It Could Happen Here Weekly 211

Summary

Behind the Bastards / It Could Happen Here Weekly 211 (Dec 6, 2025): Episode Summary

Overview of the Episode

This episode of Behind the Bastards (It Could Happen Here Weekly 211) offers a profoundly intimate and unflinching look at the lives and struggles of migrants, particularly in the context of the current (2025) US political climate. Centering mainly on the story of Primrose, a Zimbabwean asylum seeker, and her daughter Kim, the episode uses first-person accounts, on-the-ground reporting, and expert legal commentary to illustrate both the human and systemic experiences of migration. The hosts contrast deeply reported personal stories with broader trends, shifting political realities under a renewed Trump administration, historical analysis, current news, and community activism.

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Main Themes

• The perilous journey and lived trauma of migrants from Africa, South America, and beyond.
• The dehumanizing forces of borders, state violence, and media indifference.
• The collapse of asylum and legal protections in the US under Trump 2.0.
• Community solidarity and the small-scale victories, both legal and personal, migrants and their supporters achieve.
• Historical continuity of anti-migrant violence and erasure, from Woody Guthrie’s “Deportee” to contemporary media.
• Calls for ordinary people to act in solidarity as institutions fail.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Primrose and Kim’s Journey: From Zimbabwe to the Border (03:27–35:19, recurring)

• Primrose fled Zimbabwe due to political persecution, violence, and deep economic collapse.
  • "In Zimbabwe, they can even kill you... I lose a lot of friends. Kidnapped, killed me also... They even tortured me." (58:45)
  • Even her daughter's father disappeared amid the violence.
• The journey went through South Africa (with severe xenophobic violence), Brazil, Colombia, Panama (crossing the dangerous Darien Gap), through Central America, and Mexico.
  • "I was scared to stay in Mexico... so they took us under the bridge, I think the sewage. We were walking with our stomach, like, under the bridge... till we get to USA and Mexican border." (04:04–04:41)
  • "The journey was tough, really, really tough... I don't even recommend someone to say, use Darien... I was crying. I was like, God, I don't know my family, and my family, they don't know where I am right now." (24:44–25:28)
• Frequent encounters with kidnapping, sexual assault, extortion by smugglers and Mexican officials, and cartel violence.
  • Kidnapped in Guadalajara: held for $15,000 ransom (26:38–28:17).
  • Kim (daughter) learned Spanish for survival, crucial during their captivity.

Notable Quote

“I want to just put myself in the water. Then I can just go both... I was regretting myself. I was crying. I was like, God, I don't know my family, and my family, they don't know where I am right now.” – Primrose (25:14)

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2. Brutality, Erasure, and the Media: Migrants as “Stories” Not People (54:32–56:28)

• Discussion of a viral video: Primrose falling from the border wall, breaking her leg. Media coverage reduces her to “one woman,” omitting her name and story, echoing historic erasure (e.g., 1948 Los Gatos plane crash and Woody Guthrie’s “Deportee”).
  • “I’m not even happy. Yes, I know people, they make money with my video... A lot of people, they even don’t know where I am. But because of that video, they went to disturb my mom... She just moved.” (54:32–55:39)
• The reporting is extractive, for “page views,” failing to capture the reality of trauma, persecution, or humanity.

Notable Quote

“I was running for my life. But people, they just comment whatever they want. That video, even now, I’m not even happy…” – Primrose (54:36)

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3. Historical Context: “Deportee,” the Los Gatos Crash, and Migration (36:58–54:32)

• Woody Guthrie’s “Deportee” serves as a thread linking historic and current US neglect, brutality, and erasure of migrant stories.
  • Detailed recounting of the 1948 Los Gatos crash, burial of unnamed migrants, and decades-later memorialization.
  • “Three quarters of a century later, reporting hasn’t got any better… The people who die for the American dream are totally ignored in the coverage of migration.” (52:24)

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4. Collapse of Asylum and Legal Protections Under Trump (82:53–117:39)

• The Trump administration signs orders to:
  • Cancel CBP1 appointments and ban most asylum.
  • Resume wall construction, increase enforcement, and mass deportations.
  • Use Section 212(f) and 235 powers to “self-deport” asylum seekers, expedited removals, and circumvent due process.
• Primrose and Kim detained at ICE check-ins, endure bureaucratic hell, GPS tracking, and the threat of indefinite detention or deportation.
  • "Then they took me to Santana. We were just sitting. Not even one ICE officer come talk to me. ... I was crying, to be honest." (96:59–105:00)
• Lawyer Kirsten Zitlau explains legal changes: unprecedented self-deportation orders, hearings stacked against migrants, clock-stopping on work cards, double jeopardy with repeated removals.
  • “Judges are sending out these notices with routine other orders… It’s obvious they’re fighting their case. So it’s one of the things where you just feel very strongly this administration’s influence.” (86:21)

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5. Detention and Survival (105:24–117:39)

• Life in ICE detention centers: language isolation, poor food, depression, boredom, psychological harm.
  • "We were just sitting. ... Depression... I think it's depression. So they put me in depression pills till I get it out." (111:40–111:51)
• The threat of “self-deportation” as official policy: forms regularly left in cells, pressure and rudeness from officers.
  • “He said, I don't care. Even if they kill you, I don't even care.” (114:31–115:07)
• Eventually, with massive community and legal support, Primrose and Kim are released, though left in precarious status, unable to work, and haunted by surveillance and instability.

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6. Grassroots Solidarity: Ordinary People vs. Institutional Violence (127:04–149:08)

• Community members raise funds, offer housing (notably “Matt,” a podcast listener), buy books, give rides, form mutual aid.
  • "I'm just a normal person who listens to a lot of podcasts... I got into that mode where I couldn't not finish it. I was absolutely hooked and just needed to get all the way to the end, and was just really, really moved by the whole thing." – Matt (129:04)
  • Matt takes in Primrose and Kim, reflects on risks and rewards, the reality of action: "It's not as hard as you might think to help folks like Primrose..." (148:41)
• Emphasis that solidarity isn’t limited to “saviors” but woven through mutual acts—rides, food, legal aid, companionship, direct action at ICE raids.

Notable Quote

“There are millions of people who are mad right now, but anger alone is not going to help us take care of people. That's what the priority should be right now.” (147:01)

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7. Comparative Migrant Stories (65:42–76:43)

• Testimonies from Anouk, Nepalese migrant (“We need to be kind”) and Rose, Bolivian (“There are children, and they are really the ones who suffer the most on this journey. ... I have a dream to go there...")
• Sharp, empathetic contrast between their dreams and the denial of those dreams through policy.

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8. Policy, News, and Current Events Segment (155:15–209:45)

• Rapid-fire updates and explainer on:
  • US drone strikes, drone “fog of war” claims (185:26–189:49)
  • National Guard shooting, attacks on Afghan migrants, and new restrictions on asylum from “high-risk countries.” (175:10–183:54)
  • Sanctuary law nuances, “170 serious crimes” list, ICE detainers in NYC, and how National Guard might be utilized for deportation raids (191:05–205:36)
  • Chilling speech/freedom of religion discourse: Oklahoma University instructor online pile-on after grading a non-cited essay (208:14–219:45)
  • The rise of prediction/betting markets in media coverage (220:11–224:18)
  • Repeated emphasis on the need for clarity, transparency, and public organizing versus government power.

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9. Closing Reflections and a Call to Care (125:29–150:00; 152:12–155:15)

• Returning to the work of memorializing the lost, acting in the face of cruelty, not letting migrants be invisible.
  • “Our politics shouldn’t be about anger. It should be about love. Now more than ever, it’s important to remember that we don’t act on our love and our solidarity with angry tweets. We act on it by taking care of people.” (125:29)
• Final word to Primrose, expressing gratitude for community support and hope for Kim’s future:
  • “Even if I say I can me myself, I can say thank you. I don’t even know how to say thank you, But I’m just. God knows God. Please bless those people who put hands on me and Kim. I thought maybe I’m alone, but I realized I’m not alone here. … My life is like changing now.” (152:12)

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Memorable Moments and Quotes

• “That’s what strong borders means. It means brave little girls disappearing, so a politician who knows nothing of their struggles can point to a statistic.” – James (13:10)
• “We can come from a broad range of perspectives and still get to the same place. When someone needs help, you help them. And if we all do that, then when we need help, someone will help us.” (150:16)
• “…what is asylum for if not for that?” – Matt, on Primrose’s case (139:11)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:27–26:19: The journey from Zimbabwe, border crossing narratives
• 26:38–34:59: Kidnapping in Mexico; survival, resistance, and community
• 36:58–54:32: “Deportee” and historical context of migrant erasure
• 54:32–56:28: Media exploitation of migrant trauma (viral video)
• 58:14–64:50: Primrose on root causes (Zimbabwe, South Africa)
• 82:53–117:39: US asylum policy collapse and ICE detention experience
• 127:04–149:08: Community solidarity, mutual aid, and the “Matt” story
• 152:12–154:31: Primrose’s gratitude and hope
• 155:15–209:45: Weekly news (sanctuary laws, ICE raids, drone strikes, prediction markets, campus free speech)

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Tone and Language

The tone is both compassionate and urgent, blending personal testimony, investigative reporting, and direct calls for action. The language balances analytical clarity with raw, emotional honesty, honoring the voices and agency of migrants like Primrose while indicting state and media complicity.

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Summary Takeaway

This episode is a searing portrait of forced migration and survival in an era of resurgent authoritarianism and border violence. Yet, at its core, it is a testament to the enduring possibility of human solidarity—reminding listeners that the fight for justice, dignity, and the American Dream is won and lost not in courtrooms or legislative chambers, but in daily acts of care, resistance, and mutual aid.

Transcript

[Primrose]

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[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

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[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

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[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

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[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

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[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Follow the [e-mail].

[Matt]

Thanksgiving isn't just about food. It's a day for us to show up for one another.

[Primrose]

It's okay not to be okay sometimes.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

And be able to build strength and.

[Primrose]

Love within each other.

[Matt]

I'm Elliot Khani, host of the podcast Family Therapy, a series where real families come together to heal and find hope.

[Primrose]

I've always wanted us to have therapy.

[Kirsten Zitlau (Primrose's lawyer)]

So this is such a beautiful opportunity.

[Matt]

Listen to season two of Family Therapy every Wednesday on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sophie Lichterman]

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[Primrose]

It's time to try.

[Sophie Lichterman]

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[Primrose]

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[Sophie Lichterman]

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[Primrose]

Enroll [e-mail] and see the difference it.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Makes for your child. Oregon Charter Academy what learning should be.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

You know what your customers are doing right this second? The exact same thing. You are listening to me. Which, let's be honest, is kind of flattering. But my point Is, ads on iHeartRadio actually get heard in the car, at.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

The gym, on the couch, while people are walking their dogs.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Who's a good boy?

[Matt]

Who's a good boy?

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

You're a good boy. That's right. You're a good. So why not make the next ad about you? Get started today. Call 844-844-IHEART or go to iheartadvertising.com that's.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

844-844, iheart or iheartadvertising.com.

[Garrison Davis]

Call Zone Media.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Wanted to let you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode of the week that.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Just happened is here in one convenient.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

And with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in a long stretch.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

If you want.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, there's going to be nothing new here for you. But you can make your own decisions.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

I conducted interviews for this series in Spanish and French. Then I transcribed them and translated them and we had voice actors read them. So when you're listening to this, please remember that everything you're hearing in English was recorded in another language. And it's through the lens of my.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Translation that you're hearing these people's words. As we always do, we have included.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

The sources for this podcast in the show Notes. I've also included a link to Primrose's legal aid fundraiser.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

People would like to help out.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Like most of you, I wasn't having.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

A great day on the 20th of January of 2025. I wasn't about to watch the inauguration, so I went for a run in the mountains instead.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

I spent the next few weeks trying.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

To focus on the things we could do, the things we had to do to get through four years of fascism. Just a few miles away from my house, I set out for my run. And unbeknown to me, my friend Primrose was staring down from the top of a 30 foot steel monument to hate that Donald Trump had built the last time he was president. To be more accurate, it was one that he had modified.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

There have been versions of the border.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Wall in San Diego for decades.

[Primrose]

They said, no, we have an option, we need to take you. But, you know, for me, I had to take a risk because.

I was scared to stay in Mexico.

So they took us under the bridge, I think the sewage. We were walking with our stomach, like, under the bridge.

Till we get to USA and Mexican border. So they put ladder for us to help us.

Those people, when they saw American immigration came, they just removed the ladder and me, I was on top. So I had, yeah, I was stuck there and I had no choice. And Kimberly, she was crying like, come, let's go, let's go.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

At that time, I knew nothing about it. But her daughter Kim had already jumped as the Biden presidency drew to a close. But before Trump began signing executive orders with pens he tossed into the crowd, she'd made it into the us. Her mum was in the US as well. The wall is inside the border. But the people who had helped her get up to the top of the wall had fled when Border Patrol arrived, taking their ladder with them. And so Primrose was left atop the wall. The literal and metaphorical final hurdle in her long and dangerous journey that had begun in Zimbabwe went through South Africa, Brazil, Colombia, Panama, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Honduras, Guatemala and Mexico.

But before we come down from the border wall, I want to take you back to the Miss Soaked Riverbank of Maraganti last September.

Daddy, my fixer and I had woken up at an ungodly hour and so.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Had the jungle birds.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Along with half the population of the village. We walked down to the riverbank carrying the engines and fuel tanks. At Piraguas a few minutes later, a chorus of two stroke engines and smoke.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Fired up as the boat set off towards Bajo Chiquito.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

I stood in the bow still trying to master the use of the pole. As we passed through the faster moving shallower water, Daddy sat in the middle and laughed at me.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Despite my best efforts, we arrived in.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

One piece in Bajo Chiquito and I launched myself from the bow into knee deep water. On the rocky beach in front of us stood hundreds of people patiently waiting for the Piragueros to take them north and out of the jungle. Stretched like a snake all the way through town. The line of migrants must have totaled a thousand people. I walked backwards away from the boats, the only foreigner not leaving. Look for people I'd met the day before.

About halfway down the line stood Primrose and Kim.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

I stopped while we chatted for a bit about what the boat ride was like, what they could expect next.

[Primrose]

Yeah, I'm going there.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Yeah?

[Primrose]

Yeah, I'm going to United States.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Do you have family there? No.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

You just make your American life?

[Primrose]

No, it's okay. I think I'm just trying. No, it's only me and my daughter.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Despite this, they had found community on the journey. I can't describe how scary it must be for two women to set out on this journey alone. It takes an awful lot to embark on that journey and to be able to trust people when everyone is a potential threat. But if there's one thing I learned in a jungle, it's that in the hardest times and the hardest places, the only way forward is together. Primrose reminded me of this, telling me how complete strangers had helped her.

[Primrose]

Very nice. This, especially these Spanish people, they are very nice. I don't want to lie. Because if you need help, if you call them for help, the other ones, they might run away. But the other ones, they just come for help. They even give us tablets on the road, give us energy drinks, give my daughter sweets for energy. They push us like, let's go guys, let's go, let's go. You make it.

And we really make it.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

That's really nice to hear. I asked Primrose a question. I asked everyone there. What did she hope for when she got to America? What was her American dream?

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

What do you hope for.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

For her in America?

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

What do you want to do in America?

[Primrose]

I want to answer. To go to school. Then she can achieve something in life. I don't wish my daughter to go back to school, Zemo. No.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah.

[Primrose]

Not at all.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

No. It's very hard in Zim.

[Primrose]

Yeah, it's. It's really, really tough. Even in South Africa.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Gracias.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

I saw them a few days later in Las Blancas after it sat with a group of little Venezuelan children playing a game where we'd throw bottle tops into a broken half cinder block.

We talked about the struggle they faced to pay for the bus north, and we didn't record anything that day. But as I was leaving for the evening, Kim asked me if I could buy her a drink. I generally try not to splash my money around because I don't have enough.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Money to help everyone.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

And I still have some scars from the ridiculous concept of objectivity that would lead some editors not to commission a story from me if I gave the subject a gift. But this time I felt like buying her a drink, and I let her select the biggest bottle of cold soda she could find in the little store in the camp there. I told her and her mum to stay in touch and wrote my number on a piece of my notebook, tore it out and gave it to them. Months later, Kim was holding the same scrap of paper, looking up at her mum stuck on the border wall. A whole lot had changed since I last saw them. A few days after my scripted podcast from the Daddy and Gap was released, the United States elected Donald Trump as its 47th president. It was a shit month all around that my phone, as it often does, lit up with messages from my daddy and friends asking me what this meant and if Trump was going to close the border. I didn't really know how to answer those questions, because if there's one thing we know about Trump, it's he changed his mind. Every few weeks.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

As we got closer and closer to.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

The day he was inaugurated, they got more and more concerned. Most of them hadn't made it out of southern Mexico. Many of them had told me that things there were even worse in the jungle. They'd all been robbed, some of them had been sexually assaulted, some of them kidnapped, and some of them killed. I'd heard about all of these things. Every day from September last year to January this year, in the middle of a run or when I was having dinner, meeting a friend for a coffee, my phone would ring and I'd be confronted with terrible injustice. And I'd be totally powerless to set it right. As time went on, I heard from fewer and fewer of them. I assume their phones were stolen. But there are, of course, more upsetting explanations as to why they might have stopped contacting me. Noemi, the little girl who wanted to visit Minnie Mouse Video, called me once from Tapachulo with a little tiny toy bear that I'd given her and that she kept with her on the whole journey. It made me happy to see them and a silly little bear carved from soapstone that had traveled the lengths of South America with them. Every few weeks after I'd left, I'd.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Get photos of the bear in a.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Different country as a little osito worked its way closer to Disneyland. Some people who worked at Disneyland had reached out to offer suggestions about tickets. Other people had reached out offering to pay. I was, despite the odds, hoping that one day I could help one little girl see her American dream come true. When we spoke, she was with her mum and they were trying to log on to CBP1, hoping for an appointment, but it wouldn't work on their old Android phones. I tried to find shelters with reliable Internet that would take them in and called friends and NGOs almost every week, passing along questions or looking for resources. I spent hours calling, finding it hard to accept that the capacity for mutual aid was so overwhelmed that nobody had a safe space for little girl and her mom. I'm wondering if it still felt like a Peppa Pig adventure, or if even little indomitable Noemi was scared now, even from where I was. With fast Internet and a web of friends across the Western Hemisphere, I couldn't find the help people needed, and it made me increasingly angry and anxious the more I tried. It sucked, but there was still a chance, however slim, that one day I might get to see Noemi meet Minnie Mouse. So I kept trying, and so did her mum. Then one day I got no response from her mum's WhatsApp when I messaged her. Nobody picked up the phone when I tried to ring. I still haven't had a response, but periodically, I'll keep trying. Even the last messages and photos are gone now after my WhatsApp updated. Like so many of the people who I shared my food with, whose little children held my hand in the darkness.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Of the jungle, who I desperately wished.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

And wish I could do more for, they're gone now. That's what strong borders means. It means brave little girls disappearing, so a politician who knows nothing of their struggles can point to a statistic. I have listened to the interview I conducted with them so many times since last September. I still can't really work out how.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Anyone with a heart could hear that.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

And think they wanted to live in a world where that little girl wasn't safe.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

But that's what people voted for, I guess.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

I don't think they did, actually. I can't think they did. I think people lied to them and that's what they voted for. But nonetheless, here we are now, sitting in a country that didn't want to.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Help the little girl who flexed her.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Arm muscles to show me how strong she was after climbing the mountains of the most dangerous land migration route in the Americas and told me it was.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

For her all an adventure.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Her mother gave a different account.

[Garrison Davis]

I didn't want to cry because I didn't want her to see me crying. But sometimes I would explode. Because it's hard for your child to ask you for water, to ask you for food, and you don't have any. So be in a place where you walk. You walk from five in the morning, it's five in the afternoon. You're walking. You don't know what to do. Going through more than 100 rivers and asking God not to rain and not wanting it to get worse. It rained and the girl got a fever. She got a fever. But, well, God is good that we pray a lot. I say that we don't know God so much in the church and the process that we are in. And we don't know we can be so strong until we go through that storm and we see that he protects us. He knows that he was always there, watching over us, taking care of us at all times.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

I don't want to dwell on this too long, because talking in public about grief is something I'm bad at.

One of my friends died fighting in Ukraine this year. A colleague died just weeks before we'd planned a trip together. Some of my Burmese friends died fighting. But even as someone who talks to soldiers for a living, nothing really compares to the death toll inflicted by the US border regime. The little village in England where I grew up, there are memorials in every town and village for the young people who died fighting in the world wars. If we built those at the border, they'd soon be towering far above the wall that does so much of the killing. Things are as bad now as they've ever been. But wall construction in the San Diego sector that the Trump administration has proposed will waive environmental and cultural protections and push migrants further into the desert. In the desert, further from help, further from water, more of them will die. I speak to migrants all the time. The ones who stayed in Mexico, even the ones who took the Venezuelan government's offers of flights home. As much as they ask about America, they also ask about each other. Do I know what happened to the Angolans who shared their food so generously? They say no, I haven't heard from them. What about the Venezuelan trans girl who braided their children's hair? Well, she's still braiding hair, but she.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Hasn'T made it to the US Actually.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

She did make it, and then she was immediately deported back to southern Mexico.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

How about Rose?

