Part One: Lord Haw-Haw: Hitler's Favorite Anglo Propagandist

Summary

Behind the Bastards

Episode Summary: Part One – Lord Haw-Haw: Hitler's Favorite Anglo Propagandist

Date: December 16, 2025

Host: Robert Evans with guest host Padraig O’Rourke

---

Main Theme / Purpose

In this episode, guest host Padraig O’Rourke takes the reins from Robert Evans to deliver an in-depth, darkly humorous look at the early life of William Joyce—better known as “Lord Haw-Haw,” the notorious Anglo-Irish fascist who became a key Nazi propagandist during WWII. The show delves far beyond Joyce’s radio infamy, unearthing his bizarre, tumultuous upbringing, early betrayals, obsessions with Britishness, and the formative traumas and ideologies that laid the groundwork for his later treacherous career.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Who Was William Joyce? (03:02–04:06)

• Padraig explains the original plan to cover Prince Andrew and why that's not happening ("…we thought it would be safer if we covered a dead bastard instead…").
• Introduction to William Joyce, aka Lord Haw-Haw—the Nazi radio mouthpiece infamous across the Allied world.
• Joyce’s radio role compared to “Tokyo Rose” and other Axis propagandists.

2. Joyce’s Dubious Origins and Upbringing (06:10–11:32)

• Birthplace and birthdate uncertain (c. 1903–1906, America or Ireland).
• Father Michael Joyce: wealthy Irish Catholic emigrant; mother, Queenie, English Protestant. Parents' marriage mired by bigotry and possible scandal.
• Notable quote: “So Michael and Gertrude's engagement was so controversial that her parents refused to attend their 1905 New York wedding. Instead… sent her brother Gilbert, a lawyer, to the ceremony to, quote, see that the thing was done right.” – Padraig (08:18)
• The family’s business in Mayo failed after Michael caused a regular's death by negligence.
• They move to Galway, a hub of Irish culture—ironically, young William despises everything about Irishness and craves British identity.

3. Early Personality and Mother’s Influence (11:32–13:18)

• Spoiled by his mother, who imbued him with grandiose ideas (“You are the sugar in my tea. Without you, there is no British Empire, and you will be a great man someday.”).
• Robert reviews a childhood photo: “He looks like a little shit… You're just a kid. What the fuck are you looking at me for?” (12:44–13:11)
• Precocious, clever, talented, but a lonely and isolated child.

4. Cultural Indoctrination, Catholic Complicity, and Trauma (13:44–18:09)

• Catholic Church in Ireland aided British imperialism—Robert and Padraig discuss the state's coercive assimilation efforts and systemic abuse at schools.
• Children taught to recite a loyalty poem to Britain; speaking Gaelic violently punished.
• Notable quote: “Young William Joyce just fucking loves all the British imperialism that he is getting in school…” – Padraig (16:51)
• Catalyst: a priest tells Joyce his Protestant mother is hellbound, turning him against Catholic authority and toward political radicalism.

5. Joyce’s Descent into Paranoia and Conspiracy (18:09–21:06)

• Amid the Easter Rising and the Russian Revolution, teen Joyce embraces wild anti-Semitic, anti-communist conspiracy theories.
• “He would give impromptu speeches in the playground, warning us about the growing dangers of Bolshevism.” – Padraig quoting Owen Keenan (20:35)
• Illustration of Joyce’s profound outsider status, his alienation fueling reactionary zealotry.

6. The Irish War of Independence: Joyce Sides with the Oppressors (24:39–31:55)

• Joyce witnesses a British killing and volunteers to assist the occupiers at 15—running errands, acting as informant, identifying “enemy” homes.
• Despised as an overzealous, embarrassing mascot by some British police.
• Notable quote: “He was one of our greatest embarrassments. His trouble was fanatical patriotism to England and a burning wish to fight the rebels.” – RIC constable recollection (29:21)
• Even the notorious Black and Tans and the more brutal “Auxies” found Joyce a nuisance.

7. Association with War Crimes and Ultra-Violence (31:55–36:00)

• The “Auxies” described as “bastards to a man” – Tom Barry (31:55).
• Padraig recounts atrocities committed by D Company in Galway: torture, mutilation, murder—including of women, priests, and disabled people, with Joyce eager to help.
• While rumors suggest Joyce lured victims, no direct evidence is found.

8. Spotlight on Joyce as Teenage Enemy Agent (36:00–40:16)

• Joyce is finally revealed as a regular British-paid army courier and becomes a target for IRA assassination.
• His arrogance peaks, taunting IRA leaders in public (“…spat at me…” – Michael Staines, 37:53).
• Only ceasefire negotiations save his life—his handler, Captain Keating, arranges for Joyce to flee to England in the British Army.

9. Political Drift, Anti-Semitism, and the First Fascist Steps (43:21–55:48)

• Booted from the Army, Joyce studies at Birkbeck College, but finds mainstream conservatives insufficiently extreme.
• Fails at a Foreign Office job: “some thieving Jew had stolen his research” (44:33).
• Joins early British Fascisti (1923), an organization obsessed with anti-Communism, anti-Semitism, and monarchy worship, led intriguingly by ex-suffragette Rotha Linton Ormond.
• Rises to “Commander of I Squad.”

10. The Scar—Birth of the Villain’s Public Persona (48:50–51:43)

• Joyce infamously slashed across the face at a political event—he blames a “Jewish Communist,” but it’s likely an Irish female republican.
• Robert: “That’s the scar they all want to have… the dueling scar.” (49:11)
• This wound becomes his “bond villain” brand.

11. Misogyny, Abuse, and More Betrayals (51:48–55:48)

• Marries Hazel Barr, impregnates her, but cheats with a 16-year-old student.
• The British Fascisti collapses amid scandal and lost funding, leaving Joyce adrift until his next ideological messiah emerges.

12. Transition to Future Infamy (55:48–56:42)

• Both hosts note how Joyce wasn’t an accidental monster, but enthusiastic, “hard-working” villainy incarnate—setting up for his leap into Nazi propaganda and his Lord Haw-Haw persona.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the British-Irish marriage controversy:
  “Instead, Queenie’s parents sent her brother Gilbert, a lawyer, to the ceremony to, quote, see that the thing was done right.” – Padraig O'Rourke (08:18)

• Robert’s photo reaction:
  “He looks like a little shit…you’re not better than me, you little piece of shit.” (12:44–13:11)

• On anti-Irish racism:
  “James Froude, professor of history at Oxford, declared that the Irish Were, quote, more like squalid apes than human beings.” – Padraig O’Rourke (07:39)

• Padraig on the Catholic Church’s complicity:
  “…Catholic Church in Ireland in the early 1900s was 100% supportive of British rule…allowed priests political power and social status required to ensure a nationwide conveyor belt of children who they could rape and abuse without legal consequence.” (14:24)

• Juvenile Joyce’s playground politics:
  “He would give impromptu speeches in the playground, warning us about the growing dangers of Bolshevism.” (20:35)

• RIC constable on Joyce:
  “He was one of our greatest embarrassments. His trouble was fanatical patriotism to England and a burning wish to fight the rebels.” (29:21)

• On auxiliary brutality:
  “[The Auxies] were bastards to a man.” – Tom Barry, as quoted by Padraig (31:55)

