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Host
You're listening to an iHeart podcast.
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This podcast is supported by Talkspace.
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Listener 1
When my husband came home from his.
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Military deployment, readjusting was hard for all of us.
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Listener 3
Thankfully, I found Talkspace.
- [00:17]
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Talkspace provides professional support from licensed therapists and psychiatric providers online. Military members, veterans and their dependents ages 13 and older can get fast access to providers, all from the privacy of their computers or smartphones.
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I just answered a few questions online.
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Listener 1
And Talkspace matched me with a therapist.
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We meet when it's convenient for me.
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And I can message her anytime.
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It was so easy to set up.
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Therapy was going so well, my husband and I started seeing a couple's therapist through Talkspace too.
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Talkspace works with most major insurers, including Tricare. Match with a licensed therapist today@talkspace.com military go to talkspace.com military to get started today.
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Listener 4
That's talkspace.com military I'm Jake Hanrahan, journalist and documentary filmmaker. Away Days is my new project reporting on countercultures on the fringes of society all across the world. Live from the underground, you'll discover no rules fighting, Japanese street racing, Brazilian favela life, and much more. All real, completely uncensored. Listen to the Away Days podcast reporting.
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Host
From the underbelly on the iHeartRadio app.
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Listener 4
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:35]
Listener 5
I want you to ask yourself right now, how am I actually doing? Because it's a question that we rarely ask ourselves. All of May is actually Mental Health Awareness Month and on the psychology of your 20s, we are taking a vulnerable look at why mental health is so hard to talk about. Prepare for our conversations to go deep.
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Listener 4
I spent the majority of my teenage.
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Listener 6
Years and my twenties just feeling absolutely terrified.
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Listener 5
So this Mental Health Awareness Month, open the free iHeartRadio app, search the psychology of your 20s and listen now.
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Listener 2
It started with a TikTok.
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Host
I didn't find out about her death.
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Listener 4
Until I saw it on TikTok and.
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Listener 1
It ended in a murder trial.
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Listener 2
The defendant committed a first degree murder.
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Advertiser
When he murdered Daisy Dillotle.
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Listener 2
I'm Jen Swan.
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Listener 5
I'm the writer and host of My Friend Daisy.
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Listener 2
Binge the series in its entirety on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever.
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Advertiser
You get your podcasts.
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Listener 1
Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode of the week that just happened is here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week. There's going to be nothing new here for you, but you can make your own decisions.
- [03:02]
Host
Hello and welcome to Ikrapen. Hail. This may be my final episode on Latin American anarchism. That is. We've covered Peru, Chile, Brazil, Argentina, Paraguay, Uruguay, the many countries of Central America, the former countries of Gran Colombia and the Hispanophone Islands, the Caribbean. Now we're finally getting to the big one, Mexico. And I say we because I'm here with Garrison Davis.
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Listener 2
Hello. This is, this has been, it's gotta be like a year long series now.
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Host
Right at this point. Yeah, it's been going on for some time with breaks in between and everything.
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Listener 2
I'm very, very excited.
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Host
Yeah. To introduce myself real quick, I'm Andrew Sage. You can find me on YouTube @Andrewism. And be sure to check out the show notes for all the references, including Angel Capuleti's Anarchism in Latin America, which was an indispensable resource for the entirety of this project. Without further ado, Vavanos, we have a lot to cover. Mexico is a massive and storied country, so I can only really give you a gist of its pre colonial and colonial history. For the necessary context, we have to start thousands of years before the name Mexico or Mexico even existed. Of course, according to the Encyclopedia Britannica, the land we now call Mexico was home to some of the world's most unique ancient civilizations. First came the Olmecs, often called the mother culture of Mesoamerica, known for their colossal stoneheads and influence on later cultures. Then the Maya, with their dazzling cities, mathematics and calendars. And eventually the Aztecs, who built the grand empire, settled on Tenochtitlan, which is now Mexico City. Unfortunately, we can't spend much time on this rich history. We must progress to the time of European contact. In 1519, everything changed. Spanish Conquistro Hernan Cortes arrived and within just two years, the mighty Aztec empire fell. Disease alliances with native enemies of the Aztecs. Technological advantages and brutal warfare aided the Spaniards in overthrowing a civil of millions. What followed was three centuries of colonial rule under New Spain, marked by extraction, Catholic conversion and the mixing, often violently, of indigenous European and African peoples. By the early 1800s, the winds of independence were finally blowing. A Catholic priest named Miguel Hidalgo sparked the fight with a cry for freedom in 1810. Specifically, he sought the end of rule by Spanish peninsulars, which are the people who came from Spain and ruled over Mexico. He called for the equality of races and he called for the redistribution of land, as Angel Cappelletti put it. In Anarchism in Latin America, Hidalgo proposed to abolish, even if by gentle and gradual means, what he called in almost Proudhonian terms, the horrible right of territorial property, perpetual, hereditary and exclusive. This whole land topic is gonna come up a lot in the history. By the way, you may be familiar with the phrase land and freedom, tierra y libertad, that comes from Mexico. Anyway, it took more than a decade of war, but by 1821 Mexico had finally broken free from Spain. Freedom, though, didn't mean stability. The 19th century saw emperors come and go. Cause there was actually a time when Mexico was a monarchy. Foreign invasions by the United States via the Manifest Destiny and Napoleon's France via monarchical Latin League and internal power struggles. The Zapotec President Benito Juarez, who from 1864 to 1867 had resisted foreign occupation by Napoleon's Emperor Maximilian and fought for constitutional reform, sought to stabilise, secularise and modernise the country. In the mid-1800s, figures like Juarez led a sweeping movement against the old powers of Mexico, the Catholic Church and the military, which had long dominated both land and politics. To the Leyes de Reforma they seized church property, secularised education and promised a new era of rights and equality. But there was a catch, because to weaken the Church, the liberals sold off its land, not to the peasants or indigenous communities who had worked on it for generations, but to wealthy buyers, ejidos. The communal lands of indigenous peoples were privatised under this liberal banner of freedom and progress. They created a new class of landlords and pushed rural people deeper into poverty. Benito Juarez died, but his legacy lived on with those reforms to cement the separation of church and state, freedom of religion, the prohibition of forced labour and so on. But following him came The Porfiriato, a 30 year long dictatorship under the Mixtec President Porfirio Diaz, who continued the modernisation of the country, but also deepened its long standing inequalities. Porfirio Diaz surrounded himself with intellectuals known as the Scientificos. They were positivists, as in adherents of the positivist school of philosophy which advocated for rational planning and economic development as a path to social progress. His slogan was pan opalo, the bread or the stick and reflected the policy of rewarding compliance with prosperity while punishing dissent with severe consequences. The liberty, order and progress equation sacrificed liberty, as the Mexican people were expected to trade freedom for the benefit of these policies. Workers ended up facing low wages, long hours and of course lacked rights, while estate labourers were landless and under the arbitrary rule of mayordomos, education was largely restricted to elites in major cities. Groups like the Yaqui Indians were forcibly relocated as cheap labour to plantations. Governors, though supposedly elected, were effectively presidential appointees, monitored by jefeus politicos who intervened in local affairs. The Rurales, an elite constabulary, maintained order but often disregarded due process, which fostered a whole reign of terror in the rural areas. Diaz's popularity eventually waned as prosperity was monopolised by a small, often foreign elite. This elite emulated European customs, which created a stark divide with the growing proletariat and middle classes. By the second half of the 19th century, Mexico was caught in a contradiction. A state that promised emancipation through property rights while dispossessing the very people it claimed to free. The liberal project had failed them, and in its failure, space opened for deeper critiques of property, power, and the state itself. A younger generation began questioning the system, and with this rising criticism came rising repression, which set the stage for the Mexican Revolution of 1910.
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Listener 2
This whole era of like the, of like the turn of the millennia and the start of the 20th century has like, so much of this same stuff happening all, all over the world. Like, that's kind of one of the biggest trends that we've been able to see throughout your Latin American anarchism series is like, how, how much they all mirror each other and like how much of like a global movements used to exist. Like, not, not in like a organized fashion, but like there's like some like, other force that is, that is like, driving these like, global trends of like, revolt and revolution. Yeah, and like, we see this a lot in like the. Yeah, like the 1910-1920 time period. I mean, even just in Latin America.
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Host
Absolutely. I also think, of course, it's really easy to notice these trends and notice these tides of history in retrospect, you know, when you're submerged in it, it's just like, you know, all these conversations and stuff are happening for sure, all these events and stuff happening around you, but it's only by looking in the past you could say, oh, wow, this is like a global pattern. You know, so I'm always curious to see, like, when we look back, I mean, the 2010s already over, the narratives around it are still formulated. Right. We're still in the midst of the 1920s, not 1920s, the 2000s. So, you know, the narratives around it will still be developing all now, but we're already halfway through and I'm sure people have already seen certain trends that are going to make for some excellent retrospective commentary.
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Listener 2
Definitely. Yeah. Like the past 10 years we've seen this like global far right power grab and this like rebirth of right wing populism sweeping a whole bunch of neoliberal democracies like you, like post 90s, post war on terror, post end of history stuff where you see like the full extent of like the Clinton, Reagan, Thatcher economics completely, completely crumble with far right populism, like taking, taking over the reins of most popular consciousness.
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Host
Yeah.
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Listener 2
To the point where even like the more like liberal parties are being quote unquote forced to adopt like similar rhetoric looking at like, like, like the Labour party in the UK and here in the States. How, how much like the Democratic Party last year like completely caved on like far right populist talking points on immigration and stuff.
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Host
Exactly, exactly. I think part of it as well is a failure to advance a positive direction and a positive program.
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Listener 2
Yeah.
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Host
You know, when we allow the terms of discourse, the arena of discussion to be dictated by the right, when we simply react to what they are saying, when we simply respond to their policies and their efforts, you know, we may slow down the progress of their goals, but ultimately as long as we are engaged in dialogue with their goals, they are slowly inching their goals closer and closer to reality.
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Listener 2
Yeah, yeah. That is certainly the trend that, that I've been seeing the past 10 years and I'm sure many people have.
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Host
Yeah. I mean the Overton window is pretty much entirely dictated by what they decide. You know, I think I've mentioned this before. The right decided they wanted to talk about critical race theory, and then critical race theory became the center of conversation. The right decided they wanted to target dei gender ideology.
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Listener 1
Right.
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Host
Yeah. And then that becomes the whole thing, the whole center of discussion. They're not putting forward the policies that are going to hurt pretty much everybody as the center of their policy. That's more like an aside thing. When they give themselves, you know, salary raises and they cut taxes on the rich, that's not the center of their political messaging. Center. The political messaging is, you know, various culture related issues that they can use to rally their base. But it's nothing that's actually benefiting people, you know, and instead of circumventing that effort to dictate the course of conversation, dictate our own conversations instead. We're just kind of following along the tail. But that's a bit outside the scope of this. That's a bit of a digression here before we get to the point of the Mexican Revolution. Though we should really take a look at the slow and steady development of radical ideas in Mexico during the 19th century. You see, indigenous resistance persisted throughout Mexico's history through often quiet revolt, acts of non cooperation that would steadily ensure that Spain could never fully establish its dominion. Even after independence, the colonial structure lived on in the haciendas, the church and the state. So the indigenous communities would continue to resist, sometimes in profoundly anti authoritarian ways. By the 19th century, and this history is courtesy Angel Cabineti's Anarchism in Latin America. As I mentioned, in 1861aman arrived in Mexico with a very distinct name. He was Protino Constantino Ruricanati. He was a Greek immigrant, radicalized by the revolutions in Europe and steeped in the works of Fourier, who was a utopian socialist and Pron, who was an anarchist. The first anarchist, he had fled the counter revolutionary tide crashing over the continent with a mission. Rurikonati believed Mexico, with its long standing indigenous traditions of communal landholding and mutual aid, was the perfect place to plant the seeds of a new utopian society. And in a lot of ways he was right. You know, he saw in the Egidro system the indigenous Kunal lanterna, a living echo of the kind of society utopians in Europe could only dream of. Where the liberal elite saw backwardness, Rudyard Genate saw potential. His aim wasn't to civilize these communities, but to learn from them and help them protect their autonomy from the encroaching state through political philosophy and praxis. He seems to be a very interesting fellow, by the way. I mean, he apparently spoke seven languages, he practiced medicine by day and philosophy by night. He was a Christian, but not anything like the Christians that dominated Mexico at the time. Because, as Angel Capelletti puts it, for him, the essence of Christianity is charity, that is love for all as it is taught in the Gospels. And that essence is the moral foundation of socialism and revolution as well. Pure Christianity, he wrote, is the religion that will regenerate the world when people finally come to understand the power of its basic principles, liberty, equality and fraternity. But it is Christianity without dogma, like St. Simon's and without priesthood, liturgy or hierarchical organization. The model for which he finds the life of Jesus and his earliest followers, primitive Christianity is authentic Christianity, but has been entirely degraded by the Catholic and Protestant churches and has nothing to do with so many sects that call themselves Christian. End quote. A few months after his arrival in 1861, he published a socialist primer in Mexico that marked him as the first anarchist to put forward distinctly anarchist theory in the country. In the mid-1860s he formed a group called La Sociale with the goal of spreading the ideas of mutualism, free association and anti capitalist cooperation through books, pamphlets and education. Buru Canati and his collaborators launched worker schools aimed at promoting literacy, political consciousness and autonomy. One such school was the Escuela del Rayo y del Socialismo. The School of lightning and socialism? Hell yeah. It combined moral instruction with a deep critique of the exploitative Libra system. This was, you know, education as a rebellion, not just to read, but to recognize your exploitation and to imagine alternatives. Rudhknati thought of his socialism as the fullest expression of the French revolutionary motto of liberty, equality and fraternity, which no half measure like liberalism could ever reach. He recognized that the immediate objective must be the extinction of poverty, the distribution and increase of the commonwealth, the abolition of prostitution and the conservation of all our faculties, including the intellectual, physical and moral ones, for the transformation of humanity through science, beauty and virtue. End quote. One of those things was not like the other, as I'm sure you noticed. There was a standout inclusion there. But it makes sense, considering his background. He also saw himself as a cosmopolitan, perhaps owing in part to his unique circumstances. As a man with a Greek father, Austrian mother, a French education and Mexican home. He said we are cosmopolitans by nature, citizens of all nations and contemporaries to all the ages. The greatest and most heroic human actions belong equally to all. In other words, our country is the entire world and all men are our brothers. He also wrote that the abolition of all government in the nations which frightens you and you consider impossible and absurd, though you have never tried it, will usher in a totally new world of institutions in which the peoples of the world will live in happiness. Rory Canati was a pacifist in his approach to anarchism, which owed to his original introduction to socialism being via Charles Fourier. But eventually he came to understand the need for a class struggle. As he said, a social revolution in which many heroic victims will be sacrificed in the sacred altar to restore the justice denied to the people, end quote. His work attracted young radicals, many of whom would later play key roles in the development of Mexico's labour movement. Before he started La Social, he had initiated the first Grupo de Estudiante Socialistas, from which came figures such as Santiago Villanueval, who tried to organise the workers Movement, Hermenegildo Villavicencio and Francisco Zaracosta, a leader of rural masses. It's the core of this group that would help him to create La Social, which would educate and agitate, but also assist workers beyond mutual aid, to an fast struggle posture in defence of their interests against bosses. So basically, he took these mutual aid societies and made sure that they didn't stay mutual aid societies, that they were radicalized into resistance societies, because those sort of mutual aid associations were very common in Latin America at the time. You know, workers would create these little groups where they would try and support each other, but it's very easy to fall back on that and assume, you know, that's all you have to do, making sure that they have a radical posture, a revolutionary posture. It's important to ensure they not just rest on your laurels and expecting change to come to you. And indeed, they do not expect the change to come to them. In June 1865, these resistance societies supported the first industrial strike in Mexico. Unfortunately, it was crushed by the leader of the country at the time, Emperor Maximilian. But it was his occupation and the economic harshness of it all that fomented the spread of anarchist ideas. Another student out of Rocco's school came Julio Chavez, a precursor to the more famous Emiliano Zapata, and a fervent anarchist communist. He agitated for peasant rebellion and engaged in land expropriations, which grew in popularity wherever he was active, from the Chalco Texoco region, where he began, to all the states of Puebla and Morelia. As Capelletti recounts, the federal army finally moved against him. And defeated and imprisoned, he was executed in 1869 by order of President Benito Juarez. Before he died, Chavez cried out, long live socialism. His manifesto, which was written a few months before he died, would help introduce more masses in the Mexican movement to the idea of class struggle. And like a lightbulb over one's head, it immediately made it clear who was responsible for their suffering. Santiago Villanueva and a fellow student of Uricanati named Villavicencio worked arduously to organize the artisans and workers in Mexico City. And they definitely had the cards stacked against them. But they helped to organise an industrial strike in a textile mill in 1868, and in 1869 they established the Circulo Perletario, and in 1870, the Gran Circulo de Obreros de Mexico. And in 1871, the newspaper El Socialista. And this is when the red and black, so famously associated with anarchism, came into the Mexican workers movement. The 1870s saw struggles between radical and moderate factions among workers, proletarian presses making a name for themselves and the first convention of the General Workers Congress of the Mexican Republic in 1876 with a manifesto that indicated the growing influence of libertarian ideology in Mexico. Of course, there was a tension in that congress between the socialists and the anarchists, but water is wet. Sadly, Mexico wasn't ready for revolution. Or rather, the ruling class wasn't. While Rhoda, Canati and others sowed seeds among students and workers, the country was swinging toward reaction. As I mentioned earlier, with the rise of porfirio Diaz in 1876, any space for radical thought began to close. Diaz, the strongman of modernisation, was obsessed with order and progress. He welcomed foreign capital, built railroads across the nation and gutted the countryside to make room for exports. And he crushed dissent, while Roykonati avoided outright persecution, thanks in part to his foreign status and pacifist leanings. The educational projects he inspired were dismantled or sidelined. The more confrontational elements of the early anarchist current went underground. Those who spoke of abolishing property or questioned the Porphyrian vision of modernity were met with jail, exile or worse. Rudraconti's allies, Alacosta, through his newspaper La international, promoted a 12 point socialist agenda, advocating a universal social republic, municipal autonomy, workers rights, worker associations, wage abolition and property equality. Despite Diaz's rise, in 1877, he led a peasant uprising in Sierra Gorda and Planes de la Barranca, battling federal forces until 1880. Despite his defeat and imprisonment in 1881, the rebellion persisted. Tacosta's ally, Colonel Alberto Santa Fe, introduced the Ley del Pueblo, influenced by Bakunin's ideas. Though not a purely anarchist manifesto, this document emphasized land distribution, national industry promotion, army suppression and free education. Santa Fe argued that true Mexican independence depended on reclaiming stolen lands, a movement which of course gained traction among the peasants. General Negrete supported Santa Fe's revolutionary efforts, just as he had backed Chavez Lopez and Cell Acosta earlier. Santa Fe's resistance against the ISIS dictatorship was more radical than mere electoral opposition. It aimed at transferring sovereignty to local municipalities and land to peasant collectives. However, by the 1890s, Diaz effectively suppressed most worker movements through bribery and repression. While industrial workers and miners fared slightly better than the peasant, wages steadily declined after 1898. Ruda Canate left Mexico in 1886 after giving over two decades of his life to the cause. But his two decades of sowing seeds would eventually flourish in the Mexican Revolution, which we'll be covering in the next episode. Thanks for tuning in. I'm Andrew Sage. You can follow me on YouTube @AndrewSung and Patreon.com SaintDrew thanks again. This Is it could happen here. All power to all the people. Peace.
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Listener 7
Your gut microbiome and those healthy bacteria can actually have positive effects throughout your body. Not just your gut, but your mental health, your metabolism, your immunity, your risk of cancer, heart disease, almost any disease under the sun.
- [26:29]
Listener 6
Yep, you heard right. Probiotics might actually impact everything from your brain to your heart. So what science and what's just really good marketing? On this episode of Dope Labs, me and Zakiya cut through the hype and get into the real deal behind probiotics, with help from gastroenterologist Dr. Roshi Raj.
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Listener 7
So, yes, bacteria is definitely having a moment, and I'm very excited about that.
- [26:53]
Listener 6
From probiotic drinks and gummies to face creams and pillows. Yep, we said pillows. The probiotic boom is everywhere. But how much of it actually works? And what does it all mean for your gut, your skin, and even your mood? Join us on Dope Labs, where we break it all down in the lab like only we can listen to Dope Labs on iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [27:18]
Listener 5
I have a question for you and I want you to be honest with me. How are you? It's a really hard question to ask. It's a harder one to answer. But taking care of our mental well being has never been more important. All of May is Mental Health Awareness Month, and on the psychology of youf 20s podcast, we are taking a vulnerable look at why mental health is so hard to talk about and all the science and psychology behind some of life's hardest moments and transitions. Prepare for our conversations to go deep. Everything from grief to heartbreak, career burnout, anxiety. All of the things that you would only talk about with your closest friends.
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Listener 4
I spent the majority of my teenage.
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Listener 6
Years and my twenties just feeling older, Absolutely terrified.
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Advertiser
I had a panic attack on a conference call.
- [28:04]
Listener 2
Knowing that she had six months to live.
- [28:05]
Advertiser
I was no longer pretending that this was my best friend.
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Listener 5
So this Mental Health Awareness Month, take that extra bit of care of yourself and your brain. Listen to the psychology of your 20s on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [28:22]
Listener 8
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- [28:37]
Listener 2
Across the country, cops called this Taser the Revolution.
- [28:41]
Listener 8
But not everyone was convinced it was that simple.
- [28:43]
Listener 2
Cops believed everything that Taser told them.
- [28:46]
Listener 8
From Lava for good. And the team that brought you Bone Valley comes a story about what happened when a multi billion dollar company dedicated itself to one visionary mission. This is Absolute Season one, Taser Incorporated.
- [29:02]
Listener 1
I get right back there and it's bad.
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Listener 2
It's really, really, really bad.
- [29:09]
Listener 8
Listen to new episodes of Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge episodes 1, 2 and 3 on May 20, 21st and episodes 4, 5 and 6 on June 4th ad free at Lava for Good. Plus on Apple Podcasts.
- [29:30]
Listener 3
In 2020, a group of young women in a tidy suburb of New York City found themselves in an AI fueled nightmare.
- [29:39]
Host
Someone was posting photos.
- [29:42]
Listener 2
It was just me naked.
- [29:43]
Listener 7
Well, not me, but me with someone else's body parts on my body parts.
- [29:48]
Listener 2
That looked exactly like my own.
- [29:50]
Host
I wanted to throw up.
- [29:51]
Listener 2
I wanted to scream.
- [29:53]
Listener 3
It happened in Levittown, New York. But reporting the series took us through the darkest corners of the Internet and to the front lines of a global battle against deepfake pornography.
- [30:05]
Listener 1
This should be illegal.
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Listener 2
But what is this?
