Part Three: The Phil Spector Episodes

Summary

Behind the Bastards: Part Three – The Phil Spector Episodes

Original Air Date: April 7, 2026
Host: Robert Evans with Sophie and Greasy Will

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Episode Overview

This episode delves deep into the later life and deteriorating personal relationships of notorious music producer Phil Spector, focusing heavily on his abusive marriage to Ronnie Spector, chaotic collaborations with legendary musicians (including the Beatles, George Harrison, John Lennon, and Leonard Cohen), and his increasing paranoia, violence, and emotional instability. The conversation examines Spector’s complex legacy—his musical genius entwined with profound personal darkness and cruelty.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Musical Cold Open & Introduction ([00:04]–[05:55])

• The show opens with a musical parody of "Imagine" by Greasy Will, humorously lamenting a world without bastards for the podcast to discuss.
• The episode is introduced as a continuation of the Phil Spector miniseries, with a promise to cover his connections to the Beatles and Lennon.
• Robert jokes about existential dread—“Did people finally figure out how to stop being evil? Is this the day my job loses all meaning?” ([05:00], Robert Evans).

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2. The Isolation and Abuse of Ronnie Spector ([08:10]–[29:08])

Ronnie’s Trapped Existence

• Phil and Ronnie’s marriage quickly devolved; she spent her wedding night locked in the bathroom with her mother, hiding from a drunken and abusive Phil ([08:19]–[08:46]).
• Spector isolates Ronnie, locks her in the house, monitors visitors, and instructs his bodyguard to also watch her. Any hint at autonomy or outside contact is suppressed. ([11:36]–[14:29])
• He introduces heavy drinking into her life, which becomes a coping mechanism amidst ongoing emotional abuse.
• Spector further exerts control by changing her public identity from “Ronnie” to “Veronica Spector,” marking possessions with her new monogram ([16:11]–[16:30]).
• He gifts her a car, complete with an inflatable mannequin made to look like him to "watch over her" ([18:28]–[19:24]).

Notable Quote

“It might seem far fetched that anyone would put that much energy into controlling someone else's life, but that was Phil. You've got to remember that the man was a genius and he had nothing better to do with his life after he retired from rock and roll. So turning me into the perfect wife became his major project…” ([17:10], Ronnie Spector, from her memoir Be My Baby)

Escalating Control and Gaslighting

• Ronnie is blocked from her music career; Spector sabotages her singles and uses their failures to keep her out of the studio ([21:40]–[22:10]).
• Phil adopts a baby, Dante, but fabricates a backstory and prohibits Ronnie from being an active mother ([22:51]–[24:01]).
• Spector uses Ronnie's forced rehab stints as legal ammunition during their acrimonious divorce proceedings ([51:07]).
• Mental and emotional violence escalates: Spector hires a nurse to give her heavy tranquilizers while he's away and threatens her with a display of a golden glass casket, saying it would be hers if she ever left him ([29:41]–[34:08]).
• She ultimately flees the mansion barefoot, leaving her children and possessions behind ([49:15]).

Notable Quotes

• “He had a custom made casket. He had them bring it into his house. Presumably, he left it there for years.” ([33:52], Sophie)
• “I mean, that's also got to be getting him off, just the exercise of that much power.” ([25:10], Robert Evans)

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3. Spector’s Interactions with the Rich and Famous ([36:02]–[47:41])

The Beatles and Lennon

• Spector works on the Beatles’ Let It Be album, controversially adding lush orchestration; Paul McCartney sends an angry letter demanding the removal of strings, horns, and vocals ([39:07]–[40:13]).
• Lennon and Harrison appreciate Spector’s approach, while McCartney is incensed. Let It Be goes on to commercial success ([41:01]).

Notable Quote

“Dear Sir, in the future, no one will be allowed to add or subtract from recordings of any of my songs without my permission...Don't Ever Do It Again.” ([39:07], Paul McCartney's letter)

• Spector collaborates with George Harrison on All Things Must Pass and with Lennon on Imagine and the Plastic Ono Band sessions, fluctuating between professional brilliance and dangerous instability.
• Spector’s erratic behavior includes drinking binges, physical altercations, and occasionally ghosting high-profile collaborators ([43:25]–[46:49]).

Spector’s Reputation

• Stories abound of Spector’s outlandish paranoia (e.g., bodyguards, fortified mansion) and showy, dangerous antics (such as firing a gun in the studio, [63:14]), often interpreted as darkly comic posturing by those around him.

“If you're gonna shoot me, shoot me, but don't fuck with me ears. I need them to listen with.” ([65:24], John Lennon to Spector, after gun fired in the studio)

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4. Collapse, Violence, and Professional Meltdown ([47:41]–[79:56])

• Following the Beatles era, Spector’s working relationships grow more unhinged: surprise adoptions, erratic disappearances, brandishing weapons, public and private tantrums ([47:41]–[56:46]).
• Feuds and violence become more pronounced (e.g., Spector delivers divorce settlement in nickels by armed guard; physically threatens collaborators and staff; pulls guns on musicians in the studio).
• Specter’s collaboration with Leonard Cohen on Death of a Ladies’ Man is described by Cohen as “Hitlerian,” dominated by guns, drunkenness, and a suffocating aura of intimidation ([77:04]–[79:04]).

Memorable Cohen Exchange

“Leonard, I love you.”
“I hope you do.”
([77:17]–[77:20], Spector to Cohen during a gunpoint encounter)

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5. Family Life, Further Isolation, and the Descent into Madness ([79:56]–[86:42])

• Spector neglects and psychologically abuses his adopted children, even orchestrating grotesque simulations of sexual acts to enforce “manhood.”
• A rare positive note: with his later partner Janice Zavala, Spector briefly appears to act as a supportive father, but after their son’s leukemia death, Spector falls back into profound depression ([83:35]–[84:52]).
• His increasing isolation, gun-obsession, and signs of untreated mental illness intensify.

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6. The Precipice: Spector’s Final Decline ([84:53]–[87:02])

• Mick Brown’s revealing profile of Spector in December 2002 is said to trigger his final spiral.
• Spector breaks sobriety and within weeks will be involved in the fatal incident that became his criminal undoing—the shooting of Lana Clarkson—a story to be covered in the next episode.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On violence as part of genius:

  “Was the madness part of the genius or just something that had gone unchecked because of his genius?” ([85:53], Sophie, paraphrasing Mick Brown’s biography.)

• On the spoils and travesties of music industry success:

  “He takes away her ability to make money, making her dependent on his money...it kind of robs her...of like, her future. The things. Probably. Well, and also just like, probably some of the stuff she's proudest of...” ([55:48]–[55:59], Robert Evans)

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Important Timestamps

• [08:19] – Ronnie locked in bathroom, wedding night
• [17:10] – Ronnie Spector on Phil’s obsession with control (memoir quote)
• [18:28] – The "Phil mannequin" story: Inflatable dummy to “watch over” Ronnie
• [21:40] – Sabotage of Ronnie’s career
• [29:41] – Phil’s "golden glass casket" threat
• [39:07] – McCartney’s furious letter to Alan Klein over Spector’s production
• [41:01] – Beatles’ final commercial success with Let It Be
• [46:49] – Lennon’s album performance, Yoko’s increased artistic focus
• [51:07] – Spector uses Ronnie’s rehab trips against her in divorce
• [63:14] – Phil fires gun in John Lennon’s studio session
• [65:24] – Lennon’s quip: “Shoot me, but don’t fuck with my ears”
• [77:17] – Spector points gun at Leonard Cohen’s head: “Leonard, I love you.” “I hope you do.”
• [85:53] – Mick Brown interview, “Mad Genius of Phil Spector,” cited as catalyst for Spector’s final unraveling

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Tone & Style

True to Behind the Bastards' signature style, this episode masterfully blends grim true crime, gallows humor, and rooted historical narrative. The hosts’ asides—ranging from further historical context to irreverent personal or industry anecdotes—provide needed relief and context for the episode’s harrowing content. Spector's story is presented as an object lesson in unchecked power, emphasizing both his cultural importance and the ugliness behind his myth.

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Conclusion

The episode leaves Spector on the edge of his notorious last act—the murder of Lana Clarkson—setting up a conclusion to the grim saga of Phil Spector’s life and legacy. The hosts promise to discuss this in the next installment. The show closes as always with plugs for the hosts' side projects and a final sardonic commentary on the perils of genius and the necessity of being wary of “little men with guns.”

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Transcript

[Narrator/Producer]

Media.

[Robert Evans]

Hey everybody. Robert here and the International Academy of Digital Arts and Sciences have announced that three different Cool Zone media shows have been nominated for awards at the 30th annual Webby Awards. You can vote on these now if you just google the name of the podcast and the category behind the Bastards is denominated in the experimental and innovation podcasts category. It could Happen here is in the news and politics podcasts category. And James Stout's miniseries Migrating to America, A Dream Worth Dying for has been nominated in the podcasts documentary category. And you can find links to vote for each of these podcasts in the episode description and in the posts on social media for episodes that Could Happen here and behind the Bastards. Thank you. Welcome back to behind the Bastards, everyone. I'm Robert Evans. This is a classy podcast about the worst people in all of history, always introduced by beautiful musical accompaniment courtesy of our guest, Greasy Will.

[Greasy Will]

Imagine there's no Bastards. It isn't hard to do. No culture evolving, No war crimes to review. Imagine all the podcasters, what would they even do?

[Narrator/Producer]

You

[Greasy Will]

imagine there's no robot and no Sophie to. Nothing to hear every Tuesday

[Sophie]

no pumps,

[Greasy Will]

no creams for you. Imagine all the people no than else to do you. You may say I'm a dreamer but this part has made it clear. The whole world is full of bastards and they somehow persevere. Imagine there's no warlords or techniques Roman schemes no poison gas dictators. Or libertarian dreams. Imagine all the time Robert would finally have free. You may say I'm a dreamer but if the bastards were all through

[Robert Evans]

let

[Greasy Will]

there be silence in the studio

[Robert Evans]

and

[Greasy Will]

there'd be nothing left to do.

[Robert Evans]

That was beautiful, Will.

[Sophie]

Thank you. Thank you. Yes. This was an entire composition by me. I reproduced this all because today we are going to be talking a little bit about the Beatles and about John Lennon and Phil Spector and his relationship to all of them. And so yesterday I decided I had so many things to do that I was gonna like lose my mind. And I thought what could be better than ignoring all things, getting blackout drunk and making a tribute to song for this week's second week here on Phil Spector episode three, which I thought this was gonna be like one episode.

[Robert Evans]

I can't believe we're getting two songs.

[Sophie]

Yeah, well, I had to. It was like, it was, you know, it was like I gotta keep them, keep em. Keep the fans interested.

[Robert Evans]

I judge it good.

[Sophie]

So, yeah, so yesterday I got. You got your gavilee. Hon.

