← Behind the Bastards
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- [00:02]
Host 1
Call Zone Media.
- [00:04]
Host 2
Ah, What's Dick? My Cheneys. This is behind the Bastards, a podcast where every week we talk about the great decisions being made by the Democratic Party, which this week includes really, really burnishing their Dick Cheney credentials. We'll see how that works out in about three weeks. With me to talk about, you know, something related to this election. Yeah. Is our lovely guest, a contributing writer at Rolling Stone and contributing editor at Wired, Noah Schachtman. Noah, welcome to the podcast program show.
- [00:44]
Noah Schachtman
You gave this very confused look in between my first and last name.
- [00:47]
Host 2
What was up with that? I wrote the stuff you wanted me to because we have a different intro for you this time. I wrote it up at the top of the piece. And so the top of the piece is just the words Peter Thiel, because that's the subject of our episodes. So at the top of my article, it says, contributing writer Roland, contributing editor at Wired, Peter Thiel. And I was like, wait a second. So I had to, like, catch my brain and fix it in between.
- [01:11]
Host 1
That's incredible.
- [01:12]
Noah Schachtman
Look, I welcome my new colleague.
- [01:15]
Host 2
Yeah. Peter Thiel would be a great guest on the program, but I wouldn't do Peter Thiel for the. You know what? I might do Dick Cheney for the Peter Thiel episode.
- [01:23]
Noah Schachtman
How about he does me?
- [01:24]
Host 2
Yeah, yeah, there we go. Peter Thiel talks. Noah. Oh, man. So, yeah, Noah, how do you feel about being friendly with Dick Cheney? Is this a good decision? Is this going to work out for the Harris campaign?
- [01:44]
Noah Schachtman
I am not incredibly bullish on the old befriending war criminal campaign strategy.
- [01:56]
Host 2
I think it's in part a decision you make if you don't understand Republicans. Because, like, I grew up loving, like, with a family that loved George W. Bush, right? Like, he was a hero in my household as a kid. And no one liked Dick Cheney. Like, they didn't hate him, but, like, he was not a figure of admiration to anyone in my family. Like. Cause he was. That was kind of the point of Dick Cheney is he was, like, the guy behind the scenes that you don't need to like very much. It's just confusing to me. It was wild that they think there's a bunch of Republicans out there who will change their vote based on this.
- [02:32]
Host 1
It was wild at the dnc. How credible it was that this rumor that George W. Bush was gonna come out and speak at the dnc.
- [02:39]
Host 2
Oh, I would have lost my mind.
- [02:41]
Host 1
Everyone was like, oh, he's coming, he's coming. It was, like, more credible than Beyonce.
- [02:46]
Host 2
What's happening here?
- [02:48]
Noah Schachtman
Hey, there's still time.
- [02:50]
Host 2
Yeah, there's still time. There's still time. And you know who, I don't know if he's. He's got a chance to be worse than George W. Bush. I wouldn't say he's there yet. Is Peter Thiel. Peter Thiel. And that's who we're going to talk about when we come back from the cold open to warm things up a little bit.
- [03:10]
Sloan Glass
Sometimes where a crime took place leads you to answer why the crime happened in the first place. Hi, I'm Sloan Glass, host of the new true crime podcast American Homicide. In this series, we'll examine some of the country's most infamous and mysterious, mysterious murders and learn how the location of the crime becomes a character in the story. Listen to American homicide on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [03:45]
Ed Zitron
From. Audio up, the creators of Stephen King's Strawberry Spring Comes the Unborn, A shocking true story.
- [03:52]
Host 2
My babies. Please. My babies.
- [03:55]
Ed Zitron
One woman, two lives and a secret she would kill to protect.
- [03:59]
Host 2
She went crazy, shot and killed all her farm animals, slaughtered them in front of the kids, Tried to burn their house down.
- [04:08]
Ed Zitron
Listen to the unborn on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [04:15]
Unknown Speaker
It's been 30 years since the horror began.
- [04:18]
Host 2
911, what's your emergency? He said he was going to kill me.
- [04:22]
Unknown Speaker
In the 1990s, the tourist town of Domino beach became the hunting ground of a monster. We thought the murders had end, but what if we were wrong?
- [04:32]
Noah Schachtman
Come back to Domino Beach. I'll be waiting for you.
- [04:37]
Unknown Speaker
Listen to the Murder Years, Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [04:45]
Ed Zitron
Hi, I'm Ed Zittron, host of the Better Offline podcast.
- [04:48]
Host 2
And we're kicking off our second season.
- [04:50]
Ed Zitron
Digging into Text Elite and how they've turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI.
- [04:57]
Host 2
To the destruction of Google, search Better.
- [05:00]
Ed Zitron
Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech.
- [05:04]
Host 2
Brought to you by an industry veteran.
- [05:06]
Ed Zitron
With nothing to lose. Listen to Better offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts wherever else you get your podcasts from.
- [05:15]
Host 2
Muhammad ali, George Foreman, 1974. George Foreman was champion of the world. Ali was smart and he was handsome.
- [05:23]
Noah Schachtman
The story behind the Rumble in the Jungle is like a Hollywood movie, but.
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Host 2
That is only half the story. There's also James Brown, Bill Withers, B.B. king, Miriam Makeba. All the biggest black artists on the planet together in Africa.
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Host 1
It was a big deal.
- [05:37]
Host 2
Listen to Rumble, Ali, Foreman, and the soul of 74 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Noah. So we're back. Peter Thiel. How would you describe, in brief, if someone is like, hey, I hear there's this Peter Thiel guy who's influencing elections or whatever, who is he? How would you describe Peter Thiel? What would be your elevator? Like? Oh, that's who this guy is.
- [06:07]
Noah Schachtman
He's like the power behind the weirdest curtain, I guess, is how I would describe it. Like, deeply strange. Deeply influential, I think would be my elevator pitch.
- [06:22]
Host 2
Yeah, yeah, he's. I would say, like, he's the guy whose money is responsible for getting. Oh, shit, what's his name? The hillbilly J.D. vance started. He's the guy who, you know, like, backed Trump pretty early on in 2016. He was the, you know, the billionaire who came up and endorsed him at the RNC that year and talked about how, like, he was supporting the Republicans as a gay man. These are all facts about Peter Teeter.
- [06:52]
Host 1
I'm really glad you're able to forget J.D. vance's name. That feels healthy to me.
- [06:57]
Host 2
Yeah, it took a lot of work and a lot of gas station substances, but I managed to do it. I managed to do it. It was mixing Kratom, Clamato, and then one of those yellow jackets truckers take together. I reached a state of what I think the Buddhists call nirvana. And, yeah, all knowledge of J.D. vance fled from my mind.
- [07:19]
Noah Schachtman
Dude, I'm gonna fucking throw up on my keyboard here. Yeah, I mean, it seems like it's like in the weirdo, crypto fascist. Right. If you follow the roots down far.
- [07:34]
Host 2
Enough, it all comes back to Peter. Yeah, yeah. And there's a couple of ways of looking at Thiel. One of them is he is a capitalist Lenin. And what I mean by that, I'm not comparing the two, like, ideologically, but Lenin is a guy who grew up kind of in the upper middle class strata of his society and from an extremely early age, hated the system that he lived under because his brother was killed by the czar and dedicated himself to its destruction. And he went about destroying that system very methodically and very effectively. Right. Peter is a guy who grew up in the upper middle class strata of his culture, always seems to have hated the systems that ran the country he lived in and dedicated himself from an early age at getting resources and then kind of methodically Destroying the system which is representative democracy that he lived under. That's one way of looking at Peter. The other is that Peter is a guy who is fairly intelligent, has okay instincts, but not as good as he thinks they are. And he's just kind of been careening from point to point, making gambles that have led him to this position where he is now backing the Republicans to the hilt in order to hopefully crumble the system of democracy enough that he gets to rule his own little bitty city somewhere on the West Coast. Right. One of them is Peter Thiel, is the master plotter. And the other is that he's this kind of like, reactive figure. And I don't actually know which is the better way to look at this guy. Some of it's got to come down to personal preference. But he's an interesting character. And I think he's probably, of all of the figures on the right now, one of the ones that's more. It's easiest to kind of respect at an intellectual level because he's very smart and he's succeeded in a lot of his. Like, the reason why the master plotter thing kind of has a lot of traction is he's. He's been very successful in a lot of his goals over time. Like, he's been willing to. He's been able to. He has a degree of, like, focus and discipline that's fairly rare on the right.
- [09:54]
Noah Schachtman
Yeah, it's pretty weird. Also, isn't he also like drinking the blood of younger people or something like that?
- [10:01]
Host 2
We're going to talk about that later on in the series. It's unclear to me if he's ever drank any young people's blood, but he's definitely been accused of it and has expressed an interest in it. I think the guy who definitely is drinking young people's blood is Brian Johnson, that rich founder dude who's obsessed with reducing his biological age back to 17. He takes his son's blood as a supplement.
- [10:29]
Noah Schachtman
Really?
- [10:30]
Host 2
Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, he brags about it. Yeah. Like, he's very open about that. Peter has always. Peter is on the record as saying, I don't do that. He was just kind of. He's invested in a lot of companies that did anti aging stuff, some of which, like, were looking into plasma replacement. Right. But it's unclear if he ever did it. And if he didn't do it, it would be because, like, he just didn't think it worked. He is a big advocate of taking human growth hormone as an anti aging supplement. So I Think it's one of those things where if he doesn't. If he hasn't done the young people's blood thing, it's just because he decided the science wasn't there or he's just.