- [30:07]
Listener 3
This is a story about a technology that's moving faster than the law and about vigilantes trying to stem the tide. I'm Margie Murphy. And I'm Olivia Carville. This is Levittown, a new podcast from iHeart podcasts Bloomberg and Kaleidoscope. Listen to Levittown on Bloomberg's Big Take podcast. Find it on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [30:38]
Host
Hello and welcome to Kid Happen here. I'm back with Get Rusty Davis. Hello, and I'm Andrew Sage or Andrewism on YouTube. Now, previously, we explored a lesser known chapter in Mexico's radical history. Before Magon, before the Revolution, when a Greek emigre named Plotino Reconnati arrived in the 1860s convinced that Mexico's indigenous communal traditions could form the basis for a new anarchist society. Through schools, pamphlets and mutual aid societies, he helped sow the first seeds of anarchist thought on Mexican soil. Some of his students pushed even further and flirted with many burgeoning streams of anarchism, even as Porfirio Diaz's regime clamped down on anything that challenged his drive for order and progress. Rhoda Canati faded from view, and many of his students and associates had to go underground for a time. But the ideas would live on like quiet sparks awaiting for the next revolt. And the next revolt would come in 1910, when the Mexican Revolution erupted. But keep in mind the context here. When we talk about revolutions, the focus tends to be on the flashpoint, the gunfire, the slogans, the major figures, and I will do a lot of focus on some of the major figures throughout this history. But we have to keep in mind the revolutions have roots that run deep, run deep below the surface. The revolutions are often shaped by decades or centuries of injustice. And Mexico's revolution was no exception. Because for over three decades, Porfirio Diaz ruled Mexico with what was basically a velvet glove over an iron fist. He brought railroads and electrification, but also grave, grave costs for the rural poor, the indigenous communities and the working classes. By 1910, thanks to his efforts, almost all the land in Mexico was in private hands. The rural poor now found themselves as peons and haciendas, while those that fled to the city found themselves proletarianized, made to work at various industries for long hours, low pay and little protection. Despite appearance stable and efficient and orderly, the system in Mexico was profoundly unjust. And yet many saw it as a model for progress in a region full of instability, a description that seems eerily familiar to the situation that's currently taking place in El Salvador. Beneath the polished veneer, tensions were brewing. Workers were organizing, journalists were risking their lives. Teachers and lawyers, and even wealthy landowners began to murmur about the need for reform. And in the countryside, those old communal memories refused to die. Even after the land was taken, the land was remembered. By the turn of the 20th century, Diaz approached his 80s with no successor in sight and the people were getting fed up. Which brings us into the first phase of the Mexican Revolution. According to Angel Cappelletti, the author of Anarchism in Latin America and the main source of this episode, Francisco Ay Madero wasn't quite a revolutionary in all honesty. He just wanted to tweak the status quo to keep a free market, but ban the re election of president. He came from money. He was an upper class intellectual, a believer in parliamentary democracy and in free markets. He read the revue Spirit religiously. It was a spiritualist journalism and he believed in a kind of metaphysical liberalism where good governance and good intentions could steer history in the right direction. Madero's party, the Partido Democrata, was formed with a single clear goal, ending Porfirio Diaz's decades long grip on power. But to more radical forces like Ricardo Flores Magon and the Partido Liberal Mexicano, or plm, Madero's vision was nowhere near enough. Don't get fooled by the name. By the way, the PLM had some revolutionary credentials. It started off as a simple anti clerical, anti dictatorial party, but perhaps with the influence of North American and Spanish immigrant anarcho syndicalists. It eventually took on a libertarian character, guided also in part by the ideological evolution of Magon himself. It was neither liberal nor truly a party in the end, but rather a truly revolutionary libertarian organization. We'll get back to Magon's story in a second, but the point is, where Magon was calling for social revolution, land redistribution and workers control of production, Madero merely wanted electoral reform. He had no real program for agrarian justice and was generally indifferent to the problems of the Mexican masses, as Cappelletti put it. Still, Madero's 1910 campaign electrified all of those who were yearning for change, revolutionaries and reformists alike. His challenge to Diaz helped ignite a broader uprising that managed to bring Madero into power in 1911. Before we get into what happened during the Madero presidency, let's go back in time to follow Ricardo Flores Magon's story. Magon was born in 1873 in the village of San Antonio Ilocochitlan in Oaxaca. His roots straddled both indigenous and mestizo heritage. As a law student in Mexico City, he found himself swept into the tide of anti government agitation. Before he even turned 20, he was jailed for the first time. He joined the radical press in 1893 with El Democrata, an anti diaspor that the regime quickly snuffed out. But he wasn't deterred. In 1900, he co founded Regeneration, the publication that would become the voice of the Mexican left in the 20th century. It was while behind bars where he often found himself that Magon encountered the ideas that would shape his life's work. Thanks to the library of liberal landowner Camilo Arriaga, he read the writings of Kropotkin and Malatesta, and through those texts, crystallized his anarchist vision. Now, even though Magon's ideology incubated quietly in his early political life, it didn't stay buried for long. As its conflicts with the Diaz regime intensified, so too did the radicalism of his actions. He edited El Hijo del Aguizote, a satirical rag that earned him yet another stint in prison. And after his release in 1904, Macron fled to Texas, where he relaunched Regenacion with renewed purpose. By 1905, the paper helped spark the creation of the Partido Liberal and Chicano, or pll, which as I said, wasn't much of a political party as it was a radical organ. Though it did have some reformist demands mixed in. They were trying to soften their language at times to appeal to conservative sympathisers of reform. Away from Diaz, the PLM sought the abolition of the military tribunals, free secular education, workers rights like the 8 Hour Workday and minimum wage, and the expropriation of idle lands. In short, it went further than the 1917 Constitution. That would come a decade later. And it could be seen as the crystallization of many of the Mexican Revolution's most popular aims. Magon and the PLM established alliances across borders, particularly among the industrial workers of the world. But that put a target on Magon's back for both Mexican and U.S. authorities. You already know you can't be having solidarity like that. The Pinkertons rolled up, backed in part by Diaz himself. And they were on Magon's tail constantly. They even ended up as far north as Canada, just trying to escape their constant harassment. But despite the repression, their momentum could not be killed. Between 1906 and 1908, the PLM helped organise a string of strikes and uprisings. The most infamous was the Kania Nia copper strike. Mexican miners were paid starvation wages, while their American counterparts earned double for the same work. When the miners struck for fair pay and better conditions, they were met with deadly force. The rebellion that followed saw American rangers and Mexican troops massacre more than 200 people, and thousands were jailed. Another uprising ignited in Rio Blanco, where textile workers already paid a pittance, organized with the leadership of Jose Niera, a student of Magon. When negotiations failed and repression ramped up, the workers responded not with another petition, but with insurrection. On January 7, 1907, they stormed the mill, freed prisoners, cut wires and declared open rebellion. The state responded with a bloodbath. Entire families were dragged from their homes and executed. Another one of the uprisings was a peasant revolt that began in 1906 in Akayukan and spread through Tuxtlas, Minatitlan and Tabasco. It was crushed, of course, in 1908 in Villascas, though their plans had been leaked to the authorities, Revolutionaries had a firefight with police and freed a town jail. Just two days later, in Las Vacas, other students of Magon were fighting for justice. Another set of guerrillas arose in Palomas, but they failed. Yet another insurrection happened in Valladolid, Yucatan, and they suffered summary executions. And all those events, all those small revolutionary bans challenging the states, they. They failed. But they emboldened the dream of a different world with their will to act. McGon was jailed again in 1907, but it wasn't over for him yet. And I really don't like to romanticize, you know, this idea of, you know, these uprisings that they feel, but, you know, they're still inspiring. We don't go too far into that where, you know, self sacrifice, for self sacrifice sake. But I think it's important to point out that there were multiple failed attempts before the successful uprising that ushered in the Mexican Revolution. It wasn't, you know, a first time successful attempt. By the time Magon was released from prison in 1910, the revolution had already begun to burn across Mexico. And that is in part in thanks to the efforts of those uprisings, even though those individual uprisings failed. The Catalan immigrant Amadeo Ferez pumped up this energy in 1911 with El Tipografo Mexicano, yet another newspaper with a fierce anarcho syndicalist spirit meant to mobilise urban workers. At the same time, bold anarchist typographers were not only printing their message, they were forming unions like the Union de Canteras Mexicanos. In mid-1912, Juan Francisco Moncaliano arrived from Cuba and quickly rallied a diverse group of workers into Grupo Luz, set on establishing a progressive education platform a la Francisco Ferrer. By September 1912, these unions and Grupo Luz united to form La Casa del Obrero, forging a distinctly anarcho syndicalist identity. They organised lectures, built libraries of classic anarchist works and launched a new bi weekly called Lucha, all while energising a massive May day rally in 1913, where 20,000 workers rallied. Like Magon, these radicals saw through the hollow promises of Madero's democracy. Voting for a new president wouldn't free the peasantry. Legislative seats wouldn't redistribute land. No Congress, no matter how liberal, would ever voluntarily dismantle the system that fed it. For them, revolution was no less than putting land and production in the hands of the people. No bosses, no landlords, no masters, just workers organizing life on their own terms. Madero's revolution, if it could even be called that, had mobilized peasants, workers and radicals. But that moderate phase was about to end. Because once seated as president, Madero leaned heavily on old elites. He really siphoned energy away from genuine social change with that reformist push that he was doing, a move that sounds all too familiar. Madero's refusal to enact meaningful change lost him his allies very quickly. Figures like Pascual Orozco and even Emiliano Zapata, who had initially supported the rebellion against Diaz, became disillusioned. So while Madero governed, the PLM continued its fight. Now against the emerging new regiment in northern Mexico, PLM aligned forces initially rose alongside Madero's, but they did not make common cause with him. When strategic positions in Chihuahua were lost, with the middle class and Orozco siding with Madero, the Magonists turned their attention elsewhere. Their next target was Baja California. In early 1911, they began seizing towns Mexicali, Los Alcodones, Tecate and finally Tijuana, seeking to establish a libertarian society, a model for what they called a free America. But the backlash was swift. American, British and French businesses owned pretty much all of Baja California. Landowners and newspaper moguls in California, usa, which were often the same people panicked and ended up smearing the Magonists as secessionists trying to hand over Mexican land to the us. In truth, as Magon wrote in Regeneracion, does Baja California belong to Mexico? It does not. It is under the control of foreign capital. Mexicans owned nothing of it. The PLM's campaign was not about taking Mexico apart, it was about reclaiming it from the hands of foreign elites. Nothing less than land and liberty, as Cappelletti put it. On the contrary, McGon's goal was nothing other than a classless and stateless libertarian society that would provide the archetype and point of departure for the Mexican and world revolution. The downfall of the Baja California campaign came at the hands of bourgeois champion Madero, backed by the US government and capitalists. By mid-1911, the Magonist uprising in Baja California had effectively been extinguished. Yet the saga didn't end there. On 14 June in 1911, Magon and three of his associates were arrested, tried in Los Angeles and Magon himself was sentenced to McNeil Island Prison in Washington State, a fate he endured until 1914, which meant that Magon wouldn't be present in Mexico for the death of one of his biggest opps. Since Madero failed to gain the support of radicals or secured the loyalty of reactionaries, the conservative military overthrew and assassinated him, installing Victoriano Huerta into power in 1930. And just like that, the so called moderate phase of the Mexican Revolution ended in blood. Huerta's dictatorship tried to turn back the clock to the Porphyrian era. Huerta ruled with military force and repression, the usual stuff, persecuting labour organisers, shutting down radical spaces, deporting foreign activists, jailing dissenters, murdering people. Crackdowns eventually hit La Casa de Lobrero's publications and destroyed the anarchist library. But out of this repression emerged a new tactic. They basically said, you know, you could burn our books, that's fine, do what you have to do, but you're not going to stop us from spreading our message. They established grassroots orators, the Tribunal Roja, who took the revolutionary message directly to the working classes, giving speeches where they were at and sharing the message even without access to literature. By May 1914, a new people emancipation Obrera was launched. Though it too fell prey to the regime's brutality. Thankfully, the regime wouldn't last long because Huerta's power didn't go unchallenged. From the north, Venustiano Carranza and the constitutionalists rose to oppose him, claiming to defend Madero's legacy from the south, Emiliano Zapata refused to accept any government that ignored the demands of landless peasants. And throughout the country, armed struggle reignited. Which brings us to Emiliano Zapata himself. He was doing his own thing politically, but he was inspired in part by the anarchist supporters of Magant. His ideology was rooted in the calpuille, the collective land systems of his indigenous ancestors. He eventually adopted the slogan Tierra y lirutad and rallied behind the Plan de Ayala demanding land redistribution and local self governance. He had little tolerance for political maneuvering. He saw the false promises of figures like Huerta and Carranza. For Zapata, revolution was not about elections or modernisation. It was about giving land back. That's really all he cared about. In contrast, as the Wario to his Mario, there was Pancho Villa. He was a charismatic northern general and a populist who worked with and against Carranza. As Magon described him, Zapata delivers riches to their true owners. The poor Villa executes the proletarian who takes a piece of bread. Though both were opposed to Carranza, their goals, strategies and ethics were far apart. Like I said, Mario Tezuairu Huerta didn't last long. As I mentioned, he was ousted by 1914, so just about a year of being in power and being a violent dictator. And after Huerta fell, Finostiano Carranza rose to fill the vacuum. Like I said, he claimed to be continuing Madero's legacy. And his vision of Mexico was just as top down. He wasn't exactly fond of anarchists or the radical left in general. But faced with pressure from the Zapatistas in the south and various forces in the north, he courted labour organisations like Casa del Opprero Mundial offer gestures of support, a few favourable labour reforms and even physical space, like giving them the Jesuit college Santa Brigida as headquarters. In return, Carranza hoped to build a loyal base of organized workers, integrate them into his constitutional army and neutralise the more Radical strains of revolution, and I'm sorry to say that it partially worked, he was able to buy off some of these workers. While this alliance gave La Casa de Lobrero space to organise workers throughout the country and ramp up educational and proselytising efforts, much like what would take place in Spain years later, the anarchists began to lose their anarchist roots from the collaboration instead of back in Zapata. In February 1915, La Casa signed a pact with the Constitutionalist forces and created Red Battalions within Carranza's army. But although La Casa expanded its influence and managed to mount strikes among miners, teachers, drivers, bakers, oil workers, textile workers, carpenters, button makers and Barbers in 1915, in response to the economic pressures of inflation and unemployment, by early 1916, their government allies were cracking down on them. Not long after hiring the Red Battalions, they fired the Red Battalions. They shut down La Casa's offices. They sent key figures to jio. In response, the Workers Movement held a National Congress in Veracruz. And out of this emerged a new labour federation built on anarchist syndicalist principles, committed not to capturing power, but to dismantling it, the Confederacion del Trabajo de la rion mexicana. In May 1916, a general strike erupted in protest of the imprisonment of La Casa's leadership and to demand urgent economic relief. While the strike was an immediate success, its ease led many young militants to believe that change could come through a benevolent state. Notably, Luis Morones, who would later lead the Confederacion Regional Obrera Mexicana, signed agreements with Carranza's government. Matters intensified 10 months later when a second strike broke out due to low pay. In response, Carranza ordered mounted police to break up assemblies and declared martial law. The strike was crushed, its committee suspended all activities and one prominent leader was nearly executed before his sentence was finally commuted. La Casa shut down and the strike failed, but the anarchists endured. By mid-1917, new groups like LOOS and several local Casas had reappeared throughout the country. However, internal debates culminated in the October 1970 National Workers Congress, where reformist forces led by Luis Morones properly marginalised the anarchists, setting the stage for the rise of the CROM and a more moderate pro management approach aligned with, of all people, the American Federation of Labour, the afl. Carranza's crowning achievement came in that same year with the signing of the Constitution of 1917. On paper, it was progressive land reform, limits on church power, labour protections. But to many revolutionaries, including Magon, this wasn't the revolution fulfilled. Far from it. It was a revolution managed Their wildest dreams trimmed down to a policy. Even its better reforms were hardly enforced. But with the Constitution of 1917, Carranca could still claim legitimacy. He could claim progress and he could claim that the revolution was over. But what happened to the revolutionaries? Zapata was still fighting for land in the south, but Carranza would assassinate him. By 1919, Magon was imprisoned in the USA, denouncing the betrayal from behind bars. Workers were still struggling for real power in their workplaces, and the vast majority of rural Mexicans remained poor, dispossessed and disillusioned. In case you're wondering what happened to Magon in 1916, he was jailed in the US until a group of exiled anarchists led by Emma Goldman and Alexander Bergman paid his bond. Now that feels like a cameo or crossover episode of some kind, right? And then in 1917, the year of the new Constitution, he was back in jail again for speaking out against the First World War and calling for a social revolutionary war instead of. He was sentenced to 20 years and his health deteriorated steadily. He wasn't a fan of Carranza at all. He called him a strikebreaker, an assassin and a wolf in sheep's clothing. When Carranza's government offered him a pension, he said, all money obtained by the state represents the sweat, the anguish and sacrifice of workers. If this money came directly from workers, I would gladly and even proudly accept it because they are my brothers. But when it comes to the intervention of the state, after being compelled from the people, the money would only burn my hands and fill my heart with remorse. So, long story short, he didn't accept the money. When the US said they might let him go if he said sorry and petitioned for a pardon, he said in many words, hell no. Among his more beautiful words, he said, repentance. I have not exploited the sweat, anguish, fatigue and labor of others. I have not oppressed a single soul. I have nothing to repent for. My life has been lived without my having acquired any wealth, power or glory when I could have gotten these three things very easily. But I do not regret it. Wealth, power and glory are only won by trampling others rights. My conscience is at peace, for it knows that under my convict's garbage beats an honest heart. So he died in his jail cell in 1922, possibly assassinated. Zapata, like I said, was assassinated by Carranza in 1919, and Carranza himself was assassinated in 1920. In case you were keeping track, both of Magon's major ops, he ended up outliving. Right. He outlived Madero and Then he outlived Carranza, but he still died in jail, which is, you know, kind of tragic. The Carranza's successor, Alvaro Obregon, was both friendly with reformists in the CROM and not as hostile to the anarchists as Carranza, which gave the anarchists an opportunity to regroup. Strikes built up across the country. Miners, oil workers, textile workers, dock workers and more. Some 65,000 workers in July 1920 alone. Out of this momentum came the Federacion Comunista del Proletariado Mexicano, or fcpm. It was an ideologically mixed group, but leaned in anarchic direction and starkly contrasted itself with the reformist ways the CROM and their international ally, the afl. The FCPM went on to establish the Confederacion General de Trabajadores, or CGT in 1921 as a direct challenge to the Crom. They were fully declaring their independence from state and party. Their focus was on class struggle. The Mexican government flirted with socialist language from time to time. But the anarchists saw through the charade. They called out that so called socialist light government's deportation of anarchists and socialists. They even called Moroni, the guy who started crom, Mexico's Mussolini, an interesting insult. The CGT stood against the Moscow backed Third International and instead allied with councillors like Rosa Luxembourg and Anton Panakoek. They also formed a specifically anarchist section within the group, meant to play the same role played by the FAI for the Spanish CGT. The Mexican CGT backed strikes, including in 1921 when they backed a real workers strike against US companies. And in 1922 they expelled CGT leaders who had flirted with electoral politics. Reiterating their anti party stance. They would not allow themselves to be retaken and capitulated to reformist aims. That same year, May Day protests turned into confrontations when right wing thugs killed a demonstrator's child in front of the U.S. consulate. And they didn't stop there. Anarchists in the CGT helped organise tenant strikes in Mexico City and Veracruz. They led general strikes in textile mills and rallied against state violence. They protested in solidarity with international struggles from Spain to Boston. From the murder of Salvador Segui to the jailing of Sacco and Vensetti. They also had to deal with efforts to defame them through misinformation, such as the accusation that they were embezzling workers funds. Throughout the early 1920s you had some new libertarian publications jumping out. You had Verbarojo, you had Lahumaidad, Sagittario, Tierra Libre, Alba, Anakiqua, and so on. And by 1924, under President Calles, who followed the assassinated Obregon, the tides began to shift. Calles was more hostile to the anarchists than Obregon and openly favoured Crwen. He gave Morones a cabinet post, passed laws to undermine CGT organising and escalated repression. The CGT held its ground, organizing general strikes, occupying textile mills, confronting the police, expanding to the countryside. All their usual stuff. They fought for short term relief and long term revolution. By 1926, CGT had grown into a federation of 157 affiliated groups. Unions, syndicates, agrarian communities, all included. And yet, by the late 1920s, things started to fray. The CROM was declining due to their attachments to a government that was no longer conciliatory to their political ambitions. And the CGT couldn't capitalise on that decline of the Cromwell. The government sought to marginalize them entirely. Thousands of former CROM members joined the cgt, while the CGT itself began to make some slides toward concession and reformism. And so it reached a point where they were calling themselves anarchists. But the anarchism was nowhere near the roof. And yet anarchism didn't die. It morphed, it migrated and it regrouped. After the fall of Spain. In 1939, exiled members of the CNT and FAI arrived in Mexico, reinvigorating the scene for a time. They published Tierra y Libertad, built new organisations and kept the memory and the fight alive. A few anarchist impulses managed to emerge within the Mexican Communist Party into the early 1930s as well, at least according to Kirkschaeffer. President Calles ended up founding what became the Institutional Revolutionary Party. A contradiction if I ever heard it. And they basically ran the show in Mexico for 71 years straight from 1929 to 2000. Their administration co created the conditions that would birth the neo Zapatismos in 1994. They're not anarchists, as they have been very clear to state. But maybe they'll get a two parter in the future, going into their history in more depth. The history of anarchism in Mexico has been quite the story, I must say. And with that we've reached the end of that classical history. Its modern history is still being written, still being told. But this is the end of our exploration for now, not just of Mexico's anarchist history, but of this entire series of anarchism in Latin America. I joked about making an episode about Quebec's anarchism scene, but that may remain a joke for now. We've journeyed a very long way together. From the Andes to Buenos Aires to Montevideo to Sao Paulo to all over, we've seen how long before the name anarchism arrived on Latin America's shores, people were resisting hierarchy through indigenous forms of autonomy, African maroon communities, and peasant traditions of land sharing and reciprocity. We saw how these anarchic and anarchish instincts met new ideas, genuinely and intentionally anarchist ideas coming from Proudhon, Bakunin and Kropotkin, brought over in pamphlets and in the minds of exiles and immigrants in Mexico, those forces took on a revolutionary scale. Rhoda Canate planted the seed. Magon amplified its voice. The workers, the peasants, the students, they all gave it their all, their fire. And even when that fire was smothered by reformists, by nationalists, by reactionaries, by capitalists, by the bullets and the bribe, it never truly went out. Across the Americas, these movements rarely won in the traditional sense. They were often betrayed, suppressed, and erased from history. But although anarchy was not achieved, anarchists and the anarchist idea will survive. Anarchist thought is radically resilient, and it never really disappears. It usually just goes underground or into the margins or into new forms, from student collectives to feminist organizations to squats to ecological struggles, inspiring movements that aren't necessarily anarchist, but lean in a direction that questions some of the familiar patterns of authority. Thank you for walking this journey with me. I've been Andrew Sage. You can find me on YouTube @Andrewism and support the work over at patreon.com JanetHrew all sources, citations and further reading can be found in the show notes. This has been it could happen here. War. Power to all the people. Peace.
- [62:52]
Listener 5
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So, yes, bacteria is definitely having a moment, and I'm very excited about that.
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From probiotic drinks and gummies to face creams and pillows. Yep, we said pillows. The probiotic boom is everywhere. But how much of it actually works? And what does it all mean for your gut, your skin, and even your mood? Join us on Dope Labs, where we break it all down in the lab like only we can listen to Dope Labs on iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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- [66:07]
Listener 3
In 2020, a group of young women in a tidy suburb of New York City found themselves in an AI fueled nightmare.
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Host
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- [67:15]
Advertiser
Welcome to the War Update, an update about war. I'm your host, Mia Wong. With me is James and Robert.
- [67:23]
Listener 4
Yeah, war never changes, etc. Etc.
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Advertiser
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- [67:33]
Listener 4
Yeah. I think it's a line from a film.
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Listener 1
Yeah. I mean, the most important part doesn't change, which is most things in proper place at right time. Right. That's what determines war winning. But the things that matter are what change.
- [67:48]
Listener 4
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Not enjoyable except for. For the chunk of people who tend to make most of the calls.
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Yeah, yeah, enjoyable.
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I like it a lot.
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Yeah, enjoyable if you're an old guy in a big house.
- [68:05]
Advertiser
Yeah. So we're going to be talking about three wars. Yeah. I think we're going to lead off with the India Pakistan war and then we're going to do the other two wars in some order. Do you want to announce the other two wars?
- [68:20]
Listener 4
Yeah, we're going to talk about the end of the, of the armed conflict between the PKK and the Turkish state, maybe.
- [68:28]
Listener 1
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- [68:33]
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- [68:35]
Listener 4
Okay, so the good news she missed.
- [68:36]
Advertiser
Is that, look, we do have good news, which is that we have not all died in nuclear fires. I know there are some of you for whom you are very disappointed, but we're all still here for better or for worse. I mean, for better. Like, I'm very glad we didn't all die. Nuclear fire. Yeah. So let's, let's. Let's talk about the recent war between India and Pakistan. Lasted about four days. So. All right, we talked about this a little bit before. The very basic sort of elements of this conflict. We've talked about partition on the show before. When India sort of gained independence from the British Empire, it split into India and Pakistan. Millions died. Horrific sort of conflict. People Killing each other. Like mass migrations across the borders. Very, very, very unstable set of borders get set up that change a bunch of times. And one of the aspects of this, of this sort of whole thing is that Kashmir was supposed to be this independent state. And then through an extremely convoluted process that I am again, once again pushing off to another episode with like actual good experts on this, because this is a very, very convoluted thing. But the short version of it basically is that this series is sort of escalating conflicts and ends basically in a sort of short war. And then cashier being split in two between India and Pakistan where like about a third roughly of cashmere ends up under Pakistani control and then about two thirds ends up under Indian control. Now there's an agreement signed by sort of Kashmir's ruler at the time to, to let India like annex like 2/3 of Kashmir or so the act, the actual dividing line basically ends up being like where the armies stopped. You know, it changes over the years. But the, the important thing here, right, is that Kashmir is supposed to have had an independence referendum, right? That was like the deal.
- [70:37]
Listener 4
Yeah.
- [70:38]
Advertiser
Now in a move that is like genuinely even more stunning than the shit that like Indonesia pulled in West Papua. So in West Papua, right, Like Indonesia pulls a like fake independence referendum here. They've never even done that.
- [70:52]
Listener 2
Like they pretended to have the referendum.
- [70:55]
Advertiser
That they're supposed to have had.
- [70:57]
Listener 4
It's like a sub Assad level attempt at democracy, you know?
- [71:00]
Advertiser
Yeah, yeah, they're just like no beat shit. Like you're basically a colony now. Now as, as part of this deal, right. Kashmir got a pretty substantial amount of autonomy. I'm going to read there. There's actually, there's a very good Jacobin, one of the rare good Jacobin articles, which usually tend to be the ones written like, not by the American jocken writers.
- [71:23]
Listener 4
Some freelancer who, who made US$50 for writing it.
- [71:27]
Advertiser
Yeah.
- [71:27]
Listener 4
And that's. Their rates have gone up.
- [71:29]
Advertiser
Yeah. This is written by Arish K. And I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna quote here from this article, quote, central to the instrument of accession. It's the document that the ruler of Kashmir signed to sort of like hand Kashmir over to India. Quote, was the constitutional provision of Article 370 which assured the Kashmiri people autonomy over all matters besides those pertaining to defense, external affairs and communications. The article was supposed to be temporary and provisional because there was a promise of a referendum by which the people of Kashmir would decide their own political fate to remain part of India to join up with Pakistan or become an independent state. But as we've already mentioned, this just never happened. I mean, they didn't even do a sham one. It just literally didn't ever happen. And India has just been imposing its rule on Kashmir ever since. It is. I mean, it is also worth pointing out that Pakistan has also been imposing its rule on, like, its part of Kashmir. But the Indian occupation has become increasingly brutal. Basically, since it's starting, it's just continued to get worse and worse. And it is sort of a full blown military occupation. Right. There's just like a bunch of fucking Indian troops in the street. And as it becomes clear that India is like never going to let Kashmir be free or just even let the Kashmiri people decide what they want, militant struggles ensues. And as K points out, it's originally spearheaded by the secular Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front. And this group is just sort of wiped out because it wanted an independent Kashmir. And this was convenient to neither the Indian or the Pakistani government because Pakistan wants, and Pakistan talks about this a lot internationally. Like one of their sort of international political things is like, yeah, we want free Kashmir, but it's like, no, you don't. You want Kashmir to be part of Pakistan. That is not the same thing as it being free.
- [73:13]
Listener 2
Like, let's be very clear about this.
- [73:15]
Listener 4
Yeah, yeah.
- [73:17]
Advertiser
And so, and so Pakistan's engagement towards Kashmir is always been about this. Right. It's always been about making sure that there wouldn't be any kind of sort of independent Kashmir. And so both India and Pakistan crush the sort of secular Kashmiri independence group that have been spearheading a lot of this. And over time, Pakistan has sort of, through it, through a complicated series of things, has asserted a lot of control over a lot of these groups or has like, intelligence relations with them. ISI kind of notoriously works with militant groups like the, The ISI is the group in Afghanistan that like, really full on did the thing that everyone thinks that the US and the Saudis sort of did in terms, in terms of like funding the worst parts of the Mujahideen. Like, that was really mostly Pakistani intelligence.