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

They say the Bolivian girl who came all on her own, found a family along the trail, only to be separated from them again. I haven't heard from her in a year. Universally, they're happy to hear about Kim and Primrose. They're glad to hear that someone made it, that somebody can make it because of the more than a hundred pages I tore out of my notebook with my phone number. They are two of the three people who let me know they made it here. So let's hear from Primrose about what it looks like to make it here, how it feels to have the best outcome of anyone I met. Let's pick up at Lahas Blancas, the now shuttered migrant reception center where hundreds languish for weeks and months trying to get together the money to pay for a bus to the Panama Costa Rica border.

[Primrose]

I think I spent seven days in Panama.

Was short with money, so I went to immigration, trying to ask them if they can help me to take a bus to Costa Rica, of which they refused. They said, no, you have to pay your $60, you and your daughter. Which one? 20. Yeah. So I paid that. So I asked people, man.

People I know, they helped me with money. So from Panama, we took a bus from Panama to Korea. Costa Rica.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

This is a very common story. People borrow money from a huge range of friends and relatives along the way.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

They hope to get to the us.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Work hard and be able to pay it back. The whole process takes every penny they've earned in their life and generates significant amounts of debt. In most cases, this is made worse by the fact that on arrival, they will wait months, if not years for a work permit. And their immigration judge can stop the clock on this at any time for any reason. Primrose and Kim's case, Costa Rica moved them through its territory quickly, as they do with nearly all migrants. Next, they arrived in Nicaragua.

[Primrose]

Yeah, to Nicaragua. Then in Nicaragua, I think we walk from Costa Rica border to Nicaragua. Border. Then we walk again. I think it was eight hours walk from. Yeah, to Nicaragua bus terminus. We just walk. Then we, when we reached there, we paid again to Honduras. Then there's a. Also place we walked from Honduras. From Nicaragua to Honduras. Bus Terminas. I think this was a whole day.

Then from Honduras, Guatemala. Yeah, in Guatemala we spent three days again because it was tough. Guatemala people, they really need asking for a lot of money.

So my life was like asking people, asking people.

Until we get. Until we reach Mexico.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Then, exhausted and broke, she and Kim made it to Mexico. Their journey began in Zimbabwe and took them from there to South Africa, then to Brazil and across the continent. Now they had just one more country to go before they made it. But as they were to find out, this one country is the one that so many migrants don't make it out of.

[Primrose]

Then in Mexico my life was like ended.

Because they were charging a lot of money in Mexico. In fact, when we reach Mexico, we reach Tapachula, not before. Tapachula, I just forget the name. So they took us in the bush where we paid money again. When we paid money, they start searching us. If we don't have cars, then they walk with us. It was 12 midnight. They walk with us till they get a transport to take us to Tapachula. So when I reached Tapachula, I, you know, people, we were giving information to each other. So I was also following other people like from Cameroons and Venezuela. So when we reached Tabachula, we reached Tabachala on 3 October 2024.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Tapachula, in the south of Mexico is where thousands of migrants end up. The Mexican government at the time had a policy of trying to keep people there and began offering them free bus rides north. They had a CBP1 appointment. But unlike places like Tijuana, where there have been migrants gathered for many decades, there are not as many services in Tapachula. And the shelters and services that exist there are overwhelmed by the demand. The volume of migrants and the relative absence of services leaves a space open for abuse. That's what happened to Primrose and Kimberly. They ended up paying someone who they thought could help them navigate the complicated and convoluted system of registration in Mexico, the CBP1 app, and then traveling north to the USA and ultimately being able to make their asylum claim. Finally, in the end, what they got was the opposite of help.

[Primrose]

Then the agents charged us 4000 each, which is me 4000 and my daughter 4000 of which I was, I wasn't left that month.

Other people, they Were paying.

So I just talked to the agent. Then I said, no, can you please go down a little bit? Because I'm a single parent and I don't have anyone to help me with that kind of money. Then he said, okay, 3.5. So I started asking people.

The people I know, maybe they can help me. So I have a lady who helped me with the money, which is. She gave me 4,000. Yeah.

Then my mom sell my land. I was having a land which she sell, which less money. Then she sell even also his stuff to get another man to complete 7,000. So we asked someone to send it to America because in Mexico they don't receive money from Africa. So I find someone here in America to receive the money. So he sent it to me in Mexico. But when I paid the man.

The agent took me. He said, I'm going to take you. So he sent the guys, which they were four Mexicans guys. So they come to fetch us. We were six, seven. Yeah. I don't even know where they took us. So they took us to the. To the bush. Which is Guajara dala? I can't even remember, is it Guajara dala? I. Yeah, I think so. I spend there from October up to January.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

In the background here, you'll hear splashing. That's Kim playing in the pool. A little apartment complex where they were living in east la. As is common for migrants to share the flat with someone else. It didn't have much in the way of furniture. But the last time I saw Primrose and Kim, it was by the Tuquesa river in Las Blancas. There, the brown water was something to be afraid of. Migrants died crossing the river every day, Swept away by the fast moving water and relying only on strangers to hold them as the current tried to pull them in. The few times I walked out into that river, I felt the tug of the current on my boots and wondered what it must be like higher up in the mountains.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

At six foot three, the river I.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Crossed never came above waist high. It's deeper higher up. But even then, reaching out my hand to carry someone's bag or grab a child's hand as they came from the other direction and struggled to keep their toddlers and their few positions out the current.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

I get little jolts of fear when.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

I stepped on a wet rock. Here's Primrose talking about that part of her journey.

[Primrose]

How was it.

My daughter? She was strong. She was strong, but she was crying also. But she got wounds all over the body. Even me, I was crying Myself, I was like, I want to just put myself in the water. Then I can just go both. The gene was tough, really, really tough. The mountain, the stones, the river. It's not easy at all. It's not. It's not very. I don't even recommend someone to say, use daring. No. And even myself, I did know about it. Yeah, I was regretting myself. I was crying. I was like, God, I don't know my family, and my family, they don't know where I am right now.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Back in Los Angeles, Primrose told me that she'd fallen in the river, and two Venezuelan men had jumped in to pull her and Kim out. Total strangers on their own journey had risked their lives to help a woman and child who they didn't know, with whom they couldn't even speak. The river kills people who drink it, too. The concentration of human waste and human remains in the water makes it incredibly dangerous to drink, even for people dying of thirst.

I couldn't stop thinking of that river and how much it scared people. I'm feeling so grateful that Kimberly could still enjoy the water after all of that. Next time, I said they could take the train down to San Diego and we could all go to the beach.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Let's go back to Mexico now, to.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Guadalajara, where many migrants told me that of all the things they had endured, including the jungle, things were the worst of all. Primrose's arrival in Mexico had not been great. And having paid one person, she was now being held by another group and asked for yet more money.

[Primrose]

They were kidnapping me. They were asking for $15,000 each. They said, we are not going to take you.

And I was crying. Kim, she was also crying.

The other people, they will get money paid and leave, I think, from my group. For the people they were kidnapping, it was only me left. And they came and I was crying. Depression.

I think. In November, I tried.

Escape, run away. I fell down, and my leg was something else. I didn't even go to hospital. My leg was swollen, and the way they would treat us, it was bad.

Especially when I came. The other one wanted to touching me, the whole body, like. I was like, please, if you want to do something, you can do it to me. And plus, don't do it in front of my daughter because she was also crying. Disturbing. I didn't even go to hospital. I asked them to go to hospital. They refused.

Yeah, James, I'm too emotional. I'm sorry. Cause.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Primrose understandably had trouble even recounting this story. It's not the sort of Memory that's easy to share. But just when things seemed to be beyond repair and when it seemed like there was nothing to hope for, it was Kimberly who came through to help her mum.

[Primrose]

Yeah, then.

So Kimberly was, like, learning Spanish, so she was understanding some of the words. So she just telling me, there's a guy also was like, why can't you leave this woman? Because she doesn't have money.

Because those people, they took my phone. They even break it in front of my eyes, the phone. I was yelling from Africa.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Kim's Spanish was pretty good by the time I met them in Los Angeles this summer. We went out for dinner and I.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Asked Kim what she'd like to eat.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

She said she wanted to try seafood.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

And practice her Spanish.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

So we went to a Mexican seafood place, complete with cabana decor, taxidermy fish on the wall, and the waitress kindly helped Kim order in Spanish, patiently showing her different menu items and smiling as Kim read them off. It was a happy moment for me and one I didn't think I'd ever be having when I moved here in the Bush era. But that part of Southern California has always been a welcoming place for me. When I was in my 20s and racing bikes for a living, I'd fly into LAX and often end up spending the night at Union Station or Elvera street before taking a train to San Diego. I speak Spanish and I always felt like the people I met there were such a better reflection of LA than the portrayal we see of it in the media now, a decade and a half later, sitting in a Mexican restaurant while a lady from Nayarit helped a little girl from Zimbabwe speak Spanish, it felt like a little glimpse of the way we're told things are here and the way they can be in working class communities. A nation built by migrants, yes, on stolen land, but one that nonetheless welcomed people who needed help and took the time to help them. Sadly, not everyone was helpful on Kim and Primrose's journey. And when her captors realized she had no money to pay them, they eventually just decided to let her go.

[Primrose]

Then I think on January 7th or 5th, I don't remember, then they just took us. Then they just dumped us.

I don't even know. Then after I saw an immigration, immigration officer with the guy with the car, then I stop him, then I translate to ask him to. Then they said, okay, get inside the car. They took us to.

Immigration. So we get a pass from there.

To another town. Because I was like, shifting, shifting, shifting, asking to. I get to Joanna. But those guys, before they they told me like wherever you go, even if you are here near in Mexico, we put a tracker for you. So if you tell anyone, if we find we are going to kill you. So me I was scared. Yeah I was scared. So I didn't tell even the immigration officer. Yeah, yeah till I get to Tijuana. So I, we get Tijuana on the 20th of January.

So I just asked the Mexicans people then there's a guy also said okay, I will try to help you but you need to pay.

Then I said I don't have money. I said if you don't have money we can't help you. So I was like only asking people, asking every people to help me and the other people they were just helping me was I said people look where I am with my daughter, I'm far. But my family, the other family, especially my.

My other family member, they don't even know where I am.

So those guys from Tijuana, they said guys, if you are not crossing today, you are not going to cross because look, the President said he's going to shut down all the borders.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

In between November and January, non. Stop. Rumors circulated in giant WhatsApp groups. Trump was closing the border, Biden was opening it. Most migrants didn't have the means to get to the southern border even if they tried. CBP1 remained mostly useless and people spent days, weeks, months refreshing it to no availability. Those who did get appointments would find them cancelled once a new administration came into office. Their reward for doing things in the.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

So called right way was to be.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Left with no options in a country where they were anything but safe and far from home. Mostly my friends from the jungle have retained their incredibly good humour. Denneth Whalen friends video caught me once when I was on a hike. They started laughing at me, sweating, going uphill and paused a conversation to shout encouragement for a while. A year after I left the jungle, I would still be more than happy to welcome these people as my neighbors. But it seems unlikely I ever will. Border crossings have dropped dramatically. They are not, as the administration sometimes claims, zero. But they are lower. People die crossing the border. Still, sometimes the volunteers you've heard in my last series have to hike miles into the desert and sift through sand and rocks to search for their remains once nature scatters them like leaves blowing around the canyons. Sometimes I'm there with them. Sometimes we haul wooden crosses up mountains that don't have names on the map to mark the places where people's dreams died. Those people don't get A viral video or a story in the New York Times. Because even at a time where people are more engaged than they ever have been in my lifetime in advocacy for migrants, there's still not much attention paid to the actual border that every single migrant has to cross.

Tomorrow that's what we're going to talk about. Let's hear from Primrose about how that same day, January 20th, went for her.

[Primrose]

Then they took us to the boat to the border but we couldn't get in because the gates were. They were closed. Then they said no, we have options, we need to take you. But you know, for me I had to take a risk because I was scared to stay in Mexico.

So they took us with under the bridge, I think the sewage. We were walking with our stomach like under the bridge.

Till we get to USA and Mexican border. So they put ladder for us to help us to. But we paid them 350. 350.

They charge. I found the other people. They also. We were 15. Yeah, we were 15.

Yeah. Then they helped us to jump.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

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[Matt]

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[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

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[Matt]

Day it was built 50 years ago.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

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[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

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[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

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[Matt]

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[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

For the ones who get it done. If you're a maintenance supervisor for a.

[Matt]

Commercial property, you've had to deal with everything from leaky faucets to flickering light bulbs.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

But nothing's worse than that ancient boiler that's lived in the building since the.

[Matt]

Day it was built 50 years ago.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

It's enough to make anyone lose their cool.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

That's where Grainger comes in. With industrial grade products and dependable, fast delivery, Grainger can help with any challenge.

[Matt]

From worn out components to everyday necessities. Call clickgrainger.com or just stop by Granger.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

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[Mia Wong]

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[Matt]

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[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

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[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

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[Mia Wong]

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[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

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[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

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[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

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[Garrison Davis]

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[Primrose]

Some of us are illegal and some.

[Matt]

Are not wanted Our work contracts out.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

And we have to move on 600.

[Matt]

Miles to that Mexico border They chase.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Us like outlaws and rustlers like thieves.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Goodbye to my one Goodbye Rosalina.

[Primrose]

Adios amigos.

[Anouk (Nepalese migrant)]

Peso San Maria.

[Matt]

You won't have a name when you.

[Primrose]

Ride the big airplane and all they will call you will be deportee.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

On the 28th day of January 1948, a plane took off from Oakland, California. On board with a crew, an Immigration Nationalization service officer, and 28 people who had come to the US to work in the Bracero program. They were being sent to El Centro, where they were to be deported to Mexico. The pilot, Frankie Atkinson, had found a job flying DC3s as a civilian after flying the legendarily dangerous hump route between India and China in the Second World War. His wife, Bobby, herself the daughter of a migrant mother, was filling in that day as the usual flight attendants weren't available. On board were 28 passengers, all headed back to Mexico after the United States, where they come to work, had decided it didn't need or want them any longer. The plane never landed in El Centro. It was overdue for maintenance, and its left engine caught fire. Then its wing ripped off. Above Coalinga, not so far from the fields where many of them had worked for year after year, the passengers were pulled out of the plane and into the sky. Most of them had never flown before. They must have been nervous before they took off, and now their worst fears were coming true. And those who survived the loss of pressure and being ripped from the cabin, in some cases still strapped to their seats, must have had their very worst fears confirmed as they plummeted toward the ground that had only stopped being part of Mexico 100 years and four days before. Their Bodies, or parts of them were scattered through the canyon as the plane slammed into the ground. There weren't enough seats for all the passengers and so three of them were forced to sit on their luggage at the back. The plane was over its maximum weight capacity and that might have been why the white smoke began pouring out of its left engine over Coalinga. Frankie, the pilot, had survived crashes in his time in the Air Force, so hopefully he was able to keep his passengers and crew calm until the engine burst into flame. Some witnesses reported seeing people jump from the plane after its left wing tore off and began to plummet towards the ground. But it's just as likely that they were pulled out. The plane hit the ground about a mile east of Fresno County Industrial Road camp where incarcerated people were being forced to work. Inmates were immediately dispatched to comb the hills for remains of people aboard the plane. Locals like Red Childers, whose rancher plane crashed on, rushed up there to join them and they hoped to help the survivors. On finding none, they began to fight the fire. Around the wreckage, prisoners found luggage, women's shoes and babies clothes. Then bodies, some of them still in their seats, littered throughout the canyon. Only 16 sets of remains were ever identified, including the entire crew and the INS guard. Bobby, identified by her engagement ring, was pregnant at the time. She was buried with Frankie in New York. Frankie's co pilot, Martin Ewing, was buried with military honours. Frank Chaffin, the INS agent, was buried back in Berkeley. The remains of the 28 deportees, or whatever had been found of them, were buried en masse in Holy Cross Cemetery in Fresno. Hundreds of local Latino people, most of whom didn't know them, turned up towards the 28 coffins, some of which were empty, being turred in the 84 foot hole in the ground that was reserved for them. The hole was covered with dirt and eventually with grass. And there they remained, without names, without their families being told, for three quarters of a century. The next day the New York Times reported on the story. The worst aviation accident in California history. The names, ages and hometowns of the crew and the INS agent were given along with, quote, 28 Mexican agricultural workers. Their lives apparently were unremarkable and even in death they didn't deserve the dignity of being mentioned by name. Like people, it's a story that 80 years later is only too familiar. The song we open this episode with is written by an American anti fascist folk musician named Woody Guthrie. Like many of his songs, it's a protest song. It recalls the plane wreck.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

There's one home recording of him singing it to a tune that isn't used to sing the song today. It was only uncovered a few months ago.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Guthrie was moved to write it when he noticed that in the reporting on the crash, none of the migrants who were being deported on the plane were named. He wrote the song as a poem because at the time, his Huntington's career had made it hard for him to sing and strum the guitar. Later, a student at Colorado A and M named Marty Hoffman set the poem to a Mexican ranchera melody. It didn't become popular as a song until Guthrie's friend Pete Seeger began performing it at concerts. Hoffman had played it to him when Seeger had visited the campus ballad club. Guthrie, whose guitar famously carried the slogan, this machine kills fascists, was in declining health by the time he wrote the poem in 1948, and he never lived to hear it sung. Hoffman, who died by suicide in Red Rock, Arizona, where he was teaching on the Navajo reservation, died right as Joan Baez was recording the song in the studio today. It's one of Guthrie's best known works. Of course, when he wrote the song to his disgust, Guthrie didn't know the names of the people on the plane. He imagines them in his poem as Juan Maria, Rosalita, the sort of people he might meet on any given day as a touring musician who was fondly received by working people wherever he went. I know a Juan, a Maria and a rose from the Darien Gap. I've also searched in the hills and the mountains for the remains of people whose names I don't know 80 years later. So the song resonates with me.

[Sophie Lichterman]

My father's own father he waited that river.

[Anouk (Nepalese migrant)]

Others before him have done just the same.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

They died in the hills and they died in the valley. Some went to heaven without any name.

Goodbye to my one Goodbye, Ruby.

You.

[Primrose]

Won'T have a name when you ride the big airplane.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

All they will call you will be B14.

The 25 men and three women aboard came to the US to fill labor shortages after World War II as a result of an agreement between the two states called the Bracero Program. The Mexican government didn't want to lose its whole agricultural workforce and wanted to ensure that workers in the US would send a portion of their wages home. So it held these wages in accounts which some of them never saw again. For years, the Mexican government refused to extend the program to Texas because of racist violence there. People who entered the program waited months, and when they crossed the border, they were subject to abusive searches, spraying with ddt, and in some Places Zyklon B. Same gas used in the gas chambers. The Holocaust was used to hose down their clothes when they got to the US Many of them worked in very poor conditions. Many chose not to wait and instead crossed without papers. Some farmers hired them for much less than the minimum Bracero program wage and put them to work in worse conditions than the program permitted. Others worked their allotted contracts in the program, and they stayed, hoping to make a better life in the USA or to earn some money they could keep before they went home. Many of them came and went several times returning home until the need to make more money overwhelmed the desire to remain and work their parcels across Mexico. The Mexican government wanted those who travel without a contract to be barred from being hired. And in many cases, government officials in Mexico accepted bribes to allow workers to enter the program just as it is today. Everyone made money apart from the migrants. Bracero's letters were censored to prevent them asking their families to join them. But nonetheless, a racist panic about undocumented migration began, especially after Frankie and thousands of others returned from the war and the manpower shortage was not so acute. This, combined with demands from the Mexican government, led to Eisenhower eventually adopting a program whose name is a Slurpee, to catch, detain and deport Mexican people to parts of their birth country they'd never been to, far from the border, far from their families and communities. The operation, which focused on rapid deportations and border regions, is often cited as an inspiration for today's border regime. 76 years after Guthrie wrote his song, very little has changed in the way the legacy media covers migration. Maybe that's why everyone from Dolly Parton to Bob Dylan to Kris Kristofferson, Waylon Jellings, Johnny Cash, Willie Nelson and Bruce Springsteen has sung a version of this song. Here's Johnny Cash describing the song before a TV performance.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Johnny Cash, I understand this is a true story.

[Primrose]

It's from our album the Highwayman. Johnny Rodriguez was on that album as well. On this song. Yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Understand it is a true story.

[Primrose]

Woody Guthrie wrote this about a plane.

[Matt]

Crash in Los Gatos Canyon, taking a plane load of Mexicans back after the war for whatever they could get in this country.

[Primrose]

It's one of those old stories about maltreatment of aliens.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

One of those old stories.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

He says.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

It seems so hopeful in 1987, like we wouldn't be writing anymore because most people could accept that nobody should treat other people like that. Anyway, that was before country music was entirely dominated by bootlickers. And here I am playing it here again. 80 years after it was written, because it is still relevant, here's Dolly Parton singing it.

[Primrose]

My father's own father he waded that river they took all the money he.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Made in his life.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

My brothers and.

[Primrose]

Sisters come working fruit trees and they.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Rode the truck till they took down.

[Garrison Davis]

The high.

[Primrose]

The airplane caught fire over Los Gatos Canyon A fireball of lightning.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

That shook all that he.

Who are these dear friends all scattered like dry.

[Primrose]

Leaves the radio said they were just deportees.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Goodbye to my one Goodbye, Rosalita.

