Part Two: Tony Alamo: The Worst Preacher

Summary

Behind the Bastards: Part Two – Tony Alamo: The Worst Preacher

Released February 20, 2025 by Cool Zone Media and iHeartPodcasts

In the chilling second installment of Behind the Bastards, host Robert Evans delves deep into the dark and disturbing life of Tony Alamo, a preacher whose name has become synonymous with manipulation, abuse, and outright malfeasance. Together with co-host Samantha McVeigh, Evans unravels the intricate web of Alamo's cult, his heinous crimes, and the shocking ways he maintained his influence despite mounting evidence against him.

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1. Introduction to Tony Alamo’s Reign

The episode opens with Evans and McVeigh setting the stage for Tony Alamo's story, a man whose fascination lies not just in his religious proclamations but in the sinister activities that underpinned his ministry.

Robert Evans [00:42]: "...not in the ways that matter, maybe, but, like, technically, you know."

2. The Death of Susan Alamo and Cult Practices

A pivotal moment in Alamo’s life was the death of his wife, Susan. Instead of allowing her to rest, Alamo orchestrated a macabre ritual to keep her "alive" within the cult’s premises.

Samantha McVeigh [04:21]: "Tell me she's in that white suit, though. Like, is she at least in that suit?"

Despite Susan's death, followers were forced to engage in relentless prayers for her resurrection, creating an environment of psychological torment.

Robert Evans [05:00]: "She’s exerting some control to limit his behavior. Right. And once she is gone, there is no one left to keep this man in check."

3. Exploitation and Abuse Within the Cult

Alamo's control over his followers extended beyond mere religious indoctrination. He systematically exploited children within the cult, both sexually and through forced labor.

Samantha McVeigh [07:44]: "So were they not cuddling enough? Is that."

The children were coerced into intimate and abusive situations, with lasting psychological scars that echoed long after their time in the cult.

4. The Rise of Alamo’s Clothing Empire

Amidst the turmoil, Alamo launched a clothing brand that would paradoxically gain popularity among celebrities, masking the underlying atrocities.

Robert Evans [11:09]: "He does high fashion, too. It's extremely successful."

Renowned figures such as Michael Jackson and Mr. T donned Alamo’s bedazzled denim jackets, further legitimizing his brand and expanding his reach.

Robert Evans [13:10]: "Michael Jackson wears a Tony Alamo jacket on the cover of ‘Bad’."

5. Legal Battles and Labor Exploitation

Alamo's success was built on the backs of exploited laborers, primarily children who worked tirelessly to produce his elaborate designs. This eventually attracted legal scrutiny.

Robert Evans [35:04]: "From 1970 to 1976, the foundation's reported income went from $46,000 a year to $1.3 million a year."

Despite a Supreme Court ruling mandating fair wages, Alamo ingeniously circumvented regulations by having followers donate their earnings back to the church, perpetuating the cycle of abuse.

Robert Evans [36:53]: "He would give everyone their paychecks, and then they would have to hand their paychecks back as donations to the church."

6. Relationship with Other Cult Leaders

Alamo's connections extended to other notorious figures, most notably David Koresh, leader of the Branch Davidians. Their camaraderie highlighted a network of manipulative leaders who shared similar ideologies and practices.

Samantha McVeigh [33:13]: "David Koresh is a friend of his."

7. Arrest, Trial, and Conviction

Alamo's tumultuous relationship with the law culminated in his arrest in 2008. Charged with numerous crimes, including child abuse and trafficking, he faced a trial that revealed the depths of his depravity.

Robert Evans [62:05]: "He was convicted in 2009 of taking girls across state lines for the purpose of sex. He was sentenced to the maximum 175 years in prison."

However, his sentence was significantly reduced, and Alamo served only a fraction of his time before dying in custody in 2017.

8. The Aftermath and Legacy

Even as Alamo was on the run and later imprisoned, his clothing empire thrived. High-profile endorsements continued unabated, raising unsettling questions about accountability and awareness among consumers.

Robert Evans [51:11]: "Bradley told reporters, 'Alamo is known for his sequin jackets.'"

This lingering presence of his brand, despite his criminal background, underscores a broader societal failure to recognize and condemn such exploitation.

9. Conclusion: A Reflection on Power and Corruption

Evans and McVeigh conclude by reflecting on the systemic issues that allowed Tony Alamo to maintain his power and continue his abuses for decades. They critique the complicity of communities, law enforcement, and consumers in perpetuating his legacy.

Samantha McVeigh [65:36]: "He left a majority of his adulthood in luxury and like, infamy, people respected his stuff. That's really disgusting."

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Notable Quotes:

• Robert Evans [03:35]: “Everyone wants it. No matter what they think I am, no matter what the superstars are gonna want my jackets.”

• Samantha McVeigh [22:03]: “And I'm sure Arkansas is probably one of those places. Sorry, I don't know.”

• Robert Evans [29:34]: "These people are predators, and predators are good at taking advantage of power dynamics."

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Key Takeaways:

• Tony Alamo's Dual Facade: Alamo expertly masked his abusive and criminal activities behind a veneer of religious leadership and successful entrepreneurship.

• Systemic Failures: The case highlights significant lapses in legal oversight, community vigilance, and consumer responsibility.

• Enduring Impact: The legacy of Alamo's actions continues to affect survivors and raises critical questions about the protection of vulnerable individuals within cult environments.

Final Thoughts:

Behind the Bastards masterfully dissects the life of Tony Alamo, exposing the complex interplay between charisma, manipulation, and unbridled power. Through detailed storytelling and compelling interviews, Evans and McVeigh shed light on one of history's most unsettling figures, urging listeners to remain vigilant against such malevolent forces.

Transcript

[Robert Evans]

Media. Oh. Welcome back to behind the Bastards. We're all doing just so good. Just so good. Talking about Jesus grifters and their Jesus grifting with one of my very favorite people and guests, the great Samantha McVeigh. Samantha, how are you doing?

[Samantha McVeigh]

I am here. You're here. Alive.

[Robert Evans]

Yes. We've just been talking about how tired and slightly broken we all are already this year. Yeah.

[Samantha McVeigh]

But, hey, we exist.

[Robert Evans]

We're still alive. Technically, you know, not in the ways that matter, maybe, but, like, technically, you know. Yes. Yeah, just like. Well, actually, not at all like Susan Alamo, because she's just dead as hell. She is super fucking dead.

[Samantha McVeigh]

You told me a few times that she is good and dead.

[Robert Evans]

She is. She is real dead. Aw, you are. I don't know if you're ready for the amount of dead. This lady is just the deadest. Samantha, are you ready to get back into it?

[Samantha McVeigh]

Let's go.

[Maria Tremarki]

Welcome to the Criminalia Podcast. I'm Maria Tremorki.

[Holly Fry]

And I'm Holly Fry. Together, we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime.

[Maria Tremarki]

Each season, we explore a new theme, from poisoners to art thieves.

[Holly Fry]

We uncover the secrets of history's most interesting figures, from legal injustices to body snatching.

[Maria Tremarki]

And tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in cocktails and mocktails inspired by each story.

[Holly Fry]

Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Nancy Grace]

Where is missing mom of Florence?

[Samantha McVeigh]

This week on Crime Stories, we're joined.

[Robert Evans]

By Payne Lindsay from Up and V Vanished podcast. She just fell off the map completely.

[Nancy Grace]

Looking at her. It would be uncommon for Florence to go hiking or camping without her children, leaving them with no idea where their mother was.

[Robert Evans]

Her personal items found outside of this man's tent. What the hell happened?

[Nancy Grace]

Listen to crime Stories with Nancy grace on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Robert Evans]

It was big news. I mean, white girl gets murdered, found in a cemetery. Big, big news.

[Payne Lindsay]

A long investigation stalls until someone changes their story.

[Samantha McVeigh]

I, like, saw a whole thing that happened.

[Payne Lindsay]

An arrest, trial and conviction soon follow.

[Holly Fry]

He did not kill her.

[Payne Lindsay]

There's no way is the real killer rightly behind bars or still walking free. Did you kill her? Listen to the real Killer, Season 3 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dennis Rader]

Monster BTK concludes, a judge asked Dennis.

[Robert Evans]

Rader to take him through all the killings in the courtroom live on tv.

