Part Two: How Tainted Human Blood Became A Major U.S. Export

Summary

Behind the Bastards: Part Two – How Tainted Human Blood Became A Major U.S. Export

Release Date: March 27, 2025
Hosts: Robert Evans and Ben Bolin
Produced by: Cool Zone Media and iHeartPodcasts

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Overview

In the second installment of "Behind the Bastards," hosts Robert Evans and Ben Bolin delve into the harrowing tale of how tainted human blood from U.S. prisons became a significant export, leading to a global health catastrophe. This episode meticulously unpacks the systemic corruption, political entanglements, and ethical breaches that facilitated the distribution of contaminated plasma, causing widespread infection among hemophiliacs in the United Kingdom and Canada.

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1. The HMA Plasma Program and Initial Scandal

The episode begins by introducing Health Management Associates Incorporated (HMA), the company responsible for managing blood donations within Arkansas prisons in the early 1980s. In 1983, HMA sold 38 units of tainted blood plasma from inmates known to be hepatitis-positive. Although 38 pints might seem negligible in isolation, these were mixed with tens of thousands of other donations, contaminating a vast number of plasma-derived medicines.

Notable Quote:
Robert Evans [04:46]: "They're, they're founded by Janine Murder. You know, she's a great cat food scientist of the New Hampshire murders."

Note: This quote, while humorous, underscores the deceptive nature of HMA's innocuous name masking nefarious activities.

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2. Reinstatement and Continued Misconduct

Despite the initial scandal, HMA was reinstated after individuals with ties to the administration secured positions within both the prison board and HMA. This reinstatement allowed HMA to resume its plasma donation program with minimal oversight, exacerbating the contamination issue.

Notable Quote:
Robert Evans [04:55]: "They're just killing people. You really want to just invest in a company called MurderCo? Because MurderCo probably just produces like cat food or something."

This stark commentary highlights the malicious intent behind HMA's operations.

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3. Global Impact: Canada and the UK

The contaminated plasma from Arkansas prisons found its way into the medical systems of Canada and the United Kingdom. In Canada alone, an estimated 42,000 individuals were infected with hepatitis C, and thousands more contracted HIV, resulting in approximately 7,000 deaths. Similarly, in the UK, the British hemophiliac community suffered devastating losses, with around 4,670 individuals infected with hepatitis C and 1,243 with HIV, culminating in about 2,000 deaths.

Notable Quote:
Robert Evans [30:58]: "Yes, easily preventable deaths too. This is medicine that they need to live."

This emphasizes the tragic and avoidable nature of the crisis.

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4. Legal and Regulatory Responses

In 1985, HMA settled with the FDA over the blood recall, agreeing to a liability share of approximately $250,000. Despite these settlements, HMA continued its operations until 1986 when its insurance company withdrew support due to reckless practices, forcing the closure of the plasma program. Subsequent investigations by the Institute for Law and Policy Planning from Berkeley, California, sought to scrutinize HMA's behavior rather than the plasma program itself, often shifting blame solely onto the company.

Notable Quote:
Robert Evans [12:07]: "HMA originally may have diverted the Department of Correction payments to support acquiring plasma centers or to other purposes that may well warrant further inquiry."

This indicates potential financial misconduct beyond blood contamination.

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5. Systemic Corruption and Political Connections

A significant portion of the scandal revolves around the involvement of political figures, notably Bill Clinton, who was then the Governor of Arkansas. Leonard Dunn, a banker close to Clinton, played a pivotal role in negotiating favorable terms for HMA and its successor, Pine Bluff Biological Products (PBBP). These arrangements facilitated continued exploitation of inmate labor and the plasma donation program, ensuring substantial profits with minimal oversight.

Notable Quote:
Robert Evans [40:08]: "He doesn't have qualifications to monitor a blood plasma donation program. That's like saying, you know, this guy's a great helicopter pilot. Let's put him in charge of making sure all the hearts we put in people are working."

This criticism underscores the misplaced trust in politically connected individuals lacking relevant expertise.

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6. Impact on Canada and the UK

The fallout from HMA and PBBP's contaminated plasma exports had catastrophic effects internationally. In Canada, the Canadian Red Cross had to cease blood collection operations due to the crisis. The UK faced what was termed the "worst treatment disaster in the history of the NHS," with thousands of hemophiliacs suffering from hepatitis C and HIV infections.

Notable Quote:
Robert Evans [33:09]: "Most of the victims believe the blood and clotting factors they were using came from British donors. The possibility that the blood might have been imported did not even occur to them."

This highlights the lack of transparency and awareness among the victims regarding the source of their blood products.

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7. Legal and Media Aftermath

Efforts to sue the responsible parties were largely hindered by cross-border legal challenges. Additionally, media coverage and documentaries, such as Kelly Duda's "Factor 8: The Arkansas Prison Blood Scandal," faced distribution obstacles, allegedly due to political pressures aimed at silencing the narrative.

Notable Quote:
Robert Evans [57:35]: "Find the documentary Factor 8 so I can watch it. That's what I'm gonna plug. Somebody's gotta have it out there."

This plea underscores the struggle to bring suppressed truths to light.

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8. Conclusion: Systemic Issues and Personal Accountability

Evans and Bolin conclude by emphasizing that the tragedy was not solely the result of individual malfeasance but stemmed from entrenched systemic corruption within the blood plasma industry and political institutions. They argue that while individuals like Bill Clinton bear significant responsibility, the broader issue lies in the intersection of profit motives and lack of stringent oversight, which permitted such unethical practices to proliferate.

Notable Quote:
Ben Bolin [56:21]: "it is tempting again to look at the headline to put a face on a problem right now. I'm mad insert individual here. The real problems are systemic and have always been and shall always be so."

This encapsulates the overarching theme of systemic failure over individual blame.

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Final Thoughts

"Behind the Bastards: How Tainted Human Blood Became A Major U.S. Export" serves as a chilling reminder of how systemic corruption and ethical breaches can lead to widespread human suffering. The episode meticulously traces the trajectory from HMA's initial misconduct to the global health disasters that ensued, highlighting the complex interplay between profit-driven motives and political influence. Through detailed analysis and poignant quotations, Evans and Bolin shed light on a dark chapter of medical and political history, urging listeners to recognize and address the systemic issues that allow such tragedies to occur.

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For more detailed accounts and nuanced discussions, listen to the full episode on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you access your favorite podcasts.

Transcript

[Robert Evans]

Call Zone Media. Welcome back to the podcast that this is, which is behind the Bastards. A podcast about how to mine prison labor for their sweet, sweet blood. Uh oh, hepatitis. That's the story we're telling the day. Yeah. Whoops. All heps. B, C, all of the heps. Collect them all, folks. If you're getting doing blood donations with needles that have been used on dozens of other people in the prison. Anyway, Ben Bolan, my guest today. Ben. Ridiculous history stuff they don't want you to know. Podcast maven impresario. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. How you doing? How you feeling?

[Ben Bolin]

I'm doing well. I gotta tell you, Robert, I got a little bit of epaulette envy right now because your jacket's pretty sick. I got. I got a jacket like that, but it's stored away for specific purposes. I apologize. I'm like some guy rocking up to the White House without a suit on.

