Pro Talk with Tombstone Builder Ray Billings!

Summary

Behind the Bots: Pro Talk with Tombstone Builder Ray Billings!

Podcast: Behind the Bots
Episode: Pro Talk with Tombstone Builder Ray Billings!
Date: May 28, 2026
Host(s): Jake, Brandon
Guest: Ray Billings ("Tombstone" builder, BattleBots legend)

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Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, Behind the Bots sits down with one of combat robotics’ most iconic figures: Ray Billings, the creator and longtime driver of Tombstone. Ray recounts his journey through the evolution of combat robots, reflects on the arms race of technology in BattleBots, muses on the educational value of robot building, and shares stories, insights, and future plans—including previews of upcoming events and projects. The conversation balances technical deep-dives with a sense of fun, making this a must-listen for both longtime fans and newcomers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Ray’s Origin Story & Early Robots

• Entry into Combat Robotics:
  • Started in 2000 after a coworker and fan of early BattleBots inspired him.
  • Partnered with his son, Justin, to build their first robot.
  • Early builds included "Darkness," a pickaxe bot, showing Ray’s initial design thinking.
  • "He lit the fuse on a bomb and then ran out of the building and it just blew up on me." (Ray, 02:21)
• Transition to Spinners:
  • The hallmark horizontal spinner began when Ray discovered a bar of aluminum at a metal surplus shop, inspiring Tombstone's lineage.
  • "It was really just happenstance." (Ray, 06:04)
  • Shin Splitter was the first heavyweight spinner and precursor to Tombstone.

The Evolution and State of the Sport

• Early vs. Modern Eras:
  • Post-Comedy Central “Dark Age” was kept alive by non-BattleBots events (e.g., RoboGames, Steel Conflict).
  • Allowed for the continued development of teams and technology.
• The "Power Creep":
  • Transition from lead-acid to LiPo batteries and the RC/drone industry’s impact on component advances.
  • "We're always kind of a fringe bit of tech build up here." (Ray, 15:00)

Technology, Design Choices, and Adaptation

• Weapon vs. Drive Philosophy:
  • Ray prefers huge, two-wheel-drive bots to maximize weapon mass.
  • "I'm unapologetically a big weapon. That's what I'm going to show up with and what I'm going to build." (Ray, 28:30)
• Engineering Lessons at Scale:
  • Scaling up bots presents unique physical challenges; heavyweights deform metal rather than just flying apart.
  • Shock-mounting and material choice (ex: titanium’s springiness) are crucial for reliability. (39:18–40:26)
• Arena and Rule Changes:
  • Arena modifications like the "shelf" have made life harder for horizontal spinners.
  • "I am not a fan [of the shelf]...It's death if you get pushed there." (Ray, 47:12)
  • Developers don't always tell builders about environmental changes, requiring adaptability.

Brushless Motor Adoption and Drivetrain Innovation

• Transition from Brushed to Brushless:
  • Tombstone moved from massive brushed motors (1,800 amps at spinup!) to lighter, custom-mounted brushless triplets.
  • "The power to weight ratio can't be ignored." (Ray, 32:56)
  • Custom casting of tires for improved grip.
• Tradeoffs:
  • Brushless systems require more tuning but offer significant weight savings.
  • "[Brushed] control was dirt simple...enough wattage to power a small city for a brief second." (Ray, 34:17)

The Meta, Branding, and Audience

• Signature Styles:
  • Maintaining the Tombstone brand helps consistency with fans (and toys).
  • "You build a fan base because Tombstone always looks like Tombstone." (Ray, 52:05)
• Toys and Merch:
  • Deep satisfaction seeing Tombstone toys in stores.
  • "That is one of the coolest things in my life." (Ray, 53:00)
• YouTube Content Creation:
  • Weekly updates engage fans and preserve robot history.
  • "It's just another way for me to engage with the fans of the sport because the sport has the best fans, hands down." (Ray, 57:58)

Educational Impact and Career Benefits

• Robots as Resume Builders:
  • "Your resume, all it is is a ticket to get an interview...If you have a bullet on your resume about you built a combat robot...that guy's going to want to talk to you." (Ray, 19:46)
  • Ray himself was hired at Intel because of his robotics work.
• "Stealth Learning":
  • Kids learn engineering skills invisibly by building robots.
  • "They have no idea all the different skills that they're learning because they're just doing something that they enjoy." (Ray, 18:20)

Event Experiences and Global Combat

• Open Sauce Preview:
  • Maker/YouTube-centric expo in San Mateo, CA (July 17–19, 2026), with Tombstone and 30-lb bot Disinformation on display.
  • Showcases the breadth of Ray’s work, from fairyweights to heavyweights. (59:43–62:10)
• International Events (ROBOTECH, Brazil):
  • Overwhelming excitement and scale (100,000+ attendees).
  • Brazilian teams’ resourcefulness and skill are world-class.
  • "The top Brazilian teams are as good as anybody on the planet." (Ray, 70:04)