[Samantha McVeigh]

He was not expecting that he's exposed and known for what he is.

[Dennis Rader]

To hear the final four episodes early and ad free, subscribe to I Heart True Crime. Plus the latest episodes will become available for free every Monday. Monster BTK Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Robert Evans]

So you're a cult leader and your wife, the lamb of God, has died, even though you both told everyone on your TV show God would protect her from that sort of pedestrian end, because the world can't end unless you're both alive. Right. So what do you. When she passes on, right?

[Samantha McVeigh]

Yeah. You put sunglasses on her. To put sunglasses on her, baby.

[Robert Evans]

You did guess Weekend at Bernie's, and that's what they do. You are correct. Because basically what they do is he has her embalmed, he brings her corpse home, and he, like. Yeah, yeah, he puts it on a table, and he's going to have his followers pray over it for days on end. Right? That's the plan here.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Tell me she's in that white suit, though. Like, is she at least in that suit?

[Robert Evans]

No, she's in her wedding dress. Does that make it worse? Is that creepier or less creepy?

[Samantha McVeigh]

That's just setting up for a haunting, like being cursed and unhaunted.

[Robert Evans]

Well, and the way it's described to me is he had. She ordered them to dress her corpse in its wedding dress. So I don't think she came in that dress. He just makes his followers put her in it. Not great.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Did he, like, remarry her? Like, renew the vowels here, too? I mean, there's a lot that I'm.

[Robert Evans]

I think he was waiting for her to be resurrected to do that, right? Yeah.

[Samantha McVeigh]

He's gonna marry her for the fifth time, right?

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. The fourth or fifth time. Yeah. Now, I will admit that the relationship dynamics of the Alamos are a little bit murky to me, but my interpretation is that while she was alive, Susan did a lot of work to keep Tony on something that resembled an keel. He's still doing some sex crimes. Right. But a lot less than he will be once she dies. Because she is. She's exerting some control to limit his behavior. Right. And once she is gone, there is no one left to keep this man in check. And he loses his fucking mind. Like, he is. He goes from. Well, not from zero. He's like. He's at, like, 55, but he goes up to, like, 120 very quickly.

[Samantha McVeigh]

I feel like he's just waiting for his moment, though. Is it one of those things like. Yeah, Now I'm doing this. This is it. This is my time. And then it just becomes trauma.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, yeah. For a lot of people. And it's going to start with some dead body related trauma because. Yeah, yeah, it's gross. So he has Susan's body taken to the cult's dining room and his followers are ordered to take shifts praying for her resurrection so that there's people praying for her to be resurrected 24 hours a day. Cult funds are used to engage in nearby florists to deliver flowers every. Probably to deal with the smell. Right.

[Samantha McVeigh]

I was gonna ask about that, but, you know.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, yeah. It's not great, Sam. It's not great. One Colton, remember, later recalled to a reporter. I believed 100% that she was going to rise from the dead. On their local access TV show, Tony gave daily sermons promising his wife would be reborn any day now. It became a joke for local radio DJs who reported on this while repeatedly playing Wake Up, Little Susie. That's some good dj. That's some good local radio. DJ Shade.

[Samantha McVeigh]

I mean, yeah, he wrote himself.

[Robert Evans]

No, you can just see how you'd cut this together, though, in like the HBO version of this story. You know, do a little montage or something. Unfortunately, it also gets very creepy very fast because one thing that Tony demands is he wants the children in the cult. He makes them cuddle with Susan's body at night. Yeah, no, this is. This is bad. What, again? He's.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Those kids became serial killers.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, those kids went through it, we'll say that much. Right. One of them, Elijah Frankoweek, later said she smelled, she was cold and really, really hard. She was dead. Which I feel like we didn't need at the end there. But, yeah, it's just good to reinforce that to yourself when you've been told for six months that she's alive.

[Samantha McVeigh]

So was this during an interview? Like.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, years later.

[Samantha McVeigh]

So they just found him. He's like, you slept with a dead body. Tell us about that experience. You grew up in the school also, to those people. I'm so sorry.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, no, yeah. I think that that's basically what it was is like. Cause eventually there are court cases and eventually there's prosecution, and a lot of these kids get out and then go talk to the media about, like. Cause these are the folks who were not. They were true believers in that. They were kids raised in this cult. But they also. They're not converts. Right. If you grow up, you know, in a different religion somewhere and you convert to something like this, you tend to stick with it for a long time. Whereas a lot of these kids raised in this, like, as soon as they can, like, I'm getting the fuck out of this place. The fuck is wrong with these people? And my parents. Jesus. Yeah. So this goes on, this whole corpse thing goes on for six months.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Oh, I was waiting for six days.

[Robert Evans]

Six months. No, no, no. Like a. Like a wildly long time.

[Samantha McVeigh]

And the body was okay?

[Robert Evans]

No, no, no. It's not okay. It's very, very gross. Greta Allendorf writes that every day Susan remained dead, the children were beaten. So it's even worse than just the things about this that are obviously gross because the kids are being physically punished for not bringing this woman back from the dead. Good cult stuff. Yeah.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Were they not cuddling enough? Is that.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. Were they not cuddling the dead lady enough? I don't know.

[Samantha McVeigh]

You'd have to ask what's supposed to happen.

[Robert Evans]

Well, she was supposed to come back.

[Samantha McVeigh]

To Tony, like, by the kids, like, laying on her.

[Robert Evans]

Oh, I think something like that. I think something like that.

[Samantha McVeigh]

This is where I need adult supervision. What the hell?

[Robert Evans]

What the fuck? Right? This is. We are now in rarefied cult air. We do a lot of cults, but this is some of the cultiest cult stuff we've ever culted on this podcast. Fascinating stuff. Incredible work, Tony. Eventually, and this is, you know, you gotta give him some credit for personal growth. He comes to accept that his wife is dead. Right. You know, Ruth. Yeah, I was joking. That's not correct. Okay, I mean, I guess it is, but you don't have to give him credit for.

[Samantha McVeigh]

It's conceding. It's almost just conceding.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, it's conceding. So he has his followers build an elaborate mausoleum for her, which included a grave for him. So apparently, at this point, he came to accept his own mortality. Now that Susan was gone, he began to adapt other parts of his life to this new reality, which ended with him launching a new and shockingly successful business for the ministry. You're not ready for where this head, Samantha. I was not ready for where this heads. This is a unique cult business, right? We talk about cult businesses a lot on this show. Restaurants are common, Right? Bands are weirdly common. You know, the Mansons tried to do that, right? You get. I mean, Tony Alamo does kind of that version of things. Fucking David Koresh was a musician, you know, Right. What's weird is, like, launching through your cult, an incredibly popular fashion brand that is beloved by the most famous people on earth, which is what Tony does next. Yeah, yeah. Shocking stuff.

[Samantha McVeigh]

He launches a clothing brand. Is that.

[Robert Evans]

He does. He does high fashion, too. It's extremely successful. How successful we're getting today?

[Samantha McVeigh]

Hollister, isn't it?

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, it's Hollister. This is where Hollister comes from. Tony Alamo invented Hollister. No. So the answer, because Tony's got to ask himself, hey, as a pedophile cult leader who has just been reminded of his mortality, what's the next thing to do? And the answer, obviously, is force children to labor for free, manufacturing high quality bedazzled denim vests and jackets for celebrities, which is exactly what he does. These have, like, in rhinestones and Swarovski diamonds, like the LA skyline on them or like Nashville or. They are the tackiest fucking jackets that.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Have ever been made. Stonewashed.

[Robert Evans]

Stonewashed. I think some of them are stonewashed. Some of them are clearly like black denim or leather even. They're not just denim, but there's a lot of denim. Yeah. This is. By now we're in the 80s, right?

[Samantha McVeigh]

Like, be dazzled. Bedazzle did their thing.

[Robert Evans]

Yes.

[Samantha McVeigh]

So this makes sense also. It's kind of horrifying.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Who wore this?

