Part One: Behind the Bastards Live Show: The Ballad of Bo Gritz

Summary

Behind the Bastards Live Show: The Ballad of Bo Gritz (Part One)

Podcast: Behind the Bastards
Date: November 18, 2025
Host: Cool Zone Media/iHeartPodcasts
Host: Nick (Robert Evans), Producer: Sophie Lichterman, Guest: Jason Petty aka Prop

---

Episode Overview

This live episode of Behind the Bastards dives into the wild, unsettling, and conspiratorial life of Bo Gritz—infamous Green Beret, right-wing icon, and the man who claimed to be the real-life Rambo. Broadcast from Portland to support the Portland Defense Fund, the show dissects Gritz’s journey from a military hero to a myth-making, self-serving figure in America's fringe movements. The episode unpacks Gritz’s actual military exploits, his habitual self-mythologizing and frequent lies, and how he became a catalyst for the enduring POW/MIA conspiracy theory that continues to shape American culture.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Set-Up: Who Is Bo Gritz?

• Nick recounts his first exposure to Bo Gritz through Louis Theroux’s Weird Weekends episode on survivalists.
  • [08:00–08:51]
  • “This was probably my first journalistic introduction to content on the militia movement…” — Nick [08:51]
• Gritz founded “Almost Heaven” in Idaho, a survivalist intentional community.
• Despite claims, he is only loosely connected to the John Rambo character, with much self-invented mythology.

2. Early Life: Mythmaking From the Start

• Gritz’s Oklahoma childhood: son of a WWII pilot shot down over France.
  • [11:51–12:59]
  • “Our man Bo was born January 18, 1939, in Enid, Oklahoma… about to be deeply rocked by war.” — Nick [11:51]
• Abandonment: Raised mainly by grandparents after his mother started a new life post-war.
  • “His mother… would later marry a master sergeant and remain with the occupation forces in Germany after the war. …I’m gone.” — Nick [15:56]
• Early signs of trouble and privilege: Expelled from high school for “precocious” lawbreaking (i.e., stealing cars, fireworks in school).
  • “The Post called him a self-styled juvenile prankster, which is a term that people who grow up to be law and order conservatives use to describe the crimes they committed as kids…” — Nick [16:48]

3. Military Career: Fact, Fiction, and Theft

• Gritz enters the Army, later joins the Green Berets after a checkered stint (including being court-martialed twice in basic training).
  • [18:38–27:47]
  • Lie: Claimed to have “chosen” military school, chosen West Point, and joined the Green Berets via a dramatic recruitment poster—all debunked by Nick.
• Marriage and familial patterns repeated:
  • “This is a classic family of abandoner. …That man has abandoned at least one family.” — Nick [29:32]
• Combat record: Gritz is, in fact, highly decorated (over 60 citations including Silver & Bronze Stars).
• Tales of war crimes abound (executions, forced confessions with C4), described with dark humor and pointed criticism.
  • [36:30–37:29]
  • “So if you don’t help us, you’re dead… attach C4 to the prisoner’s neck… another war crime drink…” — Nick [37:29]

4. The Special Forces Myth—and America’s Need for Heroes

• The show connects Gritz to the rise of “Special Forces worship” as a way of soothing post-Vietnam failures:
  • [39:24–41:52]
  • “Modern American worship of Special Forces operators begins as a distraction… That’s why the Rambo movies are such a big deal…” — Nick [39:24]
  • “We got paid for bringing them back. Dead or alive. We laid mines like sowing seeds. Among my greatest satisfactions in life, other than sex, was hearing the boom in the night…” — Gritz [41:52]
• Prop provides a sharp take: “You can’t be a prisoner of a war that ain’t happening, sir.” — Jay [56:54]

5. Post-Vietnam: Conspiracies, Grifting & The POW/MIA Flag

• After the war, Gritz runs Special Forces operations in Latin America, then is involved in training Mujahideen in Afghanistan (which the government denies, but Gritz has proof).
  • [47:23–48:46]
  • “They flew Afghan fighters to Sandy Valley, Nevada, where Beau taught them to use armor piercing ammunition…” — Nick [48:05]
• Gritz’s pivotal role in popularizing the conspiracy theory that scores of POWs were left behind in Vietnam—despite all credible evidence to the contrary.
  • The black POW/MIA flag, origin marks, and its connection to Gritz’s lies:
    • “This is our most conspiratorial flag in the United States.” — Nick [50:26]
• Nixon’s administration shifted US military messaging from “KIA, body not recovered” to “POW/MIA”, weaponizing it for pro-war sentiment.
  • “It didn’t matter why we were there in the first place. Our boys were there and by God, we were going to do anything to get our boys home, right?” — Nick [55:41]

6. The Gritz Machine: Manipulation, Lies, and Fundraising

• Gritz capitalizes on public grief, going on national tours and TV, raising money for (fictional) POW search-and-rescue projects.
  • “If you just give me some money, I’m totally gonna put together a volunteer force of American veteran commandos and we’re gonna return to Southeast Asia…” — Nick [60:14]
• Favorite fundraising sob story: the (invented) sacrifice of Sergeant George Hoagland (debunked by surviving squadmates and reporters).
  • “Greitz wasn’t even on that goddamn team. I was with George when he died. He just got blown away. Must have taken 150 rounds.” — Chuck Heiner (quoted by Nick) [65:32]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Lying and Self-Mythologizing:
  • “He’s someone who absolutely cannot control it. And what matters most to him isn’t the truth—it’s continuing to live as if he were a movie protagonist long after he’d gotten too old and slow to continue shooting people for the government.” — Nick [66:10]
• On War Crimes, Drinking Games, and Bitter Irony:
  • “So if you don’t help us, you’re dead… attach C4 to the prisoner’s neck… another war crime drink…” — Nick [37:29]
• On American Hero Worship:
  • “Modern American worship of Special Forces operators begins as a distraction…” — Nick [39:24]
• Prop on the Absurdity of War:
  • “You can’t be a prisoner of a war that ain’t happening, sir.” — Jay [56:54]
• On Generational Trauma:
  • “That’s his smoking pot is abandoning his family.” — Nick [29:52]
• On the POW/MIA Flag:
  • “This is our most conspiratorial flag in the United States.” — Nick [50:26]
• On State-Sanctioned Grift:
  • “This transformed the war from a political issue into a humanitarian one, trading public support for sympathy. Didn’t matter why we were there… Our boys were there and by God, we were going to do anything to get our boys home, right?” — Nick [55:41]

---

Important Timestamps

• Nick's introduction & purpose of live show / Portland Defense Fund: [03:10–06:00]
• Drinking game rules & jokes about survivalism and privilege: [06:42–08:51]
• Gritz’s childhood and family abandonment: [11:51–15:56]
• Gritz’s military career, lies about Green Berets, early war stories: [18:38–30:42]
• Accounts of war crimes in Vietnam: [36:30–39:24]
• Special Forces myth & Rambo connection: [39:24–41:52, 60:06–60:14]
• Latin America, Afghanistan, government denials: [47:23–48:46]
• POW/MIA conspiracy, flag origin, Vietnam era propaganda: [50:26–55:41]
• Manipulating public sympathy into a grift: [60:14–62:29]
• Debunking the George Hoagland story: [64:45–66:10]
• Wrap-up/intermission & promises for Part Two: [66:10–67:14]

---

Tone & Style

True to the Behind the Bastards style, this live episode combines sharp, well-researched historical breakdowns with biting cynicism, comedy, and irreverent asides between the hosts. The mood swings between somber reflection (on the horrors and absurdities of war and the US military) and gallows humor—in true “roast the worst people in history” fashion. Prop’s commentary adds flavor and perspective, especially calling out the racial and social dynamics underlying American mythmaking.

---

Summary Takeaway

Part One of “The Ballad of Bo Gritz” exposes how a decorated, charismatic soldier leveraged a soup of lies, American desperation for hero figures, and the wounds of the Vietnam War not only for personal fame—but to seed a toxic conspiracy culture that thrives in America to this day. The episode closes with the promise that, despite Gritz’s “redemption arc” being extremely unlikely, there’s still much more madness to explore in Part Two—including audience Q&A and, undoubtedly, more grifts, crimes, and cautionary tales.

---

End of Part One summary. Stay tuned for the conclusion in Part Two!