- [74:08]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [74:08]
Advertiser
So, like, they have a lot of relations with a bunch of people who absolutely fucking suck. And, and they've, you know, sort of used a lot of these, a lot of these groups as like a way to sort of poke a stick at India and also, you know, like, attempt to obtain their sort of like, domestic political goals of like, weakening India for, for their own sort of internal stability, which we'll come back to later. Well, the internal stability of like military, of the power of the military in Pakistan and also like taking the rest of Kashmir. Yeah. And so this has caused a really horrific conflict in which the people of Kashmir have suffered a bunch of horrible shit. In 2019, that autonomy, you know, again, the autonomy that was the carrot in order to like join. In order in exchange for Kashmir joining India. Right. And supposedly getting this referendum. Like the, the, like the carrot was supposed to be that they're supposed to have an unbelievable amount of internal Autonomy. And in 2019 it had been being eroded for a long time. But in 2019, India is just like, eat shit, fuck you. It's gone now. Have fun. And this causes a bunch of protests, it causes militant group attacks. It causes a genuinely astonishing crackdown. I mean like they, they turned off the phones in the Internet in Kashmir. The Indian government just like did this and it became unbelievably difficult to get any information out. They arrested unbelievable numbers of people. There are I mean, just absolutely horrifying accounts of the shit that Indian security forces were doing to people. You know what I mean? Like, this is, this is, this is a colonial occupation. Right? The things that happen in a colonial occupation, they fucking torture people, they kill people, they like, they rape people. It's, it's really fucked. And drink this as more sort of like militant attacks erupt. Like India does the first version of its. Well, not the first version, but it does, it does. Like it launches a series of attacks on southern Pakistan. And this is kind of, you know, there were escalations of it a couple of years ago, but you know, the sort of big deal this time was insurgents. And it's, we have a group that claim responsibility for it. It's still, I don't know, it's still unclear the extent to which Pakistani government was actually involved. There's a whole thing with this, but a bunch, a bunch of sort of insurgents killed like 25 Hindu tourists.
- [76:37]
Host
Yeah.
- [76:38]
Advertiser
In a Kashmiri tourist town. And it's really fucking horrifying. This immediately causes this just unhinged wave of Hindu nationalism. Like a new sort of nationalism in India. We talked last time about all of these Indian government officials like literally talking about quote, an Israel style final solution to Kashmir. So bunch of very, very horrific shit is happening.
- [77:02]
Listener 4
Yeah.
- [77:03]
Advertiser
And then India decides that it's going to start launching attacks across the border. There's like the immediate small arms fire, there's missile strikes, there's drone attacks. And then as this sort of escalates, India launches attacks. On three Pakistani air bases. And again, like, they hit an air base that is in the city where Pakistan's army general headquarters is, which is a kind of provocation that has not happened since, like, the last time these two countries were just straight up at war. And, you know, like, that could have killed us all. It didn't, but it absolutely could have. And it was also just horrifying for. And it's worth pointing this out, right? The people who are getting killed on both sides of the border here, like, are Kashmiris, right? Because, like, their home has been occupied by these two powers. When. When. When India and Pakistan go to war, the people who die on both sides are. Are Kashmiris, right, Who are being killed by two states who've decided, fuck you, we get to control your fate. We get to be the people who fucking occupy your land and then claim to, like, be the people who represent you. And, you know, the civilian toll of this is fucking horrifying. There's a bunch of. A bunch of civilians are killed. People spend a huge amount of time cowering in these, like, horrifying, overcrowded bunkers. There's a good sort of BBC report on this. Like, there's so many people packed into bunkers that, like, you can't even, like, walk. Everyone's just, like, pressed against each other. And three days later, you come out of your bunker and your fucking house is gone. And those are the people who survived, right? It's. It's just horrifying. And eventually there's a ceasefire. Everyone is now saying different things about the ceasefire. The Indian government is trying to downplay the US's role in the ceasefire. The Pakistani government has been talking about how a whole bunch of places were involved, including, like, Iran and Turkey to some extent, or Turkey more than Iran. It seems like the us, the UK, and Saudi Arabia all played a role in sort of mediating it that we can sort of confirm. The US seems to have played the largest role, which I guess, I don't know. Like, Marco Rubio was like, we should probably not have a war between two nuclear powers, which. Okay, I'm glad that, like, he's finally found a thing, a level that he won't stoop to, which is we all die in nuclear war.
- [79:31]
Listener 4
I mean, like, I. I would rather Marco Rubio was not the. The Secretary of State, but, like, of the people who could be under Trump administration, he's not as bad as some of the other folks.
- [79:42]
Advertiser
Yeah, I mean, it's like he.
- [79:45]
Host
We.
- [79:45]
Advertiser
We are fully in, like, which of Hitler's Generals, would you prefer to be in charge of this territory? So, like all these people.
- [79:53]
Listener 1
Yeah, we don't need to. We don't need to debate Rommel right now. What we do need to do is throw to add the Erwin Rommel of the podcast industry.
- [80:12]
Advertiser
Okay, so there are a few things about this conflict that are very, very bad. One is that India has demonstrated the capacity to launch attacks against Pakistan that don't involve them mobilizing their ground troops, which takes forever. It is hard. That's really fucking bad. It's also bad. It's that again, they fucking hit like the air base next to Pakistan's general Army general headquarters, which means if they try to do another attack, they're going to have to hit a bigger target. And they apparently, it seems like the Indian government has sort of concluded that they can do this. Now. It's also very bad that like, most of the, like, domestic Indian left supported this, including cpim, Communist Party of India, Marxists, which is like the sort of social democratic, technically Maoist party that is supposed to be like the left in India, like back the attacks. And they've always had a fucking terrible line on Kashmir. So it's also worth mentioning a little bit. There's been a lot of reporting about India. You know, Modi isn't making a bunch of noise about trying to just straight up cut off Pakistan's access to water, which is very scary. Yeah, it's worth noting. K talks about this in that Jacobin piece. Kay's argument basically is that, like, they don't actually have the infrastructure to do this, which is good because, I mean, that would be a genocide. Like if they just knocked out all Pakistan's access to water for agricultural purposes and for drinking purposes, it'd be really bad. But here's. I'm going to read this quote. Under the treaty regulations, India is required to share hydrological data that is essential for planning to deal with floods and or droughts during monsoon seasons. Denying Pakistan access to this data would have a damaging impact. Moreover, because of the limited storage capacity, India can change the timing of water flow, which is crucial for many crops during sowing seasons. So there is still a lot of damage they can do. They can't straight up do like a genocide, but they can do a lot of damage. And while both sides have backed off of like, direct military conflict, India still is committed to every single thing they can do to fuck with Pakistan, which affects, just like the people of Pakistan. This has also been politically very good for Modi because ultra nationalism, it's Been bolstering the sort of like Pakistani military government because their ultra nationalists feed off of this. And it's once again really fucking bad for the people of Kashmir, who are the ones getting killed on both sides of the border.
- [82:23]
Listener 1
Yep.
- [82:25]
Advertiser
War is bad. Free Kashmir. Hate this.
- [82:28]
Listener 1
Yeah. Well, speaking of war being bad, let's. Let's talk about what's going on in Yemen. So if you remember from the last quarter or so of the Biden administration, after Israel launched their reprisal attacks to October 7 on Gaza, the Houthis, which is a, depending on your stance, either the legitimate government of Yemen or a rebel group in Yemen, you know, the international community stance is a rebel group. The Houthis stance is different.
- [82:59]
Listener 4
Yeah.
- [83:00]
Listener 1
Started launching a series of missile attacks, both aimed at Israel and aimed at shipping in the Gulf of Aden. Right. In order to disrupt. Because a significant amount of the world's trade goes through there. And this took a number of forms. They have ballistic missiles. Some of them are indigenous, by which I mean made by the Houthis, oftentimes using stocks that were captured from the military and government of Yemen previously, you know that they supplanted in a lot of areas and other times using missiles that were given to them by Iran. Yeah. Right. So it's a mix of tactics. They have also used drones and they have also landed troops in order to capture bulk freighters, including one called the Galaxy Leader And I think 2023 that was full of cars. And their claim was that it was a British vessel and obviously the Brits had been helping to arm and support Israel. The vessel was actually registered in Lebanon. However, whenever we get into discussions about, like whose vessel is whose, none of that, none of what is registered matters. Vessels are registered all over the place for a variety of nothing. It's always nonsense. That means nothing.
- [84:09]
Listener 4
They are in the Marshall Islands.
- [84:11]
Listener 1
Yeah, like nothing. Nothing in the entire world matters less to the reality of a situation than where the vessel is registered. I'm not saying that justifies or does it, with the Houthis did. I'm just saying it does not matter where the vessel is registered. Yeah, yeah. The ship was owned by a Lebanon based company, but also, given the nature of capitals, doesn't all matter all that much now. What also doesn't matter is that in January of this year, the Houthis freed the captain of that ship and they made an announcement that they would limit further attacks to vessels flagged as Israeli or owned by Israeli individuals or entities. Right. Now, that also doesn't mean a lot. Right. Because the nature of international trade means that there are a lot of, you know, you could basically argue, if you're the Houthis. Well, this, this is owned by a multinational corporation who owns companies in Israel or who has heavy investments and companies in Israel, therefore. Right, right. As a result, you know, the Houthis continued doing the Houthi stuff, and Trump saw them as kind of a convenient target, a convenient place to flex his military muscles. And there were some people within the United States defense establishment that considered that extremely convenient too. Right, yeah. And this is largely due to the fact that Biden prescribed a very limited campaign against the Houthis. Now, this does not mean inexpensive or insignificant. We kept at least one aircraft carrier carrying out strikes in Yemen for like a year or so, which is kind of the first combat duty that an aircraft carrier has had in quite some time. That was really like active, taking incoming fire. Not incoming fire that ever really threatened the carrier itself. But that's sort of beside the point. And there were people within the US Military establishment who were consistently frustrated with the Biden administration that they were not letting them operate at a high enough tempo. Right. And kind of the, the number one guy advocating for this side of events was General Michael E. Kurilla, who is the head of Central Command or centcom. Right. And his attitude had been, we need a much more aggressive, high tempo campaign. He pitched the Trump administration when they came in. I think it's like an 8 to 10 month long campaign where initially they would degrade Houthi anti air assets. So first we go in there and we use our air power to establish what's called air supremacy. Right. Air superiority means that you have better quality air support, but also your shit can get knocked down. Air supremacy means you have complete control of the skies. Right. The US Military is fairly used to having air supremacy. If you look at like for example, our, our combat in Iraq and Afghanistan, when it came to like height, like, like fighter aircraft, helicopters would get shot down from time to time, obviously, and have accidents. We weren't losing F18s in Afghanistan. Right. Like they weren't getting knocked out of the fucking sky by the Taliban. We had air supremacy in Ukraine. Depending on what part of the, of the battle space you're talking about, either things have been more or less at a standstill or Russia has had air superiority, but not supremacy. Right. Because Ukraine has very solid modern anti aircraft defenses and it has been able to exact a toll. We will talk to a greater extent about what's been happening with India and Pakistan. It is Exceedingly unclear at the moment who got the better of the engagement. Did any of those Chinese anti aircraft missiles actually knock out aircraft? Did any India lose any aircraft? Did Pakistan Dan down any aircraft? We actually like everyone's making different claims right now and I don't have objective evidence. Right. Other than that we can, we know that things that there's at least evidence of an at least one case what looks like refuge of a Rafale and in at least one case there's what looks like a knocked down Chinese anti aircraft missile. I'm spacing on the exact name right now, but again that doesn't mean anything about how they actually fared in the battle space. Right. So anyway, yeah, this motherfucker had a sitcom. Michael Ecurillo was like, I've got this plan, we need a much more force. We're going to knock out their anti air defenses and then we're going to basically carry out a modified version of what Israel carried out against Hamas and Hezbollah, right. Where we start targeting and killing the leadership cadre once we've knocked out their defenses. And he estimated that would take about a little under a year. Right. But the better part of a year. And the Trump administration said you can have your higher tempo war but you've got to show results. In about a month, right? In about a month the US military carried out about 1100 strikes. They killed, they say, hundreds of Houthi fighters, destroyed quite a bit of weapons and equipment. Very unclear how many fighters they killed. Certainly hundreds of people. Were those all Houthi fighters? How many weapons and equipment were, were destroyed? I don't have access to that sort of data and I'm not entirely confident that anyone in the US military has a much better idea. Certainly a little bit more data, but also they get that shit wrong all the fucking time.
- [88:59]
Advertiser
Yeah, it's, it's also like it's worth noting, right, when they're talking about like casualty numbers. The Houthis are not a like small rebel group. Like they control the capital of Yemen, right. Like this is like the government, right?
- [89:13]
Listener 4
Yeah.
- [89:14]
Listener 1
They are not a peer state in terms of the US and that they do not have the manufacturing base and capacity, but they are equivalent to a small state actor, right?
- [89:24]
Listener 4
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [89:25]
Advertiser
And so when you're bombing them, right, like you're, you're, you're just, you are blowing smoking craters in apartment buildings in.
- [89:32]
Listener 1
And the Houthis are so experienced with getting bombed. They've been bombed by a lot of people before. None of this is new to them, right?
- [89:40]
Advertiser
Yeah.
- [89:41]
Listener 1
So in the first 30 days, while they, you know, the US has made a lot, has made a lot of claims about how many people they killed and level of degradation of Houthi capacity, the Houthis have, have done some damage to US capacity. They have shot down seven at least at this point, at least seven MQ9 Reaper drones which are $30 million each. And in addition now four F18 jets have been lost. Not probably to, not probably just to fuck ups that are a result of the tempo of activ. All tend to be craft that are landing and don't get caught by the catapult system that they've got on these aircraft carriers or otherwise wind up in the Red Sea. Right. There is some suspicion and debate as to is there any sort of internal treason going on here? Is somebody on the aircraft carrier making these fuck ups happen? This is being investigated, I believe, although there's no confirmation about what exactly has gone down. It's weird to lose this many FA18 Super Hornets in a very short period of time. Yeah.
- [90:47]
Advertiser
I will say my, my, my understanding of it also is that the other thing that's going on here is that this aircraft carrier has been out past the point it should have been refitted.
- [90:53]
Listener 1
Yes.
- [90:54]
Advertiser
Like so extraordinarily.
- [90:56]
Listener 1
And it's also not weird that people fuck up when they are carrying out operations at a tempo they never have before. Right. And there's a very good chance that it's nothing more than that, that the more you fly, the more accidents are going to happen.
- [91:07]
Host
Yep.
- [91:08]
Listener 1
Right.
- [91:08]
Listener 4
Yeah, period.
- [91:09]
Advertiser
Also, I want to say, I want to say imagine you are like the deck office.
- [91:13]
Listener 1
Oh man.
- [91:17]
Listener 4
Getting like, yeah, okay.
- [91:19]
Advertiser
Like the first one goes over, right. And then the second one goes.
- [91:23]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [91:23]
Advertiser
And now it's happened twice, right now you've probably been, yeah, you're out.
- [91:27]
Listener 1
And they put a third guy and that first guy's kind of lucky because when the next to fall off, at least maybe that's less pressure on you. Yeah.
- [91:35]
Advertiser
Like, like imagine like you are the deck officer of the fourth one.
- [91:40]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [91:40]
Listener 2
Like Jesus Christ.
- [91:49]
Listener 1
That'S gotta suck. So in about 30 days, the US military had burned more than a billion dollars on this operation. Right. At which point Trump and people around him were like, oh fuck, we can't keep this shit up. We can't maintain this tempo of. There were warnings given within the Defense Department that we have used so many of our most advanced munitions that if China makes a move on Taiwan, we're not sure we have the reserves necessary. Right. These munitions. When we talk A lot about the capacity of U.S. firepower. People talk about, like in 2018, how we, like we got a. There was this Al Qaeda guy who had been responsible for the attack on the USS Cole 20 something years ago.
- [92:29]
Listener 4
Yeah. A long ass time ago.
- [92:30]
Listener 1
Who, who got, who used a cell phone he shouldn't have used briefly and then turned it off. And we were able to get visual confirmation of where he was from the cell phone signal and knock his ass out with a drone. Right. And we do have incredible capacity potentially to make unbelievably precise strikes. However, that capacity is reliant both upon a functional network of human intelligence, a functional network of operators of aircraft and drones who are not completely burnt out by the tempo of operations and access to incredibly advanced munitions, which we do not have in inexhaustible capacity and are reliant upon an international supply chain to continue to manufacture. Right. And all of that has been endangered by the tempo of this campaign. And ultimately there's a great New York Times report on this that's just absolutely damning to the military that came out. It's called why Trump suddenly declared victory over the Houthi militia that declared that after all of this, the best we can say is perhaps a modest degradation of Houthi capacities that they can easily recover from given enough time, which they're going to get because Trump both declared victory and stated that the Houthis had yet again agreed to stop striking shipping in the Red Sea. And he was like, this is a win. We made a deal with them. Big deal maker Donald Trump made a deal. Now, if you look at what the Houthis said, all they said is we're going to stop striking Israeli shipping, which if you'll recall, is what they had said in January. So did we win now? Did the Houthis win? Not yet, but they're, you know, they didn't lose. And again, if you understand your insurgent warfare, you win by just not losing for long enough. Right?
- [94:17]
Listener 4
Yeah.
- [94:18]
Advertiser
Well, and it's also worth, it's worth mentioning too, when you're talking about the global supply chain part of this. Right. On the one hand, like, the US has done an extraordinary amount to try to make sure that as much as the supply chain as they can is in the US on the other hand, it still requires a bunch of shit from other places, including a bunch of rare earth metals that the US Gets from China. Now, you may be noting we are currently fighting a trade war with China. A bunch of our, like, strategic planning is about stopping a Chinese invasion of Taiwan. So. And we've just expended a shit ton of our stockpile of munitions that we can only replace by using shit we get from China. So absolute just genius brain shit that's happening here right now at the highest levels of the regime.
- [95:02]
Listener 4
Myanmar has a lot of rare earth metals, but China is currently a lot closer to securing those than the United States is.
- [95:09]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [95:09]
Listener 4
Which is not great.
- [95:11]
Listener 1
Well, that's all I got. That's the Houthis. Let's have another ad break real quick here.
- [95:16]
Listener 4
Yeah, let's do that. Let's do that. Let's have an ad break. Lovely. What a nice advertising break. We are now back. I know many of you have been asking me about what is happening, happening in Kurdistan. So I'm going to try my best to very briefly explain that in the last segment of this show. So the pkk, right, the PKK being the branch of the Kurdish Freedom Movement that has operated in Turkey, Turkey or Northern Kurdistan, and mostly since the mid 2000 teens, has been based in Iraq or southern Kurdistan. Right. IT convened its 12th congress in the second week of May and it decided to disband itself, lay down its arms. And I think the phrasing it used was to cease armed activities under the PKK name, which is a way of saying things more broadly. It did genuinely seem to indicate a commitment to like this sort of ballot, not the bullet approach. And I'm going to quote kind of extensively here from the statement that the PKK released and then from other statements from like people. Jamil Bayek, the leader, one of the co chairs of the kck. The kck, if you're not familiar, it's a Kurdistan Communities Union, that is the group that allows the different areas of the Kurdish Freedom Movement, all of which are inspired by the political thought of Abdullah Ojalan, to sort of come together and discuss their paradigm, their goals, their methodologies. I guess so. I want to read from the PKK statement to begin with, quote. The process initiated by leader Abdullah oran's statement on February 27 and further shaped by his extensive work and multi dimensional perspectives, culminated in the successful convening of our 12th party congress between May 5 and May 7. Despite ongoing clashes, aerial and ground attacks, continued siege of our regions and the KDP embargo, our Congress was held securely under challenging conditions due to security concerns. It was conducted simultaneously in two different locations with the participation of 232 delegates. In total, the PKK 12th Congress discussed leadership, martyrs, veterans, the organizational structure of the PKK and armed struggle, and Democratic society building culminating in historic decisions marking the beginning of a new era for our freedom movement. It's a very long statement. As tends to be the style of statement from the Kurdish Freedom Movement. It talks a lot about Abdul Orjalan. As tends to be the style of statement from the Kurdish Freedom Movement. I've linked to it in the show notes, if you'd like to read all of it and you know, I'd encourage you to, if you're interested in this sort of thing. They talk a lot about the democratic nation concept and the idea that Kurds and Turks have coexisted in Turkey for a long time. I thought this part was of interest. I'm going to quote again here. The decision of our Congress to dissolve the PKK and end the method of armed struggle offers a strong basis for a lasting peace and a democratic solution. Implementing these decisions requires that Leader Apo. Apo, it's evocative form of the Kurdish word for paternal uncle. But in this instance it's referring to Abdullah Ojalan, right? That's his nickname. Leader Appo lead and guide the process that has right to democratic politics be recognized and solid, comprehensive legal guarantees be established. At this stage it is essential that the Grand national assembly of Turkey plays its role with historical responsibility. So a couple of things sort of note there. One is that they're talking about this. This transition towards democracy or a brotherhood of nations. They talk about somewhere else, right? Brotherhood of peoples. It's occurring under the leadership and direction of Abdullah Ojalan. If you are not familiar with Abdullah Ojalan, you can listen to Robert's theories. The Women's War, which does a great job of explaining a lot of the stuff that we won't have time to get into today. Very briefly, Appo has been in Imrali and various other Turkish prisons since 1999. For long periods of that time no one was able to see him. He was held completely incommunicado at times. There were hundreds of troops guarding only him on this Turkish prison island. That is no longer the case. Right. He made this statement on 27 February and since then the Kurdish Freedom Movement has had access to Oshiland. Right. He actually made another statement on 18 May where he said, and I quote, a new contract is needed based on the law of brotherhood. What we are doing represents a major paradigm shift. The nature of the Turkish Kurdish relationship is fundamentally different. What has been broken in the bond of brotherhood, it seems like through the Dem party, right, which is a left leaning party in Turkey. Which has supported the Kurdish cause and for a long time has served as like the interlocutor between Turkey and the Kurdish Freedom Movement through the DEM party, they have access to Ausulan and they're able, relatively frequently it seems like these DEM party officials to go, go to him, rally and talk to him. And so they're talking about his leadership continuing through this, this democratic transition. Right. For the Kurdish Freedom Movement. Jamil bikes Jimmy Bayek again is the co chair of the kck. In institutions within the Kurdish Freedom Movement, there's a co chair system, right. Which means that a man and a woman both share the chairmanship of, of an institution such that patriarchal structures aren't replicated in the movement. That's, that's the goal of the co chair system. He has a two part interview in ANF which I've linked again. In the notes he talked about how like the first role of the PKK of the movement, even before it was called the PKK was to quote, unquote, reveal the Kurdish quote, unquote, Kurdish question. Right. That's how they refer to it. Other times I'll talk about how Kurdish people were on their knees and like under the leadership of, of Orjilan, they stood up. They talk about also how on Mount Ararat, Turkey has a plaque apparently where it says like here is buried the imaginary Kurdish nation. And like the Kurdish nation is certainly not buried anymore. Right. Like it's, it's very active. Kurds are very politically empowered in, in two of the four countries where Kurds live. Right. Like in Turkey they are to a lesser extent, but they're still present. Right. No one could deny their presence in Iran. It's still, I guess, more difficult of a time for the Kurdish Freedom Movement. Bayek said, within our initial paradigm and our first manifesto, the Kurdish identity, the Kurdish people and Kurdish society were formed. A society in love with freedom was formed. A people emerged that would fight for freedom under any circumstances. On this basis, we are now developing a new paradigm, a second manifesto. This paradigm, this manifesto aim to resolve not only the Kurdish question, but also the issues of the peoples of the Middle east and humanity as a whole. Ray Barapo reber just means leader. Ray Barapo is no longer leading only the Kurdish people. He's leading all peoples and humanity.
- [102:46]
Advertiser
Incredible line.
- [102:47]
Listener 4
Yeah, it's yeah.
- [102:49]
Advertiser
Slide.
- [102:50]
Listener 4
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's yeah. This is the sort of rhetoric we can expect from the kck, right? Like they're very dedicated to Osilan as a leader.
- [103:01]
Listener 1
Yes, yes.
- [103:02]
Listener 4
And you know, Robert And I have both been to Rojava, heard a lot.
- [103:06]
Listener 1
Of no Life without our Leader speeches and seen a lot of. A lot of those posters as well.
- [103:10]
Listener 4
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you can't really go into a space. You'll see other. Like, it's not just Ausulan, right? You're going to see Irene Mercan and you're going to see. It's not like just a guy with a mustache. You're going to see women idolizing the movement too. But as you land, to the. To the greatest extent is like their Dear Leader figure. You can see his face all over Rojava. And they're very dedicated to Argeland's leadership. And like, this change in structure does not change that or the change in approach does not change that. In fact, it underlines that. Right. Like from the letter that Ojaland wrote and he wrote letters to different parts of the Kurdish Freedom movement came this change. Right. So it's still at the instruction of Auschelin, albeit with the consent of these delegates who went to this PKK congress. Right. And voted. I've reached out to the KCK to ask for comment on like, exactly what this means in terms of like, most of the kck, as I said, are in the mountains of southern Kurdistan now. And they have fought Turkey there for years. Right, We've covered that on this is podcast. Northern Iraq, southern Kurdistan, however you wish to. To call it. Like Turkey has been bombing. They were bombing it last time I was there. I'm sure they were bombing it last time Robert was there. They've been bombing it ever since. And the villages there have really suffered as a result. Right. People have lost their children, they've lost their lands. They've often had their crops burned by these bombs. So I'm interested to know the idea of the Kurdif freedom movement leaving the mountains. There is. I mean, it would be a hell of a sight. They've been in those mountains for a long time. But I don't know what this means for the Kurdish freedom movement in southern Kurdistan, but I've asked. I don't know if this means that they will attempt like a straight up electoral strategy, Right. Or when Orland's asking for a new contract, right? Like a new social contract. That's how in Rojava they literally have a social contract. Right. The social contract is generally like a theoretical construct in most, like, neoliberal democracies. The idea that you and the state enter into a agreement whereby you give up some freedom and you lose some danger. And the State gives you some safety and it takes some of your freedom. In Rojaba, the social contract is a real thing.
- [105:35]
Listener 2
Right.