[Robert Evans]

Oh, everyone. So he designs each product himself and sells them under the brand name Tony Alamo of Nashville. And despite that name, their big market is in Hollywood, particularly rich and famous people who wanted clothing that delivered a little bit of Southern charm and credibility. Tony Alamo jackets took off initially with the Grand Ole Opry set, but in short order, they become, like, the most desired fashion item in the music industry. According to an article by Lindy Fraser of the Chantel Clear, Alamo said he used children when he realized their hands were the perfect size to embellish the jackets with tiny rhinestones.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Now, why do they all say this?

[Robert Evans]

Given all of that, it might not surprise you to hear that one of the brand's biggest fans was a man famous for being responsible around small children. Have you guessed who it is?

[Samantha McVeigh]

No, I can't.

[Robert Evans]

Michael Jackson. Oh, that's right, baby. And in fact, if you want the most famous touchstone, Michael Jackson wears a Tony Alamo jacket on the COVID of Bad. The Tony Alamo original on the COVID of Bad.

[Samantha McVeigh]

There's so many things to this. Why?

[Robert Evans]

Oh, well, I think there's a couple of reasons why, given some things that we've learned about Michael in the intervening years. But it is when I realized it was that the jacket from Bath was a Tony Alamo or. Blew my fucking mind.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Yeah, that's gonna take me a minute.

[Robert Evans]

That's going to take a second, right?

[Samantha McVeigh]

The fact that that means he had to have sold so many more after the fact.

[Robert Evans]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. These are a massive brand. These are incredibly successful. And, you know, Michael is the most famous person on earth at this point in, like, the fucking mid, early to mid-80s. So he is probably the most famous person to wear a Tony Alamo original. But he's got real competition. And I want to quote from an article on the brand in the LA Times. He makes jackets for all the stars, said Shirley Blenner, a saleswoman at Twist, a boutique on Melrose Avenue, where three Alamo jackets were on sale last week for prices ranging from $360 to $680. Blinner pointed to a display of photographs behind the cash register of Mr. T, Mike Tyson, Hulk Hogan, and Dolly Parton, all wearing what appear to be Alamo design jackets.

[Samantha McVeigh]

I was waiting for her name, but wait, Mr. T to cut off Jean.

[Robert Evans]

Mr. T. Oh. Oh, my God. Samantha. I would not be doing my job as the host of this podcast if I did not show you the picture I have of Mr. T wearing a Tony Alamo original, standing next to Tony Alamo himself. Oh, man. It is. If you're a big Mr. T fan, like, I am. A harsh moment of the soul here. Look at them. Look at the two of them together.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Oh, is that him?

[Robert Evans]

That's him. That's Tony next to Mr. T. He's like, off brand.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Like country musicians. Like, he looks like Haggard. Merle Haggard. Like, what the hell?

[Robert Evans]

If Merle Haggard had let his drinking get even more away from him, right? Like, yeah, if Merle Haggard had been doing his body weight in cocaine. Yeah. So there's this picture. They're both wearing these just, I gotta say, hideous denim jackets. Like, these are Michaels. You know, the jacket from Bad looks good on Michael. You know, like, that's a look.

[Samantha McVeigh]

It's iconic.

[Robert Evans]

I do not understand these denim jackets that Mr. T and Tony are wearing here.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Again, Mr. T, I remember him with a cutoff jean jacket. Like, that's what I'm picturing when you say Mr. T. This one, it's got, like, Americans.

[Holly Fry]

Sounds like a big leap.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Samantha McVeigh]

No, it doesn't sound like a big leap.

[Robert Evans]

It's not a huge leap. Right. And this is Mr. T. Younger, maybe. Certainly worse judgment. Let's all assume that modern Mr. T wouldn't make this same mistake. But, yeah. The picture I've got, which we'll put up, this will probably be the background of one of the parts of this episode but it just says Mr. T. Pictured here with Pastor Tony Alamo. Both are wearing Tony Alamo designer jackets, which are worn by thousands of actors, entertainers, recording artists, sports figures, presidents, politicians, kings, queens, princes, princesses, and others who are able to afford them. I don't know which presidents wore these. I haven't found that information, but I can be very curious. Prince Charles, Queen Elizabeth. Yeah, Queen Elizabeth has one of these things. But Queen Elizabeth had it because she would not buy a jacket if she didn't know child labor had gone into it.

[Samantha McVeigh]

You know, that's the question. How is it marketed? Was it marketed as just a hand sewn with love from this church?

[Robert Evans]

It's marketed with that line. Their little hands can put the rhinestones on best.

[Samantha McVeigh]

This is the only way we could fit the tiny stones on there with.

[Robert Evans]

The tiny ones above the tag. We don't pay the children.

[Samantha McVeigh]

They pay us by.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, they pay us with their labor, you know, for saving the money and.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Cuddling with dead bodies.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, well, and cuddling with dead bodies. Now, in addition to jackets, Alamo's clothing line sold sharkskin boots, leopard skin jackets, and sequined gowns, often including Swarovski crystals and diamonds as accoutrements. Beyond that, his ministry expanded to control a string of gas stations in the area around the towns of Dyer and Alma, Alabama. They ran a hog farm, grocery stores, and a concert venue, as well as a restaurant where a young Bill Clinton once watched Dolly Parton perform. The number of famous people who are just like, bit parts in the fucking Tony Alamo story. Unreal.

[Samantha McVeigh]

So did people not realize it was a cult? They just assumed it was just a foundation in a children's home or like a halfway house type of thing. At this point.

[Robert Evans]

At this point, there are some people who have left. If you really wanted to look, you could find some allegations, Right? But there's no lawsuits yet. No one. Like, there aren't any. Like, major cases about, like, the worst things. There's. This is right around the period of time where there are some lawsuits about them, like not paying workers. But the. The worst stuff hasn't really come out yet. So there. That said, when it does, they keep selling the jacket. So I'm not letting anyone off the hook, the fucking jacket thing, because they keep being a popular product. Even when he's on the run from the FBI as we'll document it. Yes, yes. It's amazing stuff.

[Samantha McVeigh]

And it's still named the Tony.

[Robert Evans]

The Tony Olaj Collection Company. Yeah.

[Samantha McVeigh]

And people are like, yeah, I still need. I really need that name because he's.

[Robert Evans]

Not gonna make it.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Now. I need it because they're not gonna make it anymore. I have to have one. It's a limited edition.

[Robert Evans]

Sam, think about it this way. If Osama bin Laden had. Sohn had, like, been selling JNCOs while he was on the run, I would have wanted a pair of those Jinkos. The bin Laden JNCOs. Oh, my God.

[Samantha McVeigh]

I mean, maybe you could resurrect him from the dead. All you gotta do is cuddle them.

[Robert Evans]

That's right. That's right.

[Samantha McVeigh]

I think we can make this work for you.

[Robert Evans]

I'm gonna have to go to the sea. In his 2005 book, My Life, Clinton described Tony Alamo as Roy Orbison on speed. A description that doesn't make a lot of sense to me because we listen to him and he's not a fast singing or speaking guy. I don't know why he. Yeah, maybe he's a speed, right?

[Samantha McVeigh]

Oh, no. That's what he sounds like.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, that's what he sounds like. And he kind of sounds like a slower Johnny Cash to me, who also sucks at singing anyway. I don't know why Bill describes him this way.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Maybe he'll quote have we heard him preach?

[Robert Evans]

I have heard him preach.

[Samantha McVeigh]

And so he's still that slow.

[Robert Evans]

He's faster, but he's not like. As someone who's watched a lot of, like, preachers who are definitely coke fiends, he's not like, that fast. Right.

[Samantha McVeigh]

You being in the spirit.

[Robert Evans]

And I was gonna say maybe Bill Clinton doesn't know much about speed, but Bill Clinton definitely knew a lot about speed. Young Bill Clinton knew a little bit about speed. I'll tell you that much right now.

[Samantha McVeigh]

He knows a lot of things that.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, he knows a lot of things he shouldn't. So Tony may not have been on speed, but he did demand speed from his laborers, who from early childhood on were dosed with vitamins and massive amounts of caffeine in order to meet tight labor deadlines. While he lounged by the heart shaped pool he and Susan had purchased with his new child brides. We'll get to that. His followers slept in sleeping bags on the floor in crowded meeting rooms. Workers owned $5 a day. Shifts could last as long as 20 hours. I think there were just 12 to 15 on average. But you know, when there's a big. When Mr. T needs a bunch of jackets, you know, you make that shit happen.