Future of the Sport

• Sustained Growth:
  • BattleBots’ return to TV sparked massive grassroots interest; more kids, clubs, and events than ever before.
  • Antweight arenas lower barriers; smaller bots teach the same critical skills for a fraction of the cost.
  • "I think our future here is actually pretty bright. I think we're getting more people involved in it and I think the next few years that's just going to continue to grow." (Ray, 85:50)
• Potential TV and Format Shifts:
  • Pro League is testing new formats for possible future broadcast.
  • If heavyweights get too dangerous for arenas, Ray thinks builders will adapt and continue.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On being a “veteran” of the sport:
  "I'm getting to the point where I'm one of the old guys in the sport, and that's fine. I'm okay with it." (02:00)
• On robot innovation and arms races:
  "I'm taking two steps forward and the guy next to me is taking two and a half steps forward. He's just going to beat me." (13:37)
• On the shelf and horizontal spinners:
  "I am not a fan. That is kind of almost death for horizontals because it just removes so much of the floor space...It's death if you get pushed there." (47:12)
• On the significance of toys:
  "That is one of the coolest things in my life, was the first time I saw my robot for sale in a department store." (53:00)
• On "stealth learning" for kids:
  "The more exposure we have as a sport, the more of those kids we can reach. And I think that's key, really." (19:11)
• On BattleBots’ role in the rise of grassroots events:
  "I think BattleBots coming back on TV probably helped a lot of those small events because now people that never even thought about it, they see it now, they want to build a robot." (84:15)
• On the eternal “end times” of robot combat:
  "It's always just the end times. The sky is always [falling]." (12:48)
• On heavyweights deforming steel:
  "At the end of the event, the robot is about a quarter inch shorter front to back...That's just the steel compacting from those hits throughout the event." (42:56)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Ray’s Origin & Early Robots: 02:10–04:53
• Discovery of the Horizontal Spinner Bar: 06:04–07:29
• The RoboGames & the “Dark Age”: 08:14–11:29
• Biohazard vs. Megabyte and tech arms race: 09:57–13:37
• Tech Evolution—Batteries & Motors: 14:23–15:29
• Last Rites & TV Aspirations: 15:42–18:10
• Personal/Professional Growth via Robots: 19:11–20:51
• Weapons, Drive, and Design Philosophy: 22:13–28:30
• Adapting to Arena and Rules Changes: 47:03–48:53
• Brushless Motor Transition: 32:01–35:47
• Machining, Materials, and Scaling: 37:32–40:58
• Branding and Fan expectations (Tombstone toys): 52:05–53:41
• YouTube & Outreach: 56:33–57:58
• Open Sauce Event Details: 59:43–62:41
• Robocore/Brazil Robot Scene: 67:19–71:48
• Physics of 30lb vs. Heavyweights: 76:54–77:38
• Weapon Geometry & Engagement: 78:06–80:48
• Future of the Sport, Pro League, and TV: 81:22–85:50

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Conclusion & Takeaways

Ray Billings’ conversation is an insightful primer on both the technical and cultural evolution of combat robotics, as seen from the perspective of a hands-on veteran. The episode blends deep technical knowledge (motors, materials, frame design) with an appreciation for the community—both present and future—of the sport. Ray’s forward-looking but unsentimental optimism, wit, and willingness to share "trade secrets" make this episode essential for anyone interested in the mechanics, history, and future of BattleBots and its wider world.

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Full episode and more content available at:

• Behind the Bots YouTube channel
• Follow Ray Billings on YouTube for in-depth robot content!

Transcript

[A]

From Cincinnati, Ohio, Bowie, Maryland, this is behind the Bots, the podcast that brings you the stories of the people behind the bots. I'm Jake.

[B]

And I'm Brandon.

[A]

And today on the podcast, we have a huge guest, the legend Tombstone Ray Billings. If you like our show, please rate us and review us on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Spotify, Tunein, Castbox, Player FM and Podbean. Follow us on our Instagram and Facebook BehindtheBots and go subscribe to behind the Bots YouTube channel. We're gonna start uploading the streams and VODs to that channel and doing more of that in the future. And tell a friend we really appreciate your support. Time for Combat Robotics event calendar. What is going on in May?

[B]

All right, so this month we have tons of events all across the world. We have events right now occurring in the U.S. uK, Canada, Latvia, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland, Lithuania, Portugal, and Norway. That is most of Western Europe, everybody, and lots of North America, too. Biggest highlight from the. From the month is Texas Robot Combat's Robot Rodeo, just featuring the largest amount of 106 ant weights, plastic ants, and beetle weights. They're going to be competing this coming weekend of May 23rd. Go to get details on this event and more at robotcombatevents.com builders db.com and bristolbotbuilders.com now we head into our interview with Ray. Ray, how's it going?

[C]

Hey, guys. How you guys doing?

[B]

Doing great. Glad to have you again.

[C]

Oh, yeah, I'm glad to be here. I love talking about robots. It's pretty hard to get me to shut up sometimes. So this is funny.

[B]

Robot stuff is always a fun time, that's for sure. Right? So, Ray, you've been in the business long, long time. Longer than some people have been alive, which is probably something you don't like to hear often, but something that has to be recognized.

[C]

Hey, you know, it's cool, you know, I'm getting to the point where I'm one of the old guys in the sport, and that's, that's. That's fine. I'm okay with it.

[B]

Always glad to hear it. So for those who don't know, or maybe just know, maybe the latter, stories about Tombstone and beyond. Tell us about your. Your origin story. How did you get into the sport?