• Joyce’s arrogance:
  “William Joyce was quite a young fellow… I saw him with some members of the RIC Auxiliary Division. And as I went by, he passed some jeering remarks and actually spat at me.” – Michael Staines (37:53)

• Robert on hard work:
  “He put in the hours to be a piece of shit. You know, this is—he didn’t just start late in his career. I’m a believer in honoring hard work.” (56:11)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro / Format Explanation: 00:05–01:56
• Joyce’s Birth, Parents & Early Galway Years: 06:10–13:18
• Cultural Indoctrination and Imperial Schooling: 13:44–18:09
• First Political Radicalization: 18:09–21:06
• Teen Informant during Irish War of Independence: 24:39–31:55
• Association with Black and Tans/Auxies Atrocities: 31:55–36:00
• On the Run / Saved by British Intelligence: 36:00–40:16
• Start of British Fascists & Political Evolution: 43:21–48:50
• Scar Incident & Mythologizing: 48:50–51:43
• Marriage, Infidelity, Fascist Collapse: 51:48–55:48
• Closing, Next Episode Tease: 55:48–56:42

---

Tone & Style

• The episode is humor-laced, irreverent, and unflinching—even when recounting brutality. Both hosts wield gallows humor and deliver expletive-laden asides, while maintaining a historically rigorous approach.
• Padraig’s vivid storytelling is paired with Robert’s wisecracks and incredulity.

---

Final Thoughts

This first installment lays a thorough foundation for understanding Lord Haw-Haw’s origins, establishing that William Joyce’s commitment to betrayal, cruelty, and fanaticism was neither accidental nor passive. Through stories of failed pub ownership, abusive education, petty schoolyard radicalism, war crimes, and fascist cosplay, the episode makes clear that British fascism had deep, bizarre, and ugly roots. The stage is set for part two—where Joyce’s story merges with the rise of European fascism and Nazi Germany.

---

Further Reading

• Padraig O’Rourke’s book: Burn Them Out: A History of Fascism and the Far Right in Ireland (Bloomsbury, Head of Zeus). (57:11)
• For listeners interested in more about the 1916 Rising, the podcast Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff with Margaret Killjoy is recommended. (19:18)

---

Listen to Part Two to hear about Joyce’s full metamorphosis into Hitler’s voice on the airwaves.

Transcript

[Ad Voice]

Call Zone Media.

[Robert]

All right, everybody, welcome back to behind the Bastards, a podcast where we tell you everything you don't know about the very worst people in all of history. And, folks, on a normal week, basically every other week of the year, I read a story about a terrible person that I have researched and written and spent a lot of time on to one of our guests, who is generally a comedian or an academic or somebody who we thought would be fun to horrify. For roughly two to three hours this week, we're doing a little bit of a different thing. For one thing, my producer Sophie is not here, as she is currently engaged in moving, and that's a whole nightmarish hell. And the other thing that's different, the biggest thing that's different is that this is gonna be a reverse behind the Bastards, where a guest is going to read me a story that they have written based on research they've done from a piece of shit in history. And I'd like to welcome a guest. Well, the guest host to this episode, someone that you will have seen on It Could Happen here if you're a regular listener of that podcast. Padraig o', Rourke, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for coming on and for doing the hard work of making an episode for me this week.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

No problem. Thanks for having me. And Jesus. Yeah, it took, like, just finding the time to write these things. Like, I think we discussed this idea first in, like, February, March, but only just got it finished.

[Robert]

Yeah, we were connected through our mutual friend Jake Hanrahan. And you came on the show to talk about the Irish. Far right on It Could Happen Here, which was a great episode. And, yeah, you pitched around that same time this. And it's obviously like, it's my whole job, so I find the time to do it every week. I have to. When it's like a side thing you're doing, it takes a long time to write 10,000 words about a shitty person.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

I still have to turn up to work for my government paymasters, but, yep, there you go.

[Robert]

Yeah. Well, who are we learning about this week?

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Well, Robert, as you know, the original plan for this episode was to cover Andrew Windsor, or as he's now known, the alleged rapist formerly known as Prince.

[Robert]

Yes.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

But seeing as how women who annoy the British monarchy occasionally die in suspicious traffic accidents, we would have been putting Sophie's life in danger. And that is why she has gone into hiding.

[Robert]

That's right. Yes. To protect her from the British royal family.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

And as we all know, there's nothing The British royal family and its armed forces love doing more than murdering Irishmen. So my next was on the line too. And I thought, I thought it would be safer if we covered a dead bastard instead of Andrew Saxon Coburg.

[Robert]

But we're no longer the Prince.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

You'll get around to Prince Andrew someday. Anyway, Robert.

[Robert]

Yeah, he is on the list, especially with all this juicy new Epstein stuff that's leaked.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Oh, I totally believe him. He's innocent of everything. So, Robert, I know you've heard of this guy because you mentioned him before on a previous podcast, but I was wondering, how much do you know or can you recall about William Joyce?

[Robert]

Yeah, you're talking about Lord Haha, right? That's his. The name he's probably better, certainly better known to Americans by. I read about him for the first time in like One of the First World War II history books I read when I was in May. I couldn't have been much further than fifth or sixth grade. And it was, it was, there was a chapter that talked about him and it talked about there was kind of a woman in Japan who was sort of the Japanese equivalent of these, like, radio, like pro fascist radio stars who would tell allied soldiers, basically, you're all going to get killed over here. You know, disobey your orders, whatnot. Like it's hopeless to try to fight us, that sort of thing. So that's, that's kind of my, It's a very surface level knowledge of the guy. I'm aware that he was like the British equivalent of. And I'm spacing on the name of the, I think of the woman based in Tokyo who was doing the same thing over in the Pacific Theater. But yeah, that's what I know about him.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

That's the guy. Well, this guy has fascinating backstory, terrible personal life, and I think he's grade A bastard material.

[Ad Voice]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.

[Robert]

Season three of Sniffy's Cruising Confessions is here. Hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson Rosso are going deeper than ever with bold new conversations, fresh guests and unfiltered takes on queer sex and cruising. This season they're also looking out for the community covering smart cruising in a chaotic world, including information on prep. And yes, their call in segment is getting even hotter and they'll react to your wildest Cruising Confessions on air. No pressure. Tune in to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Healthy Sexual from Gilead Sciences, with new episodes every Thursday on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Managing multiple accounts and logins for your.

[Ad Voice 2]

Marketing needs is like managing multiple announcers for one ad.

[Ad Voice]

Confusing, but with mailchimp's new SMS features, you can reach all your customers in over 10 countries, all from one account, giving you more time, driving more conversions and improving campaign performance. One platform, many audiences, endless possibilities. That's how you MailChimp your marketing with SMS. Tap the banner to learn more New school year, new routines, and somehow your calendar is already full. When life gets hectic, caulipower's got your back. We make the food you crave made better for you. Like thin and crispy cauliflower crust pizzas, all natural chicken tenders and nostalgic pizza snacks ready in minutes in something the whole family can agree on. Cauli Power is available in freezer aisles nationwide. Visit eatcaulypower.com to find a store near you Looking for a fantasy that will.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Keep you up all night?

[Ad Voice]

From Blood and Ash isn't just a story, it's the beginning of an obsession. From Blood and Ash launches you into.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

A world where forbidden desire collides with.

