Part Three: Is Oprah Winfrey a Bastard?

Summary

Behind the Bastards – Part Three: Is Oprah Winfrey a Bastard? Release Date: January 21, 2025

Overview In this provocative episode of Behind the Bastards, hosts Robert Evans, Bridget Todd, Andrew T., and Holly Fry delve deep into the life and career of Oprah Winfrey. Moving beyond her celebrated status as a media mogul, the hosts critically examine the less-discussed and more controversial aspects of Oprah's journey, exploring how her rise to power intersected with moral panics, exploitation, and questionable ethical decisions.

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1. Introduction and Early Career

The episode begins with Robert Evans expressing his overwhelming efforts to encapsulate Oprah's life, admitting, "I have to start this episode with our wonderful guests... trying to fit everything in." The hosts set the stage for an in-depth exploration of Oprah's formative years and early career moves.

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2. College Years and Beauty Contests

Oprah's college years are marked by her participation in beauty contests, notably the "Misfire Prevention Contest." Robert Evans humorously critiques the contest's premise, stating, “We have to find the hottest person in order to represent not burning your family to death because you fell asleep with a lit cigarette in your mouth.” Oprah wins this contest, which the hosts suggest was a pivotal moment in her early public life.

A particularly notable moment is Bridget Todd's reflection on Oprah's noble intentions:

Bridget Todd [02:26]: "Robert. That is my mother."

This underscores the personal connections and influences shaping Oprah's path.

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3. Early Television Struggles

Oprah's transition into television is fraught with challenges. Initially hired as a journalist without adequate experience, she openly admits her shortcomings:

Oprah [18:17]: "I lied during my interview. I don't know how to do this job."

This candidness earns her the respect and support of her colleagues, highlighting her charisma and determination to climb the professional ladder despite obstacles.

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4. Move to Chicago and The Oprah Winfrey Show

In a strategic career move, Oprah relocates to Chicago to host AM Chicago, which swiftly becomes the top local talk show. Amanda Cullen notes in her thesis:

Amanda Cullen: "In 1984, Oprah moved to Chicago, which eventually led to her show becoming the number one talk show for 20 consecutive seasons."

Oprah's unique approach—blending personal vulnerability with targeted sensationalism—sets her apart from contemporaries like Jerry Springer and Phil Donahue. This blend is encapsulated by Robert Evans:

Robert Evans [38:30]: "Look at this crazy shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah."

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5. Oprah's Impact on Talk Shows: Authenticity and Controversy

Oprah revolutionizes the talk show genre by introducing a balance of personal storytelling and provocative topics. Her willingness to share her own struggles fosters a deep connection with her audience:

Robert Evans [38:34]: "Because anytime it starts to lean too much, Oprah will drop some sort of anecdote about her own background."

However, this authenticity is juxtaposed with her strategic use of sensational topics to boost ratings, leading to a complex legacy of both empowerment and exploitation.

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6. Controversial Content and Moral Panics

One of the most contentious aspects discussed is Oprah's role in the Satanic Panic of the late 1980s and early 1990s. The hosts argue that Oprah provided a platform for unfounded and dangerous conspiracy theories:

Robert Evans [65:52]: "Oprah is literally just doing the blood libel on daytime TV on the most popular talk show in the country."

They highlight her willingness to host guests who claimed involvement in satanic rituals, exacerbating societal fears and contributing to the spread of misinformation. This includes a critical examination of her coverage of the McMartin Preschool Satanic Abuse Scandal, where Oprah reinstated dubious claims despite a lack of convictions:

Robert Evans [72:07]: "Oprah is constantly following every twist and turn in this case breathlessly... relitigating the case on her show."

The hosts emphasize the harm caused by providing a platform for such unfounded allegations, drawing parallels to modern conspiracies like QAnon.

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7. Oprah's Business Ventures and Profiting from Her Platform

Oprah's business acumen is lauded, particularly her establishment of Harpo Productions, making her one of the few women to own a major production company. However, the hosts critique her commercial strategies, especially her partnerships with diet programs and endorsements:

Robert Evans [56:03]: "A lot of the money that comes in is as a result of diet advice. She has deals and gets millions from groups like Weight Watchers."

This duality showcases Oprah's ability to influence public behavior for both personal empowerment and profit, raising ethical questions about her impact on societal norms regarding body image and health.

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8. Conclusion: The Complex Legacy of Oprah Winfrey

The episode culminates in a nuanced portrayal of Oprah Winfrey. While acknowledging her significant contributions to media and her role in destigmatizing personal struggles, the hosts argue that her methods often bordered on exploitation and perpetuated harmful myths. Robert Evans encapsulates this duality:

Robert Evans [73:00]: "She is a once in a lifetime genius... but also, like, Oprah knew... some of this... was just trying to get eyeballs on the TV."

This complex legacy invites listeners to reassess Oprah's place in history—not just as a trailblazer for women and African Americans in media, but also as a figure whose influence had darker undertones that contributed to societal fears and misinformation.

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Notable Quotes

• Robert Evans [05:26]: "Record everything you've ever say in a single day... and you will be amazed at how much of like the load bearing fat pillars of your reality are things you absolutely believe without thinking that are not true."

• Bridget Todd [25:14]: "I just don't think you should have to apologize right now. I take that burden from you. I'm sorry for Robert, but he's innocent."

• Robert Evans [43:16]: "It's impossible to overstate what a massive moment this is for Brightside, both television as a medium and also for Oprah's career."

• Bridget Todd [46:06]: "But first."

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Insights and Analysis

The hosts provide a balanced yet critical analysis of Oprah's career trajectory, highlighting the intersection of personal authenticity and commercial exploitation. They argue that while Oprah empowered many by sharing her personal struggles, she also leveraged sensationalism to maintain and grow her influence, sometimes at the expense of truth and ethical responsibility.

The discussion on the Satanic Panic underscores the potential dangers of influential media figures endorsing unfounded conspiracy theories, drawing parallels to contemporary issues of misinformation. Furthermore, Oprah's business strategies, particularly her alignment with diet and wellness industries, reveal a complex interplay between personal brand building and profitable partnerships that may perpetuate unhealthy societal standards.

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Conclusion

Behind the Bastards presents a compelling and critical examination of Oprah Winfrey, challenging the listener to reconsider her legacy beyond the public adulation. By dissecting her rise to power, controversial decisions, and the broader societal impacts of her work, the podcast offers a nuanced perspective on one of the most influential figures in modern media.

For those unfamiliar with Oprah's more contentious moments, this episode provides a thorough and engaging exploration that combines historical analysis with incisive critique, encouraging a deeper understanding of her multifaceted legacy.

Transcript

[Robert Evans]

Welcome back to behind the Bastards.

[Bridget Todd]

We're on page 18 of 52.

[Robert Evans]

I know a podcast where Robert Evans accidentally wrote 20, almost 24,000 words about Oprah. For this. These episodes, the normal length of a book is 50,000 words. So half of a book about fucking Oprah. And like, I was having panic attacks at the end of this of like, oh, my God, I'm leaving so much out. I'm leaving so much from, like, this really good book, Age of Oprah out. Cause, like, I just don't even know how to, like, fit everything in. But I have to start this episode with our wonderful guests, the inimitable Bridget Todd and the glorious, sainted. I don't know, Andrew T. I'm trying to think of new adjectives to.

[Andrew T.]

What do you have to do to become a saint?

[Robert Evans]

What's a saint? I think you actually have to die. No, you don't. No, you don't. I think you don't have to die.

[Andrew T.]

I'm down.

[Robert Evans]

You're probably.

[Andrew T.]

Okay, just let me know. I'm down.

[Robert Evans]

Bridget, you could also be a saint, but I'm not. I just don't get major Catholic vibes from you.

[Holly Fry]

Oh, I actually did go to Catholic school.

[Robert Evans]

Oh, you did? Well, shit. Okay, I'm gonna redirect the habit that I've got headed for Andrew, and it's gonna go to you, Andrew. Sorry, you're not sainted anymore.

[Bridget Todd]

You have to, you know, live virtuously. You have to die for the faith. So, like, you have to martyr, perform miracles.

[Robert Evans]

He's performed a miracle. I don't know. I don't know if all of these are required at once. And I think there's everyone who's made it on time for behind the Bastards recordings and sat through a whole episode as a guest, has performed a miracle. I stand by that.

[Bridget Todd]

I wouldn't say has been a martyr, but yeah.

[Andrew T.]

My most miraculous thing since we're doing video, as I'm holding up my favorite coffee cup.

[Robert Evans]

Wow, I love that.

[Holly Fry]

By chance, buy that in Maryland, did you? That's giving me big Maryland vibes.

[Andrew T.]

I'm sure it's from Maryland. Maine.

[Holly Fry]

Oh, they have. They do crabs out there too.

[Andrew T.]

No, not good. Oh, I can't imagine making lobster.

[Holly Fry]

I'm getting my crustaceans.

[Andrew T.]

So hardcore lobster territory. I don't know if lobsters and crabs fight. Sorry for. We're already over. The whole discussion has been how long this is going to be. And I just am try to figure out if there's crabs in Maine.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, listen, there's for sure. Crabs in Maine. They've got lobster at McDonald's in Maine.

[Andrew T.]

But that's my whole point.

[Bridget Todd]

Part three seems normal.

[Robert Evans]

Part four is there's no logic to the number of parts. This may wind up more episodes than we thought. I have to start with something which is amia culpa. I made some mistakes in the last episodes, guys.

[Bridget Todd]

Tell us, tell us.

[Robert Evans]

And I'm so, so sorry. I'm so, so sorry. So here's the thing. When you're doing a podcast like this, it's a mix of you do a bunch of research and you write a bunch of things to get a bunch of facts out that are as accurate as you can, but you're also having a conversation. So you do stuff like, oh, I'm bringing up the biblical story of Ruth. I don't know much about Ruth. I only included it in the episode to make a bad joke about Star the Phantom Menace. And so I made a comment about, I don't know. I think she's got something to do with Moses. She does not. And all of the Bible people got onto me for that one. And I'm sorry, how big a part.

