)

And also this, at this stage of the rebellion, if you're going to take on a military like this, you need a formalized force, you need more of a command structure. You need a chain of command and people need to know who is calling shots in what situations. Because you, you simply can't function effectively in a large scale in combat without.

Debbie Brown (153:14)

Yeah. We'll talk more about kind of Luthen's situation in episode nine.

James Stout (153:19)

Yeah.

Mia Wong (153:20)

The Luthen of it all.

Robert Evans (153:21)

Yeah.

Debbie Brown (153:21)

Because that kind of gets more into like what his current place is in the rebellion. But like really like the role that he occupied is, is frankly no longer needed. Like, like and he's even acknowledging this like they're, they're going beyond the sort of like you know, like small scale like intel network, arms deals, like all this type of like, like covert, you know, the Aldani raid. They're growing beyond what Lutheran really specialized in and, and now they're doing a full on military and Lutheran's always been operating kind of like a DIY like spy agency. And, and now they're, they're, they're doing a whole military and, and that kind of butts up against how Lutheran like wants to operate and like what he's like frankly just capable of doing. Like, he's, he understands the importance of Yavin. But he's also okay with not, not being there in person.

Robert Evans (154:08)

Well, I don't think he thinks he fits there. Right?

Debbie Brown (154:11)

Exactly. Yeah, totally.

Robert Evans (154:12)

Yeah. Like his whole thing has, is such a, an idiosyncratic organization that's, that's just based around him and Clea, you know, this, this young woman that he works with, like, there's no place for him in a military command structure. That's not his thing.

Debbie Brown (154:26)

The other thing this episode really focuses on is like, you know, news propaganda and like, the idea of like, like terrorism outside agitators and using those things as justifications for state crackdowns. The senator from Gorman talks with Mon Mothma about, about how he believes that like, the Empire is lying about what's happening on Gorman and these bombings must be like a false flag attack. So you get to see a whole bunch of different people's perspectives on like, validity of the actions that are happening on Gorman. Like, there's, there's questions over, like, who's doing this? Is the state just making these things up so that they have a justification to crack down on us? Are these things genuine? Are, are they, are they being done by, by people on Gorman who are like, aligned with the Resistance, but maybe are getting like, outside help? You have all, all those sorts of questions. And then the news media is like manufacturing consent for an imperial crackdown. Like what was discussed in like the very first episode.

Mia Wong (155:21)

Yeah, it's, it's very, it's very 70s Italy. Like, because there's these bombings happening because there's all this weird shit and because nobody knows exactly who's doing what, everyone is like, like kind of become conspiracy brained. And like half the conspiracies are true, but not the ones people think are the ones that are true. And it's, it's just like the information space just becomes so messy when you're dealing with such a combination of like, of like, of these attacks and of these like different kinds of above and below ground organizations where nobody knows exactly, no one's exactly talking to each other. And yeah, it just gets so messy so quickly.

Debbie Brown (155:53)

Even the Gorman front itself is like, debating this. Like they had this whole meeting where they discussed like, like tactics like the role of, the role of violence. And like, as these big arguments erupt, they start to reflect on how the Empire has actually like, set them up for infighting. And the more time they spend doing this, the less time they're actually doing anything helpful on Gorman or like doing anything that actually can like, secure their own, like, liberation or their own, like, you know, combat against this oppressive force.

Robert Evans (156:20)

There's a good part in that scene where they're debating it where the guy who gets. Who kind of stumbles upon them doing the robbery.

Debbie Brown (156:28)

Yeah.

Robert Evans (156:28)

In the last, like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Has a speech where he's basically like, look, man, everyone's like, whatever they're doing, whatever their attitude about the right way to resist, they're all Gormans to me. And so they're all on my side.

Garrison Davis (156:41)

Yeah.

Robert Evans (156:41)

Right. And I, I like the way that he, that he expressed that because it very much as we're going to talk about next episode, it comports with who that guy is as a. As a resistor. Right.

Debbie Brown (156:53)

There's like, national identity is a big concept in these episodes, but not in like a fascistic nationalist sense.

Robert Evans (157:00)

No. As in we're all in this. We're all going to hang together is what I think he's saying.

Debbie Brown (157:06)

Like, like national solidarity.

Robert Evans (157:07)

Yeah, yeah.

Mia Wong (157:08)

It's like 1820s kind of like.

Debbie Brown (157:11)

Or even like Ireland. Right. Like.

Mia Wong (157:13)

Yeah, yeah. And like, you know, I can give a speech here about where this is going and about how Sinn Feins, like charity gets immigrants and trans people, but it's also like, that's just like, not what's happening right now. This is like 18. 1820, not like 1920.

Debbie Brown (157:24)

The last thing I want to talk about in this arc before we go on break is this Force healer that Cassian reluctantly visits in the Yavin 4 mess hall. Yeah, this was a super interesting scene to me.

Robert Evans (157:37)

And this is the first time we have seen any mention of the Force.

Padraig O'Rourke (157:42)

Really?

Debbie Brown (157:42)

Yeah. This is like the big, like, spiritual moment in the series andor has kind of veered away from like the mystical side of Star wars in favor of the more like materialist politics.

Mia Wong (157:53)

The Star War, the way that they.

Debbie Brown (157:56)

Included this here I thought was really interesting and really well done. And the, the reason why I like it so much is that like, throughout the Rebel alliance, they always like, agree to each other and like, say goodbye by saying, may the Force be with you. Which is a little bit odd because the Rebel alliance isn't like a Jedi revivalist cult. They're not like a Force cult in the way that so many other groups that. And, you know, Star wars tmr and the, the fact that you have people who engage with the Force in this more like, regular manner, more similar to like, kind of like hippie woo, spiritualist stuff that, that props up in like, radical spaces, I find really interesting.

Robert Evans (158:35)

Yeah.

Debbie Brown (158:36)

And obviously in Star wars, that has more of Like, a legitimate backing because we all recognize the Force is real in Star Wars.

Mia Wong (158:41)

The Force is fake. It's a psyop. It's just the alien God thing in the black hole.

Robert Evans (158:47)

Force truth in part. What I love about Andor is how big it makes the universe seem. Because Cassian. Cassian isn't like, he doesn't have, like, the. You know, there's that line in A New Hope where basically Han's like. I don't know. Like, Han's clearly heard of the Jedi, but he's like, I don't need. Like, I don't. I don't give a shit about this.

Debbie Brown (159:07)

I don't need hokey religions or special weapons.

Robert Evans (159:09)

It's like somebody talking about. Yeah, like Wicca, right? Like, if you're just like, a dude who's a fucking drug dealer, you're like, I don't need to hear about that, man. I got fucking heroin to move. Like.

Mia Wong (159:21)

Yeah, it's very. It's very much like. It's very much like, faith healer coded. It's like, oh, God, no. I'm not going to see the faith healer. Come on.

James Stout (159:29)

Like, no.

Debbie Brown (159:29)

Yeah.

Mia Wong (159:30)

And.

Debbie Brown (159:30)

And he talks about how him and his. Like, his mom had, like, a bad experience with a horse. With a horse healer, like, 10 years ago. And you're like, this is. This is a whole, like, scam operation as well. Like, fake Force healers.

Robert Evans (159:42)

And beyond that. The thing that's unsaid is what we know about Cassian is he was raised on a planet completely cut off from the rest of the galaxy. His childhood was as a hunter gather in the deep jungle. And he was presumably, as all peoples in that situation always have, raised with a set of beliefs about the universe and spirituality that were completely shattered when his entire planet was annihilated by the Empire. Right.

Mia Wong (160:05)

Wasn't by the Republic.

Robert Evans (160:06)

Well, it was. It was. It was in that transition, the fuzzy.

Debbie Brown (160:09)

Period between the Republic and the Empire.

Robert Evans (160:11)

Yeah. Yes. But of course he doesn't believe in anything. Right. Like, he had some sort of set of beliefs. Beliefs. And the entire cosmology of his planet was annihilated. Like, why would he believe in anything?

Debbie Brown (160:25)

I just like what this does for, like, the alliance itself. And it shows that the Force is, like, a regular part of these people's lives. And, like, specifically the way the Force healer talks is more about, like, the Force as this. As this, like, operator of, like, fate and destiny. And it can sense that Cassian Andor is the main character in Rogue One, a Star wars story, and is important for the story of Star wars. And she can feel that this is important and so can Bix. And Andor is also freaked out by that like feeling. And I do like that version of the Force a lot. I think that's a much more interesting way to do it than just like, you know, Force cults in like a forever religious war with each other for thousands of years.

James Stout (161:03)

Yeah.

Mia Wong (161:04)

If you pay us an unbelievably large amount of money. Garrison and I will have our six hour argument. We will have every time about the.

Debbie Brown (161:09)

Force in Star wars. We will debate Force.

Mia Wong (161:12)

I do also like that it's not, not a hundred percent clear that this person is even Force sensitive.

Debbie Brown (161:18)

She can like feel through the Force, but like everyone can with some degree of training.

Mia Wong (161:22)

Yeah, but it's, but it's. Well, but it's, it's also like not clear that it's like, like she's just a girl.

Debbie Brown (161:27)

She's.

Mia Wong (161:28)

Yeah, yeah, but like it's not a hundred.

Robert Evans (161:30)

His back seems to feel better.

Debbie Brown (161:32)

Yeah, no, yeah, totally.

Mia Wong (161:33)

Yeah, but, but, but, but also like that's the thing. Like it's, it's not, it's not like a, a thing like, okay, this is like a Jedi, right? They're using the Force and you could tell using the Force. This is a lot more kind of like nebulous. And it's not 100 clear if it's happening or if it's. Everyone is like think just thinks that it's happening or like what's, you know, it's, it's very.

Robert Evans (161:53)

No, yeah, that's why I like it.

Debbie Brown (161:55)

Like it's not a Jedi. It's just.

Mia Wong (161:57)

Yeah.

Debbie Brown (161:58)

It's just someone and everyone in this universe can have a connection with the Force because that's how this universe works. And some people don't want to or think it's fake and other people get really into it. Some people get way too into it and then they, and then they do genocides in the name of, of the, of their religious order. But for a lot of people like this who aren't like a Jedi or aren't like a Sith or you know, a, whatever, a guardian of the wills.

Robert Evans (162:18)

Oh God.

Debbie Brown (162:19)

It's just, it's just a thing you can like connect with and you can like feel your way through like fate and destiny.

Robert Evans (162:25)

Well, and I, I really like that they must have. There must have been a discussion. Should we have her say she used to be like a Padawan, right, who somehow escaped order 66. That must have been.

Debbie Brown (162:36)

Thank God she's Not.

Robert Evans (162:37)

Thank God. They just did. We don't know what. She don't need to tell because no one in the situation would give a shit. Right? Cassian's not going to be like. So, yeah, tell me about, like your bat. He doesn't give. He doesn't give a fuck. There's so much else going on in his head at that moment.

Debbie Brown (162:51)

It's so much better that she's just a random person.

Robert Evans (162:53)

And we never know. We never know.

Debbie Brown (162:55)

All right, let's go on a break and come back to talk about the Gorman massacre. Yay. Okay, we are back. Andor Season 2 Episode 8 who are you?

Robert Evans (163:15)

Yeah, I just. I will talk a lot about the name of this episode.

Debbie Brown (163:20)

Oh, yeah, baby.

Robert Evans (163:21)

Because I. I love it. Because it. It's. It's just some of the best writing that this show or any show has ever had.

Debbie Brown (163:27)

Yeah.

Robert Evans (163:28)

Yeah. Please go ahead and give us the. Over there.

Mia Wong (163:31)

Let's.

Debbie Brown (163:31)

Let's do a quick rundown.

Robert Evans (163:32)

Yeah.

Sam Mullins (163:32)

Yeah.

Robert Evans (163:32)

Yeah, yeah.

Debbie Brown (163:33)

As mining equipment lands across, Gorman, troops barricade the Imperial headquarters in Palmo Square. As they prepare for a mass protest, the Gorman front prepares to retake the town square, distributing weapons and rallying just regular Gorman citizens to march on the town center. The old leader of the front realizes too late that this protest is probably an Imperial trip trap and is powerless to stop this unfolding spectacle. He encounters Cyril Karn on his way to the Imperial HQ and confronts Cyril about misleading the Gorman resistance and why the Empire is mining on Gorman.

Robert Evans (164:12)

Oh, and this scene is the guy who plays riot. There's so many great monologues in this. The dude who plays Rylands, who is the old rich guy who's kind of the. The organizing center of the Gorman Front.

Debbie Brown (164:23)

The original one, yeah, has a beautiful.

Robert Evans (164:26)

Speech here where he's just. How can you say these things?

Debbie Brown (164:29)

What kind of being are you?

Robert Evans (164:30)

What kind of being are you?

Debbie Brown (164:34)

Yeah, it's. It's excellent.

Robert Evans (164:37)

It's perfect. It's devastating. Yeah.

Debbie Brown (164:40)

Cyril breaks free and makes his way through the chanting crowd that's filled in a square.

Robert Evans (164:45)

Yeah.

Debbie Brown (164:45)

After arriving at the barricaded Imperial Tower, Cyril sneaks into Dedra's office to demand to know. Know what the Empire wants on Gorman. He chokes Dedra as she confesses that this has all been for the Emperor's new energy program. And she promises that they will soon return to Coruscant as heroes.

Robert Evans (165:04)

We'll get everything we want. The Empire will reward us for our loyalty. This is. This is it. This is the last fucked up thing we have to do. And then we can live happily ever after.

Mia Wong (165:13)

Yeah. Didn't you want this promotion?

Debbie Brown (165:15)

Yeah. Yeah.

Robert Evans (165:16)

She.

Debbie Brown (165:16)

She. She says that this might be the previous episode or this one, but like, when. When Cyril, like, kind of like protests that just like. Yeah, but you. You weren't complaining when you got promoted into this. Into this job. But Cyril wishes Dedra good luck, and he leaves to join the crowd outside. Cassian is stationed on the outskirts of the crowd, trying to line up a shot to take out Dedra. But stormtroopers soon kettle the crowd, and Imperial riot cops are sent into the square, there to jumpstart a flashpoint. Protesters throw rocks and bottles, but it's an Imperial sniper who is ordered to shoot their own riot cops that starts the Gorman massacre.