[Ad Voice]

Deadly secrets and every choice could ignite a war. Expect heart pounding romance, fierce battles, and a heroine who refuses to be caged. If you crave danger, passion and twists you'll never see coming, start the journey today. Grab from Blood in Ash, available in print, ebook and audiobook and enter a.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Series you'll never want to leave. So look, we'll jump into it. William Joyce was born. Well Roberts, we're off to a bad start here because no one knows for certain when or where this I love those ones. Yeah, we do know who his parents were though. William Joyce was the eldest son of Michael Joyce from Mayo in the west of Ireland and an English woman named Gertrude Brook, but who was better known as Queenie. Michael Joyce, unlike most Irish immigrants to the USA in the late 1800s, was not a starving peasant. He came from a wealthy farming family and he had gone to America to seek his fortune rather than evade starvation. In the 1880s he established a successful construction company in Brooklyn and he had enough money to make frequent trips back home to Ireland.

[Robert]

Oh wow. Yeah, that is a very rare situation for somebody who moves from Ireland to the US in the 1800s.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

He's doing well. So on one such trip to Galway, he meets and falls in love with Gertrude, or Queenie. So true love blossomed. But there were two small problems, racism and religious bigotry. Because back then the Irish were still considered primeval savages by the English establishment. James Froude, professor of history at Oxford, declared that the Irish Were, quote, more like squalid apes than human beings.

[Robert]

While good British.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

I lived there for a while. I could, I could kind of do the upper class one and the working class, but nothing in between. Anyway, another English academic, John Bidot, held that the racial inferiority of the Irish made us genetically inclined to criminality, which was evident by studying the skulls and phrenology of Irish.

[Robert]

That sounds scientific. Sure.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Who had, who had, quote, a Negro appearance?

[Robert]

Oh boy.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Yeah.

[Robert]

Oh, wow.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Oh, yeah. There's still institutions in Ireland where they have the heads of like Gaelic speakers, the skulls. And we've given back like the Pacific Islanders, but they're kind of like, no, we're holding on to the Irish ones. So some of them have only just come back. But anyway. Further complicating matters for these star crossed lovers, apart from the different nationalities, was the fact that Michael Joyce was a Catholic whilst his fiance was Protestant. Now, such mixed marriages were controversial at the time, though nobody in Ireland today, well, in Southern Ireland at least, gives a shit about it. So Michael and Gertrude's engagement was so controversial that her parents refused to attend their 1905 New York wedding. Instead, Queenie's parents sent her brother Gilbert, a lawyer, to the ceremony to, quote, see that the thing was done right. Now, there have been many biographies of Joyce, but the best is probably by Colin Holmes, an English academic who suggests that Joyce was born out of wedlock two years before the marriage. And that is the reason why her family only sent one person to the wedding who was a lawyer. Wow.

[Robert]

Wow. That's such a bitchy move, like just sending your lawyer to their.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

And he's a family member as well, so they don't even have to pay him anyway. So throughout his life, Joyce repeatedly claimed to be born in different years and in different places, probably heightened.

[Robert]

Ah, classic bastard. Yeah, yeah.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

So William Joyce was born sometime between 1903 and, and 1906 in either America or Ireland. As a boy, he was baptized in his father's religion of Catholicism. William Joyce's mother wanted to name him William Brook Joyce, following in the Protestant Irish tradition of co joining both parents surnames. But Joyce's Catholic father forbid it because like his son, he was a gigantic asshole. In 1913, Michael Joyce used his American wealth to buy a pub in his home, place of Mayo. But the business failed after Michael Joyce killed one of his best customers. One of his regulars got really drunk one night and Michael, instead of looking after him, simply threw him out of the pub when he ran out of money. This man's body was found Lying against the pub wall the next morning.

[Robert]

Jesus.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Yeah. He had died of hypothermia whilst sheltering against the gable end of the building, trying to get shelter from the wind and the rain. This resulted in all the locals successfully boycotting the bar, and the Joyce's were forced to sell it.

[Robert]

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Like a really good barkeeper here today who knows their locals, who, like, wait till the end of their shift and will actually drive them home, you know? Yeah, so. And I've seen that happen. But anyway, so the family moved to Galway City, where Michael Joyce again invests in real estate. Robert, have you ever been to Galway?

[Robert]

Yes, yes. I love it. I mean, I think it's probably the prettiest city I've been to in Ireland. It's my second favorite after. I really like Dublin, but, yeah, I love Galway.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Galway is a great place. It's an incredible party town. And Steve Orrell wrote a great song about it called Galway Garway.

[Robert]

He did, he sure did.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Yeah. But don't listeners confuse it with the Ed Sheeran song of the same name, which is shit.

[Robert]

No, no, don't. But do listen to Steve Earle.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Galway has long been famous as one of the last bastions of indigenous Gaelic Irish culture. And that is exactly why young William Joyce hates Galway, because he hates everything Irish. He wants nothing more throughout his whole life than to be British, which, as Madonna discovered, is very complicated if you're actually an American. William Joyce was the eldest of four children. He was six years older than his brother Quentin, who was the next eldest sibling. So, unsurprisingly, for many years, William was spoiled as a mama's boy. Queenie always felt out of place in Irish American enclaves in Brooklyn and later in Ireland. And while her husband Michael was working, Queenie was left alone with baby William and doted on him, telling him, you are the sugar in my tea. Without you, there is no British Empire, and you will be a great man someday. So, Robert, I've sent you a pic, if you can find it there, of. We have a picture of Joyce at school.

[Robert]

Mm.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

What's the vibe of this kid? If you can bring it up, he.

[Robert]

Looks like a little shit. Like, I'm gonna be honest with you. Like, he's got his. He's got his arms crossed in a way children seldom do.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Yeah. Like, the only two other people in the group photo have their arms cross are the teacher and the teacher's kid who's sitting at his feet.

[Robert]

He looks very unpleasant. He looks like he's judging you like he looks like. I want to say to him, like, you're not better than me, you little piece of shit. You're just a kid. What the fuck are you looking at me for? That. That way.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Well, remember, without him, there will be no British Empire. So there you go.

[Robert]

Well, that's another reason to fight this kid.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

From an early age, Joyce was noted for being intelligent and precocious. He was a keen chess player and boxer who showed a talent for languages. But he was also a loner. So he came up with a plan to make friends. His dad rented a property to the cops as a police station. And William snuck in one day, stole a gun and brought it to school. Just a normal.

[Robert]

That'll make you friends. Yeah, that's. That'll make you friends.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

So it's totally fine. He doesn't shoot anybody. All the other boys in school think the gun is super cool, but they still think that Joyce, who's brought it in, is a massive dork. So Joyce's parents had enrolled him in a Catholic school. And this may surprise listeners, but the Catholic Church in Ireland in the early 1900s was 100% supportive of British rule. Since the time of the American Revolution, Catholic bishops had condemned every single Irish rebellion against the British. So in return for their loyalty, the British government allowed the Catholic Church to run almost all of the elementary schools in Ireland. This not only.