[Primrose]

Adios, mes amigos.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Jesus, as the song puts it, the bodies of the workers were scattered like dry leaves across Los Gatos Canyon. The bodies of those 28 people, the parts that were recovered, were buried in a mass grave at the Holy Cross Cemetery in Fresno, marked later thanks to a donation with a small plaque calling them Mexican nationals, although one of them was also Spanish. The hard work of finding these people's names was taken up by people not even alive when that plane crashed. Many of their relatives did not even know they were buried there until Carlos Razcon, the Fresno Diocese Director of Cemeteries, and Tim Hernandez, an author and professor at UT El Paso, dedicated themselves to naming them. In 2013, a new headstone was erected with their names in a ceremony which packed the cemetery. Hernandez had found, after years of hard work by locating one of their nephews, a copy of El Faro, a local Spanish language newspaper which provided a list that was more accurate than that in the Fresno County Records Department. It wasn't until September 28, 2024, when I just left Primrose and Kimberley in Las Blancas, that a proper memorial was built for them in the canyon. Families traveled from across the US And Mexico to open the memorial. Some of them were funded by Woody Guthrie's grandchildren. The names of all 28 of them were included. They were Miguel Negrete Alvarez, Francisco Llamas Duran, Santiago Garcia Elizondo Rosalio Padilla Estrada, Bernabe Lopez Garcia, Ramon Paredes Gonzalez, Tomas Avigna de Gracia, Salvador Sandoval Hernandez, Guadalupe Ramirez, Lara, Severo Medina Lara, Elias Trujillo Macias Jose Rodriguez Macias, Tomas Padilla Marquez, Luis Lopez Medina, Manuel Calderon Marino, Luis Cuevas Miranda, Martin Razo Navarro, Ignacio Perez Navarro, Roman Ochoa Ochoa Apollonio Ramirez, Plasencia, Alberto, Carlos Regoza, Guadalupe Hernandez Rodriguez, Maria Santana Rodriguez, Juan Valenzuela Ruiz, Wenceslau Flores Ruiz, Jose Valdivia Sanchez, Jesus Mesa Santos Baldomero, Marcus Torres, Francis C. Atkinson, Lillian K. Atkinson, Marion H. Ewing and Frank E. Chaffin.

I think about this song an awful lot. The first time I heard it was in a CD compilation of Spanish anarchist songs. The fundamental decency of giving the deceased a name, treating them like people and not human waste, seems so basic. And yet, three quarters of a century later, reporting hasn't got any better. A few times in my years at the border, I've searched for people and the remains of people whose names I don't know, just as some of my friends have erected little wooden crosses, some with names and some without, to people who we never got to meet but somehow still grieve. There are lots of people whose names and faces I do know who never made it to the usa. They didn't even get an anonymous story. The people who die for the American dream are totally ignored in the coverage of migration. The real cost of our border externalization. Little children and loving parents who have to die so politicians of either party can brag about secure borders are completely invisible to most people in this country. 77 years less 1 week after the Times published its story which erased people killed in the Los Gatos Cana, it published a video. The video shows Primrose lying on the floor in agony. She climbed the wall on the ladder and then fell into the usa. On landing, she broke her leg. The story, just like that story in 1948, doesn't name her or Kim. It refers to a group of migrants and calls Primrose one woman. To be fair, the piece did interview other migrants, but as is often the case, and migrants from Africa get the worst treatment of all. The piece and the hundreds of other social media posts of the video from other outlets don't tell readers about the persecution and torture Primrose face to home about the fact she doesn't know where her father disappeared to and that her whole family is in hiding. It doesn't bother to mention that she and Kim walked for six months to get to the border, that they were kidnapped, robbed and traumatized on their way. It doesn't even give their names. Unlike the people who died in Los Gatos Canyon. Primrose is here to tell us how it feels to see her pain turned into page views by outlets with huge global platforms.

[Primrose]

Yeah, that video. To be honest, even now I feel.

It'S embarrassing me because when I was in Texas, like if I met people, they said, are you not the one who fell down? For me, it's like something else because I was not happy for the person who put me in social media. Even if when I go to the comments, some of the comments were bad and the other people, they don't even know what was really happening to me. I was running for my life. But people, they just comment whatever they want. So.

That video, even now, I'm not even happy. Yes, I know people, they make money with my video. Maybe he was supposed. The person who posted me was supposed maybe to close my face or to do something. And a lot of people, they even don't know where I am. But because of that video, it went viral. Even in my country, people, they were sending messages.

That's why the other people, they went to my mom and started tortured here because they thought maybe I'm in country. But because of that video, they went to disturb my mom. She's not even. Where I grew up now, in rural. She just moved. She's somewhere else now.

So I don't even know who posted the video. And.

I think I need to. I don't know what can I say, but.

I'm very angry with the person who posted the video. Maybe they should maybe ask me or to find me or to hide my face. And where's Kimberly? She was there. My daughter. When you ask her about the video, she cries, to be honest.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Just like those people who died in the plane crash. Primrose deserves better. I first saw the video of her falling on TikTok. I think I feel like it was shared by the Wall Street Journal. But I haven't been able to locate the post again, where I saw a friend, someone else saw a way to make a buck. It's a kind of extractive reporting that I've spent my whole career trying not to replicate. The Times and plenty of other outlets have what they see as high standards of journalistic objectivity. I don't think it'll surprise anyone that I fall afoul of those, which is fine. I don't want to be trying to find the middle ground between someone running for her life and someone trying to make money from her misery. Nonetheless, we have to live in a world where the vast majority of people get their information from outlets who see migrants as stories and a political issue, not as people. We have to live with the consequences of that. We're seeing them all now, every day. This isn't a story about the New York Times. A long time ago, I realized my career wasn't going the direction that was going to put me on the masthead of those big newspapers because I care about people like Primrose and Kimberley and not about big newspapers. This is a story about Primrose and Kimberly. So let's hear why they Left Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe, if you don't know, has been ruled by the same party since 1980, the Zanu PF. The Zanu PF has been led for three decades by Robert Mugabe. It has been the only party to hold the presidency since independence. The office has only changed hands once when Mugabe's former VP replaced him after Mugabe resigned under threat of impeachment and a coup. The opposition has taken different forms over time, but never managed to dislodge one party rule. When it has got close, it has been met with extreme violence. Something Primrose knows only too well.

[Primrose]

It's not like we just. It's a luxury to come to come to America for beggars in. If I wanted to come to America for bigger I would maybe go and apply for the visa. But us as.

Youth people who wants to change our country, they don't even.

Make you to find a way to go to make a visa. Because Zimbabwe is a tough country, especially for us young people, young generation.

They can even kill you in Zimbabwe. We can't even protesting for our rights in Zimbabwe because we scared for the government who is running the country now, which is npf. We are really scared. I have people, a lot of people. I lose a lot of friends.

Kidnapped, killed me also in Zimbabwe. They even tortured me, wanted to kill me.

So that's why even I don't even know where he's.

Kimball's father since 2017. I don't even know where he is. Maybe he's dead or he's not even dead. I don't even know where he is because he also ran away. Even now, as I'm speaking right now, I'm stressed like I don't even know where is my father. Yeah, I don't even know. Which is also it just so our governments, our Zimbabwe, it's really tough for us. Yeah, they don't give us time or they don't give us as a young generation. They think themselves and they are their families and the economy. There's no job. Even if you go to school, there's no jobs. There's a lot of graduate people.

Staying home. They are vendors, workers, no jobs, nothing. If you want to stay indentured for your rights, they tortured you, killed you, disappear. There's a lot of people who disappear in Zimbabwe just because you need to change.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Under Mugabe, Zimbabwe experienced rapid economic decline and hyperinflation. At various times, Mugabe has blended some former colonial powers, which is reasonable and a quote gay mafia, which is what you get when you have a Single.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Man in charge of your state, ruling by whim.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

From the moment of liberation until just two years before his death. Frame Rose, like many in her country, like many people from all over the world, wanted a better future. It was something she and her family had advocated for. Having seen people she loved disappear, never knowing if they were alive or dead, never even getting the closure of a funeral, she decided she couldn't risk leaving Kimberley alone. And so she took her daughter and fled. They fled to South Africa, but violence followed them there.

[Primrose]

Especially in South Africa. People are killed with xenophobia. People are killed, you know, so it's not also even safe for us to stay in South Africa. That's why.

Especially me. To be honest, the general was not even planned. I was just asking people. And when I reached Brazil, people, they were just talking. Let's go, let's go, let's go. I was also following those people.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah.

[Primrose]

Till I get here. So it's not like we came here for luxury or for what.

For me, I just came here for my life. I just ran for my life. I just need my life and my daughter's life. Because if I die today, I don't have anybody can look after my daughter. Especially even in my country, because things are tough for my mom because my father just disappeared.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

While people can't easily travel around the world, concepts like xenophobia, bigotry, sexism, homophobia, they're not just American issues, they're global issues. And that's why we say nobody's free until everybody's free.

[Primrose]

We just grew up in a.

Poor family soil. But it's tough. To be honest, it's really tough for me. I'm not even 100% okay. I still have lots of memories, Stress. Yeah.

And I remember one of my friends, her name was memory. She died also.

We were together in Zimbabwe when they kidnaped us for five days.

So she just died. It was 20. 20. 2020. She just died.

Because we were fighting for our future. Yeah. But.

It'S tough. Yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Here's me talking to Primrose on that riverbank in Bajajuquito about why she left South Africa.

[Primrose]

I'm just trying. No, it's only me and my daughter.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah. Was it hard to see a future for her there?

[Primrose]

It's very hard.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah. So explain the situation there.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Hola. Why not?

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Hola.

[Primrose]

The situation we're in. Where?

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

In Zimbabwe?

[Primrose]

The situation. For me, it was tough. I just ran away to South Africa, and South Africa was not safe. Xenophobia. And they almost kill me and my boyfriend and even my. My baby father was abusive to have too much because of the politics.

I'm an opposition party, so it was.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Difficult for me to live. Yeah.

[Primrose]

Even in South Africa, I was not safe at all. Was those people. They were like, following me and my daughter. So I spent three months on the road coming here. I leave South Africa, I think 4th of July till now. I'm in Panama. I'm still working.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

That was September. She finally entered the USA in January, crossing into a very different country than the one she'd set out for. Her story is unique. Every migrant story is, but it's not unusual. If you spend as much time talking to migrants as I do, you will learn a lot about the hardships regular people face all over the world. You'll also learn about the dreams people have and how little they really differ. Let's take, for example, the protests we recently saw in Nepal. Those didn't come as a huge shock because I've met dozens of Nepalese political opposition members. Here's one I spoke to as we sheltered in the porch of Nembera House in Bajo Chiquito in a rainstorm last September. The little room was filled with sleeping pads and tired bodies. I spent a lot of time there, sitting on the floor, talking to people. Anouk's story is one of many I heard just in that one room from all over the world.

[Anouk (Nepalese migrant)]

Because it's not safe in my country. That's why I want to go to the States, because there is right and freedom.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah. What makes it not safe in your country?

[Anouk (Nepalese migrant)]

There are many political reasons. And I am from a different political like called Congress.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Okay.

[Anouk (Nepalese migrant)]

I am from Congress, just a small member, not a big one still man. But the opposition party, you know.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

They.

[Anouk (Nepalese migrant)]

Won the constitution, so.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah. So they kick you out.

[Primrose]

Yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Okay.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

If you're wondering how someone comes from the mountains of Nepal to a small village in the Panamanian jungle and to be briefly sharing a tiny room with people from Venezuela, Cameroon, China and Bolivia, all seeking the same thing. Here's how.

[Anouk (Nepalese migrant)]

I took a plane from Nepal to Dubai. Stayed there two months. Then after that.

I went to Qatar.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Qatar? Yeah.

[Anouk (Nepalese migrant)]

From Qatar, I went to Brazil. I stayed in refugee camp for at least two weeks.

Then after that, I came out from Brazil, took a bus, then traveled for too much.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Long time.

[Anouk (Nepalese migrant)]

Maybe 24 hours or 25 hours.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Wow.

[Anouk (Nepalese migrant)]

Then I went to. I caught up some friends. They took me to Bolivia. We need to cross through jungle, but it was small, not a long way. It was good. And after Bolivia, I took the ride to Bus?

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah.

[Anouk (Nepalese migrant)]

I took at least maybe 48 hours in a bus.

[Matt]

Wow.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Man.

[Anouk (Nepalese migrant)]

Then I went to the border of Peru and there was some boat to take us across.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah.

[Anouk (Nepalese migrant)]

And I went across to Peru, Stayed in a hotel.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Anouk (Nepalese migrant)]

At that night. Then after that, came out and again rode the bus for 26 hours to Lima. Then after Lima, again 26 hours to Tulkan. Then after. After Tulkan, I got a taxi. And that taxi was to cross the border to Ecuador.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Okay.

[Anouk (Nepalese migrant)]

And so I went to Ecada in the taxi and they kept us in hotel. Stayed for two, two, three hours in hotel.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah.

[Anouk (Nepalese migrant)]

Then at night, again traveling.

[Matt]

Wow.

[Anouk (Nepalese migrant)]

Then again travel to Colombia.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah.

[Anouk (Nepalese migrant)]

After Colombia, rode on another bus and go to Colombia and Panama border.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Okay.

[Anouk (Nepalese migrant)]

To Nicoli. Yeah, Nicoli. To Nicoli. And stayed maybe one week in Nicoli. After that I took a boat.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Anouk (Nepalese migrant)]

To Kapur, Ghana. From Kapur, Ghana, there was some bikes. A bike took us to a camp at the border.

At the camp I reached nearly at 6pm Then after some people came there and they were responsible to cross the border to Panama.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah.

[Anouk (Nepalese migrant)]

Then we walked to. At 9pm we walked through. Maybe.

We walked to.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Till here.

[Anouk (Nepalese migrant)]

44 hours.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Wow.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

I asked Anouk what he had to say to people in America because he had excellent English and I have this platform to share. He was more than aware of the US discourse around migrants, and he said he'd been watching videos about it.

[Anouk (Nepalese migrant)]

Well, everyone is human being.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah.

[Anouk (Nepalese migrant)]

Of course we have some problems. So we need to leave our country, right?

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Yeah. And to be kind to each other.

[Anouk (Nepalese migrant)]

We need to be kind.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

I haven't heard from Anouk since then. I have no idea where he and his friends are or how the journey across three continents ended. Like so many other migrants, he disappeared. For me, in the mass of humanity heading north. I still think about all the people I haven't heard from. Sometimes I'll see people who look like them and I'll get excited. But if they're in the USA now, they're probably afraid of going out much. They came all this way, they risked their lives, they saw people die. And now once again, they're hiding from men in masks with guns. Here's Rose, a young woman from Bolivia. Think about Rose a lot. She was a young mum traveling alone, trying to find a better future for her family and risking her life in the process. She seemed young and happy most of the time, but she had a sort of tiredness in her eyes that really stayed with me. After several conversations we had in Bajo Chiquito, I don't really know why. It just seemed so sad that she was away from her kids and that someone who so obviously was predisposed to joy looked so tired and sad all on her own there. It felt like her only chance at a better future. She was very open about how hard it all was. I remember one day when I didn't feel like recording, just sitting on the side of the raised walkway in Bajajiquito with her feet in the hot, wet mud, watching people walk by, talking with.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Her like I'd talk with any other.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Friend about our homes and our families and the election that was two months away at that point. She was hanging out with a group of Venezuelans then, but they must have been separated because they've asked me about her since. Just like so many other people. I've no idea where she is. It seems so sad to me that we've made a world where a woman who wants a future for her kids has to risk her life, maybe lose it for all I know just to come here and ask for help and then still be denied. And then if she gets here, to be chased, harried and harassed.

[Rose (Bolivian migrant)]

Yes, the situation there in Bolivia right now, we're practically, economically. Well, we're in very bad shape. It's kind of like Venezuela. What motivates me to travel is more than anything, work. Because there you can't work, you can't earn enough, you know, you have to work a lot, but they pay you very little, you know, so there's a lot of. A lot of poverty. So that's what motivates me to keep going to work in another country, to migrate, because I also have a family, I have children. So that's what motivates me to go to another country to work. It's a future for them. Yes, a better future for them, for my children.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

I asked her to share her journey, how it had been just to get to this little wet village that welcomes people in the middle of the jungle.

[Rose (Bolivian migrant)]

We left Friday morning to go to the jungle.

Right. Well, let me explain. Honestly, it's not easy. It's very hard because I've seen quite a few people. There are many pregnant women. There are women with children. There are elderly people. There are adults. There are people who come with crutches. There are people who break bones if their feet fall off the edge.

There are people who faint.

There are quite a lot of people in a difficult situation.

Because you have to climb a hill which takes at least eight hours.

You have to climb.

You have to carry your Backpack your food, your clothes, your supplies, everything you need for the journey. Your water.

So it's very hard, very hard.

And you go up, up. And you arrive at what is the border of Panama with Colombia, which is called the flags.

You get there, and from there you have to go down, down, down. That takes at least another eight hours. You have to go down all day. On Friday, it took us all day. We had to sleep on the side on the edge of a riverbank, more or less. There were about 200 of us, if I'm not mistaken. We are about 200 people. 150. 200 people traveling and sleeping there. We camped. 200 of us. Yes. There are children, there are babies. 2 months old, 1 month old, 3 months old, 1 year old. So there are children, and they are really the ones who suffer the most on this journey. Yes. So that night we slept the next day, which would be Saturday, we came back again at six in the morning. We set off walking all day. We had to climb hills, we had to cross rivers that come up to your shoulders, up to your neck. They really come up. There are quite a few rivers. There's mud. There are mountains. There are those rocks that you slip on and die. There are mountains that you have to climb. Of course, if you don't want to go meet God, you have to climb mountains that are slippery with stones, rocks.

And you keep going like that all.

[Primrose]

Day downriver, walking, walking, walking.

[Rose (Bolivian migrant)]

There are people who got left behind. There are people who came with children. They get stuck, they faint, right? It's very hard, very difficult. And I know that all of us who immigrated here are doing the same thing. We are not bad people. We are good people. We do it for a purpose, which is our family, right? Our children. We need a good economy to support.

[Primrose]

Our family, our children.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

I asked Rose if there was a dream that kept her going.

[Rose (Bolivian migrant)]

Yes, I have a dream to go there because just like everyone else, like every person, I need to get ahead financially, to provide for my children, to get ahead. So my dream has always been to be there. You know, I set that goal for myself before, but I didn't think it would be like that, so difficult. And once you're in there, well, there's nothing you can do but get out, move forward, get out of there.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Because you can't go back, you can't retreat.

[Rose (Bolivian migrant)]

You have to get out. So my dream is that to provide for my children. I have two sons who are waiting for me. I have my family, my dad, my brothers.

So for that reason, we set off to go there. We are still going there.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

The American Dream is such a nebulous concept. Often it's used as a byword for exceptionalism and the idea that the US offers a true meritocracy where hard working people can thrive in the marketplace of ideas. That isn't true. But dreams don't have to be true.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Nor do they have to be that far fetched.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Most people coming to America know they'll work hard in the fields, cleaning homes or maybe as a line cook. Their hands and knees and backs will do the labor that allows for privileged Americans to still believe in their version of the American Dream. The one where millionaires become billionaires. But the chance to work and be paid, to speak and not fear consequences, to be able to feed your kids enough that they grow up healthy and strong. Those are dreams too. They're dreams that people are willing to risk their lives for. Dreams that I've seen them chase up and down mountains in the jungle and in the freezing cold and the baking heats of the deserts and mountains of California. But now even those who achieve their humble dreams are in danger of losing them.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

And tomorrow I want to talk about.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

The end of the American Dream and the beginning of an American Nightmare for millions of migrants who are already here. Every time I hear the various versions that Willie Guthrie song, I think about the friends I made in the jungle who, as the song says, maybe went to heaven without any names. So before I go, I want to share the Hanoami's American Dream one more time. Because I think it's important not to forget what the entire force of the most powerful state in the world has dedicated itself to destroying.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

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[Garrison Davis]

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[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

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[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

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[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

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[Matt]

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[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

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[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

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[Primrose]

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[Garrison Davis]

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[Primrose]

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[Primrose]

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[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

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[Primrose]

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Run a business and not thinking about radio. Think again. Because more people are listening to the radio and iHeart today than they were 20 years ago. And only iHeart broad podcast radio connects with more Americans than TV, digital, social, any other media, even twice as many teens than TikTok.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

And that reach means everything.

[Primrose]

Just think about the universal marketing formula.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

The number of consumers who hear your.

[Primrose]

Message times the response rate equals the results. Now let's get those results growing for your business. Radio's here now more than ever. And iheart's leading the way.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

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[Primrose]

The reach is real. Let us show [e-mail] that's iheartadvertising.com or call 844-844 IHEART one more time. Just call 844-844-IHEART and get radio.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

For Rose, Noemi Primrose and the dozens of other migrants I met in the jungle, the goal was to get here. Some of them had friends they wanted to stay with, but many did not. They just wanted a chance. A chance to work and be paid a fair wage. A chance for their kids to have a dream and a future. A chance to sleep safely at night. Once they got across that line, over that wall or across that river, they wanted to make their case for asylum, to ask for help and someone to keep them safe, to give them an opportunity to build their lives again. But even for the very few who made it, the risks weren't over. Within hours of taking office, Trump had begun signing executive orders that would make life for migrants on the way to the USA and those already here even more difficult.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

To the cheers of the crowd he.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Signed an order that kept TikTok online, pardoned the people who stormed the capital on January 6, 2021 and attempted to rescind birthright citizenship from the children of migrants. He ended CBP1 and with his Sharpie ordered the building of more walls and the resulting death of more people who.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Came here to ask for help.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Within days of Trump taking office, federal agents from ice, the dea, the FBI and other agencies have begun a campaign of made for social media raids. In Colorado, they raided apartment buildings which had played a load bearing role in right wing conspiracies about trend months before at universities. They grabbed young men and women off campus for the crime of opposing genocide. People entering the country were stopped and had their devices searched, not just for evidence of crime, but also for evidence of mocking the President or the Vice president. Trump added various organized crime groups a list of foreign terrorist organizations and attempted to totally ban asylum, including for the people fleeing those very organizations. People who had waited months for an appointment on CBP1 now had their appointment cancelled. They were left totally without hope at risk and with nowhere to go for help. Trump used a border emergency declaration to justify his proclamation and quickly followed up with more military deployments, wall construction and a huge increase in the funding for state surveillance. People still crossed, but their numbers decreased as many of them were quickly deported back to Mexico. Here's Kirsten Zitlau, primers lawyer, explaining the new system.