- [11:07]
Noah Schachtman
So fucking roided out that he's just sit down enough.
- [11:10]
Host 2
Yeah, yeah. The roids have given him enough blood. There's no more room for blood in Peter's body. So, Noah, like many of the worst things on this earth, Peter Thiel began in Germany, Frankfurt, to be specific, where he was born on October 11, 1967. His father, Klaus, was a chemical engineer who the very next year, 68, got hired by a consulting firm that specialized in heavy industry, including oil and gas refining. The founder of the company, Arthur G. McKee, had owned a series of steel foundries in the Cleveland area where the thiels moved in 1968. At this point, and I think this is probably clear to most of our listeners, in 1968, Cleveland is just a series of river fires with some suburbs attached, right? Like, it's not the city we know and tolerate today. It's nothing but the Cuyahoga burning in a couple of soot drenched houses. And the reason the Cuyahoga is always on fire is guys like Arthur McKee, who runs Steel foundries, you know, so that is, Peter grows up with his dad kind of working in the destroying the planet industry. Like, he's an oil and gas man working for an industrial magnate in fucking Cleveland. So Klaus works for a firm in Cleveland for a couple of years while he gets his graduate degree. And in 1971, when Peter was 4, his parents have a second child, Patrick, now Thiel's biographer, Max Chafkin, author of the Contrarian, which is a book that will be a sizable source for this. Although I do have some disagree. I think Chafkin's a very good writer, good biographer. There's a couple of areas where I disagree with him that we'll talk about here. But yeah, he has described Klaus and Peter's mom, Suzanne as fanatical Republicans who were absolutely gaga for Nixon. That may be true. Chafkin certainly knows more about this than me. However, Peter disagrees with that characterization of his parents. He doesn't seem to consider them to have been fanatical Republicans or religious extremists. And Chafecin also kind of paints them as hardcore Christian conservatives. Peter is an outspoken Christian. It's unclear to me, again, if this is just Peter disliking the description of himself and his parents as extremists or if this is that Chafecin, you know, maybe doesn't have all of the context. We don't get a lot of detail about Teal's parents. So it's not perfectly clear. Right. Chafecin describes his father as cold, bordering on cruelty at times. Again, this is a characterization Peter would disagree with, at least publicly, in terms of, like, stories that paint that picture of his dad as cruel. I don't see a lot of really good, detailed evidence about it. The story that Chafkin cites as kind of evidence of how cold and cruel Peter's dad was is a story that Peter tells a lot. Two biographers I've seen this, or two interviewers I've seen this story recounted in a couple of different articles that interviewed Peter before Chaffkin's biography came out. And the story is that one day when Peter was a little kid, like maybe four or five, he was looking at a rug in the family home that was made from a cowhide. And he asked his dad, where did this rug come from? And Klaus, matter of fact, they explained that it was made from a dead cow. Peter asked, like, what. What does it mean that something's dead? And his dad told him, quote, death happens to all animals, all people. It will happen to me one day. It will happen to you one day. And Chafkin describes this as a moment of, like, brutal honesty. And he kind of insinuates that it may have done some damage to Peter, writing that he, quote, would return to the cow and the brutal finality of the thing again and again, even in middle age. Now, it does seem to be accurate that Peter this stuck in his mind. I just don't know that. I consider that a brutal description of death that seems like, you know, kind of just factual. Right. Like, I had a conversation with my dad about death that wasn't all that different from this. Right. Like, it happens to everything. It'll happen to me, It'll happen to you. Like, how else do you explain death to a kid? Right?
- [15:26]
Noah Schachtman
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. That feels like pretty. Like a pretty weak antecedent for everything that's about to transpire.
- [15:36]
Host 2
I think what's going on here is that Peter is obsessed with death and dying. Right. He's put a huge amount of money into reversing aging and anti senescence and all this kind of stuff. So he clearly is a guy who's obsessed with his own mortality. And you're looking for evidence of that in his childhood. And he does tell this story he told the New Yorker in 2011, that this was a very, very disturbing day. So obviously this does stick in his mind, but I don't know that that makes the case that his dad is cold. I just don't see it from that anecdote. Obviously, that's one anecdote. We're talking about a whole childhood, so that doesn't mean that he was not cold. I just don't. I feel like what we may get from the fact that this story fucks Peter up so much, says less about his dad and more about who Peter is as a person. Because I think most of us have this experience and don't grow up dedicated to conquering mortality. We're just kind of like, oh, yeah, everything dies. All right, well, I better figure out something I'm going to do with my life. Right?
- [16:38]
Noah Schachtman
Yeah.
- [16:41]
Host 2
You know, like gas station drugs. That was my decision, which I think if Peter had gotten into that. Just buy some of these trucker pills, Peter, you know? Yeah, yeah. They'll keep you alive forever as well as HGH will. So anyway, Peter has never made peace with death or what he calls the ideology of the inevitability of the death of every individual. I also love that description, the idea.
- [17:09]
Noah Schachtman
Ideology.
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Host 2
The ideology. It's not an ideology, man. It's just a fact. What that's like seeing some people who are, like, staying back from a cliff's edge on a windy day and be like, oh, you fallen for the ideology of dying in a fall? Come on.
- [17:23]
Host 1
The ideology of the inevitability of the death of every individual.
- [17:28]
Host 2
Yeah. I think I've had conversations with anti seatbelt guys about the ideology of nanny state culture, and it's like, no, man, I just don't want to die in a car crash.
- [17:41]
Noah Schachtman
This dude's all libertarian, right?
- [17:44]
Host 2
Oh, yeah, as all hell. Well, nowadays, I don't know if you'd call it that, but he definitely comes out of libertarianism. Yeah.
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Noah Schachtman
And so. And when I think of libertarians, I think of, like, people who never evolved past, like, second semester freshman dorm room ideology. And that feels very much like.
- [18:08]
Host 2
The.
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Noah Schachtman
Ideology of the inevitability of death. Feels very like third bong hit freshman year dorm room. Yeah, dude. Kind of deep thoughts.
- [18:21]
Host 2
Yeah, I agree with that. What I will say for libertarians, I always have to give a little bit of pushback just because of where I come out. You've got your two kinds, You've got your dorm room. I'm gonna read fucking Murray Rothbard and basically become a fascist whenever anyone suggests I pay my fair share in taxes. Libertarians which Peterkin is. No, no, no. The kind that I respect are. I wouldn't say I'm there now, but I do have a degree of respect and love for like after the big hurricane in North Carolina, you had like several dozen guys who own their own helicopters and often built their own helicopters who like flew in just. Cause they're like, they're like helicopter. Helicopter libertarians. I like my helicopter libertarians, where it's like I just don't trust the state. So I built my own helicopter to do disaster rescue. Those guys are fine.
- [19:13]
Noah Schachtman
Yeah, those guys. Although are those the same guys that also were the militia that tried to interfere with.
- [19:21]
Host 2
Those guys were in trucks. Those guys were in trucks. That might be yet another different kind of libertarian.
- [19:28]
Noah Schachtman
You got your helicopter libertarians and your truck libertarians.
- [19:33]
Host 2
Very pro helicopter libertarian in this house. Okay.
- [19:37]
Noah Schachtman
Yeah, no, those guys are cool.
- [19:38]
Host 2
Those guys are fine. So, yeah, that's Peter's inciting incident. Right. If you're making the Peter Thiel movie, you start it with his dad explaining death to him while looking at this cowhide rug. Now, shortly after that conversation, his dad decides to move the family away from Cleveland, usually a good decision. And live every engineer's dream, which is of course helping South Africa build a uranium mine. You know what engineer doesn't want to live that. So the Thiel family moves to South Africa. Kind of. Yeah. I mean they're technically in South Africa. Peter's parents sent him to an expensive whites only private school called Pridwin. According to the school's website, it was founded in 1923 as a non denominational school rooted in Christian ethics and values. Today, the Prydw website prominently features numerous stock photos of non white kids. So it does seem like maybe things have been forced to move forward there. But when Peter went there, it would have taught racial separation as an obvious good and a necessity. Right. This is. We're talking South Africa in the 70s, right? Yeah. After Prydwen, Peter went to a German language public school. He was a good student. He always does well in school. But these are not happy years for him, at least as Chafkin paints quote, a picture from that era shows a sullen boy in shorts, knickers and a tie carrying an adult sized briefcase. A grade school classmate in Namibia, George Erb recalled Thiel as smart but withdrawn. He had that distinct striking smart look about him, almost like he seemed bored. Erb said, we didn't really mingle a lot with Peter in school, though we always knew the miners kids would not stay long in Town. Now, as he noted here, I said that they moved to South Africa. They are though actually not in what in South Africa, they're in Namibia, which a big chunk of Namibia is governed and run by South Africa at this point, right at the time, a lot of what we call Namibia today was known to South Africans as Southwest Africa. And it was governed under a military occupation as if it were essentially the little brother of the apartheid state. The whole reason that South Africa has a uranium mine comes down to environmental regulations in Western nations around this period, some of the very earliest waves of uranium had been mined in places like the US and Australia. But pretty quickly, once it becomes clear that we're going to need a lot of uranium, it also becomes clear that uranium mining is really bad for the environment. So we better do that a lot in Africa, right? Actually, King Leopold's old colony in the cargo becomes a major source of uranium mining. And Namibia in this period becomes the fourth largest global producer of uranium. During the Cold War, we are using up quite a lot of the stuff. So that's why South Africa is a big part of why South Africa is so hesitant to give up. Their occupation of Namibia is like Namibia has a shitload of uranium. And South Africa wants that for several reasons, none of them good. Now, the managing and engineering staff at the mine where Klaus worked was white. The workforce were largely migrants on one year contracts. For white families. This was a good job. You had good access to medical care, you had nice houses. You're basically living in a company town that is built for the white employees of this mine. There's a country club there, there's quality schools. Things are a lot uglier for the contract workers who are being brought in to do a lot of the heavy lifting at the mine. Now, much of this ugliness came from the fact that South Africa was not allowed to be in southwest Namibia, right? They are not supposed to be occupying this chunk of Namibia. The UN had ordered them to leave in 1966, but by the time the Thiels moved into the country, South Africa had yet to move their troops out. This is like 1971 or two, right? So they've overstayed their visa by quite a while. But you don't really need a visa if you have enough guns.