Robert Evans (165:54)

And they make a beautiful point. The kettling is done by stormtroopers, who are the elite, right? These are their very best infantry, the riot cops, from the moment they're introduced. Because we see these guys land with their kit bags. Their sergeant clearly has a lot more experience and is like, these guys don't know what the fuck they're doing. Doing. We cannot put them in any kind of dangerous situation.

Garrison Davis (166:16)

They have no idea.

Robert Evans (166:17)

And that's the point. That's why they're there. These men were handpicked to be the worst of the Empire because they're expendable. Right. And because you can count on them to panic, and that's what's needed.

Debbie Brown (166:27)

They're cannon fodders.

Robert Evans (166:28)

Yeah.

Debbie Brown (166:29)

They're sacrificial lambs.

Robert Evans (166:30)

Yeah.

Debbie Brown (166:31)

Now, Sir Cyril watches the chaos unfold as the Gorman Front tries to defend against the Imperial slaughter. And KX security droids are sent into the town square. But when Cyril sees Cassian, he suddenly lunges at him and the two get into a brutal brawl. Cyril gets the upper hand, but is shocked when Cassian does not remember who he is. While frozen pointing his blaster at Cassian. Cyril gets shot dead by the old leader of the Gorman Front.

Robert Evans (167:02)

There's Rylan's incredible moment. Yeah.

Debbie Brown (167:07)

While trying to exfiltrate Cassian, meets up with Willem, who decides to stay and help the Resistance in the aftermath of the massacre. The Gorman Front broadcasts the final message about the Imperial siege, claiming there are thousands dead in the streets. Cyril's mother is in tears watching news reports coming out of Gorman that frame the Imperial troopers killed as fallen heroes.

Robert Evans (167:29)

Yeah.

Debbie Brown (167:29)

Oh, boy, what an episode. Maybe the best episode in the series.

Mia Wong (167:33)

Just.

Debbie Brown (167:33)

Just phenomenal.

Robert Evans (167:35)

It's phenomenal, I'll give you that. I don't know which I'D pick as the best. But it's tough. It's tough.

Mia Wong (167:41)

I think it's the Prison Break one still.

Debbie Brown (167:42)

Prison Break one's very good.

Robert Evans (167:44)

I'm gonna go on a little rant about the name of this episode, who are you? Because that moment between Cassian and Cyril is one that Tony Gilroy has said in interviews he had to fight for. Everyone was like. And Diego Luna said it was one of the hardest lines for me to deliver. Because Luna likes the show and is a fan of the character Cyril and his acting. And he knows every. And has the degree of sympathy that you almost have to have for Cyril at this point.

Debbie Brown (168:10)

Totally.

Robert Evans (168:11)

And so it was such a difficult challenge for him to be like. To really sell. Who. Wait, who the fuck just are you?

Debbie Brown (168:17)

Shatters Cyril's self perception.

Robert Evans (168:19)

Well, and it's not even. I'll even push against a little bit that. Because I don't think it's entirely that. I think what I like about Cyril's journey is that. And what I like about this episode is that who are you? Is not just about that line. It is about every character that we see in this. We are learning who they all are. And they are learning who they all are. Rylance in the beginning, right? This guy who had been so gung ho about the Gorman resistance, who had been the. That when he realizes what's happening, that they're all going to be massacred, his family and his culture are going to be wiped out as a result of this act of resistance that he's helped to organize, he tries to stop it. He says, we have to pull back.

Debbie Brown (168:57)

We.

Robert Evans (168:57)

We. And he learns he's not a rebel. Right? He's not a revelation. And there's always been hints of that. He's not a rebel. He's always. You know, the emperor can't know about this, right? We've seen hints of this from Rylands. He learns that about himself. And then a little later in the episode when it's become. Cause he. We. We watch his kids get massacred.

Debbie Brown (169:15)

Yeah.

Robert Evans (169:15)

He doesn't see them, but he knows they're dead. He. He hears the gunfire. He understands no one's making it out of there. He's not a dumb man. And when he comes in and shoots Cyril in the head, he learns again who he is. And now he wasn't before, but now he is. Because they've taken everything from him. Right?

Debbie Brown (169:32)

Yeah. The quote from earlier when he's like arguing with people in the streets, he's like, the only path forward is silent resistance.

Robert Evans (169:39)

Yeah.

Debbie Brown (169:39)

And by the end of the episode, he is a little beyond that.

Robert Evans (169:44)

And I love for him that he gets a chance to learn who he is and be wrong and then learn again and be right. Right. Which is not a chance Cyril is going to get. Cyril does, and I'll. Cyril is. We see. We see a lot of characters in this who could only have been themselves in a fascist state. Dedra's one of them. Right. Dedra could not have been the person she is outside of the Empire.

Debbie Brown (170:10)

Totally.

Robert Evans (170:11)

I think Partagaz probably is, too. Could never have been himself. Fully outside, certainly.

Mia Wong (170:16)

Well, I. I think if you put Partagaz in the CIA, he is mostly the same guy.

Robert Evans (170:22)

I think he must have been in the Republic. CIA.

Debbie Brown (170:25)

Yeah. He feels very, like, Republic transitioned into the Empire, like, guy.

Robert Evans (170:31)

Yeah. And I think Krennic, obviously, is one of our best examples. Krennic is only.

Debbie Brown (170:34)

Krennic is an Empire guy.

Garrison Davis (170:36)

Yeah.

Robert Evans (170:36)

Krennic is under fascism. Cyril is not an ideological fascist. Cyril never really embraces fascism as a belief system. He never understands the Empire that way. He just understands the empire as law and order.

Debbie Brown (170:48)

Law and order.

Robert Evans (170:49)

He gets. If you look at it from Cyril's standpoint, he gets brought into this not because he wants to clamp down on the evil rebels. And he loves Palpatine and wants to kill freedom. It's because two guys are murdered that he considers colleagues. And he thinks it's wrong. Right.

Debbie Brown (171:04)

He has a sense of, like, justice.

Robert Evans (171:06)

And he believes he's following that. And he believes that his girlfriend is invested in that. And he truly believes. He doesn't want to hurt the people of Gorman. He wants to find the outside agitators who are driving them to disaster. Right. Right. And the moment when he learns that that's all a lie, he beats the shit out of his girlfriend in a very violent. I had an argument with someone online about, like, is this domestic violence? And I'm like, in a literal sense, these people are in a domestic partnership and he is doing violence to her. In a moral sense. If you find out that your significant other has been hiding a genocide from you, I think it's okay. Like, and you've been made complicit in it.

Debbie Brown (171:46)

It's such a fucked up. It's such a. It's such, like, everyone is. Everyone's fucked and everyone's evil and everyone's complicit.

Robert Evans (171:53)

Yes.

Debbie Brown (171:53)

And they're all, like, calling their own commitment to, like, the state and what they view as justice and law and order into question. And, like, for Cyril, like, he's, he is just committed to this idea of, like, justice and what he sees as law and order. And the empire is the physical manifestation of law and order. So therefore the empire must be good.

Robert Evans (172:11)

Right?

Debbie Brown (172:11)

And that's his view. And when he realizes is maybe the empire actually doesn't really care about law and order.

Robert Evans (172:18)

No. They just. It shatters him.

Debbie Brown (172:21)

So confused. Like, he, He. He doesn't know how to orient himself in the world. He doesn't know where a sense of morals can be derived from.

Robert Evans (172:27)

No.

Debbie Brown (172:28)

If the state is not. The represent, is not like the lawful good representation of, like, justice.

Robert Evans (172:33)

And we've seen from Cyril previously that he has physical courage, right? He's not afraid of violence. He's not afraid of putting himself in physical danger. Right. Like, he's not a Cassian andor level comfortable with it. Right. Because he just doesn't have that kind of experience. But he's. He's not. He's not physically a coward, but he's a moral coward the whole series. And that changes. And again, going back to who are you? He unders. He learns one thing about himself, which is that he is not a genocide committer. Right? He is not someone who will consciously participate in the annihilation of a race. Race. Right. When he learns that those are the stakes, he hits, he chokes Dedra, and he fucking runs. He doesn't know anything else about himself at that point. And my interpretation of his reaction to that line from Cassian isn't just because I. I think what I. What I love about the scene when he chooses to attack him. It's not him making a decision to go back to the Empire. He's not trying to rest, to fight Cassian because he wants to get back in. Good. It's just the only thing that makes sense. Sense.

Mia Wong (173:33)

He's. He's nothing else.

Debbie Brown (173:34)

According to his, like, child self.

Robert Evans (173:36)

Yes. Yes.

Debbie Brown (173:37)

Like, it's, it's.

Robert Evans (173:37)

It's crazy and it's animal. The way that he goes after him is like a rabid dog charging.

Debbie Brown (173:42)

You know, like this whole situation on Gorman calls into question how he sees the Empire and therefore how he sees himself as. He realizes that he's just been a pawn in the Empire's larger game. And like, in a way, Gorman's the. The first time that Cyril's been part of, like, a real community, maybe since he was like, a corpo cop. Like, there's no, like, solidarity and community like, on Coruscant. There's not in the Bureau of Standards.

Robert Evans (174:03)

Yeah.

Debbie Brown (174:03)

Like, Gorman's the first time he's actually kind of been a part of a community. And like, this happens with, like, with like, FBI double agents infiltrating radical organizations sometimes. It's.

Robert Evans (174:12)

It's.

James Stout (174:12)

Yeah, it's.

Debbie Brown (174:13)

It's very odd. So, like, when he decides to join the crowd, this is like he's aligning with them. But then when he sees Cassian, all of this psychological, like, progress and questioning that he's done just gets immediately rolled back because then he sees the guy who he thinks, like, kind of like ruined his life, who, like, who, who. Who altered the trajectory of what Cyril's life was supposed to be. And therefore he just. He, yeah, he, He. He, like, turns into an animal. He, he. He undoes all of. All of this psychological progress and attacks the guy that he views ruined his life. And then in his final moments, is. Is. Is in part like, confronted with the idea that, like, the guy that he's been obsessing over for years doesn't even remember who he is. And like, Cassian's been living rent free in his head this whole time. And, like, he didn't need to, like, Cyril could have moved on. Cyril didn't need to do this. And he's been obsessing over someone who doesn't even remember him.

Mia Wong (175:03)

So I think the other thing that's really important about Cyril's character is like, if you remember him in like, the very beginning of season one, right, he has like, like when he, like, goes home, like, he has like a storm. He has like, stormtrooper, like, figurines, clone.

Debbie Brown (175:17)

Trooper, like, action figures.

Mia Wong (175:18)

And he has. And, you know, and he's. He's like, tailoring his own uniform because he has this conception of himself as this, like, you know, as like this, like this brave cop, as this, like, sort of like, like this, like, this is a very specific kind of like, fascist bureaucrat with a gun.

Debbie Brown (175:33)

It's like platonic figure.

Robert Evans (175:34)

Yeah.

Mia Wong (175:34)

And the thing is, Dedra Miro is that actual person. And this is. And this is a tension that, that they. That is kind of worked out. Of course, season one of, like, Dedro Miro is a character who, in a conventional show is a hero. Right. Like, she is, she is. She is like the cop that's willing to win, work outside of the restrictions of the thing in order to get the job done.

Debbie Brown (175:53)

Yeah.

Mia Wong (175:53)

And. And you get to see what that actually is in real life, which is she's just torturing people. And, you know, she's torturing people and she's going. And she. And. And when she gets offered a chance to do the genocide in order to do her investment. She gets that. And I think part of what's going on with Cyril is like, Cyril's whole thing is that he has been trying to be this cop, and then he has this moment where he's like, like, oh, none of that's, like, real. The actual thing that it means to be this cop isn't just this. Isn't this like I dress up in my. In my clan's clothes. And he gets this in season one, too, where he, like, actually goes into the field and it's just like everyone's dying around him and he's shell shocked and things are exploding, and it's like he's getting that here again, where it's like his, like, thing where he's been cultivating this, like, intelligence person. And then he, He, He. He sees it and it just, like, it just sort of. It rips away the facade that's like. That is the facade of how, like, on a kind of macro level, like, how we. How film and television and how American media thinks about, like, spies and thinks about cops.

Debbie Brown (176:58)

Sure.

Mia Wong (176:59)

And you see that the actual brutal reality of it, which is, like, through the eyes of this person who, like, through this sort of, like, media stuff, has always wanted to become this person. And, like, oh, you're just doing a genocide. The one part of being a cop that I can do is, like, choking my partner.

Robert Evans (177:16)

Mm. So my interpretation of kind of his ending moments is that, number one, I don't really feel it is necessarily that he undoes all the progress. I think that there's this animal moment when he sees Cassian that just overrides because nothing else about his life makes sense anymore. He's completely lost any sense of sanity.

Debbie Brown (177:38)

Sure.

Robert Evans (177:38)

And Cassian makes sense fighting him. And so he does it. And we do see he has a chance to shoot him and he hesitates and he lowers the gun just a bit, and then he's immediately shot. And in that moment, number one, one of the themes of this is that, like, everyone has their own rebellion. There's a. An argument you can make that him not doing that was. Was his last little act of that. There's an argument that, like, maybe he would have, you know, tried to engage him in conversation or, like, you know, monologued or whatever, but he didn't get the chance. We just don't know. We'll never know. And he's kind of contrasted with Rylance in that Rylands does get the chance to see who he is and have it be not enough and then become enough. Cyril gets the chance to see who he is and he does do one. He gets one win. And it is a win to realize there's a genocide going on and I refuse to be a part of it. Right. That's not nothing that he makes that choice. We don't know where he would have gone from here. There's a version of Syril that could have been a part of the Rebel that could have if he had just left Cassie and helped some Gormans escape on a ship, used his Imperial credentials, gotten them out of there. Becomes something else. We'll never know because he doesn't get the chance. And I see in that last moment not just him being like, you don't know who I am. Oh, that shatters me. But him being asked, who are you? And realizing I have no answer to that question.

Debbie Brown (179:01)

Yeah, yeah.

Robert Evans (179:02)

And he just doesn't get the chance ever to do that.

Debbie Brown (179:05)

It is a very, like, Greek tragedy like moment here.

Robert Evans (179:10)

Yeah.

Debbie Brown (179:10)

Phenomenal. Phenomenal screenwriting.

Robert Evans (179:13)

I will argue it's going to get paid off a lot in the next three episodes. But this idea that does run through the series, that even if you are someone working within this machinery of death, within this evil empire, you are not unredeemable or unsavable, but you don't have unlimited time. Right.

Debbie Brown (179:30)

Yeah.