[Robert Evans]

I mean, I live in a place where you get to wear clothing like this regularly. Cause it's cold. So. It's part of why I left Texas. I really like jackets and boy, very few places are worse for needing a jacket than Texas.

[Ben Bolin]

You heard it here first, folks.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, yeah.

[Damien Hirst]

Do you remember what you said the first night I came over here?

[Ben Bolin]

Ow. Go slower.

[Damien Hirst]

From Blumhouse TV, I Heart podcasts and Ember 20 comes an all new fictional comedy podcast series. Join the flighty Damien Hirst as he unravels the mystery of his vanished boyfriend. I've been spending all my time looking for answers about what happened to Santi and what's the way to find a missing person. Sleep with everyone he knew, obviously. Listen to the hookup on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or. Or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Mary Kay McBrayer]

I'm Mary Kay McBrayer, host of the podcast the Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told. This season explores women from the 19th century to now. Women who were murderers and scammers, but also women who were photojournalists, lawyers, writers, and more. This podcast tells more than just the brutal, gory details of horrific acts. I delve into the good, the bad, the difficult, and all the nuance I can find. Because these are the stories that we need to know to understand the intersection of society, justice, and the fascinating workings of the human psyche. Join me every week as I tell some of the most enthralling true crime stories about women who are not just victims, but heroes or villains, or often somewhere in between. Listen to the greatest true crime stories ever told on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Bob Pittman]

Hi, I'm Bob Pittman, chairman and CEO of iHeartMedia. I'm excited to introduce a brand new season of my podcast, Math and stories from the frontiers of marketing. I'm having conversations with some folks across a wide range of industries to hear how they reach the top of their fields and the lessons they learned along the way that everyone can use. I'll be joined by innovative leaders like chairman and CEO of Elf Beauty, Tarang Amin, legendary singer, songwriter and philanthropist Jewel.

[Robert Evans]

Being a rock star is very fun, but helping people is way more fun.

[Bob Pittman]

And Damian Maldonado, CEO of American Financing.

[Ben Bolin]

I figured out the formula. You just have to work hard, then that's magic.

[Bob Pittman]

Join me as we uncover innovations in data and analytics, the math, and the ever important creative spark, the magic. Listen to math and magic on the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts are wherever you get your podcast.

[Harvey Guillen]

From the producers who brought you Princess of South beach comes a new podcast, the Setup. The setup follows a lonely museum curator, but when the perfect man walks into his life.

[Ben Bolin]

Well, I guess I'm saying I like.

[Robert Evans]

You, you like me.

[Harvey Guillen]

He actually is too good to be true.

[Ben Bolin]

This is a con. I'm conning you to get the Dalalo painting. We could do this together.

[Harvey Guillen]

Listen to the setup on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Robert Evans]

So, you know, let's get back into talking about talking about blood, the big B. So as I mentioned in part one, back in 1983, HMA, that's the company that is doing all of the healthcare and all managing all the blood donation for the Arkansas prisons. They've just been shut down. But then they got reopened after some people who were close to the administration got put in positions in both the prison board and at hma.

[Ben Bolin]

Oh, and HMA is Health Management Associates Incorporated. What do we always say about innocuous names? Right?

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. That's the worst thing ever. Yes. They're just killing people. You really want to just invest in a company called MurderCo? Because MurderCo probably just produces like cat food or something.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah, so they're, they're founded by. They're, they're founded by Janine Murder.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, Janine Murder. You know, she's a great cat food scientist of. Of the New Hampshire murders.

[Ben Bolin]

Of the New Hampshire murders. Yeah. The Granite State.

[Robert Evans]

As I mentioned in part one, in 1983, HMA had sold a bunch of tainted blood plasma for inmates who were known to be positive for or hepatitis. 38 units of blood to be exact. Now, one unit of blood, there's actually varies and I. Cause it depends on like how it's like. It's like roughly a pint. Right. That's what you should keep in mind in your head when you're hearing about a unit of blood. Now, in the grand scheme of things, 38 pints or so of blood that's tainted doesn't sound like a lot. Maybe. However, as I stated in the last episode, all of these are being mixed with tens of thousands of other blood donations. And so these 38 ish pints. Ish of tainted blood can wind up being turned into medicine for tens of thousands of people. Right. Because any given dose of the plasma being given to hemophiliacs is. Factor VIII would be made from the blood of as many as 60,000 donors, and just one tainted donor can spoil the batch. So that's great. So from just 38 pints of donated blood, at least 4,000 doses of dangerous tainted medicine were made and shipped overseas. At least probably significantly more than that. Many made their way into the hands of hemophiliacs who required regular injections of Factor VIII. In 1985, the same year that Clinton's state cops cleared the company of most wrongdoing, a UK hemophilia sufferer named Peter Longstaff tested positive for H. Now, because of the way this all works, we don't know that Peter's tainted plasma came from Arkansas prison inmates. Right. Cause you can't. They're just mixing it. They're not keeping track of. Here's every individual whose blood is in this batch of Factor viii. Right? Right. But he had been taking blood products, including Factor viii and factor 4 since the 70s. And by then, Arkansas was a huge part of the US blood economy. And the odds that blood from Cummins Prison made it into his body are about 100% right, just given the way things worked at that time. His brother also suffered from hemophilia, and his brother Stephen Longstaff would be infected in 1986 and became one of the first people to die of AIDS in the uk. Given the hysteria at the time, this meant not just that the Long staffs weren't just dealing with the fact that two of, you know, both of their sons had gotten sick and in 86, one of them died. But it meant that they also became the targets of mob panic. Per the Guardian, during Steven's final days in hospital, the windows had to be blacked out to prevent people taking pictures on the day of the funeral. The family house was daubed with paint which read aids. Get out of here. It was devastating to the family. His mother said Pete himself recalled being rescued from his house by his GP and the police because there was a mob outside trying to get him because he had hiv.

[Ben Bolin]

Jesus.

[Robert Evans]

So when we talk about how many people are getting sick, it's not just that they're getting a deadly or potentially deadly disease that changes or ends their life. It's also they're dealing with this kind of shit because that is where the culture is at the time.

[Ben Bolin]

You know, the secondary infection. Right. Of people being dicks. Outbreak. Yeah. Of dickishness. Yeah. So we could say then. Yeah, we could say then that not only is this family being targeted unfairly through some groundswell of mob rule, but they're being targeted at one of the worst possible moments of their lives.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. I remember when I was in school in like the 90s, we had like school lectures about how like. Yeah, there was a kid with hiv, I think because he had gotten it through a blood donation and you could still use the water fountain that he used. It wasn't a danger to you, you.

[Ben Bolin]

Know, which might sound silly to us.

[Robert Evans]

It sounds wild now, but no, I remember this.

[Ben Bolin]

Yes, you were there.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Ben Bolin]

Just like you were there at the JFK assassination. We will.

[Robert Evans]

You know, Robert, I know who was there and I know that he is currently, you know, a well regarded US politician, But Bernard Montgomery Sanders has a lot of unanswered questions about that. And that's all we. That's all we need to say. That's all we need to say.