Transcript

[Nick]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Ad Voice 1]

Time for a sofa upgrade. Introducing Anabe sofas where designer style meets budget friendly prices. Every anibe sofa is modular allowing you to rearrange your space effortlessly. Perfect for both small and large spaces, Anabe is the only machine washable sofa inside and out. Say goodbye to stains and messes with liquid and stain resistant fabrics that make cleaning easy. Liquids simply slide right off. Designed for custom comfort, our high resilience foam lets you choose between between a sink and feel or a supportive memory foam blend. Plus our pet friendly stain resistant fabrics ensure your sofa stays beautiful for years. Don't compromise quality for price. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your living space. Today sofas start at just $699 with no risk returns and a 30 day money back guarantee. Get early access to Black Friday now. The biggest sale of the year can save you up to 60% off plus free shipping and free returns. Shop now at washablesofas.com offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Ad Voice 2]

High Key Listen to High Key, a.

[Nick]

Bold, joyful, unfiltered culture podcast.

[Jay]

Speaking of crunchy, what did you think.

[Nick]

Of your trainers run? I was amazing on that show, sister.

[Jay]

Were you?

[Nick]

I had some.

[Jay]

I was amazing and I was better than you would be if you went.

[Nick]

This is exactly why Bob is a good drag queen because she won't back down or she won't go double back on that lie. I felt like you came in real hot, real strong and that is just not the game girl. Yeah, I'm going to tell you why you're wrong and I I can't wait to do this. Please listen to High key on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ad Voice 3]

Head home for the holidays with Abercrombie and Fitch. We all know our calendars are about to get chaotic. For non stop plans, Abercrombie has the pieces to curate your perfect seasonal wardrobe. Sweaters and denim for casual plans, party dresses for nights out, and comfy matching sets for everything in between. Keep the chaos cute this season in Abercromb. Shop their new holiday outfits in the app, online and in stores.

[Ad Voice 2]

This is Jacob Goldstein from what's yous Problem? Business software is expensive and when you buy software from lots of different companies, it's not only expensive, it gets confusing. Slow to use, hard to integrate. Odoo solves that because all Odoo software is connected on a single affordable platform. Save money without missing out on the features you need. Odoo has no Hidden costs and no limit on features or data. Odoo has over 60 apps available for any needs your business might have, all at no additional charge. Everything from websites to sales to inventory to accounting, all linked and talking to each other. Check out [e-mail]. that's O D O O.com.

[Sophie]

Call Zone Media.

[Nick]

Anybody mind if I riker with the chair here a little bit? Welcome to behind the Bastards Live, our first live show. This is our first live show in a little while because I don't like leaving the house and am a deranged shut in who's increasingly losing his connection to the world and reality. Like a lot of people, presidents, for example. Before we get into the show today, I have a couple of very special people to introduce. First off, my producer and business partner, the inimitable Sophie Lichterman. And then of course, our guest for tonight, the host of Hood Politics and my good friend, Jason Petty, AKA Prop. Hey.

[Jay]

Yeah. What's clackamassin? You know what I'm saying? How y' all feeling? I've been planning that one all day. You know what I'm saying? What's clackamassin?

[Nick]

We workshop that. That was like $40,000 in development. Jay Leno's writers don't come cheap. But worth it, obviously.

[Jay]

Clearly.

[Nick]

So welcome everybody. Thank you for dealing with, you know, the line, the security measures and stuff. I think for obvious reasons, we're all a little bit extra careful these days. Why?

[Sophie]

Did something happen?

[Nick]

No, not that I'm aware of.

[Sophie]

Oh, okay.

[Nick]

So we've got a special night planned for everybody. First, I want to thank all of you for coming out and supporting the Portland Defense Fund. It's a really good cause. And y' all have raised north of $30,000 so far for them, which, yeah, that goes a long way. And especially considering most of the people who need help with that. We're talking about, like, houseless folks. We're talking about people who have absolutely no access to resources. And this is the only lifeline they're going to get and the only help they're going to get. So thank you all for helping to keep that lifeline alive.

[Sophie]

Round of applause for you.

[Nick]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Representative, round of applause for everybody in the audience except one of you motherfuckers. They know who they are.

[Sophie]

Not you, mom.

[Nick]

Also.

[Jay]

Just a quick show of hands. Cause it's a gang of white people in here.

[Nick]

It is Portland.

[Jay]

It is Portland. If you got like a drip of melanin in you, can you make some Noise. Real quick. I just want to see. Okay, you've got more than a drip. Make some noise. You got a lot of it. Make some noise. Okay, that's my section right there.

[Nick]

Okay.

[Jay]

Just making sure. I was like, it's gotta be. There's gotta be at least five of you all in here.

[Nick]

Prop. It's good that you introduce that, because our subject for these episodes.

[Jay]

Hey, look, it's not a bit. We never know. Like, we never know. Wait, wait, wait.

[Sophie]

Before we start, should we give them the drinking game rules?

[Nick]

We do have a drinking game. Yes, there are. Yeah. So the drinking game rules are as follows. First off, be responsible. Don't drive. Okay. Don't operate heavy machinery unless it seems like it would be really funny. So first off, take a drink if the subject of the podcast directly or indirectly kills somebody.

[Sophie]

Second of all, if Prof. Goes. You know what I'm saying?

[Nick]

No, no, no, Sophie, we can't legally, the people will die.

[Sophie]

I'm doing it.

[Jay]

Alcoholic poison. I'm trying to get y' all twisted, you know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying?

[Nick]

Yeah. If Robert says right, take a shot. Second of all, what was second?

[Sophie]

No, no, I'm doing that one.

[Nick]

Oh, God, no.

[Jay]

That counted third.

[Sophie]

Third is war crimes.

[Nick]

Yeah. When there's a war crime committed, take a drink.

[Jay]

Yep.

[Sophie]

And this one might really hurt everyone. But if I have to go. Robert, no.

[Nick]

So when I was a young man in about 2005 or 2006, I came across a bunch of torrents from a documentary TV series called Weird Weekends, made by a British feller named Louis Theroux. Now, one of the episodes released in 1998, was about survivalists. In it, Louis met a bunch of weirdo libertarian far right and some outright Nazi weirdos who were living off grid in rural Idaho. This was probably.

[Jay]

Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.

[Nick]

What about that? Doesn't stop scan rural Iowa.

[Jay]

Okay. When you were a young boy.

[Nick]

Yeah, I was like 18. 19.

[Jay]

Yeah. When I was a young boy, my father took me into the city to.

[Nick]

See a marching band. Yeah. Wow.

[Jay]

But rural Idaho. Okay, so I know where we're going with this.

[Nick]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. So this is probably my first journalistic introduction to content on the militia movement and the, at that point, still nascent post Oklahoma City bombing white supremacist movement. Much of the episode took place in an intentional community for these people named Almost Heaven, which was founded and operated by the subject of our episodes today, a famous figure in the right wing underground named Bo Grights. Yeah, we got some Bo knowers here.

[Jay]

We got some bow ites out this mud.

[Nick]

Some Boers. Yeah.

[Jay]

Now, so the spot was called Almost Heaven.

[Nick]

Almost Heaven. Almost. We'll get to there at the end. Yeah, they were really close. Okay. Just like all those people who nearly got raptured. Right?

[Jay]

I mean, look, almost so.

[Nick]

And by the way, Bo Gritz, the name is spelled G, R I T, Z, but it's pronounced Gritz.

[Sophie]

That's irritating.

[Nick]

It is. You can tell a lot about the journalists reporting on him because they'll either say that his name rhymes when they're writing about him, that his name rhymes with sights, as in rifle sights, or bites, which I think was a subtle way of expressing bias because Bo Grights definitely bites in like the late 90s sense of the word. When did that.

[Jay]

Yeah, like bite me, bite me.

[Nick]

Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the main claim to fame that you'll find if you read anything on Beau is that he was the guy whose real life inspired the character John Rambo. He's the real Rambo. Rambo was based on him. Whoa. Cool, right?

[Jay]

That can't be true.

[Nick]

Absolutely not true.

[Jay]

That can't be true.

[Nick]

Absolutely not true. It's a partial true, right? If you've seen First Blood, the first Rambo movie, pretty good movie. It's about like a traumatized Vietnam veteran who gets abused by small town sheriffs like an hour and a half north of here. It's about like ptsd.

[Jay]

Yeah. I was like, he's got severe PTSD in that mug.

[Nick]

It's like not jingoistic at all. It's not a very pro America movie. The sequel to First Blood. Rambo, First Blood Part two. Because we used to know how to name things in this fucking country.

[Jay]

It's also a very great Nintendo game too.

[Nick]

Rambo, First Blood, yes. A banger, yes. The sequel, Rambo First Blood Part 2 was a very different movie. Instead of a traumatized veteran getting like abused by police and kind of losing his mind, John Rambo has to go fight the refight, the Vietnam War to go rescue a bunch of POWs as part of a secret black ops operation. And this is the thing that's based on Bo Grights, Right? So that's where we're building towards. So, James, Bo Grights. I don't know where the Beau came from. Don't ask me. I can't answer that for you. What was that?