[Andrew T.]

Of your audience is the Bible people?

[Robert Evans]

A shockingly large number of. Well, I think it's because we have a lot of, like, exvangelicals in the audience. Like, a lot of people who were raised evangelical and then got better.

[Andrew T.]

I'm just gonna throw this out there. That wasn't an error. That was a fucking dork trap. And they all fell into it.

[Robert Evans]

They all fell. The same, cannot be said, heinous and unforgivable comments about the March of Dimes. Because I made a comment that, like, I don't know. I guess it's probably a cancer charity. And then a bunch of people popped in, be like, no, it's for this. And then other people were like, actually, when Oprah was a kid, it didn't do that. It was for a completely different thing. So we're all wrong. Although, again, it had nothing to do with cancer. So I was wrongest. But, like, you guys were wrong, too. Most of you who criticized me, because it wasn't about that then. So fuck you. I love you. I'm sorry.

[Andrew T.]

What is it for?

[Robert Evans]

It's. It's. Right now. I think it's for, like, let's look. Let's look up the March of Dimes. Let's. Let's get it right.

[Holly Fry]

Immature babies.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, immature babies. But it was, like, about polio before that, and I think spina bifida trying to Correct.

[Bridget Todd]

Robert. That is my mother.

[Robert Evans]

Improve the health of mothers and babies. Right. I'll just throw this out there. Robert.

[Bridget Todd]

Robert is never wrong.

[Robert Evans]

He's perfect. Yeah, I never like, see stuff during like, one of the things you learn about yourself during doing this is like how often in daily conversation and we all do this. You just like say things that are a part of your understanding of the world that are not right. Because that's like life. We all pick up a bunch of bullshit like the number of times.

[Bridget Todd]

I just don't think you should have to apologize right now. I take that burden from you. I'm sorry for Robert, but he's innocent.

[Robert Evans]

All I'm saying is record everything you've ever you ever say in a single day of conversations with people and then run them by a fact checker. And you will be amazed at how much of like the load bearing fat pillars of your reality are things you absolutely believe without thinking that are not true. It's amazing.

[Holly Fry]

It's the worst part of being a podcaster is like having a public record of stupid shit that you thought or if you're me, shit that you thought was pronounced one way and it's pronounced.

[Robert Evans]

Another way, the pronunciation. So for this episode, I spent almost three hours looking at Oprah's one of her charities tax returns. None of that made it into the episode. Turned out not to be interesting. But you know what I didn't remember to do was look up whether or not Ruth had anything to fucking do with Moses.

[Andrew T.]

I just don't.

[Bridget Todd]

I think you just, you're, you're doing great, pal.

[Andrew T.]

I fail to see how this is a problem. I think you're doing great also. I just wanted to jump in March of Dimes, previous polio charity. The way things are going, they might need to go back.

[Robert Evans]

I know. That's that again, I love polio and I feel like because we got a lot of my favorite writers here.

[Bridget Todd]

Once again, Robert wrote 52 pages.

[Robert Evans]

Okay, let's get into this.

[Jon Stewart]

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[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Hey, listeners, I'm Lauren Brie Pacheco, host of the Murder on Songbird Road podcast. And I'm excited to share this riveting story with you. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Murder on Songbird Road 100% ad free and one week early through the I Heart True Crime plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts Plus. You'll get access to other chart topping true crime shows you love, like Betrayal, the Girlfriends, Paper Ghosts, Murder Homes, Unrestorable, the Godmother, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for I Heart True Crime plus and subscribe today. Welcome to the Criminalia Podcast. I'm Maria Tremorki.

[Holly Fry]

And I'm Holly Fry. Together we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Each season we explore a new theme. From poisoners to art thieves, we uncover.

[Holly Fry]

The secrets of history's most interesting figures, from legal injustices to body snatching.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

And tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in cocktails and mocktails inspired by each story.

[Holly Fry]

Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Robert Evans]

It was big news. I mean, white girl gets murdered, found in a cemetery. Big, big news.

[Bridget Todd]

A long investigation stalls until someone changes their story.

[Holly Fry]

I like saw a whole thing that happened.

[Bridget Todd]

An arrest, trial and conviction soon follow.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

He did not kill her.

[Bridget Todd]

There's no way is the real killer rightly behind bars or still walking free. Did you kill her? Listen to the Real Killer Season 3 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Robert Evans]

So when we left off, Oprah had gotten her first radio gig with a radio DJ who was surprisingly not problematic. John Heidelberg. People online have been pointing out other stuff about him apparently. Fine. So congratulations, John Heidelberg. When we're talking about DJs being problematic, I'm talking about old timey radio DJs. Because if you look into the history of like very famous old timey radio DJs, not a lot of them were great people, but apparently John was so good for you. John Heidelberg, you win our behind the Bastards award for not being a sex best as a DJ in the 1970s. You're the only person who's won that award, by the way.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah, that's gotta be a club of one.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, that is a club of. You are the loneliest man in history. So the next several years of Oprah's life involved a pretty boring time in college. We're not going to get into it, but she starts doing beauty contests. And she's very good at beauty contests. One of the biggest moments in her early life is she wins the misfire prevention contest. Now, I know what you're all saying. What the fuck is misfire prevention? And to understand this, you have to know that back in the 1970s, everything was flammable. People only wore petroleum products, Every couch was made out of petroleum products, and everyone fell asleep with a lit cigarette in their mouth. So everything and everyone was constantly on fire. Yeah. So this was a real problem. Also, everyone was on benzos. So you would. It was like every week in your neighborhood, either a drunk, day labor, like, either. Either the husband would come home from, like, his work in a fucking law factory and pass out drunk cigarette in his mouth and wipe out the entire family, or the housewife would take too many benzos and pass out with a lit cigarette in her mouth and wipe out the whole family. But either whatever was happening, fire was killing absolutely everyone. And so we were like, we have to find the hottest person in order to represent not burning your family to death because you fell asleep with a lit cigarette in your mouth. And Oprah was that person. Isn't that nice?

[Holly Fry]

Ooh, Fun fact about that. That's why we have, like, flame retardant couches now, is because the cigarette industry was like, we can't keep getting popped for this personal.

[Robert Evans]

We're fine with killing people so many other ways, but all these house fires are really cutting into our business.

[Andrew T.]

Please tell me the first fire retarded couches were just made of asbestos.

[Robert Evans]

It probably. God, I could go for a nice asbestos couch to know that I'm both, like, sitting down on the couch to watch horrible news happen and also shortening my time on this earth. Beautiful. Oprah was the first black woman to win the misfire prevention contest. And that's great. During questioning by a panel of judges, she said that she wanted to be a journalist like Barbara Walter. She was asked what she would do if she was given a million dollars. And everyone else in the contest expressed kind of like, I'll help the poor. I'll help my family. Whereas Oprah just admitted, I would spend, spend, spend. I'd just be a spending fool.

[Holly Fry]

Awesome. Actually love that.

[Robert Evans]

You gotta respect that. Like, look, I grew up poor as shit. I would spend it now. This was definitely a legitimate win. Misfire prevention. However, her next big contest win, the Ms. Black Nashville contest, little bit shadier. Everyone involved about it seems to agree that another girl, Maude, had been a better contestant. But Oprah shocked everyone by winning. And the promoter of the event would later claim that several people Complained to him. And so he did a recount of the votes and found out that Maude had, in fact, been the rightful winner, but her name had gotten switched with Oprah's by somebody for unknown reasons. Now we don't know what happened. Some people have theorized Oprah set the whole thing up somehow. I think there's at least an equally good probability based on just, like, the vibes I get that the promoter of the event kind of had a weird thing for Oprah. His name was Gordon El Greco Brown. And I don't trust that name. I just don't trust that name like, that. That is the name of, like, a used car dealer from fucking Encina who also happens to be a neo Nazi. I'm not saying that's Gordon El Greco Brown. I'm just. That's the name. Gordon L. That's what that conjures.

[Andrew T.]

Gordon L. Like the letter.

[Robert Evans]

El Greco Brown.

[Andrew T.]

El Greco Brown. So he's Gordon Gekko L. Brown.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. Yeah, he. That. That man has so many different opinions on the various coke dealers in his area that he has to keep track of them in a notebook. Anyway, when Oprah was notified. I'm not saying that about the literal. I'm not slandering the actual man. I'm just saying that's how his name sounds. Anyway, Oprah gets notified of this error that Maude really won, and she says, like, well, fuck it. You guys gave me the award. I'm not giving it back. In Kitty Kelly's kind of mean biography, a lot is made about the fact that Oprah, like, doesn't give this up. And I don't know. I don't really care. Like, you handed her the award. So she's not wrong to be like, fuck you guys. Oprah goes to Tennessee State University, or tsu, which is a black college, but she doesn't go to the more prestigious and nearby Fisk University, known locally as the Black Harvard. I think this is just a matter of expense. Oprah seems to be insecure about this. Later, she spends her social time hanging out at Fisk. Her dad is like, look, you know, I could afford to send her to tsu. And so I did, I will say, because Kitty Kelly makes a lot about, like, yeah, Oprah couldn't get into the good school. She couldn't hack it. I've read anecdote, like, from the anecdotes we get about tsu. It doesn't sound great. There's a good one from one of her professors, Dr. W.D. cox. That. And this is what this guy, Dr. Cox, this actual professor, says later about teaching Oprah, and I think he thinks this makes him sound funny. During our stay in the city, a girl was reported raped on the second floor. I told a lie on Oprah. If Oprah had known about the rape, she'd have shouted, yoo hoo, I'm up here. Oprah didn't take too kindly to that joke. She was quite provoked. Do you guys catch that? He is saying, a girl got raped. And I said, hey, Oprah, you would like that. That's the talking about this, decades later being like, can you believe she didn't find it funny? That's nuts. That's insane.