[Robert]

That ended well.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Yeah, absolutely. That's what we're doing. This not only allowed Catholic priests to ensure the spiritual indoctrination and brainwashing of Irish children, it also gave Catholic priests political power and social status required to ensure a nationwide conveyor belt of children who they could rape and abuse without legal consequence. In the early 20th century, the British government and the Catholic Church implemented for form of cultural genocide to try and destroy any sense of Irish identity their pupils had. And to replace this with a sense of Britishness, children in Catholic run Irish primary schools had to recite a poem each morning which ran, I thank the goodness and the grace which on my birth had smiled and made me in these Christian days a happy English child. Each year, all elementary schools in Ireland celebrated Empire Day on 24 May, when pupils were taught that the British Empire is one big happy family of nations. Like your own families. There is a father and a mother and children in Britain, the parents are the English and the children are the Scots, Irish and Welsh. If the Scots, Irish or Welsh ever went their own way, then God will be very disappointed.

[Robert]

Now, let's see. That doesn't even make sense. With families. Because the whole point of a family is that eventually the children are adults and go their own way and get married on their own. Right. The whole point of a family, since the kids are always underneath the parents thumbs, you know, that's just. That's not even how family really worked back then.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

The analogy also fails because families inevitably end up rowing with each other quite a lot, right?

[Robert]

Constantly, yes. The worst fights are between family members. Also, only one family member inherits at this point in time.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

I don't know which is the parents, which is not how it's supposed to work. Anyway. Children were then taught the slogan of Empire Day, which was one king, one flag, one fleet, one empire. Remind you of anything, Robert?

[Robert]

Yeah, one people, one nation, one Volk.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Yeah, ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer. That's it.

[Robert]

Yeah, yeah, one Fuhrer. Sorry. Yeah.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

So the Catholic priests running these schools, when they weren't busy abusing Irish children, loved nothing more than to beat the shit out of Irish kids who actually had the audacity to speak Gaelic, their native language. So this is similar, Robert, to what happened to first nations kids in Canada.

[Robert]

Right.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

But it wasn't as extreme here because even though the English establishment considered us racially inferior, at least we were white. So anyway, young William Joyce just fucking loves all the British imperialism that he is getting in school. And he loves school and education. Until one day he asked the priest if his Protestant mother would go to heaven when she died. And of course the priest says, no, your mother is going straight to hell where she will burn in a torment forever with all the other Protestants because that's just how the Catholic Church rules.

[Robert]

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's funny, I had a similar, I grew up Episcopalian and I had a similar talk with a, a youth group leader about that where I was asking him about like different, like Gandhi and stuff, and he was like, oh no, they're all. Everyone else is going to hell. Like everyone who was not the specific kind of Christian that we are is going straight to hell forever.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Yeah. At least the Mormons are nice enough to re. Baptize the dead and try.

[Robert]

Yeah, right. You baptize Anne Frank decades after her death like a normal person.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Other things we could criticize the Mormons on, but at least I think they're well intentioned.

[Robert]

Anyway, it is, when you think about it, it's nicer than some of the other things. Yeah.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

So Joyce gets super pissed when the priest who's teaching him throws eternal shade on his Protestant mum. So up to this point he had been a model student, but from then on, he says, fuck homework, and he starts spending all his spare time on politics. And it was an interesting time in Irish politics. So at this time, all of Ireland's north and south was still part of the the uk, but after centuries of colonialism, ordinary Irish people were getting tired of being repeatedly over and exploited by an English political elite. So after the outbreak.

[Robert]

Yeah, that would get on your nerves.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Yeah. After the outbreak of World War I, a broad popular front of Irish republicans whose politics are very different to those of American republicans. These Irish Republicans start planning a rebellion against the English king, who, of course, was then distracted from Irish affairs temporarily by throwing millions of British soldiers at German machine guns in the hope of defeating his cousin and bastard pods alumni, Kaiser Wilhelm ii.

[Robert]

Yeah, yeah. Always good when he comes up.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Who was horny for his mother's hands, if your research is correct. Yeah.

[Robert]

Weird hand fetish. Yeah, yeah.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

So anyway, the rebellion is known here as the 1916 Rising. It's largely confined to Dublin, but Galway, where William Joyce lived, was one of the few places outside the little word, or was fighting. We don't need to go into all the details on the rebellion here. Basically, the Irish rebels wanted to break free of Britain, establish an independent republic, launched the rebellion in April 1916, fought the British army, managed to hold out for a week before being defeated. And Margaret Killjoy did a whole series on this rebellion for cool people who did cool stuff. So if you want to learn more about it, you can. You can start there.

[Robert]

Yeah.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

So anyway, this rebellion freaks young William Joyce out. And the following year, when the Bolshevik Revolution happens in Russia, he goes way down the conspiracy rabbit hole. And he's convinced that both the Russian Revolution and the rebellion in Ireland are part of a secret, global Irish, German, Jewish, Bolshevik plot to destroy the British Empire.

[Robert]

Yeah, that makes sense. Yep.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

So Joyce hits on a new plan to make himself popular at school. Instead of bringing another gun to class. That didn't work too well the first time. He decides to tell his classmates about all his favorite new conspiracy theories.

[Robert]

Oh, boy.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Yeah. One of his schoolmates, Owen Keenan, recalled, quote, he was a morose and lonely little fellow. For all his brightness, there was something missing in young Willie. He would give impromptu speeches in the playground, warning us about the growing dangers of Bolshevism. But, Robert, do you know who won't make impromptu speeches in the playground warning their playmates about Bolshevism?

[Robert]

Some of our sponsors might. I'm not gonna categorically say not, but, you know, some of them are fine with it.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

I was going to say the Irish Republican Army. Yes, that's.

[Robert]

Oh, well, yes.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

No, yeah. The good old IRA. Because in 1917, the IRA, despite being almost entirely Catholic, were actually very supportive of Soviet Russia. Robert remember those 16 pounds of diamonds Tsarina and her daughters had sewed into their bodices and they accidentally turned into bulletproof vests during the execution in the basement in e. Katrina Burg? Well, when the Bolsheviks got the diamonds off the corpses, some of them ended up hidden in the chimney of a senior IRA leader in Dublin named Harry Boland after a secret financial. Yeah, a secret financial deal between the Soviet Union and the ira. But that's a long story. We don't have time to go into here. No, but what we do have time for is ads.

[Robert]

That's right. This is an advertisement by betterhelp. The holidays are a time of traditions and some people have a lot of those in their family, some have none at all. For some people, holiday traditions and memories of the past can be a time of joy. And for some people they can be very difficult, complicated. Whatever the case is for you, therapy can help you take the time for yourself during what can be a joyful but also hectic and lonely time of the year. BetterHelp can be a good option if you are looking to explore therapy. BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully qualified. BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences and their 12 plus years of experience and industry leading match fulfillment rate means they typically get it right the first time. With over 30,000 therapists worldwide, BetterHelp is one of the leading online therapy platforms Having served over 5 million people globally and it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. So this December, start a new tradition by taking care of you. Our listeners get 10% [e-mail] behind that's betterhelp.com behind.

[Ad Voice]

10 athletes will face the toughest job interview in fitness that will push past physical and mental breaking points. You are the fittest of the fit. Only one of you will leave here with an IFIT contract worth $250,000.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

This is where mindset comes in.

[Ad Voice]

Someone will be eliminated. Pressure is coming down.

[Robert]

Trainer games on Prime Video January 8th. Watch the trailer on trainergames.com Season 2.