[Jay]

She's like, white people, y' all just be throwing names willy nilly. You know what?

[Nick]

I'm saying they don't get whiter because our man beau was born January 18, 1939, Hyde in Enid, Oklahoma.

[Jay]

Yeah, this dude is just hitting all.

[Nick]

The notes as a white kid from Oklahoma that Oklahoma white people hit different.

[Jay]

I will say this about Oklahoma white people. Now, we don't have much time, but I will say this.

[Sophie]

Where is this going?

[Jay]

No, listen. Oklahoma white people know their way around a grill.

[Nick]

That is true.

[Jay]

Y' all can make some barbecue. They be seasoning.

[Nick]

They don't get in a car with him, though.

[Jay]

Don't get in a car with him.

[Nick]

So he was born January 18, 1939, the only child to a family who was about to be deeply rocked by war. His father was an Army Air Corps pilot, and once the US entered the big dub dub dose, he flew B17s and was shot down over France in November of 1944. Beau was 5. An article by Art Harris in the Washington Post describes Beau as feeling as if his father died fighting the race. Right. War. Bo's gonna be in Vietnam. So this is pretty easy to understand, right?

[Jay]

Okay.

[Nick]

I was like, I missed the good war by two wars. Just two wars. Yeah.

[Sophie]

Jesus Christ.

[Nick]

So as a child, Beau worshiped his dad and seems to have never considered anything but a military career. And while his father had died over Europe, Beau fantasized, for whatever reason, about. Well, I think there's one very clear reason about fighting Japanese soldiers. Right. His dad dies fighting the Nazis. Bo's always going to be real interested in fighting the Japanese. Here's a quote from Bo. We had a big wheat field in front of my house, and I had hiding there. I always saw myself in a jungle environment. There was a dirt Runway, and I had a P51 Mustang and lived in a grass hut with a brown woman. Every morning, I'd put on my leather jacket, get into my aircraft, and fly off to do combat against the enemy all day long. Yeah, he just said that. First round, you're six.

[Jay]

Like, wait, Living a crash hut with a brown woman. First of all, hard, agree.

[Ad Voice 2]

But also.

[Sophie]

It'S the hut for me.

[Jay]

It's the hut.

[Nick]

You're hard agreeing on the hut, huh?

[Jay]

The hut is an issue.

[Nick]

Yeah, yeah, the hut's an issue. Okay. So Bo spent a lot of time hiding in cover in his front porch with a BB gun, shooting at toys that he'd seen set up in the yard. One day, he shot a toy truck. The BB ricocheted and hit Bo in the eye. It was a bad enough injury. There's a weird right wing militia Guy thing of shooting yourself in the eye. If you remember the Oath Keeper's founder, Stuart Rhodes, who really blasted the eye out there with a straight up real gun. But anyway, Beau doesn't lose his eye, otherwise this would be a very different story. But he has to explain to the doctor what happens. And he just tells the doctor the. And he uses a slur for. Japanese soldiers here shot back. Right.

[Jay]

So wait, but that's not what happened. All right, you just said he shot himself.

[Nick]

Well, he ricocheted.

[Jay]

It ricocheted.

[Nick]

Ricochet. I don't know if you want to count that as shooting himself. I do. It's bad gun safety, right?

[Jay]

Can we say that, that kind of. Yeah, yeah. I mean, low key. Like he kind of shot himself.

[Nick]

It's not a pattern yet, but it's weird that it happened twice with right wing militia leaders. Right. We're just waiting for one more of these guys to get their own eye and then we're. I don't know.

[Sophie]

No predicting.

[Nick]

Get like a free coffee. Okay?

[Jay]

Free coffee.

[Nick]

I don't know. Bo was raised by his maternal grandparents, primarily a fact which most of the articles I read about him, like in the Washington Post and stuff, just said he was raised by his grandparents. And I was like, but he had a mom. Where'd she go? So I had to go digging and I found an old Parade magazine article from 1983 by Ovid Demaris. And this is what that article says. His mother, a pilot with the women's Air Force service pilots would later marry a master sergeant and remain with the occupation forces in Germany after the war. That's all they say. She just left. She was just like, I'm starting a new family. I'm sorry your dad's dead. This is kind of a wash. Gramps and grandma are gonna take care of you. I'm gone.

[Jay]

They'll do a better job than me, kid.

[Sophie]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Yeah. Trust me, I intend to make that true. So yeah, aside from being abandoned, Beau had what you might call a normal life for a white boy in Oklahoma in the post war period. He was in the Boy Scouts, he was in the Explorer Scouts. He did all the different scouting things you can do. But he also had significant behavioral issues. We don't know exactly why, but Beau was expelled from high school. It may have had something to do with what we might classify as compulsive law breaking. The Post called him a self styled juvenile prankster, which is a term that people who grow up to be law and order conservatives use to describe the crimes they committed as Kids so that they're different from hoodlums.

[Jay]

Right.

[Nick]

You're not a hoodlum.

[Jay]

You're precocious.

[Nick]

Yeah. You're precociously stealing people's cars or whatever. Right.

[Jay]

Got it.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Jay]

Must be nice. He also claims to must be nice to be precocious. I'll tell you what.

[Nick]

To get to be precocious.

[Jay]

Hey, Lucky.

[Nick]

Yeah. So Bo stole cars and motorcycles. Precocious. Precocious. Yeah. He's just an excitable boy. Since you were listening to some Warren Zevon on the way in. There we go. He threw fireworks in school to disrupt events and assemblies. That one does sound fun. He describes himself from this time as right out of American Graffiti and a tough guy. He also claims to have run with gangs, although as best as I can tell from the context, he means gangs in the sense that, like, he and his friends committed petty crimes, not that he was in, like, an organized criminal organization, bruh.

[Jay]

No, you didn't.

[Nick]

No.

[Jay]

You know what I'm saying.

[Nick]

You and your friends drunkenly stole a.

[Jay]

Motorcycle in Enid, Oklahoma, sir. Tell me what turf you work in.

[Nick]

You ran the one stop sign. Yes. So once he was kicked out of high school, his caregivers sent him to Fork Union Military Academy in Virginia. Hilariously, in early interviews, like the one with Parade magazine, he told reporters that he chose to attend military school instead of going to high school. This is not true.

[Jay]

I don't know why he would do that, because I'm like. I feel like it fits the mystique of, like, you know, like a militia guy. I got kicked out, sent to military. Like, I. A little more hardcore than I chose.

[Nick]

I wanted to go to military. No, he. It was your head ass.

[Jay]

Like, nah, bro. Like, get kicked out. I thought you ran with a gang, homie. You know what I'm saying?

[Nick]

You in a gang.

[Jay]

You feel me? Like, yeah.

[Nick]

So the academy does kind of turn Beau around. He ends his time there as the core commander during his senior year, which is the child who's in charge of the other children, basically. Cool. Yeah. Awesome. Good idea. Depending on the interview, Beau claims he was either invited to attend West Point or he passed an entrance exam and was offered admission. I don't think either of these stories are true because West Point doesn't work that way. Applying to West Point isn't at all like applying to a normal university back then. And I think things are a little bit different today, but they seem mostly that work the same way. You get in because you have to get a nomination from a member of Congress. Right. You can also be appointed by the president or vice president, but basically everyone who gets into West Point gets nominated by a member of Congress. So for Beau's story to be true, he would have had to write a member of Congress and convince them of his worth and then get accepted and then say, nah, actually, I don't want free admission to the most prestigious military university and a guaranteed fast track in my career as an officer. No, thank you. I think he's just lying about this. Yeah. At any rate, Beau doesn't bum around long after graduation. This is also why I'm sure he's lying, because he immediately joins the military. In 1957, he walks into an army recruiter's office. He is 18. He claims that when he's in there, he sees a poster of a Green Beret on the wall. And the poster read, the Green Beret. Special Forces are the world's toughest troopers.

[Sophie]

Now, that doesn't sound true.

[Nick]

None. It cannot in no way save trouble. Absolutely can't be true. So the Green Berets were founded in 1952 as US Army Special Forces. By 1957, some of these guys had started wearing Green Berets in order to differentiate themselves from normal soldiers. But they weren't supposed to do that, and sometimes they got in trouble for it. And no official army recruitment ad would have called the unit the Green Berets because they weren't called that yet. Now.

[Sophie]

It'S a good thing we didn't make lying part of the drinking.