[Bridget Todd]

You just know somebody laughed at him, though, and he encouraged that shit.

[Robert Evans]

Maybe. Or the whole, like, I don't know what things were like in the 70s.

[Bridget Todd]

Don't laugh at men's jokes that aren't funny. Just don't.

[Robert Evans]

You should get fired for that. Period. Period. Yeah, the whole joke is. I bet you'd, like, get like, that's.

[Andrew T.]

Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

Wild stuff.

[Holly Fry]

And it's wild to me that he, like, even in retelling that, he's like. And she didn't even find it funny.

[Robert Evans]

She wasn't amused.

[Holly Fry]

Can you believe it?

[Robert Evans]

He describes it as enjoying a little foolishness at Oprah's expense. Oh, he still going, that's not what that is. A little foolishness would be like, you know, talking about, I don't know, the fact that she's obviously wants to be a star, making a little bit of joke about how she likes attention. Not that like that. This is not that, like.

[Andrew T.]

And this dude has been holding onto that joke for.

[Robert Evans]

Presumably until Kitty Kelly in 2010.

[Andrew T.]

The decades. Literal decades.

[Robert Evans]

Jesus Christ. Oh, man. You just know, like, just. I'm guessing based on his age that, like, she goes to see him in an old photo and, like, his fucking kids come in, they're like, oh, no, get her out of here. We can't let dad be talking to a journalist. Like, oh, my God. So Oprah, the big standout detail from her college years is she plays Coretta Scott King in a local production of the Tragedy of Martin Luther King Jr. And the main reason this is relevant is that a reviewer for the school paper reviews this play by saying, martin Luther King murdered twice. I do love how bitchy that is. That's good.

[Holly Fry]

Like, holy shit.

[Robert Evans]

Imagine. Cause he had to have sat with that review title, just being like, I can't say this, can I? Can I?

[Holly Fry]

I'm so glad he went for it.

[Robert Evans]

Fuck it. I'm Doing it. Near the end of 1972, Oprah gets her first TV gig when her boss at WVOL called a local TV station, WTVF TV, and told them that he had a girl who was interested in broadcasting. This was during a period where the FCC had just introduced diversity requirements for on air talent, and Oprah was hired quickly. She generally describes this as an affirmative action hire. Again, the guy who hires her is like, no, she was the best qualified candidate. You know, I don't know. Either way, it doesn't really matter because this proves to be a very good hiring decision. The truth? Oprah was a skilled performer and had experience both on the radio and as a pageant winner. That said, she was hired to be a journalist, which she had no experience doing, and she winds up reporting on City Hall. She cheerfully admitted as soon as she starts the job, she tells all her co workers, I lied during my interview. I don't know how to do this job. Like, her first day, she tells the crew, I don't know what I'm doing. Please help me. Because, like I told the director, I understood how to do this job. And it's a remark. It's a mark of her charisma that everyone on the crew's like, well, yeah, okay, that's kind of nice.

[Andrew T.]

That is like, what a. It's not even a Hail Mary, but what do you like high variance. Play the. Hey, by the way, what's up? How do you do this job?

[Robert Evans]

I mean, that is how, like, entertainment works, right? Like, everyone I know in this industry has a story of, like, yeah, I talked myself into a room that I probably didn't have the right to be in, and then it worked out.

[Andrew T.]

Yes. The B side of admitting it, I would say a lot less.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. One of the. Again, we're about to get into all of the horrible things Oprah's been involved in, but one thing that I do consistently admire about her is that she doesn't dress up this aspect of her life. She's like, yeah, man, I lied, cheated, and stole until I could be on tv.

[Holly Fry]

You know, I mean, I think she's.

[Robert Evans]

Everyone who gets famous on dv, right?

[Andrew T.]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

I got my first podcast job lying about knowing Final Cut Pro. And then I had to, like, go on YouTube and learn how to use Final Cut Pro.

[Robert Evans]

Yes, that's how. Look, kids, if you're looking at getting entertained into entertainment, get good at lying, because that's the job. Oprah experienced a ton. This is a uncomfortable transition, but a lot of racism on the job. A large Part of it was like, she's the first black on air talent that they have. She winds up interviewing a lot of people who like, they see a black journalist and just start calling her slurs to her face. She won awards, though. She's very ambitious. Her colleagues, that's the primary thing her colleagues from this period remember about her is that Oprah is a climber. She is somebody who is like, crawling up to the top, right? At one point, she takes over for a producer who, like, she gets on set, he's clearly doesn't know what he's doing for this Black History Week presentation. And she directs the entire segment herself. She is also, by everyone's admission, doing hella drugs during this period, although everyone at the TV station is doing hella drugs. This is a local TV station in the 70s. I want to read a paragraph from the book, a biography based on a conversation with her former colleague Patty Outlaw. It was just nuts working at that station. Drugs, drugs, drugs all the time. Drugs all over the place. They were even selling window panes of LSD in the hall. Drugs were so prevalent that the new staff gave Vic Mason, Oprah's co anchor, a coke spoon as a gift. Chris and I look the other way, said Jimmy Norton, who confirmed that station management removed a vending machine once they discovered it had been rigged to dispense marijuana. That sounds pretty cool. Oh, my God.

[Andrew T.]

This was in Chicago. Where was this?

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. No, no, no, they're not even in. I think they're in. Yeah, they're in Nashville still.

[Andrew T.]

Nashville.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, they're in Nashville still. She does move up to the big leagues pretty quickly, but she doesn't go straight to Chicago. After a few years in Nashville, she gets a job in Baltimore. She's not really happy there, even though this is a big step up. Baltimore obviously being a bigger city because she feels like she's on a ticking timer, right? But like, by the time her attitude is, like, by the time I'm 24, I have to be where I want to be because then I'm like too old and washed up. Which, you know, that's the. That's the way a lot of people feel. That's the way TV is for a lot of women, unfortunately. But, like, it's certainly not going to be that way for Oprah. Baltimore turns out to be a disaster, though the longtime anchorman for the station who she has made to be like, the co anchor hates her and she's not really experienced enough. Like, he's been doing it for decades. She doesn't really know what she's doing yet. So she very quickly gets demoted, but she's still on contract. So it's one of those things where she's getting a lot of money, but she's basically not doing the job that she got hired to do. She's instead getting all these terrible little human interest stories that she considers beneath her. So this is a frustrating period. But her saving grace is always her ambition. During that denied advancement at the station, she starts performing at churches, schools, and different black community spaces, building a fan base locally the hard way. She also has a series of interracial relationships while she is working at the station, which is noteworthy because that is not a common thing at the time. And the fact that she is dating white guys in her personal life becomes public news. A bunch of local white radio DJs make it like a report, a reoccurring thing that they talk about on the air, like who Oprah is dating. I don't just bring that up to be like, wow. It's like, no, no, no. This is like she has to deal with this being part of, like, local news.

[Holly Fry]

Can I say something? Because I do think it highlights how unequal the playing fields are for black women in media. I mean, black women across the spectrum of any profession, but like local radio DJs, so people who ostensibly are also colleagues or also in media, making it a joke segment about who is dating romantically, privately like that, having to contend with that on top of having to do your job with all these eyes on you. I mean, like, it's completely ridiculous.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, yeah. Like it's, it's nuts. And like, for an example of how fucking insane it is, one of These local radio DJs describes she's dating like a Jewish reporter, right, who works at a competing station. One of these guys on the radio describes their relationship as Omar Sharif is dating Aunt Jemima.

[Holly Fry]

Jesus.

[Robert Evans]

Jesus Christ. Oh, boy. You should just explode when you say something like that. So she had always been something of a binge eater, largely as a response to stress. And as is probably not surprising, the stress of being in the public eye and having all of this shit about you be public discussion causes that to be even more of a problem. In 1977, she starts paying a diet doctor to help her drop weight for the first time. And she starts attending ovary anonymous courses. A mixture of stress and starving herself causes her hair to fall out. Or at least that's one story. Oprah later is going to insist that she lost her hair because executives at the station demanded that she go to New York for a French hairdresser to, quote, make me a Puerto Rican by bleaching her skin and changing her hair. I don't know the like, because you get these two different versions of how she loses her hair. It's very hard to say what the truth is. The news producer is like, the company didn't have the budget to send her to New York. She also claims that the former news director tries to get her to change her name to Susie. He denies this. I don't know. It's all a little muddled. It doesn't. I don't know how much, like, where the truth lies here. Super matters. Right. There's definitely some stuff that she's, like, exaggerating, but she's also, like, literally, people are talking about her relationships on the air in a very racist way. So, like, I don't know. I. I feel like you get the general gist, which is that she is in an incredibly stressful and unfair situation here at work. Yeah, yeah.

[Andrew T.]

The public record is. Even if she's straight up lying about literally everything, that is hearsay. Who cares?

