← Behind the Bastards
Behind the Bastards
Part Three: The Pol Pot Episodes: How A Nice, Quiet Kid Murdered His Country
01:29:08
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- [00:02]
Robert Evans
Call Zone Media. Holy crap. Welcome back to behind the Bastards, a rare three part episode. You motherfuckers. You lucky sons of bitches. And rat bastards are getting three episodes this week. I am now legally your father. You're welcome. Hi, Sophie. Hi, Andrew T. How are you guys doing? Did that intro have us all good.
- [00:28]
Sophie From Mars
You don't need to be responsible for people.
- [00:30]
Robert Evans
We are.
- [00:32]
Andrew T.
I like that. That's like leprechaun rules, like episodes three. I'm your father.
- [00:38]
Robert Evans
I don't think you're. I don't.
- [00:40]
Sophie From Mars
I'm going to say something really. I don't think you're their father. I think you're their daddy.
- [00:44]
Robert Evans
No, that feels a lot worse for me, actually.
- [00:47]
Sophie From Mars
Yeah, but I think that's what that legally means is you're not father, you're daddy.
- [00:52]
Robert Evans
I'm like. I'm like one of those dads that, like, should pay child support, but instead I live on a boat in the harbor of fucking New Orleans. And are you a libertarian in this scenario? No, no, no. But I definitely don't believe in the moon landing. This is behind the Basterds Again, a podcast. You're enjoying part three of our Pol Pot episodes. And basically the way it goes here, this folks, we have a massive audience and I'm always trying to do the most I can to please the most people, which you can't do with every episode. Some people don't like certain kinds. Some people don't like the cult leaders. Some people don't like the dictators. Some people only want the dictators. And like, you know, we've started doing a lot more four parters over the last couple of years, in part because there were guys where I felt like I'm kind of doing a disservice to try to limit this to two episodes. And a lot of people really like the four parters and say, this is my favorite part of the show. And a lot of people say, I don't like. I prefer the two parters. So we try to, like, go with variety, right? So everybody's regularly getting what they want. And I didn't. So I didn't want to do a four parter for Pol Pot. And then I wrote 14,000 words on him and was like, God damn it, Robert. Because there is really that much to say. So this is all to say, I didn't want to break this up over two weeks for the people who are tired of four parters. So we're just giving you three episodes this week, so you're fucking welcome. Done.
- [02:19]
Sophie From Mars
Would you say we're not like all the other girls.
- [02:22]
Robert Evans
We're a lot like all the other girls.
- [02:25]
Sophie From Mars
I'm not.
- [02:25]
Andrew T.
We're also going to be in that.
- [02:27]
Robert Evans
All girls are beautiful. Okay?
- [02:29]
Andrew T.
To get through the words, we're going to be talking super fast. So if you put this on like 0.66 speed you can make yourself a fourth episode.
- [02:37]
Robert Evans
I'm actually going to slow down a lot just to yeah, no it is.
- [02:44]
Andrew T.
Ryan here and I have a question for you. What do you do when you win? Like are you a fist pumper?
- [02:50]
Robert Evans
A woo hooer? A hand clapper?
- [02:52]
Andrew T.
A high fiver?
- [02:52]
Robert Evans
If you want to hone in on.
- [02:53]
Andrew T.
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- [03:01]
Robert Evans
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- [03:10]
Robert Evans
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- [03:15]
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- [03:43]
Robert Evans
Ah, come on. Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient. Still, using yesterday's tech Upgrade to the ThinkPad X1 Carbon Ultra Light Ultra powerful and built for serious productivity with Intel Core Ultra processors, blazing speed and AI powered performance that keeps up with your business, not the other way around. Whoa, this thing moves. Stop hitting snooze on new tech. Win the tech search@lenovo.com Lenovo Lenovo unlock AI experiences with the ThinkPad X1 carbon powered by Intel Core Ultra processors so you can work, create and boost productivity all on one device. Listen to the new Audible original the Big Fix A Jack Bergen Mystery starring Jon Hamm as the hard boiled private eye cracking his latest case of murder and mystery. Four years after he left the FBI, Jack Bergen is pulled back into the fray by an old flame who persuades him to investigate a homicide and clear the name of an immigrant accused of murder. Co starring Ana de La Regera, Omar Epps and Aaliyah Shockat. Plus a cameo from John Slattery, created by John Mankiewicz and directed by Aaron Lipstadt. Listen to a gritty and winding tale that delivers both meaning and mayhem with a solid punch. Go to audible.com thebigfix and listen. Now.
- [04:59]
Sophie From Mars
I was gonna say.
- [05:00]
Robert Evans
Hey, Robert. Yes.
- [05:01]
Sophie From Mars
Did you know that Better Offline and Weird Little Guys won their Webby categories?
- [05:07]
Robert Evans
Did they? Did they did. Better Offline and Weird Little Guys, two new weekly podcasts launched by coolzone last year. Both won Webby's in their first year.
- [05:19]
Sophie From Mars
Yes. Yes, they did.
- [05:20]
Robert Evans
That's astonishing. Amazing. Yeah. You know, I'm very proud of our little team who, despite being very, very small in terms of, you know, the broader podcasting universe, has way more listeners than most of the other podcast networks out there and actual fans, because we don't just buy a bunch of downloads like some people I'm not going to name, but we could just, like, bleep out and pretend that I accused whoever the fuck of doing that. So, yeah, you know, we're. We're. We're the. We're the. We're the Vietnam and, you know, let's say our enemies and the Pod Save guys or the Khmer Rouge of podcasts. Right?
- [06:02]
Sophie From Mars
They also.
- [06:03]
Robert Evans
They also want a Webby. I saw. I know, I know. I don't know why. It's literally just like the only other podcast network I can remember off the top of my head, usually. So as far as we shit on them a lot. I don't know.
- [06:14]
Andrew T.
Empires go podcast empire a lot. Lot smaller body count than most empires.
- [06:20]
Robert Evans
Yeah, well, the exception of the Joe Rogan podcast, which he actually might wind up creeping up on old Pol Pots numbers. You give him some time and some more testosterone shots.
- [06:29]
Sophie From Mars
Yeah, yeah.
- [06:31]
Robert Evans
So as I noted at the end of the last episode, Pol Pot had made it to the standing committee in 1960. And then the party leader of the Communist Party of Cambodia, a guy named Samauth, was assassinated three years later, probably by the King's security services, although we don't know. So some people think maybe Pol Pot orchestrated it. But anyway, he winds up in charge as a result of this. And, yeah, initially, the people that he's fighting against, as he's, like, leading this increasingly large and capable communist insurgency, is King Sihannock's monarchy, right? Which he battled out of a headquarters named Office 100. And this is a mobile headquarters, Right. We're talking about a jungle insurgency. So he's moving constantly to stay ahead of the King's intelligence, which is in a Large part provided by his American allies. Right. Because for the US his fighting against the Khmer Rouge is kind of part of the broader struggle against communism in Vietnam. And, you know, to be fair, the Vietnamese are still running a decent amount of what the Cambodian Communists are doing. Even in this period in, like, the mid-60s. They hold a lot of sway because they have a lot. They're a major source of weapons. Right. They're more organized. But the Cambodian party is getting a lot more independent during this period of time. And Saloth Sar is kind of making it his business to both increase that independence and to make friends with the people he needs to beg for guns because they're not really capable of manufacturing weapons in the jungle. Sure, yeah.
- [08:08]
Andrew T.
That's a fucking very, very vivid setup. What was the name of the headquarters again?
- [08:13]
Robert Evans
Office 100.
- [08:15]
Andrew T.
That fucking rules.
- [08:16]
Robert Evans
Yeah, it's very cool stuff. I mean, it's always when you're talking about, like, an underground insurgency, you've got this secret leader. Nobody know knows his name. Again, it's a real bummer from a narrative standpoint. I would have had him born Pol Pot and switch to Saloth Sar. Cause that's such a cool name. Like, it's such a scary name, but whatever.
- [08:39]
Andrew T.
That's how they change it up. He's subverting expectations and.
- [08:43]
Robert Evans
Yeah, exactly.
- [08:45]
Andrew T.
A few further dominoes will fall.
- [08:47]
Robert Evans
Just like Rian Johnson's Star wars movies. And like Rian Johnson's Star wars movies, Salazar travels to Beijing in order to beg for weapons. That is true, actually. That is partly true. Yes. And so he is like, he is. And he's talking with, obviously with Ho Chi Minh City or with, you know, with the Vietnamese Communists. And they are coordinating, but never to the extent that the west kind of imagines. Right. Even though they're very dependent on the Vietnamese for a while, they never like it. And there is absolutely no desire among the Cambodian communists or among Pol Pot to be tightly aligned with Vietnam. This, like, fantasy that the US has that China and all these Southeast Asian states are going to form like one unified communist bloc is. Is just absolutely. Anyone with the slightest degree of a knowledge of any of these people would be like, what the fuck are you? No, they hate each other.
- [09:45]
Andrew T.
I mean, just even meeting four different Asian people anyway, you could probably. You could probably extrapolate some of this shit.