[Samantha McVeigh]

You gotta make it happen.

[Robert Evans]

You've gotta make it happen.

[Samantha McVeigh]

She's got a show Coming.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. So within a few years of Susan passing, Tony started seeking companionship. And while Susan had been like 10 years older than him, Chris's experience that Susan's daughter had been an early. Because again, Tony rapes her. Right. And that was when she's like 14 or 15. That was an early warning that Tony's preferences skewed much younger. And he starts taking child brides. I think he starts with 16, 17 year olds but like every year he'll go down a couple of years in terms of like what's acceptable to him. Right. And it's going, it's going to get very young. Right. An article for THV2 News Notes. Quote, in an old radio program, a lama once said that when women start their periods, then they are women. According to God's word, they should be able to be married at 13, 14, 15, and in some cases if they have menstruated already at 12 years old. So like capital P, pedophile, we're talking.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Yeah, for sure. But you know, this does go along the biblical ideals and that's also why a lot of the states in the US have not banned child brides.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Samantha McVeigh]

So. And I'm sure Arkansas is probably one of those places. Sorry, I don't know.

[Robert Evans]

And in fact it's explicitly legal to MARRY, you know, 14 year olds in.

[Samantha McVeigh]

A lot of the United 12, as the mama say. Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

Younger than is allowed anywhere. But. But I don't actually want to be quoted on that because I might be wrong. But you're right. Like there is a biblical basis for what Tony is saying. Right. He's able to cite passages from the Bible in justification of the things he's doing now. I will say by the time he reaches his apex, 12 is going to be old for him. But we're getting there. Samantha. Let's distract ourselves with some ads first though.

[Judy Frazier]

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[Nancy Grace]

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[Judy Frazier]

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Stay informed, keep yourself and your family safe with Crime Alert Hourly Update, the only podcast delivering hourly true crime updates.

[Judy Frazier]

Subscribe now to Crime Alert Hourly Update and never miss a moment of breaking crime news. Listen to Crime Alert. Hourly Update on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dennis Rader]

Monster BTK concludes the plans were made.

[Robert Evans]

Search warrants were drawn in advance. On that day. I remember it was radio silence when the chief came out and said we caught btk. Denial was the first reaction. Now that they got him, how am I going to get my hands on him? A judge asked Dennis Raider to take him through all the killings in the courtroom live on tv.

[Samantha McVeigh]

He was not expecting that. And you see him trying to maintain control. You see his voice change. He's acting like he's bored. He's exposed and known for what he is.

[Dennis Rader]

To Hear the final four episodes early and ad free, subscribe to iHeart True Crime. Plus the latest episodes will become available for free Every Monday. Monster BTK Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

[Maria Tremarki]

Welcome to the Criminalia Podcast. I'm Maria Tremarke.

[Holly Fry]

And I'm Holly Fry. Together we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime.

[Maria Tremarki]

Each season we explore a new theme. Everything from poisoners and pirates to art thieves and snake oil products and those who made and sold them.

[Holly Fry]

We uncover the stories and secrets of some of history's most compelling criminal figures, including a man who built a submarine as a getaway vehicle. Yep, that's a fact.

[Maria Tremarki]

We also look at what kinds of societal forces were at play at the time of the crime, from legal injustices to the ethics of body snatching, to see what, if anything, might look different through today's perspective.

[Holly Fry]

And be sure to tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in custom made cocktails and mocktails inspired by the stories. There's one for every story we tell.

[Maria Tremarki]

Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Robert Evans]

It was big news. I mean, white girl gets murdered, found in a cemetery. Big, big news.

[Payne Lindsay]

When a young woman is murdered, a desperate search for answers takes investigators to some unexpected places. He believed it could be part of a satanic cult.

[Robert Evans]

I think there were many individuals present. I don't know who pulled the trigger.

[Payne Lindsay]

A long investigation stalls until someone changes their story.

[Samantha McVeigh]

I like saw whole thing that happened.

[Payne Lindsay]

An arrest, trial and conviction soon follow.

[Robert Evans]

You just saw his body just kind of collapsing.

[Payne Lindsay]

Two decades later, a new team of lawyers says their client is innocent.

[Holly Fry]

He did not kill her.

[Payne Lindsay]

There's no way is the real killer rightly behind bars or still walking free. Are you capable of murder?

[Robert Evans]

I definitely am not.

[Payne Lindsay]

Did you kill her? Listen to the real Killer Season 3 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Robert Evans]

We're back. How you doing?

[Samantha McVeigh]

I'm just. Honestly, the problem I have is knowing that this man, if he was under trial now guarantee he'd be fine. Yeah, oh yeah, he would be so fine. Like he would probably be in office and or an advisor at this point. Like that's just the level if he has gone that well.

[Robert Evans]

Oh yeah, I think he could have people marching in the streets with guns protecting him for sure. I mean he does get that. It's just that it kind of pisses off everyone around him. Cause America's in a little bit of a different place at this time. So as Tony gets older, his beliefs on the proper age to marry a girl get looser. He moves the age limit down to 10, arguing that as long as a girl had started to menstruate, the men around her didn't just have the right, but a duty to marry her off. Quote. And again, when you say there's a biblical basis, here's his argument. God impregnated Mary when she was about 11 years old. So the government idiots the people that don't know the Bible. What you're going to have to do is get ahold of God now you're gonna have to and cuff him and send him to prisontory for statutory rape. And yeah, if God fucked an 11 year old. Yeah, he's. Thousands speak of a power imbalance. He's also God.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Right, Right. Well, I mean that's the point.

[Robert Evans]

There's a lot of debate as to the ages and stuff here.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Yeah, but I mean like in general, like he's also a God, obviously. Maybe he didn't resurrect his wife, but that was for a plan to impregnate adolescence.

[Robert Evans]

And it's this whole thing like I can remember because I grew up, you know, in and around evangelicals in the post 911 period, constantly hearing about how the fundamental evil of Islam was that it allowed 14 Muhammad married like a 14 year old girl, a 12 year old girl or something like that. You know, that's okay in this religion. That's part of like the reason why it's. But like you can look at any religious text from that period and find a justification for fucking a little kid. Right, right. That's just the reality in part because of the time period in which those things were written. Ultimately my stance is that outside of specifics of the faith that they claim to be People who want to fuck kids find a reason to justify fucking kids.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Right. And people who want to put those people on pedestals will justify why this is.

[Robert Evans]

Okay, sure. Exactly.

[Samantha McVeigh]

For that group of people. For that group of people. I mean, Matt Gaetz, Matt, he's fine. He's great.

[Robert Evans]

Exactly. Matt Gates. We call this the Matt Gaetz coda. Right. So a write up for the SPLC continues. It's a theme that Alamo keeps coming back to in a radio show. Just this February 24th, the preacher cited that the. The alleged promiscuity of first graders as grounds for marrying them before the illegal age of consent. I found out from people's parents that their daughter having started having sex when she was six years old and had sex every day of her life. He said at one point. So right there, by the time she's 15 years old, she's had sex thousands of times. I mean, this is just reality, the alternate reality. You have to, like, create for yourself to exist within these things. And people have to listen to him talk about, like 6 year olds having sex thousands of times and be like, yeah, that's how. That's the. That's the way things work. That's what kids do. Amen. I've never seen a child, but this seems accurate.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Like, oh, my God.

[Robert Evans]

I think some of it is. Literally, a lot of these people will justify. You see like a kid, like, look at another kid of the opposite sex and you're like, well, that's basically sex. Right? Right. I don't know. I don't know fully. Like, there's a lot to dig into here. But, like, this is some of the most vile pedophile justification stuff I've ever heard. And this is not like a subject we cover, you know, sparingly on this show because it turns out that, like, wherever you find the worst people in a society, you'll find a lot of them finding reasons to justify having sex with little kids. Just a thing that keeps happening. It happens with Christians. It happens on the left. It happens in every religion and every political movement. It happens all the time with conservative Christians. It's just a. It's. These people are predators, and predators are good at taking advantage of power dynamics. Tony's a predator who wound up at the head of a cult, and he understands how to manipulate people. And as time goes on and he's kind of freed further from any influence of his dead wife, he gets more and more extreme with the things he's willing to justify to his followers, and he keeps getting away with it. So he keeps going further.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Right. My question, though, is that the wife wasn't necessarily trying to protect the children as much as she was jealous of the children, which is what happened with her daughter. Yeah. She was, like, upset with the daughter for seducing her husband at such a young age.