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, right, right. That's kind of where I land on this. That said, I will say the station allows her to work her way. She is not locked out of moving back up, and she works her way back up to reporting the news over the next couple of years in Baltimore. And in fact, she rebuilds her reputation with her bosses well enough that in 1977, the new station manager, William Baker, gives her the big break that is going to lead her to the position of kind of impossible wealth and cultural power that she's going to attain. He had been brought on to the station after creating in another station a morning talk show called Morning Exchange. And his job was to do the same thing for Baltimore. Right. Morning shows are a new concept. Like, this is. This is the guy playing a video game while ranting about politics on a stream of 1977 is like people waking up in the morning to see one to two charming, handsome people talk about bullshit while you, like, get the kids breakfasts ready. Right. It's the hottest new thing in entertainment. Phil Donahue had kind of helped to kick off the trend of, like, talk shows in 1968. And his show, which was just named Donahue, had become, like, the most popular thing on television. Morning shows were a refinement of this idea, Right? You generally have a male host and a female co host, and this is how you lock in viewers who are either getting ready for work or, like, stay at home, moms starting their day. Baker's wife, Jeanne Marie, was the one who recommended Oprah to be the female co host of this new morning show. Apparently at some sort of like, work event, she sees Winfrey and she says to her husband, that's your host. And Baker listens to his wife, which proves to be a wise decision because for whatever. I mean, there's a number of reasons, but tens of millions of American women feel the exact same way that the first time they see Oprah, like, oh, yeah, this is somebody I want to watch every morning. Right. So Jean Marie was definitely keyed into something there. Oprah does not like that she's been picked for this job. She's horrified at first, actually, because in her attitude, she sees this as another demotion. Right. She had been a co anchor and then kicked down to doing these, like, human interest kind of like, oh, you know, there's a new, you know, it's the kind of stuff they make fun of at anchorman, right? There's like a new puppy parade or some bullshit. And she's like, that's this, this is like fluff. I want to be doing, like, I think that the. I want to be Barbara Walters. I want to be doing something more hard nosed. Part of what disgusts her is that a big thing on this morning show is dialing for dollars, which is a way that news stations would keep because you don't want anyone to switch to another channel if they get bored for a second. So you have this thing where periodically throughout the day, people submit their phone numbers to the station and we randomly. Oprah draws one out of a bowl and the station will just send money to that person. Yeah, that's how they. And you have to be watching constantly to know if your number gets picked. Like, that's literally how they. They're like bribing people. Please keep watching the show.

[Andrew T.]

I mean, gambling has never not been the underlying driver of everything.

[Robert Evans]

All of American society. Yes, yes, yes. This whole country's one big roulette wheel. And Oprah didn't want to be the croupier. It's a croupier for roulette. Is that how you say it?

[Andrew T.]

It is.

[Holly Fry]

You're about to get another people being like, actually, you said it wrong, Robert. It's this.

[Robert Evans]

I'm sorry. All of the people who would correct me on that will die if they spend more than 11 seconds away from a slot machine. Those are life support systems for a chunk of the populace.

[Andrew T.]

Kratz is a croupier. I think roulette is also a croupier, but I don't know.

[Robert Evans]

I think I got it. I don't know. I don't care. I like the word croupier. Speaking of gambling, gamble on whether or not these products actually do what they say they are. They do, probably. This podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp. It's a new year and we are all asking ourselves versions of the same question. What do I want my 2025 story to be? Every January brings you 365 blank pages just waiting to be filled in 2025. Maybe you're ready for a plot twist. Or maybe there' a part of your story that you've been wanting to revise. Life isn't about resolutions that fade by February. It's about becoming the author of your own life. You can think of therapy as an editorial partner, helping you write new chapters and create the meaningful story you deserve to live. And if you're considering therapy, you might consider giving better help a try. BetterHelp is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient, serving over 5 million people worldwide. You can access a diverse network of more than 30,000 credentialed therapists with a wide range of specialties, and you can easily switch switch therapists anytime at no additional cost. So write your story with better help. Visit betterhelp.com behind to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp H-E-L-P.com behind hey listeners, I'm.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Lauren Bright Pacheco, host of the Murder on Songbird Road podcast. Murder on Songbird Road revisits a controversial 2020 murder that occurred in southern Illinois. It divided a community and pitted families against one another, but questions remain as to whether the mother of four serving time for the crime is actually guilty. I'm excited to tell you that you can get access to all episodes of Murder on Songbird Road 100% ad free and one week before anyone else with an iHeart True Crime plus subscription. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for IHEART True Crime plus and subscribe Today, Jon.

[Jon Stewart]

Stewart is back in the host chair at the Daily show, which means he's also back in our ears on the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. The Daily Show Podcast has everything you need to stay on top of today's news and pop culture. You get hilarious satirical takes on entertainment, politics, sports and more from John and the team of correspondents and contributors. The podcast also has content you can't get anywhere else else, like extended interviews and a roundup of the weekly headlines Listen to the Daily Show Ears edition on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Robert Evans]

It was big news. I mean, white girl gets murdered, found in a cemetery. Big, big news.

[Bridget Todd]

When a young woman is murdered, a desperate search for answers takes investigators to some unexpected places, places he believed it could be part of a satanic cult.

[Robert Evans]

I think there were many individuals present.

[Andrew T.]

I don't know who pulled the trigger.

[Bridget Todd]

A long investigation stalls until someone changes their story.

[Holly Fry]

I, like, saw whole thing that happened.

[Bridget Todd]

An arrest, trial, and conviction soon follow.

[Robert Evans]

He just saw his body just kind of collapsing.

[Bridget Todd]

Two decades later, a new team of lawyers says their client is innocent.

[Robert Evans]

He did not kill her.

[Bridget Todd]

There's no way is the real killer rightly behind bars or still walking free. Are you capable of murder?

[Andrew T.]

I definitely am not.

[Bridget Todd]

Did you kill her? Listen to the real Killer, Season 3 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Robert Evans]

And we're back. So Oprah's got this job offer to host this morning show, and she's like, this sounds like death, right? This sounds like the end of my career. Like, you're trying to fob me off on this thing. And I will be locked into this, you know, doing something nobody respects for the rest of my life. The thing that she tells Baker is, I'm a news person. I don't want to do a talk show. Then she films her first episode, and her mind completely changed. The way she describes this is as soon as she sits down and makes an episode of the morning show, her opinion on it changes on a dime. And the reason why is because she gets to hang out with famous people. And she's like, oh, wait, oh. And I'm gonna read a quote now from the People Profiles biography of Oprah. This, she told herself, is heaven. She recalled, I interviewed Benny from All My Children and the Carvel Ice Cream man and thought, heaven, because you get to say whatever you feel. You truly get to be yourself. Within a year, people are talking, which is the morning show was beating Donahue in Baltimore, the only show in America. So Winfrey would never read another headline. The minute that first show was over, she told Good Housekeeping, I thought, thank God I found what I was meant to do. It was, like breathing for me. And that's, like, very interesting to me because it's hard to get across like Donahue is. He's like the Mr. Beast of his era, if you'll forgive me for trying to, like, make. He is, like, the biggest guy on daytime tv. And Oprah is the like. This is the only local show that beats Donahue anywhere in the United States. And it's due to the fact that Oprah is on it, right? And she has this absolutely unique, electric connection with her audience. This is recognized by people with money and television. And things start to move very fast for Oprah after this point. As Pell scholar Amanda Cullen writes in her thesis paper on Oprah's role in American culture, in 1984, Oprah moved to Chicago, Illinois to host WLS TV's morning talk show AM Chicago, which became the number one local talk show, surpassing ratings for the most popular show at the time. Donahue, just one month after she began the show, earned national syndication in 1986, becoming the highest rated talk show in television history. In 1988, Oprah established Harpo Oprah Backwards Studios, a production facility in Chicago, making her the third woman in the. In the American entertainment industry after Mary Pickford and Lucille Ball, to own her own studio. AM Chicago became the Oprah Winfrey show and remained the number one talk show for 20 consecutive seasons. So this is like a very rapid explosion in popularity. She goes from getting the show to it becoming number one, to it being entirely reframed, to being just around Oprah. And she establishes a production company and gets like a significant degree of ownership in her own show, which is like, this is one of the things that's most interesting about Oprah is, especially for somebody who was raised without any access to money, the sheer degree of, like, business savvy that she has, the fact that she owns a large piece of everything she's involved in and eventually owns all of it, right? Like, she is not like she, she, she kind of has this probably because of how she got fucked over with that first job, this understanding that, like, if I don't own it, it's not worth shit me, right? Anyway, Oprah.

[Holly Fry]

So I just realized something crazy, which is that Oprah, the character that Oprah plays in the Color Purple, she's married to a character named Harpo.

[Robert Evans]

Really?

[Holly Fry]

It's like, isn't that crazy?

[Robert Evans]

I had no idea. Wait a second. Because I started rewatching it, but I'm gonna be honest, I didn't finish it because I was tired. Harpo is his name.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah, she's married to a character named Harpo in the movie. That's why I just realized that it's also the name of her. It's also her name backward.

[Andrew T.]

Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

Uh huh. Yeah. Crazy. I wonder. That has to have been because she already had Harpo the studio at that point. We're gonna talk a little bit about the Color Purple and Steven Spielberg comes in. I don't know if he's a hero. Well, he's not a hero. He's a weird kind of villain in this story. But we'll get to that in a sec.

[Holly Fry]

I can't wait.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. So for about a full generation after 1984, Oprah's fame is a rocket ship. It just keeps going up and up, up. But what made her show so special, Colon's argument is that she offered, quote, despair disguised as entertainment. In other words, she sensationalized and repackaged human suffering for an audience. Quote. When Oprah came on the scene, she mirrored this Donahue formula, but with a unique twist of her own. She, unlike Donahue, revealed her own personal struggles and stressed a self help mantra. The audience loved it. And the Oprah Winfrey show quickly surpassed her predecessor's ratings. Commonly referred to as trash tv. Oprah transformed the talk show genre by turning trash into treasure. And that's kind of. She starts out, and she is viewed as, like, trash. She's viewed as Jerry Springer. Right. For a while, because she's doing that stuff. She's bringing on, like, I'm gonna bring on a bunch of single, unread mothers who are fighting with their dads. I'm gonna bring on, like, some Klansmen to have an argument with, like, you know, whoever on stage and like, hope that there's a fist fight or some shit. She's doing pieces of that. That. But kind of what shifts the meaning of what she's doing is that unlike a Springer or a Donahue kind of character, she's not standing back and being like, look at this zoo I've brought to you. She's like, opening up her own difficult, troubled past, which kind of adds this, this, like, shot of vulnerability into the whole mixture that makes it unique. And you can see an immediate. That's why it stands out, right? That's why she rises above these other figures so quickly.

[Andrew T.]

Right? The most significant Springer and Donahue, you never got the impression their point of view was like, look at this shit.

