Simone Boyce (2:12)

That's comedian Phoebe Robinson. And yeah, those are the kinds of gems you'll only hear on my podcast, the Bright side. I'm your host, Simone Boyce. I'm talking to the brightest minds in entertainment, health, wellness and pop culture. And every week we're going places in our communities, our careers and our so join me every Monday and let's find the bright side together. Listen to the bright side on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Raven (2:41)

Cool Zone Media.

Robert Evans (2:43)

Hey everybody. Robert Evans here and I wanted to let you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode of the week that just happened is here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package and you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, there's gonna be nothing new here for you. But you can make your own decisions.

Garrison Davis (3:09)

Garrison takes a puff of their clove cigarette as slow jazz plays in the background. These sites ain't what they used to be. I've been digging into liberal conspiracy theories. That is they're all the rage where the sky is blue and the book is face. These lebs think old Donny J's close call in Pennsylvania was a false flag, that the South African musk stole the election and that the Park Service has gone rogue. Waging an insurgent information warfare against this corrupt administration. Sending out coded messages on social media. It's called Blue and on doll. And it's been making me blue. This is it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. I'm joined by Mia Wong for our Blue on Anon episode. Finally.

Mia Wong (4:07)

I never thought. I never thought I would be nostalgic for the days where I was arguing with ISIS on Twitter. But increasingly, increasingly I am looking back at that as the golden age of the Internet. We were merely dealing.

Garrison Davis (4:21)

No, it's. It's only got more stupid with right wing terrorist organization. It's.

Raven (4:25)

It's.

Garrison Davis (4:25)

And it's, it's only going to get more stupid from here.

Mia Wong (4:27)

Oh yeah, no, this is, this is the least stupid it's going to be for at least 50 years.

Garrison Davis (4:32)

This is the thing that I realized while doing my research for this Blue on episode is that usually conspiracy research is kind of fun. I have a good time looking into conspiracy theories. I like going to conspiracy conventions. I. I get joy out of this. Almost no joy looking into liberal conspiracy theories. Really boring and kind of sad. So that's the intro for this episode.

Mia Wong (4:57)

Garrison, can I interest you in some of the bespoke shit? None of, none of the. None of this 2024 election stolen. Can I, can I interest you in some 2004 Iowa vote total?

Garrison Davis (5:13)

Oh yeah, absolutely. We'll get to that.

Mia Wong (5:17)

So much better.

Garrison Davis (5:17)

We'll get to that in our last section because yeah, there has been liberal action done out in the past. Not at the same I think scale, it exists at now, but yes, it certainly has existed before. And you know, for a while conspiracy theories were like a bipartisan or at least like a bi directional political pastime. Like old conspiracy magazines were not as partisan as conspiracy theories seem today. Think of like, you know, jfk. Everyone gets to have fun with JFK except for me.

Mia Wong (5:45)

I don't have any fun with that.

Garrison Davis (5:47)

And conspiracy culture used to like cross over between hippie environmentalism, anti Semitism, anti corporatism, anti authoritarianism. All these things exist both on the far right and the far left. There was a lot of meshing between different, different polarities of conspiracy theory. And I think politics on the fringe are slightly more susceptible to conspiratorial thinking. And if you, if you spend any amount of time in like, you know, the communist left, you'll see that they, they have their fair share of conspiracy theories or even just a conspiratorial way of understanding the world.

Mia Wong (6:22)

They all think that we work for the CIA.

Garrison Davis (6:24)

Yeah, stuff about the CIA and NATO, all kinds of stuff. And though like anti vaccine and 911 truther ISM were initially more liberal aligned conspiracy theories in the Obama years, conspiracy culture coalesced around the growing far right. Look at people like Glenn Beck and the slide of Alex Jones into the fascist right. Case in point, Obama birtherism. And all this stuff leads to Donald Trump and QAnon. As of late, liberals have had a conception that as the more rational of the two political alignments, they were almost naturally immune to conspiratorial thinking. Meanwhile, attacks on consensus reality, fractured information streams, and any larger collective sense of what's real and what isn't started to slip away from everyone.

Mia Wong (7:16)

Kirsten? Yeah? Your camera is flashing.

Garrison Davis (7:18)

They're trying to silence me. They're trying to silence. I'm getting too close to the truth.

Mia Wong (7:25)

Definitely look like a, like you're being taken off the air in a cyberpunk thing. Like your pirate radio is being taken now.

Garrison Davis (7:32)

My cat started to unplug my camera.

Mia Wong (7:36)

Really funny.

Garrison Davis (7:37)

Although my cat is named Theodore Katzinski and Kaczynski was a CIA operative who got MK Ultra. Oh God, you never know. Oh, the right wings trailblazing of political unreality allowed space for liberals to dip their toes into the conspiratorial mindset again. But maybe without even realizing that's what they were doing. Exaggerations of Russiagate was one of the first Trump era liberal experiments with conspiracy theories. The idea that Russia not only engaged in hacking on a social media disinformation campaign to influence the 2016 election, but that Donald Trump himself colluded with Russia to get himself elected and might even be a Russian asset. And even though those allegations were investigated and not concretely proven, the conspiratorial churn continued, emboldened by the meaty environment that the right has created. As QAnon accelerated during the second half of Trump's first term, so did the decline of American consensus reality, culminating in the Stop the steal movement in January 6, which were explosive manifestations of Internet conspiracism and which erupted in the physical world, a severe fracturing of reality took place. Any conception of a shared political reality seemed so far gone, and the effects of this loss aren't just contained to Republicans, but this also enables liberals and people in the left by opening up space for small reality tunnels to form regardless of political ideology, the siloing of information channels makes it almost impossible to actually form a consensus reality as the United States has embraced its political kayfabe. As everything gets more absurd, what loses is political mundanity. Liberals and the left were almost destined to become more conspiratorial in this current moment. And you can even look at how Newsom is like copying Trump's posting strategies and even how people like me meme ify and replicate Trump phrases many such cases. We were all going to be pulled into this at a certain point because it's just more interesting. I'm going to quote from one of Mia's favorite books, the CCRU quote.

Mia Wong (9:59)

Oh God no.

Garrison Davis (10:03)

Conspiracy fictions are spun out of an all encompassing narrative that can't possibly be falsified because they want you to believe in their non existence. To attempt to refute such narratives is to be drawn into a tedious double game. One either has to embrace an arbitrary and outrageous cosmic plot in which everything is being run by Jews, Masons, the Illuminati, the CIA, Microsoft or Satan. Or alternatively advocate submission to the most mundane construction of quotidian reality, dismissing the hyperstitional chaos that operates behind the screens. This is why atheism is usually so boring. Both conspiracy and common sense, the normal reality script depend on the dialectical side of the double game on reflective twins, belief and unbelief. But disbelief is merely the negative complement of belief. Unquote. Belief is so much stronger because disbelief is so much more boring. It only exists in comparison to belief in something. And I think this is why everyone has this urge to get more conspiratorial. And like Americans specifically are whole country is based on conspiracy theory. Like the Masons are such a core part of, of our national identity.

Mia Wong (11:27)

I went down that tunnel. I went down the like. If you, if you, if you ask me to start talking about politics in late 1970s, early 1980s Italy, I could start talking about how Italy was run by a rogue Masonic lodge. So that actually is true. If you Google propaganda due you will, you will find out this was, this was actually, this was on the front page of the New York Times. It was to, to, to be fair to the bases, this was a rogue Masonic lodge. They had been expelled from the Masons for being assholes. But this is true. All conspiracies are true. But only about 1970s Italy. But it's more interesting, right? Like it's so much more interesting.

Garrison Davis (12:02)

Yeah, it is more interesting and it makes it really hard to disprove conspiracy theories when the act of disproving it makes it feel like you're submitting to some. All controlling authority. And people, people feel like they're losing like in that idea of submission is why people get so pulled into conspiracy theories because they think that believing in conspiracy theories is itself almost a form of resistance against, you know, quote, unquote, them.

Mia Wong (12:29)

Yeah, which is, which, which is very funny because the actual operation of conspiracy is precisely the other way around. Like, conspiracies have been encouraged by the government, by governments forever. Like the protocols of the Elders of Zion were like an op by the fucking czars. Like, like this is like this, this, this is, this was, this was literally a Russian police operation. Right. But all of these people now believe that they're like, oh, I'm like the anti systemic person because I fell for this like anti Semitic police operation. But it's a, yeah, it's a really powerful force.

Garrison Davis (12:58)

The US government has intentionally stoked like UFO conspiracy theories for 80 years.

Mia Wong (13:04)

Yeah, because it covers up the thing, you know, if you, if you want to go conspiratorial about it is because it covers up the thing they're actually doing, which is like mundane but horrifying. Weapons testing shit.

Garrison Davis (13:14)

Like now the CCRU proposes that quote, unquote unbelief might be the way out of this cycle by building a plane of potentiality where the annihilation of judgment converges with real cosmic indeterminacy. I myself try to embrace an unbelief viewpoint for a lot of things, but I think that only gets you so far and might also encourage some of these same problems in a larger scale. Because America has now gotten to the point of unbelief, especially in regards to QAnon. We've outgrown the need for QAnon because everything is QAnon now. Politics are about determining who is and isn't a pedophile. Immigrants are trafficking children. Donald Trump is on the Epstein list, which both doesn't exist and was invented by Democrats. Historical events are staged. Every election was now stolen by the side who won. DHS is posting coded messages on the Internet, the FBI and police are faking crime statistics. Everything Trump does is a distraction from whatever the previous thing Trump did, which itself was a distraction from whatever the previous thing Trump did. So on and so forth. This is just what American politics are now. Yeah, and while Trump's numerous connections to Epstein are long documented and he appears in Epstein FBI investigation files, discussions around it can feel very the storm is coming. The pedo elite are always just about to be arrested and removed from office. I'd like to see old Donny Jay wiggle his way out of this jam. The logic of QAnon has perforated almost every aspect of American politics. On Blue sky there is this conspiratorial mantra gaining traction among liberals. He wasn't shot. He didn't win. He's on the list.

Mia Wong (15:06)

Oh, don't like that.

Garrison Davis (15:08)

Oh no, that's what they believe. Do you know what isn't a conspiracy theory, Mia?

Mia Wong (15:14)

That advertisement is designed to drive consumer demand to replenish capitalism by replacing your desire.

Garrison Davis (15:20)

It's not a conspiracy theory. That's just the good old truth. Listen to these ads.

Mia Wong (15:31)

Foreign.

Garrison Davis (15:36)

We'Re back as QAnon itself became a uber conspiracy theory over time, linking together a large collection of historical and contemporary conspiracy theories into one overarching story. Blue Anon does not just refer to a single conspiracy theory, but rather is a label that can be applied to a general assortment of theories or conspiratorial thinking held by contemporary liberals and Democratic voters. I myself used a version of this term all the way back in January of 2021 for a since removed YouTube video due to threats of violence in which I used the word blue QAnon to describe Portland liberals who believed that Russia was staging antifa protests to make liberals look bad after Biden's election victory. And some of the banners used in this video apparently had threats to the President of the United States. So YouTube took down the video. Unfortunately, even though the video was just outlining liberal conspiracy theories about this protest, thinking that, you know, Russia probably made.

Mia Wong (16:38)

This banner, the censorship regime continues apace.

Garrison Davis (16:46)

Around this time, 2021, the term blue and on was mostly used to refer to Trump Russia conspiracy theories. But there were a whole bunch of other liberal conspiracy theories in this era, like how pallets of bricks were being mysteriously dropped off at protests. And though I will say this conspiracy theory was used by both people on the right as well as some centrist liberals.

Mia Wong (17:09)

Yeah. And I. And I think this is actually, you know, you were talking about how there is this like QAnon, like this sort of moment of break with consensus reality. And I think the 2020 uprising was one of the most. The single most important events in this entire process.

Garrison Davis (17:22)

Massively so.

Mia Wong (17:23)

Yeah. Because the 2020 uprising was a systemic challenge to both the liberal and the Republican estab. Right. Because if its central premise is true that the United States is a structurally racist state. Right. That is based on the oppression of black people, then you can't continue to maintain the state. And also simultaneously, the thing that was incredibly threatening was that people were actually willing to go out and fight the police over this. And on the right, this obviously causes massive reality fraction because they have to grapple with the fact that like most of the country was fine with burning a police. Police station down.

Garrison Davis (18:02)

Or were they?

Mia Wong (18:03)

Right? Yeah, this is like. Oh no, there was. This was. This was act. This whole thing was actually like a plan by like antifa Democrats and like Pritzker's billionaire, like the Jewish billionaire Soros Jewish billionaires.

Garrison Davis (18:14)

It was actually the Boogaloo Boys who planned the whole thing and burned down the third Precinct.

Mia Wong (18:19)

Yeah. And this is. This is a very, very comp. This became the liberal main line on the birding of the third precinct was that it was a false flag by like the Boogaloo Boy. People don't remember the Boogaloo Boys, far right.

Garrison Davis (18:30)

Boogaloo Boys.

Mia Wong (18:31)

Yeah. It was like they were like this very, very weird race war fascist trying.

Garrison Davis (18:35)

To encourage a new Civil war.

Mia Wong (18:37)

Yeah, Civil war weird fascist group. But like, that became the liberal main line because they had to find a way to explain the fact that the people who were, you know, like a lot of people who are normally supposed to be their base decided instead of doing their sort of just like vote for the president and like vote for the Democratic president and like non violently and passively do nothing, people went and fought the police for most of a year. And this caused this massive fracturing where people had to believe that instead of there just being construction sites and people taking bricks from construction sites, as people have been doing for literally since the first brick was made, people have been taking them and throwing them at enemy authorities. Right.

Garrison Davis (19:19)

Like stonewall was a false flag.

Mia Wong (19:22)

Yeah, right, because the actual power of that uprising was so dangerous to the fundamental liberal conceptions of reality and the world. And that like the marginalized and oppressed people who they, who they sort of claim to represent would take it into their own hands. The idea that, yeah, the state is structurally racist and so it has to be resisted, that caused people to just have to create these like, just pure reality tunnels of like, oh no, actually any attempt to fight the police is a false flag that the police want to do. Or the burning of the third Precinct was actually like the fascists attempting to provoke people and that the state actually wants you to fight it because if you fight the state, then the state wins. And like, this is one of the reality tunnels that creates this sort of conspiratorial mindset where like the Boogaloo Boys did the third Precinct. That's not just a thing from like, you know, online posters that became the main line of the Democratic Party because they also had to contain the uprising. And from there, and once, once that's the accepted narrative of like the Democrats, then this pure reality tunnel conspiracy shit is now just baked in to the very core of liberalism as it attempts to recuperate and defeat the energies that were unleashed by 2020. And that's how we're here. That's a large part of it.

Garrison Davis (20:36)

Flash forwarding a few years during the first half of 2024, especially in and around Biden's disastrous debate performance, the blue and on term begun being used to refer to a collection of theories that a secret cabal of deep state elites, the news media, high ranking Democrats and Republicans were targeting Biden to sabotage his presidency to make him lose the election.

Mia Wong (21:02)

There's, there's no such thing as getting old. There is simply being sabotaged by cue cards and camera lighting positions.

Garrison Davis (21:12)

Now the blue non term here is sort of a misnomer because like at this point, like Russiagate and QAnon had very little in common. Like one viewed Trump as the Messiah, the other viewed him as basically, you know, an antichrist slash Russian asset. In the wake of Trump assassination, Philip Bump pinned a Washington Post article declaring, quote, QAnon and BlueAnon rhyme. The similarities end there. And I have sympathies for this viewpoint, especially in the wake of like January 6th. Right. Blunon doesn't have satanic wayfarer child trafficking. Yeah, but maybe it doesn't need to.

Mia Wong (21:52)

No.

Garrison Davis (21:52)

In conspiracy theories, it's not just about the substance of the beliefs held, but the function and methodology of the beliefs. And in the past year, Blue Anon's function and methodology have started to parallel qanons more and more, which leads us to the event that really opened up operating space for the mainstreaming of liberal conspiracy theories, the attempted assassination of one Donald Trump. Americans are particularly susceptible to assassination conspiracy theories. It has kind of been woven into our national identity. Now, of course, Republicans, including elected representatives, develop their own fair share of theories about the attempted assassination of Donald Trump. But that's another episode. Here's a viral Facebook video. Remember Facebook?

Mia Wong (22:45)

Oh, no, it's not that bad. Take a look. What happened?

Jack (Alt Watcher) (22:52)

Fake ass, man.

Garrison Davis (22:55)

Stage fake ass, bro. Ain't no bullets flying or nothing, you.

Mia Wong (23:00)

Know what I'm saying?

Garrison Davis (23:00)

If you know anything about a shootout scene to shoot out, you will see.

Mia Wong (23:04)

Bullets, clown stuff getting puked off, man. Ain't nothing going on, nothing getting hit.

Garrison Davis (23:09)

Nothing getting puked off.

Mia Wong (23:10)

He definitely didn't get hit.

Garrison Davis (23:11)

He faked it all the time.

Mia Wong (23:13)

The whole thing is fake, staged and grid, bro.

Garrison Davis (23:16)

This how they play, y'.

Raven (23:17)

All.

Garrison Davis (23:18)

They gonna make y' all vote for them.

Mia Wong (23:19)

Now off the dump, you feel me?

Garrison Davis (23:21)

Oh, y'.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (23:22)

All.

Garrison Davis (23:22)

Oh, he. Oh, he been shot at. Y' all all gonna want to vote for him. Y' all some fucking clowns, bro. The word staged spiked in use by almost 4,000% on Twitter, according to the misinformation tracker News Guard, appearing 300,000 times the day of and after the shooting. The term inside job also rose on social media, up by over 3000% with bots and inauthentic accounts adding to this chaos. And Israeli disinfo tech firm Cyber found that 45% of accounts using hashtags like fake assassination and staged shooting were inauthentic. Within a day, a post on X questioning the authenticity of the event gained over 50,000 likes. Quote, Great camera angle, great quality, no Secret Service agent in front of his head covering the wound, conveniently placed US flag, unquote. Another got nearly 50,000 likes asking users to, quote, raise your hand and repost if you think this was staged. There was a flood of posts earning thousands of likes and millions of alleged views which questioned why Trump was able to or allowed to stand above the crowd after being shot, yelling, fight, fight, fight. Risking getting shot again. And while it, you know, could have been possible that there was a second shooter, Trump was only able to stand back up after it was confirmed that Crooks was killed. You can hear it in the video. Shoot her down. Shoot her down. Secret Service was already aware of Crooks position prior to the shooting and had not Located any other possible shooters. But reality does not matter here.

Mia Wong (25:08)

Yep.

Garrison Davis (25:08)

I'm going to play a short clip from a YouTube video which was uploaded just a month ago with over 85,000 views, explaining why someone feels it really easy to believe in this conspiracy. Now, ladies and gentlemen, I normally don't go down conspiracy holes. I don't. But we know MAGA does. MAGA has gone down so many conspiracy holes and brought it to science that.

Mia Wong (25:37)

We'Ve got people not giving their kids vaccine.

Garrison Davis (25:39)

We've seen measles rising in Texas.

Mia Wong (25:42)

We had people not wanting to get to Covid.

Garrison Davis (25:44)

We had quarterbacks telling people to take Ivermectin. We had people saying, take fucking horse tranquilizers to get rid of COVID And so now I think I've earned the opportunity to go down a rabbit hole. This video was someone who was right.

Mia Wong (25:59)

There at the Trump rally, and they're contending that this whole thing is made.

Garrison Davis (26:03)

Up, which a lot of us felt like it was anyway, because we do that Trump, he's not afraid to fool around in, shall we say, reality or entertainment tv. We know he's not afraid to do that, and I'll show you an example of that in a minute. What example do you think he's gonna show?

Mia Wong (26:25)

The WWE thing.