[Robert Evans]

I'm not trying to give her moral credit.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Right. But this is. That conversation is that no one really takes responsibility because they're just like, well, he's the one bad character. We didn't know better. But the thing is. Yeah, you did.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Yeah, you did. You're like the parent or the people who are like, watch these children grow up or haven't grown up. And then that's like, oh, every. Everything about this and the fact that this continues to be a justifiable conversation, as if eventually someone will believe me and then agree with me. Yeah, it works. They do.

[Robert Evans]

Yep, yep. Yeah. And it works for him for way too long. In 1993, he releases a tract titled the polygamists, where he justifies his behavior by arguing the holy scriptures proclaim polygamy to be righteous. And he's doing a lot of what, like the. There's a chunk of the Mormons, the FLDS church, very similar justifications for polygamy and for kids, you know, that you find between the two of them very similar to the kind of stuff David Koresh is saying. Right.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Because his.

[Robert Evans]

David Koresh is a friend of his. Right, of course. Of course. Of course. These guys get along.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Wait, I would think that because he would be older than David Koresh. Right? I'm trying to. Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

Oh, yeah. I think he is a bit.

[Samantha McVeigh]

He's definitely mentoring this dude at this point.

[Robert Evans]

I think there's a bit of that going on. I don't know how Koresh. Because obviously Koresh is no longer able to give interviews. So I'm not sure 100% how David would have described what their relationship was. But we'll talk about a little later how Tony describes it. It in a broadcast for his TV network talking about polygamy. Tony expounded. They're condemning polygamy when it's never condemned. God never says, no polygamist shall enter the kingdom of heaven. But these bastards, these homosexual Vaticanites, they condone homosexuals and they condemn marriage and a man that would take care of his. They say you're a polygamist, that I married too many wives. Well, find out. Prove it. And even if I was, there's no law in the Bible against it. Now, as you may be noticing here, Tony saved Much of his hatred for gay people and the Catholic church, who he thought were the same thing and were responsible for both nazism, communism and pornography. All of it could be traced back to the Vaticans. And while Tony didn't get along with the Catholics, he could be open minded when it came to other cult leaders. He was friends particularly with David Koresh. Tony told an interviewer that David was, quote, like a brother to me. Now, I don't know. Does that mean they were really super friend? Did he just see some value? Cause these guys are preaching similar things vis a vision. Pedophilia and polygamy. I don't know. It's hard to say precisely how much money came into the cult because Tony was not a fan of paying taxes. I know you're gonna be shocked by that, right? The foundation. And again, the church doesn't have to pay taxes. Cause that's how churches work, unfortunately. But like his massively successful business selling denim vests to Mr. T has to pay taxes, does it?

[Samantha McVeigh]

If it's under, like the actual umbrella of his cult, he still does.

[Robert Evans]

Yes. Yes. Because it's not. I mean, like, it's an actual, like, business. You know, like Tony's arguing it shouldn't have to, but the IRS will feel differently. We know that from 1970 to 1976, the foundation's reported income went from $46,000 a year to $1.3 million a year. And again, this is 1970s money and is obvious. Underreporting the Colts, numerous businesses and fleet of Cadillacs would have required much more than this in income to maintain. What got Tony in TR for the first time was the fair labor standards act. No matter how many fire and brimstone speeches about how Tony gave, some number of his followers left each year. And as they re entered the real world, some of them caught on to the fact that Tony had actually broken the law by not paying them. Some of these people wound up talking to the government. And in 1976, the Department of labor sued the foundation for exploiting workers. It alleged that they'd been made to work 12 to 15 hours a day, six to seven days a week without salary. Now, now that starts in 76. But the case takes a decade to wind to conclusion. Right. This is not a fast moving case. And it reaches the supreme court. The supreme court hears this case and rules 9 to 0 that workers, even in a cult, are entitled to minimum wage and overtime benefits. Which you would think, oh, good, Tony's gonna have to pay everybody now. He does not. He finds workarounds he delays payments as long as possible, and he orchestrates ways to recoup the money. Now that he was paying workers a legal salary. What he would do is every couple of weeks, he would give everyone their paychecks, and then they would have a big to do of everyone handing their paychecks back as donations to the church. Right.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Tithing.

[Robert Evans]

Right.

[Samantha McVeigh]

That's what I would assume.

[Robert Evans]

Exactly 100% tithes. Still, the case had been as high profile as cases get, which drew the attention of federal law enforcement. So at this point, Tony has gotten sued, he's lost his case. It takes 10 years for him to lose his case. But nothing really changes about the way the cult actually operates its business. In the early 1990s, Tony and the Tony and Susie Alamo Susan Alamo foundation embarks on a bold new scam, One that was surprisingly petty given the other businesses operated by the cult. But it gives you the level of contempt that they have, but both for, like, Christian charity and for the law. And I want to read a quote from an article by NBC News. Peter N. Georgiades of Pittsburgh, lawyer who sued Alamo on behalf of ex followers in the 90s, said ministry workers accepted donations of food near its expiration dates, wiped off the dates, and resold the items to grocers. It's plain, flat out fraud, the lawyer said. Mary Coker, who helped ex followers contact federal agents, said that the ministry has been selling outdated government donated food since it moved to phuc in the 1980s. So part one of their businesses is taking food donations and then operating a business to sell to grocery stores expired foods that had been donated for free.

[Samantha McVeigh]

I'm not gonna lie. That's a hustle.

[Robert Evans]

That's a hustle. Hustle.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Come on.

[Robert Evans]

These people, you know, he's got a lot of minds working for him. There's a lot of dudes whose only thought every day is, how can we make more money for Tony Alamo? And they keep coming up with ways, you know, that is.

[Samantha McVeigh]

I would have never thought of that.

[Robert Evans]

There's a reason why I can't believe grocery stores. You're not a monster.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Well, yeah, no, but like, grocery stores, actually buying from them, that's. I guess it's different times. It's different times.

[Robert Evans]

It definitely was amazing. In 1991, the feds carried out a raid on Alamo's HQ in Georgia Ridge. He had enough warning that he was able to flee ahead of the authorities, along with most of his valuable property. The cops who raided his place found piles of Bibles, 82 pews, 1500 Alamo jackets, photos of Tony with Larry Hackman, and dozens of mirrors. But they did not find Susan's body. That's. The mausoleum had been smashed open.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Wait, so, wait, her body's missing now?

[Robert Evans]

Oh, yeah. Yeah, missing again.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Wait, what? What, are we trying to resurrect our 2.0? Is this, like.

[Robert Evans]

No.

[Samantha McVeigh]

What's happening?

[Robert Evans]

It's so much pettier than that. So, Chris, Susan's daughter, despite how much her mom had abused her, still loved her mom and wanted to give her a proper burial. And Tony hates this girl, so once she sues him, being like, you have to give me my mom's body, he has his followers steal it away and store the corpse in a storage unit to hide her. It would take, like, seven years for Kris to win the right to have her mom's body returned and reburied. Alama was eventually ordered to pay $100,000 damages, but, like, that's. It's just. He's not even trying to raise her from the dead. He's just trying to, like, keep her from being buried where her daughter can be a part of it. Because he's a real piece of shit. Yeah, very.

[Samantha McVeigh]

For some reason, I feel like she would enjoy. Susan would have enjoyed that. Torturing her daughter after death also. She would approve of that.

[Robert Evans]

Yes.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Yes.

[Robert Evans]

Tony probably was following her wishes. Tony spent the first half of the 1990s on the run from the loss. The FBI put out wanted posters for him which stated, alamo is always accompanied by bodyguards who have access to numerous weapons, to include M14 rifles. He is known to be hostile to law enforcement and is considered armed and dangerous. Now, that's all true. What's wild to me is while he is on the run, his followers keep making jackets and he keeps designing them. He uses a fax machine to send sketches from his hidey holes to different manufacturing facilities.

[Samantha McVeigh]

He gave like, they fought. The parents are making their children still make these jackets. Still the children?