- [23:48]
Noah Schachtman
Yeah, this whole thing is fucking grim, man. Yeah, apartheid uranium mine is just fucking grim.
- [23:57]
Host 2
Peter's childhood is in an apartment uranium mine.
- [24:02]
Noah Schachtman
Like, I thought Elon Musk had like, kind of like super villain origin story with the emerald mine, but the uranium.
- [24:10]
Host 2
Mine really trumps this, Honestly, bro, I'll take an emerald mine over this any day in a fucking week. So in 1973, the ICC, the International Criminal Court, upheld that UN ruling and said again, South Africa, you've got to leave Namibia. This is not your country, what are you doing there? To which South Africa says, we are getting a lot uranium and we're not going to leave. This leads to sanctions against the sale of minerals from mines in occupied Namibia. Sanctions that are ignored by much of the West. And I'm going to quote, read about that via a quote I found on the website Mining Sea. The decree warned that anyone founding found extracting and selling minerals from Namibia would be held liable. Beneficiaries to Namibia's minerals, including Britain and the United States, except Sweden did not honor the decree when uranium production from Rossing would satisfy Britain's 10% demand. So because uranium was so needed for this buildup, basically a lot of the west was like, no, fuck what the UN says, we're going to keep paying South Africa for their uranium because we really need it. Right. Tale as old as time. Now, the company that ran the mine where Klaus worked as a contractor was called Rio Tinto. And they had. You're not going to be surprised to hear that this illegal uranium mine company has an evil history. But they have like a comically evil history.
- [25:37]
Noah Schachtman
Yeah, I feel like I've heard that name before.
- [25:40]
Host 2
Oh yeah. So in the late 1930s, Rio Tinto had called on Francisco Franco to use his soldiers to crush left wing miners protesting against bad working conditions in Spain. The head of the company at the time, Sir Auckland Geddes, which is such an evil mine owner's name. What an amazing evil mine owner name, Sir Auckland Geddes. Jesus. Geddes bragged that, quote, miners found guilty of troublemaking are marshalled and shot. Big fan of Franco. The leaders of Rio Tinto. As another interesting side note, Noah, Rio Tinto was also a major source of raw materials for the Nazi rearmament campaign. These are the guys that build the Wehrmacht back up into fighting shape. Thank God. Where would we be without Rio Tinto?
- [26:28]
Noah Schachtman
My God, it's like LexCorp or something now.
- [26:32]
Host 2
By the early 70s, there were no more Nazis to arm. So Rio set about finding their next best equivalent, which is of course Zaparte, South Africa. Right now, since they're running an illegal uranium mine in occupied Namibia, they're like, why not go full fascist? And they decide to operate their facilities in Namibia like a concentration camp. And I'm going to quote from an article by the London Mining network here, black workers constructing the Rossing uranium mine lived in appalling conditions in temporary camps, which researchers found akin to slavery. By akin to slavery, it means that actually leaving work for any meaning but being for any reason, but being dismissed by your manager was a crime. Workers who misplaced or forgot their ID badge could be jailed. Now, the fact that someone might get hired to consult at such a mine doesn't imply that they were involved with setting up or executing any of these policies, but it does suggest that one was broadly fine with them. As Max Chafkin writes, a contract laborer on the construction project, the project Klaus's company was helping to oversee. Who said workers had not been told they were building a uranium mine and were thus unaware of the risks of radiation. The only clue had been that white employees would hand out wages from behind glass, seemingly trying to avoid contamination themselves. The report mentioned workers dying like flies in 1976 while the mine was under construction. So this is so bad. This is pretty illegal. Pretty evil.
- [28:04]
Noah Schachtman
So it's an illegal apartheid uranium mining concentration camp.
- [28:10]
Host 2
Yeah, yeah. That's Peter's dad's job and some of his earliest memories as a kid.
- [28:15]
Noah Schachtman
And he's disturbed by, like, Bessie the cow getting killed.
- [28:18]
Host 2
He's disturbed by cows dying. What? I don't know, Peter, if you want to end death, the first step might be ending illegal uranium mines.
- [28:26]
Noah Schachtman
Right.
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Host 2
You just care about death as a concept.
- [28:30]
Noah Schachtman
I cannot believe how cartoonish this is.
- [28:33]
Host 2
It's so funny. It's like the funniest backstory he could have, just being the guy he is coming from this as a background, like a lot of these guys, like Elon Musk. There's this period of time in Musk's backstory. He's like, oh, well, he has this kid who's moved around a bunch. His family sucks. His dad's this abusive monster. He's bullied as a kid. It's a really sad. I can see how he. I can see how a couple of different kinds of kid could have come out of this. Some of them who would have been a lot better than Musk was. Right. Maybe he wasn't always destined to be the kind of guy he is. With Thiel, you're like, oh, yeah, no, this childhood was tailor made to produce Peter Thiel.
- [29:13]
Noah Schachtman
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.
- [29:16]
Host 2
You know what else was Taylor made to produce Peter Thiel? Noah.
- [29:20]
Noah Schachtman
Mm. I bet I'm about to find out.
- [29:23]
Host 2
Yeah. The sponsors of our show are attempting to breed clones of Peter Thiel in a tank. It's kind of like that, the fourth alien movie, Alien Resurrection, down to the fact that they are mixing Peter Thiel's genes with Sigourney Weaver. So let's see what happens, everybody. You know, we'll see what happens.
- [29:44]
Sloan Glass
Whenever a homicide happens, two questions immediately come to who did this and why? And sometimes the answer to those questions can be found in the where. Where the crime happened. I'm journalist Sloan Glass, and I host the new podcast, American Homicide. Each week we'll explore some of this country's most infamous and mysterious murders. And you'll learn how the location of the crime became a character in the story. On American Homicide, we'll go coast to coast and visit places like the wide open New Mexico desert, the swampy Louisiana bayou, and the frozen Alaska wilderness. And we'll learn how each region of the country holds deadly secrets. So join me, Sloan Glass, on the new true crime podcast, American Homicide. Listen to American homicide on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [30:54]
Ed Zitron
In the quiet town of Avella, Pennsylvania, Jared and Christy. Akron seemed to have it all. A whirlwind romance, a new home, and twins on the way. What no one knew was that Christy was hiding a secret so shocking it would tear their world apart.
- [31:09]
Host 2
911 response. What's your emergency? My babies. Please. My babies.
- [31:14]
Ed Zitron
One woman, two lives, and the truth more terrifying than anyone could imagine.
- [31:19]
Host 2
They had her as one of the suspects, but they could never prove it.
- [31:22]
Host 1
You're going to go to jail if you don't come with us right now.
- [31:25]
Host 2
Throughout this whole thing, I kept telling.
- [31:27]
Host 1
Myself, nobody's that crazy.
- [31:29]
Host 2
Crazy.
- [31:29]
Ed Zitron
Uncover the chilling mystery that will leave you questioning everything. A story of the lengths we go to protect our darkest secrets.
- [31:37]
Host 2
She went batshit crazy. Shot and killed all her farm animals. Slaughtered them in front of the kids. Tried to burn her house down.
- [31:45]
Ed Zitron
Audio represents the unborn on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [31:54]
Host 1
Is your country falling apart? Feeling tired? Depressed? A little bit revolutionary? Consider this. Start your own country.
- [32:02]
Host 2
I planted the flag and just kind of looked out of like, this is mine. I own this.
- [32:06]
Host 1
It's surprisingly easy.
- [32:07]
Host 2
55 gallons of water, 500 pounds of concrete.
- [32:10]
Host 1
Everybody's doing it.
- [32:12]
Noah Schachtman
I am King Ernest Emmanuel.
- [32:13]
Host 1
I am the Queen of Lidonia.
- [32:15]
Ed Zitron
I'm Jackson I, King of Capperburg.
- [32:17]
Noah Schachtman
I am the supreme leader of the.
- [32:18]
Host 2
Grand Republic of Montonia.
- [32:19]
Host 1
Be part of a great colonial tradition.
- [32:21]
Host 2
Well, why can't I trade my own country? My forefathers did that themselves.
- [32:25]
Host 1
What could go wrong.
- [32:26]
Noah Schachtman
No country willingly gives up their territory.
- [32:29]
Host 2
I was making rocket with the black powder. You know, with explosive warhead. Oh, my God. What is that? Bullets? Bullet holes. We still have the off road portion to go.
- [32:42]
Host 1
Listen to Escape from Zakistan.
- [32:44]
Host 2
And we're losing daylight fast.
- [32:46]
Host 1
That's Escape from zaqistan on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [32:54]
Unknown Speaker
It's been 30 years since the horror began.
- [32:58]
Host 2
911.
- [32:58]
Host 1
What's your emergency?
- [33:00]
Unknown Speaker
Someone.
- [33:01]
Host 2
He.