[Ad Voice]

Of Unrivaled Basketball is here and the talent is Unreal. The best women's players on the planet are running it back with even bigger moments and bigger stakes. Don't miss as Paige Beckers, Nafiza Collier, Kelsey Plumb, Briana Stewart and more. Take the court and redefine the game. This isn't your regular season. This is unrivaled, where the pace is faster, the energy is higher, and every athlete shines unrivaled. Basketball Season 2, sponsored by Samsung Galaxy, tips off January 5th on TNT, TruTV and HBO. Max.

[Ad Voice 2]

Your ticket to big savings is that big blue envelope in your mailbox, Valpak. It's brimming with deals from big name brands and your favorite local spots, dining services, stuff you're already buying, all for less. And you could score $100 or other instant prizes just for opening it. Or save even faster with mobile coupons you can use right [e-mail] Valpak there's definitely something in it for you.

[Robert]

Coming back, I gotta say. You have to imagine that guy has to have on at least one occasion have had people over, gotten a little bit too drunk and taken the diamonds out, right? You gotta be like, you gotta see this shit, man. You gotta. Come on, come on, come on, have another shot. And I gotta show you something fucking nuts.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

He ended up being shot in 1922. So he didn't live long enough to enjoy the diamonds, but his family had them for years. And then in like the 1950s, the Irish Prime Minister Eamon de Valera like quietly gave them back to Russia. Just both countries were like, maybe we shouldn't mention this.

[Robert]

These probably shouldn't be here.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Yeah. So anyway, after World War I, there is general election in the UK which Ireland was then still officially part of. And Sinn Fein, the Irish Republican Rebel Party, won a majority of 73 of the 105 Irish seats in the British parliament. These 73 Irish republican members of parliament decided to set up their own assembly in Dublin and at it declared independence from Britain. The British, of course, immediately declared this democratically elected Irish government illegal. And Britain's colonial police force in Ireland, the Royal Irish Constabulary, or ric, were mobilized to suppress Irish democracy. The IRA in turn responded with a guerrilla campaign against them, resulting in the Irish War of Independence, which lasted from 1919 to 1921. So in early 1920, conspiracy nerd William Joyce witnessed the British shooting dead an IRA volunteer as part of this conflict in Galway. And it thrilled him. And Joyce immediately volunteered to assist the British forces in any way he could. Now, traditionally, British rule in Ireland had been Maintained not by the British army, but by this Irish police force or British police force in Ireland, the Royal Irish Constabulary, or ric. It was largely staffed by Irishmen recruited to keep their fellow natives in line. The RIC basically becomes the model for colonial policing across the British Empire from India to Palestine to Kenya. And Irishmen in the RIC were generally happy to keep oppressing their fellow Irishmen until the IRA began shooting them dead in large numbers, thus prompting hundreds of Irishmen to resign from the force. Now, this poses a problem for the British government. If they sent the British army in as the main force fighting the republicans, they will be admitting that the IRA were a real army and that there was a real war happening. The British line, however, was that the IRA were just a small criminal gang having regular shootouts with the Irish cops. So in response, the British government invented the Black and Tan. Now, Robert, this will surprise some of your listeners, but the phrase black and tan can refer to several different things. So listeners in LA will know they have a local uniform club for gay men called the Black and Tan Society.

[Robert]

Different thing, different thing.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Most Americans will know a cocktail of the same name they drink along with disgusting green beer on St. Patrick's Day. But in Ireland, the phrase has a different meaning. If you ever walk into a real Irish bar in Ireland and order a Black and Tan, or an Irish car bomb for that matter, you are very likely. I have seen this happen. You are very likely to get the shit kicked out of you.

[Robert]

Yeah, not good. Not a good move.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Yeah. This is because the drink, the cocktail, the Black and Tan is named after the largely English mercenaries recruited into the RIC during the War of Independence, who gained a fairly well deserved reputation for committing war crimes against the Irish, including torture, murder, arson and rape. So anyway, back to our bastard William Joyce. He sees the tag.

[Robert]

Pretty good song about fighting them.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Yeah, check out Steve Coogan's Alan Partridge version of that song. It's brilliant.

[Robert]

Yeah, it is.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

So anyway, back to our bastard, William Joyce. He sees the Tans coming to Ireland in 1920 and he is cheering them on. Now, some pro British loyalists in Ireland, like Joyce, do join the Black and Tans. But remember, this kid is something around 15 years old at the time, so he's too young to officially become a cop. So instead, Joyce ingratiates himself with members of the RIC and the Black and Tans by volunteering to run errands for them, buying their cigarettes in shops at a time when Irish shopkeepers refused to serve British troops. That kind of thing, real low level stuff. Joyce also passed on whatever scraps of information about IRA activity that he could gather from loose talk around the town. And he would give this to his British pals. He also volunteered as an identifier for RIC patrols traveling in their motor convoys to point out the homes of IRA members and sympathisers, which were then raided. They needed him because, remember, a lot of the new RIC recruits were Englishmen who didn't have a clue where they were going or who they were looking for. Some members of the RIC saw Joyce as their teenage mascot. Others found Joyce a nuisance. And one Irish RIC constable later recalled, quote, he was one of our greatest embarrassments. His trouble was fanatical patriotism to England and a burning wish to fight the rebels. He often tried to smuggle himself into our lorries. We laughed at him, but if he was killed or wounded, it would have caused our patrol a lot of trouble, according to Douglas. Yeah, according to Douglas. Yeah. It's just. It's a war zone. I think I'll jump on this Humvee and take a ride around and point out the houses of the insurgents. Let's see how that works.

[Robert]

That's not gonna piss anybody off.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

No. According to Douglas V. Duff, an English Black and Tan from Dorchester, Joyce eventually became such an annoyance that when they found him stowed away one day under patrol boat, they threw him into the middle of Galway harbour and he had to swim back to shore. Joyce.

[Robert]

Not a warm harbor.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Yeah, not a warm harbor. It's mostly filled with bottles of Buckfast now, if you know Galway.

[Robert]

Yeah.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Anyway, Joyce overcame this setback to ingratiate himself with an even worse group of British paramilitary police, the Auxiliary Division of the Royal Irish Constabulary, more commonly known here in Ireland as the Auxies. Now, the Auxies were similar to the Tans or the Black and Tans, but instead of being recruited from ordinary, low ranking ex British soldiers, they were only recruited from ex officers. So they're a bit like an elite kind of special forces unit. The Oxies were a much more effective fighting force. They were much more extreme in their methods, more ruthless, more violent and determined than the Tans. To quote One of the IRA's most famous leaders of that era, Tom Barry. Quote, there were good and bad men amongst the Tans, but the Auxies were bastards to a man.

[Robert]

Short and sweet.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Yeah. Not a man who makes these words. When D Company of the Auxies arrived in Galway, Joyce immediately volunteered to help them with the same kind of low level intelligence work that he had done for the Tans. D Company were one of the worst auxy units. In a notorious incident in November 1920, they shot dead Eileen Quinn, a 24 year old woman who was seven months pregnant. Quinn had been sitting on a wall outside her home breastfeeding her nine month old child when the Aussies drove up to the house and shot her dead at point blank range without warning. D Company specialized in abducting IRA members and sympathizers and torturing and murdering them before mutilating their bodies and burying them in bogs. The same month that they shot Eileen Quinn dead, D Company captured brothers Harry and Patrick Lochnan, who were both members of the ira. The Loch Nan brothers were tied to the back of a British army lorry and forced to run behind us as it traveled at speed. When they inevitably fell exhausted, the van continued to drive, dragging the men along the road surface until they were dead.