[Robert Evans]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's still primarily the children. Yes. And he keeps giving interviews to journalists about the jackets. He even visits his Hollywood storefront while he's on the run from the FBI. He tells the LA Times, everything I do is a work of art. I do the designs wherever I'm at. And there's this LA Times article that I'm gonna be quoting from is amazing, because it's like he's talking to the people who are running these shops, selling these jackets, being like. But, you know, like, he's on the run for a bunch of Crimes, Right. Like kids have accused him of molesting them. He's on the FBI's most wanted list. Why are you still selling his jackets?

[Samantha McVeigh]

Right.

[Robert Evans]

And that was happening.

[Samantha McVeigh]

What? Oh, my God.

[Robert Evans]

The LA Times reporting indicated that Alamo jackets continue to be manufactured, manufactured in California, New York and primarily Arkansas. No one working at any of these factories received any pay. And apparently nothing meaningful had changed after that 1985 ruling. Quote, One former member who left the Colt last year said working conditions at Alamo clothing shops have changed little since the ruling. The former member, who asked not to be identified, said he has seen young children working in the shops with their parents. Workers were paid only A$5 a week stipend. Stipend plus room and board at an Alamo commune, he said now. The article struck a bemused tone, veering from these store owners and customers, praising the artistry of the jackets. We felt differently about rhinestones back then. To former cult members describing the labor conditions as that of an unpaid sweatshop that primarily employed children. When questioned about this, Tony told a reporter, the clothing is so groovy. Everyone wants it. No matter what they think I am, no matter what the superstars are gonna want my jackets.

[Samantha McVeigh]

First of all, the voice is fantastic. Did he take all like hippie speak in order to like sell this?

[Robert Evans]

After all, he comes out of that world, you know, I think he is. At one point, I think in the late 60s, he probably was trying his hand at being a hippie. You know, he's in LA around that time.

[Samantha McVeigh]

I guess hippie and jean jacket denim, maybe they do go hand in hand. I don't know.

[Robert Evans]

Sure he is. And all this whole cult is shrapnel of the hippie movement, right? The hippie movement doesn't really change anything. A lot of people wind up on the street and mentally damaged in the after shocks of the anti war movement and the summer of Love. And you know, Tony is Tony and his initial cult followers are those people. So, being decent reporters, the LA Times crew reached out to the FBI about the fact that this guy, who's apparently one of their most wanted, seems to still be selling jean jackets in Hollywood. Quote, FBI spokesman Jim Nielsen said the bureau is continuing its search for Alamo, but refused to elaborate on the investigation. Now, if you're thinking, boy, isn't the fact that this serial child molester and child trafficker manufacturing expensive clothing for the most famous people on earth and giving interviews while on the run from the FBI, isn't that a hideous indictment of our federal law enforcement Agency. And my answer would be, oh, man, they were up to so much worse shit than this in the mid-90s, bro. I don't know what to tell you. Oh, fuck.

[Samantha McVeigh]

I'm thinking that's low on the totem pole.

[Robert Evans]

This is actually kind of low.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

Now, some of the money from jacket sales was reinvested into the cult, primarily into the production of vast numbers of flyers complaining that Tony was being wrongfully targeted by the government on behalf of the Vatican. His Christian soldiers, largely followers braced out of his Saugus compound, trawled the streets of Hollywood and West la, putting leaflets on the windshield shields of thousands of cars. From that article, the leaflet's rambling denunciations claim that the District Attorney's office, the Internal Revenue Service and the Department of Labor are linked to a terrorist plot against the Alamo Church led by Pope John Paul ii. The leaflets have become a common sight on Los Angeles streets with titles such as Government Subversion Against Alamo and Tony Alamo. My side of the Story. They have at various times appeared littered along the sidewalk on Broadway in downtown Los Angeles, at a county courthouse in Lancaster, and on the windshields of cars at Dodger Stadium in Los Angeles International Airport. The leaflets bear the same Saugus phone number as glossy brochures used by Alamo Designs to promote the sequin jackets. By dialing the number, callers can learn how to obtain more of Alamo's religious literature or which Los Angeles area stores carry Alamo's jackets. You can get it all. Propaganda or the jacket Michael Jackson wore in Bad. Same guy.

[Samantha McVeigh]

What a deal. What a deal. A good conversation. And jackets. Beaded jackets on the Beaded jackets, yeah.

[Holly Fry]

So many rhinestones.

[Robert Evans]

It's so funny how they would talk about rhinestones. Like serious art. Like, oh, my God, the rhinestones on these are amazing.

[Samantha McVeigh]

These are so good.

[Robert Evans]

What a special period of time that was for America. Speaking of special, our sponsors, all of them beautiful special people, none of them are on the run from the FBI. Hiding in the mountains, you know, that's not any of our sponsors. Except for maybe that food box company that just got caught with child labor stuff. Anyway, whatever. We'll be back.

[Judy Frazier]

Stay on top of Breaking Crime News with Crime Alert hourly update available now.

[Nancy Grace]

I'm Nancy Grace. Our team of reporters and experts is dedicated to bringing you the top crime headlines you need to know. Every hour on the hour, from missing people to trial updates and true crime stories, we bring you the latest real time news and analysis.

[Judy Frazier]

Whether it's the latest developments in a high profile case or urgent alerts about missing persons. Crime Alert Hourly Update delivers the news you need to know as it happens.

[Nancy Grace]

Stay informed. Keep yourself and your family safe with Crime Alert Hourly Update, the only podcast delivering hourly true crime updates.

[Judy Frazier]

Subscribe now to Crime Alert Hourly Update and never miss a moment of breaking crime news. Listen to Crime Alert Hourly Update on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

[Dennis Rader]

Monster BTK concludes the plans were made.

[Robert Evans]

Search warrants were drawn in advance on that day. I remember it was radio silence when the chief came out and said, we've caught btk. Denial was the first reaction. Now that they got him, how am.

[Nancy Grace]

I going to get my hands on him?

[Robert Evans]

A judge asked Dennis Raider to take him through all the killings in the courtroom live on tv.

[Samantha McVeigh]

He was not expecting that. And you see him trying to maintain control. You see his voice change. He's acting like he's bored. He's exposed and known for what he is.

[Dennis Rader]

To hear the final four episodes early and ad free, subscribe to I Heart True Crime plus the latest episodes will become available for free every Monday. Monster BTK Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Maria Tremarki]

Welcome to the Criminalia Podcast. I'm Maria Tremarki.

[Holly Fry]

And I'm Holly Fry. Together we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime.

[Maria Tremarki]

Each season we explore a new theme, everything from poisoners and pirates to art thieves and snake oil products and those who made and sold them.

[Holly Fry]

We uncover the stories and secrets of some of history's most compelling criminal figures, including a man who built a submarine as a getaway vehicle. Yep, that's a fact.

[Maria Tremarki]

We also look at what kinds of societal forces were at play at the time of the crime, from legal injustices to the ethics of body snatching, to see what, what, if anything, might look different through today's perspective.

[Holly Fry]

And be sure to tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in custom made cocktails and mocktails inspired by the stories. There's one for every story we tell.

[Maria Tremarki]

Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Robert Evans]

It was big news. I mean, white girl gets murdered, found in a cemetery. Big, big news.

[Payne Lindsay]

When a young woman is murdered, a desperate search for an takes investigators to some unexpected places. He believed it could be part of a satanic cult.

[Robert Evans]

I think there were many individuals present. I don't know who pulled the trigger.

[Payne Lindsay]

A long investigation stalls until someone changes their Story I like saw whole thing that happened. An arrest, trial and conviction soon follow.

[Robert Evans]

You just saw his body just kind of collapsing.

[Payne Lindsay]

Two decades later, a new team of lawyers says their client is innocent.

[Holly Fry]

He did not kill her.

[Payne Lindsay]

There's no way is the real killer rightly behind bars or still walking free. Are you capable of murder?

[Robert Evans]

I definitely am not.

[Payne Lindsay]

Did you kill her? Listen to the real Killer, Season 3 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Robert Evans]

And we're back. So by this point, there are numerous reports in the media that Tony was molesting children. I hate coming back on a line like that, but this is the story that it is. He argued on his own TV program for polygamy and marriage of children as young as 12. Yet major stores including Macy's and Bullock's continued to sell his jackets until they were literally hounded by the prince. These LA Times reporters even came up with a photo of Tony shaking hands with Los Angeles Mayor Tim Bradley. And the picture was taken while Tony was on the FBI most wanted list.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Wow.