[C]

All right, so if you go back far enough, I've had more than a few careers in my life. And at one point in time, I actually taught computer networking at a trade school. And my boss, the department head, was a big fan of the original battlebot show on Comedy Central way back when. And so he would tape the episodes on VHS tapes, and he would bring them in and we would watch them between classes. And I had a bit of fabrication background and he had a lot of electronic background. So between the two of us, we got the idea that this is something we could do, we could make this happen. Unfortunately, after he got me all excited about building something, then he took a different job and he left. So it was kind of like he lit the fuse on a bomb and then ran out of the building and it just blew up on me. So it sort of moved from being me and my boss to me and my son Justin. And we started building it all the way back in 2000.

[B]

Oh, wow. Okay. All the way in the beginning there. Interesting how you kind of got conned into it, though. But, you know, I guess happy ending in that way. So when you first got into it, you said around 2000, is that right?

[C]

Correct. Yeah. So that was when we first started building, was in the year 2000. So our first official event was BattleBots 5. Back in the Comedy Central era, most

[A]

of our viewers were born after 2000.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get that. So you can call me the grandpa here. That's fine. I'm okay with it.

[B]

Oh, my goodness. All right, so you got into BattleBots season five. What'd you bring?

[C]

I have a flatbot called Darkness. So it was basically, it was just like a pickaxe setup. And, you know, I mean, it was. It was a solid build, but it wasn't anything like what I'm known for today. And so it was. Yeah, just pulling up some pictures there. It wasn't. It wasn't all that impressive. But I did win some matches with it because in general, the stuff back then was, you know, it was easier to win back then than it is today. Things are. Things are a lot nastier now,

[B]

so.

[A]

But you can.

[B]

With that, would you. Sorry, go ahead, Jake.

[A]

Yeah, you can very much see, like, okay, you're. You're evolving that shape with the two wheels. You know, just add a horizontal spinner, and then you've got tombstone, though.

[B]

So it was.

[A]

It. It made sense. Right?

[C]

Well, I. I've always. I've mostly stuck with two wheel drive. I figure if you're gonna devote weight to a weapon, you don't necessarily need to throw a bunch of weight into the drivetrain. I. My focus has always been on a big weapon, and so pretty much all I've had a few that were four wheel drive, but almost all my robots have been two wheel Drive.

[B]

Ever considered four wheel drive? Just skipping a little bit ahead over the. For the bigger bots, later bots and so on?

[C]

Yeah, I mean, there's certainly advantages. I don't want to make it seem like I'm, I'm right and everybody else is wrong. It's just in my case, I was always after the biggest weapon I could make happen. And the easiest way to do that was just to, you know, limit the drivetrain to where I wasn't putting as much weight in that and focusing on making sure the weapon was as mean as I could make it.

[B]

Intense stuff. I love it. It's like with. With Darkness, So obviously not. Not the same as Tombstone. This is a black bot. So mainly the drivetrain is like your biggest strength as opposed to the big old bar. What made you want to go to the big old bar once you drove Darkness and battlebot?

[C]

All right, so you get out of the battlebot seasons and now we're kind of moving into the early Robo games stuff, Steel conflict events way back when. And, you know, I'm trying to come up with a new idea. And literally I walked into. There's a place here in the Sacramento area that sells surplus metal. And I walked in there and I found a bar of aluminum, basically the shape of what the weapon bars I have right now. And I just bought it because it was cheap. And it's like, I can make something out of this. And then when I got home, it's like, okay, so let's design some teeth on this. In turn, it was really just happenstance. I walk in and I see a piece of metal that's shaped like the weapon bars I still use today. And I just use that as a basis to start that very first spinner weapon.

[B]

So it became a vision. So you saw the blade and like Michelangelo seeing the David and Marvel, he saw the big bar tube stuff.

[C]

They're very similar. I walked in, here's this long piece of aluminum basically shaped almost exactly like the weapons I still use today. And it's like, I can make something with this. And so that that first heavyweight spinner was a robot called Shin Splitter. And you know, it was a precursor to every other spinner I've made since then.

[B]

Oh, I mean, very descriptive name. Said it said it was a heavyweight or middleweight, correct?

[C]

It was a heavyweight, yeah.

[B]

Heavyweight, yeah. It's a precursor. Okay.

[C]

Yeah. You know, so how did.

[B]

Excuse me. So back in the Robo Games era, way back after the, I guess the first, you could almost think like the dark age between battlebots is probably central to the ABC runs. The original Dark Age is there. Robo Games. Fantastic. I grew up watching Robo Games, seen lots of all the big bots coming up there. So they also had the benefit of, I guess, with BattleBots, multiple weight classes. Because today we mostly think of BattleBots as just the heavyweights, just the biggest, baddest boys. But we also had a lot of the MC middleweights and lightweights who are also in the big box with you.

[C]

Yeah. If you think. If you think about that, you go back to the original battlebot stuff that was on Comedy Central. They had different weight categories, too. So they had lightweights, middleweights, heavyweights, super heavyweights. They had four categories here. And so a lot of those. Those people that were excited about the sport, that were happy to play with the sport. When Comedy Central got canceled, there was just like this big vacuum. There wasn't anywhere you could take heavyweight robots. And so that's where events like Steel Conflict, like Battle beach, like Robo Games, all those ones, sort of tried to fill this void. And the reason we have so many good teams today is because they had the opportunity to improve and build and compete with heavyweights through those intervening years. So when BattleBots came back, you had a whole bunch of really good robots already ready to compete because they'd been competing for years.