[Nick]

No, no, no. Again, legally, we can't kill the audience yet again. Give two more years of legislation, I think we'll have that right. But this is an advertisement by betterhelp. As seasons change and days grow darker sooner, it can get tough for a lot of people. This November, BetterHelp is encouraging everyone to reach out to check in on friends, reconnect with loved ones, and remind the people in your life that you're there. Just like it can take a little courage to send that message or grab coffee with someone you haven't seen in a while. Reaching out for therapy can feel difficult too, but it's worth it. And it almost always leaves people wondering, why didn't I do this sooner? And if you are interested in therapy, you might try BetterHelp. BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully qualified. BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences and their 12 plus years of experience and industry leading. Match fulfillment rate means they typically get it right the first time. But if you aren't happy with your match, you can switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored recommendations this month. Don't wait to reach out. Whether you change checking in on a friend or reaching out to a therapist yourself, BetterHelp makes it easier to take that first step. Our listeners get 10% off their first [e-mail] behind that's betterhelp.com behind tired of.

[Ad Voice 1]

Spills and stains on your sofa? Wash away your worries with Annabe. Annabe is the only machine washable sofa inside and out where designer quality meets budget friendly prices. That's right, sofas start at just $699. Enjoy a no risk experience with pet friendly stain resistant and changeable slip covers made with performance fabric. Experience cloud like Comfort with high resilience foam that's hypoallergenic and never needs fluffing. The sturdy steel frame ensures longevity and the modular pieces can be rearranged anytime. Shop washablesofas.com for early Black Friday savings up to 60% off site wide backed by a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not absolutely in love, send it back for a full refund. No return shipping or restocking fees. Every penny back. Upgrade [e-mail] Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Nick]

Managing multiple accounts and logins for your.

[Ad Voice 2]

Marketing needs is like managing multiple announcers.

[Nick]

For one ad confus. But with mailchimp's new SMS features, you can reach all your customers in over 10 countries, all from one account, giving you more time, driving more conversions and improving campaign performance. One platform, many audiences, endless possibilities. That's how you MailChimp your marketing with SMS. Tap the banner to learn more.

[Ad Voice 3]

Head home for the holidays with Abercrombie and Finch. We all know our calendars are about to get chaotic. For nonstop plans, Abercrombie has the pieces to curate your perfect seasonal wardrobe. Sweaters and denim for casual plans, party dresses for nights out, and comfy matching sets for everything in between. Keep the chaos cute this season in Abercrombie. Shop their new holiday outfits in the app, online and in stores.

[Nick]

So U.S. army Special Forces were founded as part of a general recognition brought on by certain events in World War II that the nature of conflict was changing. Military history has always had elite units who carried out special operations behind the lines. Or you could look at like the Greek soldiers and the Trojan Horse as like an early reference to Special Forces kind of activity. And World War II featured commando units on both sides that carried out high profile clandestine operations. So the US Special Forces began as an attempt to systematize the training and deployment of such commando teams for the first time. The idea initially with these guys was that they would. They're not like Navy SEALs are to. Right. The idea with the Special Forces that become Green Berets is that they would be stay behind guerrilla units in the event of a hot war with the Soviet Union. At that point in time, the discrepancy in conventional forces in Europe. The Soviets had a shitload of tanks.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[Nick]

NATO had somewhat less tanks. Meant that everyone's best assumption was that Soviet forces would steamroll through large portions of Western Europe before there could be any hope of NATO stopping them. And thus you wanted to have a bunch of Special Forces guys behind the line to train resistance cells, organize and execute attacks to disrupt the enemy's rear. Right. That's the idea with these guys.

[Jay]

Make sure this is post World War II.

[Nick]

Yes. We're talking the 50s. 57 is when. Yeah.

[Jay]

I don't know.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Jay]

Unless you're like a history nerd, I don't think we in our era appreciate just how badass, like, Russia was.

[Nick]

Oh, yeah.

[Jay]

I mean, like, they were some ass kickers.

[Nick]

They had a lot of tanks at the end of that war.

[Jay]

They were some ass kickers. Ye.

[Nick]

So in 1957, when Bo first claims to have seen that poster, he definitely didn't see that was the first year that Green Berets were deployed to Vietnam. So again, there wasn't, like, anything to brag about them doing yet. Like, they have a reputation now for doing all sorts of crazy shit. But they had just started going to Vietnam, which I think was their first official combat deployment. If you've ever heard that US involvement in Vietnam started with US Advisors going over to train the South Vietnamese Army. That's. That's at least like a big chunk of what they're talking about are what becomes the Green Berets.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[Nick]

So Beau's version of the story, which definitely isn't true, is that he asks the army recruiter, what do the Green Berets do? And that guy answers, they go out in the woods, live off bark and lizards, snoop around, blow up bridges and garret people.

[Jay]

They live in huts with brown women.

[Nick]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Bo immediately responds, that's for me. Again, they've only ever been deployed before Vietnam to Europe. They're not eating lizards. No, they're not. In fucking Italy. Like, sorry, that's not what they. They weren't famous for anything at this point of time. Certainly not this. I kind of doubt he was thinking at all about the Green Berets when he enlisted. The unit didn't even officially start wearing green berets until 1961, when President Kennedy made it a part of their uniform. In 1957, US Special Forces hadn't really done anything special yet. Their first. Oh, yeah, I already said that. Anyway, that interview with parade goes on. Quote, although they only accepted sergeants and above, Beau was admitted contingent on his passing. All the schools, these included regular basic training, advanced individual training, parachute and special forces courses that teach unconventional warfare. And again, I mean, that's true about the things you have to do to be a Green Beret, but I don't think Bo entered with any special deal because he doesn't. He has a normal military career for years before he gets into the Green Berets. And in fact, he gets. This is wild. Court martialed twice in basic training. See.

[Jay]

Yeah, I was. Listen, I was gonna say twice. Twice. I was gonna say he was thinking what most recruits think, which is poverty.

[Nick]

Like, you know, I want some money.

[Jay]

Or you gonna pay for school. You gonna give me somewhere to live. Basically, you're gonna give me socialism. I don't think I'm gonna go into the Army. You gonna give me socialism?

[Nick]

Yeah. I certainly don't think he was planning on eating lizards at all. Yeah, so. Yeah, he doesn't. He gets court martialed twice in basic training. I wish I knew what for. I just don't have that information.

[Sophie]

Cause he was trying to start a gang. Cause he's just like.

[Nick]

He might have been horse stealing jeeps.

[Sophie]

Stealing jeeps.

[Jay]

He's gonna steal, start a gang.

[Nick]

And after training, west side Enid. You know what I'm saying?

[Jay]

What, bro?

[Nick]

I mean, ironically, US Special Forces today often operate exactly like a gang, running illegal drugs and murdering other Special Forces guys who find them running illegal drugs. Who knew. Yeah. That actually a Green Beret got murdered by some Navy SEALs a couple years ago as a result of a bunch of drug shit. Fun story. Anyway, America, we'll talk about them later. After basic training, Beau was recommended to go to Officer Candidate School. And this is interesting. I don't know why he got picked out. It's fairly rare for that to happen because he didn't have any college experience. But he passes. He gets commissioned as a second lieutenant. And somewhere around this time, also in 1957, he marries his first wife, Dolores Beneditti. And while he was starting his military career. The couple has two children. They're not really that important to talk about because he is going to abandon them at the first possible. This is a classic family of abandoner. I'm sorry. You hear a man's name is Bo. Gr. First thing you know is that that man has abandoned at least one family. Yeah, like.

[Sophie]

Like his mom.

[Nick]

Like his mom. Yeah.

[Jay]

His generational. Dang.

[Nick]

I learned it from you, mom.

[Jay]

I learned it by watching you.

[Sophie]

Generational trauma.

[Nick]

That's his smoking pot is abandoning his family.

[Sophie]

Exactly. Down from generations.

[Jay]

How do y' all get that reference, though? I learned it from watching.

[Nick]

No, no, no.

[Jay]

Yeah, y' all don't get that.

[Nick]

Those were anti drug ads from back in the day. So after ocs, Bo goes to Ranger school. And he does well enough in Ranger school that he gets promoted steadily throughout the early 1960s, reaching the rank of captain by 1963. In 1965, he joins the Green Berets. So again, he claims in 57, I knew what I wanted to be. I think the reality is his career just went along and eventually this became an option for him. And for whatever reason, he decided to lie about that. Later, he gets deployed to Vietnam in 1965, and he recalls being excited for the opportunity to, quote, go out and hit something.

[Jay]

Other than his own eye, right?