- [09:53]
Robert Evans
Talk to a Vietnamese dude about China. Like, seriously, have a. Have a conver fucking station. In 1970, Sehannuk's regime is overthrown because, again, the war is not going well for him. He's not particularly good at running Cambodia. And a bunch of these kind of right wing leaders in the military with the backing of the United States gets pissed off. So when the king, like, I think he's actually technically calling himself the Prince because he gives up his royal title to quote unquote, run for office, whatever, Sihannock leaves the country on like a diplomatic visit and there's a coup. And the coup is headed by this guy called Lon Nol. Lon Nol is actually the brother of Salothsar's childhood best friend. And obviously like, because of that, Lon Nol's brother is a major part of the regime Lon Nol sets up. And he's like, yeah, probably if Salath, if the communists win, my friendship with, you know, Salazar will protect me. It doesn't, by the way, this guy gets the fucking shit liquidated out of him. And the fact that there's a family connection, you know, or a deep connection between Salazar, who's leading the communists and, you know, the family of Lonol does nothing to the brutality of the conflict that follows. Now a lot of this comes directly as a result of Lon Nol's policies, right? This is not just Pol Pot is running a very brutal insurgency, but it's brutal. In response to the sheer violence unleashed by Noel in order to try to maintain control. As soon as the monarchy is abolished, the so called Khmer Republic begins calling on the US to continue and extend their bombing campaign in Cambodia, which had started clandestinely and very illegally in 1960 under Nixon as a way to try and stop Vietnamese Communists from being able to supply themselves. Right? There's this idea, it's accurate idea that Cambodia is a big part of how the Viet Cong are supplying and this is where they're retreating to in order to regather their strength. That is essentially accurate. And we are bombing them for years and pretending not to. And now when Lonol is in power, we don't have to like lie because we're being invited right now. We're being invited by this coup that we set up, right? The US would ultimately drop more than half a million tons on Cambodia in a four year period of time. And for an idea of like how many explosives that is, I mean, that sounds like a lot, right? 500,000 tons is a lot of weight. That's more than the total weight of bombs dropped on the Empire of Japan during all of World War II. And right, here's the thing, these bombs are being dropped both to deal with like Viet Cong tunnel Complexes and some of their bases. And to stop the Khmer Rouge. The Khmer Rouge has no industrial base. Their weapons have to be smuggled in. They are not like building tanks. They don't have cities that are, like, functioning as part of an industrial core. The Empire of Japan was one of the most powerful industrialized states on the planet. And we drop more bombs on Cambodia than we did on them, Right? Like, right. That's. Jesus Christ, it's fucking. And we nuked Japan, famously, right? Like, the degree of force that we deploy on these guys is outrageous. And we get fuck all for it. Like, this could not have been a less useful use of force. Not that that would have made it, like, moral. If, like, it had won us the war, it wouldn't be. Okay, I'm not saying that. But it, like, this is just like the biggest L A military, one of the biggest Ls A military ever took is our operation.
- [13:39]
Andrew T.
But also somehow even more pointless than some of the other wars.
- [13:44]
Robert Evans
And that's the thing. I tried to make this clear in the Kissinger episodes. It's not just how evil he is. Cause he gets depicted as this evil genius a lot. He sucked so much shit at a lot of what he was doing, right? Between 150,000, 300 Cambodians probably died. That's a credible death toll. Although there's a lot of arguments that both of those numbers either is much too low, right? That it's significantly higher than 300,000. You can find some lower estimates. 150 to 3 is kind of, you know, somewhere that's close enough for what we're talking about here. It's a crime. It's a historic crime against humanity. Right? Most of those dead are civilians, including a shitload of little kids who are just incinerated from the sky by the United States Air Force. So the fact that we're doing this, the fact that we are incinerating entire villages, we're just lighting little kids on fire from the sky. Makes people angry. The folks who don't die and who previously had their ambition in life had been to, like, you know, be a peasant, feed my family, live a life. You know, like, be a normal Cambodian person. Their ambitions changed after their families get incinerated. And suddenly they're like, you know what would be cool? Killing a bunch of people in revenge. You know, getting my vengeance. And so a lot of peasants start flocking to the banner of the Khmer Rouge, which had not been super popular previously, right? It had been growing before. This bombing campaign escalates, but not massively. The Bombing campaign's primary result is to superchar support for the Khmer Rouge because wouldn't you want to shoot somebody?
- [15:29]
Andrew T.
Yeah, that is, it is. I mean, that's eternally the best recruiting tool.
- [15:35]
Robert Evans
Yes. And I'll never say anything to mitigate or reduce the complicity and the responsibility of Pol Pot and the leaders for the crimes that are about to happen. But the crimes are being committed directly on the ground by a lot of these young people from the jungle who grow up under this bombing campaign and then join the gorilla. And I can't, no matter how hideous things are, I can't really blame them. Which isn't saying that it's okay or justified. It's just saying that like you ruined people and they went insane. It's extremely explainable. No one's capable of acting rationally with the damage that you have done to them, you know?
- [16:19]
Andrew T.
Right.
- [16:20]
Robert Evans
With the exception again of these people at the top. Guys like Pol Pot who do not grow up are not raised being bombed or, you know, living under these horrible conditions in the jungle. These are, these are people of privilege, of education who had the opportunity to pick a different path and did choose horror. Right. And that's where my blame lies here. I want to quote from an article for the Mass Violence and Resistance Research Network by David Chandler. Next quote. And this is kind of describing how the Khmer Rouge develops as a result of all this. The small scale guerrilla movement which he had launched against the Hennek's government in the late 1960s developed with Vietnamese and Chinese backing, into a full scale resistance army fighting the American backed Long no regime in Phnom Penh. At the same time, Saar developed the distinctive ideology which made the cpk, that's the Communist Party of Cambodia, very different from other Marxist Leninist parties. He mistrusted the working class, relying instead on the poor peasantry whom he saw as the incarnation of Rousseau's noble savage. His party functioned like a sect and some authors underline that his communism was colored by Cambodian Buddhist structures. Its members were required to renounce not only material possessions but also spiritual ties. The ultimate goal was to crush individual personality and replace it by unquestioning adherence to the collectivity. Discipline was ferocious, security omnipresent. Saar abhorred the limelight, preferring to operate from the shadows and using multiple aliases. Poke Hay, 87, Pole, Granduncle, Elder Brother, First Brother, and in later years 99 or Pym. Yet his fanaticism was masked by great personal charisma. People who met him remembered his winning smile and considerable talent as an orator.
- [18:10]
Andrew T.
I mean, a sick ass list of nicknames.
- [18:13]
Robert Evans
It is pretty cool.
- [18:16]
Andrew T.
I know. I'm fixating. I'm fixating on all the names, but they're fucking rad.
- [18:21]
Robert Evans
Yeah, it's hard not to, right? For whatever reason, I think 87 is my pick.
- [18:29]
Andrew T.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What is 87 based off of? Did you find that out?
- [18:32]
Robert Evans
I don't actually know. I probably could have figured it if I. But I didn't come across that in my reading now because this is exercise for the listener. Yeah, find out what 87 means now because this isn't a military history podcast and the overall story of Cambodia during this period is so much more detailed than we can get into. I'm gonna have to yada yada a lot of how the rebellion, you know, succeeds. I love when you yada yada.
- [18:57]
Sophie From Mars
Please.
- [18:57]
Robert Evans
Yada yada, yada, yada, yada, yada yada. The gist of it is Lonol's government was only capable of holding the line against the communists with US backing. And even then, not all that well. By the early 1970s, it had become clear that there was an expiration date on that assistance. The Khmer Rouge grew larger with each atrocity by the right wing government and their allies in areas where the Rouge took power. Everyone old enough to fight was drafted into the military and everyone else was put to work. The all black garb of the peasantry, which had just kind of been a traditional thing in Cambodia, became the only acceptable outfit to wear. You're literally not allowed to dress differently. Those who refused to serve were executed. By 1973, most of rural Cambodia was in Rouge hands. And I gotta say, the one aspect of the Khmer Rouge I could have done great with is just kind of wearing black pajamas all the time. Like, I got that shit on lock, baby. Like I'm wearing this like sport coat thing. But it's just black pajamas under this motherfucker.
- [19:54]
Andrew T.
I'm saying this is the tragedy of the YouTube era is this fucking sport coat when, you know, Robert could just be full jamming it out.
- [20:04]
Robert Evans
Yeah, yeah, and I am. This thing doesn't reduce the comfort. It's fine, don't worry, don't worry. I'm pole potting under this.
- [20:11]
Sophie From Mars
Jesus Christ.
- [20:12]
Andrew T.
That's what he says. That's what he says every episode. It's not just this one.
- [20:16]
Robert Evans
The final straw for Lon Nol's regime is when Prince Sahana, hiding in exile, announced his support for Pol Pot's rebels. Now we've done we did a two parter, one of our very first episodes on Notre Dam Sahanik. He sucks, assuming, listen to those episodes as to why. But the reason he does this is he believed that, like, you know, he thought this might give him a shot at returning to power, right? If I back these guys, clearly they won't last and eventually I'll be able to make my way back in, right? What really happens is he strengthens the Khmer Rouge at a critical moment because again, people, the peasantry, feel very strongly about the royalty, right? And that still has not been busted. Even though he really sucked ass when he was actually running things. He does this right as the US is starting to pull out their assets and things fall very quickly. Think about kind of how long the government of Afghanistan lasted as the US pulled out, right? That's kind of what we're seeing here. On April 17, 1975, Lon Nol's army collapsed entirely and the Khmer Rouge entered Phnom Penh. Now you gotta remember at this point, you know, when they take the capital, the fighting has been going on in parts of Cambodia for 20 years or more. People are fucking exhausted. And is always the case in times like this. There was an optimism among like a lot of regular people that like, look, I don't know so much about these Khmer Rouge guys, but the war's over, maybe things will get better, right? There is this hope. And that hope is crushed very quickly because Pol Pot and his comrades, it's not even that they don't want to go back to normal. In their minds, going back to normal is a death sentence, right? And again, this is kind of what messes with a lot of people's casual understanding of what's happening. Because you would think, well, obviously these guys have to hate the US More than anybody else, right? Not at all. The case the people. Pol Pot's obsession is Vietnam. That is the real enemy. Not capitalism, not the United States, not the West Vietnam. Saigon fell to the NVA not far from when Phnom Penh did, right? And because of this, because Vietn Vietnam has won its war too. There's this immediate widespread paranoia among the Khmer Rouge leadership that the Vietnamese are going to digest their meal of southern Vietnam and then they're immediately going to take this big army they've got with tanks and aircraft and all sorts of modern weapons that the Khmer Rouge does not really have access to, and they're gonna cross the border and they're going to invade Cambodia and they're gonna take us out and make us nothing. But a tribute stand state. Right. Like that is the immediate fear. And the only way to resist this future, to have a chance of defeating Vietnam and maintaining Khmer autonomy, is to rapidly change the country both in terms of how food is produced and how like to. And to do this kind of. They're very motivated by these ideas they'd taken from Mao that kind of became the great leap forward in China of like, well, what if we do industrialism? But it's like everybody's backyard is helping to like make different sort of industrial products. Right, right.