[B]

So you can almost. So it's like the underground current, it kept it going because at this point, everyone's thinking BattleBots is over. And I know I'm like the general, larger cultural zeitgeist, like McDonald's toys are gone. We don't see in it there. We think it's gone. Robo game still conflict. They're still going nerc over the East Coast. They're churning along. It's. It's kind of interesting. Like, I remember seeing. I only like super heavyweight Tombstone, which is its own very interesting ancient times there. Yeah, I remember even Middleweight Witch Doctor. I remember Sewer Snake, who.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Is rebranded a Stinger. I remember seeing probably one of the most devastating I. One of the most devastating fights of my young childhood. Which was Biohazard's last fight against. Was it Megabyte or Gigabyte? Thinking Megabyte.

[C]

So Biohazard in that. The one that you're talking about, he fought. Fought Megabyte. Okay. And got shredded. Right. And it took him because he had to fight again that day. It's a double elimination tournament. Right. And they couldn't put it off to the next day, so he spent all day getting it put back together. So he could go back in and fight. Very last fight of the day, we didn't even have any audience in there. Everybody had left. It was that late. And he had. And he had to fight. Paul Bentamiglia's brutality. Oh, and he got shredded again. He got absolutely cut up again. So he. He went 02. This is the, like the. One of the winningest heavyweights of all time. He went 02 at that event because he just got sliced up, you know, in the years between when he retired and then he decided to come back for that event, Kinetic Energy robots got a lot better. Yeah.

[B]

Because by 2005, for that Battlebot, his last fight was 02. Right. Like last season of Battlebots, right? Yeah, yeah. Three years, you're telling me three years, right? Huge spike.

[C]

Oh, yeah, yeah. And guys got good in that in the intervening time. Right. You know, it used to be, you know, he could count on. Way back when in the Comedy Central area, you get a guy with a big weapon, you bounce him off the arena rail, the weapon quits working. And then he could just push him around and do whatever he wanted. And it didn't work that way. Later on, those. Those guys weapons kept spinning and they kept cutting him up pretty good.

[A]

What was the general vibe of people like early in the sport? Did they realize that it was going to continue for 20 years? Were they, like, worried about it going to, you know, was it going to shut down next year or anything? You know?

[C]

You know, yes and no. It's kind of cut in both directions. So, like, a lot of people, every time an event stopped running, okay, so, like, you know, Battle beach only ran for a few years and then he stopped. Right. And so if you were one of the locals back there in Florida, it's like, oh, my God, what are we going to do? Where are we going to go? There's always this panic that sets in, and eventually other people are dumb enough to decide they're going to run a robot event and they build an arena and away they go. So it's this cycle of excitement builds and then let down when things don't go the way you want and there's nowhere to take your robot. And then somebody fills it and you go right back to getting all excited and building again. And that's just where we probably are forever going forward, this back and forth of, hey, I've got this event I would build for. Oh, there's no more events. What am I going to do? Hey, there's another event I'm going to build for you. Just keep Going back and forth. So I don't think that's really changed in all the years we've been doing it. It's always been that way.

[A]

It's always the end times. Got it.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

It's perpetually the end times. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Right.

[C]

The sky is always.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Cool. It's much like robots themselves. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. That's actually a really great way to frame things. Like, I didn't think about that sort of power creep already between biohazards, you know, last BattleBoss tournament and last, last tournament. It's kind of comparable to what we're sort of seeing today because people have been really talking about at large, the big hike between the lipo and brushless era, where now you have this absurd amount of power density able to just be put in these robots. And now it's matching with like giant arms race. The wear plates like ARS and whatnot.

[C]

Huge spike power. Yeah. It just keeps marching forward and, and the thing is everybody is marching along. So it's one of those things where it's like, you know, I had some success and then I've had some years where I've struggled. Well, it's not like I didn't change things. I'm marching forward too. But, you know, I'm taking two steps forward and the guy next to me is taking two and a half steps forward. He's just going to beat me. Right. And it's this, this weird little arms race. You go back and forth. And that's part of any competition, that's part of any actual mechanical sport. I mean, you want to see some weird stuff. Look at all the different cheating that goes on in F1. Those guys are at each other's throats all the time to try and find some little way to be better than everybody else.

[B]

Oh, yeah, it's incredible. It, it's. It's kind of remarkable how we kind of gets this high level of innovation which is. Ends up being like a runoff of the culture that's built in. I remember, you know, early 2000s, giant lead acid batteries, very common. You don't have a lot of these lipos that are really commonly made or nearly as safe as they are now.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And then you march forward five years, you march four or five years after that, and it's like, oh, things are changing pretty fast. And that was all like a result of the. No, lots of the drones and rc airplane, like RC industry getting bigger for sure. Electric cars like that.