[Kirsten Zitlau (Primrose's lawyer)]

So there are no new asylum cases. In other words, people who cross at the southern border are now detained only to be removed immediately, basically, or as soon as possible under what's called 212F authority. It's under the Immigration and Nationality Act. Trump has used this authority, which basically broadly says that if the President finds a certain class of immigrants or the entry of immigrants would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, they may by proclamation, you know, suspend all entry of said immigrants. So whereas people used to get credible fear interviews or were paroled into the United States to be allowed to fight an asylum case, none of that is happening anymore. And people are if anything only screened for what's called Convention against Torture screenings to just determine like, hey, are they going to be tortured by their government or with the acquiescence of their government if they return to their home country. But even then they are not allowed to remain in the United States or fight any relief in the United States. That just means that they will be deported to a third country.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

For people inside the usa, the situation wasn't much better. First as a trickle and then As a torrent. We started to see videos of masked unidentified men jumping out of unmarked vehicles to grab people, many of whom were migrants, and detained them. In most cases, these were federal agents from ICE and other federal agencies like the FBI, the atf, and the dea.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Whose offices were detailed to support ice.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

In an increasing number of cases, they were people imitating ICE for migrants, many of whom had fled totalitarian regimes where people were disappeared by the state. They were a reminder of what they'd run away from. The place they had come to be safe started to feel like the place they'd had to leave because it wasn't safe. In Primrose's case, things were a bit different. When Kirsten filed a motion to appear remotely, she got an extremely unusual response.

[Kirsten Zitlau (Primrose's lawyer)]

In ruling on my WebEx motion, I was emailed the order of the judge along with a notice that Primrose should self deport. So judges are sending out these notices with routine other orders. In cases where the immigrant has counsel is fighting their case, it's obvious they're fighting their case.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Kirsten Zitlau (Primrose's lawyer)]

So it's one of the things where you just feel very strongly this administration's influence.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Are they obliged to do that, or is that a choice that the judges made?

[Kirsten Zitlau (Primrose's lawyer)]

No, not at all. It's.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

It's okay.

[Kirsten Zitlau (Primrose's lawyer)]

Not at all. And in fact, it's completely inappropriate. The immigration bar is taking a different approach to it. Some are filing motions to recuse, telling the judges, hey, you need to recuse yourself.

[Sophie Lichterman]

You're.

[Kirsten Zitlau (Primrose's lawyer)]

You're a non neutral judge to send this out in the middle of the case. It's absurd. It's a due process violation. They're entitled to a neutral judge suggest.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

One of the many areas where things are not as they have been. The Trump administration has flouted rules and even court orders and sent migrants to El Salvador's megaprison Secot, a place where torture is routine and where few people have ever left. They attempted to bring criminal charges against migrants to justify their actions and eventually ended up in a prisoner change with the Maduro regime. At the same time, Maduro's government began offering, quote, unquote, humanitarian flights to Venezuelans in Mexico. And some even took to navigating the Darien Gap southwards to return to Colombia, where they thought they might have some chance at a decent life in the usa, a country with more guns and people. Everyone seemed to be holding their breath and worrying that we'd see an increase in lethal violence. But after a few weeks, thankfully, that hadn't happened. But more and more, where ICE Agents showed up.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Local people also showed up.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

They called them all number of things, fascists, cowards, traitors. And then people began to organize, following ICE agents around and announcing their presence, identifying their hotels and making noise outside, picking up neighbours, kids and getting their groceries so people wouldn't need to expose themselves to the risk of arrest. If ICE agents were spotted, people alerted their communities. In cities across the us, people began to form networks to take care of their neighbors. Some of this came from lifelong activists, but much of it did not. People even began using apps normally used for suburban racism, like Nextdoor and Ring to call out the presence of ice. Raids were opposed and ICE agents were shouted at across the country. But they still kept going.

It wasn't until June that we saw the first mass protest. Everyone wondered if we'd be in for another hot summer like 2020. CBP officers had been deployed to LA to conduct a series of loud and once again curated for Instagram raids. Border Patrol's El Centro sector Chief Patrol agent Gregory Bovino, became the face of the operation. Even before Trump had taken office. Just a day after Congress had certified the results of the election, Bavino had sent 65 agents six hours north of the border to push the boundaries of what people would accept. In California's Central Valley, not so far from Los Gatos Canyon, he led Operation Return to Sender, accosting Latino farm workers at convenience stores and on the way to work. Bavino claimed the operation was targeted, but reporting from Calmatters showed CBP had no prior records for 77 of the 78 people it arrested. Bavino, who has bestowed the title of Premier Sector on the part of the border he oversees, has five agents on a team dedicated to producing videos. He likes to praise Eisenhower, whose operation often flew migrants to El Centro before they were sent back to Mexico. The plane which crashed in Los Gatos Canyon was headed there. Bovino has a long history of these raids, dating back to at least 2010 in Las Vegas, and he is very much the face of the new Border Patrol approach. While ICE numbers are growing, CBP still has several times more officers. And indeed, some reporting suggests that ICE officers in some offices might be replaced with CBP personnel. Border Patrol notionally operates within 100 miles of the border, an area which includes all US coastline and the entire shore of the Great Lakes. And even then, this hundred miles is an interpretation and not a hard legal block. This remit covers two thirds of the population and gives them a wide leeway to infringe on the Fourth Amendment. This has been the case for decades, since the Department of Homeland Security was founded after 9 11. But mass protests against CBP has been rare. We've seen it on occasion, but less than you'd think for an agency with such a broad remit in a country that seems so proud of the first 10amendments to the Constitution. In LA, though, people weren't having it. Following a series of violent raids, Border Patrol agents had been met with protest across the city. They'd responded with tear gas, projectile weapons and threats. They'd arrested Dennis Huerta, leader of the Service Employees United International, one of the largest unions in the country, as well as dozens of other Angelenos. They'd shot tear gas out of moving vehicles and launched projectiles into the faces of reporters and bystanders alike. Seeing this, doing what I do, I got on a train to Los Angeles, but with it being Southern California, it took like five hours.

Are they throwing or shooting?

Did you get hit? You okay?

I'm going to that tree on the right, yeah.

After getting off the train in LA and before, I met my friend Charles McBride to work on some coverage together, I walked around Alvera street, grabbed a coffee and spoke to some of the local folks. There were tags all over the walls and windows of the buildings around the train station, but that's always been how.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

LA has expressed itself.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

All I heard from people I met there was support. One man expressed to me that his anxiety made protests very uncomfortable for him, that he was glad to see people standing up. Obviously, crimes against property are something that parts of Los Angeles take very seriously. It's a spiritual home of conspicuous consumption. But in this instance, it seemed everyone I've met either didn't care or was so mad that they didn't care. From mid morning to early the next day, lapd, who are not supposed to assist cbp, but who can enforce state law, chased angry kids around their own city. In skid row in downtown la, tear gas flooded the streets and so did young people from across town. In between the tear gas and pepperballs, I managed to talk to a few of them. Their stories were similar. They were those kids whose better futures had brought their parents here. They were citizens raised in the USA to believe in the right to free speech and assembly, something they were now using to make their voices heard.

[Anouk (Nepalese migrant)]

I mean, my family, they're, you know, susceptible to all the ice raids and stuff like that.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

And, you know, being a citizen here.

[Sophie Lichterman]

I feel like it's my duty to.

[Anouk (Nepalese migrant)]

Come out here and, you know, speak out, you know, for those who can.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

It made me think of Primrose and Kimberley and the future they might both have. I sincerely hoped that one day Kimberly and every other kid I met in the jungle would feel brave enough to be out here and despite everything, be strong enough to stand up against state violence. Unbeknownst to me, Primrose and Kim weren't that far away. They had a check in with ICE at the DTLA Federal Building that day, and as they rode by in a bus past a protesting crowd, Kim said to her mum, look, it's Uncle James. Her mom, of course, told her it couldn't have been. But she was right. It was. After nine months of only speaking on the phone, Kimberly somehow recognized me despite me being wrapped up in a helmet.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

And a plate carrier.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

When they first arrived, they went to stay with someone they knew in Texas. I planned to go and visit them there and accompany them to their court hearings. At this point, ICE agents had already begun snatching people in the corridors of courthouses after the government withdrew their cases and placed them in expedited removal proceedings, which meant mandatory detention. There's not much any of us can do about this, but I didn't want them to be alone. Then I got Covid and couldn't go. Here's Kirsten explaining how this process works.

[Kirsten Zitlau (Primrose's lawyer)]

So ina section235 applies to people who entered within less than two years. Like you said, they can be then subject to what's called expedited removal. That means that they have to take a credible fear interview and be detained and that they only get to fight a case if they pass their credible fear interview. They do not qualify for an immigration judge bond. So they only get out if ICE lets them out, which of course ICE is letting nobody out. So the, the administration wants to have people detained under this authority, this235 authority, as much as possible to have them have to fight their case detained and either lose the will to do so and or not be able to afford an attorney. Because detained cases move along a lot quicker and are very costly as well for that reason. So what they're doing is anybody who was here two years or less but was paroled in. So they're in the regular immigration court proceedings. They got out there under 240 proceedings, it's called.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah.

[Kirsten Zitlau (Primrose's lawyer)]

So DHS attorneys in court are terminating those proceedings. They are asking the judge to terminate the 240 proceedings. So then that case is closed and then they immediately restart a case under section 235.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

That hearing went relatively smoothly. Their lawyer, who is now working for whatever primrose could fundraise was able to help them make their case. They left with another hearing scheduled. Soon after they decided to move to LA to stay with another friend after the housing situation in Texas fell through. They were living in East LA when they had their next ICE check in.

[Primrose]

Yeah, I was living appointment and you.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Said they went back to get some documents and they made you wait for hours?

[Primrose]

Yeah, I went there I think around 8 to 4pm.

At first they came and give me my papers. They said go to Chatwith which is close to where you stay then to come here in LA downtown. So when I walk away I realized there was no other documents. Then I walk like I go back. I said to Kim let's go back inside. Then I go to the reception. Then I asked the lady and she was rude at first. Then she took my documents then said oh okay, let me go and find it. Three hours, four hours not coming Big Ten. She came and called me I think 4pm.

Then the ICE officer is just telling me I'm going to detain you.

I said oh why? Said we are going to explain more where you are going. I said oh okay.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Like thousands of other migrants who are trying to do as they're asked, Primrose was detained at her check in along with Kim. Previously she'd been given ice check ins in Riverside. Despite living in East LA. I'd helped her navigate the 4 and a half hour bus route to get there on time. I wondered how on earth someone who doesn't have a friend here or who doesn't speak English is expected to do this. She went out of her way to.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Make sure she was there and she.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Had her documents in order despite all of this. But she and Kimberly were detained anyway. It's not hard for me to see why people in LA were mad.

[Primrose]

Then they took me to Santana. We were just sitting. Not even one ICE officer come talk to me. Nothing. I was just sitting and the other thing, they just took my phone same time they said switch it off. Then I said can I I tell even one of my friends? Maybe they, they are worried now say no, no, we are going to give you a phone later on. I said okay. So in Sanana they took us in a hotel to sleep. Then the following day they took us to Sandana Detention Center. Not even one officer. I was asking the security, they said we don't even know. We spent the whole day sitting doing nothing. We were just sitting. Then they took us, I think around 6pm back to Los Angeles. Then when that's where I Saw the ICE officer. Then she explained to me, we are going to detain you, are going to put you somewhere because the rules are changing every day. I even asked her did I do something? She said no.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

I've heard this from a lot of migrants. The ICE agents managing their non detained docket as opposed to those in enforcement, removal or detention seem to be struggling.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

To keep up with the pace of.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

The changes in rules. Many of the migrants I'd heard from had decent relationships with the officers who do their check ins. And they can't understand why other officers working for the same organization would detain them even though they're doing exactly what.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

They'Re asked to do.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

They are doing things, quote unquote the right way. But that's not enough for an agency desperately driven by quotas and the desire to purge the nation of people who had risked their lives to become Americans. Let's hear how this felt for Primrose.

[Primrose]

Then she said, do you have a lawyer? I said yes. Then she said, okay, it's fine. So she gave me another document to sign. Then I signed like they are going to detain me. Then I asked here for how long? She said, I don't think you guys, where you are going. I'm going to stay more than 14 days, maybe less than 14 days. I said okay. Then I ask a phone to call a lawyer. She gave me a phone. Then I contact the lawyer. The lawyer, the phone was off. Then I tried to contact one of my friends. Then he answered. I said, yo, we wanted to go to the police to ask because we were worried because your phone was off. And the ICE officer, the ICE officer, they both was having a gps so my GPS was off. So they were phoning.

The person who helped me in Texas looking for me. Then he also replied, I'm also looking for you. I don't even know where she is.

So people, they were worried maybe I'll someone kidnap you. Something happened to me. Yeah.

Yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

So another ICE officer is also looking for you.

[Primrose]

Yeah, the other officer, officer were looking for me. They were even sending messages on their app. Yeah, yeah, asking where are you? Charge your gps. And the other ICE officer was detaining me. Then I even explained to her, she said, oh no, no, it's okay. Then she took the scissors. Then she cut the gps. She cut it off. Then we spent I think one hour. It was around seven. Then they said okay.

Or there's someone is coming to take you and your daughter. So to take you somewhere which is safe with your child. I ask where those People they said we don't know, we don't know.

Then I said oh okay.

Then they search me, they said do you want to take your bag? No, no, it's fine. I can ask even someone because I know I was having house key. For the apartment.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Primrose, like many people seeking asylum, had to wear a GPS ankle Tag, part of ICE's Alternatives to Detention program. There are various parts of the program including facial recognition check ins via smartphone app, home visits and the intensive supervision parent program which is administered by Behavioural Interventions, a GEO Group subsidiary. ISAP as it's known, includes an app through which people can check in as well as the GPS monitors and smartwatches which can monitor GPS and do facial recognition. Very obviously they're not being used in a systematic way. As one branch of ICE was detaining Primrose while another was using a GPS tag to try and find her. All of the GPS devices used as alternatives to detention represent massive surveillance overreach, an invasion of privacy and a huge government dragnet of data they can use to track down migrants and the people they're with. Despite this, they're also better than detention which is where Primrose ended up, but not directly.

[Primrose]

I think maybe they are going to deport me, I can't go with the keys. Then they took my bag, said okay, we are going to put somewhere. After one hour they took us to LAX airport.

They put us in a hotel.

It was around 12, yeah 12pm that time. And they said okay fine, you can have a shower, then you can have a nap. So Mia was in the shower and Kimberly, she was already on the bed sleeping. Then the lady came and knocked, said make fast, we are going to, we want to go back to pick another person where we came from, from. Ah, then I wake, I, I wake him up. So Kimberly, she was crying, she was like I want to sleep because she was having headache. Then they said no, no, no, it's okay, let's go, you are going to sleep where we are going? We spent the whole night up and down. We came back again to LA downtown to pick another guy with a, with his son. Then they took us to San Diego airport. I think we arrived, I think it 5am.

To take the flight to San Antonio, Texas.

Then.

After that and the other lady, she was rude. The other one, she was nice, she was fine. The other one, if you ask her, she was like, she was rude. Then I just keep quiet.

Then I think at the airport we spent three hours sitting. Then we catch our flight at 8am to San Antonio. Yeah. They took us to Delhi, Immigration, they welcomed us. Nice. Everything. Yeah. Then they put us inside.

But for me, I was, I was crying, to be honest.

Yeah. I was even crying like, you know, the only person make me strong. It's came and it's worse for her. Like since last year. Since last year. Your life is something else. I'm just moving from one place to another. Moving from one place to another. You know.

She'S a strong girl, but sometimes you can see when you see her sitting down, starting crying, she will just remind you something.

Yeah.

So. Yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

The Flores settlement governs detention of children by immigration authorities. It limits the time they can be held to 20 days and establishes minimum standards for their detention and treatment. It was a lawsuit based on this Flores settlement that eventually ended the Biden era policy of outdoor detention. The settlement is widely flouted, but it was the best hope Primrose and Kimberley had. Kirsten, their lawyer, who we heard from earlier, worked tirelessly to demand they be treated according to their rights. How was it you called me a.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Few times in Dilly?

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Right.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Like how Kim wasn't having a good.

[Primrose]

Time at first, first week. It was hard even for both of us. Yeah, yeah. Even the food. Me, I wasn't even eat it first. It was very hard for both of us. But you know kids. She was like used to.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Primrose called me a few times from detention. I pick up the phone to a robot voice and the number would identify itself on my phone as federal detention or something like that. At first, obviously I was afraid, but I had an idea of what it could be. Yet another connection that began with a little piece of waterproof paper in the jungle and was now nine months later, leading to a phone call from a prison for families in Texas. I'd pick up the phone and then I'd have to press 1 or 2 to accept the call. I always wondered what I was about to hear. I could tell she was trying to put on a brave face, but she sounded so small, it was difficult. Really hard to hear. She said Kim wasn't eating the food, which I've often heard is terrible. I spent hours trying to find out how to put money on their commissary account so she could get something a little better. Kirsten fought on and on to try and get them released. I remember at one point hearing from Primrose locked up with her daughter for the crime of asking this country for help on the 4th of July. It would be too cliche if I made that up. But nothing this Year really seems believable. Even in ICE detention, which is a.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Miserable place for anyone.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Primrose and Kim had an especially hard time as most of the migrants they were detained with spoke Spanish in the West.

[Primrose]

The other thing is, like those people, they were especially the room, they put me, all of them, they were Spanish. And me, I don't even understand Spanish. I even asked the ICE officer, can you please? Maybe because there's another lady also. Two ladies, I think Africans. We were only four families. So we even asked them, can you put us in one room so that we can understand each other? Even especially for the tv, you know, kids, they refuse.

So sometimes I even had a report to one of the ladies. She was very rude to us. She came and speak something. So me and Kim, we don't even understand like what she said. So I just saw people they doing something. Then later when she was like, hey, I came here and I said this and that. When you came here, you just speak Spanish. You didn't even explain with English. And of which me, I don't understand English. So she just write a report to a boss. So a boss came and called me. Then I explained to her. Then she was like, oh, okay. Then they called here. She wanted to say, no, no, no. I even explained to you English. Then there's another woman inside my room. Then she spoke with Spanish. I didn't even hear. But she was telling the officer, no, no, this woman, she's lying. She just came and speak Spanish here, not English. So these people, they were just sleeping. They didn't even know what to do. Cuz she just only spoke Spanish. Spoke Spanish only.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

I've heard this from lots of migrants. They end up serving as translators for each other. Because the agency that is funded better than most countries, militaries seemingly won't provide them. Often people who speak indigenous languages have to find a translator into Spanish or Russian or whatever other language they have a colonial relationship with. Other times there's just nobody to help them. And they're even more alone than afraid.

Luckily, Primrose wasn't alone. She had Kim with her. And as they always do, they looked out for each other. These aren't things a child should have to do. Certainly not a child as young as Kimberly. But in the end, it was Kimberly who could help work out what was going on.

[Primrose]

Then the ICE officer, I started crying like. Then they took me to psychologist. Then they said, ah, no, it's okay. I think I even spent three days that side. They removed me in the room. Then they put me back.

So Kimberly, she was learning, understanding Spanish. So sometimes you helping me. Oh, mommy, they said this and that. They said this and that. I even write a note to complain, like when these people came, then we have to accommodate all of us because it's not like, oh, we are all Spanish.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah.

[Primrose]

And I. We don't understand Spanish.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Along with being overcrowded and underfed, migrants at ICE facilities are often incredibly bored. I've heard of some of them trying to teach yoga or share stories. But for the most part, they're so afraid and isolated that they are forced to sit with their anxieties day after day. I can't imagine what this is like for parents who have to try and maintain their own mental health and take.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Care of their children.

[Primrose]

But to be honest, we were just sitting. So time goes. Oh, yeah. Because I remember one day we went to play. We went to the gym to play, I think soccer with Kim. I just fell down. I just fell down. They took me to hospital. I think I spent, I think three hours. Then I wake up. Yeah.

Yeah. Because I think it's depression.

So they put me in depression pills till I get it out.

Yeah. Because my people. You was high every time. Each and, every time. Each and every day.

Yeah. But I, I asked my ICE officer about my case. Then she just replied me, I'm just waiting for ICE to close your case, then we can start for asylum. So I was just sitting doing nothing.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Despite what the detention was doing to her, Primrose remained determined to keep fighting her case. Every Thursday, an ICE officer would come by and she would be able to ask about her case. She'd been looking forward to the only point in her week when she might get some good news, or at least some news about what was happening to her and why. Sadly, that's not how it went.

[Primrose]

Yeah, there was. ICE officer was very rude, to be honest. Everyone just walk away without. And people, they were crying, complaining.

Then he was like, I went to him, straight to him, I wanted to ask him a question. He said, I don't have time. The only thing I can even tell you guys, if you are tired staying here.

You can. Because they were putting papers for self deportation in our rooms. Like if you want to depend on put you anytime, you can just sign you put your A number, your phone number, everything. Then they can make you.