Garrison Davis (26:27)

It is the WWE thing.

Mia Wong (26:29)

I remember there was so much WWE like, tie in with this.

Garrison Davis (26:34)

We'll. We'll get to that in a sec. But I find this explanation of why this person feels allowed to believe a conspiracy theory is now super interesting. It is specifically because the right has been so willing to embrace conspiracism that now it feels like it's fair game for liberals to do it as well. And this guy is just almost. Almost acknowledging this fact. He's kind of like working his way to my entire thesis here with maybe without realizing it.

Mia Wong (27:01)

Also, this guy's sponsored by an AI company just. Just to make this absolutely perfect. Great stuff. Great stuff happening in the sphere of our political discourse. We love to see it.

Garrison Davis (27:11)

But yes, based on the blood smeared across Trump's face after he went on the ground, people postulated that Trump was hiding a razor blade in his sleeve, WWE style, to purposefully cut his face to make it look like he was shot.

Mia Wong (27:27)

Yeah, Donald Trump bladed himself. What are we doing here? So should we believe that faking getting.

Garrison Davis (27:35)

Shot is beyond them? Why would we believe that when this is still Trump that once was trained by the wwe? Wasn't those some convincing ass right hands he just gave Vince McMahon?

Mia Wong (27:57)

No, those are the least convincing right hands I've ever seen. And I have watched Hulk Hogan throw.

Garrison Davis (28:02)

A punch good enough for me. You know what? Think we've solved this whole assassination thing right here. So I'm like, this stuff doesn't even warrant debunking. Debunking is useless, right?

Mia Wong (28:14)

Yeah.

Garrison Davis (28:14)

All of these conspiracy theories rest on the fact that rally attendees were hospitalized with gunshot wounds and two people died as a sacrifice to sell this event. And that the Biden era Secret Service helped facilitate this whole operation. I watched YouTube videos explaining that even if bullets were fired and people at the rally were hit and killed, though just not Trump, the actual footage of the shooting is actually AI because the number of targets hit don't match the number of shots heard in the video. And people in the crowd suddenly disappear once shots are fired. As in people get down low on the ground to avoid getting hit. As for the number of shots hit versus shots fired, these videos seem to not realize that bullets travel through objects like, say, Donald Trump's ear.

Mia Wong (29:04)

That being the point of. Of a bunch.

Garrison Davis (29:07)

Also, this was actually Trump loyalist police firing into the crowd as a part of this stage operation, not. Not Thomas Crooks. After the shooting, a political advisor to Democratic donor and LinkedIn founder Reid Hoffman named Dmitri Melhorn sent an email proposing that the shooting may have been, quote, encouraged and maybe even staged so Trump could get the photos and benefit from the backlash, unquote. The next day, Melhorn regretted and apologized for sending the email. And think about it. While one person was lined up perfectly to get the now historic photo, think of how many other professional photographers at the rally weren't so lucky. There's not just one photographer at the event, there's lots. And yeah, one person got a really compelling shot.

Mia Wong (29:53)

It's a campaign event.

Raven (29:54)

There's paid photographers there.

Mia Wong (29:56)

This is. This is what a campaign event is.

Garrison Davis (29:58)

Oh, my God.

Mia Wong (29:58)

There is. There. There is a flag that was staged because it was a campaign event. I'm going insane.

Garrison Davis (30:08)

According to a poll from Morning Consult, roughly one in five voters said that they found it credible that the shooting was staged and not intended to kill Trump, including one third of, at the time, Biden supporters, 33% of Biden supporters, and 12% of those who back Trump, which is really funny to me.

Mia Wong (30:30)

That's actually really funny. It was an inside job. Good job, guys. Good job.

Garrison Davis (30:36)

The mega Trump assassination truthers. The majority of voters, though, 62%, said that the unsubstantiated notion is not credible. A statement I've seen from both the conspiratorial Left and the right is that we know all about, say, Luigi Mangione or this latest school shooter, but still know nothing about the Trump assassination. And this just isn't true. We actually know a lot about Thomas Crooks. Now. Just because you haven't read about it doesn't mean that we don't know. I'll link to a recent New York Times article looking into his online footprint. We know a lot about this guy.

Mia Wong (31:16)

Yep.

Garrison Davis (31:17)

But based on the conception that this failed assassination attempt would, in the end, help Trump get elected, some people chose to just reject the event entirely. And yeah, it was surreal. A warped manifestation of millions of people's dream. And when things happen that challenge expectations or are just plain weird, some people reject that reality and substitute their own alternate realities, which make more sense to them. If a near miss event like this would help Trump, then it must be Trump's doing. Do you know what Trump has no control over?

Mia Wong (31:54)

It's so not true. That he doesn't have control of these products and services we have been reporting on is his.

Garrison Davis (31:59)

Increasingly, the tariffs aren't real. Mia. I won't believe the tariffs until I see them with my own two eyes.

Mia Wong (32:04)

I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I. I'm going to walk you to the port of la. We're gonna go look at the tariffs together. My inside sources here's.

Garrison Davis (32:25)

All right, we're back. You can't talk about liberal conspiracy theories without the most blatant example of some libs taking a page right out of the mega playbook 2024 election denial. Another instance of Trump and QAnon trailblazing something that used to be on the political fringe and normalizing it as acceptable political discourse. Early on, after Trump was declared the projected winner, liberals questioned why There were seemingly 20 million missing Democratic votes from the expected 2024 totals, pointing to the higher numbers in 2020, seemingly forgetting that vote totals were still being counted. And in the end, there were only 3 million fewer votes this election, which is extremely reasonable for an election. According to News Guard, by Wednesday morning after the election Trump cheated was trending on Twitter with nearly a hundred thousand mentions since midnight. I'll read a few of these viral tweets. Quote, I hold a master's degree in political science. Oh no, I don't yet understand these results. And I don't pretend to. I'm not into conspiracy. But I'd like to know, did millions across Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Michigan really split their vote? Did millions of Democratic voters really stay home? And the answer is yes, yes, yes. They did. That is what happened. You figured it out. People did split their vote and yeah, lots of people were not compelled to vote for Harris and stayed home. Congratulations. You, you've, you stumbled, you stumbled across the reality. Another person remarked, quote, I hold a master's again, I love all these people prefacing this by saying that they have degrees.

Mia Wong (34:10)

And I want to say two things about the degree thing. One, 80% of the time when someone starts doing one of these things, you can go back and find different degrees. They pretended have two. I have been around people who get master's degrees in political science. We are not talking about the cream of the intellectual crop here. This is a discipline that is economics for people who. Or even worse at the chain rule than economists, like, what are we doing here?

Garrison Davis (34:39)

Quote, I hold a master's in political science with a minor in statistics and I can't make sense of this. Human nature had to completely upend itself for this to happen. Swing states voting straight blue down the ballot except for the top. Nah, that's not what people do. And yet it is what happened. Average political science analysis.

Mia Wong (35:02)

This is hinged for them.

Garrison Davis (35:05)

So very quickly, liberals demanded recounts and court challenges, begging that Kamala Harris take this to court with misinformation spreading that she was planning said court challenges. Others alleged that Elon Musk hacked voting machines. According to a report from the University of Washington, over a five day period, there were hundreds of thousands of tweets and retweets about how Elon Musk, working with Trump and sometimes with Putin, used Starlink satellites to steal the election, perhaps by intercepting then changing vote totals through the Internet, despite most voting machines not being connected to the Internet.

Mia Wong (35:46)

No. And, and, and, and the actual thing that he did was like going to places and saying, I'll give you a million dollars if you vote for this election, one of you will win. Like, that's like the actual thing that he did, which is so blatantly obvious.

Garrison Davis (36:00)

And like basic, like ground game targeting and swing states. Like, yeah, they mobilized a shit ton of money. Quote, I'm hearing today that Elon's software, Starship, is the software that handled all the swing state ballots. If indeed this is true, this is clearly a conflict of interest and another reason why swing states need investigations. Well, good news, this isn't indeed true. You made this up. This is fake. It's not just Twitter, though. On meta's, Twitter alternative threads, there was a hotbed of election denial with posts like this spreading on the platform and beyond to places like Reddit. Quote, Trump cheats at everything in life. Putin interfered in the past three elections. Musk and Trump talk to Putin a lot. Musk's Starlink uploaded votes in swing states. Swing state voters went Dem down ballot, but Trump at the top unlikely. Starlink satellites exploding, destroying evidence, unquote. This is referencing a conspiracy theory from the time that based on an event on November 10th where a Starlink satellite re entered orbit and blew up, as Elon Musk's technology is known to do, this was itself proof that he was blowing up his satellites on purpose to conceal evidence that Starlink was used to alter election results. SpaceX regularly retires satellites which then slowly fall to earth and blow up. This is ordinary practice. This particular satellite, which exploded on November 10, was decommissioned back in August. This has nothing to do with the election. Yeah, still, there were viral tweets calling for a quote, unquote, forensic investigation. And accounts like your N on news, an account pretending to be affiliated with the hacker group Anonymous, which is a real vector point of left wing conspiratorial thinking.

Mia Wong (37:56)

I'm going to put a note here, but it says that the history and relationship of your Anon news is very complicated. This is not a. This is not our definitive statement on it. Please don't get mad at us. It's a. It's a fucking mess. It's a fucking mess. That's what I'm gonna say about it. That guy sucks shit.

Garrison Davis (38:15)

They've been spreading a lot of election misinformation news, especially in November. Quote, some strange statements from Trump and Elon have fueled doubts about election integrity. You can just change one line of code. Elon stated about the code on electronic voting machines. I don't need more votes. I already have votes. Trump stated repeatedly, so why not take a look? Unquote. This alleged quote from Elon cannot be sourced at all. The full version of it is, quote, if you want to steal an election, all you have to do is change one line of code, unquote. I have tried so hard to find the original source for this quote, I cannot. It is just liberals saying Elon said this. It may have been something he said. I cannot find it. Even if it is something he said, there's not evidence that he stole the election.

Mia Wong (39:07)

No.

Garrison Davis (39:07)

At all.

Mia Wong (39:08)

He does this like there's a whole conspiracy on the left that thinks that Elon Musk was behind the coup in Bolivia, which was like something that was accepted by Evo back when he was in the nas, like in Bolivia, because it was like politically convenient for everyone involved to believe that, like, Elon Musk did this coup in Bolivia over, like, lithium prices, when the actual reality was it was done by a bunch of Bolivian agro barons. But people just believe this. And, and, and Elon will just play into it, even, like, because I, I don't. He probably didn't say that, but, like, even if he did, like, he did say the, that he did the coup in Bolivia, but, like, he didn't. He objectively didn't.

Garrison Davis (39:44)

Lol. Lol. Xd.

Mia Wong (39:46)

Like, I, I. Okay, I'm, I'm not, I'm, I'm not, I'm not gonna get into the price history of, of lithium here and how there was a market glut at that point, which is the exact opposite thing you would want there to be if you're trying to steal lithium. Like, it's nonsense. So people just believe this shit because it fits, it fits their version of reality. And the right is really happy to sort of play into this because they just play around with conspiracies.

Garrison Davis (40:08)

And this line from Trump is just bragging about having a lot of projected votes already. That's all it is. Yeah. The day before Inauguration Day, people alleged that Trump may have accidentally admitted to stealing the election in one of his speeches.

Mia Wong (40:22)

Oh, my fucking God.

Garrison Davis (40:23)

Let's take a look.

Raven (40:24)

Trump just told on himself.

Annabe Ad Voice (40:26)

He just credited Elon Musk's knowledge of.

Alt National Park Service Voice (40:30)

How voting machines work for his victory in Pennsylvania. He said this during his victory rally.

Garrison Davis (40:38)

In Washington, D.C. the night before the alleged inauguration. Let's listen to the audio.

Mia Wong (40:44)

And then he journeyed to Pennsylvania, where.

Garrison Davis (40:46)

He spent like a month and a.

Mia Wong (40:48)

Half campaigning for me in Pennsylvania. And he's a popular guy and he was very effective, and he knows those computers better than anybody. All those computers, those vote counting computers. And we ended up winning Pennsylvania, like, in a landslide. So it was pretty good. It was pretty good. So thank you to Elon.

Garrison Davis (41:08)

That is from a very popular TikToker. This particular video has 20,000 likes. I can't even find how many views it has says. But there's hundreds of comments talking about how the election was stolen. The same video was spread by people like, friend of the pod, Brooklyn dad, Defiant.

Mia Wong (41:24)

Oh, literally. God. Fucking. Okay, I need to spend five seconds.

Garrison Davis (41:29)

No, we don't have time.

Mia Wong (41:30)

He's literally paid by the Democratic Party.

Garrison Davis (41:32)

This is not used to be.

Mia Wong (41:34)

Yeah, he used to be literally paid by Democratic Party. He was a fucking oil guy. God damn it. Sorry.

Garrison Davis (41:39)

Okay. But he said, quote, is that a fucking confession? No. 23,000 likes. No, this line from Trump gets referenced a lot in liberal stolen election theories. Trump is not saying he won because Elon knows vote counting computers. Those two statements can be separate statements that are just right next to each other. Or it could be easily interpreted as saying that Elon Musk's computer knowledge helped prevent fraud, ensuring that if Dems tried to steal the election again, Elon would have caught them as 2020 Republican election denial focused heavily on voting machines. In terms of numbers on how many Democrats don't think the election was legitimate, we do have some statistics. In 2020, 88% of Democrats thought the election was legitimate and accurate. In 2024 it was only 63%, with 9% saying it was the result of illegal voting or election rigging and 29% saying they don't know if it was legitimate or accurate. Of course the Republicans found this election was extremely legitimate as compared to the last one in which a majority of Republicans thought it was the result of illegal voting or election rigging. But still, 29% of Democrats in 2024 not knowing if the election is accurate pretty pretty damaging. And obviously a lack of trust in election systems is an extremely damaging thing to the functioning of democracy. The reason why I decided to finally do this episode after pulling little research bits over the course of the past like year is a tweet from August 20th. Quote, Two whistleblowers have now confirmed that the NSA conducted an election audit and Harris was the winner. Don't Fucking ignore this. 146,000 likes, almost 30,000 retweets 5.5 million quote unquote views this went super viral. One of the biggest instances I've seen in recent election denial. This viral tweet links to a substack with over 51,000 subscribers and 3 million views. The focus of the blog is showing how Kamala Harris really won the 2024 election. The recent posts cover how a former CIA operative has confirmed that based on an NSA audit of the 2024 election, Kamala actually won. This was a, quote, covert, compartmentalized forensic audit, unquote.

Mia Wong (44:15)

It's literally just stop the steal. They did the same thing.

Garrison Davis (44:20)

It was completed in December 2024 and based on the findings, the NSA and CIA recommended a hand recount. But the recount was unable to take place before the January 6th election certification and since then the findings of the audit proving a Kamala victory have been covered up by Tulsi Gabbard and the Trump administration. This blog claims the election was stolen by hijacking voting machines and quote, illegally copied software Decades of vulnerabilities and the installation of a back door through a last minute change order right before the election, unquote. Now, there's a few problems with this theory, the first of which being that the NSA doesn't audit elections.

Robert Evans (45:02)

No.

Mia Wong (45:04)

What?

Garrison Davis (45:05)

This substacker also operates a still growing TikTok account to prevent being suppressed for misinformation. The user talks in coded phrases calling elections baking contests. State election results are either red cakes or blue cakes. Votes are ingredients. In her most popular video with about 75,000 views, she claims that Trump isn't giving red swing states FEMA aid because he knows that these states actually voted for Kamala Harris and so Trump is punishing them by withholding aid. This is her second most popular video with 50,000 views, talking about North Carolina and how Elon Musk and Peter Thiel worked together to alter election results.

Alt National Park Service Voice (45:53)

Hey, y'.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (45:54)

All.

Alt National Park Service Voice (45:54)

Quick update on the baking contest in North Cackalacky. And the cake is, in fact, we were able to identify about 197,000 ingredients that were swapped out by the space baker. So he and his friend, whose name rhymes with seal, have been up to some interesting things when it comes to these baking contests. So the surveillance seal and the space baker doing some. Doing some interesting baking. So we need you to let your media friends know and let all your. Let all the people know we're going to do an email campaign next week because that seems to be how we get this done. We do have avenues to undo this unholy mess and just hold on to your hope. Run over to my friends at the Backwards Ate and of course, the Common Coalition. Check out the report. We have more to report on all of the baking contests that we're working on. We're still digging. We got more to go. And blue skies ahead, y'.

Raven (46:50)

All.

Mia Wong (46:51)

There's something specifically, uniquely horrifying about the way that, like just the sort of TikTok language of sewer side or whatever like that people say like that kind of shit.

Garrison Davis (47:06)

This stuff just makes me really sad.

Mia Wong (47:08)

No, it's.

Garrison Davis (47:08)

It's so like I can't have fun with this anymore.

Mia Wong (47:16)

God damn it.

Garrison Davis (47:17)

The same thing when I was watching some of the Trump assassination videos when I realized this is just from people who are unwell and I can't even have fun with this. And that is also the case with a lot of QAnon stuff. You should be really careful about how much joy you take in the suffering of people and people displaying their suffering on the Internet by engaging in this stuff. But. But yeah, this. This stuff's just really sad. Like in other videos, she's pleading with her followers to contact their state governors to convince them to change all the voting machines because they've been compromised. And I'll play one more video before we close the episode. This is over 32,000 views. She talks about Trump using tariffs as leverage to get countries to sign deals with Elon Musk's Starlink satellites, which will then be used to control elections worldwide. And the only way to stop this is to impeach Trump and put Kamala in the White House, since she is the rightful winner of the 2024 election.

Alt National Park Service Voice (48:13)

They take from their constituents. Now to address the space cadet and how. Look at what he launched last year in record time, 10 months. This low orbit DTC constellation. And look at what they're doing with the countries around the world. To get your tariffs removed, you have to sign a contract with the space cadet.

Mia Wong (48:32)

Hello.

Alt National Park Service Voice (48:33)

This is not about any kind of, like, you know, Internet in the rural areas, blah, blah, blah. Nothing about this is to be nice. No, it is to control future contests. The US Was not the end game. It was the litmus test. So we can get out of this. We have Constitutional avenues news to get out of this situation, but we need Congress to act. And Congress won't act until the American people know what happened. And they're not going to know what happened until our influencers and our media handle the situation. So. Rachel Maddow, please. Lawrence. Midas touch, for heaven's sake. Midas touch. You guys, 4 million people, you could be blasting this out and letting the American people know what happened. Do your jobs, please.

Garrison Davis (49:20)

Please.

Alt National Park Service Voice (49:21)

So we can get the rightful people in the House that they belong in the big white one.

Mia Wong (49:28)

I think one of the things that makes me so insane about these is that, like, if you're actually, I guess Garrison, you weren't around for this. But, like, I've legitimately have lived through two attempts to steal an election, right? Like, there was 2000, which the Republicans just stole. And then, yeah, Donald Trump did try to steal the election in 2020, but he did it by having people try to form mobs outside of polling places. And then like his supporters did January 6th. That's a real thing. But the. The thing about these conspiracies is, like, they. They devour reality. They consume it and strip it for its constituent parts. Which is why you see so many, like, you know, used to see so many conspiracies that would, you know, if you look at their giant conspiracy charts, they're talking about, like the structure of the World bank and the imf and like, that's where the Bilderberg Group stuff comes out of. Right.

Garrison Davis (50:29)

They love charts.

Mia Wong (50:30)

The Bilderberg Group stuff is then taking the real structure of the International Monetary Fund and the World bank and then, you know, devouring that structure and spitting back out conspiracy and that. That's what these things do. They take, they take real things that happen in the world and just devour them and turn them into just nothing. And it makes it harder to act because, like, yeah, we do live in a world where the Republican Party has like, attempted to or successfully did steal two elections, but not this one.