[C]

Because, you know, the, the, the manufacturers out there, they're not making parts for combat robots. They're making parts for bigger markets than us. And so we're, we're, we're, we're always trying to follow Hilk. So what are the big RC guys doing these days? Because they're the ones that are kind of forcing things to change them. Okay, what are they doing that we can use? And then you like, basically try to grab their tech and move it into combat. It's, it's, we're always kind of a fringe bit of tech build up here.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. But one thing I did want to get to before we move too far forward in time is if anyone didn't remember the house days of Robo Games, there was before Tombstone. Well, he said you were Tombstone. There was last rights.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And with Last rites is much of the hype that comes with it, especially over time. Most notably, there was the killer robots special that Granny Mahara hosted back in 2011 at Robo Games. And that was, I think one of those big seminal moments of robots back to tv, which at that point was.

[C]

Yeah, it was, it was a lot of fun. It was a really cool little show that we did. I ended up losing in the finals on that particular one. So that was, we did really well for that particular matchup. And it was cool to put something back up on tv, kind of keep it in the mind of both the audience and TV people in general. And I'm sure that stuff like that helped make it easier for then battlebots later to make their move to get back onto the big screen.

[B]

Yeah, so like, like in those years, I guess at that event specifically was there just in the cultural, you know, minds of all the builders there was there still that yearning for like a TV return. Like we want a BattleBots reboot if it comes through this special or if it comes through some other way. But something like it back to the, the house days of the 2000s.

[C]

I, I, I honestly think most of the people that competed at, at that event when we were more of the mindset that I want to do good at this event because I'm having fun, it was less about the TV aspect, just more love of the sport sort of stuff. I think more of the I want to be on TV comes from once BattleBots was back on sort of like as a weekly thing, then you got a whole bunch of people that go, I want to build a robot so I can be on tv. It wasn't necessarily that they, they had that long term love of the sport. They were like, I could do this. So I could get on tv. And I mean, everybody's got their own reasons to be in the sport. I'm perfectly happy to get filmed or not get filmed. I'm gonna have just as much fun whether it's on TV or whether it's, you know, the. If the three of us are having a fight and nobody's watching, I'm gonna enjoy that too. It's just. It's a different mindset for me. I. I'm okay with being on tv, but I'm okay with not being on TV too.

[B]

Sweet. So, I mean, I like it. Sometimes you just gotta do it for the love of the game. I mean, that's microwave. That was. I was thinking about.

[C]

The only upside, I would say on the Getting on television is not what it does for me, it's what it does for, like, kids that get excited about science and get excited about engineering and get excited to do things with their hands instead of playing a video game or. Yeah, I mean, they want to build something. And as a society, we need that. So this is one of those sports that engages with that kid. So suddenly he's going to be excited about making something. He's going to design things. Buddy of mine called it stealth learning. So they have no idea all the different skills that they're learning because they're just doing something that they enjoy. And the more exposure we have as a sport, the more of those kids we can reach. And I think that's key, really.

[B]

I love that because I know, like in. I know my background, especially in, like, Jake's background, both about clubs of people where he tried to start stuff at universities, get a club going, got a couple students who are interested in building stuff and then their futures after graduating really gets defined by working on the robot less even. So the degree they were doing, it's like, yeah, I guess I learned how to do a fourth, you know, fourth level derivative in calculus. But it's different because now here's like a physical thing I can hand you. Why would you hire me? This is why you hire me.

[C]

Well, and okay, so, you know, I'm. I'm older, I'm retired now. I don't got to play with that whole job market anymore. But wow, I have done a lot of hiring, I have done a lot of interviewing. And I'll tell you that your resume, all it is is a ticket to get an interview. That's all it is, okay? You want to be able to go in to talk to somebody, and if you have a bullet on your resume about you built A combat robot. And you competed and you did this, you designed this. Here's the skills I learned doing that. That guy's going to want to talk to you. You're going to get the opportunity to actually be interviewed because you got something cool on your resume and it, it has value. I retired from Intel Corporation here in Folsom near me. I got that job from combat robots. I didn't get it from anything else. I got the job because of being in this sport. It's a big deal. And you know, I'll tell you, you guys will always have doors open because of it.

[A]

Hopefully.

[B]

I love it.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

It's the heart of it all, I'd say. Because then I, I think like one thought that comes to mind parallel with that is, besides, I've gotten my job the exact same way. So 100 can recommend.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

It was also the fact that people, my job guide side with me about it. Like, like even just be being even just beyond having introductions like, oh, he just. BattleBots person. People I've talked to will mention to me, so like, how do those things work? Like, when's your next event? Like, do they still do that? What's to say to BattleBots? I'm like a BattleBot spokesperson by defacto. Wherever I go, they're always asking, what's, what's BattleBots doing? Hey, my kids saw this thing called an intro on Tick Tock. What's that doing? Yep, all the stuff like that. And it's, it's funny seeing how the sport is growing out and growing with other things like that and becoming part of this like cultural zeitgeist of wanting to build stuff like physical tactile learning.

[C]

Right. And nothing replaces that. I, you know, you can take wonderful engineering courses. You can understand, you know, calculating moment of inertia down to the nth degree. And if you've never actually turned the handle on a mill, if you've never actually cut a piece of metal, you're not as good. You need that hands on part to make it work correctly.

[A]

So in thinking about and looking at your robot on the topic of changing things and working overtime to make stuff better, one of our viewer questions was if you had to retire tombstone and build a different archetype, what would that look like?