[Robert Evans]

Bradley told report. Bradley's spokesperson told reporters, I guess Alamo is known for his sequin jackets. Something else at this point too. Man, I don't know what very LA Mayor thing to do though. Like look, famous people wear his stuff. I don't care what crimes he's committing.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Right. I mean this is kinda like the Jaws moment of like pretending like no one's dead. Pretend like there's not a giant shark attack. We're just gonna enjoy the summer. Let's just chill.

[Robert Evans]

I can't imagine the mare from Jaws like arm in arm with Tony Alamo. Very easy now. While he evaded law enforcement with almost comical ease, Tony continued to take new bribes. One of the oldest of them was a 17 year old girl named Yale who was married to another man in the cult and gave birth in 1993 while on the run with Tony and his inner circle. As soon as she finished giving birth, Tony kicked her husband out of the cult. Yale had to beg to have him reinstated and Tony told her he would on one condition. She'd have to marry him. From a write up by the splc, Alamo's five wives played with her young daughter in another room as she pondered her fate. It's like having a loaded gun to your head, she says. To now, refusing a lamo meant not only might you get beat half to death, but you'll go to hell on top of it. So pretty bleak, she says. Yes, the thing that you would expect happens it's as awful as you would guess. It took Yale years to accept that what happened was not consensual. But Obviously she was 17 and he was 60 and the leader of her cult. Right. So they're not married long. And during their brief period, because he is free for about a year after marrying her before he finally gets caught. And during that brief period, he marries a nine year old girl and a ten year old girl. Here's how Yale described his grooming practice. Every little girl starting to develop wants to feel beautiful. And he was very good at making them feel that way. He preyed on the fact that we were alienated from our parents. Parents. They worked and worked and some of us hadn't seen our parents in a very long time.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. No, I was.

[Samantha McVeigh]

I mean, to be fair, in these cold situations, it doesn't matter. Usually the parents, whether they're present or not, they're somewhat like complicit. Complicit.

[Robert Evans]

I think a lot of these. Yeah.

[Samantha McVeigh]

But then like separating them makes a lot of sense, which it does happen in a lot of cults.

[Robert Evans]

Yep, yep. It's a pretty. It's pretty standard cult behavior. And it. I mean, it makes sense that that's how Tony works.

[Samantha McVeigh]

So he was okay with other people having multi relationships too. It wasn't just him. Or did he do all the marrying?

[Robert Evans]

Oh, he's doing all the marrying. Yeah. Yeah. Some people are allowed to be married, but as Yale's kid, like you can get forcibly separated by him if he doesn't, if he gets jealous of your relationship. In 1994, the year after their marriage, Tony was finally arrested in. This is not going to surprise anyone. Florida, where he had been living for most of the time he spent on the run under a fake name. He was convicted of tax fraud to the tune of $9 million and sentenced to six years in prison. Again, there was evidence by this point that he was practicing polygamy with children. But a year or so before his arrest In February of 1993, the BATF and the FBI had had a bloody standoff with Tony's friend David Koresh and his cult outside of Waco. The whole thing had ended with several dead agents, many dead cultists, and dozens of dead children. Children. The disaster at Waco, which came right off the heels of the bloody ATF standoff at Ruby Ridge, had galvanized the American religious right against what they saw as federal overreach. The fact that the feds had fucked up hideously and made a very bad situation Even worse made all of this a lot more problematic. And the FBI at all responded by pulling back from going after figures like Alamo. Which is why I suspect no one did the fairly minimal work necessary to charge him over his polygamy and child molestation at this stage. In. In fact, while he is in prison, he is allowed to have visitation rights with his wives, per the splc.

[Samantha McVeigh]

The children?

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Payne Lindsay]

What?

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. Although he was incarcerated during most of their marriage, Alamo kept in touch through regular prison visits, where Yale and other wives present at the time alleged that he would fondle the younger girls as older wives blocked the view of the prison security cameras. He allegedly spoke to the girls in graphic terms about group sex and whips, says Yale, who became terrified of him at the time. Yale says she was still in awe of alamo. She worked 18 hour days transcribing the tapes Alamo would record for his followers, she says, editing out his curse words. I would have killed for him or would have killed my child or anyone for him, even though I hated him. Yale says now I'd become his little demon. Finding sick joy in telling people horrible things on orders from Tom. Tony.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Oh.

[Robert Evans]

Oh boy.

[Samantha McVeigh]

What.

[Robert Evans]

Cult dynamics, like I don't know, 201 there, the whole older wives hiding what's happening, but also the fact that like, why are you prison officials letting children come here?

[Samantha McVeigh]

There's so many questions. I have so many questions.

[Robert Evans]

Like not.

[Samantha McVeigh]

There's already rumors, like they already know there's these rumors, but then they let them in and be like this. Completely normal. Completely normal.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. I mean, a big part of the Tony Alamo story is that our legal system is set up to enable certain kinds of cult leaders, even when they molest children on a grand scale. Because that's a lot easier for all of the people who have the, like these government, often these appointee jobs to just not upset the apple cart and piss off, you know, certain segments of the country by trying to stop the mass rape of children. It's cool. I love it.

[Samantha McVeigh]

The amount of like, first of all, just, just from what I remember, working as a social worker for defects, having a child sex abuse case literally cost a dude $6,000 in probation. Yeah, that was. And that's if we had proof.

[Robert Evans]

Dead to rights. Yeah.

[Samantha McVeigh]

I mean, like had to be forensic proof or the child had to be able to explicitly tell in detail what had happened to them. Like that's the level. Like it. I. You would talk about the fact that it only costs a bit of money if you want to do this, it's disgusting.

[Robert Evans]

In the Venn diagram of guys who would like shoot elected officials if those laws were changed to make the punishments be more substantial. And guys who own kill your local pedophile shirts is just a surface circle, right? The same guys. The same guys, yeah, absolutely. Tony ultimately served four years of this sentence, leaving prison in 1998 and immediately booking it for the town of Fouke, Arkansas. F O U K E. He repeated the same well worn tactics that had helped him build an enviable roll of properties and businesses in two other Arkansas small towns and in Hollywood up to this point. For nearly a decade, Tony enjoyed wealth and stability. The town even honored him with a certificate of appreciation in February 2006 for deeds that he and his church did to aid those in need in our community and for his Christian love and kindness.

[Samantha McVeigh]

And this is why I don't trust Christians.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, I mean this is why I have a lot of trouble trusting anybody who runs a church. I'll say that much, right?

[Samantha McVeigh]

Yeah, I mean I was gonna say a lot of this is hand in hand once again with the current church leaders today.

[Robert Evans]

It is, I will say there's a difference in that. It's these local small town residents who are, I assume also evangelical Christians generally, who are some of the first people to stand up to Tony. Because here's the thing about pedophile cult leaders again, if you give them an inch, they wind up setting up armed guards on public streets, which is what an increasingly paranoid and elderly Tony did later in 2006. By this point, the feds had started investigating him again, this time finally over the child molestation and trafficking. Alamo responded by ordering his armed guards to line the public street approaching his property. It is an unfortunate but undeniable reality that when you give a man a rifle and tell him to patrol the street, regardless of his legal position, he'll start questioning random strangers. This happened and it seriously pissed off residents who complained to the local government. And then the local government did nothing because they were almost certainly being bribed by the cult or were just scared of it. And thus the government took no action until the abuses grew too numerous to ignore. So residents had to take actions into our own, their own hands. One resident, Judy Frazier, a small business owner in town, started looking into the dark and documented history of Alamo Ministries. She starts publishing stuff, she starts organizing the accounts of like former members and she's going to be like one of the most effective, like ground level actors, activists against Tony, ex followers start going to the media with Increased frequency. One of them, a former school teacher, claims Tony ordered her daughter, who suffered from epilepsy, beaten while she was having a seizure because said seizures were caused by the devil. Another, Sue Balsley, told the SPLC that her teenage boy was held in the air by four men and beaten 140 times as punishment for sending a love letter to a female classmate his own age. And it just keeps getting worse from there. There's a. The case of a girl, Cindy Jo Angulo, when she was 15 and married to someone else. Because again, not great dynamics outside of being married to Alamo in this cult. Alamo calls her into his house and makes her his wife in 1995, which is when she finds out that her 11 year old sister had also been made a bride. Nikki Farr told the SPLC report that she had fled alamo's house in 1999 at age 15 after three years of basically showing up for those prison visits and being sexually harassed by Tony. She didn't want to marry him once he got out. And she escaped from the cult by crawling through ditches and over barbed wire after he caught her making an unauthorized phone call and knocked her out. Pretty bad stuff. Yeah, yeah.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Was this a. A documentary at any point? Because some of these stories sound familiar.