[Robert Evans]

Look at this crazy shit. Yeah, yeah.

[Andrew T.]

As opposed to, like, I have an opinion on this crazy shit.

[Robert Evans]

Because I have an opinion. And also, like, like, you people, like all you troubled people that I bring on the show, I also have had my, like, troubles and I'm not too big to, like, admit them. Whereas, like, Jerry Springer would never, like, break down and cry in front of his audience. Right?

[Holly Fry]

Jerry's final thought oh, God, yeah, sure.

[Robert Evans]

Of course. The one thing I remember from that show is when Geraldo got his nose broken by a chair. I think that was on Jerry. Was that on Geraldo or Jerry? I thought it was Geraldo.

[Holly Fry]

I think it was. That might have been Geraldo.

[Robert Evans]

Is that just on Geraldo? Whatever the case, Geraldo Rivera got his nose broken by a chair. Everybody never forget.

[Holly Fry]

But I think your point about, like, this setting Oprah apart, I think it really is a testament to how her troubled background really is something that she draws from and is able to like. Like, that's. I think that is the secret sauce of what made this connect in a different way.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. Cause it's like we're taught it's the same kind of like, quote, unquote trash, but there's less of a voyeuristic attitude because, like, anytime it starts to lean too much, Oprah will drop some sort of anecdote about her own background. And you're like, okay, so she's really. She's on the same level as us. Right. Which she's not. But that's how it feels to the viewer, at least. The most significant moment for her career in this period came right after she moved to Chicago to start the Oprah Winfrey show. On Thursday, December 5, 1985, at 9:00am Oprah started her morning show by bringing on a young white abuse victim named Laurie. She opened up by reading some statistics about sexual abuse, namely that one in three women in the United States had experienced it, and then asked, laurie, your father started out fondling you. When did it lead to something other than fondling? She pressed with more and more detailed questions, asking, what did he say to you? How did he tell you? What did he tell you? And this is all very uncomfortable to see on tv, Right? And even, especially, like reading the transcript, it's. There's an element of it that seems a little bit exploitative, kind of constantly pushing for those details in front of an audience. That said, it also, this is kind of how interviews work. It's just usually when journalists interview people about these kind of experiences, you don't get the direct interview transcript. You get an article where they've kind of taken out the details, but also kind of softened aspects of it so that it doesn't feel that uncomfortable. Oprah's kind of giving you the raw feed. And seeing something like this, which is normally a private process rendered as public entertainment, is kind of a new thing. And particularly what's new about it is that because of the way Oprah does this Rather than people feeling like, oh, she's kind of exploiting this woman, people from the audience start to join in spontaneously sharing their own stories of sexual abuse as children. People in the audience start breaking down into tears. And then Oprah starts talking about her own sexual abuse, telling everyone, the fact that I had all these unfortunate experiences permeates my life. And I'm going to quote from Kitty Kelly's book here for the next few seconds. Oprah appeared to be discovering for the first time that what she had experienced as a 9 year old child was indeed rape. A defilement so unspeakable that she had never been able to put it into words until that very moment. Her audience felt as if they were watching the fissures of a soul split open as she admitted her shameful secret. And nothing like this had ever happened on daytime tv. There had certainly been like, people talking about sexual abuse. But the fact that an episode interviewing a survivor would lead to both members of the audience breaking down and sharing their own stories and then the host doing it, that's a totally novel thing, right? Like, that has never happened before on television. And it creates a firestorm. The fact that Oprah does this on air becomes national and then international news. And it is, people, like the people running the station are not happy. Like, the actual executives at the station are like, this is supposed to be a happy morning show. This is like, for people to like, watch while they're drinking. What the hell's going on here? Right? Like, why are we, why are we having stories of child sexual abuse? But the ratings are off the charts. It's one of those things where she both gets in trouble with the people running the station. And also this makes her too big to fail. Like, this is, it's impossible to overstate what a massive moment this is for brightness, both television as a medium and also for Oprah's career.

[Andrew T.]

Yeah, it's, I mean, it's, there's also just that. Yeah, like, what a, I guess, risk, or like, thank God the ratings worked out.

[Robert Evans]

It's a huge risk because, like, if the ratings had like her, her. The people running the station are not happy. If the ratings had not been there, like, she could have gotten fired for this. Yeah. And it's also, there's, it's such a complicated thing to parse out because one thing she's doing is this is one of the very first times in a public space with this much exposure that you have victims of rape talking about it. Not in a way that's mediated by psychiatrists or law enforcement or anything like that, but is just like survivors talking about it, right? And at the same time, Oprah very sees the reaction to this, sees how well it does. And her immediate takeaway is like, sex sells. We need all of the sex episodes, every kind of sex. Not just like this, where people are talking about, you know, their trauma, but, like, whatever we can get that involves sex. That's what's going to make this show. Keep it on top, right? So, like, after this episode, she starts invite. She invites a bunch of female porn stars on to talk about the penises of her co stars, of their co stars. That episode gets a 30% shift of the Chicago audience and provokes even more news articles about Oprah because people are now like, is this smut? Like, how do we talk about what she's doing? Nobody's done anything like this before. And a lot of the coverage is super critical, super, like, this is incredibly irresponsible. People shouldn't be doing this. But it all just drives viewers, right more. And the more stuff that she puts out there that. That gets people shocked and, like, angry or, you know, titillated, the more people watch her show. When reporters interview her about this, Oprah tells them, my mandate is to win. Admitting that her overriding purpose and bringing victims of sexual violence and sex workers onto her show is to draw eyeballs. Kitty Kelly quotes her former producer Deborah DeMaio paraphrasing the way Oprah pitched show ideas to her team. I'd love to get a priest to talk about sex. I'd love to get one to say, yes, I have a lover. I worship Jesus and her. Yes, I love her and her name is Carolyn.

[Holly Fry]

I love how, like, that's a life. Like, pretty twisted. Oprah was like, I want the, like, I want some freaky deakies in here.

[Robert Evans]

Find me a priest who's fucking some lady named Carolyn and get her on, get him on. Oh, man. So, yeah, that's like, I don't. You can, I guess, moralize that however you want. It's so fascinating that it goes from I have, like, shared my own horrible experience and people connected with that to like, so we got to get some priest who's fucking a lady on this show, right? Like, that's, that's where. That's where this guy has to continue going, you know, it is also weird to conclude.

[Andrew T.]

Not weird, but like, I mean, I guess like more media savvy than I am to conc. Conclude from that first show that sex sells rather than like, vulnerability cells or authenticity Cells or whatever.

[Robert Evans]

But also all of them sell because her vulnerability and authenticity keeps her. It's a huge part of her ongoing popularity. But so is the sex. So is the really sleazy stuff. They never stop doing that, right? I guess the answer is all of it sells. And Oprah has very good insight, you know, wherever we want to land morally on what she's doing here. This shit works. Now it is, it is worth noting that she is depicted in the media. This is very hard for. Like, I had trouble grasping this because by the time I was aware of Oprah, she had such a different, like, reputation. In the 80s, she, in late 70s and 80s, she's Jerry Springer, right? She is not a respectable media figure to a lot of people. That is not how she's talked about about to a lot of people around this time. An article in McCall's magazine on the Oprah Winfrey show described what it did best as, quote, get him in the gut. Show topics, sexual disorders, battered wives, self mutilation, overweight people and the people who hate them. You know, all that kind of stuff. Oprah often would say, nothing is taboo, and she meant it. Winfrey's own struggles with weight loss and gain quickly became a central part of the show as well. Well, we open this series with the infamous wagon of fat incident from 1980, 98. That was gross and bad, but it's also worth noting if you want to put that into the context, like how we could get to something that gross. It comes after a decade of constant public obsession with every pound Oprah lost or gained. And this is where we're going to talk about the Color Purple again. So as I've noted, Oprah struggles with, you know, binge eating with her body self image from adolescence on. Like a lot of us, like maybe everybody. She has a habit of stress eating and was noted by co workers to binge to really uncomfortable levels during parties and the like. Once she becomes a TV star in the mid-80s, people start talking about this like it becomes both in gossip columns and shit, like the fucking, you know, National Enquirer and stuff. There's like articles about, you know, stories of Oprah and eating and whatnot. And she kind of pivots on this to become radically open to her audience about her dieting and her struggles with weight gain gain. Now, this helps drive her popularity, but it's also, it both is in part a reaction to and also helps lead to shit like this 1985 appearance on the Tonight show with Joan Rivers, which I'm gonna play for you now. This is one of the most uncomfortable things I've seen on television.

[Holly Fry]

Oh, my God. Joan was such a bitch. I can't wait to see how mean this is.

[Robert Evans]

So bad.

[Holly Fry]

I mean, I like low key love her, but like, let's be real.

[Robert Evans]

Oh, yeah, yeah. This is not great. Great.

[G]

But you went into beauty contest. They told me you're a beauty contest winner. Yeah, £50 ago or so. Yeah, but. So what'd you win? Well, I won the Miss Fire Prevention contest. Was that a Who was Fire prevention? So how'd you gain the weight?

[Bridget Todd]

I ate a lot.

[Robert Evans]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[G]

You said £50. You shouldn't let that happen to you.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

You're very pretty.

[Holly Fry]

You know what?

[G]

No, I don't want to hear. Let me tell you this. Let me tell you something, pretty girl. And you're single. You must lose the weight. I'm going to. You know what? We are now a.m. chicago. In Chicago.

[Robert Evans]

We're.

[G]

We're starting a diet with Oprah. Grace. Yes. In conjunction with the Tribune. So that I have been put under pressure to finally do it. Now. I am trying to lose five pounds. When you come back with me in March. When I'm back and you lose 15, I'll lose five. Listen, that's the only way I'll do it. I'll keep thinking back here, and I'm not.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

I'm serious.

[G]

I'll do it if you do it.

[Robert Evans]

You will?

[G]

Yeah. It's a deal. It's a deal. It's a deal. £5 for me. Be great.