[Robert Evans]

It's official. Yeah, that was beautiful. And I do wonder A lot will I wake up scared every night? Like, did people finally figured out how to stop being evil? Like, is this the day that my job loses all meaning and then I wake up and someone's committed a horrible crime against humanity?

[Sophie]

Thank you. Breathe and watch. Like, even just opening your phone, you're like, oh, cool. Still employed, still got work to do. Thank God.

[Robert Evans]

Thank God.

[Sophie]

Oh, man. Well, this has been a cold open. And it's a musical cold open.

[Robert Evans]

A very warm cold open.

[Sophie]

A very warm cold opening.

[Narrator/Producer]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Sophie]

Guaranteed human.

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[Robert Evans]

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[Sophie]

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[Robert Evans]

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[Sophie]

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[Robert Evans]

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[Sophie]

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[Robert Evans]

We're pretty close though.

[Sophie]

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[Greasy Will]

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[Robert Evans]

We're hearing more about Phil Spector if anyone notices that my robe is covered in hay, it's because I just fed the animals.

[Sophie]

It's a robe. If you'd have not said anything, I'd assumed that was a regular winter jacket. But no, you're wearing a robe.

[Robert Evans]

No, it's a robe I got. Well, it's a robe I got at Caesar's Palace.

[Sophie]

They know now when you remember buying this.

[Narrator/Producer]

Well, that's my favorite part.

[Sophie]

When we last left left Phil. He and Ronnie had just been married, and he went to visit his mother, Bertha, literally the day of. Right. He went to visit his mother Bertha.

[Narrator/Producer]

Abusive as ever.

[Sophie]

Yes, Truly terrible. When he gets home, he's drunk as hell. He starts screaming. Sure, right. And he's all mad at Ronnie and everything because he believes she's taken his money. And Ronnie and her mother spend the night locked in her bathroom, hiding from Phil. Scared, you know, and they sleep in her bathtub. Right, okay. On her wedding night. That's how she spends her wedding night.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Cool.

[Robert Evans]

That's romantic.

[Sophie]

So the next day, Phil wakes up, realizes he's a bastard, and changes all his ways. That's the end of the story.

[Robert Evans]

Okay, great. Wow, you really put a lot of work into the song for a six minute long episode. But I appreciate it, Will.

[Sophie]

No. Yeah, well, so I was lying.

[Narrator/Producer]

You're lying.

[Sophie]

No, not you.

[Narrator/Producer]

Not greasy.

[Robert Evans]

Will Spector went on to spend the rest of his life volunteering at a children's hospital, doing something with children.

[Sophie]

He's just kind of a shitty husband at this point. You know, it's like, I guess it's behind the shitty husbands.

[Robert Evans]

That's why I'm so far. So far. Well, and also, he's fucked over a lot of women.

[Sophie]

He has. He has been horrible. He's. In general, he's a horrible person. Like, so his relationship with his mother is strained at best. He doesn't let her come into the studio at all. He doesn't like her being around at all. Sometimes she does show up at the studio and she still calls him Harvey, which pisses him off. You know, she refuses to ever call him Phil.

[Robert Evans]

That's weird.

[Sophie]

And she'll like, randomly show up in the studio with like, like matzo ball soup and shit, and be like, phil, you need to eat.

[Robert Evans]

And he's like, no, not turning down soup.

[Sophie]

I know. I would not either. But, like, you know, whatever.

[Robert Evans]

Anyways, he's also probably consuming his weight in cocaine every day, right? So I'm imagining not much of an appetite.

[Sophie]

He's not really a drug user, as Much. He kind of looks down on drugs mostly. He looks down on artists that do drugs. Yeah. His. When he does get into the vices, it's mostly. It's mostly alcohol. You know, it's mostly that he's an alcoholic, but he's super Jekyll and Hyde with it all the time. It's like he'll go and he'll go through, like, this is his whole life. He does this, like, periods of sobriety and then periods where he's just getting lit all the time.

[Robert Evans]

But he's one of those guys. He's pissed by people. Like doing. Doing blow, getting. Smoking weed, right?

[Sophie]

Yeah. He doesn't smoke. Seem to really, like. It's not really mentioned about weed. So I especially assume since like the Beatles and everything, he probably was fine with weed, but, like, definitely didn't like cocaine. Being around in the studio.

[Robert Evans]

He's not the cool party guy. Yeah.

[Sophie]

Yeah. By the time he married Ronnie, right. He's barely seeing his mom, but that's when his sister. Around the same time, his sister gets committed to a psychiatric facility. And she will remain there for the rest of her life. So Shirley is gone from the story now. Phil will never talk about her ever. He never discussed her. And because of that, she just kind of just disappears to his. I mean, obviously she spends the rest of her life pretty much in and out of mental health care. So she's gone.

[Robert Evans]

Right. Okay.

[Sophie]

Phil, at the same time, this is when he starts transforming his home into a literal fortress. He's got this huge mansion in Hollywood.

[Robert Evans]

Oh, cool.

[Sophie]

And he's got gates all around it. He's got dogs. He's got multiple, like, guard dogs. He's got a guy who's basically like his. His like, personal body card slash. Also, he's like, regularly, like he gets his, like, sandwiches and stuff.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Sophie]

You know, it's his dude, George Brennan.

[Robert Evans]

He's.

[Sophie]

He's around for most of this story. And a lot of the stuff that happens, he's like, involved in, in some way, but he seems to be just a pretty. Pretty decent guy. But over overall, like. Like part of his job is to monitor Ronnie. Part of his job is to monitor the visitors that come by. If, if, like, if somebody comes in, like, like a guest or whatever, he's not to leave the room while they're there and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah.

[Robert Evans]

And like, Ronnie, I knew one son of a really famous and wealthy guy and who was otherwise normal, but would periodically get really paranoid while, like, out hanging out doing normal person things that they were Going to get kidnapped like that. That was a constant. Even when there was nothing happening, no indication of it. And I guess that, like, I think that just happens to some people when they start to hit that level of, like, wealth and fame where they just can't stop thinking about all of the people that. All the things that might go wrong, all the people who might want to take it from them. I don't know.

[Sophie]

Side story, and a really correlating side. One that is music industry. I once worked for Bolt Getty, who is the great grandson of.

[Robert Evans]

Oh, like those Gettys.

[Sophie]

Those Gettys, yes. His dad. His dad is the Getty that was kidnapped in Europe and had his ears sliced off and everything. So it's like, it's understandable to carry some level of paranoia, you know, Like, I could. And, like, when he talked about it, like, it was always just like, yeah, man. Like. Like, he did not seem very trusting of people.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Sophie]

Just showing up at his place, you

[Robert Evans]

know, I mean, we were going to kidnap my friend, but we just never got around to it, too.

[Sophie]

He didn't have any money, so we just doing it for no reason.

[Narrator/Producer]

It also, like, with the whole Patty Hearst thing, became, like, a very popular.

[Robert Evans]

Right.

[Sophie]

That's such an interesting story.

[Narrator/Producer]

Yeah.

[Sophie]

All right, so. So Ronnie is restricted inside the house. She. She can't really do much. Like, she. She's not allowed to leave ever. The doors are always locked. Phil always locks the doors. He's big, big on that. So as she's. Her isolation intensifies. She began drinking heavily. Phil actually gave her the first alcohol she ever had. She did not drink until she was well into, like, her relationship with Phil, and Phil gave her the first. The first sip of alcohol she ever had. But now it's becoming, like, one of the few emotional outlets available to her.

[Robert Evans]

Right.

[Sophie]

It wasn't recreational at all. It was absolutely a coping mechanism inside an environment she could not safely leave. Like, Phil's behavior becomes increasingly unpredictable, alternating between affection, surveillance, and intimidation. He gets more and more controlling. He would tell her to stop focusing on her music, you know, and, like, be a good wife, and that's what she should do, and that's her job. And he no longer even pretends that, like, to be interested in taking her into the studio anymore. Like, she very. She has no career anymore. Being her. Like, the Ronettes are still doing things like touring and stuff like that. She's just not a part of it. Right, right. The. The group that's literally her namesake.

[Robert Evans]

The Ronettes don't have Ronnie Anymore.

[Sophie]

Yeah, they're still touring and. Because, like, you know, again, like, it's very like bands back then are very amorphous. You don't really know what a lot of them look like because you've never seen a picture of them, you know.

[Robert Evans]

Sure.

[Sophie]

So no one else knows or whatever. But because she's drinking heavily, she would, she would sneak downstairs. They had a bar.

[Robert Evans]

Right.

[Sophie]

Because Phil's. And then, you know, in the entertainment industry, people come over, they have a bar and. But he would lock it up and she would just come down and jimmy it open and drink all the. The liquor that's inside and then. Yeah. You know, And Phil obviously sees this or whatever.

[Robert Evans]

Sure.

[Sophie]

Even though she's stressed and, you know, isolated and going through this whole thing, they still are trying to have a baby, you know, but they weren't able to ever conceive. And the blame was always passed to her, despite, you know, Phil being half of that situation as well, you know.

[Narrator/Producer]

Yeah.

[Sophie]

Sensing that she was getting frustrated with life as a shut in, in 1968, for her birthday, Phil bought Ronnie a arrow. But even in the gift came the air of control. He had the car monogrammed with VS for Veronica Spectre so everyone would know that she's his possession. Right. It's like, wow.

[Robert Evans]

Because she's attacking on a livestock ear or something like that.

[Sophie]

Yes. And she, she's like, you know, musically she's known as. As Ronnie. Right. So for her to. He. He starts calling her Veronica all the time, specifically as a measure of control. Like, you are not Ronnie anymore. You are Veronica Spector. You are Phil's wife. Right.

[Narrator/Producer]

Whatever.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Harvey.

[Narrator/Producer]

Was that his real name? Harvey?

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Sophie]

Wow.

[Robert Evans]

Just the emphasis on really forcing her to like that in front of her face is interesting and speaks to some desperation on his part too.

[Sophie]

It's about to get even better. Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Sophie]

All right, so this is a quote from Ronnie from. From Be My Baby quote. It might seem far fetched that anyone would put that much energy into controlling someone else's life, but that was Phil. You've got to remember that the man was a genius and he had nothing better to do with his life after he retired from rock and roll. So turning me into the perfect wife became his major project, just as making me into a number one singer had been his goal five years earlier. So, you know, he. This is what he spends his time doing instead of music now is just being.

[Robert Evans]

Maybe there's other things he could have done with his life. With his vast fortune and access to the halls of Power and entertainment. Maybe other things.

[Sophie]

Okay, this next part is easily my favorite Phil Spector story. Like, we're gonna get into. All right, so there's going to be some very troubling things and also some extremely hilarious things that you. Will you just. All right, I'm gonna tell you it. All right, so understand that when we're laughing, we're also crying. You know, I want to make sure everybody knows that this is funny in retrospect, but in. At the time, I'm sure it was horrific and trigger warnings and all that shit.

[Robert Evans]

These are just the things you have to laugh about afterwards because how else do you handle it?

[Narrator/Producer]

Crazy. Crazy.