To get here.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

In her lowest moments, Primrose said she felt like giving up. Maybe it all wasn't worth it. She thought that he would do anything to get away from the hell of the detention center.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

That's the goal of these places, to break people.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

But Kimberly reminded her what they'd come all this way for.

[Primrose]

Because when I was in detention, there's a time I was like, ah, I'm going to sign a deportation form. Oh, he's scream. She said, no, people, they are going to kill you. If you want to go back, oh, it's fine. It's up to you. If you want to go die, go. Not me. Sign your paper. Not my paper, you must sign yours. Then you can go. Don't sign my name. No, I would rather stay here because I know people. Because there's a lot of people happening in the air. I especially in my country also. So she still remember everything.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

The depression, hunger, boredom and misery that characterizes eyes. Detention is not a bug, it's a feature. It's supposed to force people into breaking, into signing those papers, into getting sent back to whatever they came here to escape. However, the tenacity that brought Primrose's fire hadn't left her. And she made sure to let them know she was not willingly going back.

[Primrose]

Then I said, no, me, I'm not going anywhere because my life is in danger. Then he said, I don't care. Even if they kill you, I don't even care.

You have to take a form and sign if you are tired. Then I said, okay, at least tell me my case. Because when they catch me. Because like everyone was asking me, where did they catch you? I explained the other officer was liking us. So who detained you? I said, I don't even know the name.

But that ICE officer, he was very rude. He said, I don't care. Do you think I care? I don't even care whether you go back to your country, whether they killed you. It's none of my business. I have my family. I have. Oh, so people, people, they were, they were like, shouted him. Those Spanish, they were even crying, shouted him. He just walk away and leave us.

So people just also starting walk away, go around, we even write a note, we pull like a complaint. But no one even come and help us until the day they just come and call me. They are going to release me.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Kon had spent weeks calling, emailing and demanding that Primrose and Kimberly be treated according to their rights under the Florida settlement. I wasn't sure if it was a lost cause, but it was the only option we had. And I was happy that Kimberly, unlike so many others in that detention centre, had someone to fight for her. In fact, she had hundreds of people. People all across the country had donated to Our legal aid fund here in San Diego. People put on shows and took collections to pay for her legal fees. Listeners to this show dipped into their pockets to support Primrose and Kimberly. Thanks to them, she had a chance to get out. Like many other legal rights that migrants have, Flores was being widely ignored. And it's likely the Trump admin will take a run at removing it altogether soon. But for now, in this one case, it still applied. But even once ICE conceded that Primrose and Kimberly had a right to be freed, they still took their time doing it.

[Primrose]

They released me on the 10th.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Yeah, I remember. You called me just on the phone.

[Primrose]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I called you. Yeah, exactly.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

You thought you were going to get out that week, but they took longer and longer.

[Primrose]

Yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

The release felt like a victory, but she still faced the same difficulties she had. Before Primrose could not legally work, she was still in la, where Border Patrol under Bavina were conducting violent raids on people accused of no crime other than crossing the border between ports of entry. And because it was the summer, Kimberly still hadn't resumed her education.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

So that was July, like we were in August now.

[Primrose]

Yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

You said your work permit still hasn't come, right?

[Primrose]

Yeah, they clear everything. I was supposed to get my work permit.

On this July, but they clear everything. Like I'm new. Everything. They just clear everything. So starting August. Yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

It'S November now and there's still no permit. Here's Kirsten explaining in May of this year how this system works.

[Kirsten Zitlau (Primrose's lawyer)]

You have a work permit clock. Right. Which is another absurd thing for Asylees that once they file their asylum application, they have to wait 150 days before they can apply for a work permit. And of course, they're expected to be independently wealthy during those five months or, you know, or star over. I don't know what they're expected to do.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah, Rely on the generosity of others, like.

[Kirsten Zitlau (Primrose's lawyer)]

Exactly. So if you do something like try to change venue or a motion to continue, if you. If you do something in your case that the judge perceives as not moving the case along and rather like kind of trying to stall it or possibly pausing it or slow it down, the judge will stop the work permit clock the days, and it's a whole thing. So Primroses was stopped because the judge wanted her to get an attorney.

So then usually when the case is set for a final hearing, that code, adjournment code, they call it. Yeah, we have the access to the codes and what stops the clock and what doesn't. And it always Restarts the clock because you moved your case along, because you're setting it for trial. It's, you know, obviously moving your case along. Hers was not restarted.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

That video is still on Primrose's mind as well. It still comes up when she goes to a new church or meets new people. Even 11 months later, one of the worst days of her life still follows her.

[Primrose]

And.

The person who posted me on my video, please.

I don't know how to say, but the comments I was reading was really bad. And people, they just judge people without even know their status, where they came from.

Yeah, I can't control them. But deep down I'm not okay. And you see, even now I'm struggling for my knee. Yeah. And the other people, they will laugh at me like, yeah.

But it's not funny. And I wish if the person, maybe she was supposed to cover my face or to cover Kimberly's face. Yeah, right.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

But I didn't want their time in LA to entirely be defined by their detention. I didn't want them to think that everyone in this country doesn't want them here. I never really expect the government to make people feel welcome here. I think that's something we should do. These people are joining our communities. They risk their lives to come and live here with us. And it's us who should welcome them. We can't leave that to the whims of the Electoral College. We have to do it ourselves, just like the people in Bajo Chiquito did. So I drove up to la. Primrose and Kim had another ICE appointment and I arranged to meet them after. I freaked out a little bit when I couldn't get through to them. But eventually I did. The big ICE building has no signal inside. It turns out their place in LA is where I conducted the interview. You heard? I took them out for a manicure first because it seemed like something that would make them feel taken care of. And I got Kim some bubble seed because she wanted to try it. Sitting in the little manicure shop watching a Vietnamese lady take great care over their nails felt like another glimpse of the communities we aspire to build, where people from all over the world can come and be safe. By this time, I hadn't heard from Norway for months and I'd started to realize I might not ever again. So I decided I wasn't going to let Kimberly live so close to Disneyland and not go. One of my colleagues has family who worked there. We got Primrose and Kimberly day passes. It felt really nice just to give them a day to be a family and not to worry. I didn't go with them and record. I wanted them to enjoy the day on their own, and by all accounts they did. Primrose sent me pictures of them smiling outside various rides and exhibit, and I felt a little bit better to have helped make someone's American dream a little less of a nightmare. Tomorrow I want to talk more about welcoming people in our communities and taking care of them. Because now more than ever, I think that's what we have to do.

The week before you're hearing this on a beautiful Southern California winter morning, I met some friends in a parking lot near the border. We hopped into our trucks and drove along dirt roads till we reached a pull up. Once there, we threw on packs and hiked straight up a steep hillside. Even in late November, the south facing slope was hot. We were all sweating by the time we reached the GPS location we'd been given. It wasn't hard to spot a dark patch on the landscape where someone's remains had returned to the earth. One friend had carried a heavy wooden cross up the mountain.

We dug a hole in the rocky ground and then placed the white wooden cross in it. Silently, we filled the hole back up, stamped on the dirt until the cross stood straight up. Then we decorated it with marigolds and.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Seashells and dried flower petals.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Doing the best we could, one friend.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Carefully picked the petals off the flowers.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Laid them on the arms of the cross. Another sprinkled poppy seeds into the ground. We stood in silence for a while, but the construction of the secondary border wall didn't halt for a minute in silence, and then together we paid our respects to Graciela Asuncion Gomez Hernandez, whose last moments were spent looking at the same sky we were looking at, gazing down onto the two border walls that were built to separate us from her. She died in September in the heat wave, the same month. The year before, I'd had to call 911 for several migrants with heatstroke I'd come across. She died, a friend told me, with her clothes folded next to her, sheltering under a bush. Looking from the place we erected the lonely little cross, that was all we had left. Remember her? I could see four Border Patrol surveillance antennas. She was just a few hundred yards from the wall, from the road, but it took weeks for anyone to find.

[Primrose]

Hernandez Presente Graciela Suncion Gomez Hernandez Presente.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Obviously we arrived too late to help, but we arrived soon enough to ensure that, at least in death she was afforded the dignity the world has denied her.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

In life.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Then I strapped half a 50 gallon barrel into my backpack frame while my friends carried slabs of water bottles.

As we walked, a construction vehicle above us drilled holes into the earth for pylons that would hold a second 30 foot wall on the 60 degree slope above the vehicle. A helicopter flew around and then it flew back underneath it. We wrote the date on water bottles and threw them in a barrel.

I tried to date all.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Okay doing this for years, we've said.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Goodbye to our fair share of people who we never got to say hello to and whose faces we never got to see. Last summer, I helped search for the remains of a migrant who had passed away in a canyon deep in the desert. Every time I do this fills me with a deep sadness, especially with all the friends from the jungle who I've lost touch with since then. It could be easy to look at everything I've laid out in this series and feel hopeless. But I don't want you to. It could be easy to feel afraid as well, because now is the time that caring about other people is dangerous. It's possible currently for some folks to keep their heads down and try and keep themselves safe, or to confine their actions to our angry posting on social media. But our politics shouldn't be about anger. It should be about love. Now more than ever, it's important to remember that we don't act on our love and our solidarity with angry tweets. We act on it by taking care of people. However many walls they build, however many masked men with guns they send, I don't believe it's within the power of the state to stop people caring about each other. And I hope that that care compels people to do something. In fact, I think seeing so much cruelty makes us all realize that it's up to us to care for one another. People have cared for Primrose and Kim in all kinds of ways since they.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Came here, and today we're going to.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Hear from some of them. Friends bought Kimberly's schoolbooks while they were stuck in Mexico. Some other folks put on a burlesque performance here in San Diego to raise money for her lawyer. Hundreds of you reached into your pockets.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

To help her pay for her legal.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

And living expenses when the state, both under Biden and under Trump, made her and Kimberly feel unwelcome.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

You didn't.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

I've carried my fair share of water into the desert under the Biden administration as well. It was Biden's policies that left little Noemi stuck in Mexico, not Trump's. It was Biden's policies that detained people in the open air and left them with no food or water or shelter. And it was everyday people like my friends and I who fed them and sheltered them and took care of them. We took donations and dived into dumpsters to grab tents and worked hard every day to build shelters, cook food, and give away clothing so that people could feel welcome and safe here. Not a single elected official gave out a single sandwich, much less made one, in the months that thousands of people were detained outdoors in Okumba and San Isidro. But people from churches, Gurdwaras, Latter Day Saints people, and Quakers, as well as a whole lot of anarchists and crust punks and just desert people with no particular politics did. I'm not saying this to pat us on the back. I don't think any of us really wanted to be mentioned at all. Like many of us, some of my happiest memories were the days we fed strangers and then sat around fires sharing stories and sometimes songs. Since then, I've been privileged to share the joys and struggles some of those people faced in their new lives here. I've attended their weddings, I've tried to help them understand Appalachian accents, and I've helped them come to terms with the fact that you simply can't get around large parts of this country without a car.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

I'm saying this because I think it's.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Important that whatever happens after this current administration, we can't ever go back to the way things were before. We can't let migrants be invisible in our communities. We can't let them keep dying at the border. Let's talk about what caring looks like in Primrose's case. This time last year I just released my Dairy and Gap podcast and a few weeks later I received a direct message via my Patreon newsletter. It was from a guy called Matt.

[Matt]

My name's Matt. I'm just a normal person who listens to a lot of podcasts.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

I didn't know him and he didn't know me, but he listened to the podcast I made.

[Matt]

I can still very vividly remember where I was when I listened to that, which was I was coming back from a dirt biking trip in Michigan and so I had a seven hour drive and I was like, oh cool, here's a three hour podcast that I'll listen to. And then I started listening to it and then I was just like, I got into that mode where I was just like, I couldn't not finish it. I was like absolutely hooked and just needed to get all the way to the end, and was just really, really moved by the whole thing.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Like many Americans until relatively late in the Biden administration, Matt knew about immigration, but he hadn't really grappled with the.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Fact that what secure borders means is.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Killing innocent people in the jungle, in the desert, and everywhere in between. That's how deterrence works. That's how it's supposed to work.

[Matt]

I didn't realize that that was intentional. And then hearing yours, I was just sort of like, oh, right. Just the fact that people would go to such lengths of danger on a journey just across a continent and knowing that once they get here, they're not even welcome. Right. We're going to intentionally put up this kind of life or death obstacle course. I kept thinking about it, and the next day I was like, let me see if you've done anything else on it. And I found a couple of your other episodes on it. And I was like, wow, this is wild. And that was. You were talking about the open air detention in the Hakumba area and. And I was like, this is crazy. Like this is just happening just right outside of San Diego. I mean, it's just wild.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Matt felt like now that he knew this, he couldn't not do something about it. So he took some of his vacation time at work and came to Southern California.

[Matt]

The thing that was crazy is seeing all the equipment, you know, the equipment, if you can call it that, left behind by the people traveling through these places where it's just like normal shoes and just like cheap Walmart backpacks and just, you know, the. The just basic stuff that you would just like, wear to school.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Matt joined friends of mine in the mountains, carrying water and helping with some tech issues we've been wondering about. He saw the wall and he saw the damage it does.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

He saw the difficult terrain people have.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

To cross just to get a chance.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

To ask for help here, the ways they have to risk their lives even.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

After they make it to the usa. He also got to experience the way that helping other people helps us.

[Matt]

As I was heading back home, I definitely had this feeling about, like, way less despair, getting together with people to just do something, to just do something useful to help people. Even if it's just like in a tiny way, like, even if somehow it doesn't help, but it's like it probably will. But importantly, doing it with other people, it made me feel a lot better. It made me not feel so. Like just everything is fucked. Like the world is descending into fascism or when there's nothing I can do about it. It's like, there are a lot of people who want to help. Doing stuff with them is like. Is good.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Soon after, like all of us, he saw the border bringing its violence into cities across the United States.

[Matt]

I mean, like, just masked federal agents, we assume, mostly refusing to identify themselves, just randomly picking people up. I mean, it's crazy and.

I mean, I literally am a loss for words. I mean, it's just. It's so the opposite of what America is all about. Straight up, like fascism.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Like, I just.

[Matt]

I never thought I would live through something like this. I always just thought that's the kind of thing that happens in other countries.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

You know, I guess a lot of us thought that. A lot of us probably thought this kind of state violence was confined to other places and other times. We wondered, perhaps absentmindedly, what we might do in those places and times. For years, as a historian and a reporter, I've thought about them, read about them, visited them. Now I'm living in them.

[Matt]

It's always just sort of like, in the same way that you would think what would happen if I was in this, I don't know, movie? Like, it's not real. Just think like, oh, what if I was Jason Bourne?

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Matt and I stayed in touch. One day he was in LA on business and I mentioned I'd been helping Primrose navigate the mass transit nightmare that is Los Angeles so she could get to her ICE appointment. He offered to stop by if she needed a ride anywhere. I connected them.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

He saw her place and he offered.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

To help her get some furniture as well. Then it was time for him to fly home. Every day like I do. He had to worry about someone he knew being snatched.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

The Florida settlement doesn't stop ICE from redetaining people.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

And in la, they seem to be detaining anyone they could, any way they could. Kim had been afraid to go out now because she didn't want to go back to detention. So once again, Matt decided he wanted to do something. And he asked if Kim and Primrose might like to come and stay with.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Him on the East Coast. That's not an easy choice to make.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Not only does it mean sharing your space, it also means taking yourself out of the safe group and accepting that the state's eye of Sauron might fall on you.

[Matt]

Now, you know, I talked it over with my wife and we were like, you know, both wanted to do this, but, you know, we had to acknowledge, like, it might mean that, like, these assholes in masks show up at our house, like, where our Kids are and are, like, gonna haul away just this family that might happen in, like, right over there. I mean, I don't like it, but I just. I don't know.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

I just.

[Matt]

I feel like you gotta do. Just gotta do something, you know?

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

In the end, he says, it wasn't a hard decision to make.

[Matt]

I mean, it was a lot easier because my wife was actually just like, 100%, let's do it. And I was like, well, hold on a second. We should at least think through the outcome. She's like, I don't care. Whatever, just do it.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Like a lot of people, Matt had always done things to help people, but nothing like this. Nothing that directly put him in between someone who needed to be kept safe.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

And the people who didn't want them to be safe.

[Matt]

Yeah, I mean, nothing is dangerous. I mean.

Charity stuff, but sometimes with time, but usually just like giving money to people to, you know, who need it or whatever. But, you know, this is definitely the most, like, direct involvement to help someone who needs. It certainly is the first time that I've exposed my family to anything like this.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

So one day this autumn, Primrose and Kimberly said goodbye to Los Angeles, got.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

On a plane, flew to the East Coast.

[Matt]

I thought I was waiting at the right spot, but they let him out at a different spot.

So they actually walked past me in the airport. I didn't even see it. But I eventually figured it out. Luckily, the airport is not that big, and so I could just sort of walk, just walk all the baggage claim area. And I eventually found them.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Then they went for sushi, then for ice cream. A perfect suburban strip mall American evening. The sort of evening people cross jungles and deserts to be able to enjoy. The sort of evening that hundreds of people I met in the jungle will.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Never be able to enjoy.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Of course, it's hard to sit in a cold zone and talk about the.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Things people endure to come here.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Matt says sometimes it's still difficult to even comprehend what his new friends have been through.

[Matt]

It's hard to answer, like, you're asking a very good question about, like, well, what was it like? Et cetera. And it's like the difference, the distance between our shared experience is so vast, it still often almost doesn't seem real.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

I've had that same thought.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

It's hard to hear stories from migrants and really think of them as human experiences, not just stories.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

That's why I go into the mountains and the desert. It's why I spent a decade asking editors to send me to Darien. I don't think I could understand migrants.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Journeys if I hadn't experienced a little part of them.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

And I don't think we should write about migrants or not write about what they go through to get to a.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Strip mall sushi place. Of course, Primrose isn't done with her.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Interaction with immigration authorities yet. They've had visits from ICE in her new home, but not from Enforcement Removal Operations.

[Matt]

I mean, like, they know where she lives.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

We told them where she lives.

[Matt]

So, like, she lives in my house, so, you know. Yeah, they might.

[Mia Wong]

I don't know.

[Matt]

I mean, yeah, I. I guess I'm like, not as afraid of that. I have to say that the ICE people in.

Seem just like a bunch of cheery folks. Like, it's seems pretty different than. I mean, I, like, I met many of them.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Part of this process. And they were not the like, you know, plate carriers and guns guys. They were just like the, you know, they work in the office and decide whether you get to move here or not, you know.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Right. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

And they were like, very friendly and downright helpful.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Primrose is settling in at Matt's place now, but as Matt explained, their struggle isn't over yet.

[Matt]

Now, like, our energy is, is more on how do we help her make her case, because she has an asylum case that, you know, she, she needs to win. And it's, you know, I'm not a lawyer, but wow, sounds like what asylum is for. Literally running from a hostile government that she was protesting and was going to jail and torture her. Like, what, what is asylum for if not for that?

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Of course, interacting with the asylum system has shown Matt some of its absurdities.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Like the work permit clock, the four hour bus rides to Riverside, and the endless changing regulations one has to navigate or trying to survive without the ability to legally work.

[Matt]

In what way can you do this legally without some, you know, group helping you? Without like just somebody saying, fine, I will take you and pay for your living expenses? What, what is the legal way to like, seek asylum? You come here, they put you in jail, you stay in jail, which is fucking jail.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Or they let you out of jail.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Good.

[Matt]

Hooray, we're out of jail. And now you're homeless.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah.

[Matt]

You have no possessions and no ability to legally work. At least let them work. I mean, come on, just let them get a legal job. That's just like the sort of bureaucracy version of the forcing people across the desert. It's like, well, okay, you won't die in the desert. In this one. In this one, you will die or you will suffer under homelessness. More deterrence. You know, everyone always says, oh, I support immigration. Just gotta be legal, you gotta do it the right way. But they have no idea what they're talking about. Like, what is the right way? I believe everyone who says that has no idea what the right way is.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Changing that, making our laws line up.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

With what anyone would see as basic.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Decency, isn't coming anytime soon. In the meantime, they have to navigate the asylum system and its many contradictions.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Primrose never got any follow up care for her leg injury.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

And the only way she could access care in her new home was once again totally impractical for someone without a car. Just another example of how the system sets people up to suffer and fail.

[Matt]

There's no way to get her to the doctor. Well, okay, there is a way.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

A way.

[Matt]

Technically, we could drive like an hour and 20 minutes way out to this place that, like, has a thing with the ICE that they will say like, well, that's your approved, like, medical provider. Like, I'm not gonna drive an hour, 20 minutes each way to just do some minor thing.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah.

[Matt]

So we pay out of pocket. So we go to a doctor and we go, here is the problem we have. We don't have insurance. Let's get this done for as little money as possible. Because in the United States, if you don't have insurance, it is going to cost you.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And mercifully, my wife and I both know a number of doctors that we can sort of run ideas by. And if we didn't have that, like.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

I don't know what we would do.

[Matt]

It would not be good. I mean, I know what we'd do. We would drive an hour and 20.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Minutes to the place and we would.

[Matt]

Just be like, okay, doctor, help. But, like, because, you know, we have connections and we are also willing to pay a little bit out of pocket. She needed to get some medicine. Medicine is super expensive. So you go to the CVS and you're like, well, you know, oh, we don't have your insurance on file. We're like, I know, but how much is this going to really cost? And dude, drugs are so expensive.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Like, it's just.

[Matt]

What are those people supposed to do?

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

It's a broken system and it's not one we can really rely on government to change whoever's in office.

