Behind the Bastards: "The Men Who Might Have Killed Us All" – Part Three
Podcast: Behind the Bastards (Cool Zone Media & iHeartPodcasts)
Host: Robert Evans
Guest: Margaret Killjoy
Date: December 9, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the architects, mindsets, and mythologies behind the rise of nuclear weapons and the United States’ early strategy of nuclear air power and deterrence. Robert Evans and guest Margaret Killjoy trace the logic, propaganda, and catastrophic near-misses of the Cold War, revealing a system built less on sober judgment than on hubris, lies, and repeated disregard for massive civilian casualties. They use historical anecdotes, dark humor, and sharp analysis to confront decisions that nearly ended humanity, focusing on men like Curtis LeMay and Douglas MacArthur, the build-up of the Strategic Air Command (SAC), and the shift from conventional to thermonuclear weaponry.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Necessity (or Not) of Nuking Japan

• Discussion of Truman’s decision: Did dropping atomic bombs force Japan’s surrender, or was Japan already beaten?
  • It’s still debated, with Robert citing evidence (War Department surveys, historians) that Japan likely would have surrendered without atomic attacks ([03:00–09:15]).
  • Quote:
    • Robert: “Japan was defeated not because of the nukes... but because they were defeated viciously and comprehensively in every field.” ([04:13])
    • “The Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic bombs did not defeat Japan, nor... persuade Japan to accept unconditional surrender.” – quoting War Department report ([07:51])
    • Robert: “I guess I go with Ike on this one. ... It wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing.” ([09:13])

The Immediate Aftermath and Downplaying Nuclear Horror

• Curtis LeMay & other ‘bastards’ move quickly to normalize the bomb in America ([10:00–15:15]).
• Minimization and Lies:
  • General Groves at a Senate hearing claims radiation poisoning is “a very pleasant way to die,” a direct falsehood ([12:32–12:50]).
  • Robert: “That was a lie. That was not just Groves not knowing. That was Groves lying to try and make nukes more palatable for Americans.” ([12:52])

Doomsday Logic and the Rise of SAC

• From total war to perpetual threat:
  • LeMay and others advocate for a limitless Air Force, pushing “deterrence” as America’s only future, building a force always on the edge of launching ([15:00–20:20]).
  • Robert: “No one has ever tried harder to wipe out the human race than Curtis fucking LeMay.” ([16:57])
• Blessing and curse of nuclear deterrence:
  • Early justifications for nukes relied on inflated casualty estimates and the assumption only the bomb could hold off the Soviets.
  • “If we are prepared, it may never come. ...It is not immediately conceivable that any nation will dare to attack us if we are prepared.” – Quoting LeMay’s deterrence logic ([18:46])

The RAND Corporation and Insane Ideas

• Establishment of RAND:
  • Born from Air Force funding, its first project was a “death ray” – a sign of disconnect from reality among Cold War planners ([22:31–23:17]).
  • Margaret jokes about the “Life Ray,” satirizing defense contractor branding ([23:48–24:22]).

Obsession with Strategic Bombing & Civilian Casualties

• Bonus Effects:
  • Discussions around North Korea and Germany make clear U.S. planners embraced “bonus effects” – euphemism for massive collateral damage ([29:42]).
  • Margaret: “It's the opposite of collateral damage. But it's the same concept.” ([29:54])
• Korean War as Test Case:
  • LeMay orders mass civilian bombings when precision fails. At least 2 million North Korean civilians are killed, 1/5 to 1/6 of population ([43:34–43:46]).
  • Margaret: “Jesus fuck. I straight up didn’t know that. ...Oh my God.” ([43:34–43:46])
  • Robert: “We murder 2 million people and it doesn’t win.” ([43:46])

Nuclear Near-Misses and Coverups

• Loss and concealment of nukes:
  • SAC repeatedly loses nuclear weapons through carelessness and accidents, sometimes resulting in conventional explosions with radioactive material near civilian areas ([51:16–52:01]).
  • “That was the fifth nuclear bomb lost...from the end of WWII to November of 1955.” ([51:50])

The Race to the H-Bomb (Thermonuclear Era)

• From fission to fusion:
  • The shift to the hydrogen bomb increases the apocalyptic power by an order of magnitude ([56:25–58:47]).
  • Robert: “These are not survivable. ...There is not an after thermonuclear war.” ([57:34])
• Testing impacts:
  • U.S. atomic tests in the Marshall Islands erase entire islands, irradiate populations, and constitute ongoing crimes against humanity ([60:15–60:59]).
• Insatiable stockpiling:
  • By 1959, U.S. has more than 12,000 nuclear weapons, making atomic strategy ever more unhinged ([66:55]).