[Sophie]

So when showing her the brand new Camaro, he goes to the trunk and he pulls out an inflatable mannequin dressed exactly like him self. Ronnie is completely about it. Yes. And he tells her, this is for when you're driving alone so no one will ever with you. She realized that Phil has this dummy just to watch over her when she's not. When he's not with her. Yeah, he's got dummy. And like, she talks about it extensively. Like it had like his face basically, like on it, you know, like he's.

[Robert Evans]

Did you say it's a blow up dummy?

[Sophie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's an inflatable dummy. And he's got it dressed exactly like him. He's got it and he puts it in the seat and she's like, he's

[Robert Evans]

got tailored clothes for the dummy? Yeah. Hey, why does the dummy have a gun? Phil?

[Sophie]

So funny, dude. Inflatable dummy with a gun

[Robert Evans]

keeps popping himself every time.

[Sophie]

I feel like he's trying to send a message, but I just can't figure out what it is.

[Robert Evans]

Phil the dummy. You shot himself in the head. I've never seen anything like it.

[Sophie]

So just 10 days later and only four months after their wedding, Ronnie hired a lawyer to file for divorce. But fair enough. Almost immediately, she rescinds and says, like, okay, I'm just. I'm being silly. Like, I need to chill out. I'm not. This doesn't have to be this way. Like, it. It. It definitely. Oh, you know, probably, I mean, a bit of early marriage jitters because this guy's a giant asshole. Like, maybe I can fix him. You know, I'm sure many of my ex wives thought exactly the same thing.

[Robert Evans]

No comment. Well,

[Sophie]

look, I can't stand me.

[Robert Evans]

I think you're perfect the way you are.

[Sophie]

All right, so Ronnie says that Phil was never physically violent. It just. It wasn't his style. But his emotional and mental abuse was legendary.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Sophie]

When she falls and suffers a minor sprain and he has to leave town, he hires a nurse to look over her while he's gone. That sounds nice, right? He hires her a nurse while he's out of town. No, the nurse is there to forbid her from doing anything. She's forced to sit in a wheelchair and use a wheelchair while he's gone so that she can't get around or whatever. All right. And then he's not. He's not just, like, controlling her with the nurse. He's also. I mean, he is controlling, but he's also having the nurse give her heavy duty tranquilizers.

[Narrator/Producer]

Oh, shit.

[Robert Evans]

Oh, cool.

[Sophie]

So that she just has no, like, willpower to do anything while he's gone.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, she just put her on pause. He's putting his partner on pause as he leaves for the weekend or whatever. Yeah, she says, like a TiVo. Kids don't know what TiVo is. Like a Vijima game.

[Sophie]

So. Yeah. So he's literally like, she has some friends come over, and her friends are like, why are you. What are these pills you're taking? And she's like, the nurse just makes me take them.

[Robert Evans]

I don't know what they are. And they're like, dead inside. Are you okay?

[Narrator/Producer]

Nightmare.

[Sophie]

So Phil eventually lets her get back into the studio and writes a song for her, but it bombs horribly, and he uses it as justification for her to no longer pursue her music career. Years later, she realizes that Phil likely gave her a bad song for that exact reason, and she finally resigns to just be the housewife that Phil wants her to be. So he, like, he. He gives her a purposely bad song and is like, see it. It failed. You should just be a wife.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, he's trying. Great. That's like gaslighting. You really have to. That's like, on the separate level.

[Sophie]

Yeah, it's like on the national stage, literally, like, I'll fuck up my career just to fuck up your career.

[Robert Evans]

It's the opposite of what I want to do. To, like, right wingers who. Who fail out of Hollywood or whatever and try to and go into politics is just, like, make fake fans in a fake industry. Like, oh, yeah, you can fill fake Madison Square Garden. Ben Shapiro. People love to hear your speeches. Yeah.

[Sophie]

Oh, man. So. So, yeah. So she finally resigns to just be the housewife, and they adopt a baby boy named Dante.

[Robert Evans]

Okay.

[Sophie]

But Phil doesn't want anyone to know that this baby is adopted, so he sends out fake birth announcements. Being like, we welcome Dante to our family. And, like, when people ask, he tells her, like, just tell her. Just tell everybody. Because, like, obviously, she was not pregnant, and then she has a baby, right? And he's like, just tell everybody that. That it was. It was a premature birth. And. And that's why, you know, we. You didn't see me pregnant at all because I was barely ever pregnant.

[Narrator/Producer]

You know, that's not how that works.

[Sophie]

But, yeah, well, you know, it's 1967 or 8 or some shit. You know, it's like probably, you know, it's like. It's not like FaceTime exists or whatever. You know, like, you could go a good time without really seeing somebody and

[Robert Evans]

then be like, sure, you might mess up pregnancy entirely. Yeah.

[Sophie]

Yes. So she gets the. The. The. The baby and everything, but she's not allowed to be a mother to the baby at all. So they get, like, a nanny, and the nanny does all the work. And Phil's like, that's why we hired a nanny. What are you doing work for?

[Robert Evans]

So he's like, why are you doing nanny stuff?

[Sophie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she's like, you tell me to be the perfect wife and the perfect mother, and then. Then you yell at me whenever I'm trying to be a mother. She. She completely gives up on having a career. All right? And then this is from. This is from Ronnie's book quote. Besides, he pointed out who's going to take care of the baby while we're in the studio. Phil knew he had me. I wasn't going to argue against anything that might get my career back, so I accepted it. And then she goes on to say that anytime she would bring up getting back into the studio, he would either, like, be like, you gotta take care of the baby. What are you doing? Or he would like. Or he'd flip out on her and be like, I've got other things to do. I've got a call to make. I can't be doing this shit right now. Yeah, so he's like. So he's, like, gaslighting her, like, back and forth on everything that's going on in her life. You know, it's like, you know, you can't go into the studio because you got to be a mom, but you can't be a mom because we hired a nanny. Why would you be a mom? Like, you know, it's like she just has this profound sense of being basically nothing anymore from going from a mega superstar on the world stage, touring the Europe and everything, to, like, you can't Even take care of your kid. You don't even have an audience with your own child, you know, type shit.

[Robert Evans]

God, that's. I mean, that's also got to be getting him off, just the exercise of that much power. Like, I can take you from this to this. I don't know how, like direct he's talking about that, but it feels like that's got to be part of it, right?

[Sophie]

Yes. And it does seem to be like a common situation is like that power and like having that power. And Sophie, to bring up something that you mentioned before, it's like with his first wife, the reason it's. It's like he has to have control and he has to be in charge until being in charge no longer means anything to him. Right. And then that's why with his first wife, he wasn't possessive and control. And once he had her, he was like, oh, I don't care. I've proved everything I need to prove here. But now with, like, Rani, he continually needs to prove how in charge of her life he is and to himself, to everyone else. And he takes joy from that, you know? But Ronnie's memoir is full of the most hilarious stories you've ever heard. Like, so Rani is mixed race. She's black and white and Cherokee, I believe. And Phil is obviously white, Jewish, and Dante is a mixed race baby. So this makes sense for everything. But shortly after they adopt Dante, Ronnie's mom comes to stay with him and Phil sends her out to Watts to buy him an Afro wig.

[Robert Evans]

Oh, God, no.

[Sophie]

Right?

[Narrator/Producer]

No, he doesn't. He doesn't know. He doesn't know. That's not real Watts. That's not real.

[Sophie]

You're in like, you're fucking with me. Late 60s, early 70s. Well, over to Watts, Watts was.

[Robert Evans]

If you don't know, that's where you would buy an Afro wig.

[Sophie]

For sure.

[Robert Evans]

It's where you get an Afro wig. And listeners. Watts was calm, calmly, the famously the calmest place in Los Angele in this part of the 60s. Nothing happened in Watts during this part of the 60s.

[Narrator/Producer]

No, no, no. Okay.

[Sophie]

So she has to go all over Watts looking for one, and she finally finds it and she brings it back for Phil and he loves it and he starts wearing it all the time. Dude. Including.

[Robert Evans]

Oh, awesome, awesome.

[Sophie]

Including to a black church in Watts that he forces them to go to. He's like, we're going to go to this black church in Watts.

[Robert Evans]

His own Watts riots.

[Narrator/Producer]

Wait, wait, wait. Okay, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. I misinterpreted. What you were saying. And now it's even funnier because I thought you were saying he forced her to get that for the kid to wear.

[Robert Evans]

No, but.

[Narrator/Producer]

No, he forced her to get that

[Sophie]

for Phil to wear.

[Narrator/Producer]

Is there a picture?

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. Afro is there?

[Sophie]

So Ronnie says she's like, kind of bored, but Phil is loving it. He's. Hallelujah. He's dancing around and he's got. And he's wearing a gun at the time.

[Narrator/Producer]

Oh, my God.

[Sophie]

And everybody can see he's wearing a gun. And being the only white person in like, a very black church in Watts, dancing around and clapping and singing hallelujah and doing all this shit.

[Robert Evans]

Rowig with a piece. Oh, my God.

[Sophie]

I mean, could you. Could you even imagine this happening? Like, he survived through, like, the grace of people just being like, oh, that guy's crazy as fuck. There's something wrong with him. Yeah. It's so funny, man. So Ronnie, of course, continues to abuse alcohol because who wouldn't in this situation?

[Robert Evans]

I don't even call that abusing. I would just call that.

[Sophie]

That's self medicating.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, you're just dealing.

[Sophie]

So she blacks out while driving her car and she wrecks her Camaro and she doesn't get in any trouble. But Phil's then like, all right, well, you gotta see a psychiatrist. And which she does right up until the psychiatrist says also, hey, Phil, you should come in, because clearly there's some other things going on that are, you know, that are causing this stuff.

[Robert Evans]

There might be more to. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sophie]

And he's like. And he's like, no, I ain't doing that. He's like, and you ain't either. You ain't going to a psychiatrist. And so. And he tells her specifically, you're the one with the problems. Why would I go, wow, wow, wow, wow.

[Robert Evans]

What a perfectly shitty response though. That is beautiful, Phil. Well crafted.

[Sophie]

Yeah. He tries locking the liquor cabinet, but she just pries it open.

[Narrator/Producer]

Yeah.

[Sophie]

He. Eventually he forces her into rehab, which she actually loves.

[Narrator/Producer]

I'm sure she does.

[Sophie]

She's like, rehab is the shit.

[Robert Evans]

They tried to make her go to rehab, and it was great. It helped her a lot.

[Sophie]

And she. And she. Because it's like, oh, I get to be away from Phil. I don't have to be around him anymore. So now any time she starts this cycle, right? Where anytime she just gets sick of Phil, she just drinks a shitload and goes to. Gets put into rehab. And then she's like, cool. Two week vacation from Phil, right? And then pops right back. Okay, fine. I'll come back. I can deal with him again.

[Robert Evans]

You know, like, so she doesn't have an alcohol problem as much as she has a Phil Spector problem.