[Ben Bolin]

All right, we're keeping it on air. Bernie, Come find us. Buy some catalytic converters.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. So HMA ultimately settled with the FDA over the blood recall that resulted from this. Their share of the liability was about a quarter of a million dollars. Now, we don't know how much money HMA was making off of this program. And because they weren't really required to like, let people like some. The regulations about this are like, you don't really need to say in the sense that most companies do, but at least a couple of million dollars a year is probably a fair guess based on how, like what the company that takes over for them is going to make. Now, the state police investigation largely cleared the department of any serious wrongdoing in their plasma problem. HMA was eventually given the go ahead to continue operating it with new safeguards in place. Thankfully, the growing panic over HIV and the news of what had happened to the long staffs in the UK prompted some Reexamination. And even though they were allowed to continue in like 84, 85 doing this, this plasma donation program, in the summer of 1986, a hero emerged. And unfortunately in this case, the hero was an insurance company. But like HMA's insurance company, after they, after they looked into the evidence was like, oh, absolutely not. No, you people are gonna get us fucked. Like, you're so reckless we're dropping your asses, right? This meant that the Arkansas prison plasma donation program was again forced to shut down. And this is going to lead to some of the most, I mean, less irresponsible actions than we've had so far. So one of the things that happens once HMA gets shut down by their insurer, the prison board, in which the guy we heard from last episode, Clinton aide Bobby Rober, is a member of the board, they actually, they're like, they, they might come to the conclusion that like that state police investigation might have been shit and they hire an outside organization to do a better version of the internal investigation into what had happened. Now the group they picked was the Institute for Law and Policy Planning from Berkeley, California, which is a lot better than having the state police do it. But the subject of the investigation wasn't the plasma donation program itself, it was just the behavior of hma. So part of what they're doing here, it's good that we get this info, but part what they're doing is like, well, we don't want to be like shitting on the prison system. We want to make this company, who we already can't work with anymore, into a scapegoat.

[Ben Bolin]

So they scoped in and cauterized the wu, essentially, Right?

[Robert Evans]

Exactly. Yes. Yeah. And this is how the paper concludes HMA originally may have diverted the Department of Correction payments to support acquiring plasma centers or to other purposes that may well warrant further inquiry. In any event, it was early in the five year contract period that HMA established a pattern of contract shortfalls and the ADC accepted them. For hma, this must all be viewed as profit motivated business decision making at best. At worst, it calls for further inquiry. So just like so many crimes are going on here. Yeah, yeah. Now even though it has concluded this, again, it's just blaming hma. So the people running the prison system still want to make money off of blood. So the, the Arkansas Department of Corrections makes a deal with a new company, Pine Bluff Biological Products, a for profit business, and obviously one that's not going to continue the same problems. These guys are finally going to be ethical, finally on up and up, up and up.

[Ben Bolin]

Someone doing blood money the right way.

[Robert Evans]

Yes.

[Ben Bolin]

You know what I mean?

[Robert Evans]

Exactly. Ethical. Just like the ethical blood diamonds that I wear in my all diamond chiffon. I don't know what a chiffon is.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah, but you know, yours is diamond encrusted. That's the important part of the story.

[Robert Evans]

Yes. And they're not blood diamonds. They're blood plasma diamonds, which is much more ethical.

[Ben Bolin]

Think about it. That's why I made my money off a platelet. Emerald mine.

[Robert Evans]

Exactly. Exactly. Platelets make the best emeralds. I assume so. Bobby Roberts would later allege of Pine Bluff Biological Products getting the new blood contract. Quote, I think it was an insider Pine Bluff deal. There were. Those were companies set up specifically for doing business with the adc. Basically, people who were running the Department of Corrections went to rich, you know, entrepreneur friends of theirs and were like, here's what you need to do to set up a company to like, make this work. Right Now. I know what you're asking now. How much money was in this business for the prison system? And the answer.

[Ben Bolin]

Wait, wait, wait. Let me do it. Hey, Robert. How much money was in this for the prison system?

[Robert Evans]

The answer is less than you'd think. Here's the Arkansas Times. According to Roberts records, PBBP reported collecting an average of 960 units of plasma a week in fiscal year 1986. Calculated a conserving selling rate of $50 a unit, that volume of plasma grossed approximately 2.5 million that year. According to PBBP's contract, the ADC was to receive $5 for every unit of plasma collected. So here's how the numbers looked in a year when the median income in Arkansas was half of what it is today. Today, and when the scourge of contaminated blood products was being felt around the world. Of PBBP's 2.5 million in annual gross sales, 350,000 went to pay inmates their $7 a unit fees. The state of Arkansas collected $249,600 for prison operations. And PBBP had gross revenues of almost 1.9 million. Now, that sounds weirdly small for this. First off, this is not all the money that's coming in through the program. But second, what's happening here is the state and the prisons are getting a little bit of this money. And most of that prisoner money is also going back into the Department of Corrections. Cause they're using it to buy things from the prisons. Most of the money is going to pbbp. And again, this is a company that has been set up specifically to interface with the Department of Corrections, generally by people who had relationships with people in Arkansas government who were responsible for making these calls. So they basically created a free company to siphon off money from prisons. Right? That's kind of what's happened here.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah, that's the question. I think all of us hearing this are going to be asking naturally, is this a cutout? Is this like a proxy to move or sluice some money through?

[Robert Evans]

That's an element of what is going on. And there's also serious debates as to these numbers. This is what the Arkansas Times suggests. Sophia Chase wrote for the William and Mary Business Law Review that the value of a unit of blood to the prison was about 100 bucks, and the person kept half of that, as opposed to like $5 per unit. So there may have been a lot more going into the system. The fact that the money on this is so unclear in its precise details is one of the things that's shady.

[Ben Bolin]

Saxophone.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. Now, even if, let's say it's about $2 million that PBBP is grossing now, it's gross, not yet net, but they effectively have almost no costs because they don't build their own facilities. They are using a plasmapheresis center built into Cummins for free. That's part of the contract. The Department of Corrections handles all utilities and all janitorial work. And it's also guards who are working, reaching out to prisoners to get them to sign on to the program and busing them to Cummins. And it's still a lot of inmates doing the work. So really, PPP is just skimming $2 million out of this program and handing it to some people who have connections to folks who are, you know, close to the adc. Right.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

So as far as I can tell, all PBBP the company did was sell blood without checking to make sure it was safe and pocketed the money on paper. They were supposed to assume liability for all plasma products produced through this and ensure they provided staff to handle the draw and that those staff were licensed professionals who would check the product. But the ADC also kept giving them inmates to do blood draws and other work that, by the text of the contract, professional PBBP employees ought only to have been doing. Roberts described the PBBP looking at the inmates as, quote, sort of as little cows. Right. You'll hear this description a lot, that they're like, this is. These are. Yeah, these are animals that we are mining for the products of their body. Now, by 1986, when PBBP starts, we are four years past the point where the US has essentially soft banned the use of domestic inmate blood. However, it continues to be used for export products. Qatar Laboratories, which is one of the companies involved in the nuts and bolts parts of turning whole blood into like blood products, publishes an internal memo around this time that highlights the attitude many in the industry had to the idea of excluding prison plasma donations. There are no data to support the emotional arguments that prison plasma collected from adequately screened prisoners is bad. To exclude such plasma from manufacture of our coagulation product would only be a SOP or a gratuity to the gay rights movement and would presage further pressure to exclude plasma collected from the Mexican border and the paid donor.