Garrison Davis (51:04)

And if this is your mode of resistance, of hashtag resistance against Trump, that's useless. It's completely useless. It's not actually managing any of the effects of Trump on people like ice, like attacks on queer people. It's this fully contained non, non form of fighting.

Mia Wong (51:24)

Yeah. And like, like, you see, you see this, you see this too on the left with CIA stuff where it's like everyone is convinced that like the person they're arguing with on Twitter, like, is the CIA. And that the way that you combat CIA influence is by like spreading, I don't know, posting pro Assad shit. And it's like, that's not actually substantively combating the influence of the CIA. It just feels like it is. And that structure of feeling is so powerful that it prevents you from doing actual action.

Garrison Davis (51:50)

There's been this new conspiracy theory getting traction on Blue Sky a lot, that the masked people engaged in Immigration Enforcement ICE aren't actually ICE agents. They're secretly, quote, J6ers, bounty hunters or thugs, Oath keepers, proud boys. It's a big assumption to even say they're federal agents. They're not identified. We have no idea who they are. Could be proud boys or oath keepers or 3 percenters, unquote. This is trying to push the blame away from the US Government who is engaging in this action, ice onto these non state actors which people in their mind think are easier targets. And it's just a complete misunderstanding of power and it's a misunderstanding of the current political situation. And it gives you no, no ability to actually stop the bad things ICE are doing. But I've seen this theory gain a lot of traction online and in the.

Mia Wong (52:43)

In the same way that QAnon is a product of the cognitive dissonance of Trump supporters having to grapple with the fact that Trump is like their God king, is in power and their lives still suck. This Is this specific one is a product of the cognitive dissonance of like the fact that these people all supported ICE when Biden was the. When Biden was the run running it. When like Biden fucking did his executive order to shut the border down. Right. Like when Biden was like doing concentration camps in the desert, they were all pro ice. And then they suddenly have to deal with the world where ice is doing an ethnic cleansing and they can't process that. And so the way that they attempt to cope with it is being like, well that's actually not the real ice. That's like J6 Proud Boys.

Garrison Davis (53:21)

It's a groiper occupied government. They're sending out coded messages on Twitter. Yeah, yeah, it's the same thing me and you did the episode about a few weeks ago in our dog whistle politics and the hunt for coded Nazi messaging episode. But yeah. And though some Democratic voters are engaging in election denial, I think one key difference from 2020 Republican election denial is that liberal election officials have as of yet not been willing to participate in this rhetoric openly or pursue these baseless fraud accusations. This is still one difference. But I think it's a ticking clock. I think it's only a matter of time, especially once we see the midterms that people running for office Democrats might start embracing some kind of wingnutty stuff. The same way Marjorie Taylor Greene Trojan horsed wing nutty politics into Congress. And now we see a whole bunch of other representatives being able to engage in conspiratorial thought on the right. There's gonna be a few instances of this, I think in the next midterm election for Democrats. It's something to keep an eye out for. Cause I think it's only a matter of time. Like what I mentioned in that CCRU quote, mundane reality is going to lose because this stuff is just more interesting. People are gonna try to buy it and it requires constant pushback. That does it for part one. But there's gonna be another episode tomorrow where I talk with Jack of the Alt Watcher BlueSky account to discuss the latest evolution of BlueAnon and possibly the most Qanoni extension of Blue Anon we've seen yet. The alt National Park Service and their coded messages being sent out on Blue sky and Facebook book. So stay tuned for that tomorrow. And remember, you are not immune to propaganda.

Annabe Ad Voice (55:25)

Let's be real life happens. Kids spill, pets shed and accidents are inevitable. Find a sofa that can keep up@washablesofas.com starting at just $699 our sofas are fully machine washable inside and out so you can say goodbye to stains and hello to worry free living. Made with liquid and stain resistant fabrics, they're kid proof, pet friendly and built for everyday life. Plus changeable fabric covers let you refresh refresh your sofa whenever you want. Neat flexibility. Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa anytime to fit your space whether it's a growing family room or a cozy apartment. Plus, they're earth friendly and trusted by over 200,000 happy customers. It's time to upgrade to a stress free mess proof sofa. Visit washablesofas.com today and save that's washablesofas.com offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

Mark Lombardo Narrator (56:24)

What would you do if one bad decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison or the most brutal boot camp designed to be hell on Earth? Unfortunately for Mark Lombardo, this was the choice he faced.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (56:37)

He said, you are a number, a.

Garrison Davis (56:39)

New York state number, and we own you.

Mark Lombardo Narrator (56:42)

Shock Incarceration, also known as boot camps, are short term, highly regimented correctional programs that mimic military basic training. These programs aim to provide a shock of prison life, emphasizing strict discipline, physical training, hard labor and rehabilitation programs. Mark had one chance to complete this program and had no idea of the hell awaiting him the next six months.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (57:08)

The first night was overwhelming and you don't know who's actually and we didn't know what to expect in the morning. Nobody tells you anything.

Mark Lombardo Narrator (57:16)

Listen to Shock incarceration on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Honey German (57:24)

Hola, it's Honey German and my podcast, Gracias Come Again is back. This season we're going even deeper into the world of music and entertainment with raw and honest conversations with some of your favorite Latin artists and celebrities. You didn't have to audition.

Garrison Davis (57:37)

No, I didn't audition. I haven't auditioned like over 25 years.

Honey German (57:41)

Oh wow. That's a real G talk right there.

Raven (57:43)

Oh yeah.

Honey German (57:44)

We've got some of the biggest actors, musicians, content creators and culture shifters sharing their real stories of failure and success. You were destined to be a star. We talk all about what's viral and trending with a little bit of chisme, a lot of laughs, and those amazing vibras you've come come to expect. And of course we'll explore deeper topics dealing with identity struggles and all the issues affecting our Latin community. You feel like you get a little whitewashed because you have to do the code switching.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (58:14)

I won't Say whitewash because at the.

Garrison Davis (58:16)

End of the day, you know, I'm me.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (58:17)

Yeah, but the whole pretending and coat, you know, it takes a toll on you.

Honey German (58:21)

Listen to the new season of Grasses. Come again as part of Michael Tura Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

Simone Boyce (58:31)

Hi, it's Gemma Spag, host of the psychology of your 20s. Remember when you used to have science week at school? Well, if you loved that, how would you feel about a full psychology month this September? At the psychology of your 20s, we're breaking down the interesting ways psychology applies to real life. Like how our pets actually change our brain chemistry, the psychology of osteoporosis, office politics, whether happiness is even a real emotion. And my favorite episode, why do we all secretly crave external validation? It's so interesting to me that we are so quick to believe others judgments of us and not our own. I found a study that said not being liked actually creates similar levels of pain as physical pain. Like, no wonder we care so much. So the secret is, if you want to be okay with not being liked, you have to know why your brain craves it in the first place. Learn more about the psychology of external validation, everyday life, and of course, your twenties. This September, listen to the psychology of your twenties on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Garrison Davis (59:44)

17, 2, 19, 227. General public, please disregard as this podcast is fighting battles on multiple fronts. This podcast is it could happen here and I'm Garrison Davis. Last episode I talked with Mia Wang about the trajectory of liberal conspiracy theories. Specifically throughout the last 10 years, from Russiagate to Trump's staged assassination and 2024 election denial, this resurgence of liberal conspiracism has been dubbed BlueAnon. If you want more background on that, go listen to our previous episode. But this episode is about a new evolution of BlueAnon and possibly the most QAnon Y iteration we've seen yet. The Alt National Park Service. A social media engagement farming account that gained traction on Blue sky and Facebook last February and March amidst cuts to the Park Service from the Trump administration. This account gained followers by posing as a group of anti Trump dissidents from within the Park Service. And soon enough it inspired a collection of other alt government accounts like alt cdc, alt nih, Alt Yellowstone, and alt Noah. The original alt National Park Service account basically never talks about the Park Service itself, but during the first few months of Trump's second term, the account started going viral by posting Sequences of random numbers as ostensibly coded messages to other hashtag resistance fighters. Though the account has since experimented with, altered and refined their engagement strategies. To hear more about that and how AALT National Park Service fits into this trend of liberal conspiracy theories, I talked with someone who has spent the past few months documenting and writing about this account, the person who runs the Alt Watcher account on bluesky and writes about their research on the blog Dispatches from the online Void. So here's that interview.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (62:04)

My name is Jack. I'm the user behind the account Alt Watcher on bluesky and I've been following the Alton National Park Service for about six months, just documenting what they do and how they steal from journalists and how they're driving a lot of people insane, including me.

Garrison Davis (62:20)

What is the alt National Park Service? Or first, what does the alt National Park Service claim to be?

Jack (Alt Watcher) (62:30)

Yeah, that's an important difference. The alt National Park Service claims to be a loose affiliation of anonymous former parks employees that are either still employed by the Park Service and kind of working behind the scenes or who were fired or laid off by the Trump administration and are now part of a nationwide coalition to resist the government. That's what they claim to be. What they really are is just a Facebook shitposting account. We're not sure if it's one person behind it or if it's a group. It's remarkably hard to find out anything about the person who is behind the account, who they are, where they are and how they started this. But what they do most of the time is repost the work of journalists, directly plagiarize from news outlets, and post these vaguely conspiratorial things online to try to whip up engagement from their followers.

Garrison Davis (63:22)

I first became aware of this back in probably March of 2025, specifically when on Blue sky they just started posting a lot of numbers. Yes, I was aware that this account was created in the aftermath of some doge related cuts to the Park Service or anti dei, anti woke stuff. And then this account popped up claiming to be, you know, resistance from inside to people who watch politics, like seriously for their jobs, was very clear that this was not a legitimate organization. And then they just started posting numbers, sequences of numbers along with, with other cryptic messages. And this like immediately starts hitting like the QAnon bells. Back in July of 2024, there's a Washington Post article about the Trump assassination conspiracy theories. But specifically it was, it was in a, I think it was an opinion piece critical of terming liberal conspiracy theories as, as quote unquote, Blue Anon. They. They said, quote, the main similarity of QAnon and Blue Anon is that they rhyme. And for a while, I kind of understood this criticism and. And agree with parts of it because there was. There was structural differences between some of how, you know, liberals or like, quote, unquote, the left engaged in conspiratorial thinking and, like, the function of QAnon. The numbers thing started to really mess with that analysis because then you started to see the actual, like, methodology and like, the ideological function of. Of QAnon start to get replicated in what is most likely just like engagement farming. But for. For the people who are following this account and engaging with it and, like, it becomes like, an important part of, like, their life and their. Their perception of, like, hashtag resistance. And I think that's where Blue and on actually proved itself as a term was in March of 25, I guess. Let's talk about the numbers.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (65:33)

You know what I would love? I would love to talk about the numbers. The numbers are also what stood out to me, and that is why I ended up making my account and diving into all this. During the pandemic, I got obsessed with QAnon, you know, as just, what is this?

Garrison Davis (65:48)

A lot of people did.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (65:50)

A lot of people did, you know, look, pandemic did a lot of crazy things to us. Some people learned to knit, some people got good at baking. I got really into learning about QAnon. And I am a huge fan of the QAA podcast. I listen to that constantly. And as soon as I saw Alt NPS post one of the numbers, I realized I'm reading this in their cue voice. Yeah, their voice. Modulated voice that sounds like this whenever they would post. And I started reading all the numbers post that way. And just like you said, something clicked. And I went, oh, this is. Oh, I see what they're doing here.

Garrison Davis (66:27)

Yeah.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (66:28)

And they posted numbers many times. I've got my giant spreadsheet pulled up here, and I think they've posted something like 30 numbers. It's been a while since they've done it, but the thing that really gave the game away for me was during one of these numbers posts, they posted some random number and then replied to themselves and said, for discussion, what do you think these numbers mean? And I said, oh, I see what's happening here.

Garrison Davis (66:54)

Kind of giving away the game there a little bit.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (66:56)

Exactly. Yeah. This is not a group of government insiders communicating with their coalition. This is the user behind a Facebook account realizing in real time that they've stumbled on Like a gold mine for engagement.

Garrison Davis (67:11)

Yeah.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (67:11)

Oh, we can just do this, and people will do the work for us. And we're just gonna say that out loud.

Garrison Davis (67:19)

And throughout, like, March and April, their count just, like, rocketed in popularity.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (67:25)

Yes.

Garrison Davis (67:26)

I've not actually looked on their Facebook account besides, like, the post that you've shared. I've only seen them on Blue Sky. What is the difference of their presence on Facebook versus, like, Blue Sky.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (67:37)

Blue Sky. I think they're at something like 900k on Facebook. The last time I checked, it was about 4.3 million.

Garrison Davis (67:43)

Jeez.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (67:44)

Yeah. They are a massive presence on Facebook and they've been monetizing their posts. Recently. There have been sponsored content on Facebook leading to their page.

Garrison Davis (67:54)

This is where I think one of the differences from, like, how QAnon functioned and alt National Park Service, because, you know, Q was not monetizing posts on the chance.

Robert Evans (68:05)

No.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (68:06)

I would have loved to see him try. That'd be really funny.

Garrison Davis (68:09)

I do not see, like, this account existing as, like, a. As a sort of operation to influence the political trajectory of the United States. The same way that the QAnon account at least evolved in that capacity, even if it started off as, like, a shitposting thing.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (68:24)

Exactly.

Garrison Davis (68:24)

It certainly evolved with. With more of a malicious intent. The people behind, you know, Q posting.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (68:30)

Yeah. I think that's a big difference between them, is that this is straightforwardly an engagement farm.

Garrison Davis (68:36)

Yeah. Using some of those tactics, especially, like, early on, but for a very simple reason. And that's making money on the Internet, like everybody is trying to do. It's just like Internet hustle culture stuff, with no grappling with the consequences that has. For the psyche of people who engage with your content.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (68:57)

Exactly. And the psyche of people who engage with this content is really what keeps me coming back to this project, because that is the real harm I see here. Online grifters are a dime a dozen. People who sell stuff online, it's everywhere. It's inescapable. What's unique about alt NPS is that they are trying to make money on convincing people that this is real. They're not just selling hashtag resist shirts or whatever. They're trying to get money out of people by convincing them that they really are part of a shadow resistance against Trump and that you can buy their shirts or you can straightforwardly just send them money for things like their Alt Junior Ranger program that they've said they're starting. And if you send them a dollar, you're helping fund that program. And it's totally real. And the fact that they didn't mention it for seven straight months after initially announcing it is something you definitely shouldn't worry about.

Garrison Davis (69:52)

Do you know what else you definitely shouldn't worry about? This short ad break. So they have faced pushback for their numbers posting, but they have found a way to. To justify it publicly. Do you want to talk about like, how they. They've framed the posting of just like four numbers, two numbers, and like the sort of like defense of the account that it plays?

Jack (Alt Watcher) (70:25)

Yeah, that was. This maybe says something about me, but that was maybe the post that made me the angriest of anything they've done. Because I. I have a deep seated reaction to feeling like someone who thinks I'm stupid. And all I could think is, do you think I'm an idiot? When I saw their. Their reaction to this. Because as we. We are often criticized for the numbers we post online. We can't tell you everything. Sorry. And then they went on this big half explanation about stingrays and cell site simulators.

Garrison Davis (70:56)

Cell site simulators?

Jack (Alt Watcher) (70:58)

Yeah. But they didn't explain what those actually do. They did not explicitly claim they were being surveilled by one, and they didn't explain why the existence of stingrays and cell site simulators means that they should do all this on Facebook instead.

Garrison Davis (71:14)

Posting numbers does not bypass the security concerns posed by the presence of a cell site simulator. No, because you're still posting publicly on the Internet. That doesn't matter at all. Yeah, you're pulling something out of your ass that sounds technical that's going to trick your, you know, average boomer and maybe, you know, three out of five Gen X people who are scrolling Facebook slash blue sky and like, that's, that's all they need to do. But for anyone who knows what a cell site simulator is or how like Internet communications works, it's very clear that this is just like completely bullshit.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (71:52)

It's completely bullshit because you're right that this is all they need to do. They just need to deflect. And I think that's what stood out to me about this post in particular is that it showed me that the person or people behind all time P.S. have a genuine level of PR skill. You know, they have a certain level of what I think is a real skill at deflection, public relations and being able to spin what they're saying. You know, that's a genuine skill. It's a shame that it's being applied to this instead of, I mean, anything else. But that is a skill that they have that they're able to deploy in defense of their conspiratorial posting.

Garrison Davis (72:28)

The other thing that they post in relation to the numbers is their one time four word catchphrase, general public can disregard. Do you want to talk about the context of those posts?

Jack (Alt Watcher) (72:40)

Yes. Those were replies that they would make to the numbers post, usually to the numbers post, but occasionally to just some other cryptic thing they would post. They would post their number, say 44, and then they would reply to themselves saying general public and disregard. Or they'd say, please disregard if you are a member of the general public. And there were a lot of people online who saw that and thought, oh, that must mean it's a code. It has to be real.

Garrison Davis (73:11)

They're engaged in some sort of like secret agent spy work. And this is really important.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (73:17)

Yeah, yeah. And I, I would see a lot of people push back on any criticism that the account would get for this by saying things like it's code for a reason. You know, guys, they're speaking in code. Don't try to crack the code. It's not for us. You know, this is for the coalition. And whenever anybody would say, I don't think this is real or like any of the things we've talked about, about why this doesn't make sense, they would instantly be accused of being a right wing infiltrator or a troll or a MAGA spy or something like that. You know, there can be no actual criticism of the account. There can only be infiltration.

Garrison Davis (73:55)

Yeah. And that does have more like Q overlap, I suppose.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (73:59)

Absolutely.

Garrison Davis (73:59)

I don't know. It's, it's odd because like throughout, throughout writing about all this like blue and on stuff, as much as this stuff is a legitimate problem, like which, which it is, it's just a symptom of a larger political problem in America. And the people engaged with it, if anything, are kind of victims as well as like perpetrators. And like this was the same thing with like QAnon where like your average person engaged with it, as bad as it is, and some of the stuff that they might like, say or do. I also just feel bad for the people involved. And it's, it's the same thing with this as, as, as annoying as this kind of like lib slop can be. The people who have to, have to believe in something like this in order to like keep going. That is kind of like a tragedy in a way. And this is obviously is serving some important psychological function for them.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (74:54)

Yeah, I totally agree. And I think that's that sadness, I think, is what keeps me wanting to engage with this. You know, when I look at this and I see alt NPS trying to get people to buy their T shirts or just farm engagement, that's not remarkable to me. That's normal.

Garrison Davis (75:12)

Yeah.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (75:12)

That happens on the Internet all the time. What keeps me coming back to wanting to fight this and wanting to document all this is the people I see in the replies.

Garrison Davis (75:21)

Yeah.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (75:21)

The people who say that alt NPS brings them so much hope. It's what's keeping them from falling into despair. And it's not that I want to take that away from them. It's that I don't like that their need for that is being used.

Garrison Davis (75:34)

Yeah. This is like a predatory mode of trying to capitalize on that.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (75:38)

Absolutely. Yeah. The account is trying to capitalize on people's need for hope.

Garrison Davis (75:42)

Yeah.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (75:42)

You know, they need to believe that there is someone fighting for them because in a lot of ways, it doesn't feel like anyone is. You know, it feels like our politicians are ineffectual, our institutions are crumbling. We need someone to be there. We need. Ironically, we need patriots to be in control.

Garrison Davis (76:00)

Yeah.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (76:01)

We need to trust the plan. There. There is an appeal to that, and I do understand that. I understand that these people are looking for a light in the darkness, and I. I really can't pretend that I'm not doing the same thing totally through my writing on this. I need something to cling to. And I can't blame anybody for feeling that way, too.