[C]

Well, so I have built some vertical spinners, some drums, some vertical disks and whatnot. I do like the energy transfer that you get from a vert. You know, the equal and opposite thing you're hitting up. Well, you're pushing against the floor in the earth. You Got a hell of a mass advantage that way to knock somebody high. So Verts are winning a lot now for reasons, I mean, there's a reason to do it. I don't know that I want to do what everybody else has done. I guess maybe that's part of it, you know, I mean, I'm, I'd have to find a way to make it unique and different for me if I had to. I don't know. We'll see. It's, I always have more ideas in my head than I have time and money to build. So I'm glad that will always be true. Yeah, honestly, I've got kind of an interesting hammer idea that is different than what anybody else has done. So if I ever got really serious about it, that one might be kind of fun.

[B]

Bit of a teaser there. I see teaser there. Can't hear it from the side. Hit it from the top.

[C]

Well, you know, the thing is, nobody armors the top. I mean, they're starting to, you get Scorpios and, you know, the, the, yeah, saw blaze and whatnot, cutting people from the top. So they're starting to a little bit. But a big overhead hit is a danger to almost everybody that's competing.

[B]

Well, you heard a here folk, you're worried about it. And in fact, the second half of that question, if you had to build a bot with a fruit theme, what fruit would you choose? As you're seeing maybe to go with that hammer.

[C]

I saw that question. I, yeah, I don't know. Fruit theme. I've got some weird themed ideas for robots, but I'm sorry, none of them include fruit. I, I,

[A]

you gotta, you gotta brighten your aesthetic.

[C]

Okay. Yeah, well, you know, everybody's always joking about the banana for scale. Maybe I'd just make it, you know, banana shaped or something.

[B]

Ah, banana for scale.

[C]

Well, I could incorporate the hammer in the banana. That would be kind of interesting.

[B]

It all works well now, you know. So you have the theming and you have a weapon idea. You're setting yourself up pretty good. That's really good stuff. So then other side of that equation. So you've also run many, many powerful horizontals over time. Like you have tombstone, you run for many years and then last rites processor to it. Mortician famously also right there in parallel to them. So what do you say has been one of the advantages of having that same style of bot for 20 years? So

[C]

one of the keys for that is sort of the ability to direct when and how you hit your opponent. A lot of people have A lot of armor up front. And if you can manage to zip past him and then turn in from the side, you can usually catch a wheel, you can usually catch a square edge. You can hit them someplace they don't want to be hit. And so as long as you drive well, that's a huge advantage. Another one is that you're spinning the weapon in the same geometric plane that you're driving in. So instead of you got the big vertical guy's trying to turn and he torques up and comes down, torques up and comes down. You can't make a turn quickly if you've got a really high powered vertical weapon, whereas you can with a horizontal. You're not fighting those gyroscopic forces. You can turn in the quicker and more control bolt because your spin ending in the same plane you're driving in.

[B]

It's true. I mean, after all, our good friend here, Jake, also big fan of the horizontal plants here with this robot maximizer.

[A]

So, so that, that was one of the. Another one of the, the viewer questions was the tombstone maneuver where you turn into the wheel. That's been turned into an archetype. So with the Thagomizer style design, you've got the shield in the front and then you use that, that whip effect to hit the side of the robot. Alex Pick from Cole. Have you considered ever changing up tombstone to kind of lean into that so, you know, lighter weapon armor on the back?

[C]

Yeah, and it's a valid question. The hard part then comes taking the weight away from where I want the weight to be to make something like that happen. That will hold up in a heavyweight category. I think it, I think this is one of those things that doesn't necessarily scale the same. So I think it's one of those things that works really good in smaller robots and as they get bigger, I think it's maybe less effective.

[A]

Well, your moment of inertias, I'm not

[C]

saying it wouldn't work.

[A]

Yeah, your moment of inertia, the scaling is. It's taken me. The first Thagomizer robot was a one pounder and it's taken me three or four years now to get it working well enough in a 12 pounder so I would suspect it would take a similar amount of time to get it working in a heavyweight.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Interesting.

[C]

Yeah. At that point in time you have to, you have to make the focus not be the weapon.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[C]

It's going to have to be the structure of the robot. It's going to have to be the drivetrain. It's going to have to be your control. And the weapon for the maneuver is sort of secondary to all those other pieces. And I'm not saying that's wrong. That is wrong for me. I'm unapologetically a big weapon. That's what I'm going to show up with and what I'm going to build. So it's a valid design choice. I don't think you'll see me do it though.

[B]

So pairing off of that on your YouTube channel, which has just hit 60K subscribers, congratulations on that.

[C]

60,000 subscribers. Yay.

[B]

Like and subscribe to Ray Billings on YouTube.

[C]

Absolutely.

[B]

We saw some of the updates to Tombstone because namely, one of the big things everyone was talking about was how you added wheel guards over Tombstone, which is something historically, you know, it's always been every commenter from Peter Timbuktu has been saying, put some wheel guards on it. Like, take some.

[C]

The Internet is so full of experts, let me tell you. Yeah. So in my particular case, what was starting to happen was, you know, I spin up, I hit the other guy. I'm storing more energy. The other robots are storing more energy. A lot of times what would happen, I'm breaking gearboxes and I'm shattering the magnets in the motors. Okay. So it's not so much I was trying to protect the wheels from the other robot, it's more I'm trying to protect them from myself. So I needed something there to just, you know, I'm not going to have enough armor out there to really take on the weapons of other heavyweights. I mean, heavy, it's just hit really hard today, but I think it was going to be enough to keep me from slamming into the wall hard enough to break things. That was the point to it.