[Ben Bolin]

Say it. Say it one more time. Just say it one more time.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, yeah. To exclude such plasma from manufacture of our coagulation product would only be a sober gratuity to the gay rights movement and would presage further pressure to exclude plasma collected from the Mexican border and the paid debt.

[Ben Bolin]

Oh my gosh. Yeah, well, someone.

[Robert Evans]

We'll make less money if we have to use blood that isn't taken coercively by people who have an incentive to lie about whether or not they're sick. And again, when I talk about there being a lot more money, like what PBP is making is the initial money for selling this plasma. Right? And both the plasma and the whole blood that's coming in through these donation programs are worth a shitload more once you spin them out into the different blood factors. Right. So there's a whole higher level of profit that these companies like Qatar are making. Right. Likewise, you know, the US has said we're not using this stuff domestically for medicine. And likewise, our foreign friends in the UK and Canada don't allow blood from prison inmates to be used in medicine. But a system had been devised to ensure plausible deniability. The blood that came out of Cummins and other donor programs in the US was sold to Continental Pharmacrino in Montreal. And this major blood broker resells the whole blood in plasma all around the world. And it also sells to a Toronto based company, Conant Laboratories, who effectively played the role of blood launderer and sent this tainted blood to the Canadian Red Cross. The laundering process was so effective that, as Sophia Chase writes, in at least one case, the blood was sent back to the United States. So we are also using tainted blood in the US from inmates, even though we're not supposed to be, because it's being Sold to Canada and then sold back to us sometimes. Like.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah, yeah. Excuse me. Excuse me, waiter. Send this blood back.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, send this blood back across the border to our good friends.

[Ben Bolin]

Also. Blood launderer as a job.

[Robert Evans]

This is blood laundering. Yeah.

[Ben Bolin]

We're in the wrong business.

[Robert Evans]

There's so much money laundering, blood. Oh, man.

[Ben Bolin]

Do you ever think about that?

[Robert Evans]

I do, I do. You know, I have a shitload of blood in my house. I keep it.

[Ben Bolin]

People always say that.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, I keep it in my basement. I don't know if it needs to be refrigerated, but, you know, make me an offer, folks. If you need a shitload of blood, I got it.

[Ben Bolin]

Cool store is cool blood stored in a dark place.

[Robert Evans]

Cool Zone is getting into the blood business. So you're legally not allowed to ask me where it came from.

[Ben Bolin]

It's illegal for you guys to ask Robert that.

[Robert Evans]

It's important. It's so important we can't know.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah. It's also important to realize that the fewer questions you ask, the bigger of a price break you get. That's right. And that seems to be an unfortunate truth, as this, we could even call it a sort of blood economy begins to arise.

[Robert Evans]

That's right. That's right. And speaking of the economy, I don't know if our sponsors sell blood, but they sell other stuff. So go buy it and then give me your blood.

[Kevin Smith]

Hey, kids, it's me, Kevin Smith.

[Robert Evans]

And it's me, Harley Quinn Smith.

[Kevin Smith]

That's my daughter, man. Who my wife has always said is just a beardless D. Ckless version of me. And that's the name of our podcast. Beardless D Ckless Me.

[Robert Evans]

I'm the old one, I'm the young one.

[Kevin Smith]

And every week we try to make each other laugh really hard. Sounds innocent, doesn't it? A lot of cussing, a lot of bad language. It's for adults only. Or listen to it with your kid. Could be a family show. We're not quite sure. We're still figuring it out.

[Robert Evans]

It's a work in progress.

[Kevin Smith]

Listen to Beardless me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Damien Hirst]

Do you remember what you said the first night I came over here?

[Ben Bolin]

Ow. Go slower.

[Damien Hirst]

From Blumhouse TV, iHeart podcasts and Ember 20 comes an all new fictional comedy podcast series. Join the flighty Damien Hirst as he unravels the mystery of his vanished boyfriend. And Santi was gone. I've been spending all my time looking for animals answers about what happened to Santi and What's the way to find a missing person? Sleep with everyone he knew, obviously. Hmm. Pillow talk. The most unwelcome window into the human psyche. Follow our out of his element hero as he engages in a series of ill conceived investigative hookups. Mama always used to say God gave me gumption in place of a gag reflex. And as I was about to learn, no amount of showering can wash your hands of a bad hookup.

[Mary Kay McBrayer]

Now take a big whiff, my bruh.

[Damien Hirst]

Listen to the hookup on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Mary Kay McBrayer]

Hi listeners. I'm Mary Kay McBrayer, host of the podcast the Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told, Season two. Our show is a little different from other true crime podcasts because we tell the stories in which women are not just the victims, but the heroes or the villains. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of the Greatest True Crime stories ever told, season one and season two, 100% ad free plus plus you'll get access to all episodes of the Greatest True Crime stories ever told, season two, one week ahead of everyone else. Available only to iHeart True Crime plus subscribers. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for I Heart True Crime plus and subscribe today.

[Robert Evans]

Foreign.

[Cheekies]

Hey y'all, it's your girl, Cheekies. And I'm back with a brand new season of your favorite podcast, Cheekies and Chill. I'll be sharing even more personal stories with you guys and I know a lot of people are gonna attack me.

[Ben Bolin]

Why?

[Cheekies]

Are you gonna go visit your dad? Your mom wouldn't be okay with it. I'm gonna tell you guys right now. I know my mother and I know my mom had a very forgiving heart. That is my story on plastic surgery. This is my truth. I think the last time I cried like that was when I lost my mom like that. Like, yelling. I was like, no.

[Robert Evans]

I was like, oh.

[Cheekies]

And I thought, what did I do wrong? And as always, you'll get my exclusive take on topics like love, personal growth, health, family ties, and more. And don't forget, I'll also be dishing out my best advice to you on episodes of Dear Cheeky. Peace.

[Harvey Guillen]

So my fiance and I have been.

[Damien Hirst]

Together for 10 years.

[Harvey Guillen]

In the first two years of being.

[Robert Evans]

Together, I find out he is cheating on me. Not only with women, but also with men. What should I do?

[Cheekies]

Okay, where do I start? That's not love. He doesn't love you enough. Because if he loved you he'd be faithful. It's going to be an exciting year and I hope that you can join me, listen to Cheekies and Chill Season four as part of the My Cultura Podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Robert Evans]

We're back. So even under pbbp, this new company, the same problems persisted. Prisoners continue to be involved in running the plasma program. They regularly overbleed each other because it means more money for them. And neither the prison system nor the company has a financial interest in stopping that. Records are regularly falsified and destroyed. Earlier in these episodes, we quoted from Clinton friend and prison board member body Bobby Roberts. He's been something of a whistleblower about the program, but just to an extent. When the FDA published a study alleging that prison plasma was likelier to be tainted with blood than plasma donated elsewhere, Roberts told reporters from the Arkansas Times this. I deny the premise. I disagree that prison plasma blood was more dangerous than what was coming out of the for profit centers. In the free world out there, anybody could bleed anybody. But the problem isn't everyone has blood. The problem is that it's not being checked. And there's a lot of incentives to lie when you're sick, when you have no other way of making money. Cuz you're in prison, right?

[Ben Bolin]

Also, you can't just say, I disagree with the premise.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, it's like the fda, you're not. You're Bobby Roberts. For one thing, your name's Bobby Roberts. Immediately I'm less likely to take you seriously about medical science. Both of your names are the same.