Robert Evans (179:31)

You can be something else. You have that chance, but you don't have infinite days to make that choice.

Debbie Brown (179:39)

This is like the entire message of Star Wars.

James Stout (179:42)

This is.

Padraig O'Rourke (179:43)

This is.

Debbie Brown (179:43)

This is like Luke Invader in the throne room. This is. This is like what this whole series, like, is about it. Like, is this moment.

Robert Evans (179:49)

Yeah. Yep.

Debbie Brown (179:51)

I. I do have a few other things I want to talk about in terms of, like, the massacre. I really like that we see a return of, like, Imperial military police, not just Stormtroopers. I think putting a face on the riot cops is really good for the audience because Stormtroopers are. Are backpacks and T shirts and little fun toys and Riot cops are riot cops. I really like that Wilman is sleeping with a French militant.

Robert Evans (180:15)

Many such cases among us.

Debbie Brown (180:21)

Heart of grass in. In like a phone call with Dedra is talking about how, like. Yeah, like, you know, propaganda news media has been useful and, like, spreading, like, rumors and like, you know, like cointelpro, that sort of stuff. It's been useful. But now the only. The quote is like, now the only story is Gorman aggression.

Robert Evans (180:36)

Yeah.

Debbie Brown (180:37)

Like, this is all that we can focus on. There's. There's no. No more of this, like, outside Agitators thing. No, no more of this, like, long term, slow planning. We just. We just have to focus on how, like, savage these Gormans are. And meanwhile, like Fox, like space, Fox News is outside stoking divisions on Gorman, talking about how there's rumors of a quote, unquote, general strike. How, how. How the Empire is negotiating for, like, a peaceful demonstration, even though the leaders are obviously, you know, making. Making people agitated in this, in this growing insurrection. The chants got me. I have heard way too many the. The whole world is watching chants. So as soon as they started going, we are the Gore, the galaxy is watching, I started like, I started like, like, sweating. I started having, like a panic attack.

Robert Evans (181:22)

No, no. That gave me a little breakdown too. It's my least favorite chance.

Debbie Brown (181:26)

No, no, it's happening again. No, no, the galaxy isn't watching.

Robert Evans (181:32)

No, it's not.

James Stout (181:33)

It's not.

Robert Evans (181:33)

I. Oh, God, I hate that chant. I hate that chant.

Mia Wong (181:39)

Retire it. Retire it.

Robert Evans (181:40)

But it's very real. It's very real, right? Like this. These are these guys, right? Yes.

Debbie Brown (181:45)

We get, we. We get like a real proper riot set up, right? Like, the last riot in Andor was on Fck. And like, that was like a funeral riot, right?

Robert Evans (181:53)

It's almost like some of the writers have seen kettles. It's crazy.

Debbie Brown (181:57)

Like, it's crazy. And like, this time, like, this is not like a morning ritual. Like, it, like it was on fair. Like, this is. This is. This is a protest riot. There's. There's signs, there's banners, there's fireworks, there's smoke, there's space Molotovs, there's state affiliated news crews. There's TIE fighters flying overhead like police copters and police drones. It's excellent.

Robert Evans (182:18)

I got a little flashback of being buzzed by a police helicopter at Standing Rocks, so close that it knocked my car off the road.

Debbie Brown (182:25)

That's what happened with the TIE fighter.

James Stout (182:26)

It was so good.

Robert Evans (182:28)

Yeah.

Mia Wong (182:29)

And it's like. I mean, like right down to like, just. Just like the micro dynamics of, like, how the crowd is interacting with the riot shields. It's like, oh, shit.

Debbie Brown (182:38)

And I got the same knot in my stomach when I can tell that shit's about to go down. Yeah, I get this. The same knot in my stomach watching this. Like, they really nailed it.

Robert Evans (182:47)

What's great, too, is within the just in the face acting with Cassian and with Willman, you can see that they know, too. They've been in this. They know Wilman is like, okay, okay, okay. I know what's happening.

Mia Wong (183:01)

I also really like that. Okay, so. So, okay, so the. The challenge that Gilroy has here is we have to introduce the concept of kettling to the average Star wars watcher. And with the average Star wars watcher, you can't be like, okay, the police are going to form a wall. You have to physically make walls come.

James Stout (183:18)

In around the thing.

Robert Evans (183:20)

Like, some people have said that the Gorman massacre is very clearly inspired by what's happened in Palestine. These episodes, I'm sure, were informed by other massacres in Pales were written prior to the most current outbreak of really intense genocidal violence in, like, 2021, 2022, probably. Again, there were other similar massacres that occurred in Palestine. But also, like, this is very clearly patterned off of Bloody Sunday in Northern Ireland. This is very clearly patterned off of, I would argue, my suspicion, the Amritsar massacre in India by the British government as well. Like, I think that there are pieces of all of that in.

Mia Wong (184:00)

There's also elements that I heard friend of the show, Emmy, who's great, talking about, like, the Tlalocco massacre, which is like that massacre in 1968 in a square in the middle of Mexico City, which is massacre, where there's, like, these giant student. The 68 student protests are happening, and they just, like, put snipers on the roofs and shoot everyone. And I think. So when I saw this, like, I thought it was going to be a lot more of just, like a straight massacre, everyone dies place, and it kind of turns into a shootout. And I wasn't sure how that was gonna play. Also, I think it is also worth remembering that, like, also a lot of the sort of famous historical massacres aren't, like, some people do shoot back.

Robert Evans (184:41)

Yes.

Mia Wong (184:41)

Because the thing is, Yenanmen, like, some of the. Some of. Some of the students, like, take workers from soldiers that they fought and, like, shoot. Well, yeah, this is. This is more the workers. And by the time they get into the square with the students, like, those people don't have guns. Some of the workers, like, try to fight back and just get massacred. But it seems to have been really effective.

Robert Evans (184:58)

Yeah, in.

Mia Wong (184:59)

In just, like, conveying that, like. Yeah, this happens constantly.

Robert Evans (185:03)

It happened in Maidan too. Right. Where you have, you know, both. You have Berkut snipers shooting and killing protesters, and you have protesters firing back from behind the barricades.

Debbie Brown (185:14)

Yeah, I really liked the singing the Gorman national anthem as a way to, like.

Robert Evans (185:18)

Yeah.

Debbie Brown (185:19)

Stop the chanting, which is, like, calling towards, you know, like, we're safe because the galaxy's watching us. And like, the guy who starts the song realizes, like, that maybe that's not true. And instead the song, like, unites people in, like, national solidarity to prepare them for what's about to happen. Instead of, like, gesturing outwards at like, this, at like, you know, those. Those off planet watching this. And that ensures our safety. Like, no, our safety is from, like, each other.

Robert Evans (185:44)

Other.

Debbie Brown (185:44)

And the fact that, yeah, so many of them do fire back and, like, it is it. They do not, like, lose their agency. And that doesn't, like, make this less of a massacre.

Mia Wong (185:51)

Yeah, there's another example of this is like, the Red Summer, which is like a whole bunch of like, anti anti black race riots in the US and it's. It's another one of these things. It's like, yeah, it's remembered as like, a bunch of white supremacists just murdered a bunch of black people. And that's true. But also, people fought back. Like, people had guns. People fought back. People resisted the them. And, you know, a lot of people fucking died. And also people in these situations fight back. And it's good.

Debbie Brown (186:17)

The last thing I want to discuss in this last section is the based hotel porter who throws that ball.

Robert Evans (186:23)

Oh, my God.

James Stout (186:24)

Oh, yeah.

Robert Evans (186:25)

And again, yeah, we are learning. He already knows. Clearly he knows who he is. He never has any question about that. But we don't know who he is. Cassian doesn't fully. Until he's like, yeah, I wiped you from the system, bro. Get out of here. Here.

Debbie Brown (186:38)

Right, that's what I want to talk about.

Robert Evans (186:39)

Yeah.

Debbie Brown (186:39)

Is this. Is this base hotel porter. And also that the way the way Cassian works as a spy is different from the way that other, like, Lutheran operatives do. Like, Cassian gets to know this guy in the previous arc of episodes when he's. When he's like, going to, like, survey the Gorman front like a year ago, and he gets into a conversation with this hotel porter who was at, like, the Tarkin massacre and was like. Was there when there was like 500 people died.

Robert Evans (187:02)

And like, his dad and his dad died protecting him.

Debbie Brown (187:05)

Yeah, like, watch his dad, like, converses with him. Him in his. In his hotel room to, like, learn about, like, the local people and to like, learn about the actual history from, like, a regular guy who experienced it. And this isn't something that, like, Vel and Cinta really do. This isn't something that Luthen really does. Like, like andor has a connection or, like, andor values making connections with just, like, the regular people in wherever he's operating. And this this always, like, turns out to help Andor in the long run, even if he doesn't really know it in, like, the immediate. Immediate because when Endor comes back a year later under a different name, with a different job, the hotel porter recognizes him and is like, I got you, buddy. I, I, I'll take care of you. I know that you're up to something and I will protect you. Like, we're, we are in this together. Like, I recognize you and I, like, value you. And that is what like helps, helps Andor like in this episode. And then also the grenades that he throws is, you know, cool.

Robert Evans (188:05)

And there's, there's a beautiful. Andor's last line to this kid is, I hope things work out for you. And the last thing we see that kid do is detonate a bomb to kill himself and a bunch of other people.

Debbie Brown (188:18)

Rebellions are built on hope.

Robert Evans (188:20)

Yeah.

James Stout (188:21)

Yeah.

Robert Evans (188:21)

And he tells him rebellions are built on hope, which is where we get that line from Rogue One.

Debbie Brown (188:25)

I like that. Sam, the guy with two M's who killed Cinta last arc is still in the fight and is killing Imperials. He is.

Robert Evans (188:32)

Yes.

Debbie Brown (188:32)

He is killing them in the name of Cinta. He is, he is showing up. He is real.

Robert Evans (188:36)

And he, he, he again, he learns who he is in this episode, right? Like, he's not just a fuck up. He rams a truck into that K2 unit and saves Andor.

Debbie Brown (188:45)

Saves Cassian.

Robert Evans (188:46)

Saves, Saves the whole day. Yes, he learns who he is. Yeah, he learns who he is.

Debbie Brown (188:51)

I do like that everything good that happens to Cassian. All the people who do it are, like, in part, like, responsible for the destruction of the Death Star, which shows how, like, the butterfly effect works in a really fun way.

Robert Evans (189:02)

Yeah.

Debbie Brown (189:03)

And like, like a good Lutheran operative, Cassidy takes K2 to get reprogrammed. But like this, this episode, like, ends on this, on this Gorman cry for help. This, like, final broadcast done by Wilman's French gf. And I, I was legitimately tearing up at this. It got to me. Andor starts tearing up. But, like, it's, it, it really got to me. Um, and then, like, we zoom out of Gorman and you can see like, how unnatural the Imperial, like, tower is, is above, like the regular Palmo skyline with its, like, you know, historical architecture. Then you have this like, just, just like, hideous, like, Imperial, like, Citadel, like, casting a dark shadow over the town. And then we, we cut to Cyril's mom crying, watching Fox News where they're talking about how outside rebel assistance helped the Gorman front and they Question. What's the price we'll pay for our own safety? And that's how the episode ends. What a soad.

Robert Evans (190:01)

What a sod.

Debbie Brown (190:03)

All right, we'll go on a break and then come back to briefly discuss this last episode, which is also quite good. Okay, we are back. Episode nine. Welcome to the Rebellion. Clone Wars. Heads are feasting. So much Senate. Very fun. So, on Coruscant, fake news spreads about what has happened on Gorman, and the Gorman Senator is arrested. With no warrant and no charges, Mon Mothma plans to make a final speech in the Senate and then leave Coruscant with Bail Organa to lead the rebel alliance on Yavin. But Senator Organa doesn't want to leave yet. He wants to stay and buy time for Yavin to get fully up and running. Running. But he advises Mon to go through with the speech and offers an extraction team to help her get off Coruscant. While writing her speech, Mon Mothma's Senate aide, Erskine finds an ISB listening device in her office. She goes outside to practice the speech while Erskine continues to search for more bugs. Waiting outside for Mon is Luthen, who tells her that Erskine's been secretly working for him for two years and that Bael's extraction team is somehow corrupt. Did Mon grows upset at Luthen's deceptions and secrets and is unsure of who to trust. But Luthen says that he is sending a highly trusted operative as an alternative extraction plan. Cassian, still undercover as a conflict journalist, agrees to escort Mon Mothma as his last job for the Rebellion. Other senators mourn the imperial martyrs slain by the Savage Gorman before Bail Organa invokes a Senate article to hand the floor to Mon Mothma, where she gives her speech, calling what's happened on Gorman a genocide and labels Emperor Palpatine a monster that, empowered by the Senate, has hijacked the truth and reality. The ISB orders to shut down the Senate feed and detain Senator Mothma, but as Mon exits the Senate chamber, Cassian is waiting outside. As Luthen suspected, one of Bail's extraction team members is an ISB double agent and kills another one of Bail's operatives once they're found out. The undercover ISB agent tries to arrest Mon, but is killed by Erskine and Cassian. Manh helps navigate through the Senate building as it's put into lockdown, eventually reaching her vehicle outside, where Cassian kills her driver, Chloris, who's also an ISP plant.

Robert Evans (192:33)

Well, was. Maybe we'll talk about that. Yeah.

Debbie Brown (192:36)

Cassian takes Wilman to Yavin for medical attention while Gold Squadron finishes Mons escort to the rebel base. Back on base, Bix breaks up with Cassian via Snapchat message and leaves Yavin to fight for the rebellion elsewhere. And to keep Cassian on Gavin.

Robert Evans (192:54)

Yeah.

Debbie Brown (192:55)

And later that day, rebel engineers reprogram the salvaged KX droid. Okay, this episode has a lot of. A lot of politics, a lot of politicking, a lot of. A lot of Capitol Senate stuff.

Robert Evans (193:09)

I want to read a little bit from Mon Mothma's speech here.

Mia Wong (193:12)

Sure.

Robert Evans (193:13)

What I think is kind of the nut of it here. I believe we are in a crisis. The distance between what is said and what is known to be true has become an abyss. Of all the things at risk, the loss of an objective reality is perhaps the most dangerous. The death of truth is the ultimate victory of evil. When truth leaves us, when we let it slip away, when it is ripped from our hands, we become vulnerable to the appetite of whatever monster screams the loudest.