Garrison Davis (76:18)

I mean, that's why I feel like your project, though, comes from a much, like, better and, like, healthier place, because you are. You are looking at this, like, decline in nationwide American sanity and trying to do something about it, even if that's just a documentation, and then writing about it and trying to explain to people and, like, help. Help people understand where the psyche of the country is. And I think part of what makes me so interested in your project is that, like, it reminds me a little bit of people who started studying QAnon, you know, back in, like, 2017. 2018.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (76:52)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Garrison Davis (76:53)

Back when it was just this little, little cute, small thing. And then you fast forward years later, they realize they've actually done some extremely important, like, work documenting a phenomenon that is shaping the trajectory of our country. And I don't know if alt National Park Service is going to evolve in this same way, but I think the. The slow embrace of this sort of conspiratorial thinking among decently sized, like, chunks of the Democratic base. I think is very notable and work like what you're doing, I think actually has a, a really important place in trying to like map where our country might might be headed. And yeah, in a few years it might somehow it might turn out to be super important when the libs finally do their own J6 so.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (77:48)

Yeah, I mean I, to be honest, I would be very happy if this whole thing petered out.

Garrison Davis (77:54)

Sure.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (77:55)

You know, I would be very happy if one day the account just stops posting and there is no years long continuation with this like there was with something like you and I, you know. But I do think alt NPS is a part of a broader ecosystem of this Blue Anon world. And you know, I do agree with what you said earlier that Blue Anon is a phrase that I think does get overused. That there are some things that are just normal people, you know, expressing their political opinions that kind of gets derided as oh, Blue Anon. But it really is just people being normal or people being extremely online. But alt NPS is a part of a bigger world of this sort of vaguely left wing conspiracies. I'm seeing a lot of crossover between people who post in reply to alt NPS and people who have this sort of mantra about Trump that he wasn't shot, he didn't win, he's on the list. And you see that exact phrase you know, posted over and over and over again. It's in pictures, it's in memes, it's in people's posts. And I think alt NPS is a part of that. I think they're emblematic of that.

Garrison Davis (79:00)

Yeah.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (79:01)

That you are not immune to conspiratorial think. We are not better than that.

Garrison Davis (79:06)

No. And they're facilitating, I think, that mindset. I think liberals became so susceptible to it because they had this conception that they're immune to it. That conspiracy thinking is something that only exists on the political right.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (79:18)

Yes. That's for other people.

Garrison Davis (79:20)

And this is part of what I'm going to write about, like in general, but like the way that consensus reality was like sheared down so heavily during, during the first Trump administration and like parts of the Biden administration by people on the right that like weakened this notion we have of consensus reality, that then liberals kind of got blindsided by when events happened that were hard to understand or felt so surreal or like bombastic that it allowed a split that was already there to, to grow into a pretty wide opening where you now believe that major historical events are fake and staged, that an election is stolen and you're like, what, what does this remind you of? Like what?

Jack (Alt Watcher) (80:01)

Yes.

Garrison Davis (80:02)

What are the things you're saying remind you of? Isn't this part of why you're against the Trump movement in the first place?

Jack (Alt Watcher) (80:08)

Yeah, and I think God help you if you ever try and point that out.

Garrison Davis (80:13)

Yeah.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (80:14)

You know, to, to a lot of the people in these replies of just like, hey guys, doesn't a lot of this smell a lot like you and not, you know, doesn't this sound a lot like the way people talked about the 2020 election? You know, doesn't this smell the same way? And that is when people in, especially in Alton BS's replies will go nuclear. You know, there are, I've seen some incredible dogpiles in response to people bringing this up. Even if it's, if it's anodyne, you know, even if it is just, hey guys, just a reminder, I think this is something that we should, you know, maybe I'll take with a grain of salt. People go nuts. You know, they, they need to believe it needs to be real and it needs to be unquestioned and that there can be no good faith questioning of this idea.

Garrison Davis (80:56)

Do you know what else is an unquestioned truth that we have to go on? One more ad break before we return to conclude our discussion on the alt National Park Service. It's easy to see how they reach just a certain like ceiling on how much they can just numbers post and have that be a reliable method of engagement that they've started to like experiment with with with different types of posting to see what makes people stick, what can help help with engagement over a long period of time instead of just like rocketing to like virality first but then having a stable audience. And now they're basically a news aggregator account but deceptively framing where they are getting their, their news from.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (81:47)

Yeah, they are a news aggregator account with massive caveats.

Garrison Davis (81:52)

Yes. Well, I mean, I think most news aggregator accounts are actually bad.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (81:56)

Yeah, I'd agree.

Garrison Davis (81:57)

This is something we saw in 2020 was how unreliable news aggregator accounts were and how much of a harm that they caused. And I see the current version of alt National Park Service as kind of an extension of that. Taken to a slightly higher level. I suppose.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (82:14)

I'm obsessed with this. I've said that a few times, but I've documented what I think is most of the times that they have posted a news article without attribution and either just described something where they could have or should have posted a link to an actual article or more Often just copy pasting sections of an article and reposting it as though they wrote it. You know, those are the ones that really get me. Those are the, the aspects of their, their news aggregation where you say this is just plagiarism. You know, this is just you stealing verbatim from an article and acting as though you wrote it because you want your audience to think that you are a government insider with all this inside information. And that information like that is coming first to you, not to the New York Times, not to cnn, even though.

Garrison Davis (82:59)

You'Re just posting sections of the New York Times and cnn.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (83:04)

Yeah, I mean they, they took the first, I think, three paragraphs of an article from Wired and did it word for word. Didn't link to Wired, didn't say where it came from, and implied that the information was being sent to the rangers of the alt National Park Service instead of to journalists at Wired. This happens constantly, you know, and every time I think, well, they've been posting more links lately, they've been linking directly to actual sources of information. Every time I start thinking that they do it again, you know, they steal another thing again, or they've started posting to Court Watcher or directly to government documents in what I'm thinking is an attempt to dodge accusations like the one I make. Somebody in my comments described it as the don't cite Wikipedia. Cite Wikipedia's reference page problem. They're reading an article from npr and rather than just saying, hey, we heard this in NPR, they're going to NPR's citation of the Department of Justice and linking directly to that instead to make it look like they're diligently watching government court records and posting them for our benefit the moment they come out instead of just, we saw this in the.

Garrison Davis (84:11)

Washington Post and they've been engaging this for like a few months now with this sort of behavior.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (84:16)

Oh yeah, they've been doing that since January, February.

Garrison Davis (84:19)

Yeah.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (84:20)

They've also started claiming for a while and then they stopped that one of their sources that they would list at the end of their posts was an unnamed official in whatever relevant government agency they were talking about. Our sources include this newspaper, this website, and an unnamed Department of Justice official, an unnamed Department of Education official. They suddenly stopped doing that as soon as they started. There was about a week or two where that was behind about every post.

Garrison Davis (84:46)

Anything else you want to add about either the existence of these, like, alt accounts or like any other like, aspect of this world you want to mention before we, before we close up?

Jack (Alt Watcher) (84:56)

Yeah, I do have two Quick ones. And the first is that among the alt accounts that you see online, the alt National Park Service is overwhelmingly the most malicious and the most harmful. There are maybe a couple others that get a little wild that are maybe a little conspiratorial. I think alt Noah has been kind of in the spotlight for that lately. But a lot of them, like alt cdc, the alt Forest Service, all these random little alt government agency accounts are pretty harmless. They really are just posting links to news articles or given updates on their relevant agency. Alt Forest Service mostly talks about the Forest Service. Alt CDC mostly talks about the cdc. Alt NPS basically never talks about the National Park Service. I think I can count on one hand the times that they have said anything about the parks. There was a point when I think it was in the big beautiful budget bill where there were these massive cuts being proposed to the National Park Service. And they talked about the bill as a whole and didn't mention anything about the cuts to the Park Service.

Garrison Davis (86:06)

Well, you never know who's. Who's watching the communication channels. You got to be careful. There's cell site simulators out there.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (86:12)

There's cell site simulators out there. And then the second thing is that I'm always very careful in my writing and in my posts to emphasize that the people who follow this account are not the problem. The account itself is. You know, I always want to make sure to have a lot of empathy for people who follow this account because I understand why they do. I understand the hope they're looking for. And I never want to do what I see some people do in the replies to Alt NPS's posts, which is dunking on their followers. You know, how do you rubes believe this? Do you idiots still think this is real? I never want to do that because that doesn't help anyone. What that does is make them dig in. It makes them double down. So I always want to make sure to treat the followers of these accounts with respect, treat them with empathy, talk to them like a person. And that's how I've managed to get a few people to get out. I've managed to have people tell me that it was through my writing and other people's work on this topic that they were able to get out. They were able to disengage from this world of fake spies and code numbers. And I think that matters. I think that that helps with every little bit we do. And it starts by just being nice to people, just being kind to people who are looking for hope in the.

Garrison Davis (87:31)

World we live in where can people find your work both on social media and then also your writing?

Jack (Alt Watcher) (87:37)

You can find me on bluesky@altwatcher, BSky Social and I am unfortunately still on substack at my name it's J. Joyce Lynch. You can also look for Dispatches from the Online Void is the name of the blog.

Garrison Davis (87:52)

There should absolutely be more people reading your Dispatches from the Online Void. There's some very very solid work just straightly documenting the phenomenon that we've been talking about this episode and specifically the alt National Park Service.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (88:07)

I really appreciate it.

Garrison Davis (88:08)

Yeah, it's fantastic. Very non editorialized. Just just showing you what's happening. Extremely well put together.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (88:15)

Well thanks, thanks. It's nice of you to say thanks.

Garrison Davis (88:18)

Again to Jack for talking with me about alt National Park Service. I strongly recommend people seek out his research both on Dispatches from the Online Void and Blue Sky. Before I close this episode, I want to remind everybody that you too are not immune to propaganda. This past weekend, the Internet has been abuzz with rumors and speculation that Trump died over the weekend or was actively dying. And there's been attempts to cover it up when in fact he just went on a brief Labor Day weekend holiday. People were sharing AI altered images to make Trump look more sickly and were speculating about road closures around Walter Reed Medical center, sharing a map with roads blocked off. But in fact there were no irregular road closures and this map of supposed closures that was spreading online just showed old security gates. People concocted elaborate theories that Putin poisoned Trump during their last meeting and that when the quote unquote president was supposed to give an announcement on Tuesday afternoon, it would be Trump resigning for health reasons or Vance would come out and announce Trump died and he is now the president. And sure enough, come Tuesday afternoon, Trump appeared perfectly normal for a press conference. Even in the lead up to the press conference, I saw people continuing these conspiracy theories with sometimes a tad of irony. But as the press conference got delayed an hour, there was more and more speculation about Trump's declining health. And yeah, he is an old man, but he's not going to drop dead this weekend. This isn't true. This is a copium strategy and the way people have been talking about it is very similar to the liberal conspiracy theories that I've been reading about these past few weeks. And as fun as it can be to speculate about a president's health, as many people did last time we had a geriatric president. When was that? Oh, last year. But as much fun as it is things can quickly spiral out of your conspiratorial control, even when your perspasion is from the safety of ironic detachment. I'll talk a little bit more about Trump's imminent death theories on this week's episode of Executive Disorder, but until then, just remember you are not immune to propaganda.

Annabe Ad Voice (91:05)

Life's messy. We're talking spills, stains, pets and kids. But with Annabe, you never have to stress about messes again. @washablesofas.com Discover Annabe sofas, the only fully machine washable sofas inside and out, starting at just $699. Made with liquid and stain resistant fabrics, that means fewer stains and more peace of mind. Designed for real life, our sofas feature changeable fabric covers allowing you to refresh your style anytime. Need flexibility? Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa effortlessly. Perfect for cozy apartments, apartments or spacious homes. Plus, they're earth friendly and built to last. That's why over 200,000 happy customers have made the switch. Upgrade your space today. Visit washablesofas.com now and bring home a sofa made for life. That's washablesofas.com offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

Honey German (92:04)

Hola, it's Honey German and my podcast Gracias Come Again is back. This season we're going even deeper into the world of music and entertainment with raw and honest conversations with some of your favorite Latin artists and celebrities. You didn't have to audition?

Garrison Davis (92:18)

No, I didn't audition. I haven't auditioned like over 25 years.

Honey German (92:21)

Oh wow. That's a real G talk right there.

Raven (92:24)

Oh yeah.

Honey German (92:25)

We've got some of the biggest actors, musicians, content creators and culture shifters sharing their real stories of failure and success. You were destined to be a star. We talk all about what's viral and trending with a little bit of chisme, a lot of laughs and those amazing vivas you've come to expect. And of course we'll explore deeper topics dealing with identity struggles and all the issues affecting our Latin community. You feel like you get a little whitewashed because you have to do the code switching.

Garrison Davis (92:55)

I won't say whitewashed because at the end of the day, you know, I'm me.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (92:58)

Yeah, but the whole pretending and coat, you know, but it takes a toll on you.

Honey German (93:02)

Listen to the new season of Grass has come again as part of Michael Tura Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

Mark Lombardo Narrator (93:11)

What would you do if one bad decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison or the most brutal boot camp designed to be hell on earth. Unfortunately for Mark Lombardo, this was the choice he faced.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (93:24)

He said, you are a number, a.

Garrison Davis (93:27)

New York state number, and we own you.

Mark Lombardo Narrator (93:29)

Shock incarceration, also known as boot camps, are short term, highly regimented correctional programs that mimic military basic training. These programs aim to provide a shock of prison life, emphasizing strict discipline, physical training, hard labor, and rehabilitation programs. Mark had one chance to complete this program and had no idea of the hell awaiting him the next six months.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (93:56)

The first night was overwhelming and you don't know who's next to you and we didn't know what to expect in the morning. Nobody tells you anything.

Mark Lombardo Narrator (94:03)

Listen to shock incarceration on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Simone Boyce (94:12)

Hi, it's Gemma Spegg, host of the psychology of your 20s. Remember when you used to have science week at school? Well, if you loved that, how would you feel about a full psychology month this September? At the psychology of your 20s, we're breaking down the interesting ways psychology applies to real life, like how our pets actually change our brain chemistry, the psychology of office politics, whether happiness is even a real emotion. And my favorite episode, why do we all secretly crave of external validation? It's so interesting to me that we are so quick to believe others judgments of us and not our own. I found a study that said not being liked actually creates similar levels of pain as physical pain. Like, no wonder we care so much. So the secret is if you want to be okay with not being liked, you have to know why your brain craves it in the first place. Learn more about the psychology of external validation, everyday life, and of course, your 20s. This September, listen to the psychology of your 20s on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Mia Wong (95:23)

Welcome to it could happen Here, a podcast whereby my longtime home city of Chicago is preparing for a federal occupation. I am your host, Mia Wong, and with me to talk about what the fuck is going on about a thing that at the end of last year, as bad as we thought this was going to be, was basically unimaginable. With me talk about. This is Raven, who's a journalist from the independent outlet Unraveled in Chicago, which does a lot of really, really excellent work on the ground, reporting on social movements in the city, reporting on the government, does a bunch of incredible works. Done some really good stuff on shotspotter. Yeah, Raven, welcome to the show.

Raven (96:02)

Yeah, thank you for such A beautiful intro.

Mia Wong (96:05)

Yeah, thanks for, thanks for doing this. I don't know, like, I'm a really big fan of Unraveled. I think most of the newspapers in Chicago are like just weird right wing rags and getting actual good news out of the city is kind of difficult.

Raven (96:21)

Because it's like, yeah, we, we have, we have a good number now, like digital indie outlets in the city, but once you get out outside of Cook county, you know, the Chicago metro area is huge. And like, yeah, it's all like pink slime garbage. Like everything's been bought out. They don't have like real reporters anymore. So it can be a huge challenge to cover things like just in the collar counties, which is.

Mia Wong (96:47)

Yeah.

Raven (96:47)

Coincidentally also where a lot of this ice activity might be happening in the next 45 days, 30 days, however long it lasts.

Mia Wong (96:56)

Yeah. So let's, I guess from the jump, before we get into sort of the kind of long arc of ice and the feds in, in Chicago over the last year, let's talk about Trump's thing to send in the National Guard and the stuff the people in the city are really concerned about.

Raven (97:14)

Yeah, well, you know, there's kind of two things happening simultaneously. Right. Trump is threatening the National Guard, which has been a thing. Like threatening the National Guard against Chicago has been a thing with him for like a while. And it can be very difficult to tease out like what, what level of it is propaganda and what level of it is like, really happening. Right. But the other more important part here is we do know now, like conclusively that DHS is planning a large operation in like Los Angeles style. So everything that's been happening around la.

Mia Wong (97:45)

Yeah.

Raven (97:46)

For the last few months is moving to Chicago. This is what the Chief of Border Patrol has said. You know, he just put out like a social media video that was saying they're trading palm trees for skyscrapers and bringing a few hundred guys with DHS ice, Border Patrol to Chicago. So it's pretty wild. I don't think I've ever seen Border Patrol in numbers on the ground here in the Great Lakes. We've always known it's like a thing that could conceivably happen because we're technically like a border city. But you know, to be staring it in the face now knowing like it's real, like it's actually happening, it's obviously feels like a real emergency for our communities.

Mia Wong (98:28)

Yeah. And I think that's the interesting thing, like talking to you and then talking to other people on the ground is that like the National Guard deployment is what's getting all of the press.

Raven (98:39)

Right.

Mia Wong (98:39)

And people really aren't that worried about it, it's worth pointing out. So we're recording this on the morning of like Wednesday, September 3rd.

Raven (98:50)

Yeah.

Mia Wong (98:50)

So it's possible that stuff has changed by the time this episode goes out like tonight because the situation is shifting really rapidly.

Raven (98:59)

Right, right.

Mia Wong (99:00)

But you know, there's this whole fight over whether the Texas National Guard is being deployed here on a federal deployment. But people don't really seem to be worried about the National Guard. And I think kind of for good reason, they didn't really. I mean, they did some protest stuff, I guess, but like they mostly kind of are there to make it look like there's troops in the street.

Raven (99:18)

Right.

Mia Wong (99:19)

While ICE and DHS does like the most horrific.

Raven (99:23)

Right. That's been sort of the, the understanding of what's happened in Los Angeles. And then in D.C. it's gone a little bit differently just because they have so many feds on already. So they've been able to do a lot of traffic stops in these little Fed tactical teams. So you'll have like, like some FBI guys, some DEA guys, maybe like an HSI guy. I just read in WaPo the other day, they've crashed like six cars in D.C. i mean like it's, it's really dangerous. The kinds of stops these guys are executing, they're jump outs. Right. It's not like officer friendly, like pulling you over. License and registration, please. You know, it's like, yeah, really violent and, and they're in unmarked cars and they're like trying to surprise people. So that is, you know, also what we're expecting to see alongside like the ICE operations is these Fed teams crawling through the city. You know, I don't know when they're going to be doing what, where, but like I said, the Chicagoland area, you know, the suburbs, everything around, it's very big.

Mia Wong (100:25)

Yeah.

Raven (100:26)

You know, there's every indication this isn't going to be centralized just to like downtown Chicago.

Mia Wong (100:31)

Yeah. And like, I think this is something that's kind of hard to understand if you're not from Chicago. But like, like even just the city proper is massive.

Raven (100:40)

Yeah.

Mia Wong (100:40)

Right. Like it takes like, I mean, I haven't driven it in a long time, but like, I think, I think if you're trying to go from like the top of like the north side to like the bottom of the south side, that's like hour and a half, two hour drive. Right. It's massive.

Raven (100:52)

Right. And this naval station where they're basing operations isn't even in the city. It's two hours north in a different county.

Mia Wong (100:59)

Yeah.

Raven (101:00)

So there are a lot of questions right now. I don't have the answers. Nobody, nobody's going to know until it starts. But you know, there are a lot of questions now of just kind of like how far into the city are they even gonna go? You know, it's obviously, you know, what we've seen out in Los Angeles with these like larger like workplace raids, like car washes and Home Depot and stuff. It's really difficult to imagine them executing something like that in the city. I'm not gonna say they couldn't try, but they would obviously need a lot of backup from Border Patrol.