[Nick]

Other than his own eye with a bb. Yeah, yeah. Hit is interesting. Like, not shoot. Like so you. And he actually, he does hit people to death, so I don't know. He knew what he wanted. Beau was not among the very first Green Berets deployed to the country. But by the time he got over there, the mission that the US was involved in had expanded beyond training the South Vietnamese army to, I mean, a bunch of shit. But the Green Berets were operating mobile guerrilla forces of different local fighters in dark zones of Vietnam and the surrounding countries where US forces were not supposed to be. Right. A lot of these guys wind up in Laos. They're not supposed to be in Laos, but they're there. So he splits up with his wife somewhere around this point, and he hooks up with a woman that he describes most often in interviews as, quote, an ethnic Chinese former prostitute.

[Jay]

These are those words this man I figured out as soon as you said first wife, I was like, uh huh. That man went down to the jungle.

[Nick]

Yep.

[Jay]

He was like, yo, they come like this, like, yeah.

[Nick]

And he's always really specific about the ethnic Chinese part. I think just because he didn't want anyone to think he had, like, married a Vietnamese woman. Like, that was very important to Beau for reasons that I probably don't need to get into. Also, I'm guessing she wasn't a former prostitute when they met. That's just my theory here. But given that he's a soldier in Vietnam in 1965, but at least he.

[Sophie]

Was supporting sex workers.

[Nick]

He was, yeah. Oh, yeah. We stand, we stand, we stand. Yeah.

[Jay]

Listen, man, there's always some sort of redeeming quality, so Bear.

[Nick]

There you go.

[Sophie]

Low bar for this one, though.

[Nick]

Real low bar.

[Jay]

Low bar for Bo here.

[Nick]

Yeah, this will be. Yeah. So one thing you gotta give Bo, other than that is that he was very good at being a Green Beret. He's in fact, one of the best to ever do it. He claims to be the most highly decorated Green Beret commander of the entire war. And this is probably true. He ultimately received more than 60 citations for valor, including both silver and bronze stars. Bo's descriptions of his time in Vietnam are harrowing reading. At one point, a Viet Cong fighter rises up out of a tunnel and tries to shoot him at point blank range. And Grech only survives because the ammunition in the man's weapon was bad and failed to fire. One of the stories we get of Beau comes from General William Westmoreland's memoirs. And if you know Westmoreland, he was like, if you're gonna blame Vietnam on a military leader in the us, Westmoreland's the guy you blame, right? I think there's a couple of guys ahead of him like LBJ and whatnot, but Westmoreland is responsible for a lot of why Vietnam is the fucking nightmare that it is, right? And it says a lot about both Beau and Westmoreland that Westmoreland, like, signal, like singles. Beau out as, like, an example of this guy was one of our best. This is like one of the absolute, like, the dudes who was really doing it, right? And again, maybe that's why we lost the war. I don't know.

[Jay]

Is this your kid?

[Nick]

So Westmoreland writes in detail about one of Bo's missions, which is this US spy plane has crashed in the Cambodian jungle. Right now. Writing for the Washington Post, Art Harris summarizes. Washington was desperate to retrieve the black box containing top secret codes. It had failed to self destruct. If it got into VC hands, Moscow might be the next step. There was only one hangup. Nobody knew exactly where the plane was. Choppers dropped off Greitz and his team and they fanned out on foot, hacking their way through vines snaking along elephant trails, setting Booby traps to protect their rear. Ambushing and getting ambushed. On the fourth day out around Christmas of 1966, they stumbled on the U2 wreckage. The black box was gone. VC's sandal tracks led off into the bush. He set up an ambush. Kill every man except the first two he ordered. Greitz and another sergeant would take care of them in hand to hand with zappers or CIA issue spring steel billy clubs.

[Jay]

Now that actually would kind of sounds epic. I ain't going. Oh, you gotta be a dope movie.

[Nick]

Look, it's a good scene in a movie. Nobody's denying that. I have some questions. First off, why did the CIA have to issue them billy clubs? Why did the CIA need to make clubs to hit people with? I mean, I'm not questioning like, why would the CIA want people beaten to death. I'm questioning why did they have to make the. Like, I feel like I could make a steel club.

[Jay]

You're in the jungle, you can make whatever you want.

[Sophie]

I have a question. Why is your chair backwards?

[Nick]

I'm rikering, Sophie. Thank you. Yeah, let's give it up. Commander William Riker. Come on. There we go. There we go. You're really the truth.

[Jay]

So you're really quick with that answer. I'm super impressed.

[Sophie]

We've been doing this a long time.

[Nick]

It's like my back tattoo says, ABR baby, always be right around. Oh, so Jesus Christ. Sort of like he's trying to give him alcohol.

[Jay]

School counselor. Yeah.

[Nick]

Okay, so other questions I have. Why were they called zappers? They're just clubs to hit people with. Also, did the special forces need the CIA to give him the idea to beat men with metal clubs? These are the questions that keep me up at night. Anyway, that patrol shows up and bowes men shoot them to pieces. Greitz rushes his target and hits him. But he kills him immediately. He just kills the guy with a club. There is a prisoner that they've taken, but he's defiant and so he had to be executed. And here's where you can drink your first war crime drink. Cause you are not supposed to execute prisoners.

[Jay]

Because they're defiant.

[Nick]

Defiant, yes. Pissed that you killed his friends and captured him. That's pretty natural.

[Jay]

Don't tell us nothing. Don't kill him.

[Nick]

Now get ready for another war crimes drink. Because Greitz was forced. Both the guys they tried to take alive, they have now killed. But one of the wounded Viet. One of the Viet Cong fighters that they had thought they'd killed was just wounded. And so they decide to convince this guy to help them, and they do that by. They show him. They use a mirror to show him the shrapnel embedded in the back of his skull. And they're like, hey, man, you need medical attention right away, and we can't give it to you unless you help us out. So if you don't help us, you're dead, right? So this guy agrees to lead them to the base where the black box had been taken. And to make sure that he abided by the terms of the deal, Bo attaches C4 to the prisoner's neck and uses a detonation cord and uses a. A detonation cord as a leash to walk him around. Let's have another war crime drink.

[Jay]

Yeah, that's.

[Nick]

You're. Wow. Again, you're not supposed to do this.

[Jay]

I was gonna. One of my questions, as soon as he said, kill everybody but two of them, I was like, okay, so how do you know which two? Because you might have killed the one that was ready to snitch. You know what I'm saying? And. But you don't know that. If you just walked up and be like, I'm just gonna pick the two. You know what I'm saying?

[Nick]

Part of Green Beret training is learning, like, what Guy looks like he's best at talking. Don't shoot him as much.

[Jay]

Which one of y' all look like snitches?

[Nick]

Just grenade that guy a little bit. He looks like he's got a talking mouth. Yeah. So.

[Jay]

Hey, hey, hey, homie, you got somebody back home you love? Okay, cool. Keep him alive. He gonna snitch.

[Nick]

Looks like he's got a family.

[Jay]

You got a family. You f. To snitch. You don't know nobody. You can kill him.

[Nick]

So, again, several war crimes down here, but the mission is successful.

[Jay]

I'm sorry.

[Nick]

I'm from the.

[Jay]

I don't know why I know stuff like that. I'm sorry. Anyway, go ahead.

[Nick]

So the mission succeeds, which is why Westmoreland writes proudly about it in his memoir. Even though I might be like, maybe. Maybe don't highlight all the war crimes. I don't if I'm giving notes, right? Which I'm not. So the whole thing highlights an important fact, right? Which is that modern American worship of Special Forces operators begins as a distraction, right? That's why Westmoreland is talking about this. Devote so much time to it. And that's why Beau is going to get. That's why the Rambo movies are such a big deal, right? Is because after Vietnam The US Americans are pretty clear, oh, we're not getting into good wars anymore. Like that one time, like that was, that was pretty fun. And it seems like a lot less fun these days. But we have these guys who are really well trained to do all this cool stuff and they look awesome and like they can do really impressive things. They're not winning us wars. Like, him finding this black box didn't help Vietnam. Like, the war still didn't go very well.

[Jay]

It was also very pretty. The last one we had was a pretty clear, like good versus evil type vibe.

[Nick]

Right? The whole World War II thing, you're not doing that anymore.

[Jay]

This one you like, why is we there again?

[Nick]

So the war is doing over here and we're not winning. So people are like, so it becomes a lot easier. Like, well, let's celebrate how cool these guys are. Right? In lieu of celebrating, you know, the good cause that we're doing or like the fact that the war has gone very well, you know. And so Beau is kind of at the very first wave of Special Forces obsession in the United States, which is something that has really like come to a head during the global war on terror. Right. If you look at like movies set in that period of time, they're a lot likelier to focus on like a Special Forces unit because you can have them do some kind of rad, cool looking mission and sort of ignore that. Like, well, everything else was a lot messier and didn't work quite as well. But Zero Dark Thirty, hey.