[Matt]

The Democrats don't have a great answer for this either. I wish they did. I mean, I will still vote for them because they're at least less bad.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah.

[Matt]

You know what? What other choice do you have? It's like, if there was a better party, I would be that one that. I mean, if they had a chance of winning, right?

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah, yeah. They don't make a difference.

[Matt]

No other party has a chance of winning. So, yeah, man, I'm a Democrat, like, and I will help the Democrats try to win elections. They push it in the direction that it needs to go, like. But the Democrats are part of the problem. I mean, like, they're. They're not radically changing policies that would change this thing we've been talking about.

[Sophie Lichterman]

For the last hour.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

When I first moved to the us.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

George W. Bush was president.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Soon after I got here, Obama was elected, and it was Thanksgiving. I didn't know much about Thanksgiving, and I didn't have much time for history that overlooked settler colonialism anyway. But the day before, I was riding my bike down the coast and I ran into some folks who were also riding their bikes. They asked what plans I had for the next day, and I told them I was just going to ride my bike all day. That's what I like to do. They, having just met me, invited me into their home the next day. They fed me and we talked for hours and became friends. A decade and a half later, on the night before Thanksgiving, my friends cooked as many beans as they could fit in their giant pot that we boiled above a propane burner made from half a beer keg. In the cold of the desert, some Kurdish guys helped us ladle out scoops of hot stew for hundreds of people. I still don't go in for settler colonialism very much, but I felt thankful to be in a position where I could welcome people now. That same year, on Christmas Eve, I was sitting on the tailgate of a pickup in the desert, kicking my feet so my toes wouldn't burn with cold. I spent the entire day building shelters for people out in the desert, left there for up to a week by the Biden administration. We'd handed out all our food again, but some folks who'd been taking care of their kids or trying to find a warm place out the desert went to sleep, had missed out on eating. So I'd found a few boxes of HDRs, which are kind of like a worse but vegan version of MREs, and I took them from the truck and went over to the people who had missed dinner. They heated them up somehow on a piece of scrap metal over the fire. I can't really remember other than thinking it was really janky.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

I struggle to describe how special it.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Felt for me to be able to share a little of the welcome I received with other people like Matt. I feel more hopeful knowing that not.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Only are other people just as upset.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

As I am, but that alongside those other people, I can do things that I wouldn't have thought possible if I hadn't seen them with my own eyes and done them with my own hands. From Obama to today, it's been up to us to welcome migrants. Obama set records for deportation, Biden beat them, albeit including Title 42 removals, and Trump will probably beat both this year. In the meantime, it's up to regular people to help one another. That shouldn't make us feel hopeless. It should make us feel strong. Matt's doing something remarkable, but I don't think he was in a very remarkable situation before. He was just a person lucky enough to have some spare time and some space to look after someone.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

But there are millions of people like.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

That in this country. There are millions of people who are mad right now, but anger alone is not going to help us take care of people. That's what the priority should be right now. I don't want to paint Matt as.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

The only person who helped Primrose because hundreds of people helped Primrose from the.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Emperor in the jungles of Panama and her fellow migrants while she crossed the Darien Gap. People across the continent took their time and their resources to help a stranger. I've heard of this from countless migrants as well. Some of them rode the train from southern Mexico up to the border, and people threw them food and warm jumpers.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

To total strangers who they'd never met.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Who they'd never even get a chance to see across thousands of miles. When states ignored their suffering, the hundreds of migrants I have talked to found.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Food, shelter, and solidarity from ordinary people.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

And those people, in their own way, benefited, too.

[Matt]

It was enlightening to me that a. I wasn't. It wasn't just me. Like, it's not just, oh, I. For some reason, I am the only one who's, like, really upset by all this. You know, there are other folks who.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Who.

[Matt]

Who are like this, but. But also just like a lot of other people are absolutely willing to take risks, be generous with their time and money. Like, there's a lot of them. There's a lot of people who, like, want to help. And that kind of community aspect of it. It was a surprise to me that the doing it with other people was so powerful. Like, I thought it was just about the doing the actual act of helping people somehow, but doing it with other people. Was just surprisingly good. Made me feel much more optimistic about our ability to get through this collectively.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

I asked Matt what he wanted people.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

To know about his experience.

[Matt]

Well, I mean, I guess what I would like people to know is it's not as hard as you might think to help folks like Primrose. Like, it sounds insurmountable, like, oh, no, I'm exposed to all this risk and danger and legal hassle or whatever, but it's like, it's not that complicated. It's like they fill out a form and it just says, like, oh, now I live here. And then once prove it, then they live there.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

The hard part is finding someone. Especially now that migrants are more worried than ever to be out in the community.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Any database would be a risk to them.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

But maybe that's not a problem that someone can solve.

[Matt]

It's kind of like an information sharing problem because, like, these folks are all across the United States, and the people who could host them are similarly all.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Across the United States. But you don't have to take someone into your home. There are hundreds of things you can do wherever you are. You can feed people who are hungry, pick up someone's kid from school, or take their dogs for a walk, fix someone's car so it doesn't get towed or ticketed or drive someone to a doctor's appointment. Creating safe communities for migrants is not.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

A distinct act from creating safe communities for everyone. I've never been a big political theory.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Reader, but I think I've learned everything I need to know about politics in.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Refugee camps in the deserts and mountains.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

And jungles that migrants traverse to get to this country. In Panama, I met with a priest.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Who houses migrants In California, I've helped.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Sikhs and Quaker friends hand out warm.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Food in the cold. We can come from a broad range.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Of perspectives and still get to the same place.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

When someone needs help, you help them. And if we all do that, then when we need help, someone will help us.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

You don't have to wait four years to start. You can do it right now. While there are only some things we.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Can do in the face of a.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Government that doesn't want to help people.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Like Primrose, there is an awful lot that we can do for all the people who didn't make it to the.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

USA from the jungle, we can help.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

The people who did.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

We can also take this principle and make it a cornerstone of all our politics.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

The more people come to know migrants, the more they will see how broken our system is. The more people who see that, the more people will demand change.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

And I hope that they won't stop until we get a system that doesn't look at little children who aren't safe.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

And say, we don't want to help you.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Until we get a system that doesn't make them walk across jungles and through deserts before they even get a chance to ask for help. Before I go, I thought I would play a part of the interview I did with Senor Bonillo in Bajaquito last year. I spoke to his son on Monday and he said his dad's still doing well.

Truly, the migrants on this route are not here because they want to be. They are here because the economy in.

[Matt]

Their countries is terrible or something.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Everything is going badly in their countries.

[Matt]

How could we mistreat them knowing that we won't. Not us, never.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

This is a belief that we have. We are all children of God.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

God made the world and humanity, and.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

We are not that different.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

We are all brothers.

I want to leave the last word.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Today to Primrose because really, this is.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

A story about her and Kim and the incredible tenacity and courage they showed to get here.

[Primrose]

Even if I say I can me myself, I can say thank you. I don't even know how to say thank you, But I'm just. God knows God. Please bless those people who put hands on me and Kim. I thought maybe I'm alone, but I realized I'm not alone here. I have also people who helped me.

You guys, you helped me so much. I never even get helped, even in my country, the way I get helped here in America.

And I'm. I'm really, really.

Glad. I'm very glad for those people who helped me. I have especially since when I was even in. When I was in Mexico. In my prayers I just say, God, just bless those people who put hands on me. You make me feel better. You put smile in my face and even Kim. Because when we came here, I wasn't even heavy clothes to wear. Nothing. They just only the clothes they gave us in detention when they detain us. That the clothes I was having, I was. When I went to wash it was a T shirt jacket. I just removed the the top. Then I washed the. The inside the T shirt when it's dry. Then I we both and put a new one. We were like. But for now, now I'm really, really appreciated a lot.

I really appreciate a lot because.

My life is like changing now.

[Sophie Lichterman]

So.

[Primrose]

Yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

And it's.

Like you were saying, the things Kim will have will be so different from the chances you had right she can go to. She speaks English.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

She speaks Spanish.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

She can go to school here.

[Primrose]

Yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Does that make you happy when you think about.

[Primrose]

Yeah.

Even if I even told you, Kim, I was asking you one day, I said, kim, what if I die today?

She was even mentioning your name. Said, I will just ask him. Maybe I can just go to school.

Yeah. She. Yeah. Wish also she was like, mommy, I want to write my book when I start high school. I need to write my story of my life because we have been through a lot, but now we are happy. I don't want to live with your support, guys. I'm really appreciating. Yeah. Because if she go to school, I'm happy. I know she. I want you to have a better life. Yeah.

[Sophie Lichterman]

This is. It could happen here. Executive Disorder. Our weekly newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world and what it means for.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

For you.

[Sophie Lichterman]

I'm Garrison Davis. Today I'm joined by James Stout and Sophie Lichterman. This episode, we are covering the week of November 24th to December 4th. An extra long week. Somehow they squeezed a few more days in there to open us up. James, what are some. What are some important small stories we don't want to overlook?

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Okay.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah, Yeah. A lot because of our extra long week, Right?

[Garrison Davis]

Yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

The United States is flying manned ISR flights over Nigeria and possibly parts of the Sahel as well. Highly clear. Because the flights kind of go dark once they take off. Sources familiar with the matter have suggested that UAV strikes might begin soon. It seems that the ISR flights are targeting ISWAP and jnim. I'm going to write about this on my Patreon, probably because I think it requires visuals and I think it's. It's too much to go into in depth here. But if you want to check that out, you can.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Can you explain some of those acronyms?

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

No, I just love to find. I was about to say it's great when you report a military shit because it's just a wall of acronyms. Okay.

[Sophie Lichterman]

ISR flights.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

These are intelligence flights, right. Intelligence Surveillance Reconnaissance, I believe is the acronym they're looking for stuff.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Uav, Unmanned Aerial Vehicle.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

There's a gender neutral term.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Okay.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

That I can't remember. Unpiloted aerial vehicle.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Woke his back hard.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah, that's the Biden era thing, right. When you get killed by an unaccountable drone. But it's gender neutral. The iswap, that's the Islamic State. Wily in that part of the world. So like province West Africa. Province, I think it stands for.

[Sophie Lichterman]

These are the targets of these flights and strikes.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

And JNIM being another jihadist group that is not associated with the so called Islamic State.

[Garrison Davis]

Got it, Got it.

[Primrose]

Wow.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah. Okay. Hit you with another acronym. A foia, I think.

[Sophie Lichterman]

I think we know that one filed.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

By the Cato Institute has revealed that the FBI under Biden was investigating the sra. That's a socialist rifle association. It didn't bring charges against any of the members, but it did apparently investigate them for some time. Finally, the National Park Service has announced a new fee schedule and quote unquote, modernized graphics for passes.

[Garrison Davis]

Is this the horrific image you sent us?

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yes. It's a picture of Donald Trump. Yeah, that's. That's how they've modernized it. It's. It's not very nice. I know. There are better things in the parks. I feel like, like, you know, Half Dome is nice. The Yosemite Valley, pretty cool shit in. In Wrangles and Elias that you could do instead.

[Garrison Davis]

That's like him trying to rename that East Institute after himself. He just keeps trying to put his face and name on everything.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Yeah, well, when you're a dying man, legacy becomes very important.

[Garrison Davis]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. But that's exactly it. He. The US Institute of Peace is being renamed for Trump.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Really?

[Sophie Lichterman]

Yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Oh, I know. I miss that. Great.

[Garrison Davis]

Cool feeling. Very similar to that where he's just putting his face and name on everything.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah. So two things, right? Electronic passes for parks, probably a good thing. And a hundred dollar upcharge for non United States. I think it's residents as opposed to C. Citizens in the 11 most popular parts.

[Garrison Davis]

How can they even check that?

[Sophie Lichterman]

They might just ask like this. This sounds like a tourism thing, right? Like they, they just want it. People that are like visiting the States to pay more.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

To be clear, other countries do this. I still think it's bad. Like, like some of the Grand Canyon is part of the cultural patrimony of all of humanity.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

The National Park Service itself is an exercise in settler colonialism, but we can talk about that forever. Yeah, I've seen some stuff with gate rangers be like, I'm absolutely not asking for your green card.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Yeah, no, that's silly for your rangers.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

But yeah, I think they assume in good faith. A lot of other countries do do this. Like, it's not unusual. I still think it sucks. There's also a, an interagency pass. It's 250 for non residents and $80 for residents. So those are the big changes there.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Speaking of big Changes. A pretty big update in a case that has lasted nearly five years. This morning, Thursday, December 4, a suspect was arrested in connection to the pipe bombs placed around the Capitol the night before January 6th, specifically at the DNC and RNC headquarters in Washington, D.C. the suspect has been identified as 30 year old Brian Cole Jr. From Woodbridge, Virginia. Federal law enforcement sources have told the New York Post that the suspect may have had, quote, unquote, anarchist leanings. Unquote. This could mean anything, right? This. This could mean anything from like anti government, violent extremism, like militia movement type extremism, Boogaloo boys, accelerationist, as well as possible left wing anarchist leanings. Sure, it could be any number of things. There's still very limited information about this. Even in the, like, DOJ press conference that just wrapped up a few minutes before we started recording, they're being pretty tight lipped about details.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Anything about his gate?

[Sophie Lichterman]

Well, yes, people are. People are asking about his gate, and allegedly he had begun building explosive devices in 2019.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Okay, so like some.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Some background, this arrest does partially discredit a report from the Blaze, which Robert has talked about on this show before, which falsely identified a former Capitol Police officer as the bomber, based on gate analysis.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah, if they prosecute someone else, the Blaze is going to get sued out of existence, I would imagine.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Yeah. Critical support to former Capitol Police officer who puts the Blaze out of business.

[Garrison Davis]

Wow.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Pour one out for Glenn Beck. This suspect lives at a home associated with both their parents. It's unclear if the parents are still married. Suspect's dad runs a bail bond business, which the son is supposed to have worked for, and the mom is a real estate agent. Not much online presence can be found yet on Brian Cole Jr. I've spent hours looking, and so far, not much there, but we'll see if that changes over time.

[Garrison Davis]

Yeah, a developing story.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah, yeah, we'll do a whole episode if it merits it later, I guess.

[Garrison Davis]

Sure.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Talking of terrible indictments, Garrison, would you like to hear about a terrible indictment out of Texas?

[Sophie Lichterman]

I'm gonna say yes, but no. I don't know if I'd like to for work reasons. I feel like you're gonna do it anyway, so I'll play along.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Two Texas men have been indicted for a plan to invade a small island off Haiti, kill all the men, and sexually enslave all the women and children.

[Sophie Lichterman]

What?

[Garrison Davis]

I'm sorry, what?

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah, this is. This is a wild one. The indictment says they hope to, quote, lead an unlawful expeditionary force to the island of Gonave, which is Part of.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

The Republic of At.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

For the purpose of carrying out their rape fantasies, Weissenberg and Thomas planned to purchase a sailboat, firearms and ammunition, then recruit members of the District of Columbia area homeless population to serve as a mercenary force. As they invaded Canave island and stage a coup d', etat, Weissenberg and Thomas intended to murder all of the men on the island so they could turn all of the women and children into their sex slaves. That is what is alleged in the indictment.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Right.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Like, be an interesting case. One of them had joined the air force in 2025 to get some military experience or was in the Air Force this year to get some military experience and has successfully been transferred to Nero to D.C. from where they hope to recruit unhoused people to serve as mercenaries.

[Garrison Davis]

This is absolutely insane. Who are the. Who are these two Texas men? Why do they think this is, like, a thing that can be, like, all right, it's borderline.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Something I considered not including because, like, this people are probably pretty unwell, it seems like.

[Garrison Davis]

Are they just obsessed with, like, Eric Prince? Like, I don't. I don't under. I don't.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah. Like, if the guy hadn't passed all the background checks to get into the Air Force, I feel like this would be less remarkable. Right. But while planning to invade a small island and enslave everybody, he got into the Air Force. That. That in itself, like. Like should be a story. And of course, this is all alleged. Right? It's all in an indictment. We don't know what the evidential basis for a lot of this is.

[Garrison Davis]

Well, that was disturbing.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah, it's wild one, I guess. We'll keep you informed.

[Kirsten Zitlau (Primrose's lawyer)]

What.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Garrison. Garrison has been.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

I like.

[Garrison Davis]

I like, can't even compute. Like, that's one of the most insane things I've heard in a really long time.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Well, first of economic news, let's throw it to tariffs.

[Garrison Davis]

Let's go to tariff talk with Mia.

[Mia Wong]

This is Mia Wong with Tariff Talk. So, obviously the biggest tariff news right now is the impending Supreme Court ruling on the legality of a broad swath of tariffs that Trump has imposed using unbelievably dubious legal and economic authority. And by unbelievably dubious, I mean it is so patently illegal. It is an astounding demonstration of the complete abdication of the Supreme Court's pretensions at being one of the branches of government that this hasn't already been overturned. But this ruling has not dropped yet. Everyone's waiting. So in the meantime, what we have is a bunch of Trump administration officials have been going on TV and talking about trade policy and they're saying something that we've been hearing for a while now, which is that they believe that they can use different set of legal authority to impose the same tariffs. Whether they can do this or not is, I mean, they shouldn't be able to do this. Like, all of the, all of the authority they're using is pretty ridiculous. But this has been, this has been their strategy. They've been reiterating their strategy. On the other side, we've seen some interesting movement in terms of the opposition, which is that Costco has become sort of the biggest company to join in this trend of companies going to court with lawsuits to try to recoup the money that they've spent on these tariffs. Because if the Supreme Court ruling overturns the legality of these tariffs, these companies can get their money back retroactively. Costco is the biggest company we've seen so far move to attempt to do this remedy through the courts. So we will keep an eye on this. And this is, I think, especially if this comes overturned, we're going to see a lot of companies try to make moves for this. This is something that is going to piss off the Trump administration because they've been talking a giant game about how, oh, these are going to fund the, like, $2,000 tariff checks you're never getting. Trump is literally talking about, and this is, you know, this is an old sort of right wing thing, but he's talking about how, oh, tariff revenue is going to replace income tax, which, no, it's not like just nonsense gibberish. Numbers don't work, orders the magnitude off. Just nonsense, can't work. But, you know, these are things that they're saying and there's probably going to be increasing conflict between the sectors of capital that just want their money back from these tariffs and the Trump administration, which, you know, wants this money for its, you know, nebulous political purposes. There's been some sort of interesting political developments in terms of Trump and Lula. So people will probably remember from listening to the show that there have been very, very high turfs on Brazil that are effectively political tariffs for actually putting one Jair Bolsonaro in prison for, you know, the, the mere crime of attempting to overthrow the government to install himself as the ruler of Brazil. Now, there has been, over the past few weeks, there's been some sort of ratcheting down of a lot of the tariffs. There's been a bunch of goods that have been exempt from the tariffs as part of Trump's sort of widespread efforts to, like, lower food prices because there's a bunch of food goods that are being exempt from this stuff. And there was also, very recently we got an actual call between Trump and Lula, which seems to have gone fairly well. You know, at least it seems to have been cordial. The two seem to both be coming out of it saying, like, oh, we agree on things. Ah, it's going to go great. And this is to a large extent an attempt to do a replay of Lula's positive relationship with the Bush administration the last time he was in power, where. And this is, you know, this has been a trend in the sort of the original pink tide and in this government where you have a kind of mix of the sort of pink tide central left governments in Latin America, where Lula has traditionally been the one who's been sort of playing with the U.S. more. And as we're seeing right now, you have the US gearing up for potentially a war in Venezuela, and there's been a whole bunch of conflict with Colombia. But Lula seems to be trying to sort of play the role that he played in the 2000s. We'll see how that goes. Trump is astonishingly, significantly more unstable than George W. Bush, which is just. Good Lord. Oh, God. Okay, but enough. Oh, my God. They finally found a president who's less coherent and more unhinged than George W. Bush. The final piece of news that we need to touch on is the US's chief trade negotiator gave an interview with Politico and this is, per Yahoo News, basically talked to Politico and told them that Trump is considering, you know, is talking about leaving or renegotiating the usmca, which is the trade agreement that he negotiated to replace NAFTA in 2020.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Roll this back again.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

This is his deal.

[Sophie Lichterman]

He's talking about leaving or renegotiating his deal.

[Mia Wong]

This was his big thing in 2020. His big. One of his big things was, oh, I abolished nafta.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Oh, I created this deal.

[Mia Wong]

And, you know, everyone at the time was like, well, this is just like NAFTA with, like the edges filed off, you know, but, like, this is sort of the point that we're at in Trumpian trade policy, where it's like, ah, we're getting ripped off by Mexico and Canada in the trade deal that I signed. As Garrison is, is fond of saying, the defining political question of our time is who was president in 2020?

[Kirsten Zitlau (Primrose's lawyer)]

Brother, you, you, you did this.