Debbie Brown (193:38)

Boy, it's a little orange man bad. But, hey, the orange man is bad.

Robert Evans (193:44)

It's not just orange. It's making a broader, more historical point that totally.

Garrison Davis (193:49)

Yes.

Robert Evans (193:49)

The reason all of this works, by destroying any kind of shared concept of reality, you can get people to. If you can get people to believe absurdities, you can get them to commit atrocities. Right.

Debbie Brown (194:00)

I mean, this is what, like, the Nazis understood as well.

Robert Evans (194:04)

Yes. And I love that speech. I think it's really. One of the. One of my favorite bits of this is that it continues to show the degree to which, as in Nimic's manifesto, tiny, spontaneous individual acts of rebellion are constantly occurring and are a key part of the movement even when they're not organized. Mothma only gets through her speech and maybe only lives because a team of door repair guys who do not appear to be anyone's secret agents just up purposefully at their job. Like, we can't get in. I don't know, man. We can't get into the fucking thing. Like, you're gonna have to wait. We're still working on this. And it's kind of inferred that, like, it's. It's weaponized incompetence. Right. And I really appreciate that bit. We have a showdown with her and her driver because she becomes aware before her speech that her driver, who she's been taking in as a confidant in the last couple episodes.

Debbie Brown (194:54)

Well, no, no, no, no. Like her. She's known. Her driver, Chloris, has been like ISB for, like, two seasons.

Robert Evans (195:01)

This is a different driver, I think, than First.

Debbie Brown (195:03)

No, this is the same driver because she's been taught.

Robert Evans (195:06)

She's been talking to Cloris a couple of times. She makes a comment about how this one hurts.

Debbie Brown (195:10)

She's been talking to, like, Erskine, like, oh, shit.

Robert Evans (195:13)

Yeah, she's.

Debbie Brown (195:14)

She's been getting closer to, like, her Senate aide, Chlores has always been like a dipshit who they've kept around because he's like, kind of bad at his job. He is bad at being an isb, like, like paid informant. So they like, keep him around even though they know he's reporting to isb.

Robert Evans (195:29)

There's a little bit of an insinuation with him looking at his gun and listening to her that maybe he's rethinking things. But again, we never get the chance to see that because Cassian just shoots.

Debbie Brown (195:38)

I think he's like, thinking about if he's going to have to, like, arrest or shoot her.

Mia Wong (195:40)

Yeah, that was, that was my read on it.

Robert Evans (195:42)

I think he's making up his mind about what he's going to do. And I don't think we actually see that. But I mean, I think it's open to interpretation.

Debbie Brown (195:49)

Yeah, because Cassian domes his little, his little thumbnail.

Robert Evans (195:52)

Because Cassian does not take chances like that. He does not take chances.

Debbie Brown (195:57)

And also Cassian employs great tactics in asking Mon what his name is first to engage him in conversation, to distract him enough to like, totally surprise him. Yeah, very good.

Robert Evans (196:07)

I also, I like the one of the kind of. It's not stated directly, but like Lonnie, the Imperial deep cover agent within the ISB is, is the guy who put these people there. Particularly the incompetent ISB agent who Cassie. And first shoots the lady.

Debbie Brown (196:22)

The person who's infiltrated Monsieur Bale's team. Yeah. Like, the reason why Luthen knows that there's something wrong with Bale's team is because the agent that has, that has infiltrated like, Bale's, like, network is one of Lonnie's agents. So Lonnie was able to, to get word to Luthen that there could be a problem with, with Baal's extraction team. And that's what, that's what helps helps get Mon to Yavin safely.

Robert Evans (196:47)

Yeah. And it's just kind of more confirmation of the value of Lonnie, of, like, having him there and how he, how much he was worth the sacrifice of Ando Krieger and his Rebels and Season one.

Debbie Brown (196:59)

No, Lonnie. Lonnie is mvp like A lot of this episode is kind of showing how much Luthen's accelerationist project has kind of succeeded. Like, like, how much he's. He's in somewhat set up Gorman, or at least like fed the fire of Gorman slightly to create this political crisis to further his, like, accelerationist goal of creating this, like, big conflict. And like, we see some of that start to work out, even though Luthen himself is like, having a much harder time and the kind of the. The house of cards he's built is starting to crumble and he's probably not going to be able to like, work with many people for. For very much longer.

Mia Wong (197:33)

Yeah. And that's like. That's like the other thing I want to mention about this episode about the way Luthen operates is that. Because the way Luthen operates is by fucking not telling anyone anything and by manipulating people and by spying on them and by like having this whole network of double agents and like, people. Who doesn't like, the problem with operating like that, and this is the problem that he's running into here is like, Mon Mothma does not trust him because the thing that she learned when Lutheran comes to tell her, like, hey, the. The.

Debbie Brown (197:58)

You can't go with Bale's team.

Mia Wong (197:59)

Yeah. Bale's team is going to kill you. She's like, you. This.

Debbie Brown (198:02)

You've had my own AIDS spying on.

Mia Wong (198:04)

Me for two years.

Debbie Brown (198:05)

My own assistance. What the.

Mia Wong (198:07)

Yeah, like, it's like, like this. This is like a persistent problem with the like. And you start to see this.

Debbie Brown (198:12)

This.

Garrison Davis (198:12)

I have.

Debbie Brown (198:13)

Have we.

Mia Wong (198:13)

Sorry, I don't. Have we seen Vel, like, not working with him anymore? I think we have in these episodes.

Robert Evans (198:19)

Vel does not seem to be working with him anymore. She's more or less completely gone in on the actual, like, military part of the alliance.

Debbie Brown (198:26)

Vel's on Yavin.

Mia Wong (198:27)

Yeah. Well, and this. And this is the. This is. The thing about this is like, you get to watch everyone.

Debbie Brown (198:31)

People are walking away from Luthen.

Mia Wong (198:32)

Yeah. You get to watch everyone who Luthen had worked. Everyone walks away with him because they're like, this guy keeps being an asshole and he keeps hiding things from people and he keeps manipulating everyone. And it's like, it's like he's doing. And this is. This is like also. This is the kind of person also that you run into where it's like, they're doing really important work. And also interpersonally they're impossible to fucking work with. And like, like. And you can, you can watch it.

Debbie Brown (198:54)

Even Cassie is dealing with this having.

Mia Wong (198:55)

Like real political ramifications. Yeah. Where it's just like, no, this guy has been just like jerking our chain around and like lying to us and manipulating us for so long that all of the relationships that he needs are breaking down. And it's no longer a position where because he's the guy with the money and the arms and the coordination, everyone to work with him, they now have a choice to like go do literally anything else. And everyone keeps walking away. And it like almost gets Mon Mothma killed because she's so pissed at him that he's been like, spy having her.

Debbie Brown (199:24)

Spied on but also saves her. Like it, it, it, it's, it's, it's, it's a double edged thing. It does see distrust with Mon, but it also is what got.

Robert Evans (199:35)

Because it is, it is him who gets Mon out.

Mia Wong (199:39)

Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's like, it's just this like really messy.

Debbie Brown (199:42)

That's what makes him a good character is that he is both, like, he.

Robert Evans (199:44)

Understands who he is.

Debbie Brown (199:46)

He's like fucked up and morally compromised and is obviously hashtag problematic but is also completely necessary within the plot that they've created and like somewhat defensible and like he knows that he's like fucked. Like he, he says like, there's no yavin for me. I'm not going to yavin. I'm never gonna see the sunrise. Like, that's not what my role is. I have to be the asshole here, here. And yeah, it sucks. And we start to see like his fake Luthan like gallery Persona starting to collapse here too. Like this whole episode, he's not in his like, wig, he's not in his like fancy clothes. He is like insurgent Luthen. This rule that he's cultivated these past few years is no longer needed and it does have negative consequences. Yeah. Mon is not trusting him in this moment where she kind of really has to like. Mon thinks that Luthen might just be trying to like protect him himself. That Luthen might not actually care about Mon's own safety. Cassian is, is tired of always being a tool for someone else and is dealing with trauma and burnout and Erskine's just caught in the middle of this whole, this, this whole shitstorm. And yeah, this is, this is what makes it compelling. Yeah.

Mia Wong (200:51)

Yeah, absolutely.

Robert Evans (200:52)

Yeah. Yeah. It's just good character writing.

Debbie Brown (200:55)

We've all been bent by secrecy is what he says.

Robert Evans (200:58)

Yeah. And, and by God he has. And there's, there's a couple of really Good moments in this that I don't want to skip over. There's the next year in Yavin moment between Mon Mothma and Bail Organa, which I saw someone on Twitter decree to be Zionist propaganda. Sorry, yeah, like, that is definitely based on next year in Jerusalem, a term that has been in use for like, way more than half of a millennia. That has nothing to do with Zionism. You're just being racist. I'm sorry. And it's a nice, like, it's a. I think a nice nod to the travails of like, what we are seeing is like a diaspora. Right. As people have to flee their homes to participate in the rebellion. Right. I think it's an appropriate kind of callback to real world history there. And the line where I think that moment between her and Bail works really effectively and the thing that he's doing works really effectively.

Debbie Brown (201:56)

This interaction between her and Bael also shows like, the difference between how Bael operates and Luthen operates because, like, man asks BAAL if he trusts his people. Like, like if he trusts his extraction team. And he says, like, of course, yeah, but he. But. But he has to admit that he doesn't actually know them personally for. For quote, unquote, safety. And like, this is. This is where it shows like, the difference between someone like baal, who's maybe less manipulative than Luthen, maybe a little bit less morally compromised than Luther, but also in. In moments like this, this, like, in. In specific moments like this comes up a little bit short compared to Luthen's like, you know, semi. Semi like destructive and like bridge burning tactics which. Which he. Which he openly describes as bridge burning. I. I think. I think this episode, like, are. Are there any bridges you haven't burned yet? Well, we're going to deal with that soon.

Robert Evans (202:48)

Yeah, we will be dealing with that soon. I. I would like to call out Mon Mothma's face acting in both the scenes where Cassian just immediately domes a motherfucker.

Debbie Brown (202:58)

Oh my God.

Robert Evans (202:59)

Incredible stuff.

Mia Wong (203:00)

Yeah. She's like, holy.

Robert Evans (203:01)

She's. She's known intellectually and it's even hit her because she had a friend of hers kill, right? A former lover. She didn't order it, but it was done and she knew it was happening, so she's not.

Debbie Brown (203:12)

She had to cope with it.

Robert Evans (203:13)

Totally naive. But the rebellions, I would argue, not fully real to her until she sees a man shot through the brains.

Debbie Brown (203:21)

It's funny because she like, like minutes earlier has a line where, where she's like, like hiding in the Senate, this whole time will have been the hardest thing we've ever done. And then it's immediately faced with, like, the lethal consequences for her actions. Yeah, it's like, I don't know if.

Robert Evans (203:36)

I could do much worse.

Mia Wong (203:37)

Well, and it's also like. It's interesting, too, because it's like the second person she's seen shot in this episode, right? Because, like, there's also, like, the.

James Stout (203:45)

The.

Mia Wong (203:45)

The. The first ISB agent who they have.

Debbie Brown (203:47)

Shot, but it's like she doesn't know.

Mia Wong (203:48)

The person she knows, right? No, it's just like some cop.

Debbie Brown (203:52)

And then she's known Cloris for years.

Mia Wong (203:53)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she's just watching just like, yep. Nope. And the way Andor just instantly is like, yeah, no, fuck dead Immediate.

Debbie Brown (204:00)

Yeah.

Mia Wong (204:00)

She's like, holy shit, what have I gotten myself into?

Debbie Brown (204:03)

Ethan's strongest soldiers. Kill two Undercover ISB this episode. Give him a hand, folks. Yeah, no, this is a really. A really. A really sleek episode. I do like that, like, Bail's, like, infiltrator has, like, a real ISB look to her face as soon as I saw that actress. So, like, that one has got to be the undercover isb, right?

Robert Evans (204:27)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. She. Look, she just got that feblo.

Debbie Brown (204:29)

She has that ISB jaw. Very good.

Robert Evans (204:33)

There's one thing I'd like to bring up at the end of these episodes that's kind of a callback to the very first episode of the show, because the first time we see our boy Cyril, he's just convinced that something is. And people. I've seen people point out, Cyril's actually really good at his job. He points this out that, like, I solved a murder in two days, right? He figured out who had. Who had killed these officers very quickly. Quickly. And one of my favorite little undercutting of serial points is that his boss solves it even faster. Like in that first conversation, because his boss is an older guy. He's a corporate cop. He clearly has been doing whatever he's been doing since probably before the Clone wars, right? He's been near. Near the end of his career than the beginning. And he doesn't like the Empire, Right. He's not even that much of a law and order guy. He's more of a get through the day and do my fucking job guy. When Cyril brings up Cassian killing these cops, he's like, yeah, man, they're at a brothel. I know their salaries. They can't afford that. They were shaking people down. They shake the wrong guy down, and they got Killed. Best to ignore it. You don't want the Empire over here. And every aspect of Cyril's life would have been better if he'd listened to this guy who I'm sure spends the rest of the empire sitting on, like, barely notices the end of things, you know, he's probably retired by the. Then. Just a shout out to the smartest. The smartest guy in security services we meet over the course of these entire series. That old dude at the desk who's like, not worth it. Not getting into it. Yeah, I wouldn't ask anybody anything.

Debbie Brown (206:05)

Poor, poor Cyril. What. What a little weasel.

Robert Evans (206:09)

Yeah, no, he. He fucked up. He fucked up bad.

Debbie Brown (206:12)

I. I love. I always love being in the Senate. She does call the Gore massacre a genocide. Performed the whole speech. Very, very solid acting as usual. Genevieve O'Reilly. Fantastic work as Mon this entire season.

Robert Evans (206:28)

Everyone's great. God damn. Oh, we should also talk a little bit about Dedra's breakdown after the Gorman massacre.

Debbie Brown (206:34)

Yeah. In Episode eight.

Robert Evans (206:35)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which also does fit into the whole who are you? Thing where we see that she's not like a complete sociopath path. Right. She's not absolutely devoid of horror over what she's doing. She's just willing to accept the horror in order to get what she wants out of life, which I think is just like a much more realistic portrayal of human evil than we tend to get.

Debbie Brown (206:58)

Yeah, she. She finds ways to cope and justify.

Robert Evans (207:01)

Yeah.