- [105:35]
Listener 4
Like, it's a thing that is formed in consultation with society. So when, when we see APPO asking about a new contract, does that mean that they will engage, like, on the basis of a new Turkish constitution? I don't know. I don't think any of us have answers to these questions, and I imagine that they don't either. Right. Like, they have decided to pursue this strategy of peace. They've decided that through their armed conflict, they were able to prove that they exist. And that's a, that's a phrase that specifically people have said to me in the Kurdish Freedom Movement, like, we had to pick up arms to prove that we exist. And now that there's no denying their existence, they can use different methods. Right. Like they can put down their weapons and talk and establish with Turkey how to coexist, having established that they exist through the arms struggle. So for them, this is like they're celebrating it. Right. They'll draw the analogy very often to, like, Sinn Fein in Ireland. That's, that's one that you'll hear pretty often. And that, that this is their Good Friday. Now, in the Good Friday agreement, Britain have released people from prison. A number of very highly cherished, very highly respected members of the Kurdish Freedom Movement are still in prison. Of course, Aurulan being the most sort of widely loved and respected member of the Kurdish Freedom Movement. I don't think we're seeing Aurlan come out of prison. I don't think there's a world in which Turkey would let that happen. But maybe we will see some other people released. Maybe we will see those people, I don't know, enter into electoral politics. Some of them have been in the struggle for 50 plus years. Right. Like 50 years living in the mountains and constantly being worried about being bombed.
- [107:16]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [107:17]
Listener 4
So it'll be fascinating to see how this, this has been a long and bloody conflict. It's been going for longer than any of us have been alive. If the friends are happy, then I'm happy for them. Right. And if peace is what they want and they can get a way to continue, like General Bayek says, like, the people in love with freedom, like, if they can keep their freedom and, and they could do it without war, then I'm happy for them. Because, like, I've talked to a lot of Kurdish parents who have buried their children.
- [107:46]
Listener 1
God almighty. Been to too many of the graveyards in Northern Syria. Yeah, yeah.
- [107:51]
Listener 4
Those little White graveyards with little children's faces like that will stay with me forever.
- [107:56]
Listener 1
Yeah, whatever stops that, you know?
- [107:58]
Listener 4
Yeah. Like if one of the things that kind of struck me when I was in Rjaba last time is that, like, death just falls from the night sky sometimes.
- [108:07]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [108:07]
Listener 4
And maybe, maybe it's your baby, maybe it's you, maybe it's your grandma. And it's a pretty horrible way to live. And going through that for your freedom is something very brave. And they have endured some of the worst conflict on the planet in the last few decades. Right. They fought some of the worst people on the planet and won. And if there is a way that the people of Kurdistan can enjoy peace, I want that for them, because they've been at war for a very long time.
- [108:36]
Listener 1
Yep.
- [108:38]
Listener 4
Hi, everyone, it's James and we're just adding this pickup to the episode. I was able to get some questions answered on behalf of the Kurdish Freedom Movement, and I would just like to share those answers with you. So I asked if Aurjulan was able to address the congress. I'd previously been told he was. This is a response. Throughout the more than 26 years that Kurdish People's leader Abdullah Orjalan has been held hostage in the prison island of Imrali, he has always found ways to convey his messages and perspectives to the Congress of the PKK that has taken place. So it was again regarding the 12th Congress of the PKK, which convened from May 5 to May 7 in the free Mountains of Kurdistan. He was able to forward his ideas and analysis via the various delegations that have visited him throughout the last few months. I asked about Ajulan's call for a new social contract, and they told me. Kurdish People's leader Abdel Ojalan's calls and the historic initiative that he has taken do not imply that the Turkish state has adopted the same attitude or that the state has changed its approach. Kurdish People's leader Abdullah Ojlan is not simply hoping for a change of mentality in the state, but is moving forward, developing his project and thereby pulling the state along with him. What he is currently primarily concerned with is a redefining and reconstruction of the historical alliance of the Kurdish and Turkish people which has been derailed during the past century. A long term democratic solution to the Kurdish question necessitates a recognition of the role of the Kurds in the establishment and development of the republic. Relations between the peoples must be brought back to their historical roots. Such a vision cannot be realized unilaterally. It lays in the nature of the way, the struggle of the Kurdish People's leader Abdul Ojalan and the PKK that when they want to achieve a solution to a specific issue, they initially create through struggle the necessary conditions and context for it. What Abdul Hajalan does is to set the context and to encourage all related circles in Turkey to take upon their responsibility for a lasting peace. And then I wanted to ask about the people who were incarcerated and like the steps that they needed from the Turkish state in order for this peace process to continue. And this is what they said. A historic initiative was taken by Kurdish People's leader Abdullahan and the pkk. First of all, there was the publication of the Call for Peace and Democratic Society, end quote, on February 27th. Then there was a declaration of the unilateral ceasefire on March 1. And now there was the 12th PKK Congress May 5th 7th with a decision to dissolve the PKK. All of those steps were unilateral steps that were not the result of negotiations with the state. So far no official negotiations have taken place and no written or verbal agreements have been have been reached. The steps taken were only a sign of goodwill and expression of seriousness about peace. Now it is upon the Turkish state to answer to this initiative and take the first practical legal steps. So far all we have seen is empty rhetoric. For the process to actually unfold, Kurdish People's leader Abdullah Orjalan must first of all regain his physical freedom. And the conditions for him to work freely, healthily and securely must be guaranteed so that he can fulfill his role as a chief negotiator of the Kurdish people. Also, the constitutional reforms that grant the basic rights of the Kurds and recognize them as one of the primary constituents of the Republic must take place now. These are the first necessary steps. From there a peace process can unfold. If you're wondering about Rojava, just to finish up, Masloom Abdi made a statement. Masloom Abdi, leader of the Syrian Democratic Forces, right, sometimes called General Muslim Hoval Muslim Depends who you. Depends what side of things you're on, I guess. Masloom Abdi made a statement congratulating the pkk, saying he hoped all parties supported the peace process. The SDF is still in clashes with remnants of the so called Islamic State and increasingly with Sunnis within the Syrian revolution who are growing disheartened with what they see as Alshara's moderate turn, right, the Damascus government being too lib for some of these Sunni groups. And so isis, the Islamic State, whatever you want to call It Daesh is using that as a chance to recruit people, and that is why we are seeing ongoing fighting. Literally, I saw that they were burying one of their SDF fighters in Kavishlo today. So unfortunately for the people of Rojava, the killing and dying continues, which is sad.
- [112:56]
Listener 1
Yes. Yeah.
- [112:57]
Listener 4
I want peace for my friends there and in Burma. Despite the fact that Robert and I get paid to go to wars sometimes, it doesn't mean we don't want our friends to live in peace.
- [113:06]
Listener 1
Yeah, I would like there to not be any more to go to.
- [113:09]
Listener 4
Yeah, that would be great.
- [113:09]
Listener 1
I'll find something else to do.
- [113:11]
Listener 4
Yeah, fuck it. I'll go run with the bulls again.
- [113:13]
Listener 1
I went white rotter rafting yesterday. It was nice. I could just do more of that.
- [113:17]
Listener 4
Yeah, yeah, no, I'll rock climb, you know.
- [113:19]
Listener 1
All right, everybody, we're done for the day.
- [113:22]
Listener 4
Go.
- [113:23]
Listener 1
Hopefully not live in a war zone, but if you do, hopefully that stops soon.
- [113:27]
Listener 4
Peace.
- [113:39]
Listener 5
I have a question for you, and I want you to be honest with me. How are you? It's a really hard question to ask. It's a harder one to answer. But taking care of our mental well being has never been more important. All of May is mental health awareness Month, and on the psychology of your 20s podcast, we are taking a vulnerable look at why mental health is so hard to talk about and all the science and psychology behind some of life's hardest moments and transitions. Prepare for our conversations to go deep. Everything from grief to heartbreak, career burnout, anxiety. All of the things that you would only talk about with your closest friends.
- [114:17]
Listener 6
I spent the majority of my teenage years and my twenties just feeling absolutely terrified.
- [114:22]
Advertiser
I had a panic attack on a conference call.
- [114:25]
Listener 2
Knowing that she had six months to live.
- [114:26]
Advertiser
I was no longer pretending that this was my best friend.
- [114:29]
Listener 5
So this mental health awareness Month, take that extra bit of care of yourself and your brain. Listen to the psychology of your 20s on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [114:42]
Listener 7
Your gut, microbiome, and those healthy bacteria can actually have positive effects throughout your body. Not your gut, but your mental health, your metabolism, your immunity, your risk of cancer, heart disease, almost any disease under the sun.
- [114:56]
Listener 6
Yep, you heard right. Probiotics might actually impact everything from your brain to your heart. So what's science and what's just really good marketing? On this episode of Dope Labs, me and Zakiya cut through the hype and get into the real deal behind probiotics, with help from gastroenterologists, Dr. Roshi Raj.
- [115:16]
Listener 7
So yes, bacteria is definitely having a moment and I'm very excited about that.
- [115:20]
Listener 6
From probiotic drinks and gummies to face creams and pillows. Yep, we said pillows. The probiotic boom is everywhere. But how much of it actually works? And what does it all mean for your gut, your skin, and even your mood? Join us on Dope Labs where we break it all down in the lab like only we can Listen to Dope Labs on iHeartRadio app app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [115:45]
Listener 8
I know a lot of cops and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no.
- [116:00]
Listener 2
Across the country, cops called this Taser the revolution.
- [116:04]
Listener 8
But not everyone was convinced it was the that simple.
- [116:06]
Listener 2
Cops believed everything that Taser told them.
- [116:10]
Listener 8
From Lava for Good and the team that brought you Bone Valley comes a story about what happened when a multi billion dollar company dedicated itself to one visionary mission. This is Absolute Season one, Taser Incorporated.
- [116:25]
Listener 1
I get right back there and it's bad.
- [116:28]
Listener 4
It's really, really, really bad.
- [116:32]
Listener 8
Listen to new episodes of Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge episodes 1, 2 and 3 on May 21 and episodes 4, 5 and 6 on June 4 ad free at Lava for Good. Plus on Apple Podcasts.
- [116:53]
Listener 3
In 2020, a group of young women in a tidy suburb of New York City found themselves in an AI fueled nightmare.
- [117:03]
Host
Someone was posting photos.
- [117:05]
Advertiser
It was just me.
- [117:06]
Listener 2
Naked.
- [117:07]
Listener 7
Well, not me, but me with someone else's body parts on my body.
- [117:11]
Listener 2
Parts that looked exactly like my own.
- [117:13]
Host
I wanted to throw up.
- [117:15]
Listener 2
I wanted to scream.
- [117:16]
Listener 3
It happened in Levittown, New York. But reporting the series took us through the darkest corners of the Internet and to the front lines of a global battle against deepfake pornography.
- [117:28]
Listener 6
This should be illegal, but what is this?
- [117:30]
Listener 3
This is a story about a technology that's moving faster than the law and about vigilantes trying to stem the tide. I'm Margie Murphy. And I'm Olivia Carville. This is Levittown, a new podcast from iHeart podcasts Bloomberg and Kaleidoscope. Listen to Levittown on Bloomberg's Big Ten Take podcast. Find it on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [117:59]
Listener 2
Welcome to It Could Happen Here, a show about things falling apart. And today, the thing falling apart is the Galactic Empire. This is episode four of our four Part series talking about the politics of Andor Season two, Andor has sadly come to a close. This will be our final discussion episode talking About Andor Season 2, episodes 10, 11, and 12. I'm Garrison Davis. I'm joined by Robert Evans and Mia Wong. What a. What a Exhilarating four. Four weeks this has been.
- [118:34]
Listener 1
Yeah, I'm gonna miss it.
- [118:36]
Advertiser
Yeah, we're getting relief from the horrors to live the horrors in another universe.
- [118:42]
Listener 2
Yeah. No, it sucks now that we have to just do all this stuff except, like, the eight years in the past version because the level in which they've advanced here is far beyond certainly the US's revolutionary potential.
- [118:56]
Listener 1
Alas, yes. Tragic.
- [118:58]
Advertiser
Hey, if anyone wants to be our Mon Mothma taking applications, you can be the good liberal. You can be it.
- [119:05]
Listener 1
Oh, man, I'll take a fucking Krieger at this point.
- [119:13]
Listener 2
So I think we're gonna do these episodes a little bit differently. I'm not gonna do a whole synopsis for each of these episodes since for these last three, the show has mostly eschewed plot for emotional and character beats. So instead, I want to quickly go over each of those character points and then we can discuss those in detail. And most of our discussion will probably be around episode 10. Make it stop.
- [119:38]
Listener 1
Yep.
- [119:39]
Listener 2
Let's start at the beginning. Lonnie's last meeting.
- [119:42]
Listener 1
Oh, yeah.
- [119:44]
Listener 2
So the ISP double agent Lonnie Young, calls Luthen to an emergency meeting to give him one final batch of intel after burning his cover. It's really shocking and worrying when we see Luthen and Lonnie meeting in public like that. That already lets you know, like, oh, this is like, this is the end.
- [120:03]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [120:03]
Listener 2
Stuff is, like, the most over it's ever been for Lonnie.
- [120:07]
Listener 1
There's a great line that got one of the strongest reactions with the folks I was watching it with when Luthen's about to head out and he's talking with Cleia and she's like, don't do this meeting.
- [120:17]
Listener 2
If it doesn't look perfect, we don't engage.
- [120:20]
Listener 1
Yeah. And Luthen responds, I think we've used up all the perfect. And it just.
- [120:24]
Listener 2
I think we've used up all the perfect.
- [120:26]
Listener 1
Yeah, it's this really good. There's some very impressive, like, face acting from Skarsgrd here where, you see, he's. There's so much he wants to say to this person who, as we'll discuss, is essentially his daughter. But ultimately all that happens is she says, tuck his shirt in.
- [120:43]
Listener 2
Like, it's insane.
- [120:44]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [120:46]
Listener 2
So he meets with Lonnie. Lonnie needs, like, assurances for, like, him and his family's safety. Luthen tells them that they'll be able to flee to Yavin together. Sure. Sure, buddy.
- [120:56]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [120:58]
Listener 2
So by accessing Dedra's computer files, Lonnie learns that the Emperor's new energy project, the Calkite mining on Gorman, the Kyber on Jedha, are actually part of a massive superweapon. Luthen is warned that Dedra and the ISB are preparing for a raid on Coruscant, and he may be the target. Luthen ends up killing Lonnie to tie up loose ends and passes off the information to Clea to relay it to the rebel alliance while he goes to Thermite their computer hard drive, saying, yeah, he does. I'll do the burn.
- [121:28]
Listener 1
I'll do the burn.
- [121:29]
Listener 2
It's.
- [121:29]
Listener 4
It's.
- [121:30]
Listener 2
It's. It's Dover. Like our. Our shop, our little home, our little base of operations in Coruscant. Yeah, Is. Is. Is getting destroyed. It says. This is truly the end of an era here. Luthen either knows or has, like, decided that he has run out of time. And the only way to be sure that the information safely reaches the alliance is to give the ISB a distraction, and that distraction is himself.
- [121:55]
Listener 1
Yeah, and again, it's very consistent. He's clearly trying to buy time for Cleia to escape. Right. Like, that's. That's part. Part of his purpose here.
- [122:03]
Listener 2
Yeah.
- [122:04]
Listener 1
And I think he's also just done, you know, totally. He's. He's. He's done. He's tired, and he doesn't have it in him to run anymore.
- [122:12]
Listener 2
That's kind of what he discusses in this next section, which is such an efficient piece of screenwriting. When Dedra arrives at Luthen's gallery.
- [122:20]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [122:21]
Listener 2
You can. You can only hide in plain sight for so long. And that time has come as. As. As Dedra arrives, Luthen says, here you are at last. Every line in their exchange. Like, but before. Before she lets him know, like, hey, I know you are like. But, like, every line leading up to that is a double entendre. Like. Like every single exchange they have is actually communicating something else. And it's wild. Forgery is the sad curse of antiquities. At the moment, only two pieces of questionable providence in the gallery.
- [122:57]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [122:58]
Listener 2
Insane stuff.
- [122:59]
Listener 1
It's great. It's great.
- [123:01]
Listener 2
It's insane writing.
- [123:02]
Listener 1
And it's perfect that she keeps trying to get some sort of acknowledgment that she's won. That's all she wants out of this, is for him to. Basically, she's actually kind of desperate for him to say, you did good, kid. You cock me.
- [123:15]
Listener 2
That's crazy.
- [123:16]
Listener 1
And all he does is throw shade at her.
- [123:18]
Listener 2
No, no. It's like he cheated.
- [123:20]
Listener 4
Sucker.
- [123:21]
Advertiser
Rebellion's already gone.
- [123:22]
Listener 1
You dipshit fascist.
- [123:24]
Advertiser
Like, you fucking failed.
- [123:25]
Listener 1
Too late.
- [123:26]
Listener 2
But, like, referring to himself and in some ways, her as. Like. As an antiquity. Like. Like you said, like, he is tired. He is done. He is kind of a relic for the current era of the rebellion.
- [123:38]
Listener 1
And you don't know it yet, but so are you.
- [123:40]
Listener 2
Yes, and so is her. Only two pieces of questionable providence are in the gallery.
- [123:46]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [123:46]
Listener 2
Amazing. So Luthen hands Dedra a ceremonial dagger. She asks if it's real. He smiles and remarks, we still don't know. And the tension mounts. It's like.
- [123:57]
Listener 4
It's amazing.
- [123:59]
Listener 2
I get every single line. It's like the screenwriters playing with us. Just amazing. I think Tom Bissell and Tony Gilroy, all these episodes, just phenomenal. Dedra, now I'm nervous. Luthen, you've come all this way. And then she unveils this. This artifact that she has brought to Luthen for evaluation. She says, it's a little damaged, perhaps, but I'd say it's held its value. As she looks Luthen up and down again, same thing again, same thing. Very efficient.
- [124:29]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [124:30]
Listener 2
Luthen is a little damaged, but he's held his value. And Dedra reveals the vintage Imperial Star path unit that first brought Luthen's operation under Dedra's eye.
- [124:41]
Advertiser
And.
- [124:41]
Listener 2
And now that, like, both of them have their cards, like, displayed on the table, they. They get to exchange a little bit more clearly without having to use these, like, coded. Yeah, coded phrases like they were before. And they had this fascinating back and forth. She talks about how Luthen's been hiding in the shelter of imperial peace and quiet and just wants to burn the galaxy down. And Luthen gets to. Gets to poke at her for. For how he's been aware of. Of her this entire time, and she's only learned who he is. Quote, I've known you all along. Hardly seems fair. She says, you disgust me. Everything you stand for. And he says, do you know why freedom scares you? This is what Dedra's last arc is like, really about. And it eventually, you know, paradoxically leads to. Leads to her fate. Now, I think probably the best line in this little exchange is Luthen telling Dadra Quote, you're too late. The rebellion isn't here. It's flown away. It's everywhere now. There's a whole galaxy out there waiting to disgust you.
- [125:44]
Listener 1
Great light.
- [125:45]
Advertiser
Amazing.
- [125:46]
Listener 1
Yeah. Again, this whole time he's been increasingly cooking her and also cooking his hard.
- [125:54]
Listener 2
Drive, buying time as his hard drive burns up.
- [125:57]
Listener 1
Yeah, yeah, it's just some great stuff. And Dedra, we get some great face acting from. What is it? Denise is her name, right?
- [126:07]
Listener 2
Yeah.
- [126:07]
Listener 1
Gao, I think, where you just see. In a second, she sees the smoke and then Luthen collapses because he has stabbed himself in the heart. Which is also, like. It serves as another kind of riposte to every argument that she's been making. Like, it's his ultimate counter to her claims that, like, you're fundamentally selfish. You're just doing this for yourself and your own, you know, desire to create chaos. He's like, no, bitch, I'm gonna stab myself in the heart. Like, you don't know what commitment is.
- [126:37]
Listener 2
It's great. Yeah. He uses this. Uses this ceremonial dagger that he. That he earlier hands to Dedra and stabs himself so that the Empire won't be able to torture and try to extract information from him about the Rebellion.
- [126:50]
Advertiser
But you gotta have some explosives. Like, you can't be reliant on staggering yourself with dagger.
- [126:55]
Listener 4
This is.
- [126:56]
Listener 2
This is like a screenwriting thing. Like, Dedra has to get out of this. They have to. They have to access the computer later.
- [127:02]
Advertiser
Come on, buddy.
- [127:03]
Listener 2
Come on. I think. I think this is. Is. This is very, like, poetically written.
- [127:08]
Listener 1
Yeah, yeah.
- [127:08]
Advertiser
You know, it's. It's beautiful.
- [127:10]
Listener 2
I like, like the romance of it.
- [127:11]
Advertiser
Yeah.
- [127:12]
Listener 2
But man, Dedra fucked up so bad here.
- [127:15]
Listener 1
Yeah. Fundamentally ruins absolutely her entire life.
- [127:19]
Listener 2
The emotions really got the better of her. She really wanted to like, like, win one over on. On axis to like, validate herself and her obsession the same way like Cyril does. And it fucking bites her in the ass.
- [127:32]
Advertiser
It destroys the Empire.
- [127:34]
Listener 2
It destroys the entire Empire.
- [127:36]
Listener 1
Yeah. Yeah. I like that they had her simultaneously. She's both right in that if she had been listened to, she could have stopped the rebel victory. But also she fundamentally destroys the Death Star as a result of her insistence on being right.
- [127:59]
Advertiser
Fits into that old Marxist category of objectively revolutionary.
- [128:02]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [128:03]
Listener 2
Just by, like, how she.
- [128:05]
Advertiser
This up specifically and. Yeah. As well. This stuff we'll get to watch. You know, I think we've talked about how. How like, the. The Death Star plans got stolen, like, from her fucking hard drive.
- [128:15]
Listener 1
Yeah, yeah.
- [128:15]
Listener 2
Or like the. The. The learning of the Death Star existence through the hard drive.
- [128:20]
Advertiser
Oh, yeah, sorry. So, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [128:22]
Listener 1
They don't have the plans yet.
- [128:24]
Advertiser
Yeah.
- [128:25]
Listener 2
So Luthen's transferred to the hospital. And then we get a flashback with Luthen as an early Imperial army sergeant involved in a massacre on Clea's home planet. We see him, like, like, huddled over in his ship with a flask, repeating the words, make it stop.
- [128:44]
Listener 1
Make it stop.
- [128:45]
Listener 2
As, like, sounds of, like, carnage and destruction go on in the background.
- [128:51]
Listener 1
What's interesting to me is, yeah, they have. You're basically just hearing what's happening outside. He's in an Imperial army uniform and you're hearing, like, radio chatter. And it's radio chatter that could have come from, like, any war of the last 20 years. Like, it's very much modern radio call. It sounds like a lot of the shit you heard and, like the Collateral Murder video, like some of the stuff that got leaked by Chelsea Manning where people are like, yeah, hit everything on that hill dies. You know, anything past this. This point and this, like, line of buildings. Anyone you see on the heat scope, kill them. Like, it's that kind of stuff, right?
- [129:24]
Listener 2
Yeah.
- [129:25]
Listener 1
And it's. It's. It's very much like. It's very non Star wars chatter.
- [129:29]
Listener 2
Totally. You know, he's. He's, like, horrified at, like, what he's doing. He's trying to find ways to cope with it.
- [129:34]
Listener 1
He's drinking out of a flask and. Yeah, just like, repeatedly repeating to himself, make it stop.
- [129:41]
Listener 2
Just this, like, very short scene, like, recontextualizes a whole bunch of things about Luthen's character.
- [129:46]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [129:46]
Advertiser
Yes.
- [129:47]
Listener 2
Including his behavior on F. During. During the riot where he, like, doesn't get involved and instead looks on from a distance with like, a very, like a very blank expression. And, like, when I first saw that episode, to me, it felt like Luthen was, like, first confronted with, like, the fatality that he's dealing with. Like. Like confronted with, like, the consequences for actually engaging in revolution. Because he's always been kind of in the shadows. He's been more of this, like, orchestrator. He doesn't see, like, the, like, the tactile death that accompanies his actions. So, like, that's how I first saw that scene. And now this has been fully recontextualized as, like, Bariks is like a PTSD moment for him. Like, it's. This is. That's. That's not the first time he's seen combat. Yes, this is. This is it. It changes the way you can now look back at that scene, which is very, very cool.
- [130:39]
Listener 1
Yeah. And it's also interesting to think that he's putting himself in the perspective as much as anything of the Imperials doing the massacre.
- [130:47]
Listener 2
Yes.
- [130:48]
Listener 1
Yeah. As opposed to the civilian victims of the massacre. I read an interview with Tony where apparently, because they did not have Luthen's backstory set up in season one, like, they didn't fully know where he was going to go.
- [131:02]
Listener 2
They didn't have a single one nailed down yet. Yeah.
- [131:04]
Listener 1
And it was apparently Skarsgrd who was like, don't have him be another person who's pissed. Like, who just hates the Empire because it took everything from him.
- [131:13]
Listener 2
Like a normal revenge story where the Empire kills his family so that he becomes an insurgent.
- [131:18]
Listener 1
Yeah. Yeah. And I really. I think it's beautiful that, like, yeah, his backstory is that. No, he was made complicit. Like, however, whatever got him into the army in the first place, maybe just conscription. You know, he may not have even had a choice to join, but the Empire forces him to do, like, puts him in a position and he's. It's as much discussed with himself that he goes along with it as far as he does. And you get in those lines that he's just repeating to himself over and over again as he, like, making it. Like, that's his whole motivation, Right. Like, that's the. The next 20 years of his life are him trying to make it stop.
- [131:52]
Listener 2
Yeah, that's the title of the episode.
- [131:53]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [131:54]
Listener 2
Well, we'll talk more about that and his motivation at the end when we discuss kind of Clea. Speaking of which, in this flashback, it is shot from the perspective of Clea hiding in, like, a cubby on. On this ship.
- [132:06]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [132:07]
Listener 2
And Luthen named, I think, Lair Lar.
- [132:11]
Listener 1
Which is Lair. Sergeant Lair is his original name. Well, we don't know what his first was, but he just reverses it. Yeah.
- [132:21]
Advertiser
Come on.
- [132:22]
Listener 2
No, but, like, this is this. This is also, like, poetic, right?
- [132:24]
Host
This is.
- [132:25]
Listener 2
This is.
- [132:25]
Advertiser
Oh, it is.
- [132:26]
Host
It is.
- [132:26]
Advertiser
This is amazing.
- [132:27]
Listener 2
This is Star wars poetry, right? It's like poetry. It rhymes.
- [132:31]
Advertiser
OBSC. Wise. Don't do that. I just. I just got to put this in there. Don't do that. Do better.