[Robert Evans]

Yes.

[G]

That's great. Great. That's great. I'm excited about it though, because I've gone up and down and up and I've been on every diet. Have you tried the Banana, Weenie and egg diet? Does anybody know Banana Weenie Neck where you eat a banana, a weenie, an egg, and I've done the pickles and peanut butter diet. Oh, I just eat cookies. But I only eat like 800 cookies calories with the cookies. Yeah, I figured you do it that way.

[Robert Evans]

Oh, yeah.

[G]

I saw Nell Carter on here last night. Who'd lost. Yes. But you couldn't tell. She's still very chubby. She has to lose more. Do you think you should lose more? Well, I think people go, oh, are not people that help friends at diet. You must tell a friend the truth. You must say, you are still a pig. Lose more weight.

[Robert Evans]

Okay. Wow. Why are eating disorders so rampant? Is it because these are our parrots? Effectively.

[Andrew T.]

God.

[Holly Fry]

Although I gotta say, though, like, that was not as vicious. It's just. That was not as bad as I thought it was gonna be.

[Bridget Todd]

Could have been so much worse than that.

[Holly Fry]

How people talk to bigger people. Like, people feel totally comfortable saying shit like this to people's faces, and they don't even think twice about it. This is, like, totally how people talk.

[Robert Evans]

Part of what you're seeing there is, like, Oprah being a professional, because when she describes this moment, she's like, yeah, I was not happy. The laughing and stuff was all faked. I was very unhappy that we were having this conversation. Right. Like, obviously. Yeah. No, it's like, I can't believe the kind of shit that Jen's saying there. It was made. Like, this whole situation was made worse at the time because, like, not long after this while she is, like, doing this very famous publicized diet that gets announced on the Joan Rivers Show. Like, the first big thing she does after this is she's sent to Ethiopia to report on Chicago's efforts to help the famine. So the story is simultaneously Oprah trying to lose 30 pounds and Oprah reporting on a famine in Ethiopia. Not great vibes. One of her colleagues asks, like, hey, is this kind of gross? And Oprah replies, you're right, it's sick, isn't it?

[Holly Fry]

It is sick.

[Robert Evans]

It is kind of sick. Now, one fair critique of these episodes is that we're not gonna go into super clinical detail about all of the different fad diets and dangerous weight loss misinformation that comes out of the Oprah Winfrey Show. Part of why is because the podcast maintenance phase has done a ton of that. So you can check all of that out. I think part of it is just that, like, you get the idea here, right? It's both important to note that, like, Oprah, like that. That clip there, there's a lot of pushing on everyone listening to that. Feel bad about your body. Be ashamed if you've gained weight. Embrace dangerous strategies to lose it. Oprah has a lot, and Oprah will admit it today, a lot of guilt and spreading that. But also, she is in such a unique position where, like, I don't know if there's ever been a single person that so many Americans have been so obsessed with their body size. Like, it's kind of hard not to. Not. Not for that to affect you in a bad way. Like, we. We really were uninsane about Oprah. Yeah, I don't know what else to say about that. I will say, in order to kind of point out the way in which people talked about her one of the most prominent TV critics of the day, Richard Blackwell described Oprah as bumpy, frumpy, and downright lumpy on the COVID of tv. God.

[Holly Fry]

Jesus.

[Robert Evans]

So right around the time this is all happening, Oprah is on the Tonight Show. Like, right around when she's on the Tonight show, she is auditioning for a role in the Color Purple after the episode where, again, this is not as friendly a situation as it appears on the air. She's very unhappy about this. She stress each. She gains more weight, and then she checks herself into a fat farm, an emergency weight loss boot camp type program, to lose the weight. Steven Spielberg, who had directed the movie, finds out and he calls Oprah and Spielberg says, I hear you're at a fat farm. You lose a pound, you could lose this part. She's like, she's fucked no matter what.

[Holly Fry]

I don't love anybody micromanaging somebody else's weight. But the Color Purple is based on a novel by Alice Walker and the character she was portraying. I, I get. It's not something I think he should have said, but I get where he's coming from.

[Robert Evans]

It's. It's. Yeah, I. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know where I should. Yeah, yeah. It's uncomfortable.

[Andrew T.]

Does Oprah talk about, like, like, not. Not like, to. Well, yeah, I, I mean, I guess what I'm about to say is going to sound victim blaming, but I'm just curious because part of the, like, this, like, like, attention to her weight, she. Even if it was, like, gonna happen anyway, she did profit from, like, it was like, part of the, like, editorial strategy of her show. Right. Like, does she talk about leaning in on that?

[Robert Evans]

She. She hugely leans in. Right? Like, she, she does. She does. She. In part, she makes the specifics of, like, how much she's gaining or how much she is losing and what diet she is doing. Doing part of the show. A lot of the money that comes in is as a result of diet advice. She has deals and gets millions and millions from groups like Weight Watchers, right? Pushing a lot of different diets. She gets paid and also just, like, fills air time and makes money that way. Putting on different diet experts and diet books and a lot of that stuff is extremely dangerous. It is both. She is being victimized by the whole media environment and also profiting on that by pushing the same kind poison on everyone else. Right? Like that. That's what's happening here. Right? Like, it is a story of both victimization and profiting off of putting Some pretty toxic. And Oprah, you know, the thing she's doing right now is at least copying to some of that. Right. Right now. Copying to some of that while also getting money from Weight Watchers. So I. I don't know where we want to put that out.

[Andrew T.]

The one thing I am curious about is when we as a culture made the transition from saying weenies to hot.

[Robert Evans]

Dogs, you wouldn't get a hot dog based diet today, which you should never have had a hot dog based diet.

[Bridget Todd]

Yeah, ask Jamie.

[Andrew T.]

I guess. I guess not.

[Holly Fry]

She would know.

[Robert Evans]

Jamie would know. She would know. Yeah. Anyway, so she gives up after. Or at least the way that Oprah tells the story after Spielberg's like, if you lose a pound, you could lose this part. Oprah decides, like, fuck it, and gives up on getting the role and keeps the role. And, yeah, she winds up doing very well. She gets, like, massively. One of the interesting things about Oprah is she could have had just a whole career as a major Hollywood star. She just decides to keep being Oprah Winfrey because that turns out to be much better for her than being a movie star. But she's very, like, has a very successful acting career starting out.

[Holly Fry]

Oh. I mean, Color Purple is like, it is a. It is a classic. It's probably the movie I have seen the most times in my life. Like, it is like a. Like the way that she was in that movie. It was a revelation. Like, even thinking about it now, as good as, like, Whoopi Goldberg is in that movie and Danny Glover is in that movie. Danny Glover is the standout character. Even. So probably her big scene in the Color Purple is when she gives the speech to Celie. All my life I had to fight. If you've heard that Kendrick Lamar song. All right, that's where the beginning of that song comes from. Is Oprah's big scene in that movie. Like, that movie, the way it shifted the culture, we really cannot be overstated.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, yeah. And it's so fascinating to me that, like, that would be for most people, like, oh, shit, I've made it. I've been in this highly praised Hollywood. Would you know, that's the rest of my life is I'm gonna be in movies. Oprah's like, no, no. I know a better way to get really famous. So while this is going on, her movie career is starting. Oprah is continuing to be trash tv. Right. That's really this era. And sex is not the only thing that she finds out that sells racism, gets people to tune in. So during Black History month in the 80s, Oprah started booking KKK members to show up wearing sheets. And intermittently, she would book guests with something important to say, too. Like when she did the Women with Sexual Disorders episode and talk to a woman who had never orgasmed, Oprah brought in a sex surrogate to coach her on air, which elicited a flood of complaints, as Kitty Kelly documents. Yesterday's show was gross, said one woman. I don't know how else to describe it. Absolutely degrading. There are millions of women who never experience sexual pleasure, said OPRAH. We had 660 and 33 calls from women yesterday after the show on the computer. We made lots of women feel they are not alone. And this is what makes. Especially in this era, it's always back and forth, right? Because there's this mix of, like, oh, that's some of the grossest TV I've heard about. And like, oh, you're really putting. Pushing out some very unhealthy attitudes towards dieting into society. And also, it's incredibly important for people to know about stuff like sexual dysfunction and that there's, like, coaching for that and to not feel ashamed. Like, this is a thing that we can talk about in public. And. And Oprah's always so much of both of those things. That said, for every episode like this, you'd get where it's like, yeah, I'm glad someone in the fucking 80s was talking about sexual dysfunction and the fact that there are treatments available that you can and should seek. You go right from that to Oprah being like, also, the devil is coming for your children. And this is going to get us onto one of my favorite subjects, how Oprah Winfrey helped start the Satanic panic.

[Bridget Todd]

But first.

[Robert Evans]

Ah, mmm. But first. But first, you know, who else is the devil but, like, the sexy devil? Like the devil when he's played by that guy who also played the president in the Command and Conquer Red alert 2. You know that guy?

[Andrew T.]

I'm just nodding.

[Robert Evans]

She's just nodding. Everyone's just nodding. Nobody else remembers that guy. He played the devil once. Look him up.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Hey, listeners. I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco, host of the Murder on Songbird Road podcast. Murder on Songbird Road revisits a controversial 2020 murder that occurred in Southern Illinois. It divided a community and pitted families against one another. But questions remain as to whether the mother of four serving time for the crime is actually guilty. I'm excited to tell you that you can get access to all episodes of Murder on Songbird Road 100% ad free and one week before anyone else with an I Heart True Crime plus subscription. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for I Heart True Crime plus and subscribe.

[Jon Stewart]

Today Jon Stewart is back in the host chair at the Daily show, which means he's also back in our ears on the Daily Show Ears Edition Podcast. The Daily show podcast has everything you need to stay on top of today's news and pop culture. You get hilarious satirical takes on entertainment, politics, sports and more from John and the team of correspondents and contributors. The podcast also has content you can't get anywhere else, like extended interviews and a roundup of the weekly headlines. Listen to the Daily Show Ears edition on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Robert Evans]

It was big news. I mean, white girl gets murdered, found in a cemetery. Big, big news news.