Mia Wong (101:30)

Yeah.

Raven (101:31)

To try something like that. Even, even in the suburbs, which is what we saw in L. A. You know, that's who showed up those first few days when they were like tear gassing the fog out of everybody and it was just like crazy, you know, that was Border patrol.

Mia Wong (101:42)

Yeah.

Raven (101:43)

So what, what our eyes are on is something like that. And to your point about the, the National Guard and the press, you know, it's part of the issue is like the politicians, the elected, like they can't say no to the Fed, they can't say no to ice. Like ICE is coming, DHS is coming. No matter what they do, the Guard is a little more of like a political football for them. And Pritzker can push back and there's like, you know, the arguments about sending one state's troops into another and so there's more legal option, you know, all this stuff.

Simone Boyce (102:14)

Right.

Raven (102:15)

But the FBI already has a field office here. ICE already has field offices here. You know, like there's, there's just, I think also just a disconnect there because of like the way the news reporting works is like, well, we're reporting on what the public officials are saying. Governor Pritzker did say pretty clearly actually, like, well, DHS is, is coming. You know, ICE is going to do these operations and we don't approve it, but we can't stop it.

Mia Wong (102:42)

Yeah. And I think before we get more into that, I want to pivot to talk about what the presence of ICE has been in Chicago already. And I want to kind of like roll the clock back to right before kind of like, I think like the, literally the weekend before the big confrontations in LA started, there was a pretty big raid at a check in and a bunch of stuff happened with that. I was wondering if you could talk about that a bit.

Raven (103:09)

It was around the time when Things popped off in la. I don't remember precisely, but around then.

Mia Wong (103:15)

Yeah, Yeah, I think it was like, right before. Yeah.

Raven (103:17)

You know, they have these stuck in sites where people have to go, and some of them are on, like, electronic monitoring and some not, and they check in with ice. And so it was like an ambush. Right. Like, people showed up and then they were like, oh, we're actually like, kidnapping you.

Mia Wong (103:32)

Yeah.

Raven (103:32)

And it was very, very ugly, of course. You know, like agents ripping people away from their families and friends. And we had some local electeds, like, trying to get in the way of the van. And Chicago police, of course, showed up and. And then there was this whole back and forth over whether the police really assisted ICE or not. And I mean, they were there and they did crowd control.

Mia Wong (103:56)

Yeah, they definitely did.

Raven (104:00)

Like, you know, it's. It's very interesting what's happening with CPD and ICE right now because, like, at the end of the day, cops are lazy above all else, too. Right. You know, and so there's this kind of tension of like, well, we support what ICE is doing and ideologically, like, of course the cops are aligned with ice, but they also, like, don't want to get out of their car, you know, so. So it's kind of any. Any excuse they have not to do something they will take. So it's not that we've seen them assisting with, like, enforcement removal operations, but of course, if there's a protest, they're going to show up and police that. And then also, like, data sharing is a huge issue there. I mean, like, with fusion centers and with like, block license plate data, visas, you. Everything. There's just, just the information is.

Mia Wong (104:45)

Yeah.

Raven (104:46)

Is so porous between local cops and the feds that it's just kind of absurd on his face to even think that they're, like, not sharing information. Some of these cops are on task forces and they have like, group chats together, you know, with DA and FBI agents. Right. So it's all. It's all connected. It's all porous. They're already working with the feds, you know, it's just they can't visibly be seen assisting with.

Mia Wong (105:10)

Yeah.

Raven (105:11)

Immigration enforcement. But yeah, that was. That was a really traumatizing day for community. Like an organizer here who was well known, was taken, and she was a grandmother, so she had family here too, you know, so it was brutal. And then around that time that that was happening also, I started escalating arrests at the immigration court downtown.

Mia Wong (105:33)

Yeah.

Raven (105:34)

Which went on for a while and ultimately was stopped by Protesters continuing to show up and just have a presence there. You know, these guys are terrified of being doxed. Terrified. I mean, they just. They really don't want to be filmed. And it's been a very different situation here in our courthouse versus New York's because I've seen so much photography out of the New York Immigration court. For whatever reason, they allow photos there, but they don't inside of ours. But, you know, protesters started showing up there. I mean, we had been there documenting what was going on. Slowly, people started trickling in, showing up and protesting. And eventually people started then taking it to, like, actually blocking the driveway that they were using a private parking garage belonging to the building. And so they were, like, going underground and then, like, waiting and then using the freight elevator. It was like a full operation. Yeah. But ultimately the building put their foot down and banned them. You know, they got a lot of complaints from tenants. People didn't like that the protests were going on. Sure. But people also were like. Like in the building, people were like, we want ICE using our cradle.

Mia Wong (106:39)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You use the power of nidhism against them. Deploy every weapon.

Raven (106:46)

Exactly, exactly, exactly. It was. It's kind of like, you know, diversity of tactics thing there where it's like, the people who own property in this building aren't, like, super aligned with the, like, people trying to block ICE fans. But. But at that moment, they joined for forces.

Mia Wong (107:02)

Yeah.

Raven (107:03)

And, you know, so. So that. That was happening. And, like, while all of this is happening, of course ICE is still doing more dispersed.

Mia Wong (107:11)

Yeah.

Raven (107:11)

Traffic stops, arresting people at their homes. It's. It's been happening. It's happening all over. Out in Elgin, out in Waukegan, which is up by the base of operations, you know, where they're setting up all of these operations for what's coming this week. Waukegan, North Chicago, and that area of Lake County. There are a ton of immigrants. And they're not surrounded by necessarily, like, super progressive, super friendly people. Some can be. I mean, the politics of the North Shore, it's very, like, purple. Like, it's weird. It's like, you can have super progressive people, but then also, like, it can be out in the boonies somewhere. You'll see, like, Trump signs. So it's. It's not as sympathetic as being in downtown Chicago, for sure.

Mia Wong (107:53)

Yeah.

Raven (107:54)

And so there's a lot of concern from. From people up around the base about what's going to happen in those communities, because there's much less coverage to. Much less eyes on them.

Mia Wong (108:04)

Yep. I want to Talk more about sort of what enforcement has been looking like in outlying areas and what it's going to look like. But first we need to go to ads. And we are back. So I want to, I kind of, I want to follow the train that you've been on about the stuff in the center of the city versus the stuff in the outlying areas and across Chicagoland in general, which is also just massive, unbelievably large geographic area. It has unbelievably large numbers of people. And also the concentrations get way smaller really quickly. And I think, I don't know, it seems like the resistance inside of the city proper had been pretty effective in a lot of ways, just in the sense of shutting down the courthouse raids for the most part. But what if things looked like up near Waukegan and in the sort of outlying areas in terms of resistance and in terms of cooperation?

Raven (109:17)

Yeah, I mean, I've seen videos out of those places. You know, really harrowing scenes like traffic stops where they're separating.

Mia Wong (109:25)

Yeah.

Raven (109:25)

People from their families showing up at people's homes. Usually what, what's happening is we're not hearing about it until after the fact. And in the city there are like rapid response groups going by different neighborhoods. But I think in general, sometimes it just doesn't feel very rapid because it's. People are, are vetting, they're verifying, there's a lot of false alarms. You know, there's a lot going on. So that's what I've seen that's happened out, out in the burbs. You know, it's kind of like I said, kind of a black hole for news out there too. It's not always easy to get information. You know, we, we also had a case of like an ICE agent detaining a woman with her child at like a. Well, it wasn't an agent, it was a contractor contractor working for ice, detaining an arrestee out at an hotel by o' Hare Airport. That's something that, that people are concerned about in a more general sense too right now because we actually, literally just this morning we're looking at a letter from the mayor of Broadview, Illinois, which is where our processing center is outlining how they're going to be operational seven days a week for the next 45 days, which to me implies like thousands of arrests potentially happening. And that facility is not set up. It's not a long term detention center.

Mia Wong (110:50)

Yeah, yeah.

Raven (110:50)

Overnight detention is banned in Illinois, so people have been kept there longer than they technically are allowed to, even with like, without some huge surge happening. So it kind of thinking about what's potentially coming and them using that center, it kind of follows that. Yeah, there could be more contractors keeping people in hotels, like, dispersed around. Like, there's just not enough space at that facility to keep up with that. And so because there are also backups in the, like, ICE logistics chain because, like, people have to be, they can't be kept here long term, so they have to go to Gary Airport to fly out somewhere or detention center in Indiana or Wisconsin or Michigan.

Mia Wong (111:32)

So I guess there's a couple of things, kinds of sort of resistance stuff I want to ask about. I remember, like, God, back in, like, 2018, I remember there was a bunch of efforts to, like, block deportation flights out of the airport. Has that been still going?

Raven (111:44)

No, I mean, there, there was a protest at Gary Airport very early on in, in the year, actually. It was like, right after Trump was inaugurated. I think I know a photographer who was arrested, some protesters. It was, it was really random. It was like, towards the end of the protest, Gary police just decided to, like, grab and arrest a few people. And since then, I have not heard of any more protests or attempt, or attempts at intervention at Gary Airport. I mean, obviously it's not Chicago, it's in Gary. So, you know, this is smaller community there. People would have to travel. Ultimate. I don't know if deportation, if any deportation flights are leaving from o'. Hare. I don't believe so, but don't quote me on that. I'm not sure.

Mia Wong (112:31)

Yeah, it's also like, I feel like o' Hare is kind of a soft target for that in the sense of, like, I mean, it's annoying to get there, but, like, there is just a rail line that runs directly into o', Hare, and you can flood it with a bunch of people pretty easily. Like, what happened at, like, the beginning of Trump 1.

Raven (112:48)

Right. We haven't seen anything like that.

Mia Wong (112:50)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's also like, I, I, I, I wonder if they're still thinking about that in terms of, like, the flight logistics, in terms of, like, running stuff primarily through Gary.

Raven (113:01)

Oh, I see. Yeah. That might be why.

Mia Wong (113:04)

Yeah, I, the other thing I'm wondering about is, like, okay, so I, I guess it looks like right now with the information we have, that they're planning to run their operations out of that military base base. But everything that I've seen has been talking about, like, the National Guard operating out of that base. But do we know where the feds are supposed to be operating out of.

Raven (113:25)

The Feds are operating out of the base. The National Guard will potentially operate out of the base if they come. But we don't have a lot of details on like a National Guard deployment. And the other thing to keep in mind is like the National Guard are all younger people. Typically is a lot of young people and they have like families and things. So that kind of information, like a deployment. Right. Of like platoon or several platoons, whatever the word is, of National Guard, it's not going to stay secret for very long. Right. Like, because we would know. So I have not seen anything yet as of 12:30 noon on Wednesday indicating that, that the National Guard specifically has rolled in to that base. That could change at any point. You know, I don't know what's happened in the last hour that haven't checked the news, but what we do know is that the DHS operation, Customs and Border Protection, the feds that are coming, they are setting up a base of operations at that naval station. And the Navy said that they denied them lodging and that they have to stay elsewhere, like hotel wise. I don't know how that will work because that's like, like several hundred people.

Mia Wong (114:35)

Yeah.

Raven (114:36)

I guess they're gonna have to disperse a lot around the suburbs in order to do that. And I don't know the reason for the denial for the lodging. It could simply be they literally don't have space. You know, people are actually like training there, like military and Navy and stuff.

Mia Wong (114:48)

Yeah, yeah.

Raven (114:49)

It's not like it's just empty, so they might not have had capacity for that, but supposedly they're gonna be doing office space there. I think the letter also mentioned they can do laundry there, you know, like, stuff like that. Yeah, but, but yeah, I mean that's, that's like something that of course people have eyes on because if you can locate a hotel where people are staying, you know, they're. That's like a pressure point.

Mia Wong (115:16)

Yeah. And I think, I think that's an interesting point that, that comes back to something you were saying earlier, which is like, it really looks like this is, a lot of this is going to be targeted on the places close to the base just because, like, if they're really like two hours out from the city, it's like pretty difficult to do raids further right into the city just on a logistical level and just like.

Raven (115:42)

Right.

Mia Wong (115:42)

I don't know. Just, just in terms of like dealing with Chicago traffic.

Raven (115:46)

Right. I don't want to exclude it as a possibility.

Mia Wong (115:52)

Yeah, it's definitely possible, but it's like.

Raven (115:53)

I just Think when we look at inner city or urban policing, there are certain tactics that, like, local police use that we see the feds also using. Right. Like these unmarked cars, more covert operations, trying to move really quickly and get in and out because they know that it's such a denser area, and if rapid response shows up, people start showing up, then can get unsafe, you know, for them as cops. And so we just. We do know that those tactics work. We know that this is how they've been doing operations so far with more DHS agents and more Customs and Border Protection backup. Could they try for something bigger in the city? I mean, yes. Like, we don't want to rule that out. Trust me. Like, it definitely could happen. But I think given the numbers that they are trying to reach at this point, what we have to prepare for is it being really dispersed and just kind of everywhere, you know, like. And like, that traffic like you mentioned, you know, it's. Yeah, it's like, obviously if they're driving like, three in the morning or something, they're not gonna face as much traffic up 1994. But, like. Yeah, there's also the, like, covertness of it too. Like, you can't just drive a bunch of military vehicles down the highway for an hour and a half and not be sighted or spotted. Right. Like, so then you'd be giving, like, you're giving people more opportunities to potentially intervene. So I don't know. I mean, I think, like, we'll see them in the city for sure. We'll see them in the burbs for sure. Whether or not we're going to see, like, teams of, like, border Patrol, you know, in like, full riot kit marching through, like, Pilsen, that. I don't know, I think it's something that probably they want to do. I'm sure those dudes would be amped as fuck to, like, you know, be in downtown Chicago, like, harassing people, you know, beating on people. But from an operational security standpoint, like, for them, it is, like, so dangerous.

Mia Wong (117:55)

Yeah.

Raven (117:56)

So I just. I don't know.

Mia Wong (117:58)

So. So speaking speaking of dangerous, we're going to go to these ads and then we're going to come back and talk about. Oh, God, is rumors the right word to describe something that the governor is saying about the targeting of the Mexican Independence Day Parade?

Raven (118:15)

But maybe not rumor, maybe maybe just statement.

Mia Wong (118:21)

Yeah, we'll figure out the verbiage when we return.

Raven (118:25)

Yeah.

Mia Wong (118:36)

We are back. So one of the things that Governor Pritzker has said is that Stephen Miller, I'm going To read this quote. This is in NBC. I'm going to read this quote. Just that Pritzker said at a conference, we have reason to believe that Stephen Miller chose the month of September to come to Chicago because of celebrations around Mexican Independence Day that happened here every year. And yeah, you know, he further said, it breaks my heart to report that we have been told ICE will try and disrupt up community picnics and peaceful parades. He said, let's be clear. The terror and cruelty is the point, not the safety of anyone living here. So, yeah, I guess I want to start by talking a little bit about these parades themselves because they are a absolutely massive event in Chicago. There's like a big one in Pilsen, but also like, I just. All over the city, there's just a bunch of people driving around with Mexican flags. Rocks. This is just people celebrating. It's really cool.

Raven (119:30)

Yeah, it turns into more of like a, like a widespread, like car caravan thing.

Mia Wong (119:35)

Yep.

Garrison Davis (119:36)

There'll be like a lot.

Raven (119:37)

Yeah. Like, they'll jam, you know, and like, here's the thing. I know traffic jams are annoying to like, anybody, but when it's in celebration of something, you know.

Mia Wong (119:49)

Yeah.

Raven (119:49)

Rocks. It rocks.

Mia Wong (119:51)

Take the train that day. It's great.

Raven (119:53)

I mean, I understand the arguments for like, well, ambulances need to get through things like that, but I think there's a lot of. In people taking the streets and like, you know, the cars are just the easiest way to get mass amounts of people around. And then there's a lot of like, there's a street culture here around, like street takeovers too. And this happens outside of like Mexican Independence Day where like, some. Some people will take over an intersection and do donuts and set off fireworks and like.

Mia Wong (120:25)

Yeah.

Raven (120:25)

Yell at the cops and whatever. Right.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (120:28)

It's fun.

Mia Wong (120:28)

It's cool. It's. It's good as hell, we like it.

Raven (120:31)

Thing that happens in cities. And I think when it comes to living in a city, it's like, yeah, you. You're trading certain things for other things and, And. And stuff like that happens. And so with Mexican Independence Day, it's like we, We. We can have like sustained nights where that is just going on and on. Like, the loop will be jammed up. Like everywhere will be jammed up. And of course there's like the public safety people who like, whine about it and. And you know.

Mia Wong (120:57)

Yeah, this is also like a big like, like, like white people of the city get really pissed about this like every year versus, like, look at the Mexicans and like, like the most racist you've ever heard in your entire life. And then there's people sort of below that who will couch it and like, oh, public safety.

Raven (121:18)

Right.

Mia Wong (121:18)

And I. I'm gonna be really mean to these people, which is like, if you're. If you're pissed off at a bunch of people like, like, basically doing their own parade, you are not fit to live in a city. Like, get the out of here. Like, off. Go back to the suburbs, you dipshits. You're losers. You're not fit for urban life. Like, eat my dick. The shit rules.

Raven (121:42)

Yeah, I mean, it's. Yeah, the reaction to it is like, so. So over the top. And it's the kind of thing where, like when. When Trump is like, talking about the National Guard and responding to crime in Chicago or disorder, you know, that's the kind of thing I could see him like, ordering them into. Respond to, you know, especially if there's like, there's like a shooting or something that happens towards the tail end of one of these celebrations, which, again, you know, it's like, that's a risk. Anytime large amounts of people gather anywhere. Interpersonal violence, freaking out. Right. Like, again, is a thing that happens. And the direct cause of it is never, like, people partying. The direct cause of it is usually like, somebody's got a beef with somebody or somebody drank too much and lost impulse control, you know, whatever the reason might be.

Mia Wong (122:30)

Yeah, so.

Raven (122:32)

So I think that is, like. I think that's what Pritzker is alluding to is kind of like the car caravan and stuff when he says, like, Stephen Miller is bringing ice to interrupt family picnics. Like, I don't. I don't know where he's getting that information. Like. Like, I. I don't know that that is, like.

Mia Wong (122:46)

Yeah.

Raven (122:47)

Specifically going to happen. You know, I think given what we've seen out in la, unless I've missed anything, it doesn't seem like they've attacked any, like, festivals or like, like public gatherings like that, like, in a direct way. You know, I think, like, logistically it's just maybe not as easy to necessarily, like, grab people with questionable immigration status at that kind of stuff. And if you go to, like, a place where, you know, like, like the car wash or wherever they have intel that it's like undocumented people are working here, it makes more sense. So. So I don't want to rule out that something like that could happen, but I think, yeah, I think there's a. Whether it happens or not, it's like part of it is also the intention is to be. Have this chilling effect, like, to make people afraid to celebrate or come out to cause that terror. You know, it's kind of like we. We had a situation a couple months ago where some feds who claim they were with, like, a financial crimes task force. It wasn't even ice, but I don't know what they were doing. And they were meeting up in a. At a boathouse parking lot in Humboldt park, like, a week before all these cultural celebrations in the area. And people got really freaked out because it was just like, what the fuck are you guys doing? And they, like, went into the museum and were, like, questioning workers and asking you the bathroom. And, I mean, just. Just being. It sounds like. And then they left. And then there were, like, all these questions swirling about, like, well, what was this? Like, were they seeking intel before these fasts? And, you know, people made sure to, like, we wanted. We wanted to still have these fasts, but we want people to show up in even bigger numbers. Like, power in numbers. Everybody show up, and that's what happened. And, you know, they didn't attack the fest. And, you know, that was a really weird situation because it wasn't ice and we didn't know what was going on. But I think ultimately, like, yeah, giving in and, like, staying home and refusing to show up obviously just plays right into their hands.