[Jay]

Yeah. There's also like a. I don't want to belabor this point too long, but I think that there's a good way as like, as far as like some of the science I use for like social commentary or even when I did teach high school was like, you always know what's going on. If you want to understand what was going on in a time period, just look at who the villain was in a movie, you know what I'm saying?

[Nick]

Oh yeah.

[Jay]

And like this one. So right now, like every show, streaming show, every action movie, right now, what's the villain? A tech billionaire.

[Nick]

Yeah. Oh yeah.

[Jay]

You see what I'm saying?

[Nick]

Right, right.

[Jay]

You know what I'm saying? But before that, you know, during.

[Nick]

Oh yeah, before that it was like.

[Jay]

Some sort of terror, some sort of Middle Eastern terrorist, you know what I'm saying? So like you always know what's going on in the world.

[Nick]

You had a lot of late 90s, right before 9, 11, a lot of like militia Nazi kind of guys. Yeah.

[Sophie]

After okcun to kill us.

[Jay]

Oh, I see what I'm saying.

[Sophie]

Like seven times.

[Nick]

So anyway, I'm bringing up the special forces stuff just to kind of set the zeitgeist right, which is that Bo is going to really benefit personally in his celebrity from the idea that Americans have kind of switched gears to like, so what if we don't win wars anymore? We look really cool while we're losing, you know? So Beau himself later stated of his time in Vietnam, we got paid for bringing him back. Dead or alive. We laid minds like sowing seeds. Among my greatest satisfactions in life other than sex was hearing the boom in the night. I'd turn over in my hammock after a boom and chuckle. Got another one.

[Sophie]

Cool guy.

[Nick]

Cool guy. Cool guy. Other than sex. I'm glad he let us know that, you know, that's a bar.

[Sophie]

Bo.

[Jay]

Thanks.

[Nick]

Thanks, Bo.

[Sophie]

When I make the joke that men used to go to war, I didn't mean this guy.

[Jay]

Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, Sophie, we've always been this.

[Nick]

That's.

[Jay]

Oh, I'm sorry.

[Nick]

I mean, look, would I set landmines if I had landmines? And the legal. Sure, of course. Who wouldn't want a couple of landmines? You know, Listen, keep the raccoons out of your yard. Keep the chickens out of your yard. Keep the dogs. Keep yourself out of your yard.

[Sophie]

You know, I draw the line at the dogs.

[Nick]

Look, the great thing about landmines is they don't discriminate.

[Jay]

And the thing is, you would only need just one dog after that. The rest of the dogs are smart. The rest of them would know, see?

[Nick]

Yeah. Yeah. This has been a paid sponsorship for the Coalition for Civilian Landmine Ownership. You can find a donation bin up at the front.

[Jay]

Also spayed and new to your dogs.

[Nick]

Yeah, spay and new to your dogs. Or let the landmine do it. You know. So.

[Jay]

We got so many more pages. Keep going.

[Ad Voice 1]

Life gets messy. Spills, stains, and kid chaos. But with anove, cleaning up is easy. Our sofas are fully machine washable inside and out, so you never have to stress about messes again. Made with liquid and stain resistant fabrics, that means fewer stains and more peace of mind. Designed for real life, Our sofas feature changeable fabric covers allowing you to refresh your style anytime. Need flexibility. Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa effortlessly. Perfect for cozy apartments or spacious homes. Plus, they're earth friendly and built to last. That's why over 200,000 happy customers have made the switch. Get early access to Black Friday pricing right now sofas started just $699. Visit washable sofa sofas.com now and bring home a sofa made for life. That's washablesofas.com offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Nick]

Managing multiple accounts and logins for your.

[Ad Voice 2]

Marketing needs is like managing multiple announcers for one ad.

[Nick]

Confusing, but with mailchimp's new SMS features, you can reach all your customers in over 10 countries, all from one account, giving you more time, driving more conversions and improving campaign performance. One platform, many audiences, endless possibilities. That's how you MailChimp your marketing with SMS. Tap the banner to learn more.

[Ad Voice 3]

Head home for the holidays with Abercrombie and Finch. We all know our calendars are about to get chaotic. For non stop plans, Abercrombie has the pieces to curate your perfect seasonal wardrobe. Sweaters and denim for casual plans, party dresses for nights out, and comfy matching sets for everything in between. Keep the chaos cute this season in Abercrombie. Shop their new holiday outfits in the app, online and in stores.

[Nick]

This week on Point game with me, C.J. toledano and Isaiah Thomas. It tells us the hilarious story about how we got dunked on by LeBron, but not actually take a listen.

[Jay]

The reason why you never seen it on me. I've never been dropped. I never been ducked on. There's a picture of me going up against LeBron. It looks like I'm about to get dunked up. My kids clowned about that too, but I fouled him and he missed the layup, so the poster looks like he's going to turn it on me. But he never did. And I don't think I'm ever going to be the guy that gets ducked on just because. And if you ever dunk on me.

[Nick]

It'S like you're supposed to.

[Jay]

I'm 5 9, so I'm not tripping. I'm not tripping at all.

[Nick]

Download the DraftKings sportsbook app and use code PointGame. That's code PointGame. Bet five bucks and get three months of League Pass, plus get $300 in.

[Ad Voice 2]

Bonus bets if your bet wins.

[Nick]

In partnership with DraftKings, the Crown is yours.

[Ad Voice 2]

Gambling Problem Call 1-800-Gambler in New York. Call 877-8-HOPE and WHY or text hopeandy467-369 in Connecticut. Help is available for problem gambling. Call 888-7897 or visit ccpg.org Please play responsibly on behalf of Boot Hill Casino and Resort in Kansas. Pass through per wager tax May apply in Illinois 21 and over. Age and eligibility varies by jurisdiction. Void in Ontario. Restrictions apply. Bet must win to receive bonus bets which expire in seven days. Minimum odds required. NBA league pass. Auto renews until canceled. Additional terms at DKNG CO Audio. Limited time offer.

[Nick]

The US pulls out of Vietnam in 1973, and Beau transitions to commanding all US sport. All US sportes. Beau transitions to commanding all US Special Forces in Latin America, a job he held from 1975 to 1977. And that's not, like, quite the peak of US war crimes in Latin America, but it's not at, like, the low point, right? Like, it's like, the upper third of the US War crimes in Latin America periods, I think we can say. So maybe take a drink there. We'll just assume, right? This is also classified.

[Jay]

Some fuckery in Costa Rica. El Salvador.

[Nick]

Just won. Yeah, he retired. Huh? He retires in 1979. Although that was not quite the end of his time working for the U.S. government. And this is a rare case where Beau is telling the truth and someone else is lying because the US government says that was the end of him working for us. And Beau says, no, it wasn't. Because after the USSR invaded Afghanistan at the end of 1979, the State Department hired Beau to help train the Mujahideen. They flew Afghan fighters to Sandy.

[Jay]

This is too close, man. Like, it's too close.

[Nick]

They flew Afghan fighters to Sandy Valley, Nevada, where Beau taught them to use armor piercing ammunition against. Against Soviet vehicles carrying VIPs.

[Jay]

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. If I'm getting. If I'm from Afghanistan, you better not fly me to Nevada, man. Come on.

[Nick]

There has to have been one night where Bo and the Mujahideen all hit Fremont street, right? There has to be one night where they're at the fucking. What is the Lucky Horseshoe.

[Jay]

I land in Nevada and be like this. That look like home. What is we. This? Yeah.

[Nick]

So the US government denies that this happened, but Beau has footage of himself training a bunch of Afghan guys. They're setting off explosives in the desert. So I'm gonna go with the government's lying here. Government would never lie. Yeah. Oh, Sophie, I have some bad news. We'll talk about that behind stage. So, decades later, for a 2021 Mystery Wire interview, Beau would insist that the specific men he trained were among the very last holdouts resisting Taliban control after the Taliban, you know, won and stuff. And there's no way for me to know if that's true. I don't think he knows. I don't think he kept track of names. I don't. He's certainly not emailing with, hey, you still doing okay up there? I think he just needed to tell himself that, or wanted to tell the news that to sound cool anyway. Another thing Beau needed to tell himself was that the US Government had left behind a huge number of his comrades in Vietnam. He would later claim, without any evidence that I've seen, that he was tasked by the DIA, the Defense Intelligence Agency, with searching for POWs left behind after the withdrawal of US forces. Now, if you've driven past a VA hall or a post office or some other government building or just a shitload of rural homes, you've probably seen at some point, under a US Flag, a weird black flag with a silhouette of a dude's face in front of a guard tower and the words pow, mia. You are not forgotten on it, Right? Most people you've seen, you're aware of these stuff. We're about to talk about where this fucking flag comes from, right? Because this is our most conspiratorial flag in the United States.