- [33:02]
Unknown Speaker
He said he was going to kill me. Three decades since our small beach community was terrorized by a serial killer.
- [33:09]
Noah Schachtman
Maybe, my dear Courtney, we're not done after all.
- [33:13]
Unknown Speaker
In the 1990s, the tourist town of Domino beach became the hunting ground of a monster. No one was safe. No one could stop it. Police spun their wheels, politicians spun the truth, while fear gripped us tighter with every body that was found. We thought it was over. We thought the murders had ended. But what if we were wrong?
- [33:38]
Host 2
Come back to Domino Beach, Courtney. Come home. I'll be waiting for you.
- [33:44]
Unknown Speaker
Listen to the Murder Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [33:54]
Host 1
Hey there, my little creeps. It's your favorite ghost host, Tereza. And guess what? Haunting is back, dropping just in time for spooky season. Now, I know you've probably been wandering the mortal plane wondering when I be back to fill your ears with deliciously unsettling stories. Well, wonder no more, because we've got a ghoulishly good lineup ready for you. Let's just say things get a bit extra. We're talking spirits, demons, and the kind of supernatural chaos that'll make your spooky season complete. You know how much I love this time of year. It's the one time I'm actually on trend. So grab your pumpkin spice dust off that Ouija board. Just don't call me unless it's urgent and tune in for new episodes every week. Remember, the veils are thin, the stories are spooky, and your favorite ghost host is back and badder than ever. Listen to haunting on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [34:59]
Host 2
We're back. And in the time that we were off air, the Peter Thiel Sigourney Weaver clones escape containment in our. In our sponsors orbital base, things do not seem to be going well. Sorry. That was probably predictable. Anyway, we'll keep you updated on the situation. So we're talking about uranium mining in South Africa, which is getting South Africa in trouble. And it's one of those things where if it had just been about the money South Africa could make exporting uranium, it probably wouldn't have been worthwhile to piss off the whole international community to keep this mine open. But that's not the only reason why South Africa wants a uranium mine. A big part of why they insisted on keeping this thing operational was that they are an unpopular apartheid government that is in the process of becoming a global pariah. They are dealing with something of an extension of an existential PR crisis because of all of, like, the racism and violence, violence that the world is watching them do. And the white rulers of the country decided the best way for them to gain long term security for the regime was to get nuclear weapons, even if they had to break international law to do so. Right. And South Africa does eventually construct a handful of very illegal nukes. Right. They are not supposed to have these internationally. No one's supposed to be allowed to be arming themselves with new nukes. South Africa makes their nukes. And it does not, as, as you may be aware, keep the apartheid regime in power. The government does in fact, fall, and in a kind of unique historical case, before the government hands over power to the anc, which is the party that takes over as apartheid goes out, they disassemble all of their nuclear weapons. To this day, this makes South Africa the only nation to have ever made nuclear weapons and given them up voluntarily. Obviously Ukraine had nuclear weapons when the US has crumbled and gave those up. But South Africa actually makes their own nuclear weapons independently and then disassembles them and stops being a nuclear power. And that's a unique thing in history. Although they do it, I think mainly for reasons of racism, it's still pretty wild.
- [37:24]
Noah Schachtman
I never heard that before.
- [37:25]
Host 2
Yeah, yeah. It's an interesting story. So while Peter's dad was. I don't know how you. Again, how you want to parse out his complicity here, but he is adjacent to some very bad things. Right. While his dad's doing this, Peter himself gets very little that seems to be good. From his two and a half, three years in Africa, he mostly claims to have played alone a lot near the family house. He started to develop a habit for competitive chess and he became a voracious leader. Less than three years after less than three years away, the family decides they just haven't had enough Cleveland and they move back. Yeah. Then as soon as they're back in Cleveland, they're like, oh, holy shit. Cleveland is still not A great place to live. The rivers have not stopped being on fire, so they move one last time to the Bay Area. Their specific final residence is Foster City, which is just northwest of San Jose and south of San Francisco proper. It's a fairly affluent town. And in the late 1970s, Thiel's family seems like they probably would have qualified as upper middle class, right? And this is what you tend to see with the first and second generation of tech industry giants. Guys like Gates and Jobs all come from or move to similar parts of California and they're all kind of at a similar level of family affluence. Right. Their parents are not like, rich. They're not going to inherit generational wealth. But their parents have enough money to shower their kids with attention and educational opportunities that really weren't available before. And in part because of some of the decisions guys like this make aren't going to be available after these. Not do as many kids now in terms of the parenting situation, because Bill Gates parents, doting, absolutely, like, obsessed with his development and health. Steve's parents, again, doting, like, really, really like caring parents who were very much focused on their child doing well. It is unclear to me how much attention Peter gets. This is kind of an open question. It's left as an open question. In Chafecin's book, Peter does not seem to embrace, like, the claims that his parents were very strict or, you know, fanatical conservatives. But we also get very little of them in stories, right? Which is very different from, like, Steve Jobs told a lot of stories about his parents. Right. And so did Gates. So I don't really know if this is a case of, you know, he didn't want to say much about his parents, that this is an area of insecurity for him, or if it's just he's not a guy who's super talkative about his background, which he definitely isn't. You know, that may just explain it. But it does seem that his parents are not kind of central to his feelings or ambitions in the same way that they really seem to have been for a lot of of other tech industry icons that came up at a similar place in period. We do know as a child, Peter Thiel is a massive nerd. He is one of the first wave of really big nerds. And he's particularly a fantasy nerd for his kind of fantasy and sci fi. He reads the Lord of the Rings as a little kid. He falls in love with Tolkien. He would later claim that he memorized the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Which I suspect is probably overstating things. That's a lot to memorize.
- [40:39]
Noah Schachtman
Yeah. That's like 3,000 words. I mean, 3,000 pages.
- [40:42]
Host 2
Yeah, 3,000 pages. Yeah. That might be a little much. I don't know how much I believe that. But did he just memorize the English.
- [40:50]
Noah Schachtman
Or the Elvish and the English.
- [40:52]
Host 2
Did he have the Elvish down? Does he know the Black speech by heart?
- [40:59]
Noah Schachtman
Maybe that's all he speaks at home. Maybe that's why he couldn't talk about his folks that much.
- [41:03]
Host 2
Yeah. Yeah. Very few journalists know the Black speech, as you might imagine, from a kid who at least probably memorized passages from the Lord of the Rings. Peter gets bullied a lot, Right. Not super surprising from this kid. He's also very small and skinny, and according to one peer, he gets pushed around a lot as a little kid. This may have had something to do with what seems to have been a flair for escape. In addition to loving Tolkien. Peter is one of the very first Dungeons and Dragons players. Right. Because D and D has just come out while he is a kid, and he and his friends are playing it while it is very new. They played every single weekend. And this may have caused a degree of conflict with his parents because there are at least some stories that his parents. He couldn't play at his house because his parents, being very strict Christians, thought that D and D was evil. Again, this is one of those things. Is that totally accurate? I don't know. He definitely played a lot of D and D. It may have been a kind of thing that he had to skirt around his family, because it is. And there's this thing that you get from Peter that everyone will say about him, which is that he's a habitual contrarian. Whatever people are doing, he has to be doing the opposite. There's this big moral panic against Dungeons and Dragons at the time. It very much fits in with that, that he would want to be playing this game that a lot of people in his life and maybe even his parents consider to be evil. That is very fitting with the guy. Peter Thiel is whatever the people around him are saying is bad. That's what Peter's going to want to do, right? Yeah. Outside of that, his main hobby seems to have been chess. He's extremely good at this. He was generally ranked number one by his school chess club. He plays a lot of speed chess. He probably could have been a professional chess guy. But there's some quotes he makes later where he's like, I had to choose between chess and everything. Else in life. Right. I just get too obsessed with it. George Packer, writing for the New Yorkers, summarizes. His chess kit was decorated with a sticker carrying the motto Born to Win. On the rare occasions when he lost in college, he swept the pieces off the board. He would say, show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser. So maybe not a guy you want to play with, right?
- [43:28]
Noah Schachtman
Jesus Christ.
- [43:29]
Host 2
Yeah, a little bit of a dick. This is the kind of guy who I don't know. Again, I'm a big believer in the fact that everyone who's proud of their chess performance should get into the real game of skill. Warhammer 40,000. Show us your real skill, Peter. Paint some fucking orcs.
- [43:48]
Noah Schachtman
Do you have Born to Win stickered on your warhammer?
- [43:52]
Host 2
I have it actually tattooed. You can't see it. The camera blots out my tattoos. But I've got like one of those throat tattoos. I got a stick and poke when I was in prison that just says Born to Win and it's got a picture of an orc on it. Yeah, congrats. Yeah, yeah, it's good. It really makes me popular at the gaming store with the 14 year olds. So Chafkin has my favorite story of Peter in his chess phase, because it is the one that makes me actually kind of hopeful that we can beat this guy eventually. Once at a tournament, he was playing a scrimmage match for fun in between games and seemed to be only half paying attention. His opponent was inexperienced and not aware of what was happening. Put Peter in check. Then he realized, to both of their surprise, that it was checkmate. Peter became visibly distraught and was unable to regain his composure for the rest of the tournament and lost the rest of the matches he played a defeat, even a meaningless. This one was too much to handle, huh? Yeah. Okay, that's a little hopeful there. A little bit of motivation for you kids. Yeah.
- [44:56]
Noah Schachtman
Yeah. Maybe it wasn't so. Born to Win.