[Bridget Todd]

When a young woman is murdered, a desperate search for answers takes investigators to some unexpected places. He believed it could be part of a satanic cult.

[Andrew T.]

I think there were many individuals present. I don't know who pulled the trigger.

[Bridget Todd]

A long investigation stalls until someone changes their story.

[Holly Fry]

I like saw whole thing that happened.

[Bridget Todd]

An arrest, trial and conviction soon follow.

[Robert Evans]

He just saw his body just kind of collapsing.

[Bridget Todd]

Two decades later, a new team of lawyers says their client is innocent.

[Robert Evans]

He did not kill her.

[Bridget Todd]

There's no way is the real killer rightly behind bars or still walking free. Are you capable of murder?

[Andrew T.]

I definitely am not.

[Bridget Todd]

Did you kill her? Listen to the Real Killer Season 3 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Welcome to the Criminalia Podcast. I'm Maria Tremarke.

[Holly Fry]

And I'm Holly Fry. Together we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Each season we explore a new theme. Everything from poisoners and pirates to art thieves and snake oil products and those who made and sold them.

[Holly Fry]

We uncover the stories and secrets of some of history's most compelling criminal figures, including a man who built a submarine as a getaway vehicle. Yep, that's a fact.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

We also look at what kinds of societal forces were at play at the time of the crime, from legal injustices to the ethics of body snatching, to see what, if anything, might look different through today's perspective.

[Holly Fry]

And be sure to tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in custom made cocktails and mocktails inspired by the story. There's one for every story we tell.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get Your podcasts.

[Robert Evans]

We're back. Four people are so happy. I just made that reference. Everyone else has stopped listening forever. So. Satanic panic. In 1989, a Canadian psychiatrist and con man named Lawrence Pazder wrote a book about his patient who he married, Michelle Smith, claiming he'd recovered her memories of participating in elaborate, impossible satanic rituals while being abused for the devil's gain. This book Michelle remembers helped launch the Satanic Panic, a religious moral panic that ruined hundreds of lives and made much, laid much of the groundwork for QANON to take off today. We maybe don't get the Trump presidency without the Satanic panic. That was some necessary groundwork. Right? Right. You got to put in those load bearing pillars and this is, this is where that's coming from. And Oprah helps get it off the ground. She brings Lawrence and Michelle onto her show, along with several other prominent. If you are a satanic panic con person, right, who is like, I worship the devil. I sacrificed babies. Oprah will let you say whatever to. At this point, literally tens of millions of people are tuning into her show. I want to start with a clip of a 1986 episode which wasn't about the Satan panic, but contained a sting for their upcoming episode on Devil Worshippers. And I want to play this just because, you know, we talk. I throw to ads in a lot of, you know, different ways here, but I got a bow to the master class here.

[G]

All right, we'll come back and we're going to talk about sex some more. Back in a moment.

[Robert Evans]

The devil, the screen after she says, that is just, just a picture of the devil on a TV screen holding his own tail with a Thursday. Victims of satanic worship. I love that. Iconic. Coming next, the devil.

[Bridget Todd]

Oh, my God.

[Robert Evans]

Also, we're gonna talk about sex some more. We should have thrown to ads now, Sophie, sorry. That would have been the way to do it.

[Bridget Todd]

Next time, bud.

[Robert Evans]

You gotta learn from the masters here. Now I'm gonna play or I'm gonna have Sophie play another clip. I think from closer to 1989 or 1990. Most of Oprah' early shows are not preserved in a convenient way. So I did my best here.

[G]

My next guest was used also in worshiping the devil. Participated in human sacrifice rituals, rituals, and cannibalism. She says her family has been involved in rituals for generations. She is currently in extensive therapy, suffers from multiple personality disorder, meaning she's blocked out many of the terrifying and painful memories of her childhood. Meet Rachel, who is also in disguise to protect her identity. You come from Generations of ritualistic abuse.

[Robert Evans]

Yes.

[G]

My family has an extensive family tree, and they keep track of who's been involved and who hasn't.

[Bridget Todd]

I don't think she's in disguise.

[Andrew T.]

They did.

[Robert Evans]

Really?

[Bridget Todd]

Yes.

[Andrew T.]

Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

Okay. Okay. What's the disguise? She just looks like a lady.

[Andrew T.]

I mean, I thought we were gonna find out.

[Robert Evans]

Is it the boutonniere?

[Bridget Todd]

Is it wears to a wig and glasses disguise?

[Robert Evans]

Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah, they Clark Kented her. Yeah. She put on the. If she takes those glasses off, her family's not gonn recognize the devil. Can't catch her.

[Bridget Todd]

Sorry. Presuming. Just was very thrown off by them being.

[Robert Evans]

That is funny.

[Bridget Todd]

This lady's in disguise.

[Robert Evans]

It's impossible to tell.

[Bridget Todd]

Zoom in on her.

[Robert Evans]

I. And I don't say this to shame her. I'm shaming the 90s. You can't tell a bad wig from normal hair in, like, 1990. No, you can't. Like, there's no way to do it.

[Bridget Todd]

But that brooch is large.

[Robert Evans]

That brooch is something. Yes.

[G]

Who hasn't been involved? And it's gone back to, like, 1700. And so you were right. I was born into a family that believes in this. And this is it. This is. Does everyone else think it's a nice Jewish family? From the outside, you appear to be a nice Jewish girl. Definitely. And you all are worshiping the devil inside a home. Right. There's other Jewish families across the country, not just my own family, really.

[Robert Evans]

So I don't think I have to tell you why this is dangerous. That's a real bad thing to have 20 million people watching, like.

[Holly Fry]

Not great.

[Robert Evans]

All the Jews are secretly worshiping the devil.

[Holly Fry]

They might appear as, like, wholesome, normal family, but behind closed doors.

[Robert Evans]

So, yeah, Oprah is literally just doing the blood libel on daytime TV on the most popular talk show in the country. And we're gonna continue here because it just gets. I am shocked that this was allowed.

[G]

What kinds of things went on in the family? Well, there would be rituals in which babies would be sacrificed, and you would have to. You know, babies. There were people who bred babies in our family. No one would know about it. A lot of people were overweight, so you couldn't tell if they were pregnant or not. Or they would supposedly go away for a while and then come back. The other thing I want to point out, not all Jewish people sacrifice babies. I mean, it's not a very condemn. Just want to point out this is the first time I heard of any Jewish people sacrificing babies. But anyway, so you witnessed the sacrifice, Right. When I was very young, I was forced to participate in that in which I had to sacrifice an incense. And the, the purpose of sacrifices to what is to bring you.

[Robert Evans]

What.

[G]

What are you sacrificing for? For power.

[Andrew T.]

Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

I have a lot of questions, so many questions. First off, off, do we think it makes it better for Oprah to offhandedly be like, I've never heard of Jewish people sacrificing babies before anyway. Tell me about these Jewish baby sacrifices. Oh, God.

[Andrew T.]

I mean, this, this does get closer to her future crimes of like, like, clearly, if even, even if you want to remove, like, the. Any sort of, like, willful malice from Oprah, like, a pretty shameful credulity is on display here.

[Robert Evans]

Yes. Like, yeah, like, as a middling journalist, my first question would be, are you not worried you're going to get arrested because you just admitted to murdering a baby on television?

[Andrew T.]

Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

You know that's a crime, right? There's no statute of limitations on killing a baby.

[Holly Fry]

So I have a question. Like, what is the production of this, like, behind the scenes? Like, where do they find this lady? Did they. Is it just like, oh, you've got a story about killing babies and sacrifice. Come on, on the air, Tell us about it.

[Robert Evans]

You know, you get pieces of this. Nobody will directly say, like, we just. We're full of shit, right? We just lied, you know, but you can tell that what's happening. You get this, like that previous clip where Opa's like, I want a priest who did this and this and this, right? Because it'll sell an episode. Episode. She's like, I want someone talking about sacrificing babies. And, you know, it exists in the world. And you don't have to coach people on this. If you let enough people know, you can get on TV in front of 20 million people. If you talk about sacrificing a baby, there will be someone whose desperation for attention is so high that they will come on television and claim to have sacrificed a baby. That's the way people are.

[Holly Fry]

That's the person you should give a platform for. Sure. That's a healthy person, well adjusted. Help them spread their message.

[Robert Evans]

Yes, we love Oprah Winfrey. Doing things that are, again, as a guy who's read a lot of Nazi propaganda, almost indistinguishable from Nazi propaganda. Like, right. That, like, this is specifically one of the major justifications of the Holocaust. Jews are abducting Christian babies and sacrificing them to the devil. Like, that is really bad to Do I really can't emphasize enough how dangerous this thing is. And if you look at shit like in QAnon, right, where there's a, like a third of the country believes that the Democratic Party are literally eating babies to gain everlasting youth, which, like, just look at Nancy Pelosi, guys. She's not, she's not getting everlasting youth. Like, her hip just broke. This is unequivocal bastardism. Right. Like, this is a bad thing to be doing. Yeah.

[Andrew T.]

And, you know, I mean, presumably the thing was like, wink, we're not going to ask you any hard questions, right? Let's just get the ratings.

[Robert Evans]

Just tell me, Give me some detect. And it's, it's so fucked up that like on one hand, when you're doing this about, like you are talking to someone about their, their difficulty, you know, I've never experienced an orgasm, you're asking these kind of questions to get them to say more. That is making other people with the problem of whom there are many feel less alone. Same thing with, like sexual assault survivors. And then the fact that you have, you, you have absolutely no compunction with like, I'll do the same thing for lies about Jews sacrificing babies. Yeah. Fascinating stuff.

[Holly Fry]

I'm so curious if she. Because it sounds like at one point in her career she really thought of herself as like a news person, a journalism person. What does she think about her career now?