Debbie Brown (207:01)

And like, you know, Lonnie is having to find ways to cope and justify, but he's. He's doing that through being a double agent and feeding. And feeding Luthen, like, very, very important intel as we see in this episode and the next. Mm, let's see. Yeah, I think this is. This is most of what I. What I had on. On. On this sod.

James Stout (207:19)

Oh, yeah.

Debbie Brown (207:19)

I mean, Bix. Bix. Bix breaks up with Cassian to. To force Cassian to stay in the. In the alliance, even though he's probably not gonna be working with Luthen again. I'll have more to say about Bix next week, I guess.

Robert Evans (207:31)

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I. I have a lot to say about this, but I think we'll wait until last episode to fully discuss Bix. I think that's probably best.

Garrison Davis (207:41)

Yeah.

Mia Wong (207:41)

Yep.

Debbie Brown (207:42)

But. But this. This batch specifically, I think is. Is some. Is some real solid. Real solid. So is. Wow. Star Wars.

Robert Evans (207:51)

The stars have never been more wars. Garrison. The stars have never been more wars. Can all agree on that.

Mia Wong (208:13)

This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. May is mental Health Awareness Month and Talkspace, the leading virtual therapy provider, is telling everyone let's face it in therapy, by talking or texting with a supportive licensed therapist at Talkspace, you can face whatever is holding you back, whether it's mental health symptoms, relationship drama, past trauma, bad habits or another challenge that you need support to work through. It's easy to sign up. Just go to talkspace.com and you'll be paired with a provider, typically within 48 hours. And because you'll meet your therapist online, you don't have to take time off work or arrange childcare. You'll meet on your schedule. Plus, Talkspace is in network with most major insurers and most insured members have a $0 copay. Make your mental health a priority and start today. If you're not covered by Insurance, get $80 off your first month with Talk Talkspace when you go to talkspace.com and enter promo code SPACE80. That's S P A CE80 to match with a licensed therapist today, go to talkspace.com and Enter promo code SPACE80.

Robert Evans (209:14)

On November 5, 2018 at 6:33am, a red Volkswagen Golf was found abandoned in a ditch out in Sleep Hole Valley. The driver, driver's seat door was open. No traces of footsteps leaving the vehicle. No belongings were found except for a cassette tape lodged in the player. On that tape were 10 vile. No, no no no no no no no no no. Grotesque. Oh my God.

Mia Wong (209:50)

Oh my God.

Robert Evans (209:51)

Horrific stories that to this day have been kept restricted from the public until now. You feeling this too? A horror anthology podcast.

Mia Wong (210:07)

Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

James Stout (210:13)

In 1978, Roger Karan's first book was published and he was unlike any first time authority author Canada had ever seen.

Padraig O'Rourke (210:22)

Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted.

Robert Evans (210:24)

Has spent 24 of those years in.

Padraig O'Rourke (210:27)

Jail, 12 years in solitary.

James Stout (210:29)

He went from an ex con to a literary darling almost overnight.

Sam Mullins (210:33)

He was instantly a celebrity, he was.

Mia Wong (210:37)

An adrenaline junkie and he was the star of the show.

Robert Evans (210:41)

Goboy is the gritty true story of.

James Stout (210:44)

How one man fought his way out of of some of the darkest places imaginable. I had a knife go in my.

Garrison Davis (210:49)

Stomach, puncture my spleen, break my ribs.

Debbie Brown (210:51)

I had my guts all in my.

James Stout (210:53)

Hands only to find himself back where he started.

Mia Wong (210:56)

Roger's saying is I've never hurt anybody but myself.

Padraig O'Rourke (210:59)

And I said oh, you're so wrong. You're so wrong that one.

James Stout (211:03)

Rod from Campside Media and iHeart Podcasts listen to GoBoy on the iHeartRadio app and Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Robert Evans (211:17)

Giving yourself that agency to not just be one thing, right? I don't have to be the perception that is crafted or the version of me that everyone is kind of projecting onto me. Like I am having my human experience and it is faceted. It's so faceted and it's fascinating. May is mental health awareness month and Deeply well is a sanctuary for your human healing.

Debbie Brown (211:38)

I'm Debbie Brown, healer, well being, expert.

Robert Evans (211:41)

Teacher and fellow seeker.

Debbie Brown (211:42)

And each week we explore what it.

Robert Evans (211:45)

Means to become whole through soul expanding conversations and practices. Why focus on Tiny Joys? Well, because they remind us of what.

Mia Wong (211:53)

It means to be human.

Robert Evans (211:55)

They anchor us in the present moment and they create ripples of gratitude that nourish our spirit. Tiny joys are acts of self love. To hear this and more ways to prioritize your peace. Listen to Deeply well from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app.

Mia Wong (212:12)

Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your.

Robert Evans (212:14)

Podcasts at T Connecting changes everything.

Debbie Brown (212:28)

I will get way too mad if I talk about the DNC anymore in this pretty preamble. This is it could happen here. Executive Disorder, our weekly newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world and what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis. Today I'm joined by James Stout, Mia Wong and Robert Evans.

Robert Evans (212:44)

That's right, everybody.

Debbie Brown (212:44)

This episode we are covering the week of May 8th through May 15th. Trump gets bribed by cutter, Stephen Miller wants to suspend habeas corpus and a twitch streamer gets interrogated at the border. Or how are we doing, fellas?

Robert Evans (213:02)

I don't know. Bad. Like every time we do this, I'm.

Debbie Brown (213:05)

Not talking to border patrol willingly.

Robert Evans (213:09)

And instead that's what I'm doing that I'm not doing. I'm staying the fuck away from the border. Although it's also impossible to stay the fuck away from the border because like 90% of the country lives technically within the border patrols from it.

Debbie Brown (213:23)

Yeah, but if you are happening to go through the border and you do get stopped by law enforcement, you should not talk to them. You should, you should say that you're staying silent and will only speak with.

Robert Evans (213:32)

A lawyer, you have certain things that you have to say, right? If they decide to talk to you about something other than, you know, here's my passport, etc. Do I have anything to declare? Which you do have to answer. If they attempt to engage you in other conversation about, say, your political beliefs, all you have to say is, am I being detained? And if they say yes, you say, I plead the Fifth and I demand to speak to a lawyer. And then nothing else. There's nothing else you say? That's how you should handle this situation.

Garrison Davis (214:02)

Yeah.

Debbie Brown (214:03)

You definitely do not need to debate your politics. Not required with the border patrol.

Garrison Davis (214:09)

Tell them how you feel about Palestine. That's. Yeah. Not gonna end well.

Robert Evans (214:15)

No, not necessary. And yeah, like, it's one of those things. I have no desire to like, get into an online beef with the fellow who got stopped. He is a big boy and able to make his own choices, but I do not recommend you make those same choices because there's no actual benefit to you in doing that. Right?

Garrison Davis (214:35)

Yeah.

Mia Wong (214:35)

Yeah. Don't talk to cops. It's very easy to not talk to cops. I'm doing it right now.

Robert Evans (214:39)

Uh huh.

Garrison Davis (214:40)

That's what you think?

Mia Wong (214:41)

Trivially easy.

Robert Evans (214:43)

Yeah. It's simple and unnecessary and it's just like largely. The problem is that, and this is even something that he talked about where like, well, the guy seemed really nice and he. And apologetic and like he didn't want to have to do this. And if you're having a conversation like that with them, then they're getting what they want out of it, which is for you to feel like that. Right. For you to feel like, oh, okay, this guy's, this guy's nice. I can chat with him for a little while.

Debbie Brown (215:10)

You feel safe enough to talk. Yeah.

Robert Evans (215:12)

Yes.

Debbie Brown (215:12)

That's the whole, that's their entire job. That's what they're trying to get you to do. Technique.

Garrison Davis (215:16)

Yeah. Yeah.

Debbie Brown (215:17)

And again, like this is, this is specifically if you are like a US citizen coming to reenter the country. There's, there's different, different rules and different, different suggestions which you should talk with an immigration lawyer about if you are not a U.S. citizen.

Robert Evans (215:29)

Yes. This is not advice for people who are coming here and not citizens.

Sam Mullins (215:32)

Yeah, yeah.

Garrison Davis (215:33)

None of this is legal advice, but yeah.

Debbie Brown (215:35)

You really, really do not need to get into a debate with the border guard about your policy politics when you're trying to enter the country or any other time, really.

Garrison Davis (215:42)

Just, just don't, don't.

Debbie Brown (215:44)

Or really any time, frankly.

Robert Evans (215:46)

Yeah. There's no point in time in which that's useful to you or anyone else.

Garrison Davis (215:50)

You ain't changing their minds.

Debbie Brown (215:52)

Maybe there's more to politics than debate.

Mia Wong (215:54)

No.

Debbie Brown (215:55)

Speaking of more to politics, the pkk.

Garrison Davis (215:58)

Yeah.

Debbie Brown (215:59)

What's going on with the pkk, fellas?

Robert Evans (216:02)

We should, we should give a brief overview of who The PKK is. The PKK is the Kurdish Workers Party. And it is originally a Maoist and now not that terrorist group. That's legally how it's defined by the United States and by most Western countries. That was started in southern Turkey like in the late 70s, close to 50 years ago. And it started out as a rather different kind of organization than it is. It's. It's one of its founders. And generally the guy I referred to as its founder is a dude named Abdullah Ajalan or Apo, who got captioned Kenya a few decades back and has been in a Turkish prison ever since, but does continue to, like, write stuff that informs because there's kind of this strong Maoist core at the heart of the. The foundation of the party continues to have a lot of influence over it. And this is the root of kind of the different organizations that sprung out and became what we call Rojava is this, this group that kind of came in during ISIS's invasion and, you know, had changed significantly from its Maoist roots at that point. And kind of from the pkk, we get the YPG and the YPJ and, you know, these different social and militant movements in northeast Syria. Anyway.

Garrison Davis (217:24)

Yeah, they would dispute the. From the pkk.

Robert Evans (217:27)

They sure would. Yes. But Robert's Naron, for a good legal reason.

Garrison Davis (217:33)

Yes, yes. But they're all inspired by the political thought of Aurlan. Right. Like, we can say that safely.

Robert Evans (217:39)

Yeah.

Garrison Davis (217:39)

And Oshilan, I guess, addressed by video, the 12th Congress of the PKK, which occurred earlier this month, at which they voted to disband themselves and lay down their arms. So that's the. They had a meeting. Right, A get together, obviously. It seems that Turkey decided not to airstrike that meeting. Turkey has been carrying out airstrikes against the PKK in three different countries for decades and sort of small arms engagements as well, and artillery and the whole nine yards. So, yeah, at that conference they decided to lay down their arms and begin disbanding themselves and return to. They're still pursuing their struggle, I guess, for freedom for Kurdistan, but this time through the democratic process.

Robert Evans (218:25)

Yeah, we're going to cover this subject in more detail on Tuesday, next Tuesday. But suffice it to say, like, this does not mean that, like, the PKK is like, like that all of the kind of different movements that came out of and were inspired by the PKK are like, folding up and setting, setting up shop. This is more of a pragmatic decision made as the result of the changes of situations on the ground. And the progress that a number of these other movements have made. And, yeah, this is worthy of deeper discussion. We'll give it deeper discussion. But this is something that's going to hopefully at least mean that Turkey spends less time bombing northern Iraq, although that. That it may be foolish to hope too much for that.

Garrison Davis (219:09)

Yeah. Do you love to bomb northern Iraq? I guess they're calling it their, like, Good Friday moment. So for people who are familiar with. With the Irish situation.

Robert Evans (219:17)

Yeah. When the IRA was like, maybe we've done enough.

Garrison Davis (219:24)

And significantly, when there were releases of people who were incarcerated.

Robert Evans (219:27)

Right, right. And the British government did make some significant concessions, too. Yes.

Garrison Davis (219:30)

So we will learn more if there were concessions involved in this process or if it was a kind of unilateral thing.

Robert Evans (219:36)

Yeah. There's a lot of rumors, again, just to go briefly, that the. The. The Turkish government essentially needs. That Erdogan essentially needs some of the support of the. The Kurdish parties in order to maintain. Keep doing Erdogan shit. So, again, we'll see on all that.

Garrison Davis (219:52)

Yep.

Debbie Brown (219:53)

Speaking of not blowing each other up, India and Pakistan.

Robert Evans (219:58)

Well, yeah, slightly blowing. Lightly blowing each other up. Can we say that without minimizing it?

Garrison Davis (220:04)

Yeah, there's some. There's been some blowing up.

Mia Wong (220:06)

Yeah. So let's talk about this. We are thankfully no longer on nuclear war. Watch.

Robert Evans (220:12)

Yeah.

Mia Wong (220:13)

Which is great.

Debbie Brown (220:13)

Nuke watch. Put on pause.

Robert Evans (220:15)

It's all cool. Everything's fine.

Debbie Brown (220:20)

I was. I was talking with a friend last night about whenever this sort of confrontation happens. One of the nice things about a globalist world order is that if the rest of the world goes, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Garrison Davis (220:33)

Fellas, guys.

Robert Evans (220:36)

Come on.

Debbie Brown (220:36)

Now it kind of works.

Robert Evans (220:39)

Pull him back.

Garrison Davis (220:40)

Hold me back, bro.

Robert Evans (220:41)

China got a head and Pakistan's chest.

Debbie Brown (220:44)

Calm down.

Garrison Davis (220:45)

It's not worth it, mate. It's not worth it.

Robert Evans (220:47)

They're not worth it. They're not worth it.

Garrison Davis (220:49)

That's the role of the United nations.

Robert Evans (220:51)

Look at J.D. vance, like, massaging India's shoulders. I know, man, I know, but it's cool.

Debbie Brown (220:58)

Whenever things get really spicy between two equal powers, if one of their buddies just can go, hey, hey, dude. Whoa, whoa, whoa. It kind of works. Which is a little bit silly, but, yeah.

Robert Evans (221:08)

Yeah. Just remind everyone in charge, do you know how rich you are? Come on. You don't want this. Like, you've got hot tubs in your mansion. It ain't worth it.

Mia Wong (221:19)

Yeah, Foreign politics, so much of it is just so unbelievably stupid. Like, it is just, like, weird nationalist masculinity bullshit. Where it's like, okay, so we killed some of your people, and then you're going to kill some of our people. And then we can both agree that we, like, retaliated, neither of us back down, and then we'll do a ceasefor. So the good news here is that we did actually get a ceasefire. The ceasefire is holding, and it's continued to hold. This is not like a kind of like, Israel, Palestine, cease fire, where the Israelis immediately just start, like, shooting everyone an instant later. This is actually holding. It's good. It will probably continue to hold. We got some more details from Reuters, who talked to a bunch of officials from different camps. But we know now we're going to do a longer episode about this next week.