[Robert Evans]

Or Ministry of Evil. It might have been a BBC documentary about this.

[Samantha McVeigh]

I may have watched parts of it because some of this sounds especially like the town being like, this is getting weird.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Like finally getting to that point sounded familiar.

[Robert Evans]

We've crossed the line for small town.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Right. Like we would mind our business, but then when you start doing this and like devaluing on the streets.

[Robert Evans]

The girl fleeing barbed wire. Yeah.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Okay.

[Robert Evans]

So from this point on, the dam was broken. Reporting in February of 2007 linked a Lamo to a warehouse of 3,000 stolen mattresses owned by two of his wives. I wouldn't bring this up because, like, mattress theft, not a huge crime. Except these were tempur Pedic mattresses from a lot of 8,000 that had been donated by the company to victims of Hurricane Katrina. Tony's men had wound up stealing them somehow and sold 4,000 of them for half a million dollars. So like you're stealing mattresses for Katrina victims.

[Samantha McVeigh]

That is evil. There's so many levels.

[Robert Evans]

Oh, my God.

[Samantha McVeigh]

But mattress how? Like, I wanna know. This is like a Fast and Furious operation.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, yeah.

[Samantha McVeigh]

In which they're like, there's a package coming, there's a truck coming.

[Robert Evans]

I imagine pretty slow and furious. It's gonna take a lot of trucks to move 8,000 mattresses.

[Samantha McVeigh]

But oh, my God, how?

[Robert Evans]

They didn't have mail order mattress technology like we do today. Thank God. God.

[Samantha McVeigh]

You can't do that with Tempur Pedic.

[Robert Evans]

No, no. You could do it with like those. What were those? The podcaster mattresses.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Now they're at Costco.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, now they're at Costco. Yeah. Casper. You could do it with Casper's. You could get 8,000 of those in a couple of box drops. So state and federal law enforcement raided the Alamo compound in September of 2008, charging him with child abuse, possession of child pornography, sexual abuse, and trafficking. He was convicted on the testimony of five women who claimed they'd been married to him in secret ceremonies as minors. The youngest of these women had been eight at the time. After decades of horrific crimes, Tony Lama was convicted in 2009 of taking girls across state lines for the purpose of sex. He was sentenced to the maximum 175 years in prison. Now, he ultimately serves only a fraction of that because In May of 2017, he dies at the age of 82. But he still spends a decent bit of time in prison and he dies there. So. So I guess that's as good as this story was ever gonna end.

[Samantha McVeigh]

I wanna know that the prisoners cuddled him.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Samantha McVeigh]

I'm just kidding.

[Robert Evans]

I wanna know that. Like. Yeah. Did they try to bring him back? I don't know. I hope he had a bad time. I hope it was all bad from that point on. Right. Cause he didn't get nearly what I would describe as a fair punishment, like nine years in prison for what's really a dizzying array of crimes.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Right. And the fact that he left a majority of his adulthood in luxury and like, infamy, people respected his stuff. That's really disgusting. It makes me. Yeah. Angry at the entire system. Like, the fact that people are okay with this. Like, I want to know, did Michael Jackson. Obviously he can't now, but like, Mr. T. Die Parton. Anybody ever talk about, you know, having a shame in that or like, renouncing any of those things? Did they at least burn?

[Robert Evans]

I haven't run into it. I mean, what are you gonna say? Like, hey, you know, this guy who sold you bought a jacket from turned out to suck. So, like, it's not like, you know, it's not like they were like working together, you know, like, it's not like Dolly Parton was in business with him specifically. She, like, she did some shows at a venue he owned. She owned a jacket. Like, I don't know where we lock that in in terms of responsibility on a moral level.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Right. I mean, at the very least, like, acknowledging that the victims existed, including the child labor that went into her work.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. I mean, I think it would have been good to say something for all of these people who bought Alamo jackets, but I'm not surprised they didn't.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Of course not. They wouldn't. Yeah. I mean, we don't know who the queens and kings and presidents are at this point.

[Robert Evans]

No. Yes, I do want to know. Yeah, I do. Imagine the king of Saudi Arabia has a nice collection of. Of rhinestoned denim vests.

[Samantha McVeigh]

I mean, I feel like Bill Clinton probably had one. Like, I could see him putting one of those on and playing his saxophone. That feels on par.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. I wouldn't be shocked. I wouldn't be shocked. Especially since we know he was a fan.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Right?

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. Well, that's the episode.

[Samantha McVeigh]

I need to save my computer. How do I do this?

[Robert Evans]

Just burn it. Just burn your computer. Oh, man. Good stuff. Well, anything you want to push out there, Samantha, you want to plug at the end here?

[Samantha McVeigh]

You know, we talk about stuff on stuff mom never told you'd about how the world is awful and similar to these bad people and hopefully solutions or at least positive things. So if you want to come listen to us, you can find me on bluesky McVaysam. I do have Instagram and all that, but I'm rarely on.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah, well, check out Sam McVeigh. And check out. Maybe don't check out social media too much, but, you know, if you do find Sam on it. Yeah.

[Samantha McVeigh]

See my dog.

[Robert Evans]

And above all else, don't buy a denim jacket. They're all made by cult leaders.

[Samantha McVeigh]

Especially if it's bedazzled.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah. Yeah, especially if it's bedazzled. Just avoid that for your own soul's sake. All right, and that's the episode, everybody. We're done. Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, Visit our website, coolzone media.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the Bastards is Now available on YouTube. New episodes every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to our channel, YouTube.com behind the Bastards.

[Maria Tremarki]

Welcome to the Criminalia Podcast. I'm Maria Tremarke.

[Holly Fry]

And I'm Holly Fry. Together, we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime.

[Maria Tremarki]

Each season, we explore a new theme. From poisoners to art thieves, we uncover.

[Holly Fry]

The secrets of history's most interesting figures. From legal injustices to body snatching.

[Maria Tremarki]

And tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in cocktails and mocktails inspired by each story.

[Holly Fry]

Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Nancy Grace]

Where is Missing mom of Florence?

[Samantha McVeigh]

This week on Crime Stories, we're joined.

[Robert Evans]

By Payne Lindsay from Up and Vanished podcast. She just fell off the map completely looking at her.

[Nancy Grace]

It would be uncommon for Florence to go hiking or camping without her cheek children, leaving them with no idea where their mother was.

[Robert Evans]

Her personal items found outside of this man's tent.

[Samantha McVeigh]

What the hell happened?

[Nancy Grace]

Listen to Crime Stories with Nancy grace on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

[Robert Evans]

It was big news. I mean white girl gets murdered, found in a cemetery. Big, big news.

[Payne Lindsay]

A long investigation stalls until someone changes their story.

[Samantha McVeigh]

I like saw hoping that happens happened.

[Payne Lindsay]

An arrest, trial and conviction soon follow.

[Holly Fry]

He did not kill her.

[Payne Lindsay]

There's no way is the real killer rightly behind bars or still walking free. Did you kill her? Listen to the real Killer Season 3 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Robert Evans]

To have a murder as gruesome as Jade Beasley's doesn't happen very often down.

[Maria Tremarki]

Here in Marion, Illinois. An 11 year old girl brutally stabbed to death. Her father's longtime live in girlfriend maintaining.

[Robert Evans]

Innocence but charged with her murder. I am confident that Julie Beverly is guilty. They've never found a weapon, never made sense. Still doesn't make sense. She found out she was pregnant in jail. The person who did it is still out there.

[Maria Tremarki]

Listen to Murder on Songbird road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever.

[Robert Evans]

You get your podcasts.