- [44:59]
Host 2
Yeah. So, among the nerds, Peter was king. He was the most academically gifted of his friends, and I suspect was the best at doing things like cooking up overpowered characters in Dungeons and Dragons. He had a fantastic memory, and he expounded upon different short stories and novels by guys like Asimov and Clark with a faculty that would have embarrassed most adults. He's the kind of guy who can, like, quote passages of stories he likes from memory. One of Peter's nerdy peers said that he and others were, quote, in awe of Thiel, but added, I don't know that he had any close friends, so he's got like some peers, but maybe not a lot of people that he, like, actually entrusts any pieces of himself to in any meaningful way. Right. Again, a lonely person. Person in a lot of ways. Peter is generally described by the kids he spent time around, the way wizards were in Peter's favorite fantasy novels, as this, like, mysterious figure who can do great and terrifying things, but who's also fundamentally separate from all of the people around him. Right.
- [46:03]
Noah Schachtman
That's your characterization. You're calling him a wizard or he called himself a wizard?
- [46:06]
Host 2
No, no, no. That's just kind of my description based on what other kids said about Peter. Right. That he's like, we're in awe of him. He could do all these amazing things, but we didn't really understand him. He seemed to be someone who was fundamentally separate. That's kind of like the way Gandalf is written in the Lord of the Rings. Right? Wizards are these, like, mysterious and kind of frightening figures that you can't ever really get that, like they're kind of unknowable in certain senses. Right. That's just kind of the way other kids talked about.
- [46:34]
Noah Schachtman
Peter seems more Saruman than Gandalf.
- [46:38]
Host 2
He's definitely. I mean, he's going to build a company named Palantir. So. Yeah, that's probably a fair, fair note. Noah. As he became a teenager, the bullying changed from physical violence to sillier shit that was also calculated to make him feel unwelcome and othered. One example would be that a group of kids frequently stole for sale signs from around the neighborhood and set them up on Peter's lawn. And then they would harass him about it the next day at school, being like, hey, when are you moving? Right? And like, that actually legitimately does suck. Peter, if you're listening, that's like a really shitty thing those kids did to you. I'm sorry, that's a bummer. You know, you can, like, that's. That's kind of like probably more devastating than the physical violence. Like people stealing lawn signs to, like, make it clear we want you and your family to leave. Like, yeah, I can see. I can see how that feeds into a guy becoming like Peter is. By the time the high school years come around, you've got this kind of misanthropic genius who spends his free time escaping reality and competing, you know, in order to show everyone how smart he is. Right? When he's. The only times he wants to engage with other people is when he can, like, beat them in a contest of wits. Otherwise, he likes to kind of focus on his fantasy worlds. One friend described his general attitude as fuck you, world. Now, I think we all knew or were to some degree, kids like that, right? This is going to sound very familiar. Like, as a kid who grew up, like, bullied and nerdy, aspects of this are familiar to me. Sure. Peter also, it's interesting, maintains this attitude while managing to be the best student in his school. Right? He is going to be the valedictorian. He is an exceptional student academically. So he has both this kind of anger at normal kids and the world around him. And also this attitude that's reinforced by the social structures of his world that, like, he's better than everyone else in an important way. Now, his classmates interviewed by Chafkin seem to suggest that Peter and kind of everyone at their school are obsessed with getting like, this is a school where the kids, you know, their parents are high achievers. Everyone is obsessed with getting into good colleges. This was seen as the path to success at the time. And Peter's parents, if they were strict, were probably pushing him hard to get the best grades possible so that he could get into the best school. Right? This is, and this is going to be important later. He grows up being told by all the authority figures in his life what matters most is getting into a good college. Right? That is like the number one priority you have to have as a kid. I don't know, when I went to school, that was the priority that was really rammed home to me by my parents. So I don't have trouble believing that this is the case for Peter. And it's. He's going to get very angry at this later in his life. This is going to be a major motivating factor in his life. The idea that, like, he was forced to value higher education, which he fundamentally thinks is not a valuable thing in the same way that his parents did. And he's really angry about it. He's kind of never forgiven the concept of academia for this. He graduates in 85 as the valedictorian of San Mateo High. During the later years in public school, he had moved on from Tolkien and Asimov to Ayn Rand. And this kind of helps nurse the strain of vigorous anti communist sentiment. This would have been a part of his upbringing anyway. We're talking like Silicon Valley in the 70s, 70s. A lot of defense industry stuff is out there. It is not a radical left hotbed. So he probably didn't need the Ayn Rand to make him into an anti Communist. But this definitely makes him into, like, a libertarian. Anti communist. During One article in 2011, he described his ideology as so strictly libertarian that for a time, he was against all government spending, which he's not now. He's very supportive of the government spending money to research how rich people can live longer. So that's, that's good. It's nice to see that people can grow. Yeah.
- [50:48]
Noah Schachtman
It's an evolution.
- [50:50]
Host 2
Yeah. You know who else has evolved since. Since the last time we talked about them is the sponsors of this podcast. You know, they're moving past their, their. Their mistakes of like 20 minutes or so ago, losing control of that orbital habitat to the Peter Thiel clones. And they're moving on, you know, to, to. To greater pastures. Blowing up that orbital habitat, primarily. So we'll check back.
- [51:19]
Sloan Glass
Whenever a homicide happens, two questions immediately come to mind. Who did this? And why? And sometimes the answer to those questions can be found in the where. Where the crime happened. I'm journalist Sloan Glass, and I host the new podcast American Homicide. Each week, we'll explore some of this country's most infamous and mysterious murders. And you'll learn how the location of the crime became a character in the story on American Homicide. We'll go coast to coast and visit places like the wide open New Mexico desert, the swampy Louisiana bayou, and the frozen Alaska wilderness. And we'll learn how each region of the country holds deadly secrets. So join me, Sloan Glass, on the new true crime podcast, American Homicide. Listen to American homicide on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [52:29]
Ed Zitron
In the quiet town of Avella, Pennsylvania, Jared and Christy, Akron seem to have a all a whirlwind romance, a new home, and twins on the way. What no one knew was that Christy was hiding a secret so shocking it would tear their world apart.
- [52:43]
Host 2
911 response. What's your emergency? My babies. Please. My babies.
- [52:48]
Ed Zitron
One woman, two lives, and the truth more terrifying than anyone could imagine.
- [52:53]
Host 2
They had her as one of the suspects, but they could never prove it.
- [52:56]
Host 1
You're going to go to jail if you don't come with us right now.
- [52:59]
Host 2
Throughout this whole thing, I kept telling.
- [53:01]
Host 1
Myself, nobody's that crazy.
- [53:03]
Host 2
Crazy.
- [53:04]
Ed Zitron
Uncover the chilling mystery that will leave you questioning everything. A story of the lengths we go to protect our darkest secrets.
- [53:12]
Host 2
She went batshit crazy. Shot and killed all her farm animals, slaughtered them in front of the kids, Tried to burn her house down.
- [53:20]
Ed Zitron
Audio represents the unborn on the iHeartRadio Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [53:28]
Host 1
Is your country falling apart? Feeling tired? Depressed? A little bit revolutionary? Consider this. Start your own country.
- [53:36]
Host 2
I planted the flag and just kind of looked out of like, this is mine. I own this.
- [53:40]
Host 1
It's surprisingly easy.
- [53:42]
Host 2
55 gallons of water for 500 pounds of concrete.
- [53:44]
Host 1
Everybody's doing it.
- [53:46]
Noah Schachtman
I am King Ernest Emmanuel.
- [53:48]
Host 1
I am the Queen of Ladonia.
- [53:49]
Ed Zitron
I'm Jackson the first King of Capperburg.
- [53:51]
Noah Schachtman
I am the supreme leader of the.
- [53:52]
Host 2
Grand Republic of Montonia.
- [53:54]
Host 1
Be part of a great colonial tradition.
- [53:56]
Host 2
Well, why can't I trade my own country? My forefathers did that themselves.
- [53:59]
Host 1
What could go wrong?
- [54:01]
Noah Schachtman
No country willingly gives up their territory.
- [54:03]
Host 2
I was making racket with a black powder, you know, with explosive warhead. Oh, my God. What is that? Bullets? Bullet holes? We need help. We need help. We still have the off road portion to go.
- [54:16]
Host 1
Listen to Escape from Zakistan.
- [54:18]
Host 2
And we're losing daylight fast.
- [54:21]
Host 1
That's Escape from zaqistan on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [54:29]
Unknown Speaker
It's been 30 years since the horror began.
- [54:32]
Host 2
Nine. One. One. What's your emergency?
- [54:35]
Unknown Speaker
Someone.
- [54:35]
Host 2
He.
- [54:36]
Unknown Speaker
He said he was gonna kill me. Three decades since our small beach community was taken. Terrorized by a serial killer.
- [54:43]
Host 2
Maybe.
- [54:44]
Noah Schachtman
My dear Courtney, we're not done after all.
- [54:48]
Unknown Speaker
In the 1990s, the tourist town of Domino beach became the hunting ground of a monster. No one was safe. No one could stop it. Police spun their wheels. Politicians spun the truth while fear gripped us tighter with every body that was found. We thought it was over. We thought the murders had ended. But what if we were wrong?
- [55:12]
Host 2
Come back to Domino Beach, Courtney. Come home. I'll be waiting for you.