[B]

So as part of the development of Tombstone thus far, or actually see here in the, the video, in the stream, on the. On the updates here to Tombstone. So in years prior, Tombstone had the very sort of. You have the gearboxes sort of bolted in like the shock mounting sort of thing. And then you had. Looks to be like they're sort of the more standard wheel with like a steel core to them. I forget like the exact name of them. Yeah, obviously, you know, then you switched it up to like this Yachi gearbox and then custom urethane wheel combo this time around.

[C]

Right. Well, okay. So this was the first time that I actually tried casting my own tires and they turned out really good. I was actually really happy. They're kind of expensive compared to just buying off the shelf stuff, but they Great traction. Held up fine as far as driving around. It's something I'll probably do more of down the road. And yeah, the Yachi boxes are. They're pretty solid. That's a really good product right there. And I just, I made my own custom mounts and gears to mount a brushless motor onto the box and I was actually pretty happy with how all the drivetrain came together more brushless.

[B]

A certain to pair off one of the listener questions. One Jameson Go asks Ray, are you a brushless believer now?

[C]

I was always a brushless believer. I've run a lot of the smaller robots just fine. So the hard part is obviously getting the control aspects to work the way you want. And it's less off the shelf. Correct. The heavier you go. So obviously I can't dive into too much of how the event itself went. I do think that you'll just continue to see Tombstone using brushless motors going forward. It's just, you know, always going to take some work to get a big brush motor is just so simple and easy to control and you know, these are a little, little more problematic. But the power to weight ratio can't be ignored.

[B]

Yeah. Because I was looking at some of the videos earlier. So you went from like a 1. I forget exactly what it's called. It's the really big one.

[C]

It's the meat 0708 on that particular 708. Yeah. So it's a. The E tech R E tech replacement motor.

[B]

ETEK replacement motor and it went to like three sort of more pancake larger diameter motors. And like how, how does it compare power wise or weight wise and stuff like that.

[C]

So weight wise I lost 10 pounds, 12 pounds going from that big single brushed motor to the three brushless motors. So weight wise it was hands down a win. Power wise on paper the wattage is the same between the two. That raw torque at 0rpm brushed is always going to win. That's just the simple truth of it. So you don't quite have the raw torque at zero RPM you do with a brushed motor, but the actual ability to do work is the same for a lot less weight.

[B]

Fair enough. Was it also big like controlling. I know a lot of people have a lot of concerns like vests being very much more fine tuning and hearing stuff out. Brushed is much more like the power and go.

[C]

Yeah. So in that regard certainly there's a, there's a downside to it. So the, the big motor that I always ran in Tombstone before, I was literally turning on that with a big marine Contactor. So it's just they slamming on, and away you go. And that motor pull just over 1800amps at spin up. So. So that. That's what I was forcing into that motor every time I spun it up, which ended up causing some issues as far as that. Reason not go. But it was. Control was dirt simple, you know, enough wattage in there to power a small city for a brief second as. As it's spinning up

[B]

because you're like, you're running a What. What voltage?

[C]

60.

[B]

60. So 60 times 1800.

[C]

60 volts. 1800. Yeah. Now. Now, granted, that's a. Yeah. Spike. It's not holding that over time, but that initial spike exceeded 1800.108,000 watts, as

[B]

the calculator says, for a brief moment. Right. Let me see If I find that.763. That's 141 and a half horsepower instantaneously.

[C]

Correct. Most of which is making heat a good point. Okay. Right. You got to remember, there's not a lot of the efficiency isn't the same as for, you know, the. The. The brushless motor. So. And that. That initial spike, the reason I got that number is because the. The gigabyte guys, they had a controller and a speed controller that they were using to power the same motor style in. In gigabyte. And I burned through several of them, and he. He's like, yeah, it's. They're set to go to 1800amps, so you're. You're exceeding that.

[B]

Oh, man.

[C]

So, yeah, so, you know, it. It's not like I've got a, you know, a shunt that I'm measuring that much. It was. That's what I was burning through to. To start it. So.

[B]

So the tombstone's actually able to pull absurd amounts of power, probably even more. But everything around that motor is saying, please stop. We have. We have lives. We have families. We don't want this to happen.

[C]

If you watch any of the matches when I. When I click it on, it has enough torque when it spins up, it actually whips the robot around, you know, just. Just, you know, from. From spinning up the weapon.

[A]

So you were on this massive. What you weighted in here at 30 pounds, 29 pounds, and then you went

[C]

28 and a half pounds.

[A]

And then you went down to this assembly here with three individual motors, which is.

[C]

Which. It's just like 16, if I remember correct.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

[B]

Wow. That's crazy. That's so much like space optimization goes into it.

[A]

It's a. And it's a Different package too.

[C]

That also helped too, because the height of tombstone before was built around the height of that weapon motor. Using this new setup, I was able to shrink the height of the robot. And the new version is way more compact than the previous one.

[B]

Between those two different versions, or even just between all the previous Tombstone versions, last frights versions and so on. What are some like the big lessons you've learned with namely big bot designing compared to the little bot design? I think most people, especially in the east coast, think of small bots, but heavy weights are.