- [23:24]
Andrew T.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The, the, I guess it's just DIY approach to making, you know, your AKs and your plate armor and such.
- [23:33]
Robert Evans
And you can kind of track that with guns, but not like the guns you need to win a modern brawl. Right, right. You're not going to be like making an SBG9 in your backyard or whatever. Fucking shit. Speaking of making.
- [23:47]
Andrew T.
Yep.
- [23:48]
Robert Evans
Recoilless rifles in your backyard, our sponsors will teach you how they love helping people maintain modern military. I don't know, whatever they're.
- [24:00]
Andrew T.
Freedom.
- [24:00]
Robert Evans
Yeah, freedom. Fuck.
- [24:04]
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Robert Evans
Pharmacy before my prescription is ready.
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Robert Evans
Those were raisins, right?
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- [25:29]
Sophie From Mars
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- [27:04]
Robert Evans
Ah, and I miss back. Okay, so cities like the Capitol have no place in Pol Pot's radical view of the future of the country, which needs to be immediately changed on a fundamental level in order to survive and defeat the Vietnamese. So there's this plan that's hatched by Pol Pot and the leadership of the party to completely reform Cambodian society in order to to make it capable of surviving. And Pol Pot names this plan Year Zero. In April of 1975, they declare this openly. And this Year Zero concept. We talked about this in the earlier episodes. It's based in part on Pol Pot's understanding of the French Revolution, right? As well as reading from guys like Thomas Paine, because again, he does read like American revolutionaries too. And in 1776, Paine had published this. This quote. We have it in our power to begin the world over again. A situation similar to the present hath not happened since the days of Noah until now. The birthday of a new world is at hand. And this is the kind of thing you, you hear in some like, optimistic revolutionary tracts, especially in the headiness of like, we've defeated the regime. We. We have this chance for a total break with history. Right. There's even. You can. You can think about kind of the whole the end of history stuff that was being said when the Soviet Union fell. There's this headiness of like, well, maybe we're done competing with what kind of systems are going to work. Maybe we're entering into this fundamentally new world that represents this real break of continuity. And that means we're never going to have to worry about going back to any of the bad old days or the problems that we had struggled with.
- [28:55]
Andrew T.
There's no back.
- [28:56]
Robert Evans
Yeah. There's no way of going back. Right. We finally did it.
- [29:00]
Andrew T.
Oh, man. I mean, obviously in hindsight, but, like, never has that sentiment been expressed and it not been a true psycho saying it.
- [29:10]
Robert Evans
Right, right, right. I mean, I love me some Thomas Paine, but you should look at the rest of his life. This wasn't. I mean, obviously the US became a slave state. Right?
- [29:19]
Andrew T.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [29:21]
Robert Evans
I'm gonna quote from an article written by Idris Ayers here. Quote. It is evident that the Khmer Rouge, in deliberate and skillful fashion, drew on history for political ends. Their leadership made repeated reference to the importance of grasping the wheel of history and how history would crush those who stood in the way of development. I've heard Musk say some similar things. In 1976, as part of Pol Pot's consolidation of personal power, official party historiography was revised with an eye to the older Indo Chinese guerrilla fractions within the movement by moving the date of the party's founding from 1951 to 1960. At a meeting of the Central Committee in March 1976, it was noted with regard to historiography that we must rearrange the history of the Party into something clean and perfect. Do not use 1951. Make a clean break again. There's this. Even our real history of our real movement, that one isn't good enough. We have to like. And if you're ever finding your movement is needing to, like, alter the very basic foundation of reality for your ideas to work, maybe bounce. Maybe bounce.
- [30:28]
Andrew T.
The B side of all the cool names is like a sort of juvenile relationship to your own story, which is kind of weirdly in evident here in evidence here, where you're like, why?
- [30:42]
Robert Evans
Yeah. And this is why we talk about. The reason why I identify more as an anarchist than anything else isn't because I have some great plan based on some thinker for like. This is the perfect way to reorder Society. And if we did this exact thing based on this exact book, it would clearly work without any problems. I feel that way because, like, anarchists have diagnosed the problem in a way that I'd never seen be wrong. And the problem is, if you give people lots of power.
- [31:09]
Andrew T.
Yeah.
- [31:10]
Robert Evans
They do horrible things. Yeah. Right. Like that's, That's. That's kind of where I get into it from. Right.
- [31:18]
Andrew T.
And everybody conceivable. Yeah. Every conceivable dimension that that power can be gained from. Still bad.
- [31:25]
Robert Evans
Yes. And when you have all of the power and you have this very strict idea of this, we need to do this exact thing, and this exact thing is the only thing that can save us, and then the world doesn't sort of change the way you think it ought to based on your political beliefs. Well, you're just gonna start killing people. And that's sure enough what's gonna happen here.
- [31:45]
Andrew T.
Yeah.
- [31:46]
Robert Evans
So the project to make a clean break with history this whole year zero thing is urgent, Right. Because unless they can do this before Vietnam swallows them up, they're fucked. The internal Marxist analysis also indicated that Cambodia had to proceed directly from feudalism to communism within four years, which they called the super great leap forward. So again, we already know how this fucking works for Mao. And we're like, but what if we make it like a super great leap forward? It's like, you know, Mario Brothers sucked ass, but once we added a super, it was finally good.
- [32:20]
Andrew T.
Just do the thing that already didn't work, but more.
- [32:25]
Robert Evans
Yeah. Mouse just sitting there like, God damn it, why didn't I put a super in front of it? Fuck. The backyard furnaces would have worked. Super Sparrow murdering. In policy terms, year zero had a fairly narrow meaning. The cities which were dominant, as I stated in the earlier episodes, the cities have a ma. Like, they're not like, overwhelmingly Khmer like the rest of the country is. They have a lot of Vietnamese and Chinese traders. And a lot of the Khmer that live there are the new people. Right. They are educated Khmer who come from families with money, who have gone through Western education, who have often been educated overseas and have thus been unforgivably tainted by foreign influence. Now, you may also notice these new people that he's saying we need to expel from the cities are Pol Pot and his friends. Right? Right. Still, the new people have to either assimilate to the base people, and the base people are Khmer peasant farmers or die. And the distinct preference of the Khmer Rouge is that they die. Andrus Ayres describes how jarringly rapid this process is. Money markets and private property, schools, institutes of higher education, newspapers and religious institutions all were immediately abolished after the seizure of power. Early eyewitness accounts relate how the hospital in Phnom Penh was emptied of patients, how the national bank was set on fire, money burned in the streets. Immediately after the victory proclamation, book burnings were orchestrated in front of the National Library and the school of Rene Descartes. The country's borders were closed immediately and the cleansing of the country from foreign influences began. By deporting foreigners and domestic minorities such as Vietnamese, Muslim, Khmer, Chinese, Khmer Thais and Europeans. It was also officially announced that the individual would be abolished. The traditional family would be replaced by the movement. In order to create a completely conflict free society, revolutionaries were officially instructed not to have a personality. The individual was continually counterposed to the people, with the former representing division, factionalism, inequality, bourgeoisie values and foreign influence. The people meanwhile embodied its polar opposite, something entirely pure redemption. The extermination of particularity and contingency and the realization of absolute freedom, equality and fraternity through complete absorption into the Angkar. And that's the people, that's the Volk. Right. You know, the Nazis had the Volk. The Angkar is that for the Khmer Rouge? It's close enough at least. Right. And yeah, revolutionaries are not allowed to have personalities.
- [35:04]
Andrew T.
I mean, I know we're coming at this from a different time in hindsight, but it's so hard for me to even hear the version of that speech that's stirring or motivating. It's really wild.
- [35:19]
Robert Evans
And it's motivating to the people who have been drinking the Kool Aid. Cause again, they've been in these, they started out in these circles where it's just them and their friends continually radicalizing each other further and not really listening to outside people. Right. And then they move to the jungle and become rebel. So not only are they all like trauma bonding, getting bombed together, but they're continuing to talk out these ideas and just take themselves like this isn't for other people. Right. The point is not to inspire other people.
- [35:49]
Andrew T.
Right, Right.
- [35:52]
Robert Evans
And it is this, you get, this is an issue I have with some people that I otherwise agree with a lot. There's talk among certain leftists tendencies about the concept of the abolition of the family. And what they tend to mean in the modern era is looking at a lot of how much of right wing policy is based upon the idea that parents own their children. Right. And that literally like anything a parent wants for their kid, that's all that should matter. Right. Which leads to a lot of heinous abuse. Some of the worst things that happen in our society is because of our conception of the family as this thing in which the parents, primarily the father, possesses everyone else. Right. And wanting to abolish that idea of the family is good, but when you start framing it as family, it's going to bring this up. People are going to think about what the Khmer Rouge did as opposed to being like, I don't think parents should be allowed to poison their kids because they have autism. Right, right, right, right, right. You know, but anyway, we need to.
- [36:52]
Andrew T.
Get the difference between, like absolute power and within the family. And this is not a unit that should exist.
- [37:00]
Robert Evans
Yeah, yeah, it's.
- [37:02]
Andrew T.
This optics is not good.
- [37:03]
Robert Evans
Yeah, yeah, it's this optic. It's an optical issue, I think. But that's not, you know, the Khmer Rouge is not wanting to abolish the family because there's anything similar to the issue we have with the parental rights movement in the U.S. right. The Khmer Rouge wants to abolish. They want to exist is the party. And this idea of almost like a collective consciousness. If we can wipe out enough individualism, then, like, we will have this kind of pure individual, close to nature, this, like, idolized. Everyone will be the idolized Khmer peasant farmer who, by the way, Pol Pot's parents had fought tooth and nail to make sure he never had to be.
- [37:43]
Andrew T.
Don't worry about that.