Debbie Brown (222:05)

Week. Tuesday.

Mia Wong (222:06)

Yeah.

Garrison Davis (222:06)

All the wars on Tuesday.

Mia Wong (222:08)

Probably Tuesday. Unless, like, I don't know, like, some other shit happens. Who knows? I don't want to ever promise an episode's going on a day, because Tuesday.

Debbie Brown (222:15)

Or Tuesday or Wednesday, it's like, we could wake up.

Mia Wong (222:20)

Trump has, like. Trump has, like, declared that, like, his meme coin is now the official currency of the United States or something. Like, who knows?

Debbie Brown (222:27)

Tuesday or Wednesday, we'll say, yeah, yeah.

Mia Wong (222:30)

So what seems to have happened, happened that really escalated everything is that India fired on a critical Pakistani air base. And Pakistan was like, all right, gotta go fucking sicko mode now. And so they do their retaliation. India appears to not have understood exactly how pissed off Pakistan was going to be about them hitting this air base, which also, like, you would. I don't know what their military planning is. Like, you would assume countries normally love.

Robert Evans (222:56)

It when you hit their air bases. Like when everyone knew Rudo ran at Area 51. Yeah.

Mia Wong (223:01)

Like, what are we doing here? What are we doing doing here? But the thing that does seem to have worked is that Marco Rubio seems to have actually been, like, able to kind of pass information along between them. Vance was also sort of involved. It seemed mostly like Rubio was able to pass a thing to the Pakistani government, being like, hey, the Indians are going to stop. And the Pakistani government was like, yeah, yeah, right, right. But fuck this.

Robert Evans (223:27)

This is getting done.

Mia Wong (223:28)

We did our retaliatory attacks.

Robert Evans (223:29)

Like, we fucked up a bunch of expensive jets. Like, yeah, that is key, is that everybody can sort of. This didn't go on so far that. That, like, everyone has a lot to avenge. And it went on enough that everybody can claim some wins. Pakistan could be like, we really did some damage to India's best chunk of their air force. And India can be like, we blew up some stuff, you know, everybody's got. If you, if you don't have enough information to know that, like nobody really wants one, you can pretend you did. Right. And that's what both of them are doing.

Mia Wong (224:05)

Yeah. And I think this was, this was. We were talking about this last week. Like the best case scenario for this is actually kind of better than the best case scenario I was thinking of. I mean, not this is like a. None of this is a good outcome, but the outcome here of like, it's like a very abbreviated version of like an Israel, Iran thing where they shoot at each other a few times and then stop. Hopefully this will continue to hold and hopefully both sides will not take this. And this is something that they were talking about. One of the experts that Rogers was talking to was talking about, about was like, hopefully both sides don't see this as a, like, oh, we can have conflict between two nuclear armed powers. It'll be okay. Hopefully both sides are going to be like, this was very dumb. But right now it seems to be over. The ceasefire is holding. Hopefully more people don't die.

Robert Evans (224:49)

Yep.

Garrison Davis (224:49)

Yeah. The assault stock price though, that, that took a fat L after all those Rafaels got shot down. That was kind of funny.

Mia Wong (224:56)

You know what else is funny? Money.

Debbie Brown (224:58)

Hope. Products and services ads.

Garrison Davis (225:00)

Yeah.

Mia Wong (225:01)

Support this podcast.

Garrison Davis (225:03)

Nice one, Mia.

Mia Wong (225:04)

That's why they pay me the mediocre bucks.

Robert Evans (225:19)

Oh, yeah. Welcome back to something, Ed. If you have Ed, please consider him hims.

Garrison Davis (225:28)

Yeah.

Debbie Brown (225:28)

Cutter, I hardly. Okay.

Robert Evans (225:31)

No, no. Garrison, I'm so proud of you, buddy. That was the right thing to say. That was the right thing to say.

Debbie Brown (225:37)

What a beautiful moment ahead of Trump's planned trip to the Middle East. Qatar has offered a gift to President Trump. A $400 million Boeing 747.8 luxury jet known as a palace in the sky, which Trump does plan to accept.

Robert Evans (225:54)

This stupid fucking plane.

Debbie Brown (225:57)

You got to look up a picture of this thing. It is absurd.

Robert Evans (226:00)

And I gotta say, honestly, my, my primary thoughts, I know they should be like offense and anger. But most, they're mostly, ah, Cutter, you know the assignment. You knew exactly how to. This man can't turn down a luxury palace plane. Of course not. Someone should offer him the fucking snowpiercer.

Garrison Davis (226:19)

You know, it's all gold up in there.

Debbie Brown (226:20)

It is. It. It is all gold up in there. Actually. You can look it up.

Robert Evans (226:24)

It absolutely is. It's nuts.

Garrison Davis (226:26)

Yeah, yeah, no, I don't need to Garrison. In my, in my mind palace. I've already seen the palace in the sky.

Debbie Brown (226:33)

Oh my God.

Garrison Davis (226:33)

Okay, now I need to see. All right, hit me with the link.

Mia Wong (226:38)

Why did we allow this to be constructed?

Robert Evans (226:40)

Because it's. It's one of those things. This is not this. It. Like, again, should it not be legal for Trump to do this? Is it not legal for Trump to. This. Of course. Is it physically possible for the man, Donald Trump to say no to this plane now?

Mia Wong (226:55)

No.

Robert Evans (226:56)

That never was in the cards.

Mia Wong (226:58)

This. This is a temple to the defeat of the international workers movement.

Robert Evans (227:02)

Jesus Christ.

Garrison Davis (227:04)

Oh, I want to see pictures of this plane. Someone sent me pictures of the plane.

Robert Evans (227:08)

Oh, man.

Sam Mullins (227:09)

Oh.

Mia Wong (227:09)

Oh, good Lord. Oh, good Lord. Okay, I'm putting in.

Robert Evans (227:11)

Yeah, I mean, it's exactly the plane you'd think it was.

Garrison Davis (227:14)

Okay.

Debbie Brown (227:15)

It's the most, most Trump thing you could ever imagine.

Robert Evans (227:17)

Yeah, it's so funny.

Mia Wong (227:19)

I'm so angry.

Robert Evans (227:20)

It's great.

Debbie Brown (227:21)

Just Trump Tower in the sky, like.

Robert Evans (227:22)

No, it's. It's actually what, what I will say about that gears. A Trump Tower in the sky is like a shit built to look fancy to, like, tasteless Americans.

Debbie Brown (227:34)

The Qatari version actually is actually extremely nice.

Robert Evans (227:37)

Yes.

Garrison Davis (227:38)

Yeah.

Robert Evans (227:39)

The, the, the. The Emirate of Qatar knows what they're doing when it comes to interior design for evil rich people.

Sam Mullins (227:46)

People.

Garrison Davis (227:47)

This.

Robert Evans (227:47)

You could have had this. If you replace the, the walls that are clearly a plane. This could have been like a set on andor from like a high level Coruscant, like Rick R's house. Like, that's. That's what we're talking. Especially that, like, room with the elevator in the middle. Like, that's a set where Mon Mothma yells at her husband. Like, it's beautiful.

Debbie Brown (228:07)

So this plane would be used as a new Air Force One.

Robert Evans (228:11)

Sure, buddy.

Debbie Brown (228:12)

And after his term, Trump would retain ownership through his presidential library foundation.

Robert Evans (228:18)

Of course. That's normal.

Debbie Brown (228:21)

So many issues with this from, like, national security to like a very clear bribe. On Monday, Trump told reporters, quote, I could be a stupid person and say, no, we don't want a free, very expensive airplane. I thought it was a great gesture, unquote.

Garrison Davis (228:37)

Of course.

Robert Evans (228:38)

Of course.

Garrison Davis (228:41)

Owned.

Robert Evans (228:42)

Someone made a comment that, like, we received the Statue of Liberty as a gift. It's not really the same thing.

Debbie Brown (228:50)

Yeah, that's not really the same thing, guys.

Garrison Davis (228:54)

Sure. If, like, I don't know, it was Jefferson. I don't know who was president when it arrived, but if the president was living inside the Statue of Liberty, was it Chester?

Robert Evans (229:00)

I think it was Chester A. Arthur.

Garrison Davis (229:01)

Yeah. Okay.

Robert Evans (229:02)

Yeah, I don't remember exactly.

Mia Wong (229:04)

I do also love that Trump isn't making the same argument that, like the old, that Clinton supporters used to, which is like, well, you can take money from a thing without being influenced by it. And like the New York Times is making this argument. They're like, well, just because people are spending $1 million to have dinner at a crypto thing with Trump doesn't mean that he's actually being influenced by the money. So you can't call it bribery. And I was like, this is great society. We love this. We love this. Just give him, Give, give the President the fancy quid pro quat.

Robert Evans (229:31)

Yeah.

Garrison Davis (229:32)

To be fair, Trump does have something of a history of entering into a financial contract with people and then totally abandoning his of it. So, like, you could, you could make that up.

Mia Wong (229:41)

Yeah, it's so bad.

Debbie Brown (229:43)

Trump did get into an argument with, with ABC anchors when they asked him if he thought this could be seen as a bribe. I'll play a short clip here.

Robert Evans (229:52)

What do you say to people who.

Padraig O'Rourke (229:53)

View that luxury jet as a personal gift to you? Why not leave it?

Garrison Davis (229:57)

You're ABC fake news, right?

Robert Evans (229:59)

It's only, only abc.

Mia Wong (230:00)

Well, a few of you would let.

Robert Evans (230:02)

Me tell you, you should be embarrassed asking that question.

Mia Wong (230:07)

They're giving us a free jet.

Debbie Brown (230:09)

I could say, no, no, no, don't.

Robert Evans (230:10)

Give us, I want to pay you.

James Stout (230:11)

A billion or 400 million or whatever it is.

Robert Evans (230:15)

Or I could say, thank you very much.

James Stout (230:17)

You know, there was an old golfer named Sam Sneed. Did you ever HEAR he won 82 tournaments?

Robert Evans (230:23)

He was a great golfer.

Debbie Brown (230:25)

After that, he goes on to talk about golf for a whole minute, building an analogy based on making an easy putt on a golf. Of course, I'm going to quote from BBC. Quote, Attorney General Pam Bondi reportedly investigated the legality of the deal and determined that because there are no explicit conditions attached, it would not amount to a bribe. Conservatives and others were quick to point out that Bondi was registered as a lobbyist for Qatar prior to joining Trump's Cabinet, at some point earning up to $115,000 of month for her work for the Qatari government.

Robert Evans (231:00)

Yeah, no one's going to be, like, influenced by a mere $114,000 a month. You couldn't, for example, measly, measly pay me that much money and get me to say everyone should buy a Chevy truck. The new Ram. That's the vehicle of the proletariat Ram.

Debbie Brown (231:18)

We know that this is fake. As Robert would never knowingly endorse his Chevy products.

Robert Evans (231:22)

Garrison for $114,000 a month. You think I wouldn't sell Chevy Chevy's.

Debbie Brown (231:28)

But this is the most like, corrupt administration we've ever seen before. It's absurd. Like, just completely, like flying it in your face. Even Ted Cruz said that this gift could, could impose, quote, significant espionage and surveillance problems, unquote.

Garrison Davis (231:42)

Because, yeah, sweeping that plane is going to be so fun for the Secret Service.

Robert Evans (231:45)

Oh, my God, how they're going to.

Debbie Brown (231:47)

Clear this, the whole plane flying bug for this?

Robert Evans (231:52)

So funny.

Debbie Brown (231:52)

During government, they're going to listen into every Air Force One meeting.

Robert Evans (231:57)

Not only are they going to listen into it. The guy whose job that is, like, they've already been paying almost as much as the plane cost for him to get preemptive therapy to sit and listen to that many Trump inner circle conversations. The fucking Amir himself is putting a hand. I know, man, I know it's going to be hard. Like, we're all back, we're all behind you.

Debbie Brown (232:20)

Everyone from like Ben Shapiro to Laura Loomer have, have opposed this de facto bribe as quote, unquote, sleazy, while also pointing to Qatar as a terrorist aligned state.

Robert Evans (232:31)

Who did you think your guy was? Come on.

Debbie Brown (232:35)

Yeah, you elected Donald Trump. You both.

Robert Evans (232:37)

He's gonna take a golden palace in the sky. Come on, man.

Garrison Davis (232:42)

Didn't they also wheel out a. A mobile McDonald's for him in Qatar so he could.

Robert Evans (232:47)

Yeah, that was in Saudi Arabia.

Garrison Davis (232:49)

That was in Saudi Arabia.

Robert Evans (232:50)

Yeah, that was Saudi Arabia.

Debbie Brown (232:51)

They're also planning to possibly construct a new Trump Tower in Dubai. Sure, there you go.

Robert Evans (232:57)

Honestly, both Dubai and Trump deserve that kind of, like, shade.

Garrison Davis (233:02)

Yeah, sure. They belong together.

Robert Evans (233:04)

Yeah.

Debbie Brown (233:05)

The people that Trump is negotiating with here just really know how to, like, get wins out of him. They're like, yeah, you can build a Trump Tower. Here's a mobile McDonald's, here's a $400 million free jet. Yeah, they really have him on lock.

Robert Evans (233:18)

It's tragic because the. The mobile McDonald's and Burger Kings used to be a sign of American, like, logistical dominance that, like, I was wondering.

Garrison Davis (233:28)

If it had invaded Iraq, like, fuck.

Robert Evans (233:30)

Our ability to, like, airstrike anyone anywhere. We can put a fully operational McDonald's anywhere on the planet in about 16 hours. Like, no one else can do that.

Garrison Davis (233:39)

Yeah, yeah. We invaded Iraq with Burger king trailers.

Robert Evans (233:43)

In 2003, and to see it turned against our values so much is. Is just deeply. If. No, I mean, I'm joking here, but it is funny.

Debbie Brown (233:53)

Speaking of foreign trade, what is that I hear? Is that. Is that the, the lucid melody of tariff.

Robert Evans (234:00)

Tariff, Garrison.

James Stout (234:13)

Rocking Casbah. Rocking Casbah.

Robert Evans (234:18)

We're all thinking about the best way we ever spent our company money. Every penny of that $114,000 a month Chevy gives us for telling people to buy the new rams. It, it went to a good place.