[Robert]

Yeah.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

The auxies then carved their unit insignia into the flesh of Patrick Lochnan's chest and cut off two of Harry's fingers to keep as souvenirs. Eventually they set fire to the body and dumped them in a lake. So very reminiscent of kind of stuff that was done to the Viet Cong.

[Robert]

By us, the Viet Cong. I mean, it's reminiscent of stuff you've seen in the American. Like in Texas where I come from, there was a very famous case of a young gay man who was killed by being dragged behind a car. Stuff like that. And you hear, I mean like the. I'm thinking of the Berkut in Ukraine, which, you know, would do these. It wasn't so much dragging people to death, but it was like throwing them in naked into freezing snowbanks activists and killing them that way. Like, I think there's a lot of things that makes me think of.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Yeah, it's incredible what people are capable of. But anyway, you and I for some reason find it fascinating to read about this.

[Robert]

Yeah.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

D Company also abducted and murdered Michael Tolan, a physically disabled IRA intelligence officer who they castrated and shot dead before burying his body in a box. D Company's best known victim was one of the few Catholic priests who actually supported the ira, Father Michael Griffin. Father Griffin was abducted from his home, shot dead and buried in the bog west of Galway City. Now later, rumors would claim, and you'll still find this online, that William Joyce, as a local young boy, had played a role in luring Father Griffin out of his home. But there is no reliable historical evidence to support this. But these murders will give you, the listener, an idea of the kind of people Joyce is now working for. Right so as the war drags on into 1921, Joyce came to the attention of Captain William Keating, head of British Army Intelligence in Galway. Now, Keating probably knew Joyce personally, as both of his sons attended the same school as Joyce. Keating decided to recruit Joyce as a courier. So by now, he's not a British soldier, he's not an official member of the British army, but he is on their payroll. And working for the army was seen as being more respectable than doing errands for a paramilitary police force. So the Irish War of Independence ends on 11 July, 1921. About 2,300 people were killed in the conflict. Now, that may not seem like much, but remember, Ireland is a very small country with a small population. So to put that in perspective, think of what you know about the north of Ireland, Northern Ireland, and how vicious the conflict was there. The Irish War of independence saw 2,300 people killed in just three years, compared to 3,700 people dying in the Troubles in the north over 30 years. So it's a much more condensed version of the conflict.

[Robert]

Yeah, it's higher intensity conflict. Yeah.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Whilst the ceasefire was holding, the IRA were still gathering intelligence. Joyce was on their radar before this. Now, they had known all along that he was a British loyalist, but he was by far wasn't, you know, the only British loyalist who was. Who was around. But they didn't know how involved he was in assisting the British forces until they intercepted a British cipher code being sent to him in the mail. At this point, the IRA sanctioned Joyce's execution as an enemy agent, but they could not kill him because it would have been a breach of the ceasefire and it would have interfered with the political negotiations which were then ongoing. Joyce discovered that the IRA were onto him, but for the moment, they couldn't lay a finger on him. And he really revels in this. He decides to rob the IRA's faces in it. So he starts openly associating with the British forces in Galway, who are kind of like he's, you know, protection unit. There's going to be no more disguises or cloak and dagger shit. He's just letting it all hang out in the open. So one day, Michael Staines, who's a senior IRA leader and a member of the rebel Irish government, was walking through Galway when he encountered William Joyce. Quote, William Joyce was quite a young fellow, about 16 years of age. I saw him with some members of the RIC Auxiliary Division. And as I went by, he passed some jeering remarks and actually spat at me. There was an IRA volunteer with me, who wanted to shoot Joyce there and then. So he's got some balls, this kid.

[Robert]

Yeah.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Staines was one of the liaison officers between the IRA and the British military during the ceasefire. And he was, unsurprisingly, super pissed about this. And he marched straight into the office of British Divisional Commissioner Cruise, who was commanding that unit. We talked about D Company of the Auxies, and Staines let him know in no uncertain terms that the IRA were onto Joyce and that he was fucked if the ceasefire did not hold. Joyce knew the IRA could not do shit to him for as long as peace talks were ongoing. And he basically thinks that it's all going to work out fine for him. But In December of 1921, a section of the rebel Irish government reached a peace deal with the British. Now, this is complex, but all you need to know is that the treaty they agreed on in late 1921, early 1922, divided Ireland into the two parts it's in now the north of Ireland, or Northern Ireland, to give it its official name, which would stay part of the uk was the southern part of Ireland was going to get partial independence, kind of on the same basis that Canada had within the British Empire at the time. Something called dominion status.

[Robert]

Right.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

So under this peace deal, which of course didn't deliver a lasting peace in Ireland, that's another story. The British pulled all their troops out of the south of Ireland and moved them either back to Britain or up to the north. The first to withdraw were the units that William Joyce had been most closely associated with the in the ric. So now Joyce is in trouble. His RIC bodyguards are leaving Galway, and the IRA will soon be in total control of the city once the British army finishes its evacuation. And at this point, William Joyce is forced to stop spitting at the leaders of the IRA and he goes into hiding. Yeah, not so cocky, are you, now, Joyce? Just when it looks like Joyce is fucked, fate steps in and saves him. And this, I think, is one of the interesting things about him. This is going to happen a few times in his life, or either a person or circumstances change at the last second to his benefit. And in 1921, his saviour was Captain Keating, who had recruited Joyce as courier for the British Army. Keating arranged for Joyce to be enlisted in the Worcester Regiment and transferred to England, thus saving him from the otherwise certain fate of being assassinated by the IRA for being a British intelligence agent. But, Robert, do you know who won't assassinate British intelligence agents?

[Robert]

I mean, I would hope our podcast sponsors would. Would be capable of doing that, you know, that's certainly something we ask each of them. Could you. Could you kill James Bond? Theoretically. Like if he tried to interfere with your operations? And they all say yes. But could they be lying to me? It's possible.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Possibly. Because I would have thought. Would a British intelligence agent lie to you? Never. I would have thought that, unlike the ira, they all support King Sausage Fingers himself, Charles the Third of England, and his weird brother Andrew, who definitely has not done anything untoward in Jeffrey Epstein's company.

[Robert]

No, no, he just stopped being the Prince for no reason.

[Ad Voice]

10 athletes will face the toughest job interview in fitness that will push past physical and mental breaking points. You are the fittest of the fit. Only one of you will leave here with an IFIT contract worth $250,000.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

This is where mindset comes in.

[Ad Voice]

Someone will be eliminated. Pressure is coming down.

[Robert]

Trainer Games on Prime Video January 8th. Watch the trailer on trainergames.com Season 2.

[Ad Voice]

Of Unrivaled Basketball is here and the talent is unreal. Paige Beckers, Nafiza Collier, Kelsey Plumb, Brianna Stewart and more are back to redefine the game. Unrivaled basketball season two, sponsored by Samsung Galaxy, tips off January 5 on TNT, TruTV and HBO Max. It's the most wonderful time of the year, and Valpak is here to make it even better this month as you sift through holiday mail, don't miss the blue Valpak envelope. From dining to holiday shopping, there's a slate full of savings in your mailbox, plus a chance to instantly win $100. That's right, you can find $100 Christmas cash inside. Want to save even more money on what you love? Go to valpak.com for local coupons and offers. It pays to open Valpak. No purchase necessary for instant win voip prohibited prices are randomly inserted. See specially marked Valpak envelopes for details.