Mia Wong (124:45)

And I wanted to kind of pivot a little bit from this into the way that Pritzker has sort of been framing this, where he's talking about how if anyone throws a sandwich at the Guard, this is going to be used as, like, the excuse to do a crackdown. And, like, I think they're going to do the crackdown anyways. Like, I. I don't think that's like.

Raven (125:06)

I mean, this is the central kind of point of conflict, I think, in, like, a lot of movement space discussions right now, too, especially among kind of, like, older liberals and, like, the younger generation. And part of it is. Is, like, yeah, there's this insistence that, well, he's looking for a reason to send in the National Guard, so don't give him. But it's like Border Patrol is the reason.

Mia Wong (125:30)

Yeah.

Raven (125:31)

You know, like, they're going to show up, and I don't know how it's going to go down, if it's going to be in Waukegan, if it's going to be in Chicago, whatever is going to happen. But if somebody throws a water bottle at those DHS agents, that's enough of a reason, you know, for them to say there's. There's unrest. Like, and who. Who triggered that? The cops?

Mia Wong (125:49)

Yeah. And like, it's cpd. Like, I have. I have watched CPD do this shit to people where nothing happened.

Raven (125:57)

Right.

Mia Wong (125:58)

Like, it was just people standing there and you know.

Raven (126:01)

Right. Our attorney general said the same thing in a statement last night. Like, make sure you protest peacefully within the law. The Cook county board president, Tony Procwinkle, said the same thingle.

Garrison Davis (126:15)

Still around.

Raven (126:16)

No, I mean, all the, like, like, you know, Illinois Democratic. God, big dog people, like, they're all.

Mia Wong (126:23)

Yeah. All the machine saying the same thing.

Raven (126:26)

I mean, like, honestly, Mayor Johnson kind of was a little more fiery in his rhetoric, but he's still only gonna go so far, you know, like, they're politicians. They can't. They're not gonna come out and say, like, oh, let's physically resist ice. I think we all wish.

Mia Wong (126:41)

Yeah.

Raven (126:42)

But it is like, Dane, it is a very dangerous way to. To. To frame resistance, like, to say, yeah, well, don't provoke him. You know, it's kind of like living with an abuser or a bully and then blaming somebody for fighting back.

Mia Wong (126:57)

Yeah. And I think there's also. There's really. It creates really dangerous dynamics on the ground. I mean, like, I still remember, like, one of the things I'm sort of haunted by from this during 2020 was in. In Atlanta where someone, like the person who burned the Wendy's down.

Raven (127:12)

Yeah.

Mia Wong (127:12)

There was like a whole. There was like a whole thing where people were like, this is a federal infiltrator, and they turned over to the feds, which doesn't make any sense, by the way. Like, if your logic is this person is a fed and we turn them over to the feds. Nonsensical. But like, this. This is the thing you see a lot in these kinds of protests where like, people will just like, hand people over to the feds. And then it turned out that. That she was the girlfriend of. Of a guy the police had shot.

Raven (127:35)

Yeah.

Mia Wong (127:36)

And that shit just like happens.

Raven (127:39)

Yeah.

Mia Wong (127:39)

And I don't know. And like, that's like. That's like the consequence of this. Of this kind of stuff is like, these people, the peace police people feel like they are empowered to hand people over to the actual police. And I just want to sort of like, take a second to talk to, like, directly to people who are listening to this, who agree with this stuff, which is okay if you are facing a fascist regime. Right. Regardless of whether you agree with what someone is doing or not, do you think it's a good idea to hand them over to the legal executors of that regime. Like, would you, would you hand someone over to the SS because they resisted the SS to know what you didn't approve of? No. What are we doing here? Right. I don't know. I think this ties back to something from. We were talking about the beginning of the week of like the extent to which people have become convinced that like the ICE agents are all like proud boys or something because they can't imagine the institutions that they had supported for so long.

Raven (128:36)

Right.

Mia Wong (128:37)

Suddenly being fascist. And it's like. No, actually like these organizations have always bent this way and they're, they're organs of the state, which means they're going to be subverted to enforcing the regime of fascism.

Raven (128:50)

Right. And, and you know, I think, I think a lot of people who kind of, and I'm not talking about the politicians, but like regular people who kind of share in this sentiment of like, like they're scared, they don't want to provoke or like make things worse. You know, I think their, their hearts are in the right place. Like they're coming from a place of like, well, we just don't want people to get arrested. We want people to be safe. Like, I think by and large that's the motivation. But yeah, it's just kind of like a very shallow understanding of like how resistance actually looks and works.

Mia Wong (129:21)

Yeah.

Raven (129:22)

In real life there's also just like a, a worry for a lot of people that like, well, that kind of stuff might endanger others who want to show up with kids or families. And I think there just needs to be like a separation in space. Obviously not every protest or every resistance is for everyone. But, but, but at the end of the day, like some of these discussions kind of just fall to the wayside once things get to a certain point. Because like. Yeah, yeah, if border patrol rolls through your town, you're, you're not gonna be able to control how everyone responds to that.

Mia Wong (129:56)

Yeah.

Raven (129:57)

Like that, that's a point at which you can see a more spontaneous.

Mia Wong (130:02)

Yep.

Raven (130:03)

Response. And, and so like this sort of like top down movement organizer level, like control of like the protest and how it's gonna go kind of falls apart anyway because by that point, like no one's in control of any.

Mia Wong (130:17)

Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a bunch, it's a bunch of people running out of their houses being like fucking the fucking like the immigration authorities. Right, right. You know, and I don't know. That's the thing that gives me hope in this situation is that, like, I'm going to retreat to the metaphysical level for a second where, like, one of the things I don't know, almost spiritually that I believe in is cities. That cities are more than sort of the sum of their parts. Yeah. And obviously, like, they're. They're broken down into all of these things. And, you know, but like. Like there's something there. Right. And Chicago is something that I believe in, and I believe in the people there, and I believe in their capacity to resist this and to drive these people out, because they can be driven out. And with enough organization and enough spontaneity and enough cost imposed on their logistical operations, they can be ran out. Of a city. Yeah. I think the power of a city, it's not something that's clear until it's manifested. And you never know when it's going to manifest, but when it does, if you look at the entire federal deployment, even if they bring in the National Guard, like, we're talking about less than 3,000 people.

Raven (131:34)

Right.

Mia Wong (131:35)

There are millions of people in this city.

Raven (131:38)

Right.

Mia Wong (131:38)

This is a fucking flea in an ocean, and a flea is relying on the waves staying calm so it doesn't get drowned. And this is the thing that can happen. These people can be ran out of cities. They can be chased out, their operations can be made impossible, they can be rendered impotent, and they can be made to retreat. And, you know, this is something I'll say is like, the experience of watching these people break and run, because they will break and run. They can and they will, and you can do it, is the most amazing feeling in the entire world, because however powerful they look, they are beatable and they know it. And that's why they operate with this sort of these fear shock tactics, because they know that if you're not afraid of them, they can be defeated.

Raven (132:29)

There have always been more of us than there are of them.

Mia Wong (132:32)

Yeah.

Raven (132:34)

That's always been true. And they do rule by fear. And Chicago will fight back. And there's so much knowledge and history here of our urban black and brown communities resisting the police even to this day. I see on TikTok every night videos of crowds hassling the cops or pushing them out of their hood. I mean, like, this is. It's amazing happening right now. There are communities who do this work right now. The challenge of, of course, remains building solidarity across the borders of the neighborhoods.

Mia Wong (133:09)

Yeah. But I don't think this is an insurmountable thing.

Raven (133:12)

No.

Mia Wong (133:12)

I have never been in a place where people fly the flag of their fucking city, Chicago. Like, it's unreal.

Raven (133:22)

We're basically a small nation state at this point, so this is going to get really weird really fast.

Mia Wong (133:28)

Yeah. And it's like, I don't know, like, the US's record of military occupations is not good, and we can hand them another L. Yeah. So, Raven, is there anything else that you want to say? And also, where can people find your work?

Raven (133:46)

Nothing else to say. Our. Our work is. We've mostly been posting on Blue sky, honestly, which I always, like, kind of cringe, but we just. We do a lot of live reporting. It's the only functional way to do it.

Mia Wong (133:58)

Yeah, it's. It's really good. By the way, this is like. Yeah, it's. It's a kind of coverage that I think is becoming more and more important as things go on. And it's really the only way right now to get good on the ground coverage of people, of how these actions are actually unfolding. And it rocks. We've been there together at events, at protests before, and I could personally vouch for the coverage being good and. Yeah. And it's also like. I mean, we have lots of people on this show, but, like, it really matters when the people who are covering a social movement are people who actually are in them and understand how they work and, like, have been in these places. And so, yeah, I think it's really, really important work, and I think people should go support y' all because it's. It's great, and it's going to be more and more necessary as the occupation unfolds.

Raven (134:54)

As the occupation unfolds.

Mia Wong (134:58)

What a. What a bleak. What a. What a terrible world.

Raven (135:03)

But another world is possible. That's the most important.

Mia Wong (135:06)

Yeah. Yep.

Raven (135:08)

To remember.

Mia Wong (135:10)

Yeah. And the only way to do it is by building it, and you can do that right now.

Raven (135:15)

I also do think a lot about, too, how, like, the first. Well, not the first police uprising, but, like, kind of the. The opening of this, like, era of what's going on was the George Floyd uprising, which did happen in Great Lakes in the Midwest. In Minneapolis.

Mia Wong (135:32)

Yeah.

Raven (135:32)

Like. Yeah, I think there is. There's something about this region specifically. We're generally not, like, the first to pop off just because we don't have as many people as New York or Los Angeles. But there's such a rich history of, like, resistance. Resistance to the police here. I mean, you had Ferguson and Missouri, which is like, kind of Midwest, kind of South. But, like, these communities have such a strong history of knowing what it's like to live as like sundown towns too. And some of them still are with these like majority white police departments. So it's, it'll be something to watch how things unfold here specifically.

Mia Wong (136:10)

Yeah. And the uprising in Chicago was like one of the most intense anywhere in the country. Like, like they ran the cops out of the center of the city. Like they, they lost control for days of like the giant shopping district in the middle of the city. That is like the thing that like the Chicago business glitzy self image is like based off of. They just lost it fully because people ran them out and you know, we did it to them once, we could do it again.

Raven (136:41)

Yeah. Well, and I think public opinion against ICE is much worse than like cpd. I mean like, not that public opinion against CPD is great, but obviously things with ICE are reaching like a fever pitch right now.

Mia Wong (136:54)

Yeah. People hate them.

Raven (136:55)

Yeah. So you know, you're not. I don't know if there's ever been an occupying army that people didn't hate. But like, it's just not gonna go well for you when the locals hate you. Like it's just not not gonna go well.

Mia Wong (137:08)

Yeah. And I think, you know, the history as this before was, the history of American occupations is littered with defeats. Hand them another 1am.

Annabe Ad Voice (137:33)

Time for a sofa upgrade. Visit washablesofas.com and discover Annabe. Where designer style meets budget friendly prices. With sofas starting at $699, Annabe brings you the ultimate in furniture innovation with a modular design that allows you to rearrange your space effortlessly. Perfect for both small and large spaces, Annabe is the only machine washable sofa inside and out. Say goodbye to stains and messes with with liquid and stain resistant fabrics that make cleaning easy. Liquid simply slides right off. Designed for custom comfort, our high resilience foam lets you choose between a sink in feel or a supportive memory foam blend. Plus our pet friendly stain resistant fabrics ensure your sofa stays beautiful for years. Don't compromise quality for price. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your living space today with no risk returns and a 30 day money back guarantee. Guarantee. Get up to 60 off plus free shipping and free returns. Shop now@washablesofas.com Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

Honey German (138:34)

Hola, it's honey German and my podcast Gracias Come Again is back. This season we're going even deeper into the world of music and entertainment with raw and honest conversations with some of your favorite Latin artists and celebrities.

Garrison Davis (138:46)

You didn't have to audition No, I didn't audition. I haven't auditioned like over 25 years.

Honey German (138:50)

Oh, wow. That's a real G talk right there.

Mia Wong (138:53)

Oh, yeah.

Honey German (138:54)

We've got some of the biggest actors, musicians, content creators and culture shifters sharing their real stories of failure and success. You were destined to be a star. We talk all about what's viral and trending with a little bit of Cheeseman, a lot of laughs, and those amazing vivas you've come to expect. And of course, course, we'll explore deeper topics dealing with identity struggles and all the issues affecting our Latin community. You feel like you get a little whitewashed because you have to do the code switching.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (139:24)

I won't say whitewashed because at the end of the day, you know, I'm me.

Raven (139:27)

Yeah.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (139:27)

But the whole pretending and co, you know, it takes a toll on you.

Honey German (139:31)

Listen to the new season of Gracias. Come again as part of Michael Tura Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

Mark Lombardo Narrator (139:40)

What would you do if one bad decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison or the most brutal boot camp designed to be hell on earth? Unfortunately for Mark Lombardo, this was the choice he faced.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (139:53)

He said, you are a number, a.

Garrison Davis (139:56)

New York state number, and we own you.

Mark Lombardo Narrator (139:58)

Shock incarceration, also known as boot camps, are short term, highly regimented correctional programs that mimic military basic training. These programs aim to provide a shock of prisoners in life, emphasizing strict discipline, physical training, hard labor and rehabilitation programs. Mark had one chance to complete this program and had no idea of the hell awaiting him the next six months.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (140:25)

The first night was overwhelming and you don't know who's next to you and we didn't know what to expect in the morning. Nobody tells you anything.

Mark Lombardo Narrator (140:32)

Listen to shock incarceration on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Simone Boyce (140:41)

Hi, it's Gemma Spag, host of the psychology of your 20s. Remember when you used to have science week at school? Well, if you loved that, how would you feel about a full psychology month this September? At the psychology of your 20s, we're breaking down the interesting ways psychology applies to real life. Like how our pets actually change our brain chemistry, the psychology of office politics, whether happiness is even a real emotion. And my favorite episode, why do we all secretly crave external validation? It's so interesting to me that we are so quick to believe others judgments of us and not our own. I found a study that said not being liked actually creates similar levels of pain as physical pain. Like, no wonder we care so much.

Mia Wong (141:28)

So much.

Simone Boyce (141:28)

So the secret is, if you want to be okay with not being liked, you have to know why your brain craves it in the first place. Learn more about the psychology of external validation, everyday life, and of course, your 20s this September. Listen to the psychology of your 20s on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Garrison Davis (141:54)

No inappropriate joke. Robert, to start this episode. Wow, I feel so clean.

Robert Evans (141:58)

You know, I guess. I guess you could say I have some executive dysfunction.

Garrison Davis (142:03)

Today, this is it could happen here. Executive Disorder. Our weekly newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world, what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis. Today I'm joined by Mia Wong, Robert Evans, and possibly Sophie Lichterman, our producer. This episode we are covering the week of August 28th to September 3rd. Happy Faith Labor Day to everybody. And some breaking news from this past weekend. Trump maybe died. Yeah, let's check in on that.

Robert Evans (142:33)

Garrison, as our official. Is the President alive correspondent, let me.

Garrison Davis (142:38)

Do a quick Google search here. Oh, no, no, he's still. He's still around.

Robert Evans (142:42)

Did everyone get tricked again?

Garrison Davis (142:44)

He's still okay.

Raven (142:45)

The conspiracy theories this week were really fun. And then there was that thing, that video that went viral of, like, them, like, opening a White House window and throwing out a couple black trash bags.

Robert Evans (142:54)

That was funny. That was really funny.

Raven (142:57)

I was like, there's way worse things going on in the world. I don't have time to care about this. But we never got information about that. That was just some weird shit.

Garrison Davis (143:04)

Not yet. Not yet, Sophie.

Raven (143:05)

Sensational.

Robert Evans (143:06)

I don't think we know what it was. I mean, it could just be that's them fucking cleaning shit. But I wouldn't be surprised if they were destroying evidence.

Raven (143:14)

I wasn't aware those windows could open. I thought they were, like, bulletproof and.

Garrison Davis (143:19)

Weren'T supposed to open.

Robert Evans (143:20)

I'm sure they're both bulletproof, but have to be possible to open so that the Secret Service has more paths of egress in the event some crazy disaster were to befall the White House. Okay, well, you need to watch the documentary White House Down. Sophie, this spells all of that out.

Garrison Davis (143:34)

So Trump went a few days without a major public appearance.

Robert Evans (143:39)

The man is just trying to take some time off.

Garrison Davis (143:44)

Though. He was seen golfing between Saturday and Monday, but there's nothing on Trump's public schedule for three days during Labor Day weekend, where he essentially took a brief golfing holiday. And this fueled speculation that he was in a rapid health decline. Spawning a whole bunch of conspiracy theories about him being in the hospital. Vance imminently taking over. And some comments from J.D. vance during a USA Today interview released last Thursday fueled some of this speculation. Over the weekend, Vance said, quote, I feel very confident the President of the United States is in good shape, is going to serve out the remainder of his term and do great things for the American people. And if, God forbid, there's a terrible tragedy, I can't think of better on the job training than what I've gotten over the last 200 days, unquote. It sounds like he's ready to take the reins right now.

Mia Wong (144:39)

Chairman.

Robert Evans (144:40)

Yeah, you're trained up now.

Garrison Davis (144:43)

Over the weekend, people spread AI altered images of Trump's face looking more swollen and sickly than it actually was.

Raven (144:50)

Was.

Garrison Davis (144:50)

And rumors circulated that roads to Walter Reed Medical center were closed.

Robert Evans (144:55)

Yeah.

Garrison Davis (144:56)

When in fact, there were no irregular closures. And screenshots of maps supposedly showing these quote, unquote closures were actually just showing old security gates because, yeah, you can't just, like, walk or drive up to the front door of Walter Reed Medical Center.

Robert Evans (145:11)

Yeah.

Garrison Davis (145:12)

It's in a military base.

Robert Evans (145:13)

This is the Osint of idiots. Right. Which is people seeing something that is described as being one thing in this, like, little clip that they get of it in social media and they don't actually do any further checkup. It's the same thing with, like, the. The Pentagon pizza totally orders that people are like, oh, when. When pizza orders peaked, the Pentagon we're about. The US Is about to go to war. And it's like, no, sometimes people just order pizza near the Pentagon because the Pentagon is surrounded by a city.

Garrison Davis (145:41)

Right.

Robert Evans (145:41)

There's like, there's people.

Garrison Davis (145:43)

The Pentagon Pizza Tracker was part of these weekend conspiracy theories that they were, like, trying to decide how to handle Trump's declining health. And yes, people just like pizza guys.

Robert Evans (145:52)

Like, it's one of those things I'm certainly not saying. There's no way you will wake up tomorrow to hear that Trump has died. Because you know what? He's 79. It would be weird if his health took a sudden turn in the next day. Just statistically. It wouldn't be weird because he's 79. But, like, the people pointing out, it's the same thing they were doing with Biden pointing out, like, oh, like the marks on his hand. And it's like, yeah, that isn't it for both of them. This is evidence that they are older than you should be to be president. But, like, my grandpa had shit like that because My grandpa lived with us for the last, like, 10 years of his life. His hands looked a lot like that for, like, a decade. Like, so people live for a long time after it becomes clear that they're very sick and old. It's not. It's not a sign that they're about to kick off this weekend.

Garrison Davis (146:34)

That guy in Congress who looks like a turtle has had weird bruises on his body for as long as I can remember. But no, like, accounts were baselessly theorizing that, like, Putin poisoned Trump during their last meeting. This is why he's in a rapid health decline.

Mia Wong (146:50)

Oh, my God.

Robert Evans (146:50)

Why? Why would he need to do that? Why would that benefit him?