[Ben Bolin]

I just, I love the idea of Bob Rob pulling a hot tag base on something where, you know, like this guy might get arrested with a bunch of guns. With the serial numbers filed off and they're like, hey, we got you with a bunch of guns, you know, in your Honda Civic. And he's like, officer, I disagree with the premise.

[Robert Evans]

I disagree with the premise. That article continues to summarize Robert's his argument. Roberts bases his confidence in the state's plasma program on the fact that unlike downtown plasma centers, the ADC had medical records on every inmate who participated. It knew who was safe to bleed, he says, and who wasn't. Can we take a, can we take.

[Ben Bolin]

A second to also.

[Robert Evans]

Come on, man.

[Ben Bolin]

The use of the word bleed, like.

[Robert Evans]

This is just so safe to bleed, right? To bleed. Yes.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

No, he's right. The prison has records.

[Ben Bolin]

Oh, good.

[Robert Evans]

It often knows when people have bloodborne illnesses. The issue is that they don't care. Per the paper written by Sophia Chase, multiple witnesses to the events claim that the plasma center accepted some donations from prisoners known to fail the required qualifications. A previous inmate, Louis Sorrels, described the conditions at the prison. You had prisoners bribing prisoners, prisoners bribing officials, officials offering certain deals for them to bleed for extra money or drugs. Soros himself passed away from hepatitis C shortly after the interview. He became infected with this disease during his time at Cummins Prison. And because of the previous scandals under hma, there are more outside investigations into the plasma program after this point. A few years after PBBP takes over, an FDA inspector reports them for poor screening procedures and record keeping. The prison officials who managed the program for PBBP were also accused of using prison guards to recruit inmates. Despite this, in an interview with a local reporter, prison medical director John Bias, who is like, you know, like the medical director of the prison, Right. Said this. We plan to stick with the plasma program to the last day, to the last drop we're able to sell.

[Ben Bolin]

Wow.

[Robert Evans]

Okay, cool. Why, given all of the bad stuff, why?

[Ben Bolin]

It sounds like one of those things where the public, wider audience is somehow different from the specific audience this guy is speaking to. Yeah, maybe he might be given some guarantees to some folks.

[Robert Evans]

Now, in 1991, a company from New York takes the contract from PBBP and they continue to mine prisoners for blood plasma until 1990. By this point, not only was the HIV crisis more fully understood, but the consequences of all those years of tainted blood getting shotgunned out onto the world market had become undeniable. And this is where we get to the body count best. As we can tell, more than a thousand Canadian hemophiliacs were dosed with tainted blood from Cummins prison alone. During this time frame, 42,000 Canadians were infected with hepatitis C and thousands more with HIV through tainted plasma, often including plasma imported from Cummins. Current estimates expect about 7,000 total deaths of Canadian citizens from contaminated blood sold by the US during this period. About two 9, 11s, a little more.

[Ben Bolin]

And to be clear, these are all for everyone listening. These are all innocent people who are.

[Robert Evans]

Easily preventable deaths too.

[Ben Bolin]

Yes, easily preventable deaths also. This is medicine that they need to live.

[Robert Evans]

Yes, yes, yes. And the shockwaves in Canada. Canada takes substantial action here. Right? The Canadian Red Cross has to declare bankruptcy and is no longer allowed to collect blood. As a result of the fallout of this, the Canadian government launched a commission in 1995 to trace the blood that had poisoned so many of Their citizens. Which is how we first learned that Canada's blood supply had been tainted by blood from sick US prison inmates. Right. They trace a lot of it back to Cummins Connaught Laboratories, which is the Canadian company that's like making the blood product was obviously proven negligent in all this, largely because they had avoided checking any of the plasma collection sites themselves and had relied on FDA records which were also deficient. Subsequent investigations showed that Arkansas, it's a little bit like if you've heard the story of, like the rust shooting, right? Where like the first AD assistant director was supposed to check the gun to see if it was empty. Alongside the armorer was also supposed to check the gun to see if it was empty. And the first AD didn't really do a check. Cause he assumed the armorer had done it. Right. And the armorer had not done it. It's like that, right? Like, Connaught was just like, the FDA's probably got it. We don't need to spend any money checking. And like, they really did. The FDA didn't have it, you know. Subsequent investigations showed that Arkansas prison blood was a significant contributor to Canada's Hep C and HIV crisis in this period. And that both U.S. blood brokers and the FDA to inform Canadian companies where the blood they were buying had come from and that much of it was being sent from facilities which had already been linked to tainted blood sales. There have been attempts at lawsuits over this, but the difficulties of carrying out such a suit cross border have mostly stymied the efforts of Canadian hemophiliacs to get justice. As I discussed earlier, a good deal of the tainted blood from the US also went to Great Britain, where it helped cause what Lord Robert Winston described as the worst treatment disaster in the history of the nhs. All thanks to our American friends. Oh, good, the worst.

[Ben Bolin]

The young upstarts.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Bolin]

Oh, our shitty cousins crap the bag once again.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. From that article by Sophia Chase. Most of the victims believe the blood and clotting factors they were using came from British donors. The possibility that the blood might have been imported did not even occur to them, much less the prospect that it might not meet British health standards. The disaster left 4,670 British hemophiliacs infected with hepatitis C and 1243 of those were also infected with HIV. About 2,000 have died at this point. Right. Also, many of them spread diseases to partners and children. We'll never fully have an understanding of the exact cons, but at least 2,000 dead. And again, there were like, you know, investigations into this as well, quote, it ultimately determined that a. A significant burden of responsibility for tainted blood provided to British hemophiliacs rests on American suppliers of Factor VIII concentrate. Now, due to the way things were done at the time, it was not possible to determine how many of those deaths were directly linked to Cummins Prison. Again, there have been changes in how stuff is reported to try and make it easier to trace back tainted blood, but that didn't exist at the time. We know at least three. Right. So we know it was happening. It's gotta be thousands more than that. Right. Cause it's incredibly hard to actually trace this. Right. In part because one of the things they found when they realized how many British people had gotten HIV and hepatitis and were dying, they found that most of the records for blood transactions to import blood into the UK had been shredded in the early 1990s.

[Ben Bolin]

Accidentally, surely. Oops.

[Robert Evans]

Oops. Surely. Nothing shady there.

[Ben Bolin]

Right?

[Robert Evans]

Right.

[Ben Bolin]

Have you ever found yourself in that situation?

[Robert Evans]

Oh, gosh. Whoopsy doodles.

[Ben Bolin]

Whoops. You just trip with a stack of papers and fall toward the shredder.

[Robert Evans]

I'm always shredding medical documents. That's like 80% of my day job is shredding medical documents from the uk. I don't even know what they're about. You know, they just send them to me in boxes and I just shred.

[Ben Bolin]

That's how you and I got started before this whole podcasting thing. We would just hang out and throw some stuff into shredders and you would.

[Robert Evans]

Always say to each other, that's the future of media. Shredding British medical paperwork.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We weren't entirely wrong, but we had too much blood back then.