[Sophie]

Yes, completely just a Phil Spector problem.

[Robert Evans]

Gotcha. Gotcha. Speaking of things that will make you go to rehab.

[Narrator/Producer]

They tried to make me go to rehab.

[Robert Evans]

I have to go to rehab every time we do an advertisement because I'm addicted to our advertisements.

[Sophie]

I should probably go to rehab. But rehab for quitters says the T shirt I saw at the state fair when I was 11.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That state fair taught you a lot.

[Sophie]

Thank you, Carney.

[Robert Evans]

Parents, come back and we'll learn some things you can't learn at a state fair unless it's the Texas one.

[Sophie]

With the American Express Platinum card, you can access over $3,500 in annual value with benefits and eligible purchases across travel, entertainment, and more. There's nothing like Platinum. Learn more@american express.com Explore Platform Platinum enrollment requirements, monthly and other limits. In terms of Know the famous author Roald Dahl? He thought up Willy Wonka and the bfg, but did you know he was a spy? Neither did I. You can hear all about his wildlife story in the podcast the Secret World of Roald Dahl. All episodes are out now.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Was this before he wrote his stories?

[Sophie]

It must have been. What?

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Okay, I don't think that's true.

[Robert Evans]

I'm telling you, the guy was a spy.

[Sophie]

Binge alter 10 episodes of the Secret World of Roald Dahl now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

You can have opinions, you can have, like, a strong stance, and then there's

[Sophie]

your body having its own program.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

I'm Dr. Maya Shanker, a cognitive scientist and host of the podcast A Slight Change of Plans, a show about who we are and who we become become. When life makes other plans, we share stories and scientific insights to help us all better navigate these periods of turbulence and transformation. There is one finding that is consistent, and that is that our resilience rests on our relationships. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change.

[Robert Evans]

We have to be willing to live

[Sophie]

with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Listen to A Slight Change of plans on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Robert Evans]

Mom, can you tell me a story?

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

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[Sophie]

Was she brave?

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

She was tired, mostly. But she went to Carvana.com and found a great car at a Great price. No secret treasure map required.

[Sophie]

Did you have to fight a dragon?

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Nope. She bought it 100% online from her bed, actually.

[Robert Evans]

Was it scary?

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Honey, it was as unscary as car buying could be.

[Robert Evans]

Did the car have a sunroof?

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It did, actually. Okay, good story, car buying you'll want to tell stories about. Buy your car today on Carvana. Delivery fees may apply.

[Robert Evans]

And we're back.

[Sophie]

All right, so she's drinking. She's a drunk. She's going to rehab.

[Robert Evans]

She's a specter. She's addicted to spill. Spectre.

[Sophie]

Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

And she's going to rehab.

[Sophie]

One night, Phil takes Ronnie down to the basement of their house.

[Narrator/Producer]

Don't like the story. Or rather, don't like this way. This is starting.

[Robert Evans]

I don't love that. I don't love that.

[Sophie]

He takes her down to their basement and he shows her a golden glass casket. And he says, this is where you will be if you ever leave me.

[Robert Evans]

Oh. Oh.

[Sophie]

The level of commitment to this intimidation, I cannot begin to stress. He had a custom made casket. Right. He had them bring it into his house. Like, he presumably left it there for years.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. Only he just kept it waiting. Waiting until he knew he needed the big guns to pull out.

[Sophie]

Like, this is. This is high level mental abuse.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Sophie]

This. This is like, what, an unlimited budget? Like, this is why I would never date a millionaire.

[Robert Evans]

Right.

[Sophie]

Or a billionaire.

[Robert Evans]

Oh, right, because they can do crazy shit to you.

[Sophie]

Yeah. Like, they're going to be able to, like, pay somebody to just follow you around for an entire year when you. When you leave them, you know?

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Sophie]

It's dark.

[Robert Evans]

I'm just imagining, like, protecting that casket. Like, he's not pissed. And she wants to go downstairs, and he's like, wait, no, no, no. I got to take care of that.

[Sophie]

You can't go down there. You can't go down there.

[Robert Evans]

I don't want you to see a Christmas gift. Yeah, something like that.

[Sophie]

She's like, I'm just gonna go get a jar of spaghetti. He's like, no, no, no, no.

[Robert Evans]

Not in the basement.

[Sophie]

Not in the basement. Make George get it. All right. So she would claim that the doors of the house were always locked and she was only allowed to leave during their anniversary. Phil kept her shoes so she could never leave the house without his approval. For her 26th birthday. She's 26 years old. For her 26th birthday, Phil takes her to Las Vegas to see Elvis Presley. And presumably so they could do karate in the fucking back room together.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. I would imagine they're doing karate maybe showing off the guns they always carry. Yeah.

[Sophie]

So she's stoked because, you know, she always wanted to meet Elvis and they're a big time couple or whatever. And basically Phil abandons her in the crowd and it's like, I'm going to hang out with Elvis, go to the hotel room.

[Narrator/Producer]

Such a menace.

[Sophie]

I'll see you later.

[Narrator/Producer]

He's such a. Have a good night.

[Robert Evans]

That didn't make it into the new Elvis movie. That's tragic.

[Sophie]

Him and Phil Spector just in the back, just.

[Robert Evans]

Dude. Karate.

[Narrator/Producer]

So crazy.

[Sophie]

In 1969, in the midst of the Beatles well documented decline.

[Greasy Will]

Side bastard.

[Sophie]

Side bastard. Alan Klein asked Phil to come to London to help assemble the disaster of the Let It Be recordings. So for people who are the dumbest human beings alive and don't know everything about the Beatles.

[Robert Evans]

Sure, okay, fair enough.

[Sophie]

The, the Let It Be album was actually recorded before Abbey Road. Right? It was recorded.

[Robert Evans]

I actually didn't know that it was

[Sophie]

recorded before Abbey Road, but it was a mess, right? They were fighting. John is on heroin Hardcore. By the way side story, do you know who I heard got John addicted to heroin?

[Robert Evans]

Was it James Taylor? Oh, okay, I can see that. Yeah.

[Sophie]

James Taylor of Fire and Rain is the guy who got him addicted to heroin. Well.

[Robert Evans]

Cause if James Taylor offered me heroin, I would definitely do it.

[Sophie]

Yeah, for sure.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, for sure. I would. Absolutely. I can see that. Yeah.

[Sophie]

Literally, if like my brother offered May heroin, I'd probably do it.

[Robert Evans]

Not quite there, but certainly James Taylor. Yeah.

[Sophie]

But yeah, so, so they're a mess, right. They're falling apart. And Phil is brought in to save these recordings. Right. Well, and, and there are, I believe they're already done with, with Abbey Road having recorded Abbey Road. And Let It Be definitely comes after, you know, like it was. But it was assembled by Phil essentially. He, he, he flies in literally just for this job. They're like, here's a bunch of tapes. Just do something with it. And it's why that album is generally, is generally like kind of, it's. It's kind of wild, right? There's like these huge orchestrations, but also like these like slap dash little like weird interlude sections and talking and jokes and all that. They just needed to fill out some space and it was part of the creativity of the whole thing.

[Robert Evans]

Right, Right.

[Sophie]

Phil hates flying, which I read a story somewhere and I wish I tried to find it so hard, but I read a story one time about Phil freaking out on a private plane that they had to turn around and come Back, like, almost immediately after taking off because he's terrified of flying all the time, but he has to fly back and forth.

[Robert Evans]

Has to do with. I mean, do you think any of his fear is related to. I mean, like, the day the music died, Right, the famous plane crash that killed Buddy Holly and the Big Bob.

[Sophie]

Big Bob and Richie. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Robert Evans]

Ye.

[Sophie]

Yeah, very likely. I mean, like, I think there was a lot of musicians that died around this time in plane crashes. Otis Redding dies in a plane crash right around this time, you know, like. And Phil feels every one of those deaths intimate. I think it's also a bit of, like, a control thing. I think Phil is a control freak in the truest term of a control freak.

[Robert Evans]

That makes total sense.

[Sophie]

So I definitely think that that was a bit of what was going on. But I think also too, he just. Just has a natural fear of flying. So he arrives in London and he immediately starts specterizing the Beatles recording. He added strings to it. Dense production to McCartney's long and winding Road, which if, you know now, like, McCartney hates that. McCartney released his own version of Let It Be that was like de. Specterized, basically. Like, he took all of his production out and released that individual project as like, his own thing. Because he hated what Phil Spector did to it. In fact, he was so enraged, he sent a letter to side bastard Alan Klein demanding that the arrangement be minimized. Sophie, can you show the letter? This is probably the angriest letter that Paul McCartney has ever written. He says, dear sir, this is to Alan Klein. Dear sir, in the future, no one will be allowed to add or subtract from recording of any of wa my songs without my permission. I had considered orchestrating the Long and Winding Road, but I decided against it. Therefore, I want it altered to these specifications. Gives a list of some stuff. One is strings and horns, voices. All noises to be reduced. Vocal and Beatle instrumentation to be brought up in volume. Three is harp to be removed completely at the end of the song. And four is Don't Ever Do It Again. Signed, Paul McCartney.

[Narrator/Producer]

Don't Do it again.

[Robert Evans]

And this has to be like an unstoppable force and movable object thing. Because, like Paul McCartney, very rarely would anyone. I imagine, at this time. It's pretty rare for people to tell Paul McCartney, other than other Beatles, other than other Beatles, what to do. And the same has to be true of Spectre.

[Sophie]

It does speak very highly of who Phil Spector is. That he managed to get away with all of this. Yeah. That he could do this to the Beatles, arguably the biggest band it's 1969. They're the biggest band in the world. World.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Sophie]

This is their last album to be released collectively and, and Paul would never work with Phil again but both Lenon and Harrison loved him. Lennon and Harrison both loved him. Thought he did wonderful job.

[Robert Evans]

No good. There you go. Yeah, makes sense.

[Sophie]

He's mad. Paul is so mad but, and, and a lot of people claim that he ruined the Beatles. Right. But Let it be sold 1.2 million in the first two days as a single and it was the Beatles final number one in America earning them a Grammy. So you know there's certainly, I honestly I listen to Paul's, I listen to Paul's version of the Long and Winding Road versus Phil's. The maybe it's nostalgia that I just always feel that way but Phil's just feels more, more correct for what's going on. It feels still very George Martin Y It doesn't feel like they stripped the soul of the original like or the mid decade Beatles albums like the 66, 67 stuff. It feels, it feels real. Right, Right. So, so I, I, I get what Phil was on and I, I can respect that. I think it was still a really great album. There's some really cool stuff about it. So they finished work on Let It Be and Spector set to work on another Beatles project this time the solo effort of George Harrison. This is when Phil starts actually drinking again. Normally he's the perfectionist in the studio but George matched his perfectionist attitude and he, you know, he's scared he's not going to be able to compete with the other Beatles. Right. Like Paul will release a record or John and it will overshadow him so he makes his first record the record

[Robert Evans]

like he, I imagine he wasn't worried about Ringo, but yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sophie]

No one, I mentioned John and I mentioned Paul. That's what I said very clearly mentioned

[Robert Evans]

just John and Paul.