- [55:19]
Unknown Speaker
Listen to the Murder Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [55:29]
Host 1
Hey there, my little creeps. It's your favorite ghost host, Tereza. And guess what? But hunting is back. Dropping just in time for spooky season. Now, I know you've probably been wandering the mortal plane, wondering when I'd be back to fill your ears with deliciously unsettling stories. Well, wonder no more, because we've got a ghoulishly good lineup ready for you. Let's just say things get a bit extra. We're talking spirits, demons, and the kind of supernatural chaos that'll make your spooky season complete. You know how much I love this time of year. It's the one time I'm actually on trend. So grab your pumpkin spice dust off that Ouija board. Just don't call Me. Unless it's urgent. And tune in for new episodes every week. Remember, the veils are thin, the stories are spooky, and your favorite ghost host is back and badder than ever. Listen to haunting on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [56:33]
Host 2
And we're back. Noah, have you seen Alien Resurrection? Are these Alien Resurrection jokes hitting? I don't know if anyone's seen that movie. I remember.
- [56:41]
Noah Schachtman
I, like, I cannot recall this Alien movie. And I thought it was great. Like, I feel like I saw some spinoff with, like, a Roman name, like, oh, God, Prometheus.
- [56:54]
Host 2
Is that an Prometheus? Yes. No. That's one of the ones that was made by Ridley Scott. Again, though.
- [57:00]
Noah Schachtman
I don't know, man.
- [57:01]
Host 2
This was the. The fourth Alien was the Alien movie that was written by Joss Whedon as kind of a backdoor pilot for Firefly. It's a very strange movie, but it's got Ron Perlman in it.
- [57:13]
Noah Schachtman
I don't know what to say in response to any of these words.
- [57:16]
Host 2
No one knows what to say in response to Alien Resurrection other than it's the fourth movie in the Alien series. Great. One particular. Probably shouldn't have hung so many jokes on the fourth Alien movie. If you're a kid, go watch it.
- [57:35]
Noah Schachtman
I feel like if you're hanging Alien jokes, it's got to end with, you know, game over, man.
- [57:40]
Host 2
Yeah, it's kind of. I am the Hudson in this series. Like, I'm realizing that I've let us. I've gotten us into a. Or we're in this horrible disaster that I'm not going to get, and now I'm just firing my gun blindly at the ceiling trying to escape.
- [57:55]
Host 1
Noah and I both have no idea what you're talking about, but someone in the subreddit.
- [57:58]
Host 2
He just brought up Hudson.
- [58:00]
Host 1
Someone in the subreddit will be really excited that you're just keeping going on this.
- [58:03]
Host 2
Oh, my God.
- [58:04]
Host 1
Someone.
- [58:05]
Host 2
It really is game over, man. Game over.
- [58:08]
Host 1
Game over.
- [58:09]
Host 2
Unbelievable. So one particularly baffling segment from the Chafkin book involves Peter's senior yearbook quote, which he credited to the Hobbit. The greatest adventure is what lies ahead today and tomorrow are yet to be said. Now, you know, that seems like something a nerdy kid would do, and that's a perfectly fine yearbook quote. I would go so far as to say maybe even a little, like, stereotypical. But when it comes up in Chafkin's book. Chafkin, actually, this is one of the areas where I think his analysis of Peter is a little unfair. Here's what Chafkin writes about Peter putting that quote in his yearbook. Years later, he'd say that he memorized the entire passage, which continues, the chances the changes are all yours to make the mold of your life is in your hands to break it would become, in a way, the motto of his life. Though it was still at this point, a confused life. The passage is not, in fact from Tolkien, who wrote the Hobbit, as well as the Lord of the Rings trilogy books Teal obsessed over. It's from a theme song written by Jules Bass, creative genius behind the 1980s cartoon Thundercats for the animated version of the Hobbit, which came out in 1970s. Now, I think maybe because it's not clear to me that Peter was being dishonest or making a mistake if he attributed that quote to the Hobbit. That quote is from the Hobbit. It's from the Hobbit movie. But I don't know if you'd necessarily care to be that specific about this in your fucking yearbook. This isn't an essay you're writing. I think Chafkin wanted to point this out as maybe Thiel not really being a Tolkien fan or something like that. It's unclear to me. I don't think it particularly weird that an 18 year old kid would credit the Hobbit animated movie for a quote as the Hobbit instead of specifying that it was not the book. I think that may be a little bit reaching. But anyway, I guess you could see this as evidence that Peter wasn't a big Tolkien fan and just liked the animated movies. But to be honest, if you are quoting from the fucking Hobbit animated movie of 1977, you're a pretty big Tolkien nerd, right? There's not a w popular movie, although better than the Hobbit movies we would later get, arguably. So, yeah, I don't know.
- [60:24]
Noah Schachtman
This whole thing seems like nerd.
- [60:26]
Host 2
Like, I think it's a little bit of nerd fighting.
- [60:30]
Noah Schachtman
Yeah, you're not actually memorizing the books, you're memorizing.
- [60:33]
Host 2
No, that was from the Hobbit animated movie. How dare you.
- [60:37]
Noah Schachtman
It's not even canon.
- [60:38]
Host 2
And he brings up that the song was written by the Thundercats guy to kind of like make it more gentle, man. The Thundercats was fine. Like, we don't need to be shitting on the Thundercats here because of what Peter thiel does in 2000.
- [60:49]
Noah Schachtman
Incredible. What are you talking about?
- [60:50]
Host 2
Come on, man. Come on, Chafe. Get Look, I like Chafegan. I just disagree with him here.
- [60:58]
Noah Schachtman
Wait, there's a Hobbit movie? I thought there was only a Lord of the Rings movie.
- [61:01]
Host 2
No, there's definitely a Hobbit movie. We are not talking about the Peter Jackson Hobbit movie, Sophie. We are talking about the animated Hobbit movie, which is wonderful.
- [61:12]
Host 1
You know what? I did watch that one. I did watch that one.
- [61:14]
Host 2
Oh, yeah, no, I'm going to. I'm going to recommend, like, half a hit of acid and just sink down into your couch and let it happen to you.
- [61:22]
Noah Schachtman
Robert, from what I know of you, you would recommend a half a hit of acid in literally anything.
- [61:26]
Host 2
You know, it keeps my hands steady when I'm driving, especially if I've got a trailer. You know, I don't trust anyone who toes on less than half a hit of acid. That's my advice. Kids out there. Yeah. Going shooting. Oh, man, you don't even need tracers. The acid provides. So, anyway, whatever. We don't need to continue down this Peter Thiel.
- [61:53]
Noah Schachtman
I also just think, like, reading into somebody's yearbook quote over reading it is, like, a little much.
- [62:00]
Host 2
Yeah, maybe Peter did specify the animated version, and then the yearbook editor was like, no, we'll just say the Hobbit. It's fine.
- [62:07]
Noah Schachtman
Anyway, puts that much thought into your yearbook quote.
- [62:10]
Host 2
Yeah, it's a yearbook. Come on. So a much better story of Peter actually being a weirdo, which Chafkin does also share, comes from one of his few female friends who appear apparently shared with Peter at some point, that she'd been the result of an unplanned pregnancy. Right. That her parents had had her without meaning to. Peter wrote in her yearbook quote, I could never even hypothetically have aborted you. Love Peter Thiel. That is an odd thing to write about your friend based on them sharing this with you. That is an odd lied. Now, I will say that's not a cold statement. It's just weird. Right? Like, that is, in a way, kind of a warm statement. Right. So, I don't know. It doesn't entirely comport with, like, Peter can't connect with people, but it definitely comports with, like, nobody. Peter doesn't quite talk like anyone else. Right. Nobody else would say this to a friend. Yeah.
- [63:09]
Noah Schachtman
Unless he wrote in everybody else's yearbook, like, I would abort you.
- [63:13]
Host 2
I would have aborted you. That's everyone else's. Peter Thiel's signature, big red X. Yeah. Now, Peter was accepted by Stanford and started his freshman year at the beginning of Reagan's second term. Now, Stanford at this period was a major source of thinkers and doers among the conservative movement. The Hoover Institution, which is a right wing think tank on campus, gave the world Martin Anderson, who helped create Reaganomics, right? He's like the author of Reaganomics as a comic concept. Many institute fellows were members of the Reagan administration. Peter definitely seems to have seen this as maybe the path he wanted for himself. And even though what's interesting to me is because he has this sort of emotional need to be seen as a contrarian, as the guy going against the grain, he will always frame higher education, his time at Stanford, as this den of liberals and leftist frivolity, where it's like, this is the school that gave us the Reagan administration, right? Like fucking Stanford is not a hotbed of leftists. You know, there's like liberals and leftists on campus and leftist clubs. But like, one of the most influential conservative think tanks in the country is based out of Stanford. Right. I think the main reason why Peter has to kind of characterize college this way is that he just doesn't like college, right? He doesn't like Stanford. And he primarily seems to dislike Stanford not because of a political thing, but because all of the kids there acted like kids, right? They're all teenagers. They're not quite grown up, which is what college students are. And this is annoying to Peter. One of his chief bugbears was that there was a campus hide and seek game which made him very angry. Right? The fact that other people are like, well, he's trying to learn, playing hide and seek. Peter doesn't like this. He avoids most parties. He does not date. Now he's gay, right? And that's certainly not nearly as acceptable a thing, even in a place like Stanford in this period of time. So it's not exactly weird. And that may play into kind of part of why he's so frustrated seeing all of his peers kind of date and socialize when that is not a thing that's safe for him. I think maybe that does play into it to some degree. Whenever he could, rather than hang out with anyone he met on campus, he would go back home to hang out with his old friends from high school. Right? Now, one of his Stanford peers suggests that he viewed other kids at the school as deeply unserious. I think there's also an element of discomfort, insecurity in meeting and trying to connect with new people. Whatever the case, Peter is the weird kid on campus. Every morning he would leave his dorm room and walk to the water fountain to Take a huge number of vitamins one a time. He seems to do this in a way that's like deliberately. Exhibitionist classmate Megan Maxwell alleges that he kind of does this to confront other kids, right? To set himself apart. Everyone else is partying and drinking and doing drugs. And every morning, Peter gets out there and slowly takes all of his supplements so everyone can see him. Right. Quote, it was like a ritual. She told Chafkin he was a strange, strange boy. I don't think she's lying there.