[Ad Voice 2]

Bring incredible sound into every corner of your home this holiday with the new Whimsound Smart speaker. Get high resolution Audio with a 1.8-inch touchscreen, smart control and modern design in one powerful speaker for just $2.99. From Quiet Mornings to lively holiday gatherings, Whimsound makes every moment sound better and feel better too. Get the gift of the season for the music enthusiast in your life or for yourself. Whim sound Beautifully designed, effortlessly connected. Shop now at Amazon and search Whimsound. That's W I I M S O U N D.

[Robert]

And we're back.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

So I wonder how Cool Zone Media's lawyers feel about that last ad pivot.

[Robert]

Anyway, I feel like it's pretty safe these days.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Yeah, I. I don't. I don't enjoy the First Amendment rights and legal terms you have so to be more careful in. In Ireland anyway. Although I suspect Prince Andrew won't be leaving the jurisdiction of Britain anytime soon.

[Robert]

If we have one right in the United States, it's talking shit about the British royal family. Kind of foundational.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Yeah. So in early 1922, young William Joyce is safe from the IRA. He's living in a British army barracks in England. But by now, the British, of course, have no real use for him. He had a purpose when he was in Ireland. But now that the British have done a deal with a faction of the Irish rebels, their focus is on their other imperialist projects in Egypt and India and Palestine, where Joyce would, of course, have been useless. So he was probably underage, he was definitely physically unfit, and he had never fired a gun in combat. So within a few months, he gets kicked out of the British Army. Now, William Joyce enrolled in Birkbeck College in London, where he joined the college branch of the British Conservative and Unionist Party, also known as the Tory Party. And he was hoping that he would find his political soulmates there. Instead, he was disappointed that they weren't supportive enough of the Irish loyalist cause. And he was disappointed because they didn't express the same interest in anti Semitic conspiracy theories about Irish affairs that he did.

[Robert]

That's a shame.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Political disappointments aside, he managed to graduate with a degree in English. He toyed with the idea of studying for a master's in history, but never put the required effort into securing a place at university. When asked about this failure later in life, he fabricated the excuse that, quote, some thieving Jew had stolen his research. Next, he applied for a job in the British government's foreign Office. And when this application was rejected, he again used the excuse that the Jews were responsible.

[Robert]

Sure. No, yeah. Keep. Keep going back to that. Well, buddy.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Yeah. Joyce eventually got a job as a high school teacher teaching English in England, a country where everybody already spoke the language. I'm reminded of Ralph Wiggum and the Simpsons. Me fail English. That's oom possible. At the time that he was working as a teacher, his conservative anti Semitic politics were becoming even more extreme. And he kept ranting on about how a supposed Jewish Communist cabal were responsible for the creation of the IRA and for all his misfortunes in Ireland. But again, this was in England, where, despite ruling us, very few of the people, except for the most hardcore Conservatives really knew or cared anything about Ireland, so he was largely ignored. But things were soon to change for young Willie. In late 1922, an Italian asshole named Mussolini put fascism on the world stage. And in early 1923, his British fanboys formed England's first fascist group. On 6 May 1923, Miss Rotha Linton Ormond, the daughter of British army war hero Major Charles Ormond, decided to found the British Fascist team. She had previously helped found the Girl Scouts and had been a suffragette and an ambulance driver during World War I. She played. Yeah, she placed a series of six adverts in the Duke of Northumberland's newspaper, the Patriot, which was infamous for peddling conspiracy theories and xenophobia. I've sent you a picture of her, Robert. It's well work looking up just to get an idea of her vibe and her energy.

[Robert]

Oh yeah, I mean, she definitely looks like. She definitely looks like someone who would both be a suffragette and also a fascist activist. Like she's put together in that way.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Yeah, yeah. It's worth Googling other pictures of her and finding out more about her. Fascinating person. But anyway, the British Fascisty campaigns to protect Britain from communism, socialism, Irish Republicanism, anarchism, trade unionism, atheism and free love.

[Robert]

So they probably weren't all the isms.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Jeez, all the isms.

[Robert]

So they probably, every one of them.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

They probably weren't much fun at parties.

[Robert]

No.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Lynton Orman claimed the moral, spiritual and fundamental objects of British and Italian fascists are identical. Those joining the British Fascisti were required to swear an oath to uphold His Majesty, gracious King George, his heirs and successors, and to render every service in the struggle against all treacherous revolutionary movements now working for the destruction of the monarchy and the British Empire. In the early years, there was a significant crossover membership between the British Fascisti and the British Conservative Party. The group's primary activity was to act as bodyguards for Conservative Party politicians and protect Conservative meetings from interference by left wing Hitlers. Joyce joined the British Fascisti in London shortly after their formation and he was soon promoted to Commander of I Squad. On 24 October 1924, Joyce led the members of his unit to the constituency of Lambeth north, where they had been tasked with acting as an honor guard for an election rally for the local Conservative candidate. The meeting was disrupted by a group of anti fascist protesters, one of whom attacked Joyce, slashing his face from the right corner of his mouth to his right ear with a straight razor.

[Robert]

See, I can already see the problem, which is that, you know, great instincts. But if you just slash someone in the face, you're gonna wind up making them look cool. Like, if you just give someone a facial scar, you're gonna wind up making them look cooler. Yeah.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

And you have I sent you an image there or people can Google it. You've probably seen it before. Robert oh, that's a great series. Yeah.

[Robert]

Ah, yeah, no, that's the scar they all want to have right up to the air, like.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Yeah, because this the thing that, like the SS and German military guys love fencing without masks and they want disgramma the scar.

[Robert]

Whereas Joyce, the dueling scar, he. You couldn't buy a better scar than that if you went to a fancy dueling college.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Yeah, it's like a fucking James Bond film scar. Like.

[Robert]

Yeah, exactly. It's like a fake scar.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Anyway, Joyce is left with a prominent facial scar for the rest of his life and he claimed that a male Jewish communist had attacked him. However, his first wife, Hazel later told his biographer Colin Holmes, it wasn't the Jewish Communist who disfigured him. He was knifed by an Irish woman. Now, nice. Unfortunately, we don't know who this hero Irish woman was. I like to think was probably Jake Hanrahan's great grandmother. Once again, Joyce was blaming Jews for all his problems. But the anti fascist protesters had mostly been Irish Republican sympathizers who, according to press reports, interrupted the meeting by singing Irish rebel songs and heckling before attempting to storm the platform and seize the British flag. The protesters appear to have been aware of Joyce's presence and his previous work as a spy for the British in Ireland. A reporter for the Lambeth Free Press described the. The tumult was terrific and the speaker could not be heard. A few young men began to sing Come Back to Aaron. A couple of men apparently came to blows and the crowd surged forward. The excitement was tremendous, and from out of the crowd there suddenly emerged a young steward with blood streaming from a nasty gash in the cheek. Mr. William Joyce of Alison Grove Dulwich was led to the rear and was supposedly taken to Lambeth Infirmary for treatment. It is stated that he was slashed with a razor. So Joyce's assailant was most likely a member of Cumannamon who were the IRA's female counterpart. And whoever she was, she was not the only Irish woman in the 20s to try and assassinate a fascist leader, leaving them with a permanent scar. The other was Violet Gibson, who in April 1926 attempted to assassinate Mussolini by shooting him in the head at a public rally. At the last microsecond, Mussolini turned his head and survived minus a small part of the bridge of his nose, which he succeeded in shooting off. Mussolini appeared in public wearing a prominent bandage on his face for several weeks afterwards. History does not repeat itself, but it does tend to rhyme a lot.