- [37:44]
Robert Evans
So as soon as they start doing all of this stuff, people begin to starve. Right. There's so much disruption. There's disruption to the way food is grown and the way it's transmitted. All of these networks that had existed. It's one thing if you're like, we want to get rid of capitalism and we want to get rid of things being entirely governed by the financial motive. But you have to account for the fact that, like. Well, but that's how all of the food gets places right now. And like, do you not have a. You have to have a real granular plan for how you're going to make sure food keeps getting to people, otherwise everyone's going to die. And that's what starts to happen. And people also start to starve to death as they are forced at gunpoint out of the cities. Phnom Penh had flooded to significantly higher than its pre war population because of the war going on. And now these people are being marched out and no one's allowed to take anything. People are being dragged out at gunpoint in some cases. Their houses are being burnt down. They don't have a lot of baggage, right? And it's not like people had a lot. We're keeping like food on hand. This isn't like a prepper culture. Folks don't have like freeze dried shit in their houses. So people are just being forced to walk. A lot of a number of them have been pulled out of hospitals and they're just dying. They're dying by the tens of thousands alongside the road. And as people march out, they're just seeing these piles of corpses of their neighbors and family members bloating in the sun. It's just a really hideous like nightmare for all of these people. And they're, you know, these fighters that they're meeting are folks largely who'd come from like rural areas in the jungle. They're very young. A lot of them are teenagers who have been raised on this war. And they, number one, don't have a lot of sympathy for these people in the cities who they've seen as the enemy. The capital is what they've been fighting. If you want to think it like Hunger Games turns right? And also they've been told these are the new people, right? These are the enemy. We do have to get rid of them one way or another. So if you kill these people, if you shoot them by the side of the road, if they starve to death, you're helping to bring about that, you're helping to save the Khmer people. Right? While most of the deaths under the new regime are caused by disease or famine, they're all intentional. These are all the result of policies set by Pol Pot and his comrades. And the expectation of these policies was mass dying. The stage had been set for this in the years leading up to the capital's fall by a process of what is called by genocide scholars, toxification and specifically toxification through Khmer Rouge propaganda. Toxification. This is a process you can watch happen right now in your very own country, presuming you live in the United States. But we're not the only couple.
- [40:22]
Andrew T.
Other countries, yeah, quite a few other countries.
- [40:24]
Robert Evans
We could talk about some recent Supreme Court rulings in the uk. Toxification is a process often seen in genocide, whereby groups of people are depicted as inherently poisonous to the well being of the body politic. The real people of a community. Soldiers are not in general born willing to fill mass graves or to march an entire city out of their homes and die right, they are, they're, they're pushed, they're, they're gotten to that point when they have been convinced that doing so is either a form of self defense or a way to fight their enemy or both. Right. And that's what toxification does. There's a very good article on this process called toxification and the Khmer Rouge Genocide or auto genocide. You'll hear both terms published in the Journal of Terrorism and Political Violence by Timothy Williams and Rhiannon Nielsen. I recommend reading the whole thing. It's a very good article and it's a very important article. It will be kind of chilling in light of things happening in our present world, but it ought to be. And it details how the messaging from Pol Pot on down through the Khmer Rouge hierarchy seeded the militant population with a kind of toxic attitudes that are a necessary precursor to mass killing. The first people targeted specifically for mass execution were those who had bought into and succeeded under the capitalist system. These were the budding intelligentsia of whom Pol Pot himself had been a member. Professors, lawyers, business owners, government officials. Pol Pot called them the internal enemy or super traitors. He really likes super. You hear a lot of that. Obviously this includes people who had been in the military of Law Nol. Right. And the idea was that, and this is Pol Pot's writing, anyone with money, quote, owed the Communist Party a blood debt, right? So this is the first stage. And it's pretty easy to get people on board with killing a lot of these folks, right? That said, there's not many of them. Right. And once you start mass killing, you don't tend to stop. So next, in 1976, Pol Pot turned the eyes and guns of his men on the, quote, unquote, treacherous elements he accused of causing sickness within the party. These ugly microbes had to be destroyed before they rotted Democratic Kampuchea, which is what they're calling Cambodia now, Right? Like, once the ruse takes over, it becomes goes from the Khmer Republic to Democratic Kampuchea. And Pol Pot writes of these ugly microbes, quote, what is infected must be cut. What is rotten must be removed. It isn't enough to cut down a bad plant, it must be uprooted. And you see this a lot in genocidal language, right? You know, this is like Hitler calling the Jews the syphilitic basilis, Right?
- [43:09]
Andrew T.
Yeah. Or, you know, any Thanos line.
- [43:12]
Robert Evans
Any Thanos line.
- [43:13]
Andrew T.
It's like, again, it's just so hard to put myself in the mindset where you hear this and you're like, let's go.
- [43:20]
Robert Evans
Yeah. And it's. You also get, this is something we're hearing right? Now with the way mental illness and things that are called mental illness is, this is being discussed by the right and it's. There's big news right now about the fact that RFK Jr. Is putting, trying to get, trying to use government databases to put together a list of everyone with autism. That's how it's being spread on social media. The actual story is even, I would argue, even a little worse than that, which is that they are attempting to put together a database of everybody who has been diagnosed with any kind of mental health condition, who is on any kind of medication. It's even broader than just that. And part of what's going on here is that like there's a big right wing campaign to like blame gun violence on the mentally ill. Right. And another part of it is that there's a desire to reclassify being transgender and eventually even being LGBT as a mental illness. In part because those people can be disarmed, in part because then you can put those people in, you know, facilities or whatever. I tend to to think that the goal that a lot of these people are thinking towards is less Nazi style death camps and gas fans and more a Judge Rotenberg center on every corner. If you wanna go back to our Judge Rotenberg center episodes. But we'll be talking about that in other days. But I bring this up to say this is a constant when regimes begin the process that can end in mass killing. And I don't think that that's an inevitable state of affairs for us here, but I think people need to be very aware of that because the similarities between these sit are not inconsequential.
- [44:56]
Andrew T.
It's necessary, but not sufficient. But it is necessary.
- [45:00]
Robert Evans
Yeah.
- [45:01]
Andrew T.
For the death camp's version.
- [45:04]
Robert Evans
Yeah. So Pol Pot argued that these diseased elements of the populace had to be purified so that year zero could ensure a Maoist elimination of contradiction. Turning in counter revolutionary elements became a way to get ahead or to protect yourself. Cadres which are like members of the the party, are rewarded for their ability to purge the enemy within. Per that article by Williams and Nielsen, violence became a part of everyday life. And punishment for infringements of the minutely planned details of society were draconian, often costing people their lives, particularly as most mistakes, such as foraging for food or not eating with the collective, were immediately interpreted as evidence of counter revolutionary tendencies. Although anyone could fall victim to the system, prime targets for elimination were ethnic Cham and Vietnamese minorities, former soldiers or officials under the law, Nol regime intellectuals or others deemed not to fit into a peasant society, as well as any person whom the regime believed to be an internal enemy, mostly associated with being an agent of the CIA, KGB, or the Vietnamese Secret Service. And I think it's so interesting, like, part of this is there's such a hatred of this concept of being an individual that even if you're like, foraging for food to stop you and your family from starving, that's individualist behavior and you have to be killed for it, right?
- [46:20]
Andrew T.
Oh, God, yeah. I mean, but also it's like all those rules, I feel like most of those times are asymmetrically applied for whatever means want to be accomplished.
- [46:32]
Robert Evans
And that's key. And a lot of the people who these rules are being applied to, it's not even necessarily that they did the thing or that they were the only person doing the thing. A lot of people do the same stuff and get away with it. It's that they had pissed someone else up for another reason. Someone wanted their stuff. There's a lot of score settling that happens anytime this kind of shit's going down. And this gets me to an important side effect about what happened in Cambodia. You, you will usually see the mass killing in Cambodia referred to either as the Cambodian Genocide or the Khmer Rouge genocide. This term is not, I think, accurate to describe most of what happened because the vast majority of the people who died or, you know, as a part of these year zero policies were Khmer. And the goal of the regime was not to wipe out the Khmer. Right. It was to make them stronger and ultimately more numerous. And it was just a disastrous failure. Right? Yeah. The term autogenicide, which was coined by author Jean Lacouterae, something like that. Jean Lacudre autogenicide was coined by this French author in order to separate the unique circumstances of mass killing in Cambodia from the Holocaust and other traditional genocides. I, again, there's some issues with that even because genocide is, is not fully the right term for what Pol Pot and his, his peers are trying to do to the Khmer people. Right. Because their goal is to ensure the survival of their race. Right. You can come down on however you like on what we should call this. Right?
- [48:07]
Andrew T.
Right.
- [48:08]
Robert Evans
But I shouldn't note that while what the, the most of the killing the regime does and most of who the regime kills are Khmer. While I don't know that it's right to say that, like, genocide is just strictly textually the right way to describe that there are genocides that are being committed by the regime. Khmer Rouge, like normal, like straight up dictionary genocides. Right.
- [48:29]
Andrew T.
I mean, I Wonder if it's, it just comes down to like it's sort of functionally the same type of murder. And I wonder if the argument is sort of like every genocide is actually politically motivated, like at least somewhat external to the stated aims of the genocide. So like what does it really matter?
- [48:48]
Robert Evans
That's absolutely the case. I think kind of the issue comes down to is like well they weren't trying to wipe out the Khmer, right? Like they just thought that wiping out these people which wound up being a huge chunk of the Khmer would strengthen things like what do you call that? I, you know, to a degree doesn't matter. It's certainly not to the dead. But I do want to make a point that there were just straight up normal genocides occurring too in this mass killing. That paragraph I read a little earlier mentioned both the Cham and the Vietnamese ethnic minorities in Cambodia being targeted. And I think all of these different kind of non Khmer people are like 5 to 10% maybe of the total number of dead. But when you look at these as populations, these different ethnic populations that are being targeted are killed in a way that makes them some of the most total genocides I've ever studied. Roughly 50% of Chinese Cambodians and these are not like necessary. Some of them are Chinese immigrants. But these are people who are ethnically Chinese and live in Cambodia. Right. 50% of the pre war population is executed or starved in a three year period and they got off light compared to the ethnically Vietnamese Cambodians. I'm going to quote from that article again. In particular, the Khmer Rouge propaganda organs describe the Vietnamese as toxic to democratic Kampuchea by stating that their goal is to swallow Cambodia's territory and force Cambodia into an Indo Chinese federation under its control. Vietnamese were portrayed as quintessentially evil and lethal to to the democratic Campochea. Radio broadcasts described the Vietnamese as living concealed among the population, infiltrating, sabotaging and destroying the communist regime, therefore being toxic to the ideal. Further broadcasts spoke of the need to weed out and exterminate the enemy planted within the cooperatives and reminded civilians you are not fighting only against Vietnamese soldiers but the whole of Vietnam. So spare nothing and no one. According to Pol Pot, the Vietnamese are a black dragon that spits its poison. The overall death toll for Vietnamese Khmers was nearly 100% of the population.