[Mia Wong]

This, this, this was your trade deal. And Somehow. Somehow. Now, you know, in terms of real terms, right, this is actually a massive deal. So this deal has a six year term. It was negotiated in 2020, which means it's coming up next year. And this is a big enough deal that there's already sort of a full court press in the press. You can see the New York Times running it, where every single faction of capital, not every single faction, but a whole bunch of factions of capital are getting every single think tank group and, you know, like Policy Research Institute or whatever together to be like, please don't get rid of this. Because the thing about the usmca, and this is something we've, we've talked about to some extent in terms of Canada and Mexico tariffs. But one of the really important things about the tariffs that have been imposed on Mexico and Canada and the tariff rates are extremely high, is that those tariffs haven't been applied to goods that are covered by the usmca. And this has been a crucial lifeline to allow trade to not be annihilated by those American tariffs. And if Trump pulls out of it and suddenly those goods are covered by these tariffs, it's going to be a really, really significant economic hit for everyone in the world eventually. But for the US And Mexico and Canada, this is going to be a massive deal. And I want to kind of close on a kind of broader point about this for a second, which is that like, like we're not pro nafta. No, NAFTA was bad. Part of the reason the Trump administration was able to do this was because of the ways that NAFTA sort of hauled out and destroyed vast sections of the American working class and also the Mexican working class. This has not been good for anyone really involved in this. One of the things that happens, if you go into the economic literature, one of the episodes I did a while back talking about US And Mexico and the history of trade policy, there sort of talks about this, which is that if you go back into the economic literature, all of the economics people have had to admit that the leftists from the 90s or whatever were right, that this was not going to benefit the Mexican working class. It hasn't. But on the other hand, Trump's sort of, this is also not benefiting the Mexican or American working classes. Nothing that these people do on either side really do. If you want to look at what actual sort of resistance to NAFTA looks like and what effective resistance NAFTA looks like, look at the Zapatistas, whose rebellion was sparked by nafta and who went into revolt on the day the NAFTA went into effect. But Trump has been able to very effectively kind of be the person who comes in as the. I'm the champion of the workers, et cetera, et cetera, because I'm renegotiating the evil trade deals. And now our good American workers will no longer be exploited by evil Mexican or Chinese workers, which has been an extremely effective political strategy for him and is also this sort of national fascist program that he's running is sort of based on this kind of trade policy and on manipulating the sentiments of people who got actually screwed over by nafta. So, yeah, that's where we're going to close on this as Trump is thinking about pulling out. That is a huge deal. And, yeah, this has been tariff talk.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Let's.

[Garrison Davis]

Let's go to an ad break real quick. We'll be right back.

And we're back. Garrison, tell me. Tell me something less horrific than what James just told us before. Mia's tariff texture.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

I missed a pot. I missed a pot. Okay, do you want to guess how they were making money for part of this? According to the indictment, this is the.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Texas men who wanted to invade the island. How are they making money?

[Kirsten Zitlau (Primrose's lawyer)]

Crypto.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

No, it's worse than that.

[Sophie Lichterman]

That's a good guess, Sophie.

But you said it's worse than that. Oh, no.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah.

[Garrison Davis]

Manipulating Cam girls.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

In a sense, it appears they were producing child sexual abuse material.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Oh, yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Wow.

[Garrison Davis]

This is one of the worst. I mean, obviously it's still allegedly, but.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Like, this is one of the worst.

[Garrison Davis]

Things I've ever heard, and I don't even know how to react.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Huh.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah, he was.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

He received.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

He was prosecuted on the UCMJ for that previously this year. Yeah, I was prosecuted in. I'm just reading a task and Purpose article which builds on the indictment, but there it says so he's arrested in July and has since been court martialed. Ah. So good times. Good times in the.

[Primrose]

Wow.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

In the Air Force.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Yeah. Well, I can't. I can't believe the Air Force has done something wrong. Finally, the first light on our proud and glorious Air Force.

Maybe the biggest national news story kicked off the day before Thanksgiving, not just because of what happened, but then all of the fallout that has resulted from this incident, which James will report on afterwards. But, yeah, let's go back to the day before Thanksgiving where two National Guard troops from West Virginia on assignment in Washington, D.C. it's a part of Trump's crime crackdown. Were shot on patrol a few blocks away from The White House. Other Guard members fired back and tackled the shooter. One of the national guard members, a 20 year old named Sarah Beckstrom, died from gunshot injuries on Thanksgiving. The other 24 year old, Andrew Wolf, has so far survived, remains hospitalized.

[Garrison Davis]

Wow.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah.

[Sophie Lichterman]

A 29 year old man, Romanulla Lockenwall, is charged with first degree murder and assault with intent to kill. The criminal complaint alleges he shouted Allah Akbar as he fired. Lacamal came to the United States as a part of Operation allies welcome in 2021, which moved US assets out of Afghanistan as the Taliban gained control of the region. Lockenwell was later granted formal asylum under Trump. This past April, friend of the alleged shooter told the New York Times that Lockenwell joined the CIA backed paramilitary squad Unit 03 to earn money for his family and get medical training rather than for ideological reasons. And when he returned from stints with the Zero Unit, his personality changed and he was less socially outgoing. To quote from the Times, quote, Lockenwell told others in his village that he had been shaken by seeing so many bodies and bloodshed in his role with the 03 unit. Quote.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah.

[Sophie Lichterman]

According to a volunteer who worked with his family, Lockenwell's mental health started rapidly declining in early 2023. He begun self isolating, withdrawing from work and family, stopped paying rent and faced eviction in 2024. This volunteer wrote in an email to an immigrant nonprofit group which was obtained by the AP in the New York Times, which reads that Lockenwell, quote, has not been functional as a person, father and provider since March of last year. 23. His behavior has changed greatly, unquote. When Lockemal emerged from quote, unquote, dark isolation, it was to engage in, quote, unquote, recognized less travel. According to this volunteer, long, seemingly pointless road trips across the country.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah, and he seems to be behaving in a way that like you said, suggests he has some PTSD or like.

[Sophie Lichterman]

No PTSD from, from engaging in combat. This is very common among veterans and mental health support for specifically these people in this, in this paramilitary unit probably doesn't exist. Right. Does not exist the same way it does for veterans of the United States military, which already is a lacking service.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah, yeah, that's.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

I mean these, the shit that these guys did was dark. I've included in the, in the show notes a link to a Human Rights Watch report, but like there's a reason that they weren't specifically under, in theory they were under the, the Afghan like Ministry of Defense command, but in practice they operated outside either chain of Control. They did kill or capture missions. There are multiple reports of them killing everybody in a house and then it being the wrong house. Like, really stuff that is going to stay with someone. Right. Unless they're like, you know, pretty nuts.

[Sophie Lichterman]

No. Extremely horrifying.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah. Terrifying stuff. Pretty much immediately after the Trump administration.

Began calling for various immigration restrictions. Based on this, right now, it's worth noting that Lock and while entered the United States as part of Operation Allied Welcome. Right. But then he received asylum.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Under the Trump administration. So that would have been this year. Right. Like, I'm not entirely sure why he went asylum rather than Special Immigrant Visa. And both the pathways that are open to Afghan people.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Right.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

SOV has some benefits, but also it has some different things that they'd have to jump through. Like one of them would be, I believe, to get an officer to write a recommendation. And maybe CIA folks aren't into doing that. So following this, the US Immediately began to call for a crackdown on Afghan migrants. And as we'll see more broadly on migrants, I think it's important to contextualize this globally because it's part of a crackdown on a nation which has seen nearly half a century of war. Right. 90% of the 10 million people who fled Afghanistan reside in Pakistan or Iran. I've reported on this before on this show. But Iran has deported more than a million Afghan people since 2023.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Right.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

And they have very few pathways to permanent residency anywhere among refugees. Afghan people have it particularly difficult. On Tuesday, the USCIS Citizenship and Immigration Services issued a memo ordering its employees to place on hold all asylum green card and citizenship form applications from quote, unquote, high risk countries and to investigate all arrivals from them since 2021. They are also placing a hold on all Forms I589, which is the application for asylum and for withholding of removal, regardless of where the person is from.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Right.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

So we have this specific halt on asylum for Afghan nationals. It comes first. And then following that, we have these 19 high risk countries. The high risk countries are listed in Presidential Proclamation 10949, which was issued back in June. I'll just read out the names so people are aware. Afghanistan, Burma, Chad, Republic of the Congo, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Haiti, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen, Burundi, Cuba, Laos, Sierra Leone, Togo, Turkmenistan and Venezuela. If you recall us covering this back then, you will remember that the reason cited in that proclamation is percentage of visa overstays. This doesn't have anything to do with risk. Right. Other than risk of overstaying one's visa. They do not justify the inclusion of these countries based on the potential for people there to do terrorism.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Right.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

At least not all of them. Yeah, it's worth pointing out, I guess, that percentage visa overstays isn't that useful of a figure because if you have 10 people and one overstays, then that's only one person. But it's also a 10% overstay rate. Right. So it doesn't look at raw numbers. Nonetheless, this would mean from the way I'm reading it, that any application with these people on it might be paused. So that could include if someone had applied to have a spouse or family member come over and obtain legal status. Right. Or if someone was sponsoring someone or they were a dual national. They're like a Burundian American, for example. We will see how long this lasts. Trump has previously failed to get a total asylum ban, but for the meantime, this is catastrophic for people attempting to seek asylum or permanent residency in the US the only sort of upside that I can see on an upside but not terrible thing is that I don't think this would pause the work permit clock. So people have been listening to my series this week. They will have learned about the work permit clock because this is government action, not an action from individuals. I don't think it will pause that clock. I guess to just wrap up the migrant crackdown stuff, Trump announced via a truth that quote, I am as president of the United States hereby terminating, effective immediately, the temporary protected status program for Somalis in Minnesota. In the Thanksgiving message, he also repeated a number of claims about migrants and used a slur to describe Tim Walls.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Yeah, he called him R word. And I think it is worth saying.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah.

[Sophie Lichterman]

He has reiterated this multiple times on camera when asked by reporters.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah, great stuff.

[Sophie Lichterman]

And this is specifically in reference to reporting which has come out of Minnesota about a series of like fraudulent claims based on like COVID 19 food and housing assistance programs this state was running and people who were abusing those programs for their own financial benefit. And some of these specific instances are now being used to attack the entire Somali community in Minnesota.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah, it's worth noting that the percentage of the Somali community which is on TPS is very small all. It's probably a few hundred people. I don't know how those Covid assistance programs like overlap with one's immigration status. Right. But it's worth noting that. It's also worth noting like I've linked to the statute in the show notes, the Somali TPS extends until March of 2026. It probably won't be renewed then.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Right.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

That's what the Trump administration has been doing is sunsetting tpss for all kinds of people. The statute does not give the President power to. To end the tps, certainly not on a state by state basis.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Right, yeah, that's a good point.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

The notice of revocation would appear in the Federal register and the TPS would then have 60 days. If it was being revoked, the people would have 60 days to act on that information.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Right.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

You can't just post it. That's not how this works. As of today, when I checked the Federal Register, the last entry for the Somali TPS with its renewal last year, so there appears to have been no actual legal action taken on this. But nonetheless, there has been ICE enforcement. Right. There are videos of ICE officers specifically asking people if they are Somali in Minnesota, which is troubling. I think that's about all the ICE crackdown stuff, I have. Guess Greg Bevino's in Louisiana now. So there's been a lot of discussion this week and House hearings about the drone strike that began the United States campaign of drone strikes against small boats in both the Caribbean and the Pacific.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Right. So called narco terrorists, James.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah, so, yeah, I think so called is doing a lot of work there. There seems to be a lot of debate about whether Pete Hegsest directly ordered a second strike on survivors from the first strike. Hess had denied this, saying, quote, the thing was on fire and it exploded. You can't see anything. This is called the fog of war.

[Sophie Lichterman]

That's not the fog of war.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

It's not what it means.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

You're not at war. You're in a suit in a room watching a TV screen.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Also, it doesn't refer to like literal smoke and fog. I'm sorry, this is like absurd.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

This is a ludicrous claim, right?

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yes. There have been times where I have been in places. Like for instance, I was in Rojava a couple of years ago and we were being bombed.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Right.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

The way for me to get information, it was better for me to like go online and find stuff because the access to information on the ground in conflict times can be difficult. That is not the case when you're in D.C. watching a screen readout.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Right.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

That is why we have people who are not in combat making these decisions. The White House has claimed that Admiral Bradley, who was JSOC commander at the time, ordered the strike. Tom Cotton today claimed that two people in the video were trying to roll the boat to get back in the fight.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

What?

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

That's not a thing. That one can do. Like, they're not in. Just to be clear, they're not in. Like a kayak here. Like, this is in what I would call a cigarette boat. Like. Like a fast speedboat. You can't roll those like that.

[Garrison Davis]

I don't understand.

[Sophie Lichterman]

They were not engaged in combat?

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

No.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Like, I don't see any evidence of. These people were equipped to, like, certainly not to fight against a drone. Right.

[Sophie Lichterman]

No, I guess. Why does this matter? Right. Because these people are dead regardless.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Why does the emphasis on this second strike matter more than simply attacking them the first time? Why is. Could this result in Hegseth being in a degree of trouble? Why are they so defensive about the second strike?

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Fair question. It is a very clear violation of the US Military's own law of war manual, which I have linked and the Geneva Conventions. To kill someone who's demonstrably. Or de. Combat.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Right.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Like out of combat, that is a shipwrecked sailor, I. E. A wounded soldier who's thrown away their weapon. These people were very clearly not fighting. From every report that we've seen, this has been part of the way that war is conducted for centuries. Picking up shipwrecked sailors after sinking a boat, etc. I'm not saying this has always happened. The US has done double tap strikes for a long time. Yeah. There has been. I should just clarify. I guess there has been some debate about the semantics of the word double tap. First of all, that's not important. What is important is that they killed people who were not fighting, who are out of combat, and who are clinging to a burning shipwrecked boat. A double tap does generally refer to a strike and then a subsequent strike which is focused on killing the people who came to rescue the people hit in the first strike. There was no one to rescue these people. But I don't think that, like, that's. That's not what's at stake here.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Right.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

That. That is. It doesn't matter what term we use to describe this other than war crime. There were double trap strikes at the time that I spoke about when I was in Rojava, where they did bomb ambulance crews. And yeah, that is absolutely reprehensible. But what happened here is also reprehensible as it's being recounted to us. Eventually this video will come out, I'm sure. More broadly, the United States seems to be signaling intent to continue its campaign against Maduro, saying it will begin land strikes, quote, unquote, soon.

[Sophie Lichterman]

What?

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah. Like, this is extremely worrying, right? Like, yeah, Trump, of course, the great peace president who has ended what is it like nine wars.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Trump the dove, I think is what he prefers to be called.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Sure. Okay, perfect. It's a hell of a visual.

The people of Venezuela are the ones who are going to suffer.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Right?

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Like it's not going to be regime officials for the most part.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Venezuela is a vast, mountainous, jungly country. It's an easy place for us to do land war. Not a particularly easy place for us to do drone warfare either. You know, I've written a lot about the United States drone campaign in Syria and the disaster that was.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Right.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

And the amount of what they consider to be acceptable civilian casualties. We don't have any indications from this DoD or from Hegseth that he will seek to minimize those. This could be shaping up to be a disaster for the people of Venezuela.

[Sophie Lichterman]

I mean, yeah, I find it unlikely that Hegseth will actually fall into trouble. International law, because of this, people always get away. And I mean, you can see how Trump already hardened number of war criminals earlier this year.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

And in his first administration.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Right, and in his first administration.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Sophie Lichterman]

As much fun as it is to, to be like, haha, I, I'd like to, I'd like to see old pate Hegseth wiggle his way out of this jam.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yes, he will.

[Sophie Lichterman]

I think he's expected to do so quite easily.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

I mean, international law doesn't exist for, for people in the global North. It's a thing that they do to prosecute African people for the most part. But yes, very unlikely that we will see Hexus in the Hague for this. Still bad though.

[Sophie Lichterman]

We'll go on another ad break and be right back.

All right, we are back. We would like to now explore, expand and clarify some of our previous previous discussion of Zoron's White House meeting with Donald Trump and some statements around ICE raids and ICE detainers. Let's start by clarifying this 170 serious crimes number.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah.

[Sophie Lichterman]

While answering a question, Zoron said, quote, we discussed ICE in New York City and I spoke about how the laws we have in New York City allowed the city government to speak to the federal administration about roughly 170 serious crimes, unquote. This 170 number is in reference to Local Law 58 Administrative Code 9 131, which was passed in 2014 and strengthened new York's sanctuary laws and required that they only honor ICE detainers when presented with a judicial warrant issued by an Article 3 federal judge or federal magistrate judge based on probable cause and when the subject of the detainer and warrant is either listed in a terrorist database or has been convicted of a violent or serious crime. Now, the term violent or serious crime refers to a list of approximately 170 crimes which is listed in Local Law 54.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

I think there's a five year limit as well.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Right.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Like it has to be within five years.

[Sophie Lichterman]

So there's a number of like they.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Like stack on each other.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Yeah. Like this is just a one of many, like, amendments strengthening their sanctuary laws. And I'm mentioning it specifically to Clarify where this 170 number comes from and where people can find all of the criminal codes that are listed, which is again, approximately 170 crimes.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah.

[Sophie Lichterman]

And the change that this local law did is that this person does not have to just be accused of one of these crimes, but actually be convicted or listed in a terrorist database.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah.

[Sophie Lichterman]

And these are mostly like violent felonies.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah. The law that Garrison refers to lists them by penal code number. So I'm working on expanding those into a list of like, words that human beings can understand.

[Garrison Davis]

Yeah, sure.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Just because I think people generally don't understand sanctuary protections. The sanctuary laws are not like a. They're not the same in every state. They're not the same in every city, in every state. And I think a lot of people have an understanding of them which could do with being improved. So I'm going to probably do a whole episode on that. I think with regard to the list of crimes in New York, I would prefer to do that as a print piece because it's just better if someone could find it on the Internet. And that doesn't work as well with podcasts. Other stuff regarding this, just so people are aware. Right. Like federally, one could be deported for a huge range of crimes, from violent crime to theft over $10,000 to a vast range of quote, unquote crimes involving moral turpitude. The problem, of course, is that we have 50 different states with 50 different sets of laws and we have to map federal regulations onto them. There is some Supreme Court case law about how we do that. Crimes involving moral turpitude can be things that you might consider extraordinarily minor, like turnstile hopping.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

I'm going to do a whole episode on these because again, I think you could see in that press conference. So when Zoran spoke about immigration, Trump tried to move the topic to deporting criminals.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

And the people who are being deported as criminals, whilst the DHS Twitter feed wants to highlight people who have been convicted of murder and things. And that's by far like an edge case.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Yeah. And I think that's why he mentioned the 170, like serious or violent crimes. And like, specifically that those are the ones that the New York sanctuary laws do have this, quote, unquote, cooperation on. And like in, in a meeting, Zoran said that he and Trump talked about how current ICE operations in New York City have, quote, unquote, very little to do with serious crime. With these, with the crimes listed on these detainers.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah. And that's a broad thing across the United States. Right. Like even, you know, we spoke about this a couple of weeks ago, but like, if you look at Charlotte, right, where they have. They are legally bound to honor all ice detainers by HB10, you've still got ICE out and about raiding people and you have sheriffs complaining about ICE not picking people up. Right. The detainer. I guess I should explain what a detainer is as well. A detainer is an extra 48 hour hold. It doesn't mean that you just like lock them up forever. It means that you hold them for 48 hours such that ice can come in and collect the person. Because ice is so focused on, I don't know what you want to call it, grabbing people off the street.

[Garrison Davis]

Yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

It seems that they're not collecting these people. There's been some pushback, like on straight up economic grounds in some states because, like, detaining people is quite expensive. Right. So detaining people for long periods of time and ICE just not showing up, I can see how not, not to give support to sheriff's departments or whatever. But like rural sheriff's departments which run limited budgets would start to get pissed off after a time about holding people. But yeah, that is what a detainer is.

[Garrison Davis]

Got it.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

ICE doesn't necessarily have to abide by local sanctuary laws. And what we have seen is that, like, cops are cops and they will make mistakes and if someone gets handed over, you can't take them back if the cops fuck that up.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Yeah. I mean, this is part of the other things that Zoran campaigned on to like, strengthen sanctuary protections. And specifically in the section of his policies on, quote, unquote, Trump proofing New York City, he talks about, like ending illegal ICE cooperation on Rikers island where MICE is currently stationed, which does go against sanctuary laws. And yes, you talked about ending that as well as providing $165 million in funding for immigration legal defense services in the cities, which would be a massive increase than what is Currently provided.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah.

[Sophie Lichterman]

As well as just like, limiting interactions with police.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Right.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Because the more you interact with the police, the more likely is that you might accidentally or quote, unquote, accidentally get put into trouble. Even though, you know, police in New York are not supposed to ever ask someone that what their immigration status is or, or cooperate with ICE requests that do not, you know, fall. Fall under these, this, this specific attainer law. But I mean, in terms of, like, ways to limit interactions with police, this goes back to some very basic ideas on like, you know, addressing the economic conditions that create crime in the first place, as well as the Department of Community Safety, which Zoran intends to create, which will provide new mental health services, crisis response, and homeless outreach outside of the nypd.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah. Like, not criminalizing homelessness and not criminalizing parking are probably two of the most meaningful things that you can do to limit police interaction. Specifically police interactions from documented people.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Yeah. And I mean, in terms of like, turnstile hopping or like, fair evasion, it's. It's complicated in New York. I mean, this isn't going to be a, something that they honor a detainer for. But in terms of like, you know, just talking about, like, the. Yeah. How weird and specific each state's laws are. Like, turnstile hopping can be a misdemeanor crime in New York due to, due to, like, theft of services. It can also just be a civil infracture. It can in it, but it's up to the officer to decide whether they want this to turn into a criminal misdemeanor or a civil infracture and just pay a hundred dollar fine. Even this has, like, caused confusion among, like, immigrants and immigrant rights attorneys over, like, dealing with, like, old, old fare evasion cases and being like, does this now, like, disqualify me from certain things or does this, like, you know, present a threat of being deported if I, if I declare this in, like, whatever, like, citizenship or the green card meeting they may, they may have scheduled.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Sophie Lichterman]

And yeah, not, not criminalizing, fair evasion would be. Yeah, huge. And, and if someone's able to make, you know, free buses, that'll do, you know, a considerable dent in preventing cases where fare evasion could be used as, like, a pretext to federally deport someone.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah, yeah, because that person or that person could leave New York and be somewhere else. Right. Or they could just get swept up in ice. Workplace raid. And that could be used as a pretext. Like, there are many reasons why even if it's sanctuary protected, that person could still be vulnerable because of that prosecution, like you said.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Yeah. I mean, and those sorts of raids are still happening in New York. An attempted raid happened in Canal Street.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Last week. It was prevented from being carried out by people who literally blocked ICE from leaving the parking garage that they were in. And NYPD then arrested a few protesters. It remains to be seen how Zoran will handle incidents like this going forward. He still does not become the mayor for about 30 days. Right. But a spokesperson for the mayor elect has said that so on, quote, has made it clear, including to the president, that these raids are cruel and inhumane and fail to advance genuine public safety. New York city's more than 3 million immigrants are central to our city's strength, vitality and success. The mayor elect remains steadfast in his commitment to protecting the rights and dignity of every single New Yorker, upholding our sanctuary laws and de escalation rather than use of unnecessary force, unquote. Believe that last sentence could be read as in reference to the police conduct while handling anti ites protests.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah, quote, unquote.