- [132:38]
Listener 2
But Sergeant Lair finds Clea as, like a six year old hiding. Hiding on this ship. We then go back to the present as Cleia infiltrates a space hospital to get to Luthen. Intercut with flashbacks showing how Luthen used his military experience to train Clea in insurgent warfare. So here we see, like, Luthen being kept alive in this Coruscant hospital for later interrogation. And then suddenly, Dedra is arrested in the hospital by an ISB marshal for, at first, unclear reasons, which we will get into later. The ISB has found Lonnie's body. So there's a dead ISB agent in Coruscant. They've heard of how Dedra did this raid without authorization, without notifying the agent now in charge of the Axis investigation, and then she's taken into custody. In these flashbacks, we see Luthen and Kleia going town to town pawning historical artifacts. Well, he teaches young Clea insurgent warfare. One of the most devastating exchanges is when Luthen describes Klaya as his daughter to a shopkeeper to help, like, negotiate a price. And afterwards, Kleia asks, am I your daughter now? And he replies, when it's useful, yeah, she's.
- [133:55]
Listener 1
And then he. Yeah. And then he says, I'm Luthen, you're Clea. Like, Luthen, you playa. That's all we need to know right now.
- [134:02]
Listener 2
That's that. That's who we are now.
- [134:04]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [134:05]
Listener 2
Clea says, like, I'll have to think about that. And Lutheran says, sometimes it's not up to us.
- [134:10]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [134:11]
Listener 2
Another exchange happens after Cleo watches this, like, Imperial Firing Line kill a batch of kids who are allegedly suspected of shooting a Stormtrooper. I think it probably could have actually been Lutheran. It's unclear. And it essentially just demonstrates, like, collective punishment. Right. And Clea gets very upset at watching this massacre and runs off to Luthen. And also, like, interestingly, like, when Luthen knows this is gonna happen, he, like, chooses to, like, not watch. He's like, we don't need to be here. We can. We can just leave. But. But Clea chooses to stay and watch and then runs back to him, and he. He tells her, we fight to win. That means we lose and lose and lose and lose until we're ready. All you know now is how much you hate you bank that you hide that. You keep it alive until you know what to do with it.
- [135:05]
Listener 1
Yeah. And I, I, I love both that. He's. He's attempting to give her as much, like, agency as he can within this situation, where he's also, like, crafting her into a person. And so, like, if she decides she wants to go see this massacre, he'll let her do it. Like, he's not going to. He's not going to try to make her. But if that's what she wants. He's not gonna stop her. And then when she's seen what she needs to see, he's going to give her the best advice that he can give her. There's another line coming where he's. She asks if he's scared and he's like, only about what I'm doing to you. Right. That like he is still deeply. He feels deeply compromised by this position he's put himself in with this only other person that he really can trust.
- [135:48]
Listener 2
Yeah. They do their first like large scale direct action together on the Emperor's home planet of Naboo. He teaches her how to blend into the surroundings as they remote detonate an explosive planted on a bridge. While in the present, Cleia disguises herself as a nurse to disappear into the hospital where Luthen's being held and blows up the hospital parking lot as a distraction to get to Luthen. These two things mirror each other. It's like poetry. It rhymes. Kleia says to Luthen, you're afraid. He says, I'm only afraid of what I'm doing to you. As he hands this child a detonator.
- [136:22]
Listener 1
Yeah. And she just. She's not willing to. She can't like make herself use it yet.
- [136:28]
Listener 2
I mean, I feel like she was almost willing to.
- [136:30]
Listener 1
She was psyching herself up.
- [136:32]
Listener 2
Luthen actually took it away and like had himself do it.
- [136:36]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [136:37]
Listener 2
But that scene by itself where he's like telling her not to like look at it to make sure you're like looking at me. Only turn after everyone else has turned. Very fun stuff happening in Star Wars.
- [136:48]
Listener 1
Yeah. It's great. Like the whole. The decision he makes here is you see a lot about their relationship. And again this. How deeply compromised he feels by it of both, like, I have to get this person ready for what's necessary and also I have to protect her from like the worst things that we're going to have to do together. Like, he does want to remain primarily the one complicit. So I think in part because he does believe. I mean fundamentally, that's the core of his character. He does believe she has a future outside of this.
- [137:23]
Listener 2
And that's the entire point of what he's doing.
- [137:25]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [137:26]
Listener 2
Do you know what else is necessary, Robert?
- [137:28]
Listener 1
For us to throw to ads. Because otherwise we can't keep this movable feast on the road.
- [137:43]
Listener 2
Okay. We are back. Back in the present day on Coruscant, Clea finally reaches Luthen in his hospital room. And I guess like leading up to this. To this moment, it's unclear if she's going to try to, like, rescue him, like, like, extract him and. No, there's no time for that. She takes him off life support and lets him die. There is no escape for his character. Yeah, like, Luthen never gets to see that sunrise, but he did everything he could to give the Rebellion the best chance. And Clea gets to finish and, like, live out what he started. He wants to give Cleia that sunrise. And like, this, this relates to his core motivation as a character. He's not getting revenge against the Empire for killing his family or something like that kind of cliched story is not what they're doing here. Instead, this is all. All about clay.
- [138:38]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [138:39]
Listener 2
It's about how he's, like, found Claire and both of them are broken by what he has done. So then he spends the rest of his life building the rebellion for Claya so that she can live on and she can. She can beat the Empire. And that's the entire, like, point of him. Like, that. That is what's driving him. He is, like the most selfless character. Tony in an interview, said, quote, there are only a certain number of reasons that you can change your life, and one of them is just absolute self disgust. So we found a way for him to have a belly full of it at the right moment.
- [139:15]
Listener 1
Yeah. And I love that, like, that's his whole motivation ultimately, is, like, undoing the only part of what he was involved in that he can undo, which is saving this person. And, like, saving this person involves destroying the thing that took her life away from her.
- [139:32]
Listener 2
Yeah. The entire apparatus of the Empire.
- [139:35]
Listener 1
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [139:37]
Listener 2
I think we're kind of wrapped up with this episode here, but, like, the Kleia Hospital, like, infiltration sequence is superb.
- [139:46]
Advertiser
So good.
- [139:47]
Listener 2
Like, one. One person doing all of this stuff to the absolute befuddlement of, like, the Imperial Troopers. She's really embodying the line from Rogue One, make 10 men feel like a hundred.
- [139:59]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [140:00]
Listener 2
And yeah, she's able to infiltrate this hospital. Like, she's working with a team of like, 10 people. And it's. And it's just her shout out to the granny alien in the elevator.
- [140:09]
Listener 1
Very, very great little comedy moment.
- [140:11]
Host
Yeah.
- [140:12]
Listener 4
Incredible.
- [140:14]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [140:15]
Listener 2
But unless you have anything else to say about episode 10.
- [140:18]
Listener 1
I mean. Yeah, like, this. This is obviously, like, my favorite episode of this particular batch by a mom.
- [140:25]
Listener 2
Maybe the best in the whole series. Like, this is absolutely.
- [140:28]
Listener 1
Yeah, I. The Lutheran and Clea moments. I love seeing, like, how at the same time, this, like, Hint. When you're seeing them kind of haggle over the price of this antiquity that they've got that, like. Okay, so Clay always had this. This degree of, like, cunning and.
- [140:44]
Listener 4
Yeah.
- [140:45]
Listener 1
This ability to kind of, like, recognize what's going on, which probably how she survived in the first place. Right. She's. She was always someone who saw more than other people, which probably.
- [140:55]
Listener 2
She's the girl.
- [140:56]
Listener 4
She's it.
- [140:58]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [140:58]
Advertiser
Yep.
- [140:58]
Listener 2
Yep.
- [140:59]
Listener 1
And at the same time, you get this piece of Luthen, like, there must have been, like, whatever he was before he joined the military, it was somebody who had this kind of deep knowledge of antiquities and probably this desire to make something of his life other than what became of it. And all that he's got left of it is, like, utilizing that real piece of himself to make a fake person. Right. Like, that's. Which is such an interesting character beat for him that, like, this. This thing that is probably closest to the real Luthen, the one that existed before his military service, before the empire ruined him, is completely remade in the service of making himself into something he's not.
- [141:39]
Advertiser
So when I first saw this, I was really worried because I think one of the most interesting parts about Clay as a character is that she is the only person that Luthen trusts absolutely. Right. She's the only person that he sees fully as an equal.
- [141:50]
Listener 2
Yeah.
- [141:50]
Advertiser
She's the only one who has all the information that he has. And, you know, I was, like, kind of worried that there was. Okay, well, now she's effectively his daughter, and it's like. No, it's actually like, she is still the only person. Like, even though Luthen has been sort of raising her, like, is, like, he's been trying to raise her as an equal as much as he possibly can. I think that's a really, really sort of fascinating way for this thing to have gone.
- [142:15]
Listener 2
Like, the actress of Kleya has said, like. Like, from Kleya's perspective, like, she doesn't really fully see Luthen, like, as her father figure. Like, because, like, inherently, like, he was, like, involved in the actual killing of, like, of her family. Like, she. She is. She has found a way to kind of love him through that, but it's. It's not like. It's not like that. That, like, immediate familial love. Like, it's. It's. It's. It's a different rationalization that she can still, like, give him, like, a final kiss on his deathbed and, like, does, like, does care for him, but, like, it's so much more like complicated and murky and, like, roped in with politics and roped in with.
- [142:56]
Listener 1
Yeah, but here's. Here's the thing. What I'll say about that, and this is kind of my favorite part of that, is I can see how she would be like this feeling I have towards him, like, isn't like what someone would feel towards a father. But also she doesn't really know how people feel about their parents because she didn't get to have them very long.
- [143:15]
Listener 2
People can feel like that. Can feel that way about their father.
- [143:19]
Listener 1
Feeling both this deep sense of love and disgust towards your parents is an incredibly normal experience. And she just doesn't. I think maybe there's a degree to which she doesn't even really realize how. How common that is. Because of what was taken from her.
- [143:33]
Listener 2
No, that's a good point. That's a good point.
- [143:35]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [143:36]
Listener 2
All right. Episode 11, who Else Knows? Krennic and Dedra Queen out together. Hell yeah.
- [143:44]
Listener 1
Look at.
- [143:44]
Listener 2
Look at them go. So Denture is in this interrogation chamber, and Krenic grills her about how this piece of information.
- [143:53]
Listener 1
He's so good.
- [143:54]
Listener 2
How this piece of information has escaped containment. And Dedra's face throughout this whole scene. Oh, my God.
- [144:03]
Listener 1
She comes into it, you can tell. She thinks, I'm gonna get out of this.
- [144:07]
Listener 2
I'm gonna talk my way out of this.
- [144:08]
Listener 1
Yeah, surely I'm sort this all out.
- [144:12]
Listener 2
Yeah. No, once she realizes this, that this is actually about, like, the leakage of, like, the Death Star plans and not just a simple raid on a rebel, like, weapons dealer, she realizes the kind of gravity of her situation.
- [144:27]
Listener 4
She.
- [144:27]
Listener 2
She complains about how, like, she's been forced to, like, scavenge for information because there. There's not like, an efficient, efficient intel sharing operation across different Imperial branches. And Krennic says to her, if you're not a rebel spy, you missed your calling. Which is the biggest insult you can say to her.
- [144:45]
Listener 1
Oh, my God.
- [144:45]
Listener 2
Right? This destroys her.
- [144:48]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [144:49]
Listener 2
And, like, this is this. This is the same mistake that, like, Cyril makes. Right? They're trying to, like. To, like, do this, like, try hard stuff.
- [144:56]
Listener 1
You think initiative is rewarded here?
- [144:58]
Listener 2
Exactly.
- [144:59]
Listener 1
Yeah. Yeah. You.
- [145:00]
Listener 2
No, you follow orders. You do not take your own initiative. You are not your own person. You follow what you're told to do. You don't take things into your own hands. This is how the whole system crumbles.
- [145:12]
Host
Yeah, it's.
- [145:13]
Listener 2
It's phenomenal how, like, she is so much like, you know, like, especially in Cyril's eyes, right? She has, like, everything that he wanted to be but, like, couldn't. And yet she has all the same flaws as him. They're both children trying to, like, grab and seize their spot, like, in the. In the Imperial world. And they can never escape the logic of children. Yeah, it's phenomenal. So, yeah, basically, because she was sent memos accidentally, she was accidentally added to Houthi PC small group. She had information on the desktop that she shouldn't have that she stored on her computer that then Lonnie was able to access with, like, a stolen code cylinder. And this is why she's detained.
- [145:55]
Listener 1
And I love, too, that Lonnie makes a statement that, like, he didn't tell Luthen he had this. Cause he's like, well, you would have made me use it.
- [146:01]
Listener 2
Yeah, that's exactly super cool.
- [146:04]
Listener 1
And there's this. Yeah. Like, Lonnie has gotten very good at this. Like, he was right to not tell his boss.
- [146:11]
Listener 2
Sometimes you share and sometimes you don't. And. Yeah, yeah. No, like, the idea of him holding onto this code cylinder, this. This whole year, knowing that you can only use this once before you're kind of found out.
- [146:20]
Advertiser
Yeah.
- [146:21]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [146:21]
Listener 2
And then, like, waiting until he's heard chatter that, like, Luthen's gonna get raided, uses the cylinder, then discovers all these other files. It shows how, like, important Luthen's operation is. I think this is. I think what these last two episodes are really about is kind of like.
- [146:33]
Advertiser
Yeah.
- [146:34]
Listener 2
The redemption of Luthen in the eyes of. Of the other rebel agents. So. So, yes, Dedra is completely. And it's hilarious. And Ben Mendel is prancing around the scene.
- [146:48]
Listener 1
He's having such a good time.
- [146:51]
Advertiser
It's so good. This is like. It's like this. And. And the thing where he's going pow kite earlier episode.
- [146:57]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [146:57]
Listener 2
He's so good.
- [146:58]
Advertiser
It's only his two.
- [146:59]
Listener 2
Two best.
- [147:00]
Advertiser
Like.
- [147:00]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [147:00]
Advertiser
That's also just really like, God, they didn't let him cook in and. Or like, it's him and, like, how.
- [147:07]
Listener 1
To cook, you know?
- [147:08]
Advertiser
Oh, yeah. But it's like. It's like. Like these. It's like that's. This series is. You've been getting to watch. Yeah, Sorry. Yeah. In Rogue One. Yeah. It's like you've been getting to watch these people who have just been playing, like, kind of generic Star wars characters, and you get to watch them cook. And it is a thing of beauty.
- [147:24]
Listener 2
The real freak gets to be let out. They're all freaks.
- [147:30]
Listener 1
There's that glorious moment when she Realizes how fucked she is when he puts his finger on her head. Like she's just an ob. She's there for him to act off of.
- [147:42]
Listener 2
She's a button. Right?
- [147:43]
Listener 1
She's a button.
- [147:44]
Listener 2
We can push you when. We can push you when we desire to, but you don't go off by yourself. It's phenomenal.
- [147:51]
Listener 1
Yeah. And he's turning her off. Yeah.
- [147:54]
Advertiser
He has this line where he's like, you think I would come here for the death of an ISB clerk?
- [147:59]
Listener 2
Say the word phenomenal.
- [148:01]
Listener 1
Yes. Say the word Death Star. Yeah.
- [148:05]
Listener 2
Amazing.
- [148:06]
Listener 1
And then, yeah, he turns her off and is like, yeah, we'll get, we'll get by without you somehow.
- [148:10]
Listener 2
Yeah. Hopefully we'll be able to get by without you.
- [148:14]
Listener 1
Yeah. And it's both funny because like he is just. He is nuking her. There's nothing left after this. And also they captured. They actually fucked. He's dead in like two days.
- [148:29]
Listener 2
Tarkin's about to obliterate his ass.
- [148:32]
Listener 1
Tarkin's about to give me face dust along with y and everyone else. Yes, everyone's a button.
- [148:38]
Listener 2
And it's crazy how much of like the ISB gets totally wiped out. Like the week of the Death Star's destruction. And like this shows like the real decline of the Empire is this like this like administrative bureaucratic state that's been running the real day to day operations gets completely wiped out.
- [148:53]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [148:53]
Listener 2
And now these two like sith lunatics have to personally run everything themselves. And they can't do it. They just can't. They were, they were relying on all of like the Republic holdovers that actually knew how to like run it, like run a state.
- [149:06]
Listener 1
Yeah. These guys like Yularen and whatnot who were like good at his job. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Oh, part of guess.
- [149:14]
Listener 2
And they, they, they all get iced out.
- [149:17]
Listener 1
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [149:18]
Advertiser
I mean, and this is, this is a dynamic that I think like, because like everyone, you were trained from birth in the US to know the like the revolution devours its children thing. And the Empire talks about this side of the Empire. It's like, no, the liquidation rate for these people is astonishing. They also all like turn for these people. And it's like you can, you can watch like Vader doing this to people where like Vader, like. Yeah, Vader just keeps fucking killing his.
- [149:43]
Listener 2
Officers on his Super Star Destroyer all the time.
- [149:46]
Listener 1
Well, and what we see throughout Andor is rebels fuck up all the time. They fail all the time. We see moments of failure from Luthen, we see them from Cassian, We See them from Draven and guys at Endor, Bail Mon Mothma, they all fuck up. And then they get the chance to learn from their mistakes and get better, which is ultimately why they win.
- [150:09]
Listener 2
That privilege is never extended. No, to the Empire.
- [150:12]
Listener 1
Even if you're really good, you're going to make some mistakes. And the first time you do, Darth Vader chokes you to death. And so the Empire never gets better.
- [150:22]
Advertiser
It's interesting because this was a point in the old canon where, like, one of the. One of their arguments of, like, why the rebels won the war was like, X Wings have shields.
- [150:31]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [150:31]
Advertiser
And TIE fighters don't.
- [150:32]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [150:33]
Advertiser
And you can. So you can make a mistake in an X Wing, but if you make it, say a TIE fighter, you just died. So the rebel pilots end up being better than the Imperial ones because they survive. And there's this other like. Like, there are lots of these interesting parallels too, where, like, the death of the administrative state was also sort of an old canon thing, where it's like. So the way it plays out in the old canon is like, at Endor. And this, like, is the thing in the new canon too, I guess. But, like, all of the best officers are trying to get promoted up the ladder, and so they're all on the Emperor. The Emperor. Super Star Destroyer.
- [151:00]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [151:00]
Advertiser
And when that thing goes down, it's like, yeah, it like. And this is. This is partially just a thing of. Also about, like, how Imperial administration works is how centralized it is, is that they have single points of failure. And this is, for example, how Rhodesia fell.
- [151:11]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [151:12]
Advertiser
It's like, yeah, they put all those.
- [151:12]
Listener 1
Fuel reserves and it's like, we don't.
- [151:16]
Advertiser
Have a state anymore because everything's so centralized. And it being so centralized and everyone being so essential. And also you killing all these people because your organization doesn't tolerate failure, it just increases this cascading failure points where you knock out a couple of people on it and suddenly it's like everything's destroyed.
- [151:31]
Listener 2
I do want to return to the point of kind of how fascism, like, eats its own at the end because Tony has some quotes on that. I'm just going to speed run through these next few kind of of points here. The ICE BE tracks Clay's movements via hospital security cameras. Even though she tries to avoid and evade detection, she is basically stuck on Coruscant and starts hiding out in the old safe house, broadcasting an emergency pulse code to her comrades on Yavin. Meanwhile, a divorced Cassian and Melchi get drunk and start bullying their autistic robot friend while playing poker.
- [152:03]
Listener 1
So good. So funny in such cases.
- [152:07]
Listener 2
Hey, I know. Oh, I know. I'm well aware.
- [152:10]
Advertiser
I am the so over autistic girl in every one of these things.
- [152:13]
Listener 1
Well, and they understand the most important thing about television sci fi. Which is a robot awkwardly playing poker with his human friends.
- [152:21]
Listener 2
I know. It's a core of the great data K2SO holding hands meme.
- [152:29]
Listener 1
And I love that K2SO is also constantly being like, you guys are drinking a lot. You guys are. And yeah, I love that when they're about to go on this last mission, Cassian is. Is canonically drunk driving through space.
- [152:42]
Listener 4
He is.
- [152:43]
Listener 1
He is one half shot away from blacking out. It's time to pilot a spacecraft.
- [152:48]
Listener 2
Most, most realistic insertions.
- [152:52]
Advertiser
Like no one will be this drunk again until like like many, many years later in.
- [152:57]
Listener 1
In.
- [152:58]
Advertiser
In this galaxy. Until like there's. Until like civil war generals are fighting each other's next step. A will be this drunk.
- [153:05]
Listener 1
Yeah. Ulysses Simpson Grant is the last person to be as drunk as Cassian andor was in this scene.
- [153:12]
Listener 2
Wilman's old like luthen radio goes off with an SOS message. She takes it to Cassian, who then, yeah, drunk drives their Ewing off Yavin.
- [153:22]
Listener 1
And let's have a shout out to our man Draven here, who is.
- [153:26]
Listener 2
He's kind of. He's kind of. He's kind of based. I like Draven.
- [153:31]
Listener 1
I love that they managed to. To both make him be. He has to be the foil to Cassian because Cassian does not want this chain of command.
- [153:39]
Listener 2
He's so sympathetic, but he's not wrong.
- [153:41]
Listener 1
And he's not a dick. He's like, look, man, I've got like 400 other freighters I'm worried about right now. There's like shipments of rifles that I. That I have to keep. I have to keep all of this in my head. I can't write any of it down. I haven't slept in days. I eat nothing but Tums. Like, I can't even drink hot coffee because otherwise my ulcers light up on fire. I don't even remember when I ate solid food. My IBS has ibs. Can you please stop taking off in.
- [154:09]
Listener 2
The middle of the night? It's so funny that the thing that Cassian does at the end of Rogue One is just like a regular curvace on the yanking face.
- [154:17]
Host
He just keeps doing this.
- [154:20]
Listener 2
But no, like, like consistently Draven even. Even if he gets pissed off at Cassian, consistently has his back still which is, I think, really, really sweet.
- [154:29]
Listener 1
Yes.
- [154:30]
Advertiser
Yeah.
- [154:30]
Listener 2
Krennic realizes how fucked they are and. And tries to get. Tries to get the entire ISP to mobilize to locate Clea, as she is probably in possession of the Death Star intel. Quote, there will be no horizon to the scope of your inquiry. And this is where we have some of the most interesting stuff from Partagaz and how he views, like, rebellions and revolutions as a disease.
- [154:53]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [154:54]
Listener 2
And. And this relates to some of his lines from season one, where he describes the ISB as, quote, unquote, health care providers. We treat sickness, we identify symptoms, we locate germs, whether they arise from within or have come from the outside. The longer we wait to identify a disorder, the harder it is to treat the disease. Unquote.
- [155:13]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [155:13]
Listener 2
And then when the ISP decides on what grounds they are looking to apprehend Clea, Partigrass proclaims that, quote, she's diseased. She escaped the hospital with an infectious condition that threatens everyone with. With whom she may come into contact, unquote.
- [155:29]
Advertiser
I'm so glad they did this, because this is such a core part of the ideology of fascism. Right? Of seeing. Of seeing that the body as a nation and there being these sort of, like, parasitic infections that are inside the nation that are, like, undermining it.
- [155:41]
Listener 2
That's.
- [155:42]
Advertiser
That's like, just the core of fascism. And you're just getting. You're just getting to watch, like, the people in the middle of the Empire just literally trying to do the thing in the most literal way possible. Right. Like, they're just. They're just coming out and saying what the ideology is and how it works. And I. I may. It may still be a level of metaphor that is slightly too high for the average Star wars viewer, but they are just telling you the politics.
- [156:08]
Listener 2
Yeah.
- [156:08]
Advertiser
And I really appreciate that.
- [156:10]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [156:11]
Listener 2
Now, while stuck in an ISB holding cell with. With. With an unbuttoned collar, Dedra is crashing out. And you can tell because the collar's unbuttoned. But somehow she's still able to give the ISB a lead to track Clea through her use of obscure radio signals.
- [156:27]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [156:28]
Listener 2
One of the cool parts here is an Imperial radio technician is impressed at Luthen's radio setup and can't help but be excited when, like, learning how it works. But they say that Luthen targeted the storage files and the radio signal library when he burned the console. But still, they were able to track Clea's pulse code to a nearby apartment on Coruscant. And in preparation for the raid on the safe house, the ice be jams comms around the area. Right as Cassian, Melchi and K2 arrive to extract Claya. As Cassian gets into the apartment and finds not Luthen but Clea and tries to plead with her to come to Yavin, he also like, kind of lambasts Luthen for. For not coming to Gavin sooner because he couldn't swallow his pride. And Claya says, quote, thank the galaxy he didn't. He stayed for this. The people in Yavin have to know what they're up against. Thank. Thank the galaxy. He did it.
- [157:26]
Advertiser
So good.
- [157:28]
Listener 2
All right, let's go on break and then we'll return to discuss the final episode. Okay, we are back. Episode 12 Jeddah Kyber Erso so Cass is trying to convince Claya to leave, like right now, right this very second. Please, dear God, come with me.
- [157:53]
Advertiser
And.
- [157:53]
Listener 2
And Clay is still like kind of pissed about the whole situation. Like Gavin, after all these years. What a bitter ending. Cass tries to argue that that if she comes, she's helping to keep Luthen alive, which she calls big words. The Imperial SWAT team. Importantly, not stormtroopers. Instead, these goofy ass SWAT guys surround the apartment trying to locate Kleya. As the ISB locates Cass, Kleya and Melchi, they throw a stun grenade, which this is very interesting to me, does not really affect Cass and Melchi as much like Clea gets knocked out. But the Narkina 5 prison shocks conditioned Melchi and Cass against the stun grenade, which is again, phenomenal.
- [158:39]
Listener 1
It's so good. And I think just generally like Clea has again, Luthan has protected her from a lot of like the direct. She doesn't have CTE, right? If Cassian had lived another 30 years, like his fucking brain would have been melting because he's been around too many goddamn explosions and he's been electrocuted. And the same thing's true of Melchi, right? They just barely feel it.
- [159:02]
Advertiser
To be fair, it's not like she hasn't blown up a bunch of things.
- [159:04]
Listener 2
In like a distance. From a distance.
- [159:06]
Listener 1
From a distance.
- [159:07]
Listener 4
Yeah.
- [159:07]
Advertiser
We just watch her liquidate an entire Imperial security complement to go kill Luthen. Like, it's not like she hasn't done this.