- [50:56]
Andrew T.
Jesus.
- [50:57]
Robert Evans
Yes.
- [50:58]
Andrew T.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean like that.
- [51:03]
Robert Evans
This is about the most total genocide I've ever heard of. The Vietnamese Khmer in particular.
- [51:08]
Andrew T.
Right, right, yeah. I mean that's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess I still, I'm just like. Not still, but like, like it is.
- [51:19]
Robert Evans
Like it's hard to wrap your head around.
- [51:20]
Andrew T.
Yeah, it's hard to wrap my head around it, but also like, hard to like be like. Like this can't be the. I mean, it just feels like the stated goal can't be the actual goal, I guess, but like, I don't. I don't know what I think the, the actual goal is anyway, but you know what I mean, I'm just like, it's, it has to just be sort of a vague notion of power.
- [51:42]
Robert Evans
It feels like it's.
- [51:44]
Andrew T.
It's like what is killing your enemies like that for?
- [51:48]
Robert Evans
Well, because the people at the top giving the order live these lives of the mind where their whole ego is in. I am intelligent. I understand how things really work. And I have this plan. Right. And everything about their personality is wrapped up in that plan. So it has to work. And they simply can't accept. They can't even let themselves look at a reality that would lead to that being questioned. But then they're passing these orders down to people who, number one, just the desperation of their life. Life. The violence they've seen makes certain things just less abhorrent to them. But also there's room for them to advance. The more of these people they kill, the more stuff they get. The more they move up, the safer they are, the more food they get. Right.
- [52:32]
Andrew T.
And that just creates fucked up incentives that. Yeah, of course.
- [52:36]
Robert Evans
And the incentives come because of the fucked up beliefs of the leaders and the desperation of the people doing a lot of the killing makes them respond better than any incentives, you know? Right, right, right. Which is, by the way, this is not every genocide. For example, I wouldn't talk about the members of the SS this way because they're not. Right, right, right, right, right. But this is what's happening in Cambodia. Speaking of what's happening in Cambodia, presumably someone in Cambodia is listening to this podcast and if.
- [53:07]
Andrew T.
I mean, look.
- [53:07]
Robert Evans
Hi. Hi.
- [53:09]
Andrew T.
You didn't say speaking of mass killing or anything like that. So this is one of the better ad throws.
- [53:15]
Robert Evans
Yeah, yeah. Visit Cambodia or not. I don't know. I haven't been. I hope I hear it's nice.
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Andrew T.
Those were raisins.
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Robert Evans
Right.
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- [56:00]
Robert Evans
And we're back. So the Cham were another non Khmer ethnic group that was targeted by the regime. And to make matters worse, the Chams are Muslim, right? And Pol Pot considered Islam to be inherently reactionary, right? A fundamental enemy of Communists. The large part of the reason why is that Muslims pray five times a day, right? And Pol Pot describes this as them shirking their responsibility to work. Right. This is an individualist thing and it's also stopping you from participating in the national project as much as everyone else. Right. The Chams are just thus a drain on the ideal communist state that he wanted to form. So Pol Pot sent his men to wipe out every Cham village they could find. And roughly 50% of Cham Cambodians had been killed by the late 1979. Now what's interesting to me is that he also targets the Buddhists or at least the Buddhist clergy. And this is kind of weird because, like, he had a really good time at the monastery. He described it his whole life as a positive experience. But as leader of Democratic Kampuchea, he describes Buddhist monks as, quote, parasites who eat the rice of the people. Monks are ordered to carry out hard labor and the vast majority of monks who had existed pre war are killed by the Khmer Rouge. Williams and Nielsen cite an internal Rouge doctrine that brags a 90 to 95% success rate in wiping out the Buddhist monk population. So again, almost totally takes out the Buddhist clergy within, like the Theravada Buddhist clergy within Cambodia.
- [57:32]
Andrew T.
Yeah, it just feels like it's also like, does this sort of thing snowball? Like, once you get started with the mass killing, then you're like, who else can we throw on the list?
- [57:42]
Robert Evans
Yeah, of course, once you pop, the fun don't stop.
- [57:44]
Andrew T.
Right, right, right.
- [57:45]
Robert Evans
Popping here is putting people in graves.
- [57:48]
Andrew T.
Yeah.
- [57:50]
Robert Evans
Now. And this is again why it's so important to start it, stop it from starting now. Again, 90% or so of the people killed by the Khmer Rouge are Khmer and most die is a result of these kind of insane agricultural and land reform policies. The mass depopulation, all the starvation and stuff that goes along with it. But as time goes on, an increasing number of people are being tortured and killed by the regime. And past the initial point where they're like punishing the capitalists and the members of Law Noel's government, most of the people being tortured and killed directly are like former party members and like communists and stuff. Right. A lot of them are people who had been part of Pol Pot's old reading circle back in Paris. Right. They are wiping out, you know, every revolution devours its young, but they are doing that in like famous time. Here for an idea of how deadly it was to have agreed with Pol Pot back when he was Saloth czar or even during the victory of the Khmer Rouge over the La Nole government of the original 22 members of the Central Committee for the Democratic Kampuchea Party, which is who officially governed after the end of the war six lasted to the end of the regime without being killed or tortured, and the vast majority of those were killed. The very few people who survived owed their lives to their sworn enemies, the Vietnamese army, who eventually liberated. Liberated tool slang, which was the prison for specifically, like. After a point. It's specifically the prison for like, party members who were disloyal. To eliminate confusion, tool slang is more commonly known as Security Prison 21 or S21. Right. And this is in terms of its like, level of fame. To people who read about this, troll slang or S21 is the Auschwitz of Cambodia. Right, right, right, right. Not. It's not on that scale. It's not that big a camp. But its death toll is. Is. Yeah.
- [59:45]
Andrew T.
Is that like sort of. I mean, I know it's like as you just said, like, you know, every revolution devours its young, but that still feels like a high percentage of like.
- [59:57]
Robert Evans
Yeah, it is. Yeah.
- [60:00]
Andrew T.
Like getting got.
- [60:02]
Robert Evans
And I think part of it's just because none of this is working and someone has to pay. And part of it is again, just because. Because once you start killing like this.
- [60:11]
Andrew T.
Yeah.
- [60:12]
Robert Evans
You keep. You can't stop. Right. In part because stopping then you have to deal with the fact that nothing worked, that everything was a failure, that your whole life and all of your beliefs are wrong and no one at the top can take. So we. There must be someone. There must be a traitor. Somebody's fucking. Yeah. Fucking with us. Right?
- [60:28]
Andrew T.
Is that like unique. Ish to polkat as far as like. Yeah, right. It's just how it goes. Goes, of course.
- [60:35]
Robert Evans
Well, it's how it goes sometimes because like, the Nazis don't really. Like, the Nazis target other Nazis. You know, there's the Night Along Knives, but that was more of like a centralizing even more power and dealing with like a chunk of the movement that didn't really agree with. With Hitler anymore. Not every. This is pretty. It's not unique, but it's not common for it to be like this. Right. Obviously in the French Revolution, stuff like this happens. But the, the swiftness and the centrality which. With which loyal members of the party are targeted and tortured and executed is.
- [61:08]
Andrew T.
Yeah.
- [61:09]
Robert Evans
Like, if you can't be one of.
- [61:11]
Andrew T.
The boys, then who can you be?
- [61:14]
Robert Evans
There's really no safety here, right?
- [61:16]
Andrew T.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [61:17]
Robert Evans
So it was between one of like S21. This, this prison that's kind of the most famous of the prisons here was between one of between 150 and a little less than 200 torture and execution centers built on poll Pol Pot's orders by the Santabal, the Secret Police. Roughly 20,000 people were imprisoned in S21 over the course of the regime. There's some debate on this number between 12 and 20,000. There's never more than about a thousand to 1500 people at a time though. And S21 is built out of a former school, which is I guess extra chilling given that Pol Pot was a schoolteacher. Right? And when I say a thousand to fifteen hundred at a time, twenty thousand total people aren't released a lot from S21. This is a death camp. And while it started by going after again like agents of the old regime, yada yada yada, its prime purpose for most of its history is purging members of the leadership cast as well as like members of the party alongside their entire families. If you are like somebody, a mid level guy in the Khmer Rouge who gets targeted and put in S21, your kids and your wife are going to, even if they're babies, right? They'll take your infant in there and kill them and torture them, right? And again it's this like, well, we really have to make a statement. You know, the stakes are so high. We really have to scare people away from not being loyal members of the party. Now we're not going to be dealing with S21 in as much length as we ought to or the prison system in general. This is because it really does deserve its own episodes. Our friend Joe Kasabian of the Lions Led by Donkeys podcast has covered it length. I recommend his work given that I'm trying to focus this on Pol Pot who was a major architect of this prison system. I hope you'll forgive my brevity as I quote from a detailed fact sheet put together by the Documentation center of Cambodia for the Cambodia Tribunal. Quote and this is talking about the people who were sent to S21. They were accused of collaborating with foreign governments, spying for the CIA and the KGB, and hence betraying Ankar. Prisoners were also believed to have conspired with others and thus were forced to reveal their strings of traitors, which sometimes included over names. The interrogators at S21 based their technique on a list of 10 security regulations which included while getting lashes or electrification, you must not cry at all. Although prisoners often had no idea why they had been arrested, interrogators forced them to confess their crimes. If they did not confess, they would be subjected to physical and Psychological torture. However, after having confessed, they were marked for execution. Initially, prisoners were killed on the grounds of the prison. But as the volume and stench of the corpses rapidly increased and became unbearable, prisoners were then trucked and mossed to an open field located 15 km away known as Crow's Feet Pond, to be killed. Waiting at the field was a group of about 10 young men led by Tang. Tang, in his early 20s and his team of teenagers lived in a two story house that was built on the field in 1977. They were informed ahead of time of the number of prisoners that would arrive so that they could dig the graves in advance. The shocking figures commonly associated with the prison, 14,000 killed and seven surviving survivors ranked the prison as one of the most lethal in the 20th century.