Mia Wong (146:54)

So baffling.

Robert Evans (146:55)

Yeah.

Garrison Davis (146:56)

When people noticed, looking at the White House schedule, which they realized just existed a few days ago, but when looking on the schedule, they saw that quote, unquote, the President was to give an announcement on Tuesday afternoon. And because of this, rumors spread that it would be Trump resigning for health reasons, or Vance would come out and announce Trump died and he was the president now. Like some, like, really bad Aaron sort of movie.

Robert Evans (147:23)

That's how it works.

Mia Wong (147:24)

Also. I. I just. I just want to also put this out there.

Robert Evans (147:26)

Yeah.

Mia Wong (147:27)

That White House leaks like a fucking sieve. There is no way he. You could cover up the president dying without it being out immediately. Like, come on.

Robert Evans (147:39)

No, I'm sorry. Like, you. They. They couldn't keep it hidden when he got sick. You think they're gonna keep the fact that he.

Raven (147:45)

They're gonna.

Robert Evans (147:45)

Weakened at Bernie's head.

Mia Wong (147:47)

Ridiculous.

Robert Evans (147:48)

Yeah.

Garrison Davis (147:49)

When this press conference got delayed an hour on Tuesday, this, too was used as evidence of Trump's declining health. But sure enough, right before 3:00pm, Trump came out with a huge gaggle of people, which is probably why it was delayed, because he had, like, 20 guys with him who, like, multiple people spoke to announce that they were moving Space Command. And Trump seemed normal. He seemed like normal Trump. Like, he. He is an old guy. But no, this was just normal Trump.

Robert Evans (148:18)

Yeah. Does he seem older than he did in 2016? For sure, man.

Garrison Davis (148:23)

He's slightly more wrinkled, but, like, he's older.

Raven (148:26)

Exactly. Like he did before the. These conspiracy theories started.

Mia Wong (148:29)

Yeah.

Robert Evans (148:29)

I mean, he looks old. Like, he looks older than he did 10 years ago. Yeah. I'm just saying.

Mia Wong (148:33)

Oh, he's so much less coherent than then, but, like, yeah, he's not, like, yeah, dying.

Robert Evans (148:38)

I don't have any particular reason to expect he's about to drop dead, like, as opposed to, like, three months ago or six months ago, you know, yeah, like, does it appear as if time is continuing to march on his face? Yes, of course.

Raven (148:52)

You know, exactly.

Garrison Davis (148:54)

During said press conference, Trump himself was asked about his alleged imminent demise and responded like this really different.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (149:02)

But about a big viral social media.

Robert Evans (149:04)

Trend over the weekend. How did you find out over the weekend that you were dead? You see that?

Jack (Alt Watcher) (149:11)

No, people didn't see you for a couple days.

Robert Evans (149:13)

1.3 million user engagements as of Saturday morning about your demise.

Mia Wong (149:19)

Really? You know, I have heard it's sort of crazy, but last week I did.

Garrison Davis (149:24)

Numerous news conferences, all successful.

Mia Wong (149:26)

They went very well. Like, this is going very well. And then I didn't do any for two days. And they said there must be something wrong with him. Biden wouldn't do him for months. You wouldn't see him.

Garrison Davis (149:38)

And nobody ever said there was ever.

Mia Wong (149:39)

Anything wrong with him. And we know he wasn't in the greatest of shape. No, I heard that. I, I get reports now. You knew. I did an interview that lasted for about an hour and a half with somebody and everybody saw that was on one of your competitors. That's a remarkably coherent Trump by Trump standards. Like, no.

Garrison Davis (149:59)

And he's talking about how he was sending out very poignant truths over the weekend on Truth Social.

Mia Wong (150:05)

Okay, that's. That. That's for Current.

Garrison Davis (150:08)

Yeah, like, and yeah, he just took a nice little golfing. Golfing holiday. And like, it is true. He is the oldest elected president. And the White House recently announced he was diagnosed with chronic venous insufficiency a few months ago to explain his ankle swelling. And the bruises on his right hand have become more noticeable, which the White House has attributed to frequent handshaking and the use of aspirin.

Mia Wong (150:33)

That is really funny.

Robert Evans (150:35)

Yeah, he sh. He shook too many hands.

Garrison Davis (150:37)

He just can't stop shaking hands.

Raven (150:39)

That's actually hilarious.

Garrison Davis (150:42)

But the aspirin thing is, is real. And people of his age, frequent aspirin. Aspirin use can lead to hand bruising.

Robert Evans (150:47)

Yeah.

Garrison Davis (150:48)

But I just finished up my blue and on research in the night. This whole weekend, as I was like, literally finishing those episodes, this, this whole, this whole giant wave of these, like, Trump health conspiracies just, just completely took over. And I felt like I was, like, losing it. Like, everyone around me, everyone around me was indulging this and, like, usually from this place of, like, half joking, but not really joking. Like, when, yeah, when that line gets blurry between, are you indulging in this, like, ironically because it's fun, or does it. Is it actually kind of altering your brain like, is it actually slowly making you convinced of this stuff in, like, a small way?

Robert Evans (151:22)

This gets to what is at the root of all conspiracy culture, regardless of, like, the political ideology, which is the need, the emotional need to believe that you are the possessor of secret knowledge. Yeah, right. Like that. That. That is so much a part of this that, like, no, no, no. I'm. I am privy to secrets about the world that the average person is not. And the degree to which that's, like, comforting and also emotionally necessary for quite a few people. And that's part of the problem with humoring this, is that the instant you let it into your life, it starts taking more and more power because it becomes part of your ego. It becomes part of your coping mechanisms. It becomes, like. Yeah, some. But you. You become dependent upon it.

Mia Wong (152:04)

Yeah. And I think it's also worth noting, like, you know, people are confused all the time about how does the right come to believe all of these things? How does the right sort of, you know, like, how do. How does, like, vaccine conspiracing spread? How does, like, QAnon spread? It's like, it spreads like this. Right. This is what it looks like. And you're also not immune to it just because your politics are better. It's still really, really easy to fall down those pathways because they're addictive and fun, and so that's spreading so much unhinged shit.

Robert Evans (152:38)

Yeah. The root of a lot of madness comes with thinking that you're better than other people and you're not.

Garrison Davis (152:45)

Cognitively, I can play around with this stuff without it affecting me the way it affects other people.

Robert Evans (152:51)

Yeah. Or just because this is because the politics of this counterfactual belief system are better than their counterfactual belief system. This is not a counterfactual belief system.

Garrison Davis (153:02)

Totally. Yeah. And, like, we see this with. With the way some people talk about, like, Russia. And, like, I've. I've faced a little teeny bit of pushback on some of the ways that I was framing, like, Russiagate in In the Blue and on Episodes. And, like, there is a difference between a social media disinformation campaign to influence elections, which Russia does. Like, we. We know this.

Robert Evans (153:22)

Absolutely. That's not in question whatsoever.

Mia Wong (153:24)

Yeah.

Garrison Davis (153:25)

There's a difference between that and, like, straightforwardly stealing.

Robert Evans (153:28)

Yeah.

Garrison Davis (153:28)

An election in such a manner that the election result are themselves illegitimate. Right.

Robert Evans (153:33)

And this is the big question always, if you're saying, like, no, they literally did steal this election in the 2016 election, but they just, like, fucked up for 2020 they just couldn't get their shit together in time for that one. Or is it that they have influence campaigns like everyone else and they're influenced? That doesn't mean saying that they're not problems, but it doesn't mean pretending that's the only reason shit broke their way. You know, in part, a big reason why things worked the way that they have and have worked the way that they have is that the disinfo campaigns that, that Russia, that the Russian government was engaged in were complementary to campaigns of disinformation that have existed for decades on the U.S. right.

Mia Wong (154:12)

Yeah.

Garrison Davis (154:13)

Look at the way they were funding right wing content creators through tenant media. Right. And like, you know, same thing with Trump. Like publicly encouraging Russia is not the same thing as actual collusion. And there is no clear indication that the 2016 Russian influenced operations or even like their accessing of voter registration actually made a meaningful impact on the results of the election. And this is, this is the same thing with, you know, like the right's legal methods of voter disenfranchisement, voter suppression or changing mail in voting rules. Right. There's, there's that versus talking about like hacking voting machines. Right. The former doesn't mean that the election was quote, unquote stolen.

Robert Evans (154:51)

No.

Garrison Davis (154:51)

Just because they do voter suppression. Right. The results still need to be accepted. Like, that's not illegal election interference. It's not good. We should, we should oppose it. Yeah, but it's not illegal election interference. And like, this is kind of just like a, a coping method that passes the buck to avoid accepting that Republicans were better at winning these elections.

Robert Evans (155:11)

Yeah.

Garrison Davis (155:11)

It may be emotionally easier to like blame Russia than to actually like reflect on ourselves. And I've seen the same thing when people talking about how for the 2024 election, on election day, there were bomb threats to swing state polling places that were traced back to Russia. And like, while this is nominally true, this did not influence the result of that election. And then this can very quickly devolve into like just like baselessly like just asking questions. Right. Like you can't prove it negative. And it, this just turns into like a very cartoon version of understanding reality. Like with like people in ski masks risks fixing elections or changing votes, or like hackers compromising election like voting machines instead of just accepting that a lot of people voted for Trump and he won.

Robert Evans (155:54)

Well, and part of the other problem is that I think when you lose yourself in patterns of thinking like this, it also leads to a failure to accurately gauge the strengths and the capacities of the enemy. Like, if you're un. If you're unwilling to see where they've made smart decisions and where they've made good investments that have paid off for them, then you are unable to follow and properly counter those kind of things. And I think part of why this is so difficult is that so many people, so many liberals and people on the left, I don't think, I think both sides have differences in how they do it, but I don't think there's a massive difference in the degree to which either side does it. But you find on both ends of the political spectrum this emotional need to be like, these people are idiots. And the correlating factor with that is that, like, and I'm not, right? Like, like I'm smarter because I'm not one of these people. Because I'm not one of these, like, fools who buys into this right wing propaganda. And if you're, if you're more obsessed with that than you are with seeing where your enemy has made smart decisions, then you're going to continue getting dunked on by them endlessly.

Garrison Davis (157:01)

You're gonna get blindsided.

Robert Evans (157:02)

And that's where we are right now. People are getting dunked on repeatedly because they refuse to see the things that Trump does that are based in actual intelligence. And the things that the far right has done, the things the Republican Party has done, the architects, architects of this movement have done that have been successful. You know who else is successful, Genius?

Garrison Davis (157:20)

The products that support this podcast.

Robert Evans (157:22)

Yeah, that's right.

Garrison Davis (157:35)

And we are back. So on Tuesday, the mayor of D.C. ordered that the city will continue cooperating with federal law enforcement past the expiration date of Trump's crime emergency declaration, which is set for September 10th. She has established the, quote, Safe and Beautiful Emergency Operations Center. She is for DC to indefinitely coordinate with Trump's Safe and Beautiful task force. This is like a caving and like an acquiescence to prevent some kind of larger legal fight over Trump's ability to exert power over D.C. it's giving him a little bit of what he wants while trying to maintain a degree of, like, sovereignty. But in doing so, you kind of just play into what he actually wants. In the end, this operations center will work on, quote, centralized communications, formulate post emergency planning and operations, and ensure coordination with federal law enforcement to the maximum extent allowable by law within the District. District, unquote. Later in her order, she quote, unquote requests that federal partners adhere to effective community policing practices to maintain community confidence in law enforcement, such as by not wearing masks. Clearly identifying their agency and providing identification during arrests and encounters with the public.

Robert Evans (159:01)

Great.

Garrison Davis (159:02)

Quote, the safe and beautiful Emergency Operations center will continue to prioritize D.C. national Guard for typical mission focused activities, unquote. So they are requesting that federal partners not wear masks. And that's kind of the strongest amount of pushback the mayor is allowing in regards to Trump's federal control over law enforcement in D.C. great.

Robert Evans (159:25)

That'll solve it.

Mia Wong (159:26)

You know, a while back I said that like, one of the most important sources of support that the Trump administration has is a bunch of the Democratic mayors and governors. And, and oh boy, is this one of them.

Robert Evans (159:39)

Yeah.

Mia Wong (159:42)

However, comma, it's worth noting that this has not been the response of all of the Democratic governors. And I think we're going to turn here towards the impending occupation of Chicago.

Robert Evans (159:54)

Yeah.

Mia Wong (159:55)

So Trump has said that he is going to deploy the National Guard to Chicago ostensibly also because of crime. As of 232 Pacific Time on Wednesday the 3rd, we don't have a timeline for the National Guard deployment that could change. The situation is evolving rapidly. We will get to more in a second. We also have conflicting reports where Illinois Governor J.B. pritzker has said that the Texas National Guard is being staged to sort of participate in this sort of occupation of Chicago. Greg Abbott has denied this. We sort of don't know who, what exactly is going on with that. But it is worth noting that both Governor Pritzker and Chicago Mayor Brandon Johnson have been very, very clear that they do not want a federal deployment in Chicago. They have said go home. Yeah, there isn't really, because this is a federal deployment, there isn't really much they can do about it outside of legal stuff. And the Trump administration has been a lot more careful about this than they were in LA in terms of how they're doing the deployments legally. So we'll, we'll see what happens with the National Guard deployments. However, and this is something that I think is getting very, very little coverage, which is that the actual threat model on the ground in Chicago and the day this is going up, we'll, we will have run in an interview the day before with Raven, who's a journalist from the Chicago based outlet, unraveled about what the response in Chicago has been to all of this and how people are repairing and what the threat model is. The actual thing people are worried about in Chicago is not the National Guard so much. It is the deployment of federal agents from Homeland Security, including ICE and the Border Patrol. Very, very specifically, there is significant concern about Border Patrol because while there has been ICE operation in the city and it's obviously very bad, as we sort of talked about, there really hasn't been any significant Border Patrol deployments. And that seems like it's about to start as an indication of how fast the situation is moving. So that interview was recorded Wednesday morning, September 3rd? Yeah, September 3rd. In the time between that recording and now, which was maybe three hours, we got more information about the federal deployment. So the Sun Times is reporting, based on reports from government officials, that that 230 agents, including Border Patrol are being sent from LA to Chicago. Thirty agents are already here. They've been doing training in anti riot stuff with flashbangs. They've also apparently moved 140 unmarked vans to this naval base. Not really in Chicago. We'll get to that in a second. But they've moved 140 unmarked vans to do these kind of raids. This very much suggests that they're going to do the kind of smash and grab raids we've been seeing in la. That's the thing people are very worried about. And we've seen, you know, tiktoks from the senior leadership at the Border Patrol talking about how they're tiktoks.

Robert Evans (163:05)

I know, it's, it's bleak.

Mia Wong (163:08)

Yeah. No, literally it's like it's tiktoks of him going like we're trading our palm trees for skyscrapers. Geez, it's really bad. And it seems like they're going to be deploying the kind of smash and grab raids they did in la. But comma, there's one final thing I want to get to. This naval base is not really in Chicago. It is really far north of Evanston, which is like a thing that's like not Chicago. It's like this naval base that they're deploying from is closer to Kenosha than it is like Kenosha, Wisconsin than it is to like even the north side of Chicago. It's like, like really, really far north. Again, like even getting to, I mean, neighborhoods that are pretty far north. It's like an hour out. Right. It is multi, a multiple hour drive into the center of the city. So it's going to be kind of difficult for them to deploy in the middle of the city. This is something I talked about with Raven. It looks like they're trying to hit the more outlining areas more with raids because those areas are less well defended and there's not not as much sort of rapid reaction stuff there. That's sort of what this looks like, people are preparing because I guess there's one more important thing, which is the naval base is where they're running their operations out of. But the naval bases, like, has declined the request to, like, house them. So they're probably going to be in hotels. People are going to target those. But yeah, that, that's, that's where things are at. As of Wednesday, they're staging in this weird naval base that is really not close to the city.

Garrison Davis (164:42)

Yeah. I mean, the real focus on this anti crime crackdown is also a way to like, Trojan horse, slightly obscured ICE operations. And when people are talking about, like, National Guard deployments to cities nationwide, the actual main mode that National Guard will be operating in is logistical and like, like paperwork support for ice operations.

Robert Evans (165:04)

Yep.

Garrison Davis (165:04)

@ least for these, like, broader nationwide deployments, with the specific deployment in D.C. and in Chicago, there's more preparation for, like, carrying out ordinary law enforcement actions. But those actions also exist in coordination with immigration crackdowns. And like, that's a lot of what these, like, more militarized occupations are going to be focused on.

Mia Wong (165:25)

Yeah. And it's worth noting, like, just logistically, like, they're not going to be sending the guards into the parts of Chicago where they're like, is crime sometimes. Although again, it's worth noting, crime rates are weigh the fuck down.

Robert Evans (165:38)

Yeah.

Mia Wong (165:38)

But also, like, every story about this is like, oh, there were shootings over the weekend. And it's like, yeah, it's not good. But like, the National Guard is not going to be deployed to stop shootings. They literally can't get there. Again, it's like three hours out.

Robert Evans (165:53)

No, they can't get to the north side of Chicago. And as we all know from the song Bad Bad Leroy Brown, the south side of Chicago is the baddest of part, part of town.

Raven (166:01)

Jesus Christ.

Mia Wong (166:03)

I'm just gonna ignore that.

Robert Evans (166:04)

Yeah, you should just ignore that.

Mia Wong (166:05)

There are places in north side they could deploy. But if you're trying to get to the actual south side, it is at least a three hour drive. And that's like assuming that, like, the traffic isn't bad. Like, it's at least three hours. It's possibly larger than that. I, I didn't even bother checking it because I looked at where this was and I was like, this is basically in Wisconsin. What are we doing here? So, like, this is, you know, this is, this is, as Gus Gearson was saying, this is a, this is a giant show of force thing. And it's. But it's most just. This is the sort of shock and awe thing to frame this as crime so that people aren't focusing on and obviously like it's bad having just like troops in the streets. But like the ICE enforcement and the border patrol deployment is what the actual threat is here. And yeah.

Garrison Davis (166:49)

And like, yeah, the Pentagon and the Trump admin are planning a lot of different scenarios that they would like to enact. But Trump's actual comments on like a larger military style deployment to Chicago have been a little bit flip floppy. I think they're still trying to reach some kind of deal to work with local government and state governments in a way that is less bombastic than a completely adversarial deployment would be. Even that press conference where the shambling corpse of Trump made an appearance, his comments about the possibility of deploying to Chicago is seemed still pretty exploratory. Like there's still like conversations being had about how to actually do this. They are not as brazen as what they were in la and they don't have as much justification to do what they did in D.C. to a city like Chicago. So they're still trying to work out some kind of deal with like the local governments.

Mia Wong (167:48)

Yeah. And it's really unclear to me that they're going to be able to reach a deal with Brennan Johnson and with Pritzker who's leading it.

Garrison Davis (167:55)

It seems that Brandon Johnson's less willing to work with Trump on this than the mayor of D.C. so props to him for that, I guess.

Mia Wong (168:02)

Yeah. Yeah. And this is also a thing where Brandon Johnson is like very deeply unpopular in Chicago. However, comma, an actual federal deployment there is so unpopular that you have, you have the fact that the Sun Times is pointing out in the reporting of this that crime rates are down, which they have never done like ever. That's not a thing they ever talk about. It's so unpopular that there is really, really significant pressure on both Pritzker and Johnson not to do this. And you know, maybe they cave. I have, I have a kind of low opinion of them from like my like time in the city doing politics there, but I don't think they're going to cave on this.

Robert Evans (168:38)

No.

Mia Wong (168:39)

And I think what that means is that it's mostly going to be the Homeland Security, like ice, Border Patrol deployments.

Garrison Davis (168:46)

Yeah. Because Chicago does fall into our very loose definition of like a border town.