- [159:14]
Listener 1
No, no, no. But she's raised by an old soldier who does the responsible thing that you do if you have the experience, which is you tell the younger people, no, no, no. Use your ear pro. No, get further back. I know you don't think you need to be, but get further back. Like, my ears ring all the time. Don't fucking take ring risks. I also kind of wonder if maybe there's the level of protection from the stun grenades you get again when you are still right on the edge of a blackout.
- [159:46]
Listener 2
Yeah, that's compelling. So as K2 just completely demolishes this Imperial riot team, the ISB calls for backup, but everyone is spread too thin because they're out searching for the emergency disease warrant from Pardigraph. Amazing.
- [160:07]
Advertiser
So good.
- [160:08]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [160:08]
Listener 2
So Clea does get to Yavin, and here we see a lot more of, like, the. The tricky aspects of Yavin politics. Saw is kind of getting impossible to deal with. He is huffing way too much fuel.
- [160:22]
Listener 1
He's huffing an amount of fuel. I don't know if I'm going to say it's too much, but I do love his insistence where they're like, dude, we know you're. We know you're Unjeda.
- [160:30]
Listener 2
He's like, we know you're un.
- [160:31]
Listener 1
No idea where I am.
- [160:33]
Listener 2
You don't know where I am. You know? Yeah. Mon's trying to, like, argue with him about. About how they're trying to like, get to the bottom of, like, the Imperial kyber mining on Jedha. And they're like, we know you're on Jedha. And he tries to deny it. You. You don't know where I am. Yes, we do.
- [160:49]
Advertiser
There's also this great thing at the end of that where Mothma's like, we're just trying to help you. And then. And Saw just cuts the lime and I think it's Draven. Whatever. The rebel intelligence ghoul in the room cuts the line and Moss was kind of just going like. And he goes, oh, no. We've absolutely been sending spies into his group.
- [161:09]
Listener 4
And she's been moths kind of.
- [161:11]
Listener 1
We've been bugging him. He's absolutely right.
- [161:14]
Advertiser
This is something I think is interesting about because, like, in Rogue One, Saw is like, seems like such an unbelievably paranoid asshole. It's like, no. The rebels really have been trying to. The rebels and the Empire really have been trying to infiltrate his group for like, so fucking long that he's completely lost his mind from just, like, the paranoia.
- [161:33]
Listener 1
Also, he is canonically again, 46.
- [161:39]
Listener 2
I think all that fuel really does rapid age you.
- [161:42]
Listener 1
Yeah, yeah. It's not great for you.
- [161:44]
Listener 2
So then we have, I guess, the most frustrating part of the episode. Like, good, but frustrating to watch with this, this. This rebel spokes Council meeting. About Luthen and the Death Star intel. Oh, my God. Are these people annoying?
- [161:57]
Listener 1
Oh, yeah.
- [161:58]
Listener 2
What pieces of shit. These people. These people who have, like, done basically nothing. Yeah, they're senators who's, like, who's. Who have. Who have defected to Yavin and they don't know the cost of things that they're actually dealing in. Bael says that Luthen stayed on Coruscant too long. And again, no, no, Luthen stayed for this piece of information. And Mon's getting kind of increasingly frustrated as everyone's kind of like, bad talking Luthen again. We've been very clear on the show about Luthen as a complicated character, with some people more pro Luthen than others. And Mon, like, Mon herself, has a lot of reservations about Luthen, but she also knows her directly. And everyone else are only here in part because of what he's done. That's not saying he was right about every single thing. But that still is true, right? He is still very important to them. And everyone's being quite dismissive of Cassian and the intel from Luthen. And Cassian kind of gets, you know, put into confinement and gets dismissed and requests to visit Klea in the hospital. And this is where Mon finally speaks up and immediately grants him permission because, like, she knows all these people and she's the only one on this little council that knows all of these people and knows how much they have sacrificed. Sufficed. Yeah, but still, like, Mon is still, like, a good operator here, and she asks her cousin Vel to, like, talk with Cassian and, like, suss out how real this Death Star intel is. When Vel does this, she doesn't try to do it, like, covertly. She, like, talks to. Talks to Cassie very, like, flatly being like, hey, like, Mon sent me here to try to figure out if this is legit. Is this legit? And they discuss the intel. Meanwhile, Cleia gets up from, like, her, like, medical. Medical bay and starts walking around Yavin in the rain. And, like, oh, my God, somebody please hug her. Like, someone, like, do something. Like, she should not be left alone. Like, she's had one of the. One of the most traumatic days of. Of her life. Someone, like, take care of her. And Vel runs into Kleya. And, like, Vel and Cleia have had, like, kind of a. Kind of like a dicey relationship. But, like, in this moment, we see just the importance of sheer solidarity. And Sill cares for her, gets her to cover, gives her a place to sleep, and it's a really touching scene.
- [164:20]
Advertiser
And I want to talk about this moment a little bit because I think it's an interesting character thing with Clea here, where Clay, throughout this entire show is the only character who has been put together the entire time.
- [164:28]
Listener 2
Yeah.
- [164:29]
Advertiser
Even Partagast at the very end starts to sort of crack. Right. Clea is the one character who, when everyone is falling apart around her, when Andor is falling apart, even when Luthen.
- [164:40]
Listener 2
Is falling apart, always on it. You pull yourself together.
- [164:43]
Advertiser
You have to hold this together.
- [164:45]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [164:45]
Advertiser
And. And it's like her. And you get to this point, like, her task.
- [164:48]
Listener 2
This is when she's finally is able to break.
- [164:50]
Listener 1
Yeah, yeah.
- [164:50]
Listener 2
She's been holding in so much.
- [164:52]
Advertiser
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, one, her task is finally over and so she can, like, let herself fall apart. And two, it's like a thing that could finally actually drive her to fall apart is the fact that she just had to.
- [165:04]
Listener 2
She had to kill Luther.
- [165:05]
Advertiser
Kill the person who raised her. Yeah, she had to fucking kill Lutheran and then get out. And you can see this thing where that, I think, is, like, very familiar to a lot of people where, like, she's been. And she also has to hold all this information in her head because if she forgets any of the information that she's been told by Lutheran, the rebellion is doomed. And when Andor, like, first meets her on Coruscant, she's just, like, spilling out, spilling it out. She's spilling out this jumble of words. Yeah. And it's like. And it's this thing where, like, she's finally reached the point where it's like she has one last thing to do and she can fall apart. And then she can finally, instead of having to be the one who's caring for literally everyone and holding literally everyone else together, she can finally, like, rest. And she doesn't know how to do that because she's always had to be the one who's holding everything together this entire time.
- [165:50]
Listener 2
I do love the moment when Luthen first gives her the information and he forces her to repeat it back to him. Make sure you can express it to me. And then she does the same thing to Cassian, and Cassian doesn't. Cassian doesn't repeat it back to her. And. But yeah, like, that small, like, you know, like, you have to have, like, a ritual. You have to have, like, you have. You have to have, like, a protocol to make sure you actually. Like to make sure that I know you actually have this information. You need to, like, express it back to Me?
- [166:14]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [166:15]
Listener 2
It's just a nice little short moment in the next morning, we see Cassian taking care of Byx's plants. Good for him.
- [166:22]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [166:23]
Listener 2
And then this is when Cass and Vel talk, and they say that they're gonna drink Teluthen just this once. Which, again, Cassian's drinking right. In the morning. Good stuff.
- [166:33]
Listener 4
As soon as he wakes up.
- [166:36]
Listener 1
Like he does every day. Yes.
- [166:39]
Listener 2
But. But they say, like, we can't toast them all. Like Lieutenant Gorn, Nemec, Cinta F. Marva Gorman, the Eldhanis. And one. One short little tidbit here. Vel talks about how there's people falsely claiming that they were part of the Aldani crew, which is the most accurate thing I have ever seen.
- [167:02]
Advertiser
Yeah.
- [167:03]
Listener 1
Where they're like, everybody keeps taking credit for this. And she's like, man, if someone did that in front of me, I just shoot their ass.
- [167:09]
Listener 2
Kill them.
- [167:10]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [167:11]
Listener 2
They are the only two people from the Aldhani raid still. Still alive. And, like. Yeah. Like, the idea that we're getting, like, rebel stolen valor is. But very realistic. You know, I actually. I actually punched Richard Spencer as, like. As like a 14 year old.
- [167:25]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [167:26]
Listener 2
It's very, very cool.
- [167:29]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [167:30]
Listener 2
We then start hearing Nemec's manifesto playing, and it's unclear if they're playing it, like, for the show, but then to.
- [167:37]
Listener 1
Remind us of it. Yeah.
- [167:38]
Listener 2
But then we realized that it's Partagas listening in the Imperial Security Bureau's breathing room. And it's. It's a really wonderful thing to return to.
- [167:48]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [167:49]
Listener 2
And one of paragraph's like, you know, underlings walks up to him and says, like, it just keeps spreading, doesn't it? And he says it's been hard to contain. Again, using this, like, a disease, like, rhetoric, he then asks for a moment to collect himself and then shoots himself in the head. This is one of the most fascinating parts of the show, like. Like knowing, like, the kind of the. The terror that he's gonna face for, like. For failing, while also being confronted with, like, how much of his work for the Empire has been worth it. Like, it's not. His emotions here are not clearly laid out to you because it's more interesting for you to think about them yourself.
- [168:30]
Listener 1
Yeah. And I've seen everything from, like, oh, he realizes he was wrong to, he realizes, like, the Empire is the disease, or just, he realizes the disease got out of control, like, more than they had realized. But either way.
- [168:44]
Listener 2
And the punishment he could be facing from the Empire is not worth it. Like, he is he is. He's a career man. And why would he be sent to Narkina5? Like he is not going to El Salvador. Finally, Cassian is sent to meet a source on Kefring. That's. That's one of the guys infiltrating Saw's operation to learn the location of Galen Erso, the designer of the Death Star. And then we have this final montage across all of our characters. We have Mon and Vel having breakfast with the grunts. You have divorced Perrin flying around on Coruscant. You have Dedra in a Narkina prison. And Cleia gets to see the life of the rebellion. Saw's at Jedha, Krennic is at the Death Star. B2EMO has a new friend. And Byx is holding a baby, watching the sunrise.
- [169:35]
Listener 1
Uh huh.
- [169:36]
Listener 2
So I want to talk mostly about Byx here, but first I think Mon eating with the rebel troops is like very cool to have her just like with the regular people. She's not with Bael and not often a special counselor's room. She's just with everyone. We'll also talk a little bit about Cleia here as well, but I think I want to just do Bix to start, if that's okay.
- [169:59]
Advertiser
Sure, sure.
- [170:00]
Host
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [170:01]
Listener 2
So Tony has talked a lot about this ending scene, about how he wanted to end with a sense of hope and the hope for life beyond the Empire, life beyond imperial oppression. And Byx with the baby is supposed to symbolize this. And Byx is literally looking at the sunrise. Right. And this metaphor of the sunrise has been something for Luthen, how he's never gonna actually get to see life beyond the Empire. And he knows that he sacrificed that. It also calls into view Cassian dying at the false sunrise of the Death Star. And I've seen, I guess some people upset about Biff just, you know, being like off planet with a baby and feeling this is kind of like relegating her character. And I. I think there's a lot of things going on here. This show goes so, so like way, way beyond like simple politics of like, of like representation and like woke casting. Right. Which can often end up feeling like shallow boxes to check because this show actually like depicts things like carceral injustice, manufactured consent for genocide, how structural patriarchy drives imperial oppression. Like the depth of the political mechanisms the show is tackling, I think is so much more worthwhile. And it's not immune to criticism for those reasons. But I think that aspect can be overlooked, oddly. I think we kind of like Take for granted how good the show is at so many aspects of politics. And this show specifically has women in so many different roles beyond, like, the, you know, pop feminist girl boss badass, which has been linked to Star wars through Leia Ahsoka and to a lesser extent, like Rey and Jyn. And this trope is itself kind of low key, misogynistic. But in Andor, we have. We have Mon Mothma, we have Vel, we have Cinta, we have Cleo, we have Dedra, we have Marva, we have Bix. And I think motherhood is something that characters should be allowed to embrace. And, like, motherhood's always had a very tricky relationship with Star wars because of Padme. But, like, being. Being a mom is not the issue with Bix's character. You can still critique how she was relegated to becoming, like, the punching bag for the show, but being a mother is, like, not bad. There's a quote from the Palestinian militant Layla Khalid. Like, revolution must mean life, also every aspect of life. And she specifically referenced motherhood. And, like, Bix is a fighter. She's a survivor. She. She fights her way out of depression and ptsd, and she does spend years engaged in revolutionary action. And yes, it may have been nice to see more of that revolutionary action on screen. We do see some. It might have been nice. But this is also a limited series show with a ton of characters, like 400 speaking roles, and that has not been afforded to everybody. And that can be unfortunate. But I think I understand what's going on with this character, and I do not. I do not think the problem is the baby itself. I think that's actually fine. And her deciding after years of fighting to take, like, a few years off to have a baby should be viewed as a choice that, like, she's, like, allowed to make, I guess.
- [173:08]
Listener 1
I also think there's. There's something like, there's a lot of agency in the choice to, like, I'm done, but I'm not gonna make that decision for this other person.
- [173:17]
Listener 2
For Cassian. Yeah.
- [173:18]
Listener 1
Yeah. But I don't know. It's scanned to me. I do like thinking that in this last scene, as we're watching these last bits of all our characters, not only, as people have pointed out, is Cassian gonna be dead in two days, along with Ben Mendelsohn and shortly thereafter, Grand Moff Tarkin. But like, all the other stuff that's canonically going down right as fucking Clea sees that first sunrise, you have to imagine Han Solo somewhere is doing a line off of like, like a space prostitute in some sleazy bar. It's like 4am in the morning where he is. He hasn't slept in days. You know, Luke Skywalker is looking at his aunt and uncle being like, well, they're never going to be lit on fire, obviously. Just beautiful.
- [174:01]
Listener 2
To kind of reiterate on the point about how like, fascism also eats its own. This is something that Tony has discussed before, specifically in relation to like Cyril and Dedra and Partagra, right. Tony says, like, quote, fascism doesn't just take down the oppressed. It doesn't just come for the people it's trying to control. It inevitably destroys the people who have worked the hardest to build it. And that's been true all through history as well. In a different interview, he says the Empire is just shattering, fragmenting, grabbing, destroying and taking. And then the people that are doing it on the Imperial side are all isolated. They think they're part of something, but really they're not. Look at what happens to Dedra. Look at what happens to Partagrass. Look what happens to Cyril Karn. He tries to believe in the dream. It's the carelessness and the cruelty and the lack of empathy. That's what I'm pitching. Even in this little final montage, we have this brief shot of Perrin, which is interesting. That's Mon Mothma's estranged husband, I guess. And Tony has discussed Perrin as well. And during like the wedding scene, we learned that like as a kid, like while he was in school, he was kind of a quote, unquote, political firebrand. And he has sacrificed that a little bit. Tony says, quote, there are a lot of sacrifices in this show. All variety of sacrifices. He's made his sacrifice for hedonism. He doesn't look happy in that car, unquote. No, I do like the little wrap up we have, we have on Perrin's character there.
- [175:23]
Listener 1
Although I also love, if you'll notice, he's with the wife of the guy they married their daughter off to. You have to assume has gotten purged at this point because they realized that he had been funneling funds to the rebellion. But I do like, we even get that this is the only little priority private rebellion that he, he can manage right now as he's. He's fucking this guy's wife.
- [175:45]
Listener 2
Everyone has, everyone has their own rebellion.
- [175:48]
Listener 1
Yeah. Oh man.
- [175:50]
Listener 2
I guess I finally like, I, at least for me, I guess part of me wanted to see more of like the development of Yavin as like how like revolutionary cells come together. And Tony has Addressed this as well. Quote, Yavin makes me nervous, if you want to know the truth. There's things about Yavin that make me nervous and the logic about Yavin that makes me nervous. Even. Even within the Star wars canon and the security there and how some people know about it, but the ISP doesn't know about it. And there's some places where you don't want to poke too aggressively because you don't really want to get into the undercarriage. That was a place where I didn't really want to get into the undercarriage very much. That's. That is. That is understandable. And then finally, on Clay and Luthen and specifically, like, Clea's. Clea's last look there, like, in the morning after her walk in the rain, after all of this, you know, frustration between, like, Luthen and Yavin. Tony says, quote, clea and Luthen are over, amplifying the distrust and hate in the same way that some of the people on the alliance are overramping the disagreement. I think one of my favorite moments in that montage at the end is when Clea wakes up the next morning after her night in the rain, and she looks out and sees that there's people running and people carrying supplies. And she's seen how big Yavin is, is. And there's this Mona Lisa smile that she has that's almost beginning to take pleasure in some sense of ownership of what she's helped create. She realizes how much of a contributor, how much of an investor she and Luthen are in Yavin. She's watching the people there, and just a little moment of pride comes on her face that she warms up just a little bit and begins to take ownership of the rebellion. That's everything to me, unquote.
- [177:26]
Advertiser
There's something I love about Yavin, and you get to see sort of the beauty of it and the beauty of what's going to destroy the Empire, where it's like, you keep just seeing people who survived all of this shit and make it to Yavin. Like, Meshi is, like, the other survivor of the Narkina V prison break, right? And he's, like, one of the people going on with Andor. What's the other Rebellion twink's name? The kid who threw the brink.
- [177:53]
Listener 2
Willman.
- [177:53]
Advertiser
Yeah, Willman's French Resistance girlfriend makes it there. And, like, all of these, like, you get in this little microcosm of, like, all of these people who are, like, the survivors of all of these imperial sort of, like, horrors, like, have Gathered in this place and it's like these are the people who are going to destroy the Empire. And I think something really beautiful about that. And then I also think there's a really interesting thing in, in the Yavin politics we do see, which is that like you know, so like I get, I am notoriously the shows like Luthen hater. I'm not really a hater of Lutheran. I just, I just don't want the most annoying people in the world to try to replicate him in real life. But also like the central Rebel Command is a shit show. It's complete disaster. They're like top down hierarchical command from that council. Those people at every, every single instance of this attempt to lose the war, right? They're, they're too pissed off at Luthen to like listen to the information that he literally fucking died to give them.
- [178:46]
Listener 2
Right?
- [178:47]
Advertiser
Like this entire operation have been about giving them the information to destroy the superweapon that will destroy the Empire and they don't want to listen to it. Like in Rogue One, like that council tries to surrender. Like they literally vote to be like yeah, sorry, we can't fight the Empire. They're too strong. And then like the rebel military defects and is not defect. Like they stage an insurrection.
- [179:03]
Listener 2
They go rogue.
- [179:04]
Advertiser
They rebel. Yeah, they, they go rogue and they, and they're the ones who do this. And I think there's this interesting thing here that as much as Gilroy doesn't want to like touch Yavin that much, there's this, there's an interesting political dynamic of like. Yeah, okay, so like we finally developed this sort of like centralized political force capable of bringing all these things together together. And they're useless. They are worse than useless. They, they, they nearly destroy the rebellion that they had been sort of like trying to bring together on multiple occasions. And they're only stopped by doing that by these sort of like unhinged gorilla like people who are completely out of control and like these like rogue operator people who.
- [179:40]
Listener 1
Yeah, but fundamentally like the, the inheritors to Luthen's legacy. Right? Like which is Cassian. Yeah.
- [179:46]
Advertiser
By the actual rebels, not the fucking senators. And I think that's like a. Because I've been, I've been seeing, there's been, I've been seeing some small attempts to like recuperate Mon Moth, but for this it's like no Moth was the only senator who backs the. Like go for it. Like we're carrying out this, ready to seal the Death Star planche. Like she's the only One. Right. And I think there's. This is, this is like the actual fundamental break here is between these people is it's like, like when, when, when the chips are down, are you willing to fight? And most of the, the, the, the sort of like, like liberal sort of like defecting noble leadership isn't. Except for Mothma and she's just like. So basically at the end too is like I, I want to go down fighting.
- [180:31]
Listener 1
And that's the fundamental. I'm gonna go down swinging. Yeah.
- [180:34]
Advertiser
Yeah. And, and that's the fundamental difference between like someone who politically I don't like, like the Marquis de Lafayette yet like that went down swinging. Like he, that man at every single point of his life was always funding an insurrection, was always like, I will take.
- [180:49]
Listener 1
Yeah, let's throw a punch. Let's throw a punch. Let's throw a punch. Yeah.
- [180:52]
Advertiser
And then, and it's like you compare that to like the German liberals or like, like the liberals who, when Pinochet like takes power were like, yeah, when Pinochet called them all to like report to like have meetings with the government, they all went, yeah, we're going to go report to like talk to the secret police. And they all got like killed. Right. And that's the difference between those, those two things. And that I think is a really, really is a crucial political distinction to draw out is like, it's not even necessarily like your class background. It's not even necessarily like what your politics are because a lot of these people believe the same things. It's like when the chips come down, will you fight or will you try to surrender?
- [181:24]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [181:25]
Advertiser
And that's something I think, I don't know like that, that, that's to me the best part of Andor is like that and I think that's the part of it that's like being set up in this episode that I love.
- [181:35]
Listener 2
The, the very last thing I'll say because this has gone on way for, for quite a while is, is like I was talking with a friend after we watched these episodes and we were talking about how this show really in the end is a call for internationalism. Planets are stand ins for different countries and different cities, right? And like they aren't doing the full revolution on Coruscant. Like the center for Imperial Power, right? The Imperial Court. There is some organization happening there, right? Like there is people based out of there. There's networking, right. Like Luthen's intel shop is there. But most of like the physical armed struggle is on other planets. The first base for the alliance is built on Yavin 4. But the rebellion isn't initially like overthrowing the empire on Coruscant, though. Through their interplanetary efforts, the whole galaxy gets liberated and the seat of power can be seized. And that that sort of like galaxy wide cooperation mirroring like a worldwide cooperation that we have like really like lost past few decades. Yeah, I think is one of, I think one of the points that should be taken away from andor here.
- [182:40]
Listener 1
Yep. All right, well, I think that's our episode.
- [182:44]
Advertiser
Yep.
- [182:45]
Listener 1
Bye everybody.
- [183:04]
Listener 5
I have a question for you and I want you to be honest with me. How are you? It's a really hard question to ask. It's a harder one to answer. But taking care of our mental well being has never been more important. All of May is mental health awareness month, and on the psychology of your 20s podcast, we are taking a vulnerable look at what why mental health is so hard to talk about. And all the science and psychology behind some of life's hardest moments and transitions. Prepare for our conversations to go deep. Everything from grief to heartbreak, career burnout, anxiety, all of the things that you would only talk about with your closest friends.
- [183:41]
Listener 4
I spent the majority of my teenage.
- [183:44]
Listener 6
Years and my twenties just feeling absolutely terrified.
- [183:47]
Advertiser
I had a panic attack on conference.
- [183:49]
Listener 2
Call knowing that she had six months to live.
- [183:51]
Advertiser
I was no longer pretending that this was my best friend.
- [183:53]
Listener 5
So this mental health awareness month, take that extra bit of care of yourself and your brain. Listen to the psychology of your 20s on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [184:07]
Listener 7
Your gut microbiome and those healthy bacteria can actually have positive effects throughout your body. Not just your gut, but your mental health. Health, your metabolism, your immunity, your risk of cancer, heart disease, almost any disease under the sun.
- [184:21]
Listener 6
Yep, you heard right. Probiotics might actually impact everything from your brain to your heart. So what's science and what's just really good marketing? On this episode of dope Labs, me and Zakiya cut through the hype and get into the real deal behind probiotics, with help from gastroenterologist Dr. Roshi Raj.
- [184:40]
Listener 7
So, yes, bacteria is definitely having a moment, and I'm very excited about that.
- [184:44]
Listener 6
From probiotic drinks and gummies to face creams and pillows. Yep, we said pillows. The probiotic boom is everywhere. But how much of it actually works? And what does it all mean for your gut, your skin, and even your mood? Join us on dope labs where we break it all down in the lab like only we can listen to Dope Labs on iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you can get your podcasts.
- [185:09]
Listener 8
I know a lot of cops and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no.
- [185:24]
Listener 2
Across the country, cops called this Taser the revolution.
- [185:28]
Listener 8
But not everyone was convinced it was that simple.
- [185:31]
Listener 2
Cops believe, believed everything that Taser told me.
- [185:34]
Listener 8
From Lava for Good and the team that brought you Bone Valley comes a story about what happened when a multi billion dollar company dedicated itself to one visionary mission. This is Absolute season one, Taser Incorporated.
- [185:50]
Listener 1
I get right back there and it's bad.
- [185:53]
Listener 4
It's really, really, really bad.
- [185:56]
Listener 8
Listen to new episodes of Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge episodes 1, 2 and 3 on May 21 and episodes 4, 5 and 6 on June 4 ad free at Lava for Good. Plus on Apple Podcasts.
- [186:18]
Listener 3
In 2020, a group of young women in a tidy suburb of New York City found themselves in an AI fueled nightmare.
- [186:27]
Host
Someone was posting photos.
- [186:30]
Listener 2
It was just me naked.
- [186:31]
Listener 7
Well, not me, but me with someone else's body parts on my body.
- [186:35]
Listener 2
Parts that looked exactly like my own.
- [186:38]
Advertiser
I wanted to throw up.
- [186:39]
Listener 2
I wanted to scream.
- [186:40]
Listener 3
It happened in Levittown, New York. But reporting the series took us through the darkest corners of the Internet and to the front lines of a good global battle against deepfake pornography.
- [186:52]
Listener 6
This should be illegal, but what is this?
- [186:55]
Listener 3
This is a story about a technology that's moving faster than the law and about vigilantes trying to stem the tide. I'm Margie Murphy. And I'm Olivia Carville. This is Levittown, a new podcast from iHeart podcasts Bloomberg and Kaleidoscope. Listen to Levittown on Bloomberg's Big Take podcast. Find it on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [187:28]
Listener 2
This is it could happen here. Executive Disorder, our weekly newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world and what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis. Today I'm joined by Mia Wong, James Stout and stuff. Sophie Lichterman. This episode we are covering the week of May 15 to May 21. Joe Biden has prostate cancer, there's antinatalist terrorism and the DHS is maybe gonna do a reality TV show. Probably not, but it's a bad plan. How are we doing this week?
- [187:57]
Listener 7
That was a trifecta from Hell yeah.
- [188:00]
Advertiser
It's so bad. This one's so bad. It's, it's really, I, I, I have to do the laughing like right here because, because good Lord, like, oh, many, many of these weeks are bad. This one's particularly bad.