[Robert Evans]

You know, here's the thing, because Oprah never really trained in journalism very much. I don't know if she maybe believes this, if she thinks these are the same. Like, that's kind of the thing to me. But also, I want to be like, you are clearly brilliant. You are a once in a lifetime genius, at least at some things. But also, as we've all seen, we've all become increasingly aware of people who are like, well, you're clearly brilliant at one thing. And now your access to Twitter has made us all aware that you don't understand anything else.

[Andrew T.]

I mean, the evidence seems to be that people who are brilliant on one thing may actually be terrible at everything else. So standard at most other things.

[Robert Evans]

It may just be that Oprah is a once in a lifetime mind when it comes to the business of entertainment. And also honestly believed this woman was sacrificing babies with her family. I don't know. Now, that said, the fact that we have quotes from her being like, hey, get me a priest who said this makes me kind of lean more in the direction of no, Oprah. Oprah knew Right. Some of this. A lot of this is bullshit. And it was just trying to get eyeballs on the tv. I don't. I think it's often a mix, like, I don't know how much she's able to parse it herself. I want to talk about another incident that kind of really makes me go back and forth, which is the McMartin Preschool Satanic abuse scandal. Now, we cover this in our episodes on the Satanic Panic, but the gist of the case is that a bunch of parents became convinced that their children, more than 300 of them in all, had been systematically abused by a satanic cult headed by the McMartin family, who ran a private preschool. The initial allegations, which included claims that one of the alleged molesters could fly, were made by Judy Johnson, who suffered from schizophrenia and was a hardcore alcoholic. From her allegations, a community hysteria developed, which was stoked by an abuse therapy clinic run by Key McFarland, who provided investigations that pushed children with leading questions towards generating allegations. Investigations. A whole lot of people had their lives ruined by this. And despite the fact that the investigation literally dug up the ground around the school to try to find secret satanic torture tunnels, no one was ever convicted of molesting any kids. And people. I don't. I hate re. Litigating this because people are always like, well, but they did find tunnels. No, they didn't. They found trash buried underneath the school because a farm had been there and people bury trash. Trash. All of the. That was buried in there was stuff from the era at which there was a farm there where people were burying trash. The dead animal bones. That's just what happens in the ground, guys. That's just how things are. It's not. They weren't running tunnels to molest toddlers for the devil. It's.

[Andrew T.]

It's also just like the logistics of, like, running. Running a fucking satanic cult. Like, what the fuck are you talking about?

[Robert Evans]

Again, it's one of those. And like, I'm not saying no kid ever got molested at this or other preschools like that. A lot of times the satanic abuse does come from. There's a real sexual abuse problem. And then it gets turned into something that absolutely isn't happening. And again, shitloads of innocent people get wrapped into it, too. Yeah, I don't think. I'm not saying that was happening at McMartin because again, nobody got convicted of it. Anything.

[Andrew T.]

So it's not highly correlated with Satan.

[Robert Evans]

No.

[Andrew T.]

In fact, it might be higher correlated with Satan's old friend.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

And, in fact, church leaders, Southern Baptist leaders, Catholic priests, police officers. These are the people who are molesting kids. And honestly, more than any of those, their own parents and relatives, that's who does it. That's who molests kids.

[Holly Fry]

But it's so much more satisfying to believe it's some, like, big conspiracy. And, Andrew, to your point, look at. Look at the tunnel.

[Robert Evans]

A cousin and an uncle, huh? Sorry, What?

[Andrew T.]

They can fucking fly. What do they need tunnels for?

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, yeah, what do they need? Why. Why are they doing this in tunnels?

[Holly Fry]

Like, why does that make more sense?

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. So as this, in this case, winds on for, like. Like a couple of years, Oprah, it is constantly on the show they are following. This is like the O.J. simpson trial, you know, before the O.J. simpson trial for free in here. Like, they are following every twist and turn in this case breathlessly. And when these people don't get convicted, Oprah and her audience are outraged. She refuses to accept this. She brings a bunch of the children and parents and even some of the jurors onto the show to relitigate the case. And she's not the only person doing this. She's part of a trend in daytime tv. Geraldo Rivera does the same thing. So does Sally Jesse Ruffle. Rafael. But as LA Times columnist Howard Rosenberg noted, compared to them, Geraldo was as judicious as the Supreme Court. In other words, he's saying Geraldo's coverage of this was responsible next to Oprah's, and Geraldo Rivera is not a responsible man. I don't know how else to describe him. Again, when he got hit in the nose with that chair, it was the best thing that ever happened to this country. Quote, and here's Rosenberg. The level of fairness here was typified by Winfrey's admission that she would have made a poor McMartin juror. Because I would say the children said it. All right, you're right. The studio audience applauded. You see pieces of this, too, that, like, if the children say it, it's true. If a mom says it, it's true. It's like, no, you have to have an evidentiary standard. When you are accusing huge numbers of people of hideous crimes, you can't just say, we put a bunch of kids in a room and wouldn't let them leave until they told stories of satanic molestation tunnels and then lock people up for forever. That's a bad way to run a society. Yeah, I don't know. It's good stuff. So while she's doing this she has all these people on. She tells a former McMartin student to tell the audience what she told the jury over 16 days of testimony. And while this is happening, you're getting these frequent shots of the audience shaking their heads and listening to these horrible stories. One of the moms tells Winfrey, I'm outraged at this verdict. And, yeah, it's. It's just. It's very irresponsible. I don't know. I think it's probably bad for there to be a case where all of these people are rung through the mud on television, then acquitted, and then have a whole show where you're like, but actually they were still guilty. These people molest these innocent people molested. A shitload of kids are running a. Like their lives are already ruined. Oprah, what do you doing? I don't know. I don't like this. I don't like this.

[Andrew T.]

Has she ever spoken about any of that?

[Robert Evans]

No. No, no, no.

[Andrew T.]

Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

No.

[Holly Fry]

And I'd have to imagine if she did, the answer would be like, well, everybody was doing it. Like, this is what people did on tv.

[Robert Evans]

But you were the most popular of them.

[Andrew T.]

Right, right, right.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Andrew T.]

It is this thing with. I mean, even the most popular shows, though, it's like you are still following trends. Like, you may have a hand on the scale, for sure. But there is a point too, where, you know, the.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Andrew T.]

As we've seen multiple times, like, the snowball gets outta control and you are simply, regardless of your size, you are along for the ride.

[Robert Evans]

Yep. Well, how's everyone feeling so far?

[Andrew T.]

Finally got bad.

[Robert Evans]

It did it. Did we finally bad.

[Andrew T.]

Pretty bad before, but finally Oprah's doing some evident bad.

[Robert Evans]

The worm has turned, you would say. Anyway, plugs.

[Bridget Todd]

Now that everybody's been bummed. Way to go.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah, I know that was a tough spot to end at, I guess. Although I will say I'm still thinking about that headline or that title of the review MLK shot twice that I'm gonna be thinking about that one for a long time.

[Andrew T.]

That is a level of petty. That is very.

[Robert Evans]

It's beautiful. Yeah.

[Andrew T.]

Very nice. I don't know. I got a podcast called Yo's Racist. It's fine.

[Robert Evans]

Check out. Yo, is this racist? Check out There are no girls on the Internet. And find our hosts online and let them know your favorite moment from the Oprah Winfrey Show. Bombard us all on blue sky with your favorite Oprah clips. Don't do that.

[Holly Fry]

Oh, do it to me. I mean, I had to, like, bite my tongue. Cause I have so much to say. Go ahead and spam me on behind or on Blue Sky. I want to hear your favorite Oprah takes. I will tell you mine.

[Robert Evans]

Don't bite your tongue.

[Holly Fry]

Oh, it would just be me talking about and another time on Oprah she did this and then another episode she did that. Like it would be so unfun to listen to.

[Robert Evans]

Well, part four we're going to.

[Andrew T.]

Yeah, we'll find out.

[Robert Evans]

We'll find out how we're gonna supercharge. Bridget just let you loose. Until next time, folks. Don't put people up in front of the country and tell them that you sacrifice babies for the devil. Avoid that.

[Bridget Todd]

Yeah, behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, Visit our website coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the Bastards is Now available on YouTube. New episodes every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to our channel YouTube.com behind the Bastards.

[Jon Stewart]

Jon Stewart is back in the host chair at the Daily show, which means he's also back in our ears on the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. Join late night legend Jon Stewart at and the best news team for today's biggest headlines, exclusive extended interviews and more. Now this is a second term we can all get behind Listen to the Daily Show Ears edition on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Hey listeners, I'm Lauren Gripe Pacheco, host of the Murder on Songbird Road podcast and I'm excited to share this riveting story with you. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Murder on Songbird Road 100% ad free and one week early through the I Heart True Crime plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts plus, you'll get access to other chart topping true crime shows you love, like Betrayal, the Girlfriends, Paper Ghosts, Murder Homes, Unrestorable, the Godmother, and more. So don't wait, head to Apple Podcasts, search for I Heart True Crime plus and subscribe today. Welcome to the Criminalia Podcast. I'm Maria Tremerke.

[Holly Fry]

And I'm Holly Fry. Together we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Each season we explore a new theme. From poisoners to art thieves.

[Holly Fry]

We uncover the secrets of history's most interesting figures, from legal injustices to body snapshot matching.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

And tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in cocktails and mocktails inspired by each story.

[Holly Fry]

Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Robert Evans]

It was big news. I mean, white girl gets murdered, found in a cemetery. Big, big news.

[Bridget Todd]

A long investigation stalls until someone changes their story.

[Holly Fry]

I like saw whole thing that happened.

[Bridget Todd]

And an arrest, trial and conviction soon follow.

[Robert Evans]

He did not kill her.

[Bridget Todd]

There's no way is the Real Killer rightly behind bars or still walking free. Did you kill her? Listen to the real Killer, Season 3 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.