[Jay]

If that is a silhouette of bo, I'm knocking this table over.

[Nick]

There's a funny story for whose silhouette that is.

[Jay]

Tom, I'm knocking all your drinks out of your hand. If it's both, okay?

[Nick]

No. So the idea behind this flag is that there's a. And to this day, the people who fly it tend to believe that there's a shitload of US Servicemen still being held captive somewhere, right? Whereas less, they'd be like 80 now if they were fucking from the Vietnam War, right? This is not true. And it wasn't true by the late 1970s, right? But belief in this conspiracy theory that we'd left a bunch of guys behind and they were still in camps in Vietnam and we gotta go rescue them. That became a widespread conspiratorial belief, largely due to Bo Gritz. He is a huge. He's not the only one, but he is a major, major reason for that. Now, the flag itself that I just described was designed by a guy named Jeff Heisley in 1970. And when Jeff designs the flag. To be fair to Jeff, there were a bunch of US POWs in North Vietnam. We were still fighting a war, right? Of course there were POWs. That's how war works. The silhouette was based on a real guy, his son, who was 22 years old at the time and not a soldier. Now, he had tried to be a soldier. Jeff.

[Sophie]

I'm sorry, What?

[Nick]

This is very funny. Jeff's. Son had been an officer candidate school for the Marine Corps, but he'd had to drop out because he caught hepatitis. So he was like, sick, and he'd lost, like £40, so he looked like he was starving to death. He was like, hey, buddy, get on over here. I think your silhouette looks perfect for something.

[Jay]

It's big, like, it's pretty good. Like Michelangelo, like, Jesus statue energy. It's giving, like.

[Sophie]

And that's all over our country.

[Nick]

It's all everywhere now. Every time you see one of those flags, you'll know where they came from. So great fucking hepatitis awareness. So before Nixon got elected, we didn't use the terms pow, mia, right. I mean, POW existed as a term, but that was not what the military used. Officially, the terms used were kia, bnr, which meant killed in action, body not recovered. Right. And this was the term for. This is not the term for. If we knew someone was a pow, you'd call them a pow. This was the term for guys who disappeared and we don't know that they died. We don't know what happened. And most of these guys had. They just been, you know, they'd been blown up or something. There was not enough left to do a positive identity. Some small number probably just like went awol. Like, everyone dude didn't get too. You got a couple of weirdos who, like, just like. There were a couple of guys in Korea who just like went to North Korea. Like that guy of. Stuff happen every now and then, right? And then some number of them you assume were captured and were. And this was happening at points in the Vietnam War and were being held. Right. And the government just was not aware of their specific name. Right? So that's what we used to call it. And it's worth emphasizing that prior to 1969, the US government, and specifically the Department of Defense wanted to discourage any talk about US Servicemen being imprisoned by the enemy. This was not just a Vietnam, this existed beforehand. But it really became heightened in Vietnam. And so when like, the military would tell someone that, like, hey, your. Your kid or whatever is missing, they would also tell them, keep quiet about it. They might still be alive, don't tell anybody. Right? Which is kind of a fucked up thing. Like what? That's really fucking crazy. Per an article in Time by Heath Lee, if the women dared to discuss it, their government warned them the men might be badly treated or even executed with this heavy burden to bear it. The women were supposed to go about their daily existence telling no one what they were up against. Supposedly, this would Help bring the men back home safely. The policy, how this policy had been applied to prisoners and missing troops in previous wars and was one President Lyndon B. Johnson would adhere to. During the Vietnam War, the US government tried to use its well worn template of quiet diplomacy to reason with the North Vietnamese. Now, this is very fucked up. And you might think that it's a good thing that the Nixon administration changed course and like, well, at least now we're admitting, like, these guys are captured or missing, right? Like that's an improvement over telling their families to lie, right? But this is Dick Nixon we're talking about. This change was not made out of compassion. It was made for it. Even more fun. Fucked up reason. As H. Bruce Franklin outlines in his book MIA Myth Making in America, which is a great book about this exact subject, the Nixon administration changed courses because this was. They wanted to get Americans to back a disastrous war, right? They wanted to build support for Vietnam, which was fading. And in May of 1969, Defense Secretary Melvin Laird admitted for the first time that some 1,300Americans were MIA and as many as half might be POWs. And this is when the use of the term really changed. As Nathan Smith summarized in an article for the Outline, this transformed the war from a political issue into a humanitarian one, trading public support for sympathy. It didn't matter why we were there in the first place. Our boys were there and by God, we were going to do anything to get our boys home, right? So people are wondering why we're there.

[Jay]

I feel like, okay, far be it from me to try to tell the US government how to do they branding and marketing pictures. I just feel like for you to tell me in a war I already didn't wanna be in. Now you admitting what we already knew, which is Earl's son ain't came home yet while everybody else's son came. So now you wanna admit it? And you telling me that's a justification for your. Well, yeah, look, I would be like my g. It sound to me like we shouldn't have never fucking been there. No, no, my son would be home. I'm sorry.

[Nick]

No problem. I know you're angry. I know you're angry that all these people are dying and that we're fighting this war. But look, we have to keep fighting the war. Otherwise the guys that we sent to the war might not come home from the war.

[Jay]

Don't make no damn sense.

[Nick]

Sir. There's a lot of logic there.

[Jay]

Don't make no damn sense. I'm just saying maybe you should stop.

[Nick]

Fighting A war maybe we should have stopped.

[Jay]

You can't be a prisoner of a war that ain't happening, sir.

[Nick]

I bet if we left, they'd give the guys back.

[Jay]

I bet you if we left anyway.

[Nick]

Because they probably don't want to keep them.

[Jay]

I bet.

[Nick]

Look.

[Jay]

And at this point, what is that.

[Nick]

Winning them at this point? You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So the first group to prove how much money there is in this newly created conspiracy theory was a student organization, viva, or Voices in Vital America. One of the worst acronyms I've ever encountered. Just as a heads up. Just fucking dog shit now. Now, Viva started out selling nickel bracelets in the early 1970s with the names of missing servicemen engraved in them. Celebrities would buy one to be spotted supporting the troops and giving something back.

[Sophie]

Like Lansing.

[Nick]

Yes, Livestrong, right? Yes, Livestrong.

[Jay]

Only pro war.

[Nick]

Yeah, yeah. Now, then the war ended, right? And Vietnam returned the prisoners they had. Because, you know, why would they keep these guys past a certain point? You know, there were negotiations. There were things they wanted. It doesn't happen immediately, but there's a congressional inquiry in 1976 to try and make sure. Did we get everybody? Are there some guys left or not? Right? So this is.

[Sophie]

That's nice of them to check, right?

[Nick]

You should double check that. Did we leave a guy or two behind? It's like looking for your keys after you set up at the bar, you know? But, like, with 700 guys who got shot down for bombing Hanoi, you know.

[Jay]

I'm pretty sure Vietnam would know, though. It was like, y' all see any white people?

[Nick]

Do my friends always notice if I lose my wallet in their couch? Yeah, pilots are a lot like that.

[Jay]

Listen, I'm just saying, go back into the prison and be like, hello.

[Nick]

Hey, anybody here?

[Jay]

Anybody here? Ain't nobody here, G. Like, I think we're good. I think we're good. I don't know where they went after they left here. I'm just saying they not here.

[Nick]

Right. So there's this inquiry in 1976, and Congress concludes there's not any guys still over there. Right. There's no more US POWs in Southeast Asia. But a certain number of Americans could not get over their rage at losing a war and refused to accept that the hundreds of men who were still missing in action were just dead. Right. And not being kept in a secret prison camp. And when it comes to, like, the families, obviously, I don't blame, like, someone for, like, not wanting to believe their dad dead or whatever, but on a societal Level, this is just a delusion, you know, it's an open question as to whether or not Bo Gritz ever believed there were hundreds, some said thousands of Americans still being held prisoner in Vietnam, or if he just saw it as fertile soil for a grift. Now I am inclined to believe the latter. Explains some of his logic that it's a grift, right? Because in the early 1980s, he starts traveling around and giving speeches about how there's all these guys left over there, my brothers are still behind the line being held by the North Vietnamese, and we've got to free them, right? And, you know, since the government's not gonna do it, you know, they're, they're corrupt, they're lazy, you know, and then the cowardly media's convinced everybody keeping troops in Vietnam is a bad idea. I'm gonna bring them back. I'm gonna put together a squad, a hard nosed badass.

[Sophie]

A gang, you might say.