Military-Industrial Madness

• Army and Air Force rivalry only means more nukes:
  • Eisenhower cuts army manpower, so the army asks for nuclear shells, mines, and missiles by the hundreds of thousands ([67:49]).
  • Margaret (re: nuclear landmines): “Nuclear landmine’s a great plan. I can’t come up with any negative thoughts.” (sarcastic) ([67:49])
• **Defensive nuclear weapons (like anti-air nukes) are “arguably ethical” only by comparison, as even these plans could trigger widespread fallout ([68:47]).

Launch-on-Warning and Hair-Trigger Logic

• LeMay and preemption:
  • No longer just retaliation – now “counterforce” and readiness to strike at the first signs, increasing risk of accidental war ([63:58–64:59]).
  • Margaret: “He’s very concerned about national survival. Like I’m much more concerned about humanity’s survival. ...if you destroy all life on Earth, the nation’s gone.” ([65:04])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On dropping the bomb:
  • “It wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing. We didn’t have to do that.” – Robert quoting Eisenhower ([09:01–09:18])
• On military logic:
  • “We have a new toy, we’re gonna see what this thing does.” – Margaret on the urge to use nukes ([10:31])
• On official lying about radiation:
  • “In fact, they say it is a very pleasant way to die.” – Gen. Leslie Groves (sarcastically quoted) ([12:32])
  • “That was a lie. That was not just Groves not knowing. That was Groves lying...” – Robert ([12:52])
• Euphemizing mass death:
  • “It’s the opposite of collateral damage. But it’s the same concept.” – Margaret ([29:54])
  • “‘Bonus effects’ is used a lot in nuclear war planning. … That’s a bonus effect, baby.” – Robert ([29:42])
• On Curtis LeMay:
  • “No one has ever tried harder to wipe out the human race than Curtis fucking LeMay...” – Robert ([16:57])
• On the “logic” of deterrence:
  • “The only way to win a nuclear war…was to strike first and strike hard. … Successful defense can now only lessen defeat.” – Quoting SAC doctrine ([63:57])
• On the H-bomb:
  • “The prototype thermonuclear weapon...made it equivalent to a thousand Hiroshima bombs.” ([58:42])
  • “You can see just in the picture how catastrophic these weapons are.” ([61:00])

Important Historical Timestamps

• 00:48 – Margaret joins, noting she expected a Warhammer 40k discussion
• 01:06–02:00 – Story of Louis Slotin sacrificing himself (atomic research)
• 03:00–09:15 – Exploding the myth that nukes ended WWII
• 10:00–15:15 – LeMay’s vision and the PR campaign for the bomb
• 16:26–20:20 – Advocacy and logic of unchained Air Force deterrence
• 22:31–24:22 – RAND Corporation (and “death ray”) origin story
• 29:42–30:30 – “Bonus effects” (civilian casualties) discussed
• 43:34–44:09 – US bombing kills 2 million North Koreans
• 51:16–52:01 – Nuclear weapons lost/dropped by SAC
• 56:25–58:47 – The debut and destructive power of hydrogen bombs
• 67:49–70:20 – Army requests for nuclear landmines, anti-air nukes, and escalation
• 63:57–64:59 – LeMay's move to "Launch on warning" strategy increases risk

Tone & Style

The hosts balance dark, biting humor with rigorous historical evidence to underscore just how perilous early nuclear strategy was and how little the architects seemed to care about human consequences. Both use sarcasm and irreverence to expose the absurdity and horror built into the nuclear age: “If anyone gets into the military whose name rhymes with either of these guys’ names, we need to redact it immediately.” ([18:46])

Margaret’s asides (“Nuclear landmine’s a great plan. I can’t come up with any negative thoughts.” [67:49]) and Robert’s running theme of shock – “It’s remarkable we lived through the Cold War. Yeah, yeah.” ([20:22]) – bring levity to a deeply serious, chilling narrative.

Conclusion

The episode casts a critical light on the men, ideologies, and missteps that brought the world to the brink of destruction perennially, exposing how the logic of deterrence rests on deeply flawed—sometimes downright dangerous—assumptions, institutional inertia, and outright lies. Through historical narrative and gallows humor, Evans and Killjoy reveal that civilization’s continued survival is far more miraculous—and fragile—than most people realize.