- [188:14]
Listener 7
I don't know. DHS reality show.
- [188:18]
Listener 2
We'll get to that at the, at the ending segment.
- [188:20]
Listener 7
Sure.
- [188:21]
Listener 2
Hey, this is G from the future cutting in. We recorded this a few hours before some pretty major news. The shooting of two Israeli embassy staff in dc. We will be talking about this in next week's Executive Disorder as well as the new budget bill which targets trans health care. Now back to the episode. I think let's start with, you know, a brief acknowledgment of Joe Biden's prostate cancer. What was Jill doing to him?
- [188:51]
Listener 4
Oh my God, Garrison, you could have said that. Start at the bottom and you didn't.
- [188:56]
Listener 2
I'm allowed to say that because I'm the most gay guy coded person on the podcast, which is saying something. So, so, yes. And now because we live in a truly sick world, Scott Adams couldn't even.
- [189:11]
Listener 7
Let, he couldn't let him have his moment.
- [189:14]
Listener 2
He couldn't even let Joe Biden have his moment. This anti Biden hatred has transcended so far that Scott Adams couldn't even let Biden have his moment. And announced the same day that Scott Adams has the exact same type of prostate cancer. So two, two, two. Down Biden down. Dilbert down. Big week for prostate cancer.
- [189:34]
Listener 7
And boy howdy have people been weir it on the Internet.
- [189:38]
Listener 2
Yeah, I'm not going to get into how long he maybe has known he's had it. He's, he's had skin cancer removed before. I think that ship has mostly sailed. I think our, our opinions on Biden are pretty, are pretty well, pretty well documented. So I, I don't think we can dedicate much more, much more time to this.
- [189:57]
Advertiser
Okay. The one important note that I will say is if you have a prostate, get checked for prostate cancer. Yeah, like, like get the screening. It's good. It'll help you.
- [190:05]
Listener 4
Unless you are over 75, in which case I think most people don't get screened for it. Right. Because it's slow growth.
- [190:12]
Listener 2
I'm pretty sure Biden's over 75.
- [190:14]
Listener 4
Yeah, that's why somewhat, I thought it was somewhat remarkable part of the issue there.
- [190:18]
Listener 7
I mean, all I could say is about once a month, I think about how at the DNC those thank you, Joe chants lasted four seconds.
- [190:27]
Listener 2
I have actually been thinking about the thank you, Joe. Chants for, For a lot of this time this week, frankly, you had to be there. Yeah, it's one of the most, it's one of the most horrifying, horrifying things as they let this like very clearly dying old man out to pasture because like, you know, cancer diagnosis aside, very clear, he was in some, some degree of decline. We don't need to retread this. This is, this is pretty well known. But no, I have been thinking about how that whole auditorium broke out in chanting thank you Joe. For like nearly five minutes.
- [191:00]
Listener 7
And then the following, the rest of the week, not a single mention. It was done that day. It was wild.
- [191:09]
Listener 2
Anyways, so yeah, Rip Dilbert, I guess let's move on to antinatalist terrorism. So I've learned this week that people don't know what antinatalism is, which as someone who grew up in Portland is kind of surprising to me because there was some very, very prominent like anti natalist protesters who would set up downtown outside of Powell's Books pretty frequently and we kind of all grew accustomed to them. And honestly I'm a little bit sympathetic to their arguments. I understand where they're coming from. Antinatalism is the belief that procreation is unethical. This could be based on the idea that there's been like this rapid increase in human population which has done extensive damage to the planet, or that simply being born is inherently a non consensual act act especially being born into a world with high levels of suffering. So these people opt to, to not have children. As this ethical standpoint. Everyone's entitled to their own choice. You don't need to agree with it, but whatever. Now, interestingly, this past weekend there was a quote unquote act of terrorism that has been linked to anti natalist philosophy. I'm just talking about this as it is an instance of kind of the brain rotification of this entire society and the Reddit nification of terrorism combined with this growing sense of like nihilism driving violent extremist actions. No one was killed except for the perpetrator or alleged perpetrator in this, in this incident. But I still think this is worth talking about as it can be seen as in a sequence of weird terrorism. This is something that Robert's going to be working on for a piece later. Later down the line. Right. This is not the first car bomb this year. We had the Tesla, Tesla cybertruck explosion earlier, which was similarly kind of a weird. A weird incident.
- [192:58]
Advertiser
Yeah, that one was, I think that Was I think was the official inauguration of the years of lead paint which we're perpetually living in now.
- [193:05]
Listener 2
Yes, yes. I mean the gas leak year, if you will.
- [193:08]
Listener 4
Yeah.
- [193:09]
Listener 2
So yes, on Saturday, May 17, the car bomb went off outside a fertility clinic clinic in Palm Springs, California, killing the suspect, 25 year old man named Guy Edwards Barkus. The FBI is calling this a quote unquote intentional act of terrorism. The clinic was closed when the explosion happened. The building was severely damaged, but no embryos were harmed. Investigators believe that the suspect attempted to live stream the bombing with a website being found online that appeared to be in connection to the incident where the suspect describes himself as a quote unquote quote pro mortalist.
- [193:43]
Listener 1
Slightly.
- [193:44]
Listener 4
Slightly different from anti natalism.
- [193:46]
Listener 2
Yeah, correct. It is, it is more of an affirmative version of antinatalism where you want to actually take concrete steps to like decrease the population of the planet. Yeah, not necessarily in a way that's like promoting like the mass killing of individuals. He says, quote, understand your death is already guarantee and you can thank your parents for that one. One all a pro mortalist is saying is let's make it happen sooner rather than later to prevent your future suffering and more importantly the suffering your existence will cause to all other sentient beings. That's his definition of a pro mortalist. It could be linked to other philosophies that encourage like self harm and ending your own life as a conscious choice. On his website he discussed his goal of quote sterilizing this planet of the disease of life, unquote, oh great. And declared the need for a quote unquote quote war against pro lifers. His website also highlights other philosophies such as negative utilitarianism, ethylism, abolitionist veganism, quote basically philosophies that have realized religion is r worded that there is objective value in the universe and it lies in the harm being experienced by sentient beings. So although it may seem, quote unquote dark, it's the polar opposite of nonsense like nihilism, unquote.
- [195:09]
Advertiser
Right.
- [195:10]
Listener 2
Negative utilitarianism is something that comes up a few times on his site as well. This is the viewpoint that instead of positive utilitarianism where we try to maximize, you know, human pleasure, this is trying to minimize suffering, human suffering and like the suffering tied to existence and the like aggregate suffering as well is if you, if there's more people then there's going to be more suffering. So you should both make choices in your own life that, that, that may, that may limit your suffering but also make sure that you don't reproduce because then even more suffering will happen because of your actions through your children.
- [195:44]
Advertiser
This is the most Bay Area I've.
- [195:46]
Listener 2
Ever heard in my entire goddamn very west coast.
- [195:49]
Advertiser
This is.
- [195:50]
Listener 4
Yeah, 29 palms is not, it's not the west Coast.
- [195:54]
Listener 2
Like a lot of this is in conversation with like the rationalist subculture host rationalist. It's like it offers different solutions.
- [196:01]
Advertiser
These, these people shouldn't be allowed to use computers for like 50 years. Like just a ban on California using computers.
- [196:08]
Listener 2
This is all like, like deeply online stuff. Like these are, these, these are popular websites, subreddits, like YouTube channels. These are people who are dealing with like, you know, pretty intense existentialism, depression, who then channel it into this like semi niche, like online community and online philosophy. Now, Guy's best friend, a self described quote vegan, rad femme antinatalist, recently arranged her own suicide by having her boyfriend shoot her while she was. What, what, what? Correct. Yes, this was, this was the, the bomber's best friend who died very recently like last month. And Guy claims that they were both quote, unquote, anti sex misandrists with borderline personality disorder. And he admits that her death, quote unquote, put him over the edge.
- [197:05]
Advertiser
This is the most, this is the most online like, like best vegan rad femme, vegan radfem best friend, antinatalist, has her boyfriend shoot her is the most.
- [197:21]
Listener 2
Even though her antinatalist Tumblr page has, has like women loving women, anti gender ideology, misandry stuff and yet still has a cisgender boyfriend in many such cases. So yeah, you can see how this type of a community gets like fostered and people make online friends that encourage their own self destruction.
- [197:39]
Advertiser
Yeah, we have to destroy the Internet.
- [197:41]
Listener 2
A quote that he has on his website is quote, I've known for years now that I wasn't going to allow myself to make it past my 20s, unquote. And like this is a sentiment I hear even a lot of, of like young people saying, is this like this like belief that they're not gonna survive their 20s? Like, like their belief that like the world is so bent on destruction that I'm probably not gonna make it out of my 20s right now and that that changes the kind of choices that young people are making and this is, this is getting increasingly common.
- [198:08]
Listener 4
Yeah, for sure. I think it's a very different world to be growing up in than like the late teenage, early 20s of you.
- [198:16]
Listener 2
Know, like millennial people people, the millennial world. It's very, it's very different.
- [198:19]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [198:19]
Listener 2
And you even had manifestations of this in that millennial era. Right. It got kind of pushed into this like, like nihilist school shooter culture, which you still see remnants of now in the true crime community there. There is some crossover between an act like this and, and some of like the school shooter fandom, the Columbiner stuff, especially considering the resurgence of Columbiner culture that we're currently seeing right now in the United States.
- [198:42]
Advertiser
States.
- [198:43]
Listener 2
But yeah, the, the general sense of like widespread dread and the interconnectedness of this is more unique.
- [198:50]
Advertiser
I keep thinking about that Hunter S. Thompson quote about like those poor bastards who are born after 9, 11 don't know the party's over.
- [198:56]
Listener 2
The party is over.
- [198:57]
Advertiser
And yeah, welcome to hell.
- [198:59]
Listener 2
So the suspect's dad said to reporters that Guy had a childhood obsession with pyrotechnics. He set the family home on fire and burned it down. He was nine. He made rockets, stink bombs, smoke bombs as a child. Videos on YouTube likely posted by Guy show M80s exploding in the desert, a hydrogen balloon being set ablaze, and a bucket of radioactive uranium ore. Is that.
- [199:22]
Listener 4
What did he obtain that like out there in Wonder Valley?
- [199:24]
Listener 2
This is still being investigated. His voice in these videos matches the 30 minute audio manifesto explaining his motivation for the attack. Attack saying, quote, basically it just comes down to I'm angry that I exist and that, you know, nobody got my consent to bring me here. Basically I'm anti life. And IVF is kind of like the epitome of pro life ideology, unquote.
- [199:49]
Listener 7
This is out there.
- [199:52]
Listener 4
Is there any information on the. Just because a lot of explosives and other munitions have gone missing. 29 Palms, for people not familiar, is a town near ish to Palm Springs, nearer to Joshua Tree.
- [200:05]
Listener 2
There's a large military base.
- [200:07]
Listener 4
Yeah, yeah, it's the big Marine Corps like desert warfare training.
- [200:10]
Listener 2
Explosives have gone missing there before. The base claims that they've been recovered. It is unclear what explosives he used at this point. It was a pretty large explosion. Investigators are low key, impressed at this explosion. Like it was, it was what they.
- [200:25]
Listener 4
Said in their like official statement. Statement.
- [200:27]
Listener 2
If you read between the lines, they're like surprised at how effective this car bomb was. Again, this was a guy who spent a lot of time online, a lot of time on Reddit. It seems like he got obsessed with this. He had a fascination with explosives at a young age. So that obsession combined with this antinatalist obsession and this urge for self destruction manifested in this action. Yeah, this, this Week. Reddit banned. Antinatalist, anti life subreddit allegedly frequented wanted by bomber.
- [200:53]
Listener 4
Oh, I do just want to say that this is, I think, the only IVF clinic in the Coachella Valley. So, like, for people who are accessing those services, that's a serious disruption. Right. Yeah, it sucks.
- [201:06]
Listener 2
So I, I, me and Robert are gonna talk more about kind of this trend that we're seeing in, in extremism or, or in extremist acts. I still don't like the nihilist violent extremism term, but we are seeing elements of that getting more and more common, especially combined with the true crime community, which essentially tries to encourage young girls to commit school shootings.
- [201:26]
Listener 4
Yeah, I guess to finish up, I do just want to say that, like, I know it's a really hard time right now. A lot of people are trying to find ways to cope or feeling like they can't cope or feel like they're not enough.
- [201:37]
Listener 2
I guess hopelessness, this sort of like existential nihilism.
- [201:41]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [201:41]
Listener 4
And combine that with a lot of people who work for the government finally finding themselves out of work and, and you know, the economic pressure that puts on people. And I understand that people are pretty in a tough spot right now. Do want to say very briefly, obviously, like, the world is more beautiful with you in it and if you're experiencing suicidal ideation or mental health struggles. A couple of resources that I wanted to suggest are the Fireweed Collective and the Jane Adams Collective. Adams spelled with two Ds. There a double D A M, S. We will have links to both of them in the show notes. You can also put them into DuckDuckGo. And they were the first responses that came out, came up for me. If you need those resources, reach out to those people.
- [202:21]
Advertiser
Yeah. It's good to see the sunrise. And it's better to see the sunrise with everyone you love in it. And that's a thing that you can make sure you do every day.
- [202:32]
Listener 2
All right, thank you, James. Thank you, Mia. We're gonna go on break and then come back to discuss immigration. All right, we're back. James, I, I see the, the amount of text you have.
- [202:55]
Listener 7
This is a very long section, James.
- [202:58]
Listener 4
Wall of text.
- [202:59]
Listener 2
I assume this is all good news, so let's, let's hear it.
- [203:03]
Listener 4
All right, Garrison, I'm so glad that you have seen my wall of text because I have been looking giga court documents for days. So much fun on pacer.
- [203:12]
Listener 2
You have been pacer posting in the group chat.
- [203:15]
Listener 4
Oh, yeah, yeah. I have been the court Listener as well. Okay, so this is one of the more insane things I've seen on PACER in a minute. I'm talking about the case here of Mr. NM who was identified at some point. And we'll get to nm. Nm, yeah. It's not uncommon for migrants in these kind of high profile cases to be anonymized where they can. Right. Just for their safety. So NM received a final removal order in Nebraska in 2023. And on the 7th of May, DHS attempted to report NM to Libya. You'll remember that we covered that that week's ed. Right. They did not manage to do that. And in this court case, we've seen from another detainee that one of these detainees was given a document to sign and told that he would, quote, be a free man in Libya after signing. Obviously unclear how one can be a free man when one is just dumped into a country where one doesn't speak the language, has no contact, and there is a war.
- [204:11]
Listener 7
Doesn't make sense in any way.
- [204:13]
Listener 2
This man is not from Libya.
- [204:15]
Listener 4
That is correct. None of these people are Libyan.
- [204:17]
Advertiser
And again, whenever someone says the word Libya, you have to figure out which Libyan government you are talking about because there are multiple of them because there is a fucking civil war going on there right now. So, yeah.
- [204:29]
Listener 4
And whenever someone talks about people being free in Libya, we should bear in mind that migrants are literally sold into slavery in Libya by both governments. Yes. NM's English is limited. His main language is Karen, which of course is a language that people speak in Kartule, the Karen homeland, which is part of Myanmar, on the 19th of this month. So that's two days ago. I sent a notification to his lawyer saying that they'd read him a notice of removal in English, that they were removing him to South Africa. Ten minutes later, they attempted to recall this message. And then later that same day, they notified his lawyer that they'd once again read an notice of removal to him in English, that he was being removed to South Sudan. South Sudan, the world's youngest country, if we're not familiar, a country that is in which conflict is escalating as we speak. The government's carrying out a barrel bombing campaign this very week. His council set up a video meeting at 9am on the 20th. But just before that meeting, his council found out that he had already been removed. Mr. M had refused to sign the order of removal to South Sudan. And we are seeing right now in a court case, it's. It's a class action. Mr. NM is one of the Members of the class. Right. That there was a preliminary injunction against these people being removed because they are the same people who the Trump administration previously tried to remove to Libya, and at this point, they tried to remove them to South Sudan. Before they are sent to these places, they're supposed to have a reasonable fiascreen, meaning. Right. That is where someone can articulate if they have a reasonable fear of being removed to that country. Right. Like if they will be persecuted there, they're likely to face torture or violence or be picked on because of who they are. Right. Then they're supposed to have a 15 day opportunity to submit a motion to reopen if the Department of Homeland Security finds that they don't have reasonable fear. Right. So there's supposed to be this process where they can say, I have a reasonable fear of going there. If I go there, I'll be persecuted. And if DHS says, no, we don't believe you, then they have 15 days to submit.
- [206:31]
Listener 2
Okay.
- [206:31]
Listener 4
More evidence. Right.
- [206:33]
Listener 7
Are they being allowed to do that or no?
- [206:35]
Listener 4
No.
- [206:35]
Listener 2
Got it.
- [206:36]
Listener 4
That is what this case hinges on. Right. So they were informed possibly hours before they were moved to South Sudan that they were being moved to South Sudan. Then they were taken to a secure facility where they couldn't contact their lawyers. And. And in at least the case of Mr. NM, he had scheduled an appointment with his lawyer and was deported before he could do so. Right.
- [206:56]
Listener 2
And this has happened a few times before as well.
- [206:59]
Listener 4
Yeah, that's correct.
- [207:01]
Listener 2
In the past, like, few months.
- [207:02]
Listener 4
That's right, yeah. And specifically, there was a preliminary injunction against this. Right. So quoting from Judge Murphy, who is the judge in the Massachusetts District court where this is being held, the government's actions are unquestionably violative of this court's order. Order. The government said they have complied with my order because they didn't hear anyone yelling at their jailers that they are afraid to go to South Sudan.
- [207:24]
Listener 2
Jesus.
- [207:25]
Listener 4
This is clearly insufficient. Yeah. So what he's articulating here is like this chance to articulate reasonable fear. Right. I do want to point out that in Biden's asylum ban that he passed in 2024, they move from a question of are you afraid to go back to your home country? To what's called a shout test, where the migrant has to articulate that reasonable fear, unprompted right to have a chance at asylum in the United States. So this, again, like all these immigration things, I'm not saying things were the same under Biden, but I am saying that there is a pathway to how we got here and it goes through Biden's executive order.
- [208:01]
Listener 2
And like, Miller is very willing to use anything in his toolbox.
- [208:04]
Listener 4
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Anything that. Look, for decades, carceral liberalism has built a series of tools which now lie in the hands of a very, very illiberal government. Right. And they're being used against people for whom those who supported carceral liberalism may have some sympathy. That is how we got here.
- [208:25]
Listener 2
That's a good way of putting it.
- [208:27]
Listener 4
So the situation we are in at right now is that these people were flown seemingly in a Gulfstream jet. Gillian Brockell, who's a former Washington Post reporter who we're going to have on the show next week, was able to identify this jet based on where it took off and its call sign. It stopped in Shannon in Ireland. Notably, Shannon is an Irish civilian airport. Right. It's not a US Air Force base. And this does raise some questions within Ireland, within Irish politics, about Irish neutrality here. Right. The jet then flew on to Djibouti, which it is believed is where the migrants are right now in court. The discussion probably half an hour before we recorded this. DHS is claiming that they can do their credible fear interviews there on the tarmac in this plane, which people are saying is in Djibouti. Right. There's some suspicion that's in Djibouti. DHS is claiming that the location of the plane is classified. But there's widespread belief that this plane is currently in Djibouti, including, as I say, Gillian was first NYT published something that didn't credit her, should have credited her. So to do the credible theory, they have to have a chance to research what will happen to them in South Sudan.
- [209:38]
Listener 1
Done.
- [209:39]
Listener 4
They have to have access to a lawyer. Most of these people like Mr. NM will also have to have a translator. Right. Then they will also have to have privacy. Right. Their credible fear may be something they don't want to share with everyone else on that plane.
- [209:51]
Listener 2
Because that could also put them in danger.
- [209:53]
Listener 4
Yes.
- [209:53]
Listener 7
Also just like that's a baffling place to suggest somebody have that intimate or private of a conversation. It's just such a violation of their human rights rights.
- [210:06]
Listener 4
Yeah. Many human rights being violated here. So.
- [210:09]
Listener 7
Yeah, yeah.
- [210:10]
Listener 4
I mean, the US has a big base in Djibouti. Right. So I imagine that's why they're there. Remember that they have that 15 day period. So if DHS finds that they don't have credible fear, then they will have 15 days. Right. To bring another to reopen that. Where will they be housed somewhere in Djibouti, presumably, if that's where they are. Right. There are many, many unanswered questions at this point. Now, last night we learned that one of the Burmese people. It appears that there are two Burmese people. We know this because the Department of Homeland Security today started tweeting mugshots of these people.
- [210:47]
Listener 2
Jesus.
- [210:48]
Listener 4
Yeah. And.
- [210:50]
Advertiser
Wow.
- [210:51]
Listener 4
Yeah. Claiming that they were convicted of various crimes. Among them were two Burmese men. And M appears to be Naomi and. And the other appears to be Kyomiya. Both of these men have been accused of. Various have been convicted, I believe, of sex crimes. That's where they got their removal orders. Other people among the dozen or so people on the plane have been convicted of some of them. Like, one of them is South Sudanese, and he was convicted of removing the serial number from a firearm and of armed robbery. Others murder and various other fairly serious crimes. None of that means that you should just get dumped in South Sudan. That is not a punishment in US law. It is not. Not a morally or legally acceptable thing to do.
- [211:33]
Listener 7
It's just truly baffling, honestly. Like, that's. That's what they're doing. That's the move.
- [211:39]
Listener 4
Yeah. The move is to send them to South Sudan, where it's worth noting that South Sudan's government have said it will probably send these people back to their home countries. Evidently, the reason they are not being sent there is because they have articulated a fear of going there or they have protection. It's called withholding of removal. Right. So they can't be removed to that country. 3. And basically, that is where at evidence, they managed to remove apparently somebody to Burma today or late last night. I'm still waiting on my sources in Myanmar to confirm that they. The Burmese hunter is as leaky as a civ. Right. If those people land there, we will know about it pretty soon. We have pretty good sources in Burma, so if that happens, we will know. They also discuss another party, someone who goes by ocg, a gay Guatemalan man who asserted credible fear of being returned while in immigration court. He was deported to Mexico, where he also asserted credible fear. Mexico gave him the choice of remaining in Mexico, going to Guatemala. He went to Guatemala, where he is now in hiding. The DHS claimed he said he didn't have credible fear and then later reversed that and said they didn't ask. So the judge is now asking how on earth they got this conclusion that he didn't have credible fear and deported him. He's saying he might potentially put DHS officers on the stand to explain how they this happened. In other immigration news ICE just today, this is Wednesday, has apparently been dismissing court cases against people who turn up for a hearing in immigration court and then immediately arresting them. What the f. Like right there in.
- [213:15]
Listener 7
Jesus Christ.
- [213:17]
Listener 4
Yeah, like it's a little unclear what the move is here, but clearly they're trying to remove them in a more expeditious way. Right. They have a court case trying to remove this person.
- [213:26]
Listener 2
They're saying, saying because the court case has like, you know, a certain amount of time needs to process. If they dismiss the court case then.
- [213:31]
Listener 4
They have a right to appeal and.
- [213:33]
Listener 2
Yeah, but if it's dismissed then they can expedite other like non judicial removal.
- [213:38]
Listener 4
Yeah, well they can do what they're doing here. Yeah, they can try and run people out before they have a chance to get to their lawyer. Right. Like, and that seems to be the underlying theme of all of these things, which is that your due process and your rights under law are two crime consumers. So we're going to try and make an end run around your rights by sending you to somewhere fucking horrific. That is the underlying theme here. Unfortunately, this removal will likely now affect a lot more people because the Trump administration has removed the 2023 Temporary Protected Status for Venezuelan people. We talked about TPSs in my Darien series. The TPS provides protection from deportation to people who are already present in the USA or when it passes. Generally it's if a country has experienced war or other like instability that makes it dangerous. You have to apply for the tps. They don't provide a pathway to permanence or citizenship, but they do give people work authorization and they often have to be frequently renewed by the executive branch. You have to be in the US the day it's issued, so you can't enter after. Despite what you might have seen on Twitter or whatever. That is not the case. Right. It also doesn't count as a legal entry. So you can't. You see the bridge to a green card trump stripped this protection from about 350,000 Venezuelans under the 2023 TPS. This does not impact. There are two different TPSs for Venezuelan people. They're in a bit of a unique situation. The quarter of a million people covered by the 2021 TPS are still, for now, covered by that. But it doesn't exactly bode well for them. Right. This appears to be the largest blanket removal of legal status from a group of people in United States history. And it's a little unclear what this means for the 350,000 Venezuelan people currently residing in the US under TPS. Right. But it's another case of, like, by their compliance, Iceland probably knows where they live. So these people. It's possible that we will see deportations of these people back to Venezuela. Again, the situation in Venezuela is dire.
- [215:42]
Listener 7
It's a place there's just so many people to, too.
- [215:45]
Listener 4
Yeah. And like, again, if people haven't listened to my Darien series, I would like that because a lot of myself into it, but I have a great affection for Venezuelan migrants. I've spent a lot of time in Caracas when I was younger, and I've spent a lot of time with them in the Darien Gap and when they arrive in the United States. And yeah, it's really fucking heartbreaking to hear, like, when you think of 350,000 people, understand that a good number of those people will be little children.
- [216:11]
Advertiser
Children, yeah.
- [216:12]
Listener 4
Right. People who never had any agency. People whose parents risked their lives to give their kids a chance at a better future, and that's been ripped away from them right now with the consent.
- [216:23]
Advertiser
Of the Supreme Court, like, if you're removing 300, like, 300,000 people from our country, that's just straight up an ethnic cleansing. Like, that's what that is.
- [216:32]
Listener 4
It's about a third of the Venezuelans living in the United States right now. Right. Like, it's. It's way more than decimate, waiting. And yeah, obviously we will see what legal recourse these people have. We'll see how this goes down. But obviously very concerning for these people whose country is falling apart and being returned there will be terrible for them. Right. Like, not only will they likely have none of their savings, all of the resources they poured into getting here, but they're also likely to face political persecution. So, yeah, that's. That's all the exciting and uplifting news I have from the immigration side of things. Hey, everyone, it's James with a pickup. Today, Myanmar now is reporting that the United states has deported 20 people since April to Myanmar. Most of those people, seven of them, have been released. The remainder of those people are being held by Burmese military intelligence in a prison that is notorious for torture, sexual violence, and the general inhumane treatment of incarcerated people that we've become very familiar with in our writing about Myanmar. We don't know who these people are yet. Obviously, this is a story that I'm looking into and I will continue to get back to you on, but it seems like somehow we have not been aware of this until now, but Dozens of people have been deported there. They're saying that 27 people in total are expected to be deported and 20 already have. So obviously this is very disturbing news and something we'll keep reporting on.