[Nick]

A gang, you might say.

[Jay]

So that's the Rambo.

[Nick]

The Rambo.

[Jay]

I was like, please connect these dots. Okay, got it.

[Nick]

So if you just give me some money, I'm totally gonna put together a volunteer force of American veteran commandos and we're gonna return to Southeast Asia and we'll find proof that Americans are still being held captive there. And that'll force the government to, I guess, reinvade Vietnam. Right?

[Sophie]

He just wants to commit more work right now.

[Nick]

He just didn't get enough Vietnam. You know, it's, it's the again, like sometimes, you know, you go to the buffet, you don't get enough plates. You know, it's like that, but with.

[Sophie]

I've been to a buffet with you. You get enough plates.

[Nick]

Get enough plates, right? And I would argue the United States had more than enough Vietnam.

[Jay]

Had plenty of plates. Should have cut them off a while back.

[Nick]

Shouldn't, shouldn't have even gone into that buffet.

[Jay]

Golden Corral, right? Don't even go in.

[Nick]

Bo starts touring Golden.

[Jay]

Is there Golden Corrals up here?

[Nick]

Are there? No, no, no, no.

[Jay]

There's a couple.

[Nick]

Although if you ever want to. I did this when I was like 22 years old and fucking coming down from a shitload of acid. Like you and your equally young, equally coming down on acid friends coming to a Golden Corral at six in the morning because you haven't slept the night before. The looks you get from the Golden Corral regulars. Beautiful, beautiful experience. I recommend it to everyone.

[Sophie]

The show is not sponsored by Golden Corral, but maybe it should be yet.

[Nick]

So Beau starts touring the country. He starts guesting on different TV shows. He starts speaking at churches and at veterans organizations. He starts taking donations.

[Sophie]

Why do we let them do this?

[Jay]

How did he get to the. But how did he get to the tv though?

[Sophie]

Because he's famous.

[Jay]

Oh. Cause he's a famous.

[Nick]

He's a famous. He's a. He's won a bunch of awards. He's a great Green Beret. And it's. It sells right? On tv. The like, there's a bunch of men trapped, you know, your fellow citizens trapped, you know, and he's. Beau was charismatic.

[Sophie]

Was he handsome?

[Nick]

I would not say so. But that's an opinion that people can have or not have on their own. You know, it's not my job to tell you which war criminals are hot.

[Sophie]

Yes, it is. I beg to differ.

[Nick]

That's literally your. Do I have a short list of really hot war criminals.

[Jay]

Listen, at this point, were we at home, you would have pulled up some sort of picture that we would try.

[Nick]

You cut that. You. You forced me to cut that 28 minute digression out of the pole pot episode. So I don't know what to do.

[Sophie]

I'm sorry.

[Nick]

Should have called him pole hot. Am I right?

[Jay]

Pole hot. That's all, folks. Thank you so much, man.

[Nick]

Wow. Wow. So.

[Jay]

Such low hanging fruit. Like how I never thought of that.

[Nick]

Yeah. After that again, I did they cut.

[Sophie]

It out, stare around.

[Nick]

Why?

[Sophie]

I don't know. It's been bothering me the entire time.

[Nick]

Sorry. Some of us remember again, the troops. Just one. Well, because one part one version of Riker was left behind after a transporter accident, which is how his transporter clone came to be. Yes. Some people know their history. Thank you.

[Sophie]

Clap for him.

[Nick]

Yeah. Yeah. Let's give a real big round of applause for the Riker that joined the McKee. There we go. Yeah, Big Reich. Oh, okay. All right.

[Jay]

So this is madness.

[Nick]

Beau starts touring. He goes all around. He's taking donations. He's given lots of interviews. He's getting on TV all the time. And he's telling stories about his time in Vietnam to get like the saddest stories he has, right? Because the more emotional people are, the more willing they are to give him money for this stupid shit. And his favorite go to story is the tale of a real guy, Sergeant George Hoagland. George was a Green Beret, a comrade who Greit's said had been wounded during an ambush. And so Greit says, you know, Hoagland gets wounded and me and some other guys, we have to run back and we're trying to rescue him, right? And Hoagland, being such a hero, realizes that his teammates are going to die in this ambush if they try to save him. And so, in an act of utter selflessness, Hoagland puts his own AR15 to his head and, quote, pulled the trigger, eliminating the need for us to be there. That's what Bo says. Now, this would certainly be a shocking and sobering story of sacrifice if any of it were even slightly true.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Now, the problem is Bo has chosen to lie about a real dude who really died and who he had not served with, but other guys had most of the press for a long time. He gets away with this because most journalists are like, well, he's a Green Beret. I must be telling the truth. He wouldn't lie about another Green Beret. That'd be fucked up. Thankfully, the Washington Post was still the real newspaper back in the 80s. And Art Harris. Art Harris reached out to Chuck Heiner, who was one of two men, members of Hoagland's squad, who survived the actual ambush that killed Hoagland. And Heiner, claimed, quote, greitz wasn't even on that goddamn team. I was with George when he died. He just got blown away. Must have taken 150 rounds. Very dead.

[Jay]

Damn.

[Nick]

Yeah. That's a lot of debt. They were not.

[Jay]

I mean, that's bad enough.

[Nick]

They were not taking chance. Yeah, right. That's pretty. Pretty bad. Now, this is the kind of lie that shouldn't have even taken an interview to bust. My first thing would have been lie. Wait, so this guy got wounded and then he shot himself in the head with an AR15. Like, for one thing, they usually have, like, pistols, right?

[Jay]

Yes. Seems a little overkill.

[Nick]

It's just weird that he'd lie about this specifically. Right. And I think the weirdness, I'm like, why?

[Jay]

You have real good stories, such good stories already.

[Sophie]

Because men lie. Men lie well.

[Nick]

Yeah. And both. And Bo is a compulsive liar. Right? Like, he's someone who absolutely cannot control it. And what matters most to him isn't the truth. It's continuing to live as if he were a movie protagonist long after he'd gotten too old and slow to continue shooting people for the government. Now, folks, we're gonna continue this story, don't you worry. And we're gonna continue and conclude with a Q and A to let you guys ask some questions and whatnot. But. But we're going to take an intermission because that's the thing that we do here. So go get yourself a drink, use the restroom, buy some T shirts. There's merch, T shirts, stickers, merch to support the Portland Defense Fund. And then in a couple of minutes we will come back and we will learn more about Bo Gritz, who I think is going to become a good guy by the end of this. I don't remember the remaining five pages of the script, but I think that ends well.

[Jay]

It's a Christmas episode.

[Nick]

Who knew? Yeah, yeah.

[Sophie]

Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media.

[Nick]

For more from Cool Zone Media, Visit.

[Sophie]

Our website coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the Basterds is Now available on YouTube.

[Nick]

New episodes every Wednesday and Friday.

[Ad Voice 3]

Subscribe to our channel YouTube.com behindthebastards.

[Ad Voice 2]

This is Jacob Goldstein from what's yous Problem? When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out odoo@o d o o dot com. That's o-o o dot com.

[Jay]

You ever feel that deep pull to the land to know it? To build something that lasts, that itch for your own wild country? Well, it ain't just a daydream. In 2025 it matters more than ever whether you're a lifelong hunter or just starting out, dreaming of land to explore, to leave something real. Or there is a trailhead where you can start. It's called land.com the biggest online network for rural property. Find the right agent and explore everything from timber tracks to ranches. Get the tools you need to buy that dream generational property. Stop dreaming about it and head to land.com. it's your place to find your open space.

[Ad Voice 1]

Want Black Friday prices without the crowds?

[Nick]

Lowe's gets it.

[Ad Voice 1]

Shop their early Black Friday deals and beat the rush. $99 is all you need to grab.

[Ad Voice 3]

A select 7 foot pre lit artificial.

[Ad Voice 1]

Christmas tree for the holidays.

[Nick]

And don't sweat what gifts to get dad.

[Ad Voice 1]

They have up to 40% off select tools and accessories going on now. That's how Lowes celebrates Black Friday. Early selection varies by location while supplies last.

[Ad Voice 2]

This is Julian Edelman from Games With Names. Fantasy football can be exhausting. I mean that literally. You're so anxious over your lineup you can't fall asleep. Best way to deal with it is unisom. There's a reason it's the number one doctor recommended over the counter sleep aid brand. It helps you fall asleep faster, wake up less, and feel refreshed in the morning. Plus, unisom sleep tabs are clinically tested and proven effective and completely non habit forming.

[Nick]

So make the ultimate sleeper pick and.

[Ad Voice 2]

Put it to bed with unisom. Use as directed.

[Nick]

This is an I Heart podcast.