- [64:24]
Andrew T.
Jesus. Yeah, Also, I mean the detail, obviously every atrocity has someone actually doing it, but like just this dude's job.
- [64:35]
Robert Evans
Yep, yep. Every day you get told how many corpses you gotta dig holes for and you and your fellow teenagers get out of, you know, the house until, I guess, early 20s. Yeah. And his team was teenager creatures.
- [64:45]
Andrew T.
Yeah. And just doing it every day it's like, yeah, you know, it's so hard to fathom for me as a lazy.
- [64:52]
Robert Evans
Person, he's probably like, well this is pretty good job. Given things, I'm probably not going to get targeted. They're not going to go after the gravedigger, right?
- [64:58]
Andrew T.
Yeah.
- [64:59]
Robert Evans
They need me digging graves.
- [65:00]
Andrew T.
Yeah.
- [65:02]
Robert Evans
Now while S21 was operating, pol Pot himself made regular statements and writings to Western supporters. And this is a key aspect of what's happening while all this nightmare is unfolding in Cambodia. Cambodia. There's not a, there's not, there's stuff getting out, but not a lot of it. Right. At least initially. You know, as time goes on, more does start to get out about how horrifying what's happening is. But the first stuff that gets out is propaganda from Pol Pot and the regime to Western supporters where they're talking about the utopia that we're building. We are finally creating the, the communist, the agrarian peasant communist utopia that everyone's hoped would happen. We've made a totally equal society. Here it is in democratic Kampuchea. We've done it. Right. And there were a not insignificant number of Western leftists who believed this bullshit. Right. And who would argue that any evidence to the contrary is the evidence of how hideous what's happening of the killing fields as they're called, start to come out. There's a lot of folks who are like, well that's just Capitalist propagation. That's the CIA. Right. Nothing, nothing bad's happening in Cambodia. Right. One of the organizations that Pol Pot spread his propaganda towards was the Belgian Kampuchea Society, who interviewed pol pot in 1978. He told them, we don't have prisons and we don't even use the word prison. Bad elements in our society are simply given productive tasks to do. And you know, dipshits buy this stuff. Right. As they always do, as they do in the present day. By all accounts, the most famous of these dipshits was an English writer and professor named Malcolm Caldwell. Caldwell had been a significant figure on the British left in the 60s and 70s. He spends two years as the chair of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament. He is an avid anti Vietnam War protestor and in that regard his actions were evidently admirable because the Vietnam War deserved protesting. He wrote regularly for Peace News in support of different anti colonial movements and a number of them he was very right to support. Caldwell is a figure who in some ways resembles a lot of modern genocide denier types on the left, although I think he was a much better person because again, he's not comprehensively that and he's not being like paid by anybody. Yeah, this is a true believer who lacks a tremendous degree of judgment in a very key area. Yeah, but.
- [67:31]
Andrew T.
And also like, you know, from his perspective, you kind of imagine like you're largely right. I mean, in this case you're wrong about the CAA propaganda, but up until.
- [67:41]
Robert Evans
Cambodia, you're largely right. Yeah, mostly the US is doing hella war crimes and being supported by a lot of people in Vietnam and doing them and.
- [67:50]
Andrew T.
Yeah, so like you're like. Yeah, it's like, you see the leg he has a stand on, even though he's.
- [67:55]
Robert Evans
It is one. It's very tempting. And there's a degree to which you should compare him to folks like people who write for the Gray Zone, which is a faux journalistic institution that spent years arguing Bashar Al Assad never gassed its own people, made fun of anyone who was saying Russia was about to invade Ukraine. Right. They're those motherfuckers. Caldwell, there's a degree to which you should compare him to them. But also people who knew him said he was kind and empathetic and he was in a lot of cases on the right side of things. And he gets into Cambodian politics for a sympathetic reason, which is that he's arguing against this nightmarish US bombing campaign, which is a war crime. And on the other side of this, by the Way I found a fucking Washington Post column looking, writing about this in which the author was like, oh, it's. You know what's really fucked up is the people who slandered the US for bombing Cambodia to try to stop the Khmer Rouge from coming into being. That's not why we fucking did it, you dipshit. Like, fuck you. For one thing, that's part of what made, made them possible. For the other thing that we didn't give up, that was never the fucking goal. Like fuck you. Fuck you. I just. So many people I fucking hate. Yeah. Anyway, Caldwell was loved by his students and it was recalled even by people who disagreed with him as a gentle person who was tolerant of opposing views. So he was not the kind of guy who was like, maybe he would have been if he'd had Twitter, but like, was the guy who was willing to talk about his unhinged beliefs about Cambodia with you in a polite manner. So I don't want to depict him as a character caricature right now. Because the Khmer Rouge beat the US backed law and old government, and because their claims of agrarian equality and an idealized socialist society gelled with Caldwell's own hope of where the world might go, he came to support them to the hilt. His friends, who at the same time saw him as a brilliant economist, also rued his startling naivete. One peer said, quote, he was a man with very clear theoretical and ideological views and the empirical basis didn't seem to worry him here, always a big warning sign. Lamb is about how it should work. So why bother looking at what's happening now? Caldwell did visit a lot of the regimes that he extolled and supported. He took regime sponsored tours of places like the ussr and you know, that's one of those things where it's like you are going to miss a lot of the bad stuff the USSR is doing. But the Soviet Union is like a state state that functions. Right. And there's things that did that were good. Got it, got the first person into space. There were massive improvements in, you know, literacy and whatnot, in addition to horrifying and, and awful things done by theirs. It's an actual state. Right. And so it's understandable that you could go there and see, take this sponsored tour and just see the good stuff. Right. That's not really possible in Cambodia because there's no good stuff stuff. Right, right. There's, there's nothing positive happening under the Khmer Rouge.
- [70:49]
Andrew T.
Yeah, the silver lining is hard to, hard to find. I mean, you, you truly have to be A blind believer to just go in there, right?
- [70:57]
Robert Evans
Per The Guardian quote, Three days before Christmas in 1978, Malcolm Caldwell received an early present. On the final day of a two week tour of Cambodia, he was told that he would meet with Pol Pot. This was indeed a rare privilege. Unlike most other communist leaders, Pol had not created a personality. There were no posters of him. He was seldom seen or quoted. Many Cambodians had not even heard of him. Only seven Westerners were ever invited to what had been renamed Democratic Kampuchea. And Caldwell was the first and only Britain. So the fact that he's invited at all is this huge honor. So he comes and he shows up at this place where there are other journalists as we'll talk about with him, there's people with him and they're all immediately like in Phnom Penh being like, where are all the people people? Because some of them had been prior to the Khmer Rouge taking over. And they're horrified. They're like, where are the fucking human beings, right? Everyone's gone, something's horribly wrong here. And Caldwell is just like so honored that like they didn't pick any other British people. Pol Pot wants to talk to me, just me, you know. So there are a few reasons why he was taken in and received so well. For one thing, he had been to China. He was on good terms with the Chinese Communist government. Government. And that was Cambodia's main ally at the time. He was also. Pol Pot was kind of in this period, this is after there had been a series of provoked border conflicts with Vietnam provoked by the Khmer Rouge. And it was becoming increasingly clear that Vietnam was going to invade. And so Pol Pot was really trying to burnish his international support. So he suddenly wanted Westerners in, right? And he's like, well, this guy's probably like blind enough to ignore all the horrible shit going on, right?
- [72:35]
Andrew T.
This guy will do.
- [72:37]
Robert Evans
Yeah. And Caldwell had just a few months before he came to Cambodia, written an article in the Guardian in which he had basically said like, all these reports that the Khmer Rouge are killing people are nonsense. One of his main sources was the Campuchean information minister, a guy named Hugh Nim, who blamed the deaths on America, right? Basically like the bombing that the, like all of these people that you're saying have died, this is due to the bombing campaign the US had actually executed, right? Now by the time he shows up in Cambodia, this guy that his whole article denying the Khmer Rouge genocide is based on, Hu Nim has already been executed and tortured to death by Pol Pot. So Not. Not a great sign. But even so, he was aware to an extent that the Khmer Rus was killing people. And he had described them as quickly arch quislings who knew well what their fate would be were they to linger in Kampuchea. So. Well, I don't want to caricature this guy. You shouldn't pretend like this dude was finding reasons to justify the killings that he knew about. Right. Including the guy who was the source of his stupid article.
- [73:47]
Andrew T.
That's so crazy.
