Behind the Bastards: Part One: Dire Wolves, Dr. George Church & The De-Extinction Grift

Release Date: June 3, 2025
Host(s): Langston Kerman & Matt Rogers
Production: Cool Zone Media and iHeartPodcasts

1. Introduction to the Episode

The episode kicks off with a lively conversation between hosts Langston Kerman and Matt Rogers, interspersed with humorous banter and light-hearted distractions. Early in the discussion, they set the stage for an in-depth exploration of a controversial and ambitious scientific endeavor.

2. The Dire Wolf De-Extinction Claim

Timestamp: [01:39]

Langston Kerman introduces the core topic: Colossal Biosciences' claim to have de-extincted the dire wolf, an extinct species of wolf, using genetic engineering methods reminiscent of "Jurassic Park" technologies.

Langston Kerman [02:01]: "A company that could not sound more like it belonged in a Michael Crichton novel."

Matt Rogers [02:32]: "Trying to rewrite Jurassic Park. Yes."

The hosts express skepticism about the grandeur of the company's claims, highlighting that the dire wolves brought back are not as colossal as often portrayed in popular media.

3. Colossal Biosciences: The Company Behind the Project

Timestamp: [10:32]

Colossal Biosciences is scrutinized for its marketing strategies and scientific legitimacy. The company relies heavily on the popularity of "Game of Thrones" to market their dire wolves, naming them after characters unrelated to the actual species, such as Khaleesi.

Langston Kerman [10:22]: "Naming a direwolf after a character in the books who had nothing to do with direwolves was by far the cringiest possible choice here."

The hosts critique the mismatch between the scientific reality of the dire wolves and their marketing portrayal.

4. Press and PR Strategies

Timestamp: [13:10]

The episode delves into how Colossal Biosciences uses media to amplify their claims. They reference an article by Michael Hilsit in the Los Angeles Times, illustrating how the company’s press releases are laden with hype that doesn't align with the scientific achievements.

Langston Kerman [15:11]: "This is just PR. First off, it never takes anything else."

The discrepancy between the company's claims and the actual capabilities of their technology is a central theme.

5. The Science Behind the Dire Wolves

Timestamp: [06:04] - [15:48]

The hosts provide a scientific overview of true dire wolves versus the ones purportedly brought back by Colossal Biosciences. They clarify that real dire wolves were not as large as depicted in "Game of Thrones," and emphasize that the genetic modifications made do not create true de-extinct species but rather altered modern wolves.

Langston Kerman [06:11]: "Dire wolves were a very real species of wolf... but they're not dire wolves. That's kind of where we're starting here."

They explain the limitations and inaccuracies in the company's genetic engineering claims, underscoring that the creatures are not true dire wolves.

6. George R.R. Martin's Involvement

Timestamp: [10:23] - [23:31]

The discussion shifts to George R.R. Martin, renowned author of "Game of Thrones," who serves as an investor and advisor to Colossal Biosciences. The hosts question the appropriateness of his involvement, given that he is not a scientist or geneticist.

Langston Kerman [14:33]: "He doesn't really know anything about dinosaurs. Right?"

They argue that Martin's role is primarily a PR move, leveraging his fame to promote the company's projects without contributing scientific expertise.

7. Ethical and Scientific Critique

Timestamp: [15:48] - [22:39]

Langston and Matt critically analyze the ethical implications of de-extinction and genetic modification projects. They express concerns over Colossal Biosciences' motives, suggesting that the company may be inflating its technological capabilities to secure venture capital funding.

Langston Kerman [15:17]: "They're doing something new and something that is in some ways very interesting, but it's not what they're claiming they're doing."

The hosts debate the potential consequences of treating DNA purely as a technological medium, raising questions about the moral responsibilities of scientists in such endeavors.

8. George Church: A Deep Dive into His Background

Timestamp: [24:50] - [43:58]

A comprehensive exploration of Dr. George Church’s personal and professional history unfolds. The hosts detail his impressive academic credentials, including his role as the Robert Winthrop Professor of Genetics at Harvard Medical School and his contributions to genome sequencing technologies.

Langston Kerman [40:34]: "He is a really foundational mind in modern genome sequencing."

Despite his scientific achievements, the hosts uncover contradictory aspects of Church's career, such as his history of flunking out of graduate school and his involvement in numerous startups—raising red flags about his credibility and motivations.

9. Connection to Jeffrey Epstein and Ethical Concerns

Timestamp: [57:31] - [78:48]

The episode takes a darker turn as it reveals Dr. George Church's associations with Jeffrey Epstein, a convicted sex offender. The hosts scrutinize the extent and nature of their relationship, highlighting multiple meetings and financial ties.

Langston Kerman [58:10]: "Dr. Church has fun ties to Jeffrey Epstein."

They discuss Epstein's illicit ambitions, including a plan to create a "baby ranch," and question Church's ethical judgment in maintaining relationships with Epstein despite his criminal convictions.

Matt Rogers [63:07]: "Superior humans. That's the trigger word for me."

The hosts reflect on the moral implications of accepting funding from controversial figures and the potential corruption of scientific integrity due to such associations.

10. Concluding Thoughts

Timestamp: [79:11] - [83:30]

In wrapping up the episode, Langston and Matt summarize their findings, emphasizing the problematic nature of Colossal Biosciences' claims and George Church's ethical lapses. They express disappointment in Church's choices and warn listeners about the dangers of conflating scientific innovation with questionable moral practices.

Langston Kerman [83:25]: "He's like, you know, I don't even know this. You're a scientist."

The hosts tease the continuation of the story in Part Two, promising further revelations about the intersection of science, ethics, and human failings.

Notable Quotes

• Langston Kerman [02:01]: "A company that could not sound more like it belonged in a Michael Crichton novel."

• Matt Rogers [02:32]: "Trying to rewrite Jurassic Park. Yes."

• Langston Kerman [10:22]: "Naming a direwolf after a character in the books who had nothing to do with direwolves was by far the cringiest possible choice here."

• Matt Rogers [15:11]: "This is just PR. First off, it never takes anything else."

• Langston Kerman [24:50]: "He just got lucky. Thank God."

• Langston Kerman [57:31]: "Because when we're talking about, like, this is a technology that could be good or could have some major problematic ethical implications."

• Matt Rogers [63:07]: "Superior humans. That's the trigger word for me."

Final Thoughts

"Behind the Bastards: Part One" offers a critical examination of Colossal Biosciences’ dire wolf de-extinction project, unraveling the complex web of scientific ambition, ethical oversights, and morally questionable associations. Through incisive analysis and compelling dialogue, Langston Kerman and Matt Rogers shed light on how the allure of groundbreaking science can sometimes overshadow fundamental ethical considerations, serving as a cautionary tale for both the scientific community and society at large.

For those intrigued by the intricate dance between innovation and morality, this episode provides a thought-provoking narrative that challenges listeners to question the true cost of scientific advancement.