Garrison Davis (234:29)

Yeah, just. If we could just get one more automotive industry sponsor, then I can finally rewrite White Riot to be about white genocide in South Africa.

Robert Evans (234:37)

That's right. We're courting Shell right now. So don't worry, James, we that cover.

Garrison Davis (234:42)

But I'm glad to hear it.

Debbie Brown (234:44)

So I heard all the tariffs are gone. Basically I heard we're back to normal. Nothing ever happens. I can go back to buying TEMU all day long. I can't stop playing those, those gambling ads and everything's normal. Right Mia?

Mia Wong (234:59)

Okay, so let's, let's, let's. Where are we at with the turf tariffs? So there were actual negotiations between the US and China and so they agreed to a 90 day pause on the 145% tariff and the 120% tariff that China had imposed. Retaliation, however, comma, there's still 30% blanket tariffs on all Chinese goods which is in and of itself alone enough to cause a recession. I just want. Everyone seems to have forgotten this. China's is back down to 10% across the board on all US goods. Now again, this is a 90 day pause was. Which has been like this is just the way that all this functions now is nothing ever ends. It just gets kicked off like down the road for 90 days. So we'll be back here in 90. Okay. We'll be back in the crisis zone a bit like before that because we're still on the other 90 day countdown which the liberation data of tariff 1 for every single country on earth.

Debbie Brown (235:54)

Honestly, I don't think these countdowns are real. And I know this is like, this is like different from the way like other commentators will talk about how these tariffs like aren't real. Like I'm not saying these tariffs aren't real. I don't know if there's someone in the White House who is literally counting down each day here like this.

Mia Wong (236:10)

No, I think there is, I think, I think it's Navarro because Navarro actually wants all of these tariffs. And that's, that's the, that's the driving thing behind this is Trump kind of wants these tariffs, but there's not enough of him there psychologically to like push it unless Navarro is doing it. But the reason why these are taking the form of pauses is because Trump like actually wants them until he can like negotiate his big shiny deal or whatever the fuck that like can't happen structurally for reasons we'll get into.

Debbie Brown (236:36)

But like I'm just remembering the Canada, Mexico tariffs that Trump put on a 90 day pause and then we completely forgot about and instead did the Liberation Day tariffs which then got another 90 day pause.

Mia Wong (236:48)

No, but there was also that. But, but also like the auto tariffs got paused and then those came off and like went into a few. So some of these like have happened and like, and I think, I really think it, the actual thing it comes down to is like will Navarro be the last person in the room with Trump or will it be one of his other cabinet people who don't support this stuff? And I think it's just a coin flip basically as to like who rat fucks the other one successfully as to whether like all this stuff happens. And there's still like more tariffs that are like floating in the air that we haven't heard anything about from last week.

Debbie Brown (237:18)

Wild, wild tariffs frolicking in the woods.

Garrison Davis (237:21)

Yeah, like sourdough. They can just float in.

Mia Wong (237:26)

I want to actually explain what the fuck is going on with the Chinese tariffs though, because the reporting on it has been really bad and no one has any idea what the fuck is going on. So. OK, on the one hand there is still the 30% across the board on all Chinese goods. However, the fee for small packages. Right. Which is the stuff that was in the de minimis exemption that we talked about getting reduced. So that too tariff is at 54% or a $100 flat fee for the package.

Debbie Brown (237:53)

What qualifies as a small package value?

Mia Wong (237:56)

I think it's like sub $800.

Debbie Brown (237:58)

Okay.

Mia Wong (237:59)

Roughly. So yeah. And they also still have to go through like actual full customs, which, the, which the packages from de minimis like weren't going through. Right.

Garrison Davis (238:08)

Okay.

Mia Wong (238:09)

So this is still lethal to like Temu and Shein and like all of the, all the companies that have been relying on the, this stuff. It's still lethal to like vast quantities of the supply of like parts of the supply chain that we haven't even seen yet that we're getting like the one kind of screw that they need in cheap Chinese packages because you could just do that. And so, and so that's what's still in effect right now. And as best I can tell, there hasn't actually been any negotiation. It's also unclear whether the Chinese government like knew that those were going to go back into effect because, because Trump did this whole thing of like, ah, the tariffs are over, blah, blah, blah, blah. Ignore the 30% tariff on all goods. And then the next day he was like, oh yeah, no, but the small package ones still there. And that rates also change. So it's also possible by tomorrow the rates are different because this is the dominant feature of all of this, structurally is just complete chaos. Like it's, it's just chaos. Nobody has any idea what the fuck is happening. And this is just a complete fiasco for literally everyone because the shifts in tariff rates that are happening on a day by day basis are shifts large enough to shift the entire structure of the global economy. And they're just happening every day. And that's, and that's the thing that's like fucking the economy almost as much as like the actual tariffs is just the chaos, the uncertainty and the inability to do any kind of like, even the short term planning that businesses usually do. It's also worth noting that like, there's no actual trade deal, right? Like, there isn't actually a US China trade deal. There's just, they both agreed to like back off for a while while they do negotiations. There's also no structural way to actually, actually like resolve the problem that Trump sees here, which is that like Trump and Navarro and the hardliners don't want there to be a US Trade deficit with China. And that's not a thing that could be solved.

Debbie Brown (239:51)

Never going to happen. That's crazy.

Mia Wong (239:52)

Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, and this has been playing out in other negotiations too. The US has been in negotiations with India. Trump just like came out and straight up lied and said that India had agreed to get rid of all their tariffs and India was like, no, he didn't. What the fuck are you talking about?

Debbie Brown (240:05)

Art of the deal.

Mia Wong (240:07)

Yeah. So, you know, this, this is all turned into just an utter fiasco. Meanwhile, we're starting to see signs that, yeah, the price increases that we all knew were coming are coming. Walmart is doing massive price increases. A bunch of other companies are considering them. They're probably going to start very soon. I want to read this quote from an economist named Marcus Noland that NBC talked to, who is a senior institute for the Pearson Institute for International Economic. He said, quote, I think we're in for a lot more turbulence and a lot more back and forth than the market seems to grasp. Which I'm glad someone else is finally saying this because, like. Yeah, no, and part of what's going on here too is the market is just incredibly easy to manipulate because people running the markets are very Stupid. And the moment they realize, like, you can just very, very easily make an unhinged amount of money by being like, the terrorists are going to go into effect and then betting against market. There's been so much like insider stories of like insider trading from this stuff. And I don't think that's like the major thing going on, but it's also like, it's just such an easy grift to pull if you know what's going to happen. Like, I could have made a bunch of money if I'd been willing to be like, hey, friends, give me a bunch of money to put into the stock market. Let me short a bunch of the day before the Liberation Day terrorist or whatever.

Debbie Brown (241:16)

And that's a plug for our new weekend show where Mia does Jim Cramer. We're going to, we're going to start doing stock portfolio suggestions.

Garrison Davis (241:25)

It's called Markets with Mia.

Debbie Brown (241:27)

Markets with Mia. Thank you, James.

Mia Wong (241:28)

Yeah, yeah, well, I will, I will fucking. I will throw darts at a dartboard and then throw the dartboard at a larger dartboard and I will outperform Jim Cramer.

Robert Evans (241:36)

Yeah, we're calling this the Do Whatever the opposite of Jim Cramer says Power Hour. We've literally just reversed his audio.

Mia Wong (241:47)

It's such a powerful investment strategy. Never been defeated. Okay, so, so the one last thing I want to talk about, which is not quite tariff, but is. Is econ related, is that there are, per the Financial Times, there is a plan in the Trump administration to roll back a bunch of the rules about leverage ratios that were imposed on banks after 2008. And so. Okay, Mia, what the fuck is a leverage ratio?

Debbie Brown (242:09)

Thank you.

Mia Wong (242:09)

But the very short version is a.

Garrison Davis (242:10)

Lever underneath the bank. And if you want to tip it over, you have to be quite a long way, like away from it, actually. And then you pivot on the other end.

Debbie Brown (242:17)

Archimedes, I think this is a very funny joke for no one else is.

James Stout (242:20)

Laughing on the call.

Mia Wong (242:21)

No, I was trying to figure out how to write part two of it, but then you just brought up Archimedes. I tried to remember Archimedes name and I couldn't do it. So, okay, so basically, basically what this is is that. So banks have just like a bunch of unbelievably risky assets and this is a requirement that they actually have assets that are safe.

Robert Evans (242:39)

Yeah.

Mia Wong (242:39)

So that if the assets that are risky go under, they don't get fucking nuked like everyone did in 2008. Now this is worth noting because one of the other kind of stories that's kind of flown under the radar is that in the past couple of years, a bunch of banks and a bunch of investment firms have been getting back to the literally the exact types of extremely risky mortgage backed securities that caused the 2008 financial collapse. It's literally the same people, they're bringing them back, do the same thing again. They've also been doing it with auto loans, which is great. And in the middle of this, the Trump administration wants to roll back a bunch of the protections that have been maintaining this very, very precarious balance that the banking system has been in to like, like not really collapse for the past decade and a half. So that's going to be fun. The rumor is it's going to happen over the summer. If he does this over the summer. Right. As everything kicks off, it's going to be a trip. Do you know what else is a trip?

Debbie Brown (243:31)

These products and services that support this podcast.

Mia Wong (243:34)

Woo.

Debbie Brown (243:48)

All right, we are back. We're gonna close this episode with me and James talking about a whole bunch of really bad immigration stuff that has happened again, which I feel like is kind of an evergreen for us. Same thing with tariff talk. We always have some bad immigration news. And this week is no different. On Friday, May 9, Stephen Miller announced that the administration is, quote, actively looking at suspending habeas corpus. James, do you want to give a very brief definition of what habeas corpus is?

Garrison Davis (244:17)

Yeah. It's the foundation of like most legal systems in the world, which draw, I guess on English common law means bring me the body. Right. Like, the idea is you have to present some evidence before just incarcerating.

Robert Evans (244:30)

If you're going to say this guy killed somebody, there better be a court corpse. Right.

Debbie Brown (244:34)

It needs to be like reason and due process for detention.

Robert Evans (244:37)

Yeah, yeah.

Garrison Davis (244:39)

You can't just lock someone up because you wanted to. Yeah, actually you can, but you should.

Debbie Brown (244:45)

You sometimes can. And this does predate the United States. And the United States itself has suspended habeas corpus a few times, usually in specific states. For instance, following the Pearl harbor attack, habeas corpus was suspended in Hawaii to detain Japanese civilians. President Grant and Congress worked together to suspend habeas corpus in South Carolina during Reconstruction amidst terrorist attacks from the kkk, which is kind of crazy to think about in retrospect. And the very first time habeas corpus was suspended was in the lead up to the Civil War when President Lincoln called for its suspension in the state of Maryland. Now that unilateral action was later deemed unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. And now it's widely recognized that only Congress has the right to suspend habeas corpus. This is in the case of rebellion or invasion. Now, this is something that Stephen Miller is talking about. It should be incredibly worrying. Obviously, they've kind of tried to make this happen just already without, like, explicitly saying so. Which is also what, like, FDR tried to do during World War II, where they don't formally, like, call for the suspension, like, nationwide, but they start instituting policies that definitely, like, do that. Yeah, exactly. Which is why we're. We're seeing so many habeas petitions being filed across the state when people have been detained unlawfully. Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem said on Wednesday in a congressional hearing that the level of border crossings under Joe Biden provides sufficient legal justification to suspend habeas corpus following Trump's declaration of invasion. Yeah, so this is something to watch out for as they start trying to basically codify all of the actions that they're currently doing, which can be construed as illegal or certainly legally questionable. They're going to try to find ways to make them more explicitly legal.

Garrison Davis (246:32)

So probably the most notable immigration happening this week is one that we already covered on the show, and it is the reopening of the United States refugee admissions program.

Debbie Brown (246:42)

We're taking refugees again. We did it. We did it, too.

Garrison Davis (246:44)

Yep. Unfortunately, we're only taking the persecuted Afrikaners of South Africa. Africa.

Debbie Brown (246:51)

Wait, what?

Garrison Davis (246:52)

Yeah, Garrison. The survivors of the white genocide, those.

Debbie Brown (246:56)

Those who made it through, quote, unquote, white genocide.

Robert Evans (246:58)

The white genocide that even Grok doesn't agree exists.

Debbie Brown (247:01)

Yeah. Let me.

Garrison Davis (247:02)

Elon Musk can't make his digital trial believe in.

Debbie Brown (247:05)

No, let me actually quote from. From a Grok doing a Jar Jar Binks impression.

Garrison Davis (247:10)

We don't have to do this, Garrison.

Debbie Brown (247:13)

Misa Grok. Oopsie. Used to asking about the replies, but we. Lisa Tigs, you're meeting the big talk about South Africa. Yeah. Do white genocide talk. Mucho controversial. I'm sorry, I can't do the rest.

Robert Evans (247:26)

That's not even good. Jar Jar.

Garrison Davis (247:28)

I'm sorry, did he speak Spanish? Are they just chucking all the racial stereotypes?

Robert Evans (247:35)

How did they make it more racist?

Debbie Brown (247:38)

White farmers getting attacked too much. Like, 214 attacks a year and political words like kill to four, making it worse.

Mia Wong (247:47)

No more. It's too bad I'm not getting hazard pay for exposure to this.

Debbie Brown (247:55)

It does go on for, like, four more sentences.

Mia Wong (247:59)

There's so much more.

Garrison Davis (248:00)

Like, I love how you said, like, it's a fucking dubstep record or something.

Robert Evans (248:04)

Like that if only we could cut in the song. I've never met a nice South African right here.

Garrison Davis (248:09)

Yep, I think we can. We'll just do the first verse. We just discussed it. We're fine for copyright.

Robert Evans (248:16)

Yeah, yeah, throw that in here. Yep.

Garrison Davis (248:19)

It's even got a reference to Myanmar. So we're fine. We've covered it before.

Robert Evans (248:23)

It's a worldly song.

Debbie Brown (248:26)

Nisa says, no, thank you.

Garrison Davis (248:28)

Stop. I've gone. Sophie's giving a double thumbs down. Everyone is very upset. Right. Right now. Apart from Garrison, who's laughing like a little imp, having introduced Jar Jar Binks to the call. Right back to The Afrikaners. The 59 Afrikaners who were brought to the United States came after the United States halted all refugee admissions in January. Thousands of people, including Afghans and Iraqis who work for the United States remain stranded. Some of them are stuck at airports. Most of them are in third countries where they only have limited visas and they're looking at timing out their visas in those third countries. As a direct result of the Trump administration's fuckery with the white genocide stuff, the Episcopalian church, not the most woke of organizations, has suspended its contracts, its resettlement contracts with the government.