- [73:48]
Robert Evans
Yeah, it's nuts. Now, there are real journalists on this trip and one of them, Elizabeth Becker, she had been to Cambodia before things, you know, the Khmer Rouge had taken over. And she was a very courageous and talented war correspondent. Right. She was good at her job and she argued with Caldwell constantly. While they're talking, she's like, she's one of the people being like, there's supposed to be people in this city. Like, I've seen it before. Something's really bad here. And Caldwell's, you know, giving the same line, putting out a bunch of nonsense about like, you know, the bold reformation of society along these utopian lines and what whatnot. But she still liked him. Like, he was a very pleasant man. She called him kind and tolerant and just deeply naive. Quote, he didn't want to know about problems with the Khmer Rouge. And that carried over to not wanting to know about problems between Cambodia and Vietnam. He was stuck in 1968 or something. Now there's a book out by this point, by the time that Caldwell comes to Cambodia, about the early stages of the Cambodian, the auto genocide, whatever you want to call it, called Year 00. Caldwell could have read this book and if he had, he'd have learned, for example, that one Khmer Rouge saying expressed the regime's goal as to completely annihilate diseases of consciousness that got in the way of their goals. Doing this meant getting rid of hidden enemies who, as Pol Pot put it, had sicknesses of revolutionary consciousness. Now, Philip Short goes into more detail here, summarizing information that should have been available to Caldwell had he done this reading. Quote, satyarama meant an individual who failed to focus on the communist cause and was therein portrayed as toxic to its realization. Even without considerable evidence or proof, individuals could suddenly be classified as toxic to the super Great Leap Forward and accused of being class enemies with a sickness of consciousness. Enemies were depicted as pervasive and infecting the pure Khmer ideal. The desire to exterminate enemies grew, as did the intoxication of doing so with impute, impunity purging these contaminants was discussed as crucial to the survival of the regime. According to propaganda, enemies were likened to an impurity that threatened the well being of revolutionary society. These groups were portrayed as a lethal source of pollution that needed to be eliminated. A sort of madness had taken over the country at this point, particularly among the Rouge cadres doing the hand to hand slaughtering. And for an idea of just how deranged this gets, several militia who are interviewed later claimed that they would eat the livers of their victims in the belief that it would give them extra power and probably because they are also starving to death. Yeah, one of these. Yeah, one of these guys is cited later as saying they ate human liver because they wanted to prevent themselves from being shocked by killing people, then they could kill people. They wanted to change themselves to be able to kill people without pity.
- [76:43]
Andrew T.
Oh, God.
- [76:44]
Robert Evans
Yeah. Yeah.
- [76:45]
Andrew T.
I mean, there's probably some level of like just prion disease that can take over. Like, there's gotta be some.
- [76:53]
Robert Evans
You're okay with livers?
- [76:55]
Andrew T.
Oh, yeah. Oh, no. I mean, just if you're trying to like, like lose, lose your conscience, probably giving yourself a brain disease is not the worst way to do it.
- [77:06]
Robert Evans
You're generally safe if you want to eat human beings safely. Like the liver is like a reasonably okay spot to go for. I don't want people to get fucking prion diseases. Don't.
- [77:18]
Andrew T.
No spine, no bone marrow.
- [77:20]
Robert Evans
No bone marrow, no brain. Right. You know, we all know this, folks. Sophie, a lot of people, I'm a believer in harm reduction. Okay. You know, all right, test your fentanyl. Don't eat people's spines. Or test your drugs for fentanyl. Don't eat people's spines. Don't test your fentanyl, don't do fentanyl. Okay. Caldwell could have had access to a lot of this information, and he rejected it largely on the basis that Year Zero had been pilloried by a critique published by Noam Chomsky. Now, this is contentious, people. Oh, boy. The arguing about whether or not Chomsky supported the Khmer Rouge or was just like, given the information available at the time, it's hard to tell what is true. I'm not gonna. This is not going to be a lengthy dissection of that. But there are arguments that he denied a number of the crimes being committed by the Khmer Rouge. He certainly argued that Ponchard, the author of Year Zero, had exaggerated the horror of what was occurring on the ground. Chomsky described it as what people were saying about The Khmer Rouge as quote, an unprecedented propaganda campaign to slander democratic Kampuchea via systematic distortion of the truth. Right. Now, Chomsky preferred a different book. He compared Ponchad work unfavorably with another book called Cambodia Starvation and Revolution written by George Hildebrand and Gareth Porter, which basically is taking Khmer Rouge propaganda and like being like, hey, everything's great over there actually. And like what? The stuff that's bad is not their fault. Right, right, right. There was another book written by two Reader's Digest writers called Murder of a Gentle Land that Chomsky also went after, which, you know, it was not perfect. None of the claims about what, none of the. None of the critiques and the people talking about the auto genocide are perfectly accurate because it's still going on. Right, but they are broadly accurate. And Chomsky is certainly in the wrong about what books about Cambodia to trust during this period.
- [79:23]
Andrew T.
Right, but, but also if we hadn't, you know, we, the United States and the west hadn't put out so much lying CIA propaganda like this would it wouldn't be. It would be less possible for this dissent to hide behind it to work. Yeah.
- [79:42]
Robert Evans
And this is also why I have a degree more of sympathy to Caldwell and to other people who doubted this in this period of time because it was such a different information environment and there was just so much disinformation that had been put out about Vietnam, that had been put out about what the US Was doing in Cambodia. Cambodia that didn't put it about what the US Was doing in parts of Latin America. So again, these people are wrong and that should be stated. But it's. I do have less condemnation than I do about like the stuff going on in the 21st century that rigors this. Right.
- [80:17]
Andrew T.
Yeah. There wasn't Twitter and there wasn't like. Yeah, you know, it's just, it's more reasonable to be skeptical.
- [80:26]
Robert Evans
Yes. And there's. It's certainly reasonable to initially be skeptical. Now it's again by the point time Caldwell was on the ground and these other people with him are like, this city used to have people. It's no longer like, you should have known. Right, right. So it's generally considered or argued at least that Chomsky is a big part of why Caldwell doesn't like trust. You know, Punchad's book about the atrocities going on in Cambodia, you know, whatever the truth, whoever you're gonna blame for it, Caldwell at age 47 shows up in Cambodia as a pretty much a true believe. Right. And in fact he had finished a book before he goes there called A Rationale for Rural Policy, in which he had written that the Khmer Rouge had, quote, opened vistas of hope not only for the people of Cambodia, but also for the people of other peoples of all other poor Third world countries. We'll come back to that book in a second. So Caldwell, along with these journalists, is escorted around the country. They see some, like, staged scenes. And again, Becker is. Gets aggressive. Very brave woman with these Khmer Rouge guards being like, I can. I can see what you're not showing us, like, where you're blocking us from going. I can see evidence of clear problems because I've been here before. What the. And she's, like, arguing with them. She said later, it was so clearly awful. One of the problems was the absence of what I saw, the absence of people. And that's a different kind of proof to you. I don't see any people being executed. Executed. Caldwell was not concerned. Quote, he preferred to stay in the car and laugh at the clumsy photo opportunities prepared for us. Becker wrote in her book on Cambodia. Now, at the very end of the tour, they all go back to Phnom Penh and they, you know, they're hanging out for a little bit. They're not all that far from the S21 center, right? This is where Caldwell's going to finally have his interview with Pol Pot. And I'm going to quote from the Guardian again. Caldwell remained ignorant on the Friday morning in Phnom Penh that he was taken in a. In a Mercedes limousine to see Pol Pot. The setting for the meeting was the former Governor's palace on the waterfront, built during the French colonial period. In a grand reception room replete with fans and billowing white curtains, the two men sat down and discussed revolutionary economic theory. Becker had met Pol Pot earlier the same day, and in when the War Was Over. That's her book, she writes. He was actually elegant, with a pleasing face. Not handsome, but attractive. Attractive. His features were delicate and alert and his smile nearly endearing. The perennially shabby academic and the fastidious dictator must have made for an odd couple. In any case, Caldwell left the meeting a happy man. He returned to the guest house he was sharing with Becker and Dudman, full of praise for Pol Pot and his political outlook. We went over stuff, says Becker. He thought he had a good conversation. He had avoided at all costs any discussion of Vietnam, and he was looking forward to going home. So that that night, they have another argument, Becker and Caldwell, about Cambodia. They have dinner and they go to bed. And as far as she can tell, he remained completely convinced that the revolution was a good thing and that Cambodia was headed in a good direction. She goes to bed at around 11pm and in the middle of the night, she is woken up by what she eventually realizes is gunfire. And she comes out of her room, she sees a young man pointing a handgun at her. He's wearing. He's got bands of ammunition on his body, he's got a rifle on his back. She flees back into her room and locks herself in the bathroom. And eventually, when they come out, when this ends, Dudman, the other guy there, sees a bunch of guys running along the street and they find Caldwell in his room and he's been shot repeatedly. He's dead. Right. It's still, to this day, not perfectly clear. Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's generally, generally pretty clear. Pol Pot ordered it. We don't really know why. What about this guy triggered him? Why specifically it happened? The Khmer Rouge doesn't admit to it, but, yeah, this guy gets killed. And it's just kind of. It's one of these very famous moments because he's such. He's one of these, like, guys who had really been willing to go to bat for Democratic capuchia and then finds himself yet in a other corpse in the killing field, so to speak.
- [84:44]
Andrew T.
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, you know, the other side is like, we're also living through a moment where, like, everyone will cozy up to the dictator who demonstrably will stab you in the back at every given opportunity and they still line up.
- [84:58]
Robert Evans
Yeah. So, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, people, People are really like, Caldwell, above all else, is a reminder of how easy it is to blind yourself to obvious reality, even at your own peril. Because. Because seeing the reality, it's not even that you don't want to see it, it's that seeing the reality would mean taking a hit to your ego. It's the same thing. Why you've got. There's a lot of people being like, oh, well, once these tariffs start to hit, once the economy collapses, all of these Trump supporters will realize they'll see the light. And like, a significant chunk of Trump's voters who are not hardcore supporters, who are the people who voted for Biden in 20, you know, who go back and forth or who, like, made their decision day of, sure, they'll change their mind, they'll get angry. But the heart and core of his supporters, recognizing that they've been fucked means recognizing they're not as smart as they Think they are, yeah. And again, Caldwell. Well that's, that's a big part of it for him. He's a scholar, he's a smart man, he couldn't be this wrong.
- [85:55]
Andrew T.
Yeah. So, I mean, you know, they could. And those people are also the ones doing the worst stuff when the time comes to do the worst stuff.