- [66:29]
Noah Schachtman
Yeah.
- [66:31]
Host 2
He studied philosophy at Stanford, and this is as an undergrad, and was particularly drawn to the work of Rene Girard, a professor and theorist of social sciences. Girard was particularly focused on the psychology of desire, or why people want things and how they decide they want things. From a 2021 article in the New Yorker by Anna Wiener. Thiel was particularly taken with Gerard's concept of mimetic desire. Man is the creature who does not know what to desire, and he turns others in order to make up his mind. Gerard wrote, we desire what others desire because we imitate their desires. Memetic desire involves a surrender of agency. It means allowing others to dictate one's wants, and, the theory goes, can foster envy, rivalry, infighting, and resentment. It also, Gerard wrote, leads to acts of violent scapegoating which serve to preclude further mass conflicts by unifying persecutors against a group or individual. He thinks this is how people work, right? That people's desires are largely based on this kind of herd mentality. We're imitating other people's desires that we see. We surrender our agency to let other people dictate wants for us. And this is why scapegoating is natural and actually is a necessary thing in order to avoid further mass violence. If you can scapegoat individuals for problems, you can avoid more widespread violence. I think one could kind of extrapolate this into Peter as a member of the wealthy ruling class, seeing the scapegoating that conservatives do of migrants or trans people as a way to avoid a potential mass violence against his class like the wealthy. But maybe I'm reading a little bit too much into it there.
- [68:20]
Host 1
He's the scapegoat author Gall, also the violence and the sacred, sacred guy, Gerard. That actually makes so much sense.
- [68:29]
Host 2
It makes a lot of sense, the fact that this gets brought. I mean, Teo brings up Gerard a lot. There's a lot of writing Thiel has done where he quotes Gerard talking about memetic desire. So it is not chafkin and others, because I'm quoting directly from Anna's article here. They're not going out on a limb connecting a lot of what he does to Chafkin. This is a foundational part of his thinking.
- [68:48]
Host 1
He's the guy who wrote a book about sacrifice ritual, and he's.
- [68:53]
Host 2
Yeah, he's. See? And I. I'm on board with that. I think we should do more human sacrifice. I'm sure you do. I think we should. We need to be building more pyramids. We don't build enough. We built that one in. Where is it? Nashville. Right. We should have a pyramid in every city and we should sacrifice people on them. That's all I'm saying.
- [69:15]
Noah Schachtman
No, you're off, guy.
- [69:16]
Host 2
You're a ziggurat, guy. You've been gotten by big ziggurat, huh? The Brickmakers have you in their thrall.
- [69:23]
Noah Schachtman
I have, yeah.
- [69:24]
Host 2
There's more material in a ziggurat, that's all. That's why they want it.
- [69:27]
Noah Schachtman
They're easy to walk up to.
- [69:29]
Host 2
They're easy to walk up.
- [69:31]
Noah Schachtman
Yeah. And then you can throw your human sacrifice off the top once you do.
- [69:35]
Host 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I do like a ziggurat. A solid ziggurat. A good old fashioned step pyramid. Hell, yeah.
- [69:42]
Noah Schachtman
Yeah.
- [69:43]
Host 2
Now the concept of mimetic desire and the potential use of violent scapegoating would remain focuses of Peter's thinking on human nature, business and politics up to the present day. Two years into his time on campus, he started a monthly magazine, the Stanford Review, with one of his high school friends who went to college with him. The Stanford Review was a right wing rag. It featured articles accusing professors of being closet Marxists, columns complaining about non white authors in a Western culture class, and some very weird takes on the AIDS epidemic. Here's an excerpt from a column in New York magazine by Chafkin. The first issue featured a satirical column, Confessions of a Sexual Deviant, about a young straight man who'd chosen to be celibate. According to the Review, it was almost impossible to visit a men's restroom without witnessing a gay sex act, or to cross the quad without having fistfuls of free condoms pressed into your hand. In 1987, presenting homosexuality as an addiction, a columnist wrote that unnatural gay men had yielded to temptations so many times that the fires of lust burn within them, making it indeed difficult for them to control themselves. During Thiel's last year on campus, his close friend and Review collaborator Keith Raboy stood outside the home of a Stanford Residential fellow, and shouted at the top of his lungs, f word. You are going to die of aids. You are going to get what's coming to you. Two days later, the Review published the rape issue with an impassioned defense of a student who'd pleaded no contest to statutory rape. So he's the guy that he's going to be the rest of his life by 87. We can save that. There's a lot. And because Peter doesn't like to talk about. And we'll talk about the Gawker stuff later, I actually think he's less in the wrong on that than he tends to be painted as. Which is not to say that he's in the right there, but he doesn't like talking about his sexual sexuality. There's a decent little chunk of. Even up to this day, and this is not exactly Peter's kind of thing, but I've interviewed a couple of gay conservatives who are celibate. They're Catholic, they accept that they're homosexual. They're open about that, but they think it's immoral to do anything about it because they're also extremely Catholic. And I see shades of that, at least in Peter's thinking here. Like the fact that he is putting out these articles about celibacy and about the unnatural and evil lusts of the gay community. And AIDS very much feels in line with that to me here. But we just don't get a ton of Peter himself talking about. But you can see he wouldn't be putting out these articles about, like, how AIDS is the fault, like, by this guy yelling about how, like, AIDS is your fault. Right. If you're gay. If he didn't. If there wasn't an element of that in his thinking. Right.
- [72:41]
Noah Schachtman
Yeah. This young man is extremely broken and confused. Yeah.
- [72:46]
Host 2
I mean, this is the. Yeah. The fact that you're defending a guy who pled no contest to statutory rape. The anger about condoms over a guy who pled no contest to statutory rape. I don't know.
- [73:01]
Noah Schachtman
No, look, I mean, you don't want to joke someone too much by their, you know, corny campus newspaper if they.
- [73:07]
Host 2
Move on from it. Yeah, yeah.
- [73:08]
Noah Schachtman
I mean, I say this as someone who started a corny campus newspaper.
- [73:11]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [73:11]
Noah Schachtman
Like. But I mean, that's really. It's really beyond the pale. And it does seem to connect to who this dude is later, which is like, this weird. Like, there's so much like. Like, hate, both internal and extraordinary external happening.
- [73:31]
Host 2
You really get why he becomes the guy he becomes, because so much of Peter's modern politics is the right wing hating the normies. Like fuck the normies kind of politics. And a big part of just how much anger there is at Marxists on campus. They're handing out columns on the quad. It's just like whatever he sees the people around him are fine with makes him angry. You know, there is a degree of that in being this kind of dude in Stanford in this period of time. Now the late 1980s are a period in which public rage over the injustices of apartheid had started to reach a fever pitch. Too. Right. This is one of the most kind of salient public issues at the time. Is like the entire Western international community is kind of lining up against the apartheid regime. There were regular protests on campus and calls to divest the school from South Africa and financial interests. According to one source, Peter was not supportive of this. He was very angry that all of the kids on campus are anti South Africa. And I want to read now this is a very interesting chapter of his life from a medium post by one of his classmates at Stanford, Julia Lithcott Hames. She wrote this about an encounter in 1986. And this is going to be very relevant. Julie is a black woman. We ran in different circles. His fiercely libertarian views were often a topic of conversation among those of us living in Branner Hall. One day I heard a rumor that Peter defended apartheid, which was then still the law of the land in South Africa, which I found morally repugnant. To know that a fellow student, a dorm mate for that matter, might defend such a brutally oppressive race based caste system gave me the willies. But I wanted to give Peter the benefit of the doubt. So I mustered the courage to go to his room and ask him about it. He said with no facial affect that apartheid was a sound economic system working efficiently and moral issues were irrelevant. He made no effort to even acknowledge the pain the concept of apartheid could possibly raise for me, a black woman. So that's. And it's very in line with the kind of like, well, it works economically. The system is economically successful and that's all that matters. The moral. The moral issues are irrelevant. Right? Just completely that kind of guy.
- [75:53]
Noah Schachtman
I mean, how much of this is just like, that's my dad.
- [75:56]
Host 2
Yeah. Well, I mean, how much of it is, that's my dad. And just like this reflexive contrarian thing. All of these kids hate South Africa. I've been there. I know it's actually a good system because it works economic, you know, worked for my dad. Yeah, yeah, great stuff. When Julie posted this in 2016, it went sort of viral and Peter issued a response through a spokesperson. Peter has no recollection of a stranger demanding his views on apartheid. He has never supported it, but he can easily see how a conversation might be misremembered 30 years later. And that's interesting. Like I don't recall talking to this stranger, but you can easily see how someone could misremember the conversation that I'm not sure happened.
- [76:36]
Noah Schachtman
If I did it.
- [76:37]
Host 2
If I did it. Yeah.
- [76:39]
Noah Schachtman
Apartheid edition.