Robert Evans (168:51)

Uh huh. Yes. Which most towns are. Yeah, yeah. Speaking of J.B. pritzker, I mean he has a lot of corporate interests. He may have stock in one of the companies advertising on our show. We'd have no way of knowing.

Garrison Davis (169:18)

I just got a text from JV Pritzker, who's recruiting for the private people's militia to defend the free municipality of Chicago.

Robert Evans (169:26)

That's right. He's recruiting horse archers for the con of the plains. Yeah. It rises. You've got to be able to loose 12 arrows a minute from the back of a war pony in order to make the cut.

Mia Wong (169:40)

Protesters did shoot arrows at the cops at Hong Kong.

Garrison Davis (169:43)

So.

Mia Wong (169:44)

So it's not. It's not without precedent.

Robert Evans (169:46)

Yes, they did. Yes, they did. At the university.

Mia Wong (169:48)

Yeah, well.

Garrison Davis (169:49)

And you know, if Florida National Guard deploys to Illinois, they may be able to use biological warfare because the Florida Surgeon General has just vowed to end all of the state's vaccine mandates, equating them with slavery.

Robert Evans (170:03)

Amazing stuff.

Garrison Davis (170:04)

Not. Not. Not just the COVID mandates. All vaccine mandates across this state. After he announced this, he got literally like over 30 seconds of applause, like, non stop. I will play a little bit of the end of this announcement.

Mia Wong (170:19)

Every last one of them is wrong and drips with disdain and slavery. Okay. Who am I as a government or anyone else?

Garrison Davis (170:31)

Or who am I as a man standing here now to tell you what you should put.

Robert Evans (170:36)

Put in your body?

Mia Wong (170:39)

Who am I to tell you what.

Robert Evans (170:42)

Your child should put in your body?

Garrison Davis (170:45)

I don't have that right. Your body.

Mia Wong (170:49)

Your body is a gift from God.

Raven (170:52)

He really wanted to say your body, your choice.

Garrison Davis (170:56)

What you put into your body is because of your relationship with your body and your God. God, I don't have that right.

Robert Evans (171:04)

Oh, really?

Raven (171:05)

Oh, really?

Mia Wong (171:05)

Oh, wow. Unless it's trans healthcare, in which case you simply cannot.

Garrison Davis (171:10)

A little on the nose there.

Mia Wong (171:12)

God.

Robert Evans (171:12)

Yeah.

Garrison Davis (171:13)

It's frankly wild.

Robert Evans (171:14)

Oh, yeah.

Raven (171:18)

It's like. It's like that commercial that was.

Garrison Davis (171:21)

I don't know.

Raven (171:22)

You. You might be too young for this case. There's this commercial with this. This old man with like a dollar on a fishing rod going, yo, almost got it.

Garrison Davis (171:30)

It's literally that.

Raven (171:31)

It's literally that.

Garrison Davis (171:33)

No, no, Very close into walking into a full body autonomy argument there. Even though, you know, for reproductive health care that has. Is unrelated to general public health, which is why these mandates exist, which can affect people besides you.

Mia Wong (171:46)

Yep.

Garrison Davis (171:48)

Ron DeSantis announced during the same press conference the creation of Florida's own Make America Healthy Again Commission, which will in enforce Robert F. Kennedy's policies to the fullest extent in their state.

Robert Evans (172:00)

Grand.

Raven (172:01)

He was the least charismatic person we saw speak at the RNC last year. Just saying.

Garrison Davis (172:05)

Yeah, DeSantis.

Raven (172:06)

Yeah. In my opinion.

Garrison Davis (172:08)

No, no, who is worse? J.T.

Mia Wong (172:10)

Vance.

Robert Evans (172:11)

Yeah. Vance was there.

Raven (172:12)

That, that. That lady did fall asleep, man.

Robert Evans (172:16)

And people. People were outwardly contemptuous of Vance at the RN and see, like. Like Republicans were contemptuous, but they'll remember the.

Raven (172:25)

The women for Trump.

Garrison Davis (172:26)

The woman who fell asleep next to us while watching the Vance speech and then mouthed.

Raven (172:30)

He's so dry.

Mia Wong (172:32)

Yeah.

Robert Evans (172:32)

Yeah, that was really good.

Garrison Davis (172:34)

Yeah.

Raven (172:35)

But I would say Desantis is a. Is a solid number two. Maybe Abbott three. Don't know.

Garrison Davis (172:41)

Maybe they should have got a vaccine to boost their. Boost their charisma stats.

Robert Evans (172:45)

That's right. That's how that works.

Raven (172:46)

Yeah. Lacks aura.

Garrison Davis (172:49)

So this is really dangerous. This is gonna put a whole bunch of kids in harm's way.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (172:53)

Yep.

Garrison Davis (172:54)

Worrying trend.

Raven (172:55)

Yeah.

Robert Evans (172:56)

I wanna talk a little bit about Ukraine. Ukraine specifically. Kind of the present situation of the war in Ukraine. Just kind of another little update because people catch little bits here and there on the news about what's happening, and I felt like we should probably update people as to, like, what's been going on. Kind of the most recent news you've probably heard is that Russian forces have been advancing in the Donetsk Oblast and recently broke into an eighth region of Ukraine and started taking villages in the Dniprop Petrovsk region, which is like a major industrial center that's next to the Donetsk region, where Russian soldiers had not been recently. At this point, gains in this new region by Russia have been. Seem to be fairly minimal. They've entered two villages in the eastern part of the region. The Russian Defense Ministry claims that they captured both of the villages. The Ukrainian Defense Ministry has said, well, they're in the area and they're basically contesting them, but they haven't entrenched or built fortifications. Like, fighting is ongoing. I'm sure neither country is giving out perfectly accurate data, but it seems certainly fair to say and verifiable to say that Russia has made an incursion into this region and the fighting is ongoing. However solid their gains may or may not be. This is not the entirety of what's going on in the conflict overall. The. Basically the whole line of contact with Russia, which is about a thousand miles long, is in play at the moment, but there have not been, like, massive gains over the last couple of months. And in fact, as of August of 2025, Russian forces occupied about 19% of Ukrainian territory. They first hit 19% back in October of 2022, right before Ukrainian forces liberated a large chunk of the Kherson Oblast. So basically, what we're seeing here is Russian forces reached this peak like three years ago. A Ukrainian counteroffensive pushed them back. And over the last three years Russian forces have kind of clawed their way back to where they were near the end of 2022. Right. If you're looking for like what is the overall progress of this war over the last three years. So that's obviously not going well for Ukraine, but it's also not, this is not a situation where Ukrainian forces are in any kind of collapse. Like you're looking at. It took Russia three years to get back to where they were three years ago. So this is, I mean this continues to be a grinding and hideous conflict, but it does not look like one at which the end is in any way in sight. Still, even with the kind of pulling of support from the US of Ukraine, with a reduction in arms shipments and whatnot from the United States to Ukraine, there's not any signs of like a generalized collapse. And in fact over the last couple of years there's been a fairly minimal increase in occupied territory. Right now the pace of Russia's advance in Ukraine, PER A recent AP article, has slowed by 18% just over the month of August. So Russian forces took about 460km of territory in August and had been seizing more like 5,600 square kilometers of territory a month in the couple of months prior to that. So that's kind of what you're looking at in terms of the overall like pace of the conflict. One of the major changes that we've seen over the last like really specifically like couple of quarters in the conflict is Ukraine has been increasing their capacity to hit Russian strategic targets behind the line. Like, well behind the line we're talking fuel and we're talking power infrastructure which has been extremely successful. One of the things that's allowed Ukraine to hit these further back targets has been they've, they've started producing an indigenous style of cruise missile codenamed the Flamingo, which has an 1100, almost 1200 kilogram warhead and a 3000 kilometer range, which puts it about a thousand kilometers past kind of the maximum range. The one way attack drones like these one way suicide UAVs which had been Ukraine's like furthest in way to strike Russian territory. Those only reached in about 2,000km. So this puts a significant amount of like Russia's infrastructure within Ukraine's ability to target. They're currently producing, I think that they're hoping to get up to by the end of the year, seven missiles a day by October. Now these, these new cruise Missiles are fairly easy to shoot down with like modern air defenses, but modern air defenses are in short supply. So it's a matter of if you're able to produce an increasing number of these and you're flinging as many of them as you can out every day, the Russians will have to make choices in terms of what infrastructure are we actually going to devote anti missile assets towards. And you know, that's, that's always going to be less than the total like, number of targets there are to hit. And the, in terms of like evidence that these strikes have been successful, there has been increasing limitations on personal fuel use inside the Russian Federation and increasing power outages. Like all of that has gotten more common over even just like the last several months in particular. So kind of overall what we see if we're looking at this conflict is a grinding, high casualty endeavor where the Russians are slowly pushing back Ukrainian lines at the cost of a pretty nightmarish number of casualties. Right. Like this is still a meat grinder conflict. And that dimension on the ground for the Russians hasn't changed. The main thing thing that has changed is Ukraine has gotten better at striking behind the line, which has been met by a significant acceleration in Russian strikes, particularly even on like civilian assets in Ukraine. Like there have been more missile campaigns, more drone bombardment campaigns on the capital and civilian targets than previously. Like some of the largest raids just took place like three or four days ago. You know, that's kind of a broad update as to what's going on. It continues to be a very ugly war. One of the main things that we've learned about what modern warfare is going to look like is that it is almost impossible for infantry forces without air supremacy to break and make large advances and then hold that territory if they do not have air supremacy. When you're looking at two peer combatants, that's almost impossible to do. And so a significant amount of the fighting devolves into who can fling drones and missiles behind the lines and hands hit different sort of strategic assets with more efficacy. And that's what the war has bogged down to at this stage.

Garrison Davis (179:31)

Speaking of aerial strikes, do we want to at least reference the attack on the Venezuelan alleged drug smuggling vessel that was announced during Trump's death press conference?

Robert Evans (179:42)

Yeah, we blew up a boat. We did it. A boat in international waters. That was claimed to be a trend agua, which is a Venezuelan kind of analogous to a cartel organized criminal organization.

Garrison Davis (179:55)

One of the biggest boogeymans of the second Trump term.

Robert Evans (179:58)

Yes, their primary, like Latin American boogeyman And, yeah, we blew them up. The administration is claiming it was, you know, filled with fentanyl or whatever. I don't believe there is, as of yet, any independent evidence that this boat was in any way affiliated with Trindagua or carrying drugs or headed to the United States. We simply don't know. So a lot of times, like, just the way that Trinda Agua works, this is not like the Sinaloa cartel. This is not a cartel that has a massive degree of international capacity that extends to the United States. Like, there's even significant debate as to how much they are extended into other parts of Latin America. They've had, like, really limited success expanding into Colombia because different insurgent groups like the FARC and the ELN have provided a significant countervailing force to them. And I wanted to note, because one of my sources is an article on Trindagua by America's Quarterly. And in talking about their kind of troubled expansion into Colombia, this article notes, tellingly, even in these spaces, TDA operatives subcontract smaller local gangs and authorize them to use their name to generate fear and compliance with their victims. And this is a really common thing with Trind Agua, where when you're seeing, oh, this is, you know, TDA affiliated or whatnot, these guys may have no actual communication or very much to do at all with the centralized group. They're just kind of using the name for branding purposes because it. It, you know, scares off other gangs because it allows them to, like, act as if they're connected to this larger organization, but they really are not in a very meaningful way. In the same way, a lot of. You'll see a lot of articles that'll be talking about, like, these are Trinda Agua tattoos. Like, none of them are actual will, like, tattoos affiliated with the group. This is, like, largely nonsense because Trindagua doesn't have a tattoo tradition. Per the people who are actually experts on Trindagua. There's a lot of good articles, particularly in insight crime, Jeremy McDermott being one of the authors that have tried to bust a lot of these myths about tda. We'll be doing more coverage on them in the future. But, like, yeah, that's kind of the situation.

Garrison Davis (182:06)

Speaking of international shipments. Oh, boy.

Robert Evans (182:25)

Ah, that's good stuff.

Mia Wong (182:27)

Jesus Christ. Okay, so nobody being murdered in cold blood to post a video on x.com the Everything app in this one. But.

Garrison Davis (182:37)

But probably its own fair share of harm.

Mia Wong (182:40)

Yeah. So at the end of last week, the official, like, end of the de minimis exemption for packages under $800 finally fully went into effect. We're going to talk about this more next week when it's more clear what the large scale ramifications of this are. We have been talking about this for a very, very long time. The other really big news this week, and this is, I think most of what's been going on here has been the US Circuit Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit ruled that most of the tariffs that are in effect are illegal. Now, the court also basically put in a thing saying that this ruling doesn't go into effect until October 14th so that Trump can have time to appeal this to the Supreme Court. He's already appealing it to the Supreme Court trying to. He wants a, quote, expedited ruling from the Supreme Court. He started ranting about how so if the tariffs go back into effect, are not allowed to be in effect, the U.S. will, quote, turn into a third world country or may turn into a third world country.

Garrison Davis (183:42)

Oh, no.

Mia Wong (183:43)

Yeah.

Garrison Davis (183:44)

So not a third world country.

Mia Wong (183:46)

Oh, God.

Garrison Davis (183:48)

The American century of humiliation continues to chug on.

Mia Wong (183:50)

Yeah. So, okay. It actually is worth talking about this case a little but bit because it goes to the core of what's been happening with these tariffs, which is that.

Garrison Davis (184:01)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mia Wong (184:02)

Okay. So in the Constitution, if you read it, it says that the power of taxes and tariffs lie with Congress. It really explicitly says this. I'm going to read a thing from the ruling. This is, this is a quote from the ruling. Quote, the Constitution grants Congress the power to, quote, lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, and to, quote, regulate commerce with foreign nations. This is the Constitution, Article 1, Section 8. And I'm going to stop here to note that everything that's in the Bill of Rights was not in the original draft of the Constitution. That got tacked on later. So, like, freedom of speech and like freedom of assembly and like freedom of religion were considered less important by the people writing this than Congress or the other people who could do taxes. I'm going to keep reading from this ruler tariffs are a tax. And the framers of the Constitution expressly contemplated the exclusive granting of taxing power to the legislative branch. When Patrick Henry expressed concern that the president, quote, may easily become king. Debates in several state conventions. Jonathan Elliot, 1836. James Madison replied this would not occur because, quote, the purse is in the hand of the representatives of the people.

Garrison Davis (185:23)

So I cannot believe that we have a president doing a tea tax for foreign terrorists.

Robert Evans (185:29)

I know, I know.

Garrison Davis (185:31)

Where's Boston when you need it? Robert? Do the voice.

Robert Evans (185:34)

No, I'm not your fucking monkey.

Garrison Davis (185:37)

See, this is the only way to stop Robert from doing the voice is.

Robert Evans (185:41)

To try to get him to do.

Garrison Davis (185:42)

The voice because of oppositional defiance.

Robert Evans (185:45)

Yeah, that's what rules me.

Mia Wong (185:48)

Okay, speaking of what rules us. So Trump has been using the International Emergency Economic Powers act and he like, declared a state of emergency over, like, drug trafficking in order to do this. This is nonsense, gibberish. And this is actually where I think this is. There's a very, very significant part of this case here which is like, okay, what power does Trump actually have? Like, can he continue to just sort of rule the United States?

Garrison Davis (186:14)

Many people are asking these questions.

Mia Wong (186:16)

I'm going to read this, this, this line from cnn, which is quoting the court draft, quote, notably, when drafting the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, Congress did not use the term tariff or any of its synonyms like duty or tax. The Court said in its majority ruling the absence of any such tariff language in, in the act contrasts with statutes where Congress has affirmatively granted such powers and included clear limit on that power. So this law does not say that he could do this. He has simply been doing this the whole time with using a law that literally explicitly does not say the word tariff in it. So the court is extremely unhappy about.

Garrison Davis (187:00)

This, ladies and gentlemen. We got him.

Raven (187:03)

It really is.

Mia Wong (187:04)

I think this is, this is genuinely just on a basic constitutional level. This is one of the most staggering ones of these I've ever. In terms of just like, does the Constitution still exist?

Garrison Davis (187:15)

The answer is, eh, like, this is.

Mia Wong (187:18)

Article 1 of the Constitution. It's Article 1. This is the first shit they wrote. This was like literally the whole point of the American Revolution was that the king can't levy taxes. It has to be the parliamentary representatives of the people. That's like the whole thing. It was. The slogan was no taxation without representation.

Robert Evans (187:41)

Yes.

Mia Wong (187:41)

Yeah. And like, like, obviously that's the stated goal of it can obviously go into your. Right, there's like a million other things. You can go into your, like, territorial expansion, you can go into your slavery, blah, blah, blah, blah. But like, this is what it was supposed to be about and has just claimed this power from himself. And we're going to get a real test in the Supreme Court. So the Supreme Court comes back from their recess in like a month. So we're going to probably get a real test on how far the Supreme Court is willing to let Trump just straight up rule by executive fiat. But in the meantime, all these tariffs are still in effect. And yeah, this has been tariff talk. We have talked about the tariffs.

Robert Evans (188:21)

Excellent.

Garrison Davis (188:22)

Well, I believe that does it for us here at It Could Happen Here.

Robert Evans (188:26)

All right, everybody, until next time. You know, just if anyone tells you the president is dead, assume they're telling the truth and go live your life.

Garrison Davis (188:36)

We reported the news.

Raven (188:38)

We reported the news.

Robert Evans (188:44)

Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of the universe.

Raven (188:50)

It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, Visit our website coolzone media.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find sources for It Could Happen here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.

Annabe Ad Voice (189:13)

Life's messy. We're talking spills, stains, pets and kids. But with Annabe, you never have to stress about messes again. At washablesofas.com, discover Anibe Sofas, the only fully machine washable sofas inside and out, starting at just $699. Made with liquid and stain resistant fabrics, that means fewer stains and more peace of mind. Designed for real life, our sofas feature changeable fabric covers allowing you to refresh your style anytime. Need flexibility? Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa effortlessly. Perfect for cozy apartments or spacious homes. Plus, they're earth friendly and built to last. That's why over 200,000 happy customers have made the switch. Upgrade your space today. Visit washablesofas.com now and bring home a sofa made for life. That's washablesofas.com offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

Raven (190:12)

I'm Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman, host of the Psychology Podcast. Here's a clip from an upcoming conversation.

Robert Evans (190:18)

About how to be a better you.

Raven (190:20)

When you think about emotion regulation, you're not going to choose an adaptive strategy which is more effortful to use unless you think there's a good outcome. Avoidance is easier.

Robert Evans (190:30)

Ignoring is easier. Denial is easier.

Raven (190:33)

Complex problem solving takes effort.

Robert Evans (190:35)

Listen to the Psychology podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Garrison Davis (190:42)

I just think the process and the journey is so delicious. That's where all the good stuff is.

Honey German (190:47)

You just can't live and die by the end result.

Simone Boyce (190:50)

That's comedian Phoebe Robinson. And yeah, those are the kinds of gems you'll only hear on my podcast, the Bright side. I'm your host, Simone Boyce. I'm talking to the brightest minds in entertainment, health, wellness and pop culture. And every week we're going places in our communities, our careers, and ourselves. So join me every Monday and let's find the bright side together. Listen to the bright side on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (191:18)

I always had to be so good.

Garrison Davis (191:19)

No one could ignore me. Carve my path with data and drive.

Jack (Alt Watcher) (191:24)

But some people only see who I am on paper. The paper ceiling the limitations from degree screens to stereotypes that are holding back over 70 million stars. Workers skilled through alternative routes rather than a bachelor's degree. It's time for skills to speak for themselves.

Garrison Davis (191:41)

Find resources for breaking through barriers@tetherpaperceiling.org Brought to you by OpportunityAtWork and the Ad Council.

Raven (191:47)

This is an iHeart podcast.