[Sophie]

Nobody's worried about Old Octopus under the Sea.

[Robert Evans]

Look everyone, I figured out how to make a dimmer switch. I don't know why. That's my Ringo.

[Sophie]

So, so this starts a Jekyll and Hyde personality with him. He would endlessly abuse studio personnel for his own humor. One night he gets so drunk he falls off his chair and hurts his arm and then he can't go to sessions for like a few days. Classic. Classic. Also, who hasn't, right?

[Robert Evans]

Who hasn't?

[Sophie]

Who hasn't had to miss work for a day or two because you got drunk and fell?

[Robert Evans]

I've got suddenly ill and had to delay podcast recordings with Sophie. Of course.

[Sophie]

For sure. Absolutely. Because we're adults, and that's what adults do.

[Robert Evans]

That's right.

[Sophie]

Eventually he. He returns to America. He leaves George to finish the album. He kind of is like, you know, and George complains that he's being inattentive and. But. And he doesn't. He doesn't like that Phil is doing this, but he does regardless. Finished his record and All Things Must Pass was released and spent seven weeks at number one. And he's the first Beetle two chart post breakup. Right. Good for him. He is. I mean, All Things Must Pass is a banger of a record. It is. It is top to bottom. It's. It's a no skip album. It's amazing. And it's nothing like the Beatles. Which is the most interesting thing about it is, like, the fact that he put out a record that was not reminiscent of any of his work, really, with the Beatles in any way. He was very Ravi Shankar influenced at this point in his life. He's into spiritual. He's literally doing Hare Krishna songs and stuff, you know, like, so. So, yeah, for that to be seven weeks at number one, pretty impressive. You know, it's a great album. In September of the same year, John Lennon returned from America. He was staying in America. He returns from America. And he brought Phil into Abbey Road Studios to record what would become the Plastic Ono Band album. In contrast to Phil's previous work, he listened to John's direction and made a record of sparse arrangements. It perfectly matched John's words and the tone of the lyrics and everything. So in John, Phil found a kindred spirit. And the same for John. Right. John had this belief that tortured geniuses.

[Robert Evans]

Right.

[Sophie]

Are always the tortured part of that. Right. They have. There's something that makes a person a genius, and it's usually incredible tragedy. And, of course, John had his own mother die. John was a victim of tragedy himself, oftentimes in the Beatles.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, he sure.

[Sophie]

You know, he had a hard life as well. And so he kind of thought both sides of this. Him and Phil, kind of kindred spirits. Right, right. You know.

[Robert Evans]

Right. Yeah. We're both kind of giant assholes to the women in our lives. This probably helps us bond.

[Sophie]

Yes, exactly.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Sophie]

Yeah, I get you, bro.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. I, too, am a piece of shit sometimes.

[Sophie]

So Klaus Vorman played bass on the George Harrison record and the John Lennon record. And he. He said there's a stark contrast of tone between Phil for George Harrison and Phil for John Lennon. You know, interesting and also Mick Brown, who wrote the book Breaking down the Wall of Sound that I referenced for a lot of this. He mentions that Phil got along with Yoko Ono really well as well. And he relates this a lot to the same thing as the way Ike Turner gave Phil his space to work when, when he was working with Tina, you know, like he was so respected that even the controlling member of their lives was like, yeah, yeah, let Phil do his thing, you know.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, yeah, that does say a lot.

[Sophie]

That says a, a lot, a lot. You know, like that's, that's, those people are famously controlling of the others careers, you know. So in the meantime, Ronnie is in New York, she thinks her career is over and Phil flies her out to London and says, hey, actually George wrote a song for you, he wants you to sing it. And so she flies out there and, and she gets into it and, and unfortunately it flops again. And she's like, all right, yeah, yeah, I'm done, I'm done, I'm done. Right?

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Sophie]

John Lennon's album did not flop, but only managed to reach number six in America and number 11 in the UK, which is a pale comparison to George's success. And with John seeing what he perceived as the weaker writer, success over his, over his right, he pulled back on releasing music and starts supporting Yoko's career more. At the time they reunite to work on Imagine, which we, we listened to an exact copy of Today and. And despite it being a legendary piece of work, it wasn't really well received and Phil retreated again into semi retirement and did not record any music for over a year. On Christmas 1971, Phil surprised Ronnie with a set of five year old twin boys who he had adopted without her knowledge. He went through Jesus.

[Robert Evans]

Awesome. Surprise adoption. It's better than surprise knocking someone up and having to surprise kids.

[Narrator/Producer]

Yeah, I don't know.

[Robert Evans]

Or is it worse?

[Sophie]

Actually, sort of.

[Robert Evans]

It takes a lot more thought to adopt secrets.

[Sophie]

You gotta sign so much paperwork to adopt kids.

[Robert Evans]

It might be. You're right, it might be worse. It might be worse. She's coming back.

[Sophie]

She thinks they're adorable, but she doesn't really want anything to do with them because, you know, his behavior is becoming increasingly erratic. He's worse and worse all the time. She's just, she like her whole life is just, just story after story of horrible things. Like I could do an entire episode just on Ronnie Spector and the horrible things that happened to her.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, cool.

[Sophie]

Phil's behavior. In January of 1972, he's arrested at the Daisy Club. In Beverly Hills after a woman called the police to report that a small man in a karate jacket pointed a gun at her.

[Robert Evans]

That sounds like our philosopher.

[Sophie]

That's the description. A small man in a karate jacket. That's, like, the most insulting thing I can possibly imagine being called. I love it.

[Robert Evans]

I love it.

[Sophie]

Police arrived promptly and found Spectre, Beverly Hills. You know, they arrived promptly, find Spectre with a handgun in his waistband. And he was charged with the misdemeanor and received a $200 fine. Wow, that seems like the good old days of brandishing a weapon and getting a simple misdemeanor fine.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, if only just.

[Sophie]

A few months later, in the middle of the night, Rani escaped with the help of her mother. She was forced to escape barefoot because Phil didn't let her have shoes, and she had to leave behind her kids and all of her possessions.

[Narrator/Producer]

Wow.

[Sophie]

But, Robert, do you know who won't force you to abandon your home in the middle of the night barefoot with nothing to your name?

[Robert Evans]

Well, hopefully not the sponsors of this podcast, because they're kind of how I got my home. Yeah, they could giveth and taketh away, I suppose.

[Sophie]

And we're back. I'm taking control of this whole situation. All right. I love it. So when we last left, our hero, his wife Rani, had escaped into the night with no shoes. In fear for her life, she filed for divorce. And so, and surprisingly, Phil walked away completely amicably and gave her everything that she asked for.

[Narrator/Producer]

Okay, weird.

[Sophie]

Psych.

[Robert Evans]

Psych. Okay, okay, okay. You hit me for a second. You did. No, he's a weird enough guy.

[Narrator/Producer]

I don't know. No, he was in that.

[Sophie]

He was an absolute asshole about every single aspect of their divorce. Just days after she fled during a telephone call, Phil informed her that all her clothes were in a trash can on La Cienega Boulevard. Been there. She files for custody of Dante, but not the twins, for obvious reasons. And cited the dangerous nature of the mansion and Phil's collection of guns and temper for the reason. At the time, Phil kept numerous guns around the house and had up to five guard dogs. As I mentioned, the mansion was surrounded by tall fence, barbed wires, signs everywhere. He's super paranoid, obviously. Yeah. So Phil retaliated by claiming that Ronnie was unstable. And what did he use as evidence of her instability? Why those frequent trips to rehab that she took?

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. Oh, my God. And she barely is even covered in guns all the time, so she's clearly not thinking about those kids. Safety. I've got three on me right now, and I Handed one to the kids.

[Sophie]

So the court orders Phil to pay for Ronnie's temporary lodging and provide her with support. He wrote a check for the first month, but the second month, he had three armed guards deliver $1,250 payments in nickels to her lawyer's office. What?

[Robert Evans]

Oh, to be a dick. Just to be a dick. Sure. Yeah.

[Sophie]

For the record, 25,000. That's 25,000 nickels. 25,000 nickels. And it weighed 275.6 pounds. I did the math.

[Narrator/Producer]

He sucks.

[Sophie]

Three petty, three armed guards, two of them with shotguns, to deliver twelve hundred and fifty dollars in nickels.

[Robert Evans]

Now, look, have I been petty before? Have I, for example, been treated badly at a private gym that I went to and mailed them a box that exploded into glitter? Sure, sure. Absolutely.

[Narrator/Producer]

Allegedly.

[Robert Evans]

And I mailed anime shit when I had a bad experience at a small business that I specifically hated? The owner, perhaps. Would I do this? Well, maybe.

[Sophie]

Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. I might actually do this again. You know, it's like.

[Robert Evans]

This sounds pretty funny.

[Sophie]

Yeah. I do think.

[Robert Evans]

I just hope I never owe anyone that much money.

[Sophie]

Yeah. But here's the fun. To me, this is the funniest thing, right? Because, like, I mean, I didn't do the math on what the quarters or pennies situation was, but he chose nickel, Right. He could have chosen diamonds. He could have chosen pennies. Yeah. Pennies would have been way more. I assume that he was like, okay, well, that's a lot of pennies, right? And he was like, maybe too much. And they were like, well, actually, if you do that, we're gonna have to have four armed guards. And he was like, that's a waste of money.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Sophie]

At the beginning of August, at the behest of her lawyers, Ronnie checked herself into psychiatric care and spent several weeks there. Then on September 14, her lawyers were called to the Beverly Claret Crest Hotel to deal with her in an intoxicated condition. Heavily. With the finger quotes here. Right? Intoxicated condition. She was lit. She said she drank a lot and she was just screaming in the lobby, right?

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, probably. Okay.

[Sophie]

A few days later, they're called again when Ronnie nearly killed herself after passing out with a lit cigarette and setting the bed on fire.

[Narrator/Producer]

Oh, my God.

[Sophie]

She drank a full fifth of vodka by herself.

[Robert Evans]

Oh, honey.

[Sophie]

And then said she was getting a little nap.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Sophie]

Nap with a cigarette. She was unharmed, fortunately, you know, for the most part. But she didn't have to go to the hospital and everything.

[Robert Evans]

That's good.

[Sophie]

That.

[Robert Evans]

That did kill a Lot of people back then. Yeah.

[Sophie]

You know, but obviously she's. She's going through this.

[Robert Evans]

Is.

[Sophie]

This is taking its toll on her, for sure.

[Robert Evans]

Side note, that's part of why they made. They changed how they made both beds and, like, couches. There's new fabrics they use on all of those because of how many people burnt to death smoking in bed and on the couch.

[Sophie]

What do you mean, Robert? You mean that all those spontaneous combustions that just stopped recently might have been a manufacturer's issue?

[Robert Evans]

The internal mystery. What caused the human combustion?