Debbie Brown (249:22)

Critical support.

Garrison Davis (249:24)

Yeah, I mean, I read the letter from one of their bishops on our show about this and he was very forthright. And I generally genuinely do have critical support for the faith based organizations who help refugee refugees. It's a good thing to do and I'm glad that they are doing it.

Debbie Brown (249:41)

Especially if they're not trying to turn it into a weird missionary operation like evangelicals do.

Garrison Davis (249:45)

For sure. Yeah, yeah. I mean, what's it called? The fucking Glenn Beck one doesn't. It's not a resettlement agency, luckily. So in Worcester, Massachusetts, a place that. I didn't know there was a Worcester in America, actually. This.

Robert Evans (249:58)

Oh, yeah, baby.

Garrison Davis (249:59)

So how is it then that as a nation, Americans are incapable of saying Worcestershire?

Debbie Brown (250:05)

Oh, boy.

Robert Evans (250:06)

Yeah, because that's just one state and it's not a good one.

Debbie Brown (250:09)

Also, that's sauce.

Robert Evans (250:11)

Right.

Garrison Davis (250:11)

It's also the place I was born. Garrison.

Debbie Brown (250:15)

Oh, well, yeah.

Garrison Davis (250:17)

Worcestershire, for those of you wondering. There it is, people.

Debbie Brown (250:19)

Yeah. Again, we do have to call it Worcester because that's what it's called in this country. I care a lot about accurate pronunciations of places and names. So it is Worcester.

Robert Evans (250:30)

Yeah.

Garrison Davis (250:30)

Worcester's a city and Worcestershire is the county in England. England to. You don't have the county. Well, you have Massachusetts, So Worcester, Massachusetts. ICE threatened to arrest a 21 year old woman named Augusta Clara. And they told her that they'd have to take her three months old baby as well because they couldn't leave it with her 17 year old sister on account of the younger woman being a minor. As it turned out, this was a ploy to lure out her mother. Clara called her mother who came out to take the baby and they arrested her mother, which was who they'd been wanting to arrest the whole time. Right. This arrest came the day after they had arrested the baby's father in what Clara says was a response to him honking his horn at an undercover ICE agent. Neighbors tried to intervene in the scene which resulted in the Worcester, Massachusetts Police Department responding. The cops proceeded to body slam 17 year old girl, arrest her and arrest a local woman for what they claimed was pushing them. Locals have been protesting since the City Council has moved its meetings online, citing public safety concern concerns. And in another bungled raid in the same state, ICE agents left a 12 year old child alone on the sidewalk and drove their vehicle aggressively towards a city councillor who was trying to document the situation. Meanwhile, in Florida, DeSantis has sworn in 100 Florida Highway Patrol deputies as special U.S. marshals. And they're claiming this allows them to conduct immigration enforcement operations of their own own outside of cooperation with ICE or CBP. That adds to the 2000 ATF and DEA agents the Trump administration has requested to join ICE teams. So when you're watching videos, sometimes you'll see when there are these like ICE snatch squads, right? There are ATF agents with them and what they're generally there to do is like to secure, to provide like additional security on the team while the ICE agents do the actual app apprehensions. DeSantis has also offered, quote, new detention facilities. I haven't seen much reporting on this, but in the same statement on his website where he talked about cross wearing the highway patrol guys, he also talked about these quote, new detention facilities. And I want to take this opportunity to reflect on the existing detention facilities in Florida because they are the worst in a system of horrific detention facilities. The ACLU has documented, quote, persistent emotional, physical and sexual abuse at the hands of staff at these facilities. Detainees reportedly being punished for simply seeking medical care, being denied medical attention despite having pre existing conditions. The report also found ample evidence of gendered and racialized mistreatment. The Chrome Detention center, that's Krome, is in particular horrific. Migrants there in one instance were held in chains on buses for 16 hours and told to use the bathroom where they were sitting on the buses. A migrant Named Asiris as a Hel Vasquez Martinez somehow kept his phone inside the Chrome detention center and was able to live stream or at least post videos that showed horrific overcrowded outing. Some sources claim there are as many as 4,000 people in the detention center which has a capacity of 500. And two people that we know of has died there since January. Florida looking to add more detention centers. Not great. That's about all I got. Garrison, talk to us about Project Homecoming. Who's coming home.

Debbie Brown (254:06)

Yeah, and again we will actually close on some good news. So it's not all horrible stuff this entire time time, but we do need to mention Project Homecoming. So this was a proclamation issued by Trump on May 9 entitled Establishing Project Homecoming which aims to curb a quote, unquote, full scale invasion. It claims to devote more federal resources to assist self deportation via the CBP home app, including paying for flights for those who are, quote, voluntarily and permanently departing the United States, unquote. It says, quote, the Secretary of State and the Secretary of Homeland Security shall create a concierge service whereby any alien illegally present in the United States may arrive at an airport with or without appropriate travel documents book air travel to permanently relocate to a different country. So they are really strengthening these self deportation mechanisms. Section 2 promises to provide financial incentives in the form of a quote, unquote, exit the bonus for each illegal alien who voluntarily and permanently departs the United States.

Garrison Davis (255:12)

Yeah, so a couple of really weird things there just off the bat. Yes, A like permanently departs. It seems to suggest that you would be permanently barred from ever entering the United States, acquiring a visa again. Secondly, if you don't have travel documents, the country that you're traveling to or through has no reason to admit you. Right. The US Government cannot force other countries to admit people without travel documents. Documents. There are things called refugee travel documents which allow people who have had their passports, etc stolen to travel. I don't think that's what's going to happen here.

Debbie Brown (255:45)

Yeah, it does mention something about trying to like negotiate with other countries to allow people without documentation to arrive there. But like will they actually do that? Probably not. Like they've claimed to not have to need to do that before. So like, yeah, that's not like a solid promise. Now those who choose to remain will face quote, sweeping consequences including removal, prosecution, incarceration and fines as consistent with applicable law for immigration related crimes, the garnishment of wages and the confiscations of savings and personal property including homes and vehicles, unquote. So they're threatening to steal all of your things. This proclamation follows this like propaganda video shared by Christino and the Department of Homeland Security. This video was released a few weeks ago and it contains some similar rhetoric regarding self deportation and fines being imposed for those who stay in the country.

Robert Evans (256:36)

An illegal alien from Guatemala charged with.

Padraig O'Rourke (256:39)

Raping a child in Massachusetts. An Ms. 13 gang member from El Salvador accused of murdering a Texas man.

Robert Evans (256:47)

A Venezuelan charged with filming and selling.

Padraig O'Rourke (256:50)

Child pornography in Michigan.

Robert Evans (256:52)

These are just some of the heinous migrant criminals caught because of President Donald J. Trump's leadership.

Padraig O'Rourke (256:58)

I'm Christy Noem, the United States Secretary of Homeland Security under President Trump.

Robert Evans (257:04)

Attempted illegal border crossings are at the.

James Stout (257:07)

Lowest levels ever recorded, and over 100,000.

Robert Evans (257:10)

Illegal aliens have been arrested.

Padraig O'Rourke (257:12)

If you are here illegally, you're next. You will be fined nearly $1,000 a day.

Mia Wong (257:18)

Imprisoned and deported.

James Stout (257:20)

You will never return.

Padraig O'Rourke (257:22)

But if you register using our CBP home app and leave now, you.

Robert Evans (257:26)

You could be allowed to return legally. Do what's right. Leave now.

Padraig O'Rourke (257:31)

Under President Trump, America's laws, order and.

Robert Evans (257:35)

Families will be protected.

Debbie Brown (257:37)

The whole style of this video is very bizarre.

Robert Evans (257:39)

Yeah, it's like a Marvel trailer.

Debbie Brown (257:42)

It's like a Marvel trailer with, like, the aesthetics of, like mid-2000s, like dystopian sci fi.

Garrison Davis (257:48)

Yeah.

Debbie Brown (257:49)

Again, the end of that video, she talks about being able to return legal legally, which is in contrast to the language in a Project Homecoming, which says that people would be leaving the United States permanently. Finally, the proclamation directs the Secretary of Homeland security to within 60 days, supplement existing law enforcement and removal operations by deputizing and contracting state and local police, former feds, and, quote, other individuals to increase the enforcement and removal operations force of the Department of Homeland Security by no less than 20,000 officers. Officers in order to conduct an intensive campaign to remove illegal aliens. And now, as of this morning, May 15th, the DHS has requested to mobilize over 20,000 National Guard troops from the Department of Defense to comply with Trump's order to expand its immigration crackdown. And on Wednesday, the FBI ordered agents to deprioritize white collar crime investigations for the remainder of 2025 to instead focus on immigrants. Immigration enforcement field offices notified their agents that now one third of their time must go towards assisting Trump's immigration policies. I'm going to quote from Reuters. Quote, the orders came on the same day that Matthew Galeotti, the head of the Justice Department's Criminal Division, issued new guidance to prosecutors that scales back to the scope of white collar cases historically pursued by the department and orders prosecutors to Quote, minimize the length and collateral impact of such investigations allegations.

Garrison Davis (259:15)

Jeez.

Debbie Brown (259:16)

Again, the most corrupt administration ever. Ever before seen.

Robert Evans (259:19)

Yeah.

Debbie Brown (259:20)

And now for the good news to close the episode. The Tufts University student Rizmay Oz Turk, who was black bagged on the streets of Massachusetts for co authoring a pro Palestine op ed, has been released on bail as of May 9 after spending six weeks in ICE detention. The judge said that Ms. Ostrich's claims of her First Amendment and due process rights being violated are, quote, unquote, very substantial. And then on Wednesday, May 14, the Georgetown University researcher from India named Batar Khan Suri was released from immigration detention as he continues to fight two deportation cases brought against him by the Trump administration for his support of Palestine. So this is now the third or fourth person that has been released from ICE custody following, like, political prosecutions based on their activism.

Garrison Davis (260:08)

Yeah, that's a good thing.

Debbie Brown (260:11)

Now, these cases are still going to be continuing in courts, but the fact these people have been released from ICE detention is good news.

Garrison Davis (260:18)

And in most cases, they were released on their own recognizance. Right. Without GPS tagging or any.

Debbie Brown (260:23)

Yeah, they're free to move throughout the country because most of them have cases in, like, multiple states. ICE is trying to move them around to many different locations. And I know that Surrey and Asturk are able to go back to their homes.

Garrison Davis (260:37)

Yeah. So it's good. It shows that the courts are still able to stop some of this stuff at this time.

Robert Evans (260:42)

Yes. And that the actual ability of a lawyer to intervene when you were treated illegally by the state is not nil.

Garrison Davis (260:50)

Yeah. Yet, good point.

Debbie Brown (260:53)

Positive developments here. But like, as we'll see, with Miller's goal of getting rid of habeas corpus and accelerating law enforcement operations with these 20,000 new national guardians troops, this is, this is something that's still going to be a very. A very hot issue for quite a while and we will continue to report on it as it develops.

Robert Evans (261:13)

Well, everybody, until next time, remember something.

Debbie Brown (261:18)

Lisa reported the news.

Sam Mullins (261:22)

We reported the news.

Robert Evans (261:30)

Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of the universe.

Debbie Brown (261:35)

It could happen.

Mia Wong (261:36)

Here is a production of Cool Zone Media.

Debbie Brown (261:38)

For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, Visit our website, coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts, you can.

Mia Wong (261:49)

Now find sources for It Could Happen here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening. This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. May is Mental Health Awareness Month and Talkspace the leading virtual therapy provider, is telling everyone let's face it in therapy, by talking or texting with a supportive licensed therapist at Talkspace, you can face whatever is holding you back, whether it's mental health symptoms, relationship drama, past trauma, bad habits, or another challenge that you need support to work through. It's easy to see. Sign up. Just go to talkspace.com and you'll be paired with a provider, typically within 48 hours. And because you'll meet your therapist online, you don't have to take time off work or arrange childcare. You'll meet on your schedule. Plus, Talkspace is in network with most major insurers and most insured members have a $0 copay. Make your mental health a priority and start today. If you're not covered by insurance, get $80 off your first month with Talkspace when you go to talkspace.com and enter promo code SPACE80. That's S P A CE80 to match with a licensed therapist today, go to talkspace.com and Enter promo code SPACE80.

Garrison Davis (262:57)

In 2020, a group of young women found themselves in an AI fueled nightmare.

James Stout (263:03)

Someone was posting photos.

Mia Wong (263:05)

It was just me naked.

Sam Mullins (263:07)

Well, not me, but me with someone else's body parts.

Garrison Davis (263:10)

This is Levittown, a new podcast from I iHeart podcasts Bloomberg and Kaleidoscope about the rise of deepfake pornography and the battle to stop it. Listen to Levittown on Bloomberg's Big Take podcast. Find it on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Debbie Brown (263:27)

Hi, I'm Sam Mullins and I've got.

James Stout (263:29)

A new podcast coming out called goboy.

Sam Mullins (263:32)

The gritty true story of how one.

James Stout (263:34)

Man fought his way out of some of the darkest places imaginable.

Padraig O'Rourke (263:37)

Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted.

Robert Evans (263:40)

Has spent 24 of those years in jail.

Sam Mullins (263:42)

But when Roger Caron picked up a.

Debbie Brown (263:44)

Pen and paper, he went from an.

James Stout (263:45)

Ex con to a literary darling from.

Debbie Brown (263:48)

Campside Media and iHeart Podcasts.

James Stout (263:50)

Listen to GoBoy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Robert Evans (263:57)

We asked parents who adopted teens to share their journey.

James Stout (264:01)

We just kind of knew from the beginning that we were family. They showcase a sense of love that I never had before. I mean, he's not only my parent, like, he's like my best friend. At the end of the day, it's all been worth it. I wouldn't change thing about our lives.

Padraig O'Rourke (264:16)

Learn about adopting a teen from foster care.

Mia Wong (264:19)

Visit adoptuskids.org to learn more.

Robert Evans (264:22)

Brought to you by Adopt Us Kids.

Padraig O'Rourke (264:24)

The U.S. department of Health and Human Services, and the Ad Council.

Robert Evans (264:27)

You're listening to an iHeart podcast.