[Robert Evans]

We did have way too much blood.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

So it may seem baffling that like there was not more oversight, given the way things work with the na, especially at this point, worked at the nhs. But the blood export industry in the UK was considered uniquely favored. Right. Which means there were exempt from some of the same oversight because, number one, and this is the same in Canada, not nearly enough British people or Canadians were donating blood. They just didn't have enough. And the US was considered the gold standard planet wide for blood distribution because no one else could gather and disseminate anywhere. Again, 70% of the blood products worldwide coming from the US, no one else. So everyone is just like, they must have this shit figured out, right? No, but, yeah, but because our system was the largest by far, everyone relied on it and it became the global standard. And other national healthcare agencies and companies just sort of assumed that US regulators had our shit together because the only other option was to not have enough blood. Now that's the bulk of this story. But before we close out here, I should talk about something thing. So there is apparently an exceptional documentary made about all this called Factor 8, the Arkansas prison blood scandal. It was made by Kelly Duda, a filmmaker and investigative journalist who won a Peabody Award in 2003 for a Japanese documentary about the COVID up by the government of a Hep C epidemic. She spent eight years researching and five years filming this movie which prompted an international response. And even she gets called into a criminal trial in Naples for a company accused of selling tainted blood products to Italian citizens. It's supposed to be excellent. I haven't seen it and I wanted to. It is not available anywhere online that I can find. When you look on like reddits and stuff, it will be all. It's always blamed on the Clintons, right? Like they stopped this documentary from getting out. I know that Duda has alleged she received like harassment and stuff while she was making the documentary. That said, when you talk about like the bad things the Clintons did, this is especially Bill, an incredibly powerful man who was involved in a lot of shady stuff. There's also a whole industry of right wing content dedicated to like lying about shit, including like the Clinton murder list and stuff that's just nonsense, right? So it's difficult to parse a lot of stuff out. Now there is no doubting that Bill Clinton deserves a massive degree of blame for the Arkansas blood scandal because he was the governor and because he put people who were close to him directly in positions to manage the program. No arguments period that he does not deserve a meaningful amount of blame for this. Right? But a lot of these other allegations, right, like the fact that are the Clintons locking down access, have they used their influence? It's like, I mean it's not powerful. People do that with documentaries. But also a lot of the time I'm doing episodes, I found out there's a 20 year old documentary about it and I can't find that documentary cause it's not on stream streaming. That just happens with media. So like is the likeliest thing the Clintons locked. I don't, I don't. I have no evidence of that. Right. I've had this happen to a bunch of documentaries over the years that said I would love to see this documentary. So if you've got it, hit us up and I don't know, someone put it on Fucking streaming. Now the most credible allegations that I've heard when it comes to like, like you know, the, the corruption here is that money from this blood program was used to provide positions to people as political favors where they could profit while doing very little. And it's certainly true that the state Department of Corrections doesn't make a ton from the blood program. Right. However, other people in and around the state government make an unknown amount of money acting as grease around HMA and then PBBP's wheels here. One example is Leonard Dunn. That is the law. That is the, the guy who gets brought in to run HMA right around the time of the first blood scandal. He's a banker. A state police investigator wrote that Dunn had advised him, quote, he was close to Governor Clinton as well as a majority of state politicians presently in office. Mr. Dunn explained that he was very fond of politics. Dunn added that he was the financial portion of the corporation as well as the political arm. Despite this, he also claimed he never took an active role in the company on a day to day basis. Okay man.

[Ben Bolin]

Oh sure, sure. Yeah, good story bro.

[Robert Evans]

But Dunn does handle when HMA loses the contract. Briefly, he is the guy negotiating with the corrections board so that it can keep taking and selling plasma. And since his company had just paid out to the FDA for letting tainted blood out of the country, you might imagine these would be difficult negotiations. But the main result of these negotiations was that Dunn, in order to get the corrections board to agree, agreed to bring in an ombudsman to act as a compliance coordinator to ensure HMA followed the rules going forward. This ombudsman was Richard Mays, a Little Rock judge who had been appointed by Governor Clinton. His job at HMA was described by the state police as a bribe because again, he's not really doing anything. They're just like, yeah, just give another guy who like we owe a favor a job and pay him some money. He doesn't have to do much.

[Ben Bolin]

Let's make it official with our bud. Now you're an alms bud?

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. Right. Now the specific choice to bring on done seems to have been made by the Arkansas Board of Corrections Chairman Woodson Rocker Walker, who claimed that he discussed it with Governor Clinton who was so upset that he held Walker personally responsible for the next provider chosen. And Walker and Clinton jointly suggested Mays. Right, that's, that's what Walker claims. You know, obviously he's in trouble here so. But you know, know the fact that this guy who Clinton appoints as a judge becomes gets this bribe Job. I don't think Clinton had nothing to do with that. To quote from Susie Parker's article, HMA President Dunn told investigators Dunn stated that Walker advised him that Mays was black. A plus in a system where most of the inmates are black, had good qualifications and was an outstanding attorney, according to investigators notes.

[Ben Bolin]

I like the order of operations with those commendations, you know, like. Oh, and third, he's pretty good.

[Robert Evans]

He's a good lawyer.

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah, yeah, he's all right at that one.

[Robert Evans]

But first, yeah. Now obviously I'm not saying he's not a good attorney, but he doesn't have qualifications to monitor a blood plasma donation program. Yeah, that's like saying, you know, this guy's a great helicopter pilot. Let's put him in charge of making sure all the hearts we put in people are working. It's like he doesn't know how to do that. Like. Yeah, but you have something.

[Ben Bolin]

You haven't seen him on the bird.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, you know what I mean? Man, the way this guy flies, he could really pick out a good kidney.

[Ben Bolin]

You can just. It's something in the eyes, you know, it's a vibe.

[Robert Evans]

Simply not the same job. Now, there are other allegations of kickbacks and bribery at high levels in the system. Mike Galster was a medical practitioner who worked in Cummins prison during the height of the HMA days. And he later wrote a fictionalized novel about his experiences and claimed that he had to leave the company after an HMA associate demanded he give some of his earnings to him in order to keep his job. Quote, the way Arkansas works is that once you are working within the system, the people in charge make it clear that it is a privilege to have that state contract. Ultimately you are expected to pay for that privilege. This I know Galster continues. Without the governor's support and protection, this disease riddled system would have been shut down by 1982. Again, Clinton doesn't make the system this way, but he is a guy who continues to work within a system in order to get the stuff done that he wants to get done. And the fact that that system existed before and after him does not exempt him from responsibility for participating in it.

[Ben Bolin]

Nor exonerate, to be quite honest. And I love the point that we're bringing up here about how easy it is to heap opprobrium on someone that you already don't care for or disagree with. But just like the soul crushing thing where someone you hate makes a really good point objectively, you also have to have that moment where even someone you might like, does really just unclean, evil shit for a federal judge to say there are evil people involved.

[Robert Evans]

And it's the issue of both. Like, it is important to hold Clinton's. I mean, he didn't. No one held his feet to the point. It would have been important for them to have done this as a result of this. It's also important for it not to be what a lot of people tried to make it, where it's like, well, this is purely a Clinton scandal. No, I mean, this is like. Like an Arkansas scandal. It's like a blood industry scandal. This is a lot of very important. And if you're. If you're picking out one of the threads involved in this scandal, then you're ignoring all of the other ones, and you're like, it becomes clear, okay, well, you hate Governor Clinton. But, like, if a governor you didn't hate had been doing all of the same things, you wouldn't have given a shit. You know, like, yeah, you would have.