[Sophie]

Was it all lifelong smoker? Was it a lifelong smoking?

[Robert Evans]

Was it smoking next to cocktails that were just pure liquor?

[Sophie]

I don't know. Weird. Crazy how that happens.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Sophie]

So right after this, she tries to fire her lawyers. Right. And end her divorce proceedings. Right. But in one of the rarest moments of lawyers being amazing people, they refuse to be fired. They say, we don't think that you are making sound decisions. This is not what you want. Our conversations with you have said that this is not what you want. You are under mental distress right now, and we want to make sure that you continue with this. With this divorce proceeding because this person is bad for you. And. And. And she does. And she. She rehires them or whatever the hell, and they move on.

[Robert Evans]

Okay.

[Sophie]

She reversed course again. Continues with the doors. It takes another 18 months to finalize the divorce. She received a $25,000 payment in addition to $2,500 a month under the condition that she never disparaged Phil in public. She also would. Phil would receive control over her master recordings and most of the publishing leverage and the ability to limit Ronnie's access to her own hits.

[Robert Evans]

That's fucked up. That's fucked.

[Sophie]

Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

I mean, it has been great before, but that's. That's really bad.

[Sophie]

He takes away her ability to make money, making her dependent on his money. Yeah. Right. And then also, she has no control, so he can do whatever he wants.

[Robert Evans]

And it kind of robs her, too, like, not just of her money, but of, like, her future. The things. Probably. Well, and also just like, probably some of the stuff she's proudest of, like this stuff that she made that was hugely successful and influential. She has no control. Like, that also has. As a creative. That's like a knife. Another knife.

[Narrator/Producer]

Yep.

[Sophie]

Yes.

[Robert Evans]

Got a lot of knives in her.

[Sophie]

Absolutely. Yeah. So he has to send her a check every single month. And every single month. Oh, she doesn't get custody of the children. And he has to send her a check every month. And Every single month, he sends her a check and he writes fuck off on the back. So. So she has to write her name underneath so it says fuck off, Ronnie Bennett every single time she cashes a check.

[Robert Evans]

This man. This man could give grasses. Yeah.

[Narrator/Producer]

Like, smallest man in the world.

[Robert Evans]

I have. I have never, ever heard of this. This level of pettiness in a relationship.

[Sophie]

Super petty. Yeah, super petty. But Ronnie's free, you know? And she looks back on this, you know, it's like she. She says she escaped their divorce and she was happy to escape it with her life. Like she was. She was happy to be done.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Sophie]

So shortly after the divorce, Spectre was brought in again to work with John Lennon. Things had been extremely rough for John Lennon in the years following the Beatles breakup. He's fighting the government for his right to stay in America. He's fighting his bandmates, he's fighting his wife for money. Like, there's. Everybody is fighting for his money, right?

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Sophie]

In one of the strangest situations ever, Yoko sense that John was working towards cheating on her. And rather than lose him completely, she opted to pawn him off on one of her friends, May.

[Robert Evans]

Interesting.

[Sophie]

Is her name.

[Robert Evans]

I don't know any of this.

[Sophie]

Yes. So it's basically a sanctioned affair, right? It's like, you're gonna do this anyways. Let's just. May, will you just, like, be his little fling for a while or whatever? He's. He's living outside of his means. But he convinced the label to give him $10,000 to record an album of standards, and he enlists Phil to produce.

[Robert Evans]

Okay.

[Sophie]

So when he worked with John previously, he's on their turf and he's. And he's got to do their things, right? But now they're in Los Angeles and he's. He's doing his thing, right? So he brings in his favorite musicians, including the sons of his idol, Barney Kessel. Remember Barney Kessel, whose mom embarrassed him in front of.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sophie]

He brings in his kids, right? They come in and play on this record. We're going to talk about them in a minute. He developed a joy for amyl nitrates. Robert, you a big fan of amyl nitrate?

[Narrator/Producer]

Like poppers?

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. Coppers.

[Sophie]

That's right.

[Robert Evans]

Who doesn't love a good amyl nitrate? Every now and again and again and

[Sophie]

again, May Pang remembers that he just smelled like old socks all the time.

[Robert Evans]

Is it because he's huffing them out of socks?

[Sophie]

No. I don't know. I don't know.

[Robert Evans]

I don't know.

[Sophie]

But she just Says he smelled like old socks.

[Robert Evans]

Okay.

[Sophie]

Or. Or VCR cleaner, I guess. I don't know. Anyway, he'd show up wearing a holster, Right. With a gun in it. He'd show up and he'd dance around with his guns off. He's 35 at this point, Right? Yeah, it's like he's. He's in a. He's a grown ass, man.

[Robert Evans]

He's a grown man. Yeah.

[Sophie]

John.

[Robert Evans]

He.

[Sophie]

John would drink vodka straight from the bottle. And because he's depressed. And Phil would drink this wine called Manischewitz, which is basically like. It's like a Jewish ceremony wine, you know?

[Robert Evans]

Right. You can get it in most grocery stores. I don't recommend it. It doesn't taste good.

[Sophie]

Nobody says that it tastes good. I've never had it. And I was gonna just get a bottle of it for the episode. But you know what? I'll just drink whiskey instead. We'll play everybody's favorite game.

[Robert Evans]

It's not expensive, but it's not good. It tastes like grape juice with alcohol in it. But also the grape juice is bad.

[Sophie]

Right?

[Robert Evans]

Right. Yeah.

[Sophie]

So really shitty wine. They'd explode into arguments about the direction of the music. And things were often hectic. One night, Elton John comes by and he's hanging out for like a little bit and. And he's like, I gotta go. And he leaves. And he tells the guy that brought in. He's like, what the fuck was going on? They're like, yeah, they're just like that. They're just. And he's like, I'm so glad we left. Like, this sucks. Yeah, Phil would. Because they're arguing all the time. Phil started dressing in ridiculous outfits. He'd show up dressed like a captain or dressed like a, you know, like a pirate or like crazy, like just random outfits all the time. He'd show up dressed like a waiter or something, you know, just look ridiculous. But then eventually they'd get drunk and then they'd fight. One night, Chuck Berry comes by Phil's house to meet with John. And John's a big fan of Chuck Berry. Like, a lot of the Beatles music came because of Chuck Berry. Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

I mean, yeah, obviously he helped invent the kind of music they do.

[Sophie]

Phil is just in the other room playing music so loudly that no one can hear anything. And so Chuck just gets mad and leaves.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Sophie]

Which, by the way, presumably so that he could go watch pee pee tapes or traffic an underage girl across state lines.

[Greasy Will]

Cause he's a side bastard.

[Narrator/Producer]

Yeah.

[Sophie]

If you don't know Chuck Berry is, he was a founder of rock and roll. Other than, you know, Big Mama Thornton and, you know, Sister Rosetta.

[Robert Evans]

He helped to found rock and roll. He found a lot of the bad things. Rock and roll musicians.

[Sophie]

He is one of the reasons why the man act was so successful was because he actually was trafficking a 14 year old girl across state lines for purposes of sex.

[Narrator/Producer]

And he got convicted, which is crazy.

[Sophie]

Yes. He's sentenced to three years in prison for said crime.

[Robert Evans]

He was a black man. So he got convicted as opposed to being a president? Yes, yes.

[Sophie]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Robert Evans]

As things go, as things tend to go.

[Sophie]

So Phil would always play games with John's, you know, fragile mental state and everything. He'd, he'd call him or John would call him when he was supposed to be at the studio and he'd be like, yeah, I'm on my way. And then he just wouldn't show up, you know, And John's like wasting money on this studio shit. Which by the way, we find out later that Phil has been kind of grifting the whole, the whole thing. He's paying for the sessions himself so that he can maintain control of things and so that he can bill John's label. It's a whole thing. We'll get to it in a second. But. So one night John gets blasted, right? He gets shit faced and him and another guy, his bodyguard take him to Lou Adler's house where John was staying. And they tied him to the bed. And John thinks they're gonna rape him. He thinks they're gonna sexually assault him. And he freaks out, out like he loses.

[Robert Evans]

Okay.

[Sophie]

Bill gets a black eye. Like it's, they, they fight, they physically fight. Like, I don't know. John was obviously very, very drunk. Like they don't, it's not, it's not insinuated that that was actually, that a sexual assault was actually going to happen. But for whatever reason, John thinks that that's what's gonna happen and he freaks out and they, they, they tie him to the bed and.

[Robert Evans]

Probably not a good way to make him not think that's happening. Yeah, yeah.

[Sophie]

And then he eventually like gets out or whatever, but they leave and, and Phil has to wear makeup on his bruised eye for a couple days and stuff.

[Robert Evans]

Jesus.

[Sophie]

The sessions are so crazy that A and M studios evicts them from the studio. They're like, Phil's waving a gun around during sessions. This is too, too much shit.

[Robert Evans]

Right? Yeah, fair enough, fair enough.

[Sophie]

Something is going to happen.

[Robert Evans]

We don't think our insurance covers whatever you're doing.

[Sophie]

Yes. Right. And so they kick him out and they head over to Record Plant, which is especially hilarious if, you know the. So Record Plan is this famous Hollywood studio. There's a lot of record plants around the world, but the Record Plant in Hollywood is kind of a famous Hollywood studio. Especially currently. It just shut down, like, a year ago. But prior to that, it was like the Party studio. It was the Arizona State University of Studios. So the fact that they got kicked out of A and M, which is now owned by John Mayer and called Chaplin Studios or something like that, which is a very professional, fancy studio to go to Record Plant, that's basically like, yeah, we let people party. This is where at Record Plant, Phil fires his gun into the ceiling of the studio. So Record Plant's like, yeah, we'll have you. And like, first night, he's like, now

[Robert Evans]

what is the context? Is he trying to emphasize a point? Is it using it like a punctuation mark? Is it just an accident?

[Sophie]

So he gets into an argument of some type with Mal Evans, who is a famous, like, kind of fifth Beatles situation. He's. He's like their roadie. He's their fixer. He does everything. He's hanging out with John Lennon, and he is very trusted by the group. Right, gotcha. And. And he gets into an argument with Phil, presumably about like, hey, man, you gotta stop doing some dumb shit or whatever.

[Robert Evans]

And, hey, man, did you try to molest John Lennon? Something like that.

[Sophie]

Phil has, like, a measure of anger, pulls his gun out and he says, accidentally fires his gun into the studio. Which says something, right?

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Sophie]

John turns to him, like. And he's like, phil, if you're gonna shoot me, shoot me, but don't fuck with me ears. He's like, I need them to listen with.

[Robert Evans]

Oh, my God. What a great response. Honestly, that's a pretty good response. Yeah.

[Sophie]

If you're gonna shoot me, shoot me. But like, I need my ears, bro. Don't shoot beside my head, dick.

[Robert Evans]

That's pretty cool. I gotta give it to him. That's pretty cool.

[Sophie]

Everybody thinks Phil is just shooting blanks in these guns, right?