- [218:09]
Listener 2
Well, thanks for keeping us updated on that, James. Yeah, we're going to go on break and return to talk about the FBI Palestine and some exciting new reality TV and tariffs.
- [218:21]
Listener 7
I'm sad.
- [218:35]
Listener 2
Okay, we are back. First, I want to do some quick updates about the FBI. Cash Patel has announced that he's shutting down the FBI's DC headquarters in the J. Edgar Hoover Building. Around 1500 agents will be transferred around the country. And in this same interview, Cash Patel and Dan Bongino know, went on TV to say that Jeffrey Epstein died by suicide. And of course MEGA reacts very normal to this.
- [219:02]
Advertiser
What do they have on this deep seat's gotten to them?
- [219:07]
Listener 2
You said Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide. People don't believe it. Well, I mean, listen, they have a right to their opinion.
- [219:16]
Host
But as someone who has worked as a public defender, as a prosecutor, who's been in that prison system, who's been.
- [219:22]
Listener 2
In the metropolitan Detention center, who's been in segregated housing, you know a suicide when you see one, and that's what that was.
- [219:29]
Host
He killed himself again. You want me to. I've. I've seen the whole file. He killed himself.
- [219:35]
Listener 7
I'm upset because I forgot that Dan Bungie note was a person.
- [219:39]
Listener 4
Yeah, me too.
- [219:40]
Listener 2
Oh, I have not forgotten. This is my beat. I. So yes, of course MEGA is acting very normal about, about the affirmation that Epstein killed himself. Quote. Okay, now I'm losing confidence in them both. This is not good at all.
- [220:01]
Listener 7
Oh, let me read one. Let me read one. Let's do this. This is fun. Sad to see Cash and Bonino have been compromised.
- [220:10]
Advertiser
Mia, you're to trying turn Dan blink twice if they threatened you or your family.
- [220:16]
Listener 4
Now I got to do one, right?
- [220:17]
Listener 2
Yeah, yeah.
- [220:18]
Listener 4
Deep state traitor DEI Higher.
- [220:21]
Listener 7
Oh, classic. A classic.
- [220:23]
Listener 4
There it is.
- [220:24]
Listener 1
There it is.
- [220:25]
Listener 4
I knew it was coming. As much as he likes to wear his KU hunting gear.
- [220:29]
Listener 2
But no, there's. There's thousands, thousands of comments from these like, like MEGA Q. People who feel, feel betrayed that people like Patel and Bongino have spent years doing content creation talking about this grand Epstein conspiracy that now, now they claim isn't real or they are in fact covering up the real conspiracy that, that Donald Trump, Donald Trump friends with Jeffrey Epstein. So yeah, there's also an interview clip where, where Trump was asked if he was going to release the whole file. And at first he said yes, and then he caught himself and was like, well, actually, no, we'll probably be. We'll probably have to be careful about releasing the whole file because it could confirm compromise people. What kind of people you talking about there, Don? Anyway, we have a chance to swing the Epstein demographic.
- [221:18]
Advertiser
Now is our time division to our enemies.
- [221:23]
Listener 7
The next thing of the doc is I found interesting. Garrison.
- [221:26]
Listener 2
Oh, this is just one piece of uplifting news. Yeah, this is. I'm just gonna read the headline from NBC because I simply can't improve on it.
- [221:34]
Advertiser
No.
- [221:35]
Listener 7
Oh, it's perfect.
- [221:37]
Listener 2
Quote, suspected serial killer shouts out Trump in last words before he's put to death. Keep making America great. Glenn Rogers once told police he had killed about 70 people. He was executed by lethal injection Thursday in Florida.
- [221:51]
Listener 7
That's the way that I knew it would be Florida.
- [221:53]
Listener 2
Literally seconds before he got the lethal injection, he said, president Trump, keep making America great. I'm ready to go. Last words. Wow. So that kind of shows you the current, like, wellspring of Trump support right now. That's really hitting his prime demographic of suspected serial killers.
- [222:10]
Listener 7
I just have to say that had big Florida energy for real.
- [222:15]
Listener 2
Mia, I think it's time to hear the lucid lullaby of tariff talk.
- [222:36]
Advertiser
You know? All right. Before everything gets so. So, like, I do the most depressing segment I've maybe ever done on here. Tariffs.
- [222:43]
Listener 2
That can't be true.
- [222:44]
Advertiser
No, not the tariff. The next one I genuinely think is the most depressing segment I've ever done on here. But the tariffs. So our negotiations with China that were supposed to, like, solve all of the tariff problems are already breaking down. Both sides are, like, sniping at each other. This is not going to work. It structurally cannot work. The US's demands on the negotiating table, which is again, the political and economic rationale behind this, that the US should not have a trade deficit with China that can't be solved. And it's already breaking down. The talks are going. Almost certainly going to fail, and we're going to be right back to where we were. It's also worth talking about. A bunch of companies have been doing price raises and I think it's worth going back a little bit to some of the. Some of the economic work we've done on this show with the people at Strange Manors and talking about, in our previous episodes about inflation and about how price works, because this is really, really badly understood by just about everyone, which is that the way that people think about, tend to think about price is as like okay, it's supply and demand. There's two X's that meet on a graph. That's not how price is set. Price is set by like specific people in supply chains, right? Like they're constrained by certain factors. And one of the biggest things, but one of the, and one of the things, the biggest things they're constrained about is that if you raise prices, people get pissed at you. But the way that they actually do pricing strategies is cost plus markup, right? There's a cost of the physical good and then they do a markup and the markup is profit margin. And the thing about tariffs, right, is that the way that tariffs affect supply chains is that each part of the supply chain now that's moving, that's importing stuff, right? Each part of those things now has an additional cost that they have to have to put into their costless money market ratio. Now Trump wants all these companies to just fucking eat shit and eat the, eat the price of the tariffs. He's been tweeting about this or posting about it I think on Truth Social and possibly also on Twitter.
- [224:30]
Listener 2
True thing. Yeah, I mean all, all of his truths have been re reposted on X now.
- [224:35]
Advertiser
Yeah.
- [224:35]
Listener 4
So retruthed.
- [224:37]
Advertiser
But the thing is, right and in theory, right, like Walmart could just like take this, right? In theory, like, like, you know, like the really, some of the really, really big companies could in theory do this. They won't like they a lot of. And the other thing is like these companies have an incentive not to raise prices because it pisses consumers off and also because Trump is just like directly threatening sanctions on, on companies that raise prices. Mattel, who, the people who make Barbie said that they were going to raise prices on toys and Trump is now threatening them with 100% sanctions or 100% tariffs.
- [225:07]
Listener 2
Only three dolls.
- [225:08]
Listener 1
Yeah, so, so that's, you know, the.
- [225:12]
Listener 4
Government allotted limit of dolls completely hinge.
- [225:15]
Advertiser
Situation we've gotten here. We're going to have dull quotas. But you know, again, again it's worth mentioning, right, that like in theory, for a little bit of time, some of these companies can sort of eat this or they can fuck with their supply chains. Companies have been publicly talking about this. The problem is the suppliers because the, the, the, the distributors tend to have pretty high margins, right? Like your Walgreens, like Amazon and some, except like their margins are okay and like Amazon makes most of its money from government computing contracts and it was ways, so it's not as catastrophic but the suppliers operate on very low margins. The shipping Companies, everything else along the supply chain operates on really, really low margins. Right. And those people have to raise their price because otherwise they are just going to die. And when they raise their price. Right. That ink, that's an increase to the next company's cost plus markup, which increases the next company's costless market, which increases the next company's. And we're starting to see this ripple through the supply chain. Things are disappearing from grocery stores. They're going to continue disappearing from grocery stores. And as, as this goes on and as presumably the tariffs from China come back into effect when these negotiations break down and the next round of tariffs goes into effect and the Liberation Day tariffs come off their 90 day pause and go into effect, this is all going to get worse. This has been tariff talk.
- [226:27]
Listener 4
Lovely.
- [226:28]
Advertiser
This unfortunately was the fun part of the episode.
- [226:31]
Listener 7
Yeah, I was going to say it's going to get worse in 3, 2, 1.
- [226:37]
Advertiser
Okay. So when I said this might be the bleakest segment I've ever done on this show, we need to do an update on Palestine because things have gotten. Yeah, like when I was kind of opening this episode, I thought it was going to mostly be about Trump's plan to like deport the entire population, to like deport most of the population of Palestine to Libya. That's not even the immediate crisis. The immediate crisis is that. And that's not even true what I'm saying. The immediate crisis. Last week I thought the crisis was going to be the 11 week blockade of Gaza and the fact that everyone is about to start starve. Yeah. And so the actual specific thing that we're getting to right now is Israel is, is attempting to evacuate. That's their wording. What they're actually doing is ethnically cleansing basically the entire population of Khan Yunis by just forcing everyone out of the city. Right. The United nations has said that nearly 100,000 Palestinians have been displaced in Gaza in the last four days as Israel has been expanding its, its ground invasion to the Gaza Strip. This has been combined with the 11 week long blockade of Gaza. I think by the end of this week it might be week 12. This has set off an enormous risk of famine. I'm just going to read this from Al Jazeera. Quote. Some 70 days after the Israeli military halted the entry of food, water, medicine and all other life saving supplies into Gaza, the report said. This is a report from a un, A UN backed food security group of analysts. The report said goods indispensable for people's survival are either depleted or expected to run out in the coming weeks. The entire population is facing high levels of acute food insecurity, with half a million people, one in five, facing starvation, it said. Approximately 93% of Gaza's population is experiencing acute food shortages, it added. The report also said that, like, one in five people could starve between now and November. People have already started starving to death. Israel has been blocking aid from getting through. They symbolically allowed a small number of trucks in. But aid groups on the ground. And I want to emphasize that this reporting is coming directly from the Times of Israel, if you, if you want to understand how bad the situation is. The Times of Israel is reporting that aid groups on the ground say that none of the aid has gotten through. None of it has been distributed. This is. I don't know how to convey how bad it is. Indescribable numbers of people are on the verge of starving to death, and the Israelis are simply not letting any food arrive. They keep talking about how they're going to let food arrive because this is actually, this is the first thing I've seen them do that's actually seriously gotten. I mean, not even seriously, but it's, like, gotten a lot of their Western allies pissed at them because they're just very obviously trying to exterminate entire population by starving them the day death.
- [229:22]
Listener 4
Yeah.
- [229:22]
Advertiser
And this has caused the uk, Canada and France to issue a joint statement coming out against the Israeli policy and telling them to fucking stop and let food through so these people don't starve. The UK is talking about suspending free trade agreements with Israel. They're talking about, like, sanctions of west bank settlers. The. The whole group has threatened that they're going to take more actions unless the Israelis let food in. Now, the Israelis, because of the Israelis, shot at a bunch of diplomats who were visiting a refugee camp in Gene.
- [229:53]
Listener 2
This was like, a few days ago.
- [229:55]
Advertiser
Yeah, it's like a few days ago. Yeah, yeah. And so that's. That's not been, like, making anyone less angry at them. It's genuinely remarkable that we've reached a place where, like, the uk, Canada and France, who are all major weapon suppliers to Israel, are like, talking about sanctions, like, even targeted sanctions. Like. Yeah, you know, and like, the, like the UN's, like, human rights Commission was like, well, this is. You can't just do targeted sanctions. It's the entire government doing this. But, like, you know, the fact that they're doing something is an indicator of just how apocalyptically bad the situation is right now. Yeah. I want to read this quote from The Guardian from just perennial most fascist guy in, in the Israeli government.
- [230:37]
Listener 4
He's saying something.
- [230:38]
Advertiser
Yeah. Who's their fucking finance minister who said, quote, now we conquer cleanse and stay until Hamas is destroyed. He told a news conference along the way, what remains of the Strip is also being wiped. Wiped out.
- [230:51]
Listener 2
Cleanse, Conquer.
- [230:52]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [230:53]
Listener 4
Very normal things to say.
- [230:55]
Advertiser
The extent to which they are simply doing a genocide here has reached a point where even a bunch of Israel's closest allies are going, what the. I don't know. I really hope that people are able to force their governments to actually fucking do something about this because if they don't, it's going to continue to get really bad. Yeah. And I mean, I guess right now, now that's mostly like if you're, if you're in like the uk, Canada or France and you think you can apply more pressure on your government, like go.
- [231:25]
Listener 2
For it, do, do it, do that.
- [231:27]
Advertiser
Like I don't know, I don't know to what extent pressure can even be mounted on the Trump administration, but it's.
- [231:32]
Listener 2
Yeah, I think that's pretty much a dead end.
- [231:34]
Advertiser
Right.
- [231:34]
Listener 4
Yeah. But like, but seeing these countries align outside of any US Influenced to and potentially recognize the Palestinian state according to Le Monde. Right. Like, like is significant. And yeah. People in those countries should absolutely like stay in the streets.
- [231:51]
Advertiser
Yeah. Because like, it, like, and, and this is, this is the thing here. Right. Like the, these countries, the stuff that they're, even the stuff they're threatening to do is not enough to really make a difference here. But like if they're willing to do this, they can be pushed further.
- [232:01]
Listener 4
Yeah.
- [232:01]
Listener 2
So yeah, you have to get your foot in the door.
- [232:03]
Advertiser
Yeah.
- [232:04]
Listener 2
And Carney has also seemed susceptible to this.
- [232:07]
Listener 4
Yeah.
- [232:08]
Listener 2
As there has been a block on arms deals to Israel for the past few months in Canada.
- [232:13]
Host
Yeah.
- [232:13]
Listener 4
Yeah.
- [232:14]
Listener 2
We're gonna close with a. Another story of like anti humanity, but just a slightly different flavor. And I, I know this, this does. The show does often just end up feeling like a bad news roundup and that is because there's a lot of bad news.
- [232:28]
Listener 4
I have a little good news for the end, actually.
- [232:30]
Listener 2
That's good thing. We'll have some good news.
- [232:32]
Listener 4
Yeah. As a treat.
- [232:33]
Listener 2
And part of the good news here is that this probably will not end up happening, but it's still useful insight into the minds of these ghouls.
- [232:40]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [232:41]
Listener 2
And I, I've long advocated that reality TV is basically inherently satanic. I think it's a spiritual darkness.
- [232:47]
Advertiser
This is offensive to Satanists.
- [232:49]
Listener 2
It is, it is A spiritual darkness that has plagued the United States for far too long. I think it's ushered in a degree of evil that is nearly unfathomable.
- [232:59]
Advertiser
Yeah.
- [233:00]
Listener 2
And the current administration is essentially a reality TV administration on a very clear and obvious level.
- [233:06]
Listener 7
Level, yes. But did I enjoy watching the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives?
- [233:11]
Listener 2
No.
- [233:11]
Listener 7
Yes, I did.
- [233:13]
Listener 2
I think watching it tough is actually a personal moral failure. I think you're channeling darkness into your soul and loving it. Last week, multiple outlets reported that the Department of Homeland Security was considering participating in a reality TV show where immigrants compete against each other to gain US Citizenship.
- [233:31]
Listener 1
Jesus Christ.
- [233:32]
Listener 2
The proposed series would be called called the American. This nightmare has been dreamed up by Duck Dynasty producer Rob Warsoff, and apparently he's been trying to make this since Obama's second term, but only now has made progress on getting the necessary backing from the DHS. After sending Trump's DHS a 35 page pitch, Warsoff wants it to be, quote, unquote, the biggest loser for immigration, which, again, reality TV is inherently evil.
- [234:03]
Listener 7
That's fucking insane.
- [234:05]
Listener 4
Yeah.
- [234:05]
Listener 2
It should not be tolerated on any aspect of human society.
- [234:08]
Advertiser
No.
- [234:09]
Listener 2
The Wall Street Journal header reads, quote, this isn't the Hunger Games for immigrants, says the producer behind the pitch. If you have to say this isn't the Hunger Games for immigrants, that means this is the Hunger Games for immigrants. Getting a lot of questions about my this isn't the Hunger Games for immigrants shirt. Already answered by the shirt. To quote the Wall Street Journal quote, DHS spokeswoman Trisha McLaughlin said that she had spoken to the producer of the proposed television reality show and that consideration of the idea was ongoing. It is, quote, in the very beginning stages of that vetting process, she said, adding that, quote, each proposal undergoes a thorough vetting process prior to denial or approval. Approval, unquote. McLaughlin was also quoted in the Daily Mail as saying she thought the television show was, quote, unquote, a good idea.
- [235:05]
Advertiser
Jesus.
- [235:06]
Listener 4
Jesus.
- [235:07]
Listener 2
The pitch details that the immigrant contestants would board a train called the American and ride across the country to meet, quote, unquote, interesting Americans and learn about the local history and culture while competing in region specific, quote, unquote, heritage challenges to prove they are the most American. Such cultural contests include balancing on logs in Wisconsin, building a rocket at the Florida NASA headquarters, assembling a Model T Ford in Detroit, and collecting gold in a San Francisco mine shaft. Prizes would be iconically American, like 1 million American Airlines points, a $10,000 Starbucks gift card, or a lifetime supply of 76.6gas. Immigrants would be Split into teams that compete head to head across one hour episodes, ending with an elimination challenge followed by a town hall and a final vote to quote the producer, quote. Along the way, we will be reminded what it means to be American through the eyes of people who want it most, unquote.
- [236:11]
Listener 4
I feel like even this will. It will humanize migration to the United States too much for them. And let's, like, if they will be afraid of that, like, of these people articulating their desire to be here and what it means to them and like, I feel like that doesn't end well for the administration, that they.
- [236:29]
Listener 2
This might be too liberal for the Trump administration.
- [236:32]
Listener 4
Yeah, it could be too liberty. I'm not even joking.
- [236:35]
Advertiser
This as a concept just should be the death knell for the idea of America. Like, oh, yeah, if America has an experiment, we tried it. It failed.
- [236:43]
Listener 2
This is the most America thing I've ever heard.
- [236:45]
Advertiser
Like, it's over as an experiment. The American project was a fucking disaster. And we need to. It needs to stop because this is what it's done. No more. No more American Project.
- [236:57]
Listener 2
The Pitch has pre vetted contestants first arriving at Ellis island aboard a boat called the Citizenship. There they are greeted by the show's host, quote, a famous naturalized American who was also born in another country, unquote. The Pitch recommends Sofia Vergara or Ryan Reynolds. Upon arriving, the host would gift each of them a personalized baseball glove.
- [237:23]
Listener 4
America's pastime.
- [237:25]
Listener 7
There's no way Sofia Vergara or Ryan Reynolds would ever fucking do a show like this. That's batshit.
- [237:32]
Advertiser
Yeah, I fucking hope so.
- [237:34]
Listener 2
To quote the producer's pitch, quote, we'll join in the laughter, tears, frustration and joy hearing their backstories as we are reminded how amazing it is to be American through the eyes of 12 wonderful people who want nothing more than to have what we have. Unquote. This is the. This is one of the most evil things I've ever. I've ever heard of.
- [237:57]
Listener 4
Yeah.
- [237:58]
Listener 2
The live finale would have the winner getting sworn in on the steps of the U.S. capitol by a, quote, top American politician or judge with F16s flying overhead. But there won't be a drone.
- [238:14]
Listener 4
Fuck me. Sorry.
- [238:16]
Listener 2
There won't be a dry eye in the house. Unquote.
- [238:19]
Listener 1
Jesus.
- [238:20]
Listener 4
There have actually been like high spectacle, single individual awards of citizenship before. I'm thinking, for example, Herman Bodger was a. He's often known as, like the one man army of Buna. Herman John Boccher. He was, I believe, living as an undocumented person in the United States when he joined the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, volunteered to fight in the Spanish Civil War, where he was an officer. He then joined the United States military and fought again in World War II during the battle of Buna. He personally led a charge against several Japanese pillboxes, which he eliminated with grenades. He then had his eardrum perforated and I believe he was shot in the arm he was awarded. I think he wasn't awarded the Medal of Honor, but he was recognized for his bravery. Congress passed an act to make him a citizen and he declined to attend the ceremony because he wanted to get back to the front lines.
- [239:18]
Listener 2
That rules.
- [239:19]
Listener 4
Yeah. Bit of a legend.
- [239:21]
Advertiser
Yeah.
- [239:21]
Listener 2
A little bit cooler than the live grand finale of the American. The pitch clarified that the losers would not be immediately deported and that the contestants would have a leg up in applying for citizenship the more traditional way based on being pre vetted for this show. So it's good that it's, it's, it's good that he had to clarify that they would not be immediately deported upon getting eliminated. That's. That, that's a good sign.
- [239:50]
Listener 1
Yeah.
- [239:50]
Listener 4
Yeah. Another thing that you should always have to clarify. In a TV pitch.
- [239:53]
Listener 2
At a Tuesday congressional hearing, Kristi Noem denied having knowledge of the reality TV show despite reporting to the contrary, while also defining habeas corpus in this hearing as a, quote, constitutional right that the president has to be able to remove people from this country. Country, unquote. So there you go.
- [240:13]
Listener 4
Yeah, that's not what that means, Christine.
- [240:15]
Listener 7
Ome is a disaster.
- [240:17]
Listener 2
That is kind of the opposite of what habeas corpus is. And there is, there is substantial reporting showing that DHS staff are looking at this pitch. It might not go through now based on all this backlash, but they were looking through the pitch, including possibly Corey Lewandowski. But yeah, that is, that is the reality TV news. News. James, do you have anything, anything to. To end on here, please?
- [240:43]
Listener 7
James, please.
- [240:45]
Listener 4
Yeah, I know something, something a little bit nice. So for those of you who, like me, enjoy a strawberry. ICE agents arrived at the West Coast Berry Farms facility in Oxnard, California earlier this month where they were met by a gatekeeper who demanded a warrant and refused to let them enter the facility without Warrant 1, and eventually managed to turn them away. So this is a rare dub, I guess, clearly right as we enter the time of year when things need to be picked in the fields. This will be a place where ICE sees the opportunity to conduct its enforcement operations. And like, it is genuinely positive to see that this company, I guess, critical support to this company that obviously underpays and takes advantage of migrant labour that they have provided them. According to an Anonymous source in SFGate with know your rights training, and in this case, the gatekeeper was able to not let the ICE agents enter and eventually they left.
- [241:47]
Listener 2
Like, ICE isn't impervious. Like, all week ICE has been releasing statements complaining about being compared to. To the. To the Gestapo once again.
- [241:57]
Listener 4
Right. Like another, another thing that you should, shouldn't have to be releasing statements about.
- [242:01]
Listener 2
My I am not the gestapo shirt has people asking a lot of questions. Yeah. And they're also publishing false stats about ICE officers being assaulted in the line of duty. So, like, obviously they are. They're facing some kind of, like, fear even among their own agents. That's why they're all like, covered up wherever they go. They're trying to prosecute people for posting information on ICE agents in your area.
- [242:21]
Listener 4
Yeah, yeah, like, but like I say, they're not impervious. There is a difference between a judicial warrant and a warrant that ICE has essentially made itself.
- [242:29]
Listener 1
Right.
- [242:29]
Listener 4
The last letter not being signed by a judge. And it appears that the gatekeeper was aware of that. We still have courts. You still in theory have rights and you know.
- [242:39]
Listener 2
Well, it, it depends.
- [242:40]
Listener 4
But yes, yeah, theoretically, that was a pivotal word. But yeah, shout out to the gatekeepers at the Oxnard strawberry plant. Yeah.
- [242:50]
Advertiser
And they, they could, they could be stopped by a doorkeeper. Like, they can be resisted. They can be. Start from doing things.
- [242:57]
Listener 4
Yeah. And like, it is genuinely important that this person understood the difference between a judicial warrant and these documents that I smite produce. And it does illustrate the value of being educated and educating people in your communities about these things if they might be at risk for this.
- [243:12]
Listener 2
All right, we reported the news.
- [243:14]
Listener 7
Boy, howdy did we.
- [243:16]
Listener 2
We reported the.
- [243:24]
Listener 1
Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of the universe.
- [243:29]
Listener 7
It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, Visit our website, coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts you can now find sources for It Could Happen here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.
- [243:53]
Listener 4
Craftsman days are here at lowes with.
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Listener 2
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Listener 4
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Listener 2
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Listener 4
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Listener 2
You to build on.
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Host
Stop by your nearest Lowe's store and.
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Listener 4
Check out the full line of Craftsman.
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Listener 2
Tools today, valid through 618, while supplies last selection varies by location.
- [244:21]
Listener 4
I'm Jake Hanrahan, journalist and documentary filmmaker. Away Days is my new project reporting on countercultures on the fringes of society all across the world. Live from the underground, you'll discover no rules fighting, Japanese street racing, Brazilian favela life, and much more. All real, completely uncensored. Listen to the Away Days podcast Reporting.
- [244:46]
Host
From the underbelly on the iHeartRadio app.
- [244:48]
Listener 4
Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [244:52]
Listener 5
I want you to ask yourself right now, how am I actually doing? Because it's a question that we rarely ask ourselves. All of May is actually Mental Health Awareness Month and on the Psychology of your twenties we are taking a vulnerable look at why mental health is so hard to talk about. Prepare for our conversations to go deep.
- [245:09]
Listener 4
I spent the majority of my teenage.
- [245:11]
Listener 6
Years and my twenties just feeling absolutely terrified.
- [245:15]
Listener 5
So this Mental Health Awareness Month, open the free iHeartRadio app, search the psychology of your 20s and listen now.
- [245:22]
Listener 2
It started with a TikTok.
- [245:24]
Host
I didn't find out about her death.
- [245:26]
Listener 4
Until I saw it on TikTok and.
- [245:28]
Listener 1
At any ended in a murder trial.
- [245:30]
Listener 2
The defendant committed a first degree murder when he murdered Daisy Dilloto.
- [245:38]
Listener 5
I'm Jen Swan.
- [245:39]
Advertiser
I'm the writer and host of My.
- [245:41]
Listener 5
Friend Daisy Binge the series in its.
- [245:43]
Listener 2
Entirety on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts.
- [245:47]
Advertiser
Or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [245:51]
Host
You're listening to an iHeart podcast.