[Ben Bolin]

Been like, you know, people like blood.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. These are systemic issues, and we both need to blame and punish individual people responsible for them and understand how the systemic part plays into it so that we don't just put like, well, no, I like this, Governor. So I'm just not gonna pay attention to what's being done in the Arkansas prisons anymore.

[Ben Bolin]

You know, maybe the problem is monetizing everything.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, maybe the problem is monetizing everything. Like those early reports said, if you make blood donation, be entirely driven by money. There's a lot of issues you have to deal with. Now, the other issue is like, well, then how do we get all the blood we need? Because, like, if we don't have enough, there's never enough. How do we get the blood we need?

[Ben Bolin]

Yeah, there's never an organ surplus.

[Robert Evans]

Right. And so there's a degree to which, like, as much as we're critiquing parts of this, there are certain things I know that we shouldn't have been doing, like running a blood program the way they did at Cummins Prison. But when it comes to, like, how do we get enough blood? Well, nobody's figured that out yet. I don't know.

[Ben Bolin]

Nobody's figured that out except for Robert Evans, creator of behind the Bastards, who has several jars of.

[Robert Evans]

We'll call it gently used vintage Blint Invented blood. Maybe a little bit of lamb's blood in there. I might have thinned it out with some coconut milk. You're good. You're good. Take it.

[Ben Bolin]

You're good. No refunds. Also contains X amount of ethanol now.

[Robert Evans]

You know who else doesn't give refunds?

[Ben Bolin]

Who's that?

[Robert Evans]

The sponsors of this podcast that we're hoping to keep, Robert. Maybe they give refunds. I don't know. I never check.

[Kevin Smith]

Hey, kids, it's me, Kevin Smith.

[Harvey Guillen]

And it's me, Harley Quinn Smith.

[Kevin Smith]

That's my daughter, man. Who my wife has always said is just a beardless dless version of me. And that's the name of our podcast. Beardless Dless Me.

[Robert Evans]

I'm the old one, I'm the young one.

[Kevin Smith]

And every week we try to make each other laugh really hard. Sounds innocent, doesn't it? A lot of cussing, a lot of bad language. It's for adults only. Or listen to it with your kid. Could be a family show. We're not quite sure. We're still figuring it out.

[Robert Evans]

It's a work in progress.

[Kevin Smith]

Listen to Beardless me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Damien Hirst]

Do you remember what you said the first night I came over here?

[Ben Bolin]

Ow. Go slower.

[Damien Hirst]

From Blumhouse TV, iHeart podcasts and Ember 20 comes an all new fictional comedy podcast series. Join the flighty Damien Hirst as he unravels the mystery of his vanished boyfriend. And Santi was gone. I've been spending all my time looking for answers about what happened to Santi and what's the way to find a missing person. Sleep with everyone he knew, obviously. Hmm. Pillow talk. The most unwelcome window into the human psyche. Follow our out of his element hero as he engages in a series of ill conceived investigative hookups. Mama always used to say, God gave me gumption in place of a gag reflex. And as I was about to learn, no amount of showering can wash your hands of a bad hookup.

[Mary Kay McBrayer]

Now take a big whiff, my bruh.

[Damien Hirst]

Listen to the hookup on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Mary Kay McBrayer]

Hi, listener. Hey guys. I'm Mary Kay McBrayer, host of the podcast the Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told, Season two. Our show is a little different from other true crime podcasts because we tell the stories in which women are not just the victims, but the heroes or the villains. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of the Greatest True Crime Stories ever told, season one and season two, 100% ad free. Plus you'll get access to all episodes of the Greatest True Crime Stories ever told season two, one week ahead of everyone else available only to iHeart True Crime plus subscribers. So don't wait. Head to Apple podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime plus and subscribe. Today.

[Harvey Guillen]

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[Ben Bolin]

Well, I guess I'm saying I like.

[Robert Evans]

You, you like me.

[Harvey Guillen]

He actually is too good to be true.

[Ben Bolin]

This is a con. I'm conning you to get the delamo painting. We could do this together.

[Harvey Guillen]

To pull off this heist, they'll have to get close and jump into the deep end together.

[Damien Hirst]

That's a huge leap, Fernando, don't you think?

[Ben Bolin]

After you, Chulito.

[Harvey Guillen]

But love is the biggest risk they'll ever take.

[Robert Evans]

Fernando's never going to love you as much as he loves this job.

[Ben Bolin]

That painting is ours.

[Harvey Guillen]

Listen to the setup as part of the Mike Gutura Podcast Network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Robert Evans]

We're back. So a good deal of the information in this article comes from a 1998 piece published by Arkansas investigative journalist Susie Parker. She also published an article on the Whitewater scandal for the New York Times, which was a big scandal for the Clintons while he was in office. That, like, is incredibly boring today because political scandals have gotten so much worse. Like, it's so quaint that, like, oh, man, remember when people were upset about these, like, shady business dealings the president might be tied to? Good Lord, guys, this dude may have.

[Ben Bolin]

Made a couple hundred thousand dollars illegally. So let's rebuild those guillotines.

[Robert Evans]

Anyway, the President said he's a king. It's just things are a lot worse. I'm not saying Whitewater was okay. I'm just saying, like, things are so much worse. Now. Susie has worked for a number of publications, and she has a particular fixation on Arkansas politics and the Clintons. Today she runs a local independent publication called the Reckoning. And she is quite conservative. Right. She is a right wing, at least separately, more sympathetic to that. That I think she does portray Clinton's involvement as, like, more direct and puppet mastery than it was. I think this was something Clinton acceded to both because he gained some benefit from, like, you know, giving some of these positions to people close to him and because not messing with this allowed him to do. It was like a. Politics was a trade for him. Right. Whereas, like, the other people running the Board of Corrections and Running these. These were the people who were like directly setting up the system like this. Again, I think Clinton knew quite a bit of how bad this was and made some choices here, but he's not the puppet master right now. One of the issues here comes that alongside some strong connections, which again, don't imply that Clinton operated this program, but do that, he deserves quite a lot.

[Ben Bolin]

Of blame or at least willfully ignorant.

[Robert Evans]

Yes. There's also some species allegations, for example, Galster, that former doctor, claims that Vince Foster was hired to squash the state investigation. Now, this was true, and Vince Foster is a very close Clinton associate. If this is true, that investigation happened and in fact described some of what was going on as bribery. And then there's an independent review ordered by the prison board which had Clinton allies on it. So I don't know how much I believe that this is like a big deal. But the reason this is seen as a smoking gun, right, by some people is that In July of 1993, after Governor Clinton became President Clinton, Vince Foster shot himself to death in Washington, D.C. foster had discussed his depression with his sister over some time, and he was at that moment in a lot of trouble over a totally different controversy with the White House travel office. And there's no evidence of anything here other than that Vince was a serial political operator who was involved in some shady shit and got disgraced and who killed himself because he didn't want to live with the after effects. Right. And you know that also the shit he was in to the extent that it was shady is very common among people who are Arkansas politicos. Right. But Vince's death has become a cornerstone of some of the more unhinged parts of the anti Clinton movement. You'll hear allegations that, like he was either murdered by the Clintons or that he killed himself because of the blood scandal. Right. The Clintons had him shot in order to cover this blood scandal up. And again, it wasn't covered up. There's a documentary on it. People didn't care enough, but it wasn't, you know, it got out. And the reality is that the blood scandal didn't have an impact on Bill and Hillary's lives or political careers, not in a real massive way. And I can in fact believe that people as connected as they are, you know, have contacts in the entertainment industry. But I also, I just don't see the evidence that this destroyed them or that this was that dangerous to them. In fact, in 1992, Peter Longstaff, who tested positive for HIV back in 1995, after receiving blood from US donors tested positive for hepatitis C. And this was the same year that Clinton ran for presidential election. The Arkansas Times writes, quote, his former chief of staff, Betsy Wright sent a memo titled Prison positives. That memo mentioned four points, including education into prison by Bill Clinton. But the first point Wright listed was run cheapest system in the country. And so you kind of get even in 92. You know, the thing that like the scandal here is not on their front burner. Their front burner still for him in 92 after it's very clear how bad a lot of this is. Was like, no, the prison system was cheap. Let's throw that in a bullet point list. You know, it's a thing to run on, Right.