[Robert Evans]

Nope.

[Sophie]

But the next day, Mal Evans shows up to John Lennon's house with the bullet from the ceiling. He's like, here's the bullet from last night. And John's like, what bullet? And he's like, the bullet that he fired into the ceiling. And he's like, he's got bullets in that thing?

[Robert Evans]

That's a real gun? Yes, it's a real gun. Hey.

[Sophie]

Right, so shortly after that incident, John returns to New York City, and one night he receives a phone call from Phil claiming that the studio had burnt down and they lost everything. So John's like, whoa, what. What was going on? He calls the studio and they're like, ain't no fire. What are you talking about, man? There's no fire here. And then so he's like, what the fuck is going on? And then a week later, Phil calls again, this time ranting about helicopters surrounding the house. Right? He's like, there's helicopter surrounding the house, Right? And he says, but don't worry, I got the tapes. I got the tapes, right? And so John eventually discovers, basically, Philip paid for the entire session, which means, in the recording world, if you pay for it, you own the tapes. The tapes are released to the person who pays for them, right?

[Robert Evans]

Okay.

[Sophie]

You own all of John Lennon's work if you own those tapes. Right? And so they get a bill from Phil's label for $90,000.

[Robert Evans]

Oh, God.

[Sophie]

And they're like, what the fuck? Apparently, he's like, he's paying for all the sessions. And then he's doing the old classic rebuild at like. Like, 170% of the cost of whatever it is type thing, right?

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That Hollywood shit. Yeah.

[Sophie]

So when Bob Mercer of EMI Capital went to Phil's sunset office to retrieve the tapes, Phil chased him down a flight of stairs with an axe.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, he's back to being cool again.

[Sophie]

The album wasn't released until 1975 with only five tracks produced by Spectre and another eight that John recorded without him. So, yeah, that'll get, obviously, a mess. So I mentioned before, Barney Kessel's two sons, Dan and David, they start hanging out with Phil during the Lennon sessions. And this is the first time that they come to his house. And the first time they come to his house, he greeted them wearing a.38. And he asked him if they like guns.

[Robert Evans]

Of course. Yes, Absolutely.

[Sophie]

They said, yes, of course. Because, you know, who doesn't? And he takes them into the backyard in Hollywood, remember? And they spend a few hours shooting at old records. They. They idolize him. They love this dude. Like, they think he is the epitome of the rock star mentality. Right? And to be fair, you know, he's like, in his 30s. He's shooting guns, he's partying with John Lennon. Like, he is kind of a rock

[Robert Evans]

star with all sorts of crimes. Sure.

[Sophie]

He's kind of a rock star, right?

[Robert Evans]

Definitely. Yeah. He.

[Sophie]

He starts treating them like his kids, right? Which is Fucked. Because he has kids and he is currently locking them in their rooms and they're under the. They're under the supervision of a governess who doesn't let them do shit.

[Robert Evans]

Right.

[Sophie]

Meanwhile, he take the Kessels to Muhammad Ali fights and even took them to Vegas to see Elvis and brought them backstage after the show to hang out, which is super fun because he just didn't take Ronnie backstage.

[Robert Evans]

Right, right. Not his wife, of course.

[Sophie]

In their eyes, Phil can do no wrong. They love him, dude. They. To this day, they always like, hey, Phil was the best. Right? You know, I mean, he's a legend at this point. You know, he's a legitimate legend. So he's veering out of control with his drink in his relationship. At one point, this writer, Roy Carr, is brought to LA from. From London with the task of writing a book about him. One night, in between telling fantastical stories like, Bruce Lee was my bodyguard once and how he had worked as an undercover agent in Paris. Sure. Spector announced that he needed to pee, and he gets up and walks out, only to come back wearing no shirt and a revolver in his waistband and playing the accordion.

[Robert Evans]

So one thing we've learned about him is that no matter what he is or isn't wearing, he will have a gun that's just.

[Sophie]

Always got a gun on him.

[Robert Evans]

Always got a gun on him.

[Sophie]

Always got a gun on him. And he's always doing something wild.

[Robert Evans]

He's like Frank from Always Sunny.

[Sophie]

Yes, yes, very much. Picture him as skinny Frank, a very little man with a gun. He's a little man with always. So I started blasting him, just ready to shoot. So Carr says he couldn't tell what was fact or fiction when it came to Phil, but he does know that, like, without a doubt, Phil has intense loneliness issues. Like, he would get mad anytime. Car would prepare to leave. Like, he'd be working all day, taking notes, and he'd be like, okay, all right, well, time to go. And. And he would go, no, no, no, stay for a little bit longer. Stay, don't leave. Don't leave late. So he believes that Phil is even following him around town. One night, Phil's assistant was sent to pick him up. And they get in the car, and she looks in the rearview mirror and she sees Phil and the Kessel brothers in a Cadillac with shotguns. And they just chase them, chase them all over Hollywood until they escape, right? And then. And then they just. There's no explanation given for why they did this. Like, the next day, they're like, phil, why did you guys chase us around with shotguns last night? And he's just like, what are you talking about?

[Robert Evans]

What do you mean? I didn't do that.

[Sophie]

I didn't do that.

[Robert Evans]

Like, me, I always have a little gun.

[Sophie]

Another time, Phil picks up Carr and the Kessel Boys with some mysterious people in the car, and they fill the car with pump shotguns and rifles, and then they go to this Cantonese restaurant where they ate dinner by themselves, all roped off in this little section. And then after dinner, they just go back to Phil's house, and Phil shot at a tree with a pistol for, like, an hour, right?

[Robert Evans]

Oh, yeah, okay, sure. So he just sounds like Phil.

[Sophie]

He's just living la vida loca.

[Robert Evans]

Brought a lot of bullets with him

[Sophie]

to shoot for an hour, though. Yes, he absolutely did. When Kara returns to England, Phil tries to give him a pistol, and he's like, I can't take a pistol through customs.

[Robert Evans]

Every country doesn't just let you take guns there, Phil.

[Sophie]

So funny. In 1974, Phil is brought in to produce for Cher. You know, Cher is in his life, but Cher is no longer with Sonny Bono. Now she's with David Geffen. And David Geffen had become her manager as well as, like, her label head, as well as her boyfriend, as well as, like, every. He's every. Right?

[Narrator/Producer]

Does he, like, even have any connection to the music industry or. No.

[Sophie]

David Geffen.

[Narrator/Producer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sophie]

I mean, but here's. So here's the thing. Phil hates him because he's like. He's a kind of a nepo baby in the situation. Like, he doesn't know music. He doesn't. He's not a musician. He didn't come up that way. He came up through, like, the business side of the industry. And he gets lucky, starts dating Cher. Baby, basically becomes her manager, becomes a label head, starts getting all these positions of, like, authority and shit. And Phil hates him. Phil despises him. Right?

[Narrator/Producer]

Interesting.

[Sophie]

And one night, David Geffen tells Phil, hey, man, maybe you should try this with. With Cher's song. And Phil punched him in the face and told him to get out of here, you fucking f. Slur.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Great.

[Robert Evans]

Okay. Ooh.

[Sophie]

Cher is like, phil, what are you doing? Chill the fuck out. And Phil does, right? And they just go back to work, right? And that's, like, the type of way Phil is. He'll just haul off and punch somebody in the face in the studio, call him a slur, and then get right back to work. All in a day's work, you know?

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. All in a Day's work. Look, he puts his gun on one gun at a time. The same that you do.

[Sophie]

Yeah, same as all of us. Phil dated after Ronnie left. One of those women is a name, is a woman named Devra Robitaille. She starts as his assistant, then becomes his lover, right? She was married when she starts working with him. But Phil's crazy hours and, like, constantly having to, like, answer ruins her marriage. And then one night after. After they're, you know, kind of flirting, office flirtation or whatever, Phil walks her to a car, gives her a kiss, and now, you know, now they're dating her. But he's always mistreating her. He'd be super sweet and loving, and then all of a sudden begins screaming and calling her name. One night during an argument at dinner, he dumps a bowl of noodles on her head. So they go through this cycle where it's like, yeah, he's just a shit dude.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, Noodles.

[Sophie]

They're at dinner, and he's just like,

[Robert Evans]

yeah, being a huge ass.

[Sophie]

Take noodles. Yeah. And so she noodled her noodle.

[Robert Evans]

Sorry.

[Sophie]

So he get mad. Boo, that dad joke sucked. So she'd get mad and quit. And then he'd send her, like, a dozen roses, and she'd, you know, forgive him and come back. And it just keeps kind of doing this, right? It's this, like, constant, like, revolving door of Phil Spector where he does something shitty, and then he gets super mad and they have a big argument, and then he apologizes the next day or makes no mention of it whatsoever. Like, sometimes she'd, like, he'd do horrible things, and then just the next day be like, what are you talking about? I didn't do that.

[Robert Evans]

Sound like me? Yeah.

[Narrator/Producer]

Ladies don't take back shitty little men.

[Sophie]

Yeah. Yeah. One night, tempers flared and he grabbed a shotgun and put it to her temple, telling her he would kill her if she left. She calmed him by telling him he's being silly and that he should open the door and let her leave. But as soon as he does calm down, she bolts out of there, right? But she does say she never thought Phil would actually kill her, but she did think he might by accident. Spoiler alert.

[Robert Evans]

Okay. Yeah.

[Narrator/Producer]

Not much better, but yeah, babe.

[Sophie]

In November of 1975, a parking attendant claimed that Phil pulled a gun on him and told him to get the fuck away from me before driving away. He pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor brandishing a firearm, and two years of probation provided he not own any more firearms. Robert, can you guess who kept owning Firearms.

[Robert Evans]

I'm gonna guess it's Phil Spector. And I want to remind everybody, we talk about him carrying a gun everywh at this period of time, there weren't really concealed carry laws in most places. Like, there were some ways if you were like a bodyguard, there were ways people could legally carry concealed guns in cities and stuff, but it wasn't like it is today. My point is that Phil was committing a felony basically every time he walked out the door.

[Sophie]

Yes, from this day on, he is absolutely committing a felony because he's not supposed to be carrying any more guns.

[Robert Evans]

He's not supposed to have any of them.

[Sophie]

Them. He's not supposed to have any guns.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Sophie]

So Phil Spector, then in the mid-1970s, he. He starts working with Leonard Cohen, right? And this is crazy for everybody in the world, right?

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Sophie]

This is like. This is like, what's the. What's the Jesse Wells, the. The little folk kid that sings in the field? This is like him working with Max Martin, right? It's like. It's like. It's, you know, it's like, what. Why would he be with, like, a pop producer? This doesn't make any sense.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Sophie]

So everybody's like, already thinks it's kind of strange. Right. But Spectre thinks like, hey, maybe this will be like a really crazy inspired thing. So they make the 1977 album Death of a Ladies Man. The sessions quickly deteriorated into chaos, fueled by Spectre's alcohol abuse, erratic behavior, and obsession with dominance inside the studio. Cohen later described Spector as volatile and deeply intimidating, recounting an incident in which Spector allegedly pressed a loaded gun against Cohen's head during a recording session and declared, leonard, I love you. Cohen responded, I hope you do. All these rock stars have the coolest responses to Phil Spector putting a gun to their head.