- [76:40]
Host 2
Now obviously I don't know that Julie's recollection of events from 30 years ago is perfectly accurate. No one's are ever right. But there is some outside corroboration for aspects of Julie's story. And I'm going to quote from an article in NPR here, lift Haims. His account of Thiel's opinion about apartheid was backed up by Megan Maxwell, a freelance editor who also attended Stanford with Thiel. Maxwell, who was also an African American, told NPR that in a separate incident, Thiel also told her that morality and governments shouldn't be connected and that you shouldn't judge a government based on whether it fits your, your view of morality. I don't know, man. Shouldn't you? Isn't that part of how you should judge a government, whether or not you think it's moral?
- [77:25]
Noah Schachtman
So wait, he's doing anti morality or amorality on the law.
- [77:31]
Host 2
That should matter. It should just matter if it's economically efficient. Right.
- [77:35]
Noah Schachtman
But then gays are bad on the other hand.
- [77:39]
Host 2
Yeah. At least he's publishing other people who are writing about the immorality of homosexuality, sexual life. Right? Yeah, I think that that would be the interesting, interesting Peter. Part of what's going on here is like Peter is an outspoken Christian and he is up to the present day and that means some very odd things for a guy who is also like gay and a libertarian that's going to.
- [78:08]
Noah Schachtman
Like spoken Christian who doesn't believe that we should judge things by their morality.
- [78:16]
Host 2
That's what he says here because he definitely seems to in other instances believe that we should judge things based on whether or not they're his definition of moral. You know, part of. And this is not just Peter, this is everyone. He's not consistent. Nobody is right like this. We found a point of inconsistency here. Sure. Now Peter's present political situation, I will say when we're talking about his classmates talking about 30 years ago, you should always read any quote about someone like this with the perspective of like the fact that his modern day political Stances might be deep, like post facto coloring people's recollections of him right as a kid, because nobody's memories are perfect. So I did go looking for other accounts of the man at Stanford, and I found a few from former classmates of his on Quora. In one post, Chris Gray recalled, he was very interested in constitutional law and wanted to clerk at the Supreme Court. He was serious about religion. He went to the gym frequently to work out. Peter was always what I would describe as thoughtful and civil in his dealings with people, which is unusual in my experience. He had a stubborn side and did not typically change his mind about things. And, you know, maybe he was more friendly to this guy because this guy was more simpatico to his beliefs. But a lot of that seems like pretty consistent with other stories you get about Peter. Chris also recalled that Peter was very interested in another thinker, Leo Strauss. I recall the most interesting thing Peter said was derived from his understanding of Strauss, which was that there are not really any facts, just values. Another classmate, Lance Ishimoto, recalls Peter as an outspoken conservative who was a part of the Federalist Society and hung out with Greg Kennedy, Justice Kennedy, Kennedy's son. He went on to note his entrepreneurial nature was also apparent from the way he and a friend decided to make their own version of Stanford Law sweatshirts and sell them at a price, $40 that was cheaper than the official ones at the bookstore. $75. Yeah. So there you go. Peter got his BA in 1989 and then got his law degree from Stanford Law. Now that's quite a lot of schooling for a guy that as an adult would declare his own personal war on the higher education system. From Khachin and others, it certainly sounds as if some of this was related to his annoyance with liberal classmates. But I wonder if a larger reason wasn't the disillusionment he felt later because of his law career, which, as a spoiler, doesn't work out the way he'd hoped. As Chris recalled, Peter was obsessed in this period as he's getting out of college, as he's finishing his law degree. The thing that he wants for his life is not to be an entrepreneur or a founder. It is to clerk for the Supreme Court. And one kind of assumes he's maybe hoping to eventually get on the Supreme Court. George Packer, writing for the New Yorker, states, quote, after graduating from law school and clerking for a federal judge, he was turned down for a Supreme Court clerkship by Justices Antonin Scalia and Anthony Kennedy. And if we're looking for the inciting incident of Peter's turn towards evil for his desire to destroy higher education. What makes him choose the path of becoming a corporate founder, a venture capitalist? This is why his first choice is he wants to be working in and around and with the Supreme Court, and he gets shot down. This guy who has always been the best at everything isn't good enough for Scalia or Kennedy. And that's what sets him on the path that he's going to go down later, at least according to a lot of people who knew him at this point in time.
- [81:55]
Noah Schachtman
Wow. Like Scalia, the font of so much not good, does one good thing and it backfires utterly and completely and fucks us all.
- [82:09]
Host 2
Yeah. And I wonder if it's just that they could see the. Because, like, even if you're Scalia, right, you don't really want to work every day with a reflexive contrarian. Right? Like, they're not. That's not a guy who's always. Whose whole thing is always, I have to be doing a different thing than everyone else. Like, I have to be smarter than everyone else. Everyone else who has to be wrong, and I have to be right. You don't want to work with that guy. Like, that guy sucks.
- [82:35]
Noah Schachtman
Or maybe just his work wasn't good enough, you know?
- [82:37]
Host 2
Yeah, or maybe his law shit wasn't good enough. Right. Like, I don't know. I'm not a lawyer. I don't have the ability to judge. Peter Thiel's, like, right on law. But whatever the case, because he's the valedictorian of his high school, he does very well at Stanford, he's friends with Kennedy's kid, he's doing everything he should be doing to make this work, and it just doesn't work for him. Right. And that does seem to be, like, the thing that fucks him up Anyway. Noah, how are you feeling about Peter so far?
- [83:10]
Noah Schachtman
I feel like right now we're at kind of like, only somewhat harmful, toxic nerd stage. And if the story ended there, it'd be like, okay, fine, you know, go ahead, buddy. Now you get to grow up and live your whole life.
- [83:28]
Host 2
I feel like you'd be a person. Yeah.
- [83:30]
Noah Schachtman
Yeah. Like, I feel like there's still, like, you know, the fate is not set.
- [83:35]
Host 2
At this point, right? Yeah, I would say the fate is not set. There's a lot of ways that this guy could go after this, but I also feel like you can tell a guy who runs that kind of newspaper and whose goal is to work for Scalia. Or Kennedy probably isn't going to wind up being like a guy you'd want to have dinner with, you know?
- [83:58]
Noah Schachtman
No, but this isn't behind the guys you don't want to have dinner with.
- [84:04]
Host 2
No, no, no. We're not guaranteed he's going to become a bastard yet. So we'll be hitting that increasingly by part two. And I'm excited for you to see where Peter goes after this. Noah, where are you going to go after this?
- [84:20]
Noah Schachtman
I feel like I'm going to have, like, several shots of whiskey after this. I feel like I need it.
- [84:27]
Host 2
Yeah, it's 1pm so that's the right time for a nice, nice stiff drink.
- [84:33]
Noah Schachtman
It's 4:00 over here, man.
- [84:36]
Host 2
Yeah, yeah, it's 4:00 somewhere. That's why I can start drinking. All right, well, I'm gonna go listen to some Jimmy Buffett. You go also go listen to some Jimmy Buffett and then come back on Thursday for part two.
- [84:48]
Noah Schachtman
We're gonna need six drinks of extremely Buffett.
- [84:55]
Host 1
Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzone media.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the Bastards is Now available on YouTube. New episodes every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to our channel YouTube.com behind the Bastards.
- [85:20]
Sloan Glass
Sometimes where a crime took place leads you to answer why the crime happened in the first place. Hi, I'm Sloan Glass, host of the new true crime podcast American Homicide. In this series, we'll examine some of the country's most infamous and mysterious murders and learn how the location of the crime becomes a character in the story. Listen to American homicide on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [85:55]
Ed Zitron
From. Audio up, the creators of Stephen King's Strawberry Spring Comes the Unborn. A shocking true story.
- [86:02]
Host 2
My babies. Please. My babies.
- [86:06]
Ed Zitron
One woman, two lives and a secret she would kill to protect.
- [86:09]
Host 2
She went crazy, shot and killed all her farm animals, slaughtered them in front of the kids, tried to burn their house down.
- [86:18]
Ed Zitron
Listen to the unborn on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [86:26]
Unknown Speaker
It's been 30 years since the horror began.
- [86:29]
Sloan Glass
Nine, one, one.
- [86:29]
Host 1
What's your emergency?
- [86:30]
Host 2
He said he was getting Kill me.
- [86:32]
Unknown Speaker
In the 1990s, the tourist town of Domino beach became the hunting ground of a monster. We thought the murders had ended. But what if we were wrong?
- [86:43]
Noah Schachtman
Come back to Domino Beach.
- [86:44]
Host 2
I'll be waiting for you listen to.
- [86:48]
Unknown Speaker
The Murder Years Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [86:55]
Host 2
Muhammad ali George Foreman 1974 George Foreman was champion of the world. Ali was smart and he was handsome.
- [87:04]
Noah Schachtman
The story behind the Rumble in the Jungle is like a Hollywood movie, but.
- [87:07]
Host 2
That is only half the story. There's also James Brown, Bill Withers, B.B.
- [87:11]
Host 1
King, Miriam Makeba, all the biggest black.
- [87:14]
Host 2
Artists on the planet together in Africa. It was a big deal. Listen to Rumble, Ali Foreman and the soul of 74 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.
- [87:27]
Ed Zitron
Hi, I'm Ed Zittron, host of the.
- [87:29]
Host 2
Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off.
- [87:31]
Ed Zitron
Our second season digging into tech elite and how they've turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI.
- [87:39]
Host 2
To the destruction of Google Search, Better.
- [87:42]
Ed Zitron
Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech.
- [87:46]
Host 2
Brought to you by an industry veteran.
- [87:48]
Ed Zitron
With nothing to lose. Listen to Better offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts.
- [87:53]
Host 2
Wherever else you get your podcasts from.