- [86:06]
Robert Evans
Unfortunately, yes, because again, they've bought in. Now while all this is going on, the end of the regime is getting nearer and nearer because Pol Pot's also not as smart as he thinks he is. Right. He had directed his forces in what began as a series of border skirmishes against the newly unified Vietnamese state. This was a sensible decision based on their obsessive hatred and paranoia of Vietnam. But given the comparative state of the militaries of the two countries, it was basically, basically suicidal. And in short order this is what brings an end to democratic Kampuchea. Vietnam invades Cambodia in December of 1978. And what follows was not close to a fair fight. By January they had taken the capital and put an end to Pol Pot's reign, sort of. So he has to flee, right? He has to like leave Phnom Penh and Vietnam takes over and administers, you know, for a while while Cambodia, and eventually Cambodia becomes independent again under a government that is not the Khmer Rouge. But the Khmer Rouge doesn't go away and Pol Pot remains the head of, of the Khmer Rouge as they like go and hide in the jungle. They've got like some villages and stuff, this like little weird fortified section of the country, tiny section of the country that they're able to like manage along. I think it's like the Thai border there. And in fact this government, because in 82 China and the association of Southeast Asian nations kind of pressures the Khmer Rouge to ally with Prince Sihannock's forces and some republican forces led by a guy called the Thai border and create this thing called the coalition government of Democratic Kampuchea. And that remains in the UN, the legitimate government of Cambodia until 1991 one even though like they're not actually in power, the, the government in power is like the prk, but they're only recognized by Vietnam, Lao and the Soviet Union. And so that's kind of like Pol Pot's where he is. For the 80s, you know, into the 90s, there is a lot of guerrilla warfare. Pol Pot continues to lead the Khmer Rouge to fight against the Vietnamese backed government of Cambodia. And this continues massively. The suffering of the Cambodian people, people who do never get nearly enough international Aid and this situation doesn't really start to end until the Paris Peace Agreement is signed in October of 1991. The Vietnamese withdraw from Cambodia and things slowly start to calm down. There's a UN peacekeeping force that kind of enters in 1993 and there's like a free and fair election, you know, that, that yeah, things start to get better at this point. The Khmer Route Rouge never disarms, right? They continue to hold their tiny little chunk of the country and argue that there's Vietnam is still secretly running things. There's camouflaged Vietnam, Vietnamese soldiers, you know, that are behind the regime, right. They boycott the 1993 election and they basically hole up in western and northern little bits of Cambodia. They're outlawed in 1994 and when the Cold War ends they, they don't really have any of the even minimal support that they had previously had had at long, long length. Yang Seri, who's the foreign minister who was again one of one of Pol Pot's friends from Paris, as well as a number of other high ranking officials surrender along with the bulk of what had remained of the military of the Khmer Rouge and they are eventually incorporated into the Royal Cambodian Armed Forces. Pol Pot though, stays free for quite a while until he is basically. There's this shit that goes down in 1990, I think it is where one of his few remaining friends running the Khmer Rouge, this guy Son Sin, does something that Pol Pot considers treason. And so he massacres Son sin along with 14 of his family members, including his like grandkids. Now Pol Pot would argue for the other people, the babies, the young ones, I did not order them to be killed. For San Sen and his family, yes, I feel sorry about that. That was a mistake that occurred when we put our plan into practiced. I feel sorry. This is when he's questioned by a journalist named Nate Thayer who does his last interview. And this is kind of what brings an end to him leading the Khmer rouge finally after 37 years. Because for whatever reason this is a step too far to the last people who had stuck around him. And one of his, like his commander in chief, a guy named Tom Mock, puts him on house arrest, right? And yeah, and that's kind of the end of Pol Pot of having even a sliver of power. Eventually Pol Pot is brought before a people's tribunal. He's sentenced to life imprisonment for Son Sin's murder. But he never really faces any actual like justice, right? Like there's nothing right.
- [91:12]
Andrew T.
There's no way you can pay for this anyway. But he doesn't even, not even close.
- [91:17]
Robert Evans
Yeah, no. He dies under house arrest in 1998. And that's the story.
- [91:24]
Andrew T.
Yeah, it's one of those like, like whatever, whatever belief you may have in some sort of cosmic justice, this will, this should tip the scales in the other direction.
- [91:34]
Robert Evans
Yeah. Like, he is ultimately not punished by the new Cambodian state or the un. He's punished by the Khmer Rouge for killing another Khmer Rouge guy. In his very last interview, after he has been arrested again, there's this guy, Nate Thayer, who comes and does this, like, final interview with Pol Pot. And Nate does a very good job of this. Like, he really presses Pol Pot on the stuff that he did on all of the killings. And this is. I want to read this quote from one of Nate's last articles with Pol Pot where he's trying to, like, get him to acknowledge anything about what he did. Did I came to carry out the struggle not to kill people. He rasps, his voice almost a whisper. He pauses, fixing to his interviewer with an almost pleading expression. Even now. And you can look at me. Am I a savage person? My conscience is clear. I do not reject responsibility. Our movement made mistakes, like every other movement in the world. But there was another aspect that was outside our control, the enemy's activities against us. I wanted tell you, I'm quite satisfied with one thing. If we had not carried out our struggle, Cambodia would have become another kampuche Krom in 1975, he says, referring to the Mekong Delta region seized by Vietnam from the Khmer empire in the 17th century. And that, I think, says a lot, that the end of this guy's life, 2 million deaths, maybe on his conscience, the absolute destruction of his country in such a way that it still has not recovered. And he's like, well, look, if I hadn't done that, it could have wound up like this time. Vietnam took the Mekong Delta region from us in the 1600s. You know, you wouldn't want that, would you? Like, he's still, he's such, like, it's this, this fucking academic brain shit where, like, all that matters to him is these, this idea he's cooked up about how the world ought to work when he was, like, a young student with his friends that he never gets over his ego, won't let him, no matter how many fucking people it leads him to kill.
- [93:33]
Andrew T.
It's like such a, like holding onto that delusion. The end is so amazing. I mean, I just, you know, I, I. It's so hard for me to understand that brain.
- [93:44]
Robert Evans
Yep.
- [93:45]
Andrew T.
Like, like Rationalizing to that degree, like totally. I don't know. Or just you got to put on a show all the way to your last interview. You know, keep the, keep the kayfabe up.
- [93:55]
Robert Evans
Yep.
- [93:57]
Andrew T.
It's grim.
- [93:58]
Robert Evans
Anyway.
- [94:01]
Sophie From Mars
It'S plugged time.
- [94:03]
Robert Evans
Yep.
- [94:06]
Andrew T.
Just my plug is. Just go, go, go sit by yourself for a second and just think about, you know, the world and what you can do to help someone.
- [94:16]
Robert Evans
And don't, don't take the books you read when you were fucking 20 too seriously.
- [94:23]
Andrew T.
I mean, look, we're, we're living through the same version of that, but just the book is fucking Atlas Shrugged.
- [94:30]
Robert Evans
Exactly. That, that's, that is like why I bring this up in the context of like Doge and all of these young people who have like reading goddamn Curtis Yarvin and on the Internet and convince themselves the shit they read when they're young and like talk with their friends about obsessively in these discord chats and signal loops. And you know, there are the people who are willing to make Pol Pot style decisions and no number of deaths, how many, know how many tens of millions of people die if they get the chance. It's, it won't. They will not for a second doubt themselves or change their minds. And that's why literally anything that can be done to stop the process that is attempting to be underway is like, justified. Because these people are going, they, they, they have to be edged out. Right? And I, I, I'm, I'm optimistic at least about the fact that Musk, who's one of these people who has the same kind of Pol Pot brain damage damage, seems to have, seems to be pulling back because of how angry he's made. He's just not built for criticism, right? Yeah, but there's more of these guys.
- [95:32]
Andrew T.
And these guys, he's delusional, but he's too thin skinned and thankfully largely incompetent. Although incompetence has never stopped so many of these folks in the past, so.
- [95:42]
Robert Evans
No, it hasn't.
- [95:43]
Sophie From Mars
No, they just fail upwards.
- [95:45]
Andrew T.
Cold comfort. But maybe that's at least a weakness.
- [95:48]
Robert Evans
To extra exploit anyway. I don't know. Hard to know when it's good to read books or not.
- [95:56]
Andrew T.
Oh my God, no. This is, this is the lesson for these three episodes. Don't read books. Kids listen to podcasts. Not that podcast. No, not that podcast either.
- [96:07]
Robert Evans
Podcasts have never led anyone to support horrible things that get people killed. Just like don't ever believe your own or anyone else's too strong. Keep an eye out for what's going on in the world and talk to people. Goodbye. Goodbye.
- [96:24]
Sophie From Mars
Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media.
- [96:28]
Robert Evans
For more from Cool Zone Media, Visit.
- [96:29]
Sophie From Mars
Our website coolzonemedia.com or check us out.
- [96:33]
Robert Evans
On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or.
- [96:35]
Sophie From Mars
Wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the Bastards is Now available on YouTube. New episodes episodes every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to our channel YouTube.com behindthebastards.
- [96:49]
Unknown
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- [97:44]
Robert Evans
This is Jana Kramer from Wind down with Jana Kramer. Have you ever felt that uneasy anxiety.
- [97:49]
Sophie From Mars
When the 4pm hour strikes? The creeping meal related distress that happens when you don't quite feel prepared, you know, dinner dread.
- [97:57]
Robert Evans
Let's get rid of that unpleasant feeling forever with one word.
- [98:00]
Sophie From Mars
Stouffers.
- [98:01]
Robert Evans
No matter what happens, you'll have a dinner plan that everyone loves with Stouffers some chicken enchiladas or a cheesy chicken and broth. Broccoli pasta bake is always welcome, whether it is Plan A or Plan Delicious. When the clock strikes dinner, think Stouffer's Shop now for family favorites.
- [98:17]
Sophie From Mars
This podcast is supported by BetterHelp, offering licensed therapists you can connect with via video phone or chat. Here's BetterHelp head of clinical operations Hesu Jo discussing who can benefit from therapy.
- [98:32]
Robert Evans
I think a lot of people think that you're supposed to be going to therapy once you're like having panic attacks every day. But before you get to that point, I think once you start even noticing that you feel a little bit off and you can't maintain this harmony that you once had in relationships, that could be a sign that maybe you want to go talk to somebody. There's always a benefit in talking to someone because we can all benefit from improved insight about ourselves and who we are and how we behave with other people. People. So if you're human, that's like a good indicator that you could benefit from talking to somebody.
- [99:06]
Sophie From Mars
Find out if therapy is right for you. Visit betterhelp.com today. That's betterhelp.com travel smarter, not harder at.
- [99:16]
Robert Evans
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