[Robert Evans]

Really funny. Yeah. And honestly, of all the rock stars I expected to be cool with a pistol pointed at their skull. Got to be top of the list.

[Sophie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. In another incident, Spectre pulled a gun on the violin player Bobby Bruce, which, by the way, the violin player. Like, yeah, I pulled. I pulled a gun on the guy. Yeah, I was. I was pulling a gun on a. A daycare teacher, man. Like, you're, like the most innocent person you can find. It's like there's extra bad that you're. This guy went to school, man.

[Robert Evans]

It's like a gang enhancement thing. On your sentencing where Leno, you pulled a gun on a violinist. That's an extra five years.

[Sophie]

Yes, yes, absolutely. So Spectre took control of the final mixes and didn't even allow Leonard Cohen to hear them. He didn't allow him to be present. He layers all of his sounds into it and over Cohen's stripped down songwriting, which is what he is known for, and. And they made a record that Cohen doesn't even stand on himself. He doesn't think that. That it's very good. But Cohen said of this, of his time with Phil, quote, in that state, he found himself, which was post Wagnerian, I would say Hitlerian. The atmosphere was one of guns. I mean, that's really what was going on. Guns. The music was subsidiary, an enterprise. People were armed to the teeth and everybody was drunk or intoxicated on other items. So you were slipping over bullets and biting into revolvers in your hamburger. There were guns everywhere, biting into the price.

[Robert Evans]

That's one of those things where I have to assume that's like a joke for flavor, but also maybe someone hit a revolt.

[Sophie]

A hamburger. Somebody was like, hey, hey, Leonardo, I

[Robert Evans]

got revolvers and some big hamburgers.

[Sophie]

Hey, hey, Leonard, I got you a hamburger. Oh, cool. Thanks, man. What.

[Narrator/Producer]

What.

[Sophie]

What is going on here? When it was released in 1978, it was critically panned. Everybody hated it. Spectre claimed. And this is one thing I love about Phil Spector is anytime you shit talk Phil Spector, he will shit talk back and say, like, yeah, I got. I got hate mail from all eight of your fans. It's just so, so disrespectful. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. You guys really love it. All eight of them.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sophie]

So while he's cultivating this brilliant and eccentric producer, his family home is horrible. He treats his kids horrible. He. Oh, real quick, when I was mentioning the Barney Kessel kids, Dan and Dana David, how old did you get the sense that they were. They're driving around shooting shotguns out of Cadillacs.

[Robert Evans]

20, maybe.

[Narrator/Producer]

Yeah. Early, late teens, early 20s, 11 and 13.

[Sophie]

Oh, no.

[Narrator/Producer]

Why is he hanging out with children?

[Sophie]

When I was reading this, I was like, this is wild, man. Like, this is crazy. Like, he's hanging out with these, like, teenagers. I got them, like, same thing, like 17, 18, something like that. Maybe even early 20s. The way they're referencing the things that they're doing, driving around, shooting guns. They're going. They're hanging out together, right? Yeah, no, I looked it up and his kids were born in, like, in like the late 60s. They were like 11 and 12 years old. Let's go crazy. Meanwhile, he's treating his own kids horribly. They have the Governess is always on them. They don't. They're not allowed to do anything. And he's very rarely involved in any actual parenting, except for when he is forcing them to simulate sexual acts on women so that they learn how to be men. Yikes.

[Robert Evans]

One of those kinds, huh?

[Sophie]

Yikes. He's doing the classic, like, no, get over there and do it. Brings a girl home from the strip or whatever, and it's like, lay down and like, takes control of the whole thing and, like, is making them simulate. They all report having gone through this.

[Robert Evans]

It is that I. I wonder, is that more out of like a po. Him. Him wanting power, him getting off on it, or just him being such a narcissist that, like, if my kids are bad at sex, it reflects badly on me. So I'm gonna make goddamn sure they

[Sophie]

know what they're doing, you know, very fairly. His kids kind of stayed out of the. The limelight and they don't talk about a lot of this stuff. And I did see a few interviews with them. Like, they resurface in later years and one of them tries to write like a book, I think, but it never gets off the ground. But it basically whenever, like, the dirt comes out, it's. He's horrible to them. He treats them the same way as he treated. Ronnie's threatening them all the time. He's making them do crazy stuff. Yeah, they. They all develop lifelong issues with trust, identity and emotional stability. Like. Yeah, it's just. It's not. There's no guidance. It's all. It's all performance and it's all possession. Right?

[Robert Evans]

Right.

[Sophie]

When John Lennon was murdered in cold blood in front of the Dakota Building in New York City on December 8, 1980, Phil was once again thrown into a world of depression. But this time, he took it as a sign. He always said that John moved too, too easy. John was too, too careless with how he acted. And it would be his downfall one day. And this just reaffirms it for him. Like, he's going to get killed if he doesn't travel with bodyguards and guns and all that stuff.

[Robert Evans]

So right

[Sophie]

by the 1980s, he starts withdrawing from public life. He moves out of his Hollywood mansion and bought a house in the suburb of Alhambra he dubbed the Pyrenees Castle.

[Robert Evans]

Okay.

[Sophie]

It's a huge French style mansion. It's enormous. Like, it's out in Alhambra, you know, it's out of the city of Los Angeles, as was his style. He surrounds himself with guard dogs and armed guards and fills the house with Guns. Guns that he's not allowed to have.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, illegal guns, sure.

[Sophie]

So for a brief period, Spectre attempted sobriety and acquaintance describe him as calmer and more reflective. The stability, though, is temporary. Every time he relapses, he gets crazy again. And I think a large part of this stability was due to his relationship with Janice Zavala. Phil first met her in the 60s when she was a teenager and eventually hired her to work for his label. After his split with Ronnie, he would date her on and off again for the next like 15, 20 years and eventually he would give birth. She would give birth to two twins, Nicole and Philip Jr. And contrary to his relationships with his other kids, who are now adults at this point, Phil treated him wonderfully. His daughter Nicole says that, you know, he was a doting father, that he loved spending time with him, that he was always around for his kids. But in 1991, this is now well removed from his music career. In the, in the late 50s, early 60s and into the 70s, Philip Jr dies from leukemia and Phil, Phil goes back into deep depression and insanity. Yeah, well, of course, Nicole remains devoted to her father throughout the rest of her life, always claiming that he was her hero. He never raised her voice to her. She says he was amazing.

[Narrator/Producer]

Yeah.

[Sophie]

Phil rarely grants any interviews. He remains a recluse, rarely leaving the house and never without a bodyguard. He hired Hal Blaine, who's the drummer from the wrecking crew that he had employed. He hired his daughter to be his day to day, you know, manager or whatever and was generally pretty kind to her. And everything's set for Phil to just ride off into the sunset and be forgotten as quickly as the Nobody's right until Mick Brown shows up in his life. Mick Brown is the author of the book that I was describing that I got the primary source from all of this. Mick Brown's book is one of the most authoritative, you know, biographies on, on, on Phil Spector. It is, it is brilliant. It has everything. It's a very good book. I highly recommend. He's the primary source of my research and he's probably one of the, besides me, probably one of the most knowledgeable people on Phil Spector in the world. And he managed to get an interview with Spector in December of 2002. He recorded the entire interview on tapes and they painted a picture of a deeply troubled and eccentric man who was likely suffering from mental illness. His article was titled the Mad Genius of Phil Spector and questioned whether the madness was part of the genius or just something that had gone unchecked because of his genius. It was a deeply intelligent and honest look at Phil's life. Life which angered Phil. He broke what many said was a decade of sobriety and began drinking and acting erratically again. On February 2, 2003, just a week, two weeks after the article came out, Phil Spector began his evening at Dantana's, a long standing Hollywood restaurant and bar known for attracting entertainment industry regulars. He took a high school friend out for dinner and began drinking heavily before taking her home and then returning to Dantana's and starting to drink with his waitress from the night.

[Robert Evans]

Oh boy.

[Sophie]

He was heavily intoxicated by the time he left for the House of Blues in Hollow.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, when you, when you leave with your friend and then come back to keep drinking with the waitress, that's, that's, that implies a level of drunk. That is.

[Narrator/Producer]

Yeah, but if you're, but if you're gonna do it, it's at Dantana.

[Sophie]

Hit the Troubadour for a little bit.

[Robert Evans]

You know, it's a good night.

[Sophie]

So it was then that he would begin his fateful interaction with the hostess of the foundation room in the House of Blues, Lana Clarkson. And this is the end of this episode. We are about to get into one of the most storied and important nights in musical history. But for now we are going to plug our pluggables which I have a podcast. It's about music stuff. It's the most poorly produced podcast in the entire world. We need a Sophie so bad. We would crush with a Sophie but we are incapable of doing things ourselves so we just forget to do it. But I do have a podcast. It's called that sounds about right. I have a recording course that teaches you the principles of recording. And I have a label. And by the time this song comes out, our very first artist on the label will release her single. So please check that shit out. Her name is Violet Lux. The link will be in my bio Greasy Will on Instagram. It'll be all over the place. But I am a rebel of the music industry and I need your support. So love me, support him and care for me. And also you are on all sorts of the Internets as I write. Okay. And. And you also sell merch at places.

[Robert Evans]

Some places probably. Presumably

[Sophie]

we're both Googleable. Just be an adult and use Google, man. Get those. Do you know what I think is interesting? Everybody keeps discussing about how ChatGPT uses like a tablespoon or a teaspoon of water every time you search. Nobody is mentioning that Google is automatically using AI to search your answer. So Googling now is also using that same amount of water. Let's be mad about everything.

[Robert Evans]

Type in minus AI with your Google searches and it'll cut that part of it out. I don't know if it actually reduces the energy usage, but at least you don't have to see the summary.

[Sophie]

It's still logging all your information and keeping it all. And it knows everything you're doing. So that's why I stay off the real Internet. That's right.

[Robert Evans]

That's right. That's right. I still use Netscape Navigator. It does not work well.

[Sophie]

That's what I'm relying on is my technology being too outdated to spy on me.

[Robert Evans]

That's right.

[Sophie]

It's the secret old Mozilla Firefox.

[Narrator/Producer]

This is the end of the episode, guys.

[Robert Evans]

Okay, we're done. Bye.

[Narrator/Producer]

Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, Visit our website coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

wherever you get your podcast.

[Narrator/Producer]

Full video episodes of behind the Bastards are now streaming on Netflix, dropping every Tuesday and Thursday. Hit Remind me on Netflix so you don't miss an episode. For clips in our older episode catalog, continue to subscribe to our YouTube channel, YouTube.com behindthebastards we love about 40% of you. Statistically speaking. This is an iHeart podcast.

[Sophie]

Guaranteed Human.