[Robert]

Yeah, that. Oh, boy. Probably the less said about that, the better.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Time is a flat circle, Robert. Anyway, William Joyce was hospitalized for several weeks, recovering from his facial wound. But he was troubled by the possibility that he might miss the Armistice day commemorations on 11 November, which commemorated the British war dead of World War I from the 1920s. This event had always been hugely popular with the British far right, and today this tradition is still maintained by the neo Nazi group the National Front, which still holds a march to the Cenotaph in London every remembrance Sunday. On the 11th of November 1924, Joyce snuck out of hospital without being medically discharged so that he could attend the ceremony. But he was still so weak from his injuries that the IRA had inflicted on him that he collapsed. He was given first aid by a fellow fascist at the ceremony named Hazel Barr, who was to become the future Mrs. William Joyce. Joyce got a job teaching at a school in Chelsea in London. The pair married in 1927 and she soon became pregnant. The same year, he began an illicit sexual relationship with one of his pupils named Mary Ogilvy. The age of consent in Britain at the time was 16, and the pair claimed their relationship didn't begin until she turned 16, which I'm not entirely sure is true, but I have no way of proving or disproving it completely. At this time, Joyce was between 21 and 25 years of age. So I reckon it's borderline whether you can accurately call him a pedophile or not. I say pedophile, you say pedophile. Potato, potato. But look, whether or not we can technically call Joyce pedophile, the relationship is pretty creepy on Joyce's part. He's barely back from his honeymoon, he's cheating on his pregnant wife with a teenage schoolgirl who's probably a decade younger than him. So at the very least, it's an abuse of power from an authority figure of a vulnerable minor in their care. Yeah, so anyway, Joyce's wife appears to have been unaware of the affair and she gave birth to their first daughter, named after her mother, Hazel. And a few years later, the couple had a second daughter. The dismarital and domestic drama aside, Joyce was still an active member of the British Fascisti into the late 1920s. But he drifted away when the movement began to flounder in the early 1930s. The movement had always been bankrolled by Rotha Linton Ormond's wealthy mother, who immediately cut off finances for her daughter when she heard lurid rumors about her daughter's morphine habit and involvement in alcohol fueled orgies at their country mansion. Cut off financially, Ormond grew increasingly dependent on alcohol and drugs and died within a year. Santa Brigada under Canary Islands, just 40 years of age. So for the second time in his life, Joyce was politically adrift, having been failed by his political messiah. The first political leader to fail Joyce had been his childhood hero, Sir Edward Carson, the Irish loyalist leader who had led the pro British movement against the IRA and any form of Irish independence. Incidentally, Carson was also the barrister who led the prosecution of Oscar Wilde for sodomy.

[Robert]

Oh, good.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Yep, there you are. He's ticking all the boxes. However, Carson had failed Joyce when he signed up to an agreement with the British in the early 1920s and that saw Southern Ireland, as we mentioned, begin to break away from England and effectively abandoning pro British families like the Joyces in the south of Ireland. So now, a decade later, he'd been failed again by the founder, Lynton Ormond, who had died in obscurity instead of delivering a fascist Britain. So in the early 1930s, Joyce was once more politically adrift when a new political saviour loomed into view. That is where we are going to end it for today. What do you think so far?

[Robert]

Robert Boy packed a lot of bastardry into this episode already. I'm excited to see where he goes from here.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

This is just something people don't talk about. Everyone rushes straight to World War II. But I think this is fascinating.

[Robert]

No, no. Why? This guy was a piece of. Wasn't just a piece of shit for opportunistic reasons. He was a dedicated piece of shit. He worked at being a piece you don't want to. You can't take that away from him. You know, that's not fair. He put in the hours to be a piece of shit. You know, this is. He didn't just start late in his career. I'm a believer in honoring hard work.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

He's bringing guns to school and spitting at IRA leaders and his teens. Like, yeah, he's, he's, he's a piece of work. So, Ross, another thing that's a piece of work are your pluggables. What do you have to plug?

[Robert]

Oh, you're asking my pluggables? I mean, if you're Here you listen to my podcast, so you know basically where to find me. What about yours?

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Well, I have a book out. It is called Burn Them Out. It is a history of fascism and the far right in Ireland. That's the title and it is published by Bloomsbury, head of Zeus. So if you just Google Burn Them Out, Irish Fascism, it should come up and you can buy that online or in all good bookshops and some bad ones.

[Robert]

Excellent. Well, find it at a good bookshop or a bad one. You know, I'm assuming you get money either way.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Yeah, I'm not sure if I still get money if people shoplift it, but I assume I do.

[Robert]

No. Yeah, yeah. I mean, one way or the other, the book has moved, right?

[Padraig O'Rourke]

The book is moved. Somebody has read it. Yeah.

[Robert]

All right, everybody, this has been behind the Basterds. We will be back on Thursday with part two of this story. Until then, have a nice time.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, Visit.

[Ad Voice]

Our website, coolzonemedia.com or check us out.

[Robert]

On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or.

[Ad Voice]

Wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the Bastards is Now available on YouTube. New episodes every Wednesday and Friday.

[Padraig O'Rourke]

Subscribe to our channel YouTube.com behindthebastards.

[Ad Voice 2]

If a Lenovo gaming computer is on your holiday list, don't shop around. Just go directly to the source Lenovo.com it's your last chance to score exclusive deals on the gaming PCs you want, like the Lenovo Legion Tower 5 Gen 10 gaming desktop and Lenovo Lock Gaming Laptop. So avoid all that shopping chaos and price comparing and just go directly to the source lenovo.com where PCs are up to 35% off. That's lenovo.com lenovo Lenovo.

[Ad Voice]

New School year, new routines, and somehow your calendar is already full. When life gets hectic, cauliflower's got your back. We make the food you crave made better for you. Like thin and crispy cauliflower crust pizzas, all natural chicken tenders and nostalgic pizza snacks ready in minutes in something the whole family can agree on. Caulifow is available in freezer aisles nationwide. Visit eatcolipower.com to find a store near you.

[Ad Voice 2]

This is an ad by BetterHelp. We've all had that epic rideshare experience. Halfway through, you're best friends and they know your aspirations to go find yourself in Portugal. It's human. We're all looking for someone to listen. But not everyone is equipped to help with over a decade of experience. BetterHelp matches you with the right therapist. See why they have a 4.9 rating out of 1.7 million client session reviews? Visit betterhelp.com for 10% off your first month.

[Ad Voice]

10 athletes will face the toughest job interview in fitness that will push past physical and mental breaking points. You are the fittest of the fit. Only one of you will leave here with an IFIT contract worth $250,000. This is where mindset comes in. Someone will be eliminated. Pressure is coming down.

[Robert]

Trainer Games on Prime Video, January 8th.

[Ad Voice]

Watch the trailer on trainergames.com this is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.