[Sophie Lichterman]

De escalation rather than use of unnecessary force. But this is not something that they have talked about much.

[Garrison Davis]

Curious to see when he's actually the mayor, what will happen here.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sophie Lichterman]

I mean, and that's, that's, that's a part of, like, what governing is going to look like in this case, which is just kind of.

[Garrison Davis]

Sure.

[Sophie Lichterman]

It's hard to say. We've never really had a high profile, like, you know, DSA person who previously advocated, like, defunding or abolishing the police become the mayor of the city. Yeah. And I think this kind of relates to, like, so much of what the project in New York is around New York City, DSA and Zoron to rather than just like, you know, be like, chasing electoral cars and then crashing once you have control. Exorcists were interested in, like, actually running the city and providing a legitimate example that democratic socialist policies can deliver on promises for workers and improve life in New York. And if this project succeeds, it can be pointed to and replicated by others. And there's a very strict focus on, like, making sure that he's able to succeed on a section of, like, economic policies. He's not in a federal position. Right. He's, he's not running on abolishing isis. He can't as the mayor of New York. And like, I think it's very unclear right now, like, what a politics of abolishing ICE really looks like outside of like, this, like, contemplative, like, reflexive and like, Judgmental politics, which falls further and further away from, like, taking steps to do action. Right.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah. I mean, a politics. Abolishing ICE looks like the United States up until 2001. Right. Like, we didn't have ICE.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Well, but, like, from now, like, what would it mean to actually stop deportations completely? Like, what will that look like? What can be done politically to do that? Right. And Zorin's not doing this because Zoran's the mayor of New York City. He cannot run for president. People in his orbit could run for the House and Senate and push forward bills to do this, and they might over time, but, like, there is a difference between being the mayor of a local municipality and, like, what a legitimate politics of. Of actually stopping our current process of deportations. What that really looks like and how to actually achieve that, which very little thought is being put put towards among the American left right now. And it. And it kind of. It falls back on these, like, reflective or, like, contemplative statements.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah. There have been proposals put forward for a long time on what it would look like to create better legal pathways and fewer deportations. Right. Like, those have existed.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Sure.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Like, you can look specifically at what people were trying to get Biden to do in 2020. Right. Which he obviously completely failed to do.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

And in fact, made things much worse. But, like, those policy proposals exist, and they're well thought out and well planned from people who've been working into space for decades. Right. What Mamdani can do is, like, what they call in political science, like, the coattails effect.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Totally.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Right. As a very popular candidate, people can ride on his coattails. And I think it's important in that sense that he continues rhetorically to oppose what ICE is doing, which, like, that statement you read, did. Right. But it's very important that he. If he's able to successfully have his administration in New York and, like, we. We will see how goes in that regard. But if he is, and there is an electoral project that can arise based on that, then, like, yeah, it is very important that they remain in lockstep. That, like, we are not going back. We're not gonna have a Democrat come President 28 and just do a Joe Biden again. Right. Where things get worse.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Like.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah. So in that sense, I think it, like, it needs to be something that everyone in that movement retains. I guess, like, not uniformity is the wrong word. You know, but you know what I mean? It continues to be something of a North Star for whatever is emerging to the left of the dnc.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Yeah. And Like, I also, like, I guess, clarify some things I would have said last week and not claiming that sheerly the, the process of honoring these detainers will, like, vaguely, in a causal sense, results in less ICE raids in a city. I mean, these detainers are, they are legally required, even under the sanctuary laws, to be, to be followed. And I think part of what Zorro was doing was trying to redirect the President's thought away from these larger raids to these specific serious crimes. And I think in some of this is based on Trump kind of has like, the last person in the room syndrome of he kind of just likes or, or, or follows or parrots whoever the last person in the room was and like, what they told him. I'm not saying that like, honoring these, these legally required detainers is like, is simply harm reduction in that sense. This is more so in reference to the ongoing negotiations between Mamdani and Trump to limit ICE action in the city outside of these detainer requests, which do address serious crime, which Trump and Mamdani saw as a point of commonality on is they, they want New York to be a safe place for people focusing on that as opposed to these general ICE raids. And there's been like, some slight movement on this. Raids have continued, but there's been slight movement in terms of Trump, at least for now, pulling out of his plans to deploy National Guard to assist ice.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah.

[Sophie Lichterman]

And like, that is the, the single point where we see some movement on.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah.

[Sophie Lichterman]

And this will be something that in terms of raids like on Canal Street. Well, we'll see if this actually makes a larger impact once he takes office and continues these negotiations.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

If National Guard are assisting ice, is that, like, because they can't directly do the, the immigration enforcement?

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Right.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Well, I mean, assisting ICE in the way that they have in Washington D.C. yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Like, in terms of like, quote, unquote, protecting officers or quote, unquote. Yeah.

[Sophie Lichterman]

And, you know, the proposals to do so in Chicago and Portland, which are cotton, like legal limbo, but I mean, the. Portland was more specifically for the ICE facility.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah. Protecting federal buildings kind of deal versus.

[Sophie Lichterman]

In Washington D.C. they were like, on patrol with ICE. Like, they were like, roving around and.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Doing roadblocks and shit.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Yeah. And like, much of this, quote, unquote, crime crackdown, as Bridget's reported on our show, really is actually a way to do like, enhanced immigration enforcement. Yeah. There's a lot of fear in New York and discussions with people in New York on, like, how are we going to handle this happening here?

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah.

[Sophie Lichterman]

And this is like the one point of movement that we've seen is Trump's pulling out of these plans which previously were quite certain he wants to go one by one and invade these cities.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah. New York. You also have the added factor that New York is technically in that border enforcement zone. Right.

[Sophie Lichterman]

As is Chicago.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah. I guess most of these places have been Chicago. Portland is Los Angeles is because of the Los Angeles they deployed Border patrol. That's another thing that it could happen in New York but like thus far hasn't on a massive scale. But yeah, it remains to be seen. Right. Like Trump has this like operation at large that Bavino controls that he could deploy to New York and it'll be deployed to Boston where Michelle Wu has like taken a different approach, like. And yeah, I guess we'll, we'll have to continue waiting and seeing. It's really heartening to me that people showed up in New York as well, you know, like.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Oh yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

That people in New York showed up on Canal street. Like that is.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Yeah. And prevented ICE from doing any detentions or arrests.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah. And I think like they, they like, like ICE eventually had to leave to New Jersey. Is that right? Like they had to go through the. The tunnel or whatever. Like to tunnel.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Yeah, the tunnel of shame.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah. But like that, that is like that is what kept those people safe. Right. Like they didn't have to wait for Eric Adams or Mum Dani or anyone else. Like it. It was members of their community. Community. Yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Which is cool. Talking of communities, do you want to talk about the campus campus community and how freedom of speech is under threat on our campuses?

[Sophie Lichterman]

Well, freedom of religion is under threat, James.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Okay.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Religion to.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Freedom to.

[Garrison Davis]

I'm so, so tired.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

The freedom to.

[Primrose]

So tired.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

To cite a vibes based interpretation of the religion.

[Sophie Lichterman]

I mean, yeah, this unfortunately this story didn't infringe upon my freedom to not read horrible college essays.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Gary said. That is a freedom that I have not had for many years.

[Sophie Lichterman]

No, no. And this is why I'm interested in your thoughts on this. A transgraduate instructor has been suspended from the University of Oklahoma after issuing a failing grade to a student's assignment to write a 650 word response to a study on if gender conformity is linked to popularity or bullying in middle school. This 20 year old psychology major, a junior, wrote in her response that she does not consider bullying a problem because quote, God made a male and female and made us different from each other on purpose and for a purpose, unquote.

The response was entirely personal. Opinion. And it does not even properly cite specific, like scriptures in the Bible. If, like, if I was to write like an unhinged, like, like Christian response, the least you could do is cite specific things. Should that be valid? No, but even this was not done.

[Garrison Davis]

It's like Bible fanfic.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

These are the vibes I get from Jesus.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Well, yeah, she just. She just gestured to her own interpretation of biblical gender roles.

[Primrose]

Right, sure, sure.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Quote, women naturally want to do womanly things because God created us with those womanly desires in our heart, unquote.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

She's women, like females. I guess.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Maybe.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Maybe she was going for a.

[Sophie Lichterman]

It's. It's all circular reasoning like this, all based on. Based on these, like, you know, biblical gender roles. And later the essay goes on to self contradict itself on ideas of gender norms versus gender stereotypes. And it's all just very poorly written. James, did you read the whole essay?

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

No.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Okay. It's not. It's not long. We are not going to read it all on air.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

I'll read it right now.

[Sophie Lichterman]

I want you to read the whole thing and just. Just give me in the chat your immediate thoughts. I dropped it in the Zoom chat.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

You have to understand that I might experience like, what's called a trauma reaction.

[Sophie Lichterman]

It's only two pages.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

So it's based on a review of.

[Sophie Lichterman]

An article based on a review of an academic study.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah.

[Sophie Lichterman]

On if gender conformity impacts bullying or popularity in middle school.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Okay.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Jesus Christ.

[Sophie Lichterman]

That's what she said, but not yet.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

She hasn't cited him specifically.

[Sophie Lichterman]

No, she never cites Jesus. Yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

God.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Oh, hell yeah. I love it when they get into like, Hebrew.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Garrison Davis]

Yes.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

I'm just getting. Penultimate paragraph. What class is this in?

[Sophie Lichterman]

Psychology. A psychology course.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

I'm going to sign this for a psychology class.

Wow. Yeah.

[Garrison Davis]

Can I just read like the last part out loud?

[Sophie Lichterman]

Okay. Sophie, you can. You can read the last part.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah.

[Garrison Davis]

My prayer for the world and specifically for American society and youth is that they would not believe the lies being spread from Satan that make them believe they are better off as another gender than what God made them. I pray that they feel God's love and acceptance as who he originally created them to be.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

So if you already inhabited that role.

[Garrison Davis]

Beautifully, like, thank you.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah.

[Garrison Davis]

Thank you.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Previously in, like the. The paragraph before I.

[Garrison Davis]

Do you want me to do it? Yeah, I unfortunately feel like I could. Really?

[Sophie Lichterman]

You're gonna be better equipped.

[Garrison Davis]

Embody this horrific person. Society pushing the lie that there are multiple genders and everyone should be whatever they want to be is Demonic and severely harms American youth. I do not want kids to be.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Teased or bullied and scoffed.

So, James, as a college college professor, what is your thoughts on this?

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

It's just a bad response to the question, right? There is not a single citation. The person has not done what they were instructed to do. They have just. It's a classic example of that. You have answered the question you wanted me to ask, not the question I have asked. Genre. And in this case, like I'm. I'm presuming there was some kind of rubric for grading. Like it seems like a. Like a. The sort of assignment that you would set once a week. Right. I don't know if it's an online course or they're just using an online lms, but the comment is clearly from an online lms.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Yeah, they do have the rubric and that TPUSA published the rubric was that you must write this 650 word reaction paper demonstrating that you have read the assigned article and includes a thoughtful reaction to the material presented in the article. Please remember that your reaction paper should not be a summary but rather a thoughtful discussion of some aspect of the article. Possible approaches to reaction papers include a discussion of why you feel the topic is important and worthy of study or not, or an application of the study or results to your own experiences.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

That's a broader prompt than I had otherwise imagined. Yeah, go ahead.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Other section is reaction. Papers are graded on a 25 point scale and are evaluated based on the following. Does the paper show a clear tie to the assigned article? 10 points. Does paper present a thoughtful reaction or response to the article rather than a summary? 10 points. And is the paper clearly written? 5 points. The best reaction papers illustrate the students have read the assigned materials and engaged in critical thinking about some aspect of the article. Article.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah, I mean they. The way you would do that is to. To reference the article more than in the first line of your paper and then never again.

[Garrison Davis]

Right, sure.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Which is what this person has done here? Like. Like at no point do they quote from the article, mention anything specifically the article says other than that it was very thought provoking. And then like they've seen the word gender and just gone off like a dog after a squirrel. Right. Like. Like.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Yes.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

And then completely gone off on one about. About. God. Yeah. That's a pretty broad prompt. That's broader than I would generally write a prompt, but that's okay with different approaches. They haven't specifically said in the prompt that they want people to cite their sources, which I normally do. But yeah, they haven't really shown any engagement with the article.

[Sophie Lichterman]

This isn't a freshman. This isn't a software. This is. This is a junior. Well, well into this semester, the response from the instructor was, quote, please note, I'm not deducting points because you have certain beliefs, but instead, I'm deducting points for you posting a reaction. Paper that does not answer the questions for this assignment, contradicts itself heavily, uses personal ideology over empirical evidence in a scientific class, and is at times offensive. While you are entitled to your own personal beliefs, there is an appropriate time or place to implement them in your reflections. I encourage all students to question or challenge the course material with other empirical findings or testable hypotheses. But using your own personal beliefs to argue against the findings of not only this article, but the findings of countless articles across psychology, biology, sociology, et cetera is not best practice. Unquote.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah. So this is a science class, I guess, right? Lei, like, this is not a scientific response. It is.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

No, entirely vibes based.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Before becoming a national news story, this grade was reviewed and approved by another instructor. This isn't just one instructor who happens to be trans. This isn't just their personal grade. This was reviewed by another instructor. But on Thanksgiving, TPUSA used this story to start a media blitz targeting this, quote, unquote, mentally ill professor. This graduate student instructor, which has resulted in her being placed on leave as the university, reviews this incident concerning illegal discrimination based on religious beliefs.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

That's not what that is. Right? Like. Like, I have watched a short form video about discrimination many times over my years instructing students. And like, this person wasn't discriminated against because of their beliefs. They were discriminated. They weren't discriminated against. They were graded for their response, which.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Was poor for failing to follow the rules of the assignment. And again, not. Not even as like a freshman who needs more clear, like, you know, first.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Year at Unique, like.

[Sophie Lichterman]

No, yeah, this is.

[Primrose]

This is.

[Sophie Lichterman]

This is a psychology major in her junior year.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Writing this response as a part of. It's As a part of a scientific. As a scientific psychology course where it's not about science at all. You're just talking about your own impression of what God wants out of gender roles and citing.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Not.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Not even citing, but like pointing towards the Holy Spirit and the Heavenly Father.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

And some Hebrew that you've translated. I know that most instructors who teach at universities now are very concerned about exactly this.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Right.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

About a student writing a paper, which is just bad. And then Them going to the pretty much TPUSA specifically.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Right.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

And being like, yes, they came against me because they hate Jesus. And I can imagine that that is worse for trans and gender non conforming and otherwise queer instructors. Just from conversations. Right.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Like no, absolutely. And like TP USA first gained popularity for its like professor watch list where people could report their like woke liberal professors. And this is, this is a core part of the TPUSA model is, is attacking academics and people who work in university in this instant has like caused speculation of like how much of this essay was genuine versus was this a intentionally bad essay to provoke this response.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Which we, we can't, we can't see that.

[Sophie Lichterman]

But the student has like risen to the ranks of like a minor conservative celebrity in these, in these past two weeks.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Because of this incident. And is doing like tpusa like speaking, speaking appearances, news appearances. There's been dozens of articles across right wing outlets on this. It's turned into a legitimate story for them.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

I do want to say as well, it appears Garrett and I discussed this before, but it appears that this person is a grad student and not like a.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Not a tenured professor.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Adjunct. Yes. Certainly not tenured.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Right.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Therefore they are much more vulnerable and that they have many fewer protections than a tenured professor would have. I don't know if they unionized. It depends on where they're teaching.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Right.

[Sophie Lichterman]

But like University of Oklahoma, that is questionable.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah, I mean possibilities points to know. But like this is a serious fucking problem for anybody teaching in these fields. Right. Especially graduate students. Like I say especially. I mean imagine you're a graduate student on a student visa.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Right.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Like how do you approach teaching this when you know that you could end up on the tpusa Instagram.

[Sophie Lichterman]

It's trying to chill speech. Right. This is, this is part of what they're doing. They're turning this into a free speech crusade for religious discrimination. But what this is actually doing is. Is chilling speech at universities by making it so you can't teach certain topics, especially if you happen to be trans yourself. Otherwise TPUSA in the right wing media ecosystem is going to turn your life into a living nightmare.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Yeah. I've repeatedly seen a First Amendment cited.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

In reference to this.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

This has not got anything to do with the First Amendment. Like the First Amendment doesn't give you the right to get a good grade for saying what the fuck. That's not in the First Amendment. But yeah, like Garrison said, it is chilling speech.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Good news. Oklahoma University Workers United is a union.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Sick. Okay, cool. And it includes grad student instructors.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Unclear.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Okay, hit us up O u w u and let us know.

[Sophie Lichterman]

Before we close, I do want to mention another story that's happened this week which is going to prompt of a future episode probably next week. The online gambling platform Kalshi. I've never said it before. I'm saying Kalshi has that a serial partnered with Kashi. I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. But the online gambling platform Kalshi is partnered with CNN and CNBC this past week to allow the news companies to use quote unquote real time prediction data for TV news segments and online content. This is not entirely surprising if people have been watching CNN like I have, like a complete maniac. Because specifically this, this past November, like this whole election season, news pundits on CNN have been using betting odds in place of polling data to weigh the likelihood of candidates winning elections. This has become an increasingly common practice specifically at CNN and now it appears spreading to other news platforms like cnbc. How she announcement of the CNN partnership reads quote, CNN Chief data analyst Harry Enton is an expert in translating what data and polling are saying on any given issue. And through this integration he can tap into real time prediction markets data to better inform and fact check his reporting, unquote. What fact checking his reporting with gambling data. Gambling odds from people who are betting on. Like if people are going to starve in Gaza, right? This is the sort, this is the sort of stuff that they, they bet on on Kalish. Not just who wins elections. Absurd.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Jesus.

[Garrison Davis]

I like that you've pronounced the name of this company several different.

[Sophie Lichterman]

See, I used to call it Khalif. This is the problem. I think it's, I think it's Kalshee. I think, I think Kalshee is correct. Yeah.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

There is one possible benefit to this. Will it stop Nate Silva being so fucking annoying?

[Sophie Lichterman]

No, it'll cause him to be more annoying. James, how can you not see that? This is, this is a part of the nature silverification of everything. And this, this is, this is what I want to talk about in the full piece. But, but no, there was, There was a Cena News segment in October 2025 where this data analyst talked about how the odds of Democrats winning the midterms are going down via citing the Kalshi odds. And then he did like three minutes of analysis using selective midterm voting data from 2017 and 2018 to support the movement in the gambling odds. Like that was the core piece of data he was trying to Explain the fuck.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

How big is this marketplace?

[Sophie Lichterman]

Pretty big.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Pretty big. Okay. So I couldn't just come in with like 500 bucks and tip it?

[Sophie Lichterman]

No, no, no. It depends on what you're doing for like these sorts of big. These like big races. No, but part of the real problem is, is if you're just tuning in to CNN and reading the graphics, it's really hard to tell that this, that these are gambling odds. Yeah, you're just seeing big percentages and they, they're only going to mention that it's from quote unquote betting markets or prediction markets like once at the beginning of the segment. After that they treat the numbers like actual polling data. So it's really, really manipulative. And unless you're like super paying attention to this whole segment, it'd be very easy to interpret these gambling numbers as genuine. As genuine poll information.

[Garrison Davis]

Wow.

[Sophie Lichterman]

It's incredibly dangerous to democracy and overall kind of bad and fucked up and it's going to be spreading. The Kalshi competitor Poly Market partnered with X, the Everything Applied and Yahoo Finance earlier this year to integrate their quote unquote prediction data into content on X and Yahoo Finance. It's only going to become more and more common.

[Garrison Davis]

Well, you're going to do a long form episode on this.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

I will, yeah. This sucks. I'm just looking at this website now. It's bad.

[Garrison Davis]

This sucks. I don't like this at all.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

If you would like to email us, you can do so by reaching out to coolzonetipson.

[Primrose]

Me.

[Sophie Lichterman]

That does it for us that it could happen here. We reported the news and now you can bet on the news.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

We reported the news.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly James)]

Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the.

[Narrator / Reporter (possibly Sophie or co-host)]

Heat death of the universe.

[Garrison Davis]

It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, Visit our website coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts you can now find sources for It Could Happen here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.

[Primrose]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.