[Ben Bolin]

Keeping costs down.

[Robert Evans]

Keeping costs down is the idea. Yeah. Fairly normal evil. Fairly normal politics evil as opposed to like incredibly shady conspiracy evil. That's my opinion on the matter.

[Ben Bolin]

Well, I hear you there too, because there's this, this devilishly tempting draw, right, to find a political force you disagree with or you already don't care for and then assign them super villainous agency where the result is without being too controversial. The result is you ultimately have to ask yourself, is there any, any such thing as a completely clean potus? Right? And what does it take to play that game?

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, yeah. And also just like, perhaps if we keep. If the focus of all of these problems is like, ah, I can use this huge systemic issue that a lot of people deserve to go down for to attack this one guy. That's all I'm really interested in. I'm not interested in better treatment, treatment for prisoners. I'm not interested in a safer blood treatment system. Right. And likewise, if you're. And to the same extent that like Bill's only interest in what happened in the prison system during his time was I need a bullet point of things that I can run on, right? And like, yeah, I put some educational programs in. System was the cheapest, you know, that it's ever been. Bada bing, bada boom. I'm done thinking about the prisons in the state I run. You know, like, all of these are parts of the. Why all of this kind of shit will keep happening.

[Ben Bolin]

Yes. And that is, I think, one of our. Look, I know it's your show, but I think that's one of the key takeaways is it is tempting again to look at the headline to put a face on a problem right now. I'm mad insert individual here. The real problems are systemic and have always been and shall always be so. And with that I gotta tell you, it's a question that's been on my mind for both of these episodes. Robert, do you want to, like, buy some blood?

[Robert Evans]

Yes. Oh, my God, yes. Do you? I want to make sure. Will I have any idea where the blood comes from or what is in it?

[Ben Bolin]

Even better, bro. You're not buying it. We do a subscription service.

[Robert Evans]

Oh, shit.

[Ben Bolin]

So you're rotting it.

[Robert Evans]

Awesome.

[Ben Bolin]

You know, well, we say leasing.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, yeah, I'll lease the blood. I'll give some back. Yeah, perfect. You know, we gotta have blood. Leasing has to be on the organ lease. I mean, we're all going to be doing our best for the next several decades to, like, recreate some of, like, the silliest movies from the 1990s. I think repo Man's next.

[Ben Bolin]

Oh, my gosh. I'm so excited. You have to come back on stuff that once you. Or you've never been on that one. Come back on Ridiculous History. There you go. While we can still call it history, right?

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. I feel like the Rent of Blood is just like a sequel to Jordan Peele's Get Out. Yeah.

[Ben Bolin]

Oh, yeah. Jordan got us again. Yeah. Oh, my gosh.

[Robert Evans]

Anyway, rinse some blood. Have fun. I don't know why I ended on that mark. What do you. I mean, you kind of did a plug. Yeah. You could do another, please.

[Ben Bolin]

Oh, oh, sure. Other than Rent of Blood, which is clearly our main focus for both of these episodes, please check out stuff that it wants you to know which applies critical thinking to allegations of conspiracy. Please check out Ridiculous History, where you can hear our own friend Robert Evans. Robert Paws Evans. You like that? Just check it. Social Security number.

[Robert Evans]

Beep beep.

[Ben Bolin]

On the. On the show a couple of times. Most importantly. Most importantly, I think you guys plug something. I'm just throwing the ball over the court here.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Ben Bolin]

Just doing like a halftime. Go for it. You know what I mean?

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Ben Bolin]

Half court.

[Robert Evans]

Find the documentary Factor 8 so I can watch it. That's what I'm gonna plug. Somebody's gotta have it out there.

[Ben Bolin]

Shout out to Kelly Duda, by the way, for standing in Italian court. That's a true story.

[Robert Evans]

Good work. Anyway, that's the episode. Bye. Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, Visit our website, coolzone media.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the Bastards is Now available on YouTube. New episodes every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to our channel, YouTube.com behindthebastards do.

[Damien Hirst]

You remember what you said the first night I came over here?

[Ben Bolin]

Ow. Go slower.

[Damien Hirst]

From Blumhouse TV, iHeart podcasts and Ember 20 comes an all new fictional comedy podcast series. Join the flighty Damien Hirst as he unravels the mystery of his vanished boyfriend. I've been spending all my time looking for answers about what happened to Santi and what's the way to find a missing person. Sleep with everyone he knew, obviously. Listen to the hookup on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Bob Pittman]

Hi, I'm Bob Pippman, chairman and CEO of iHeartMedia. I'm excited to introduce a brand new season of my podcast Math and Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing. I'm having conversations with some folks across a wide range of industries to hear how they reach the top of their fields and the lessons they learned along the way that everyone can use. I'll be joined by innovative leaders like chairman and CEO of Elf Beauty Tarang Amin, legendary singer, songwriter and philanthropist Jewel.

[Robert Evans]

Being a rock star is very fun, but helping people is way more fun.

[Bob Pittman]

And Damian Maldonado, CEO of American Financing.

[Ben Bolin]

I figured out the formula. I just have to work hard then that's magic.

[Bob Pittman]

Join me as we uncover cover innovations in data and analytics, the math and the ever important creative spark, the magic. Listen to math and magic on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Mary Kay McBrayer]

I'm Mary Kay McBrayer, host of the podcast the Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told. This season explores women from the 19th century to now. Women who were murderers and scammers, but also women who were photojournalists, lawyers, writers and more. This podcast tells more than just the brutal, gory details of horrific acts. I delve into the good, the bad, the difficult, and all the nuance I can find because these are the stories that we need to know to understand the intersection of society, justice and the fascinating workings of the human psyche. Join me every week as I tell some of the most enthralling true crime stor stories about women who are not just victims, but heroes or villains, or often somewhere in between. Listen to the greatest true crime stories ever told on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Harvey Guillen]

From the producers who brought you Princess of South beach comes a new podcast, the Setup. The Setup Setup follows a lonely museum curator, but when the perfect man walks into his life.

[Ben Bolin]

Well, I guess I'm saying I like you, you like me.

[Harvey Guillen]

He actually is too good to be true.

[Ben Bolin]

This is a con. I'm conning you to get the Dalama painting. We could do this together.

[Harvey Guillen]

Listen to the setup on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.