[C]

There's a whole bunch of things that don't scale. You know, you think, oh, I'm going to do the same thing. I'm just going to scale it up to make it bigger. And that, that is a recipe for failure. Okay. So it's one of those things where you're used to smaller robots when they hit each other simply flying away from each other. Whereas with the big ones, there's enough mass when they hit each other. Metal simply deforms because they have enough mass. They don't fly right. So you gotta take into account how much the frame and all the pieces in there are gonna be moving when. Because the frame itself is gonna flex under these big hits. Because there's no way you can make. There aren't materials stiff enough to not have it flex under those big hits. And so you have to plan on stuff moving in there that you wouldn't plan on a smaller robot. I mean, you could just zip tie something down. You can glue something down. It's good. It's not going anywhere. It's not how it's going to work on a big guy. Things are going to twist and shift under those big hits. And you got to take that into account.

[B]

And like a big part of that, even small things like fasteners or the power switch, like even they have inertia. You don't think about them having inertia.

[C]

Big ones, yeah, yeah, you don't think of that. But I shock mount all kinds of stuff and they're in one way or another. So like, okay, not so much this version that the plate, everything's mountain to is aluminum. But in the previous one, that big motor was mounted to a titanium plate. And titanium is naturally kind of springy. And so under those, because that motor was heavy and you didn't want it to break or anything. So the tie actually gave it a little bit of wiggle room in there to move around under these big hits. So I wouldn't crack the, the, the casing of the motor.

[B]

Interesting. That's, that's different than if you try to just do more steel. You're thinking, deal just like a bent.

[C]

Well, if you try to make that particular mount, because I actually tried that, making it more solid, and you do that, the motor itself starts breaking because it has so much weight that it wants to, it's gonna move. And if you don't have any flex there, it's just breaking the housing.

[A]

Often there's like an intersection where it's like, okay, I can make something on this design stronger so that it doesn't break. Or making it weaker is just as good of an option and is probably like a better, you know, implemented design, right?

[C]

Yeah, you gotta make your compromises all the way along. You're compromising here and there and try to figure it out. And yeah, sometimes it's like, you know, maybe this isn't the best design, but it, it fixes my problem right now and I can move on to the next problem, you know.

[B]

Wow, these are crazy. Actually, you had two friends, Julian Linden, they joined the Bloodsport team for the pro league and they're very, they're, they've already started their first robot or first like bigger robot was a 40, 45 pound shuffler called Emperor, which is a giant bar inspired by Tombstone as well.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

And that machine was nuts because it was already like their reference point was let's use some, you know, 80x size motors, you know, something that heavyweights are referencing for use. And I remember they went out to battlebot, they saw bots, you know, like Tombstone, like Calypso. They're just enormous machines, right. And I just thought, oh my goodness. They're, they're like, they're, they're so excited to see it now. But at the same time, it's, it's just thinking about how do you scale that? So I know even with emperor being a 30 pounds, even 45 pound shuffler, you can allow TPU to exist. Aluminum make it thick enough, generally doesn't flex as much. But it's crazy thinking about how even like a welded steel to frame like Tombstone, even the billet like Bloodsport, it will deform.

[C]

Correct? Correct. So I'll give you an example. The first few years that for, for the ABC season. So the frame is still the welded steel structure like I've always made. At the end of the event, the robot is about a quarter inch shorter front to back. Oh, no, nothing is bent. That's just the steel compacting from those hits throughout the event. Okay. The amount of forces These robots are under is unbelievable bronco, because it's got that big ram that pushes for the flipper. Well, in launching that, he's actually stretching his frame the other way and it's about a quarter inch longer at the end of the event.

[B]

Oh, I didn't even think about a flipper stretching a frame. Oh my gosh. Like, I, like I think most people probably assume, oh well, it's going to be transferring all the force out of itself and if anything it might compress itself against the ground to flip you. But it's that sort of added angle going out.

[C]

Yeah, well, the, the flipper's at an angle, but the ram is pushing pretty much straightforward and it stretches the robot over time.

[B]

Gosh, heavyweights are nuts.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's an obscene amount of power. It really is.

[B]

Heavyweights have seen amount of power, so I guess. So going with that with heavyweights having power level, having such an increased power level because I know people have mentioned it just, you know, even casual conversation, that some of the benefits of older school robots is they were more containable because your power is naturally being kept at some level by heavier batteries and such. Exactly. Then you have like the, the battery tech and the motor tech increasing. Is there a point where the heavyweights are almost becoming this almost untenablely massive level of power?

[C]

So, so the, the tip speed limit that BattleBots put in season three or four, I think of the reboot was part of a way to try to address that. So they just, they have the excuse they're doing this because they don't want high speed shrapnel that can damage the Lexan and there's data that backs that up. But a side benefit of that is they're just trying to limit how much energy that we're taking into the arena. Are we going to reach the point where the box is no longer safe to contain them? I, I don't know. I know I've cost him a lot of money in repairs to the arena over the years. So there was a pretty famous match. It was me against Minotaur and I, I think there were a dozen 11 or 12 fairly substantial holes in the arena floor when we were done. So what, what they had is they had an 8th inch steel floor and when that got banged up and they welded a new 8th inch piece on it and that got banged up and they welded a new one and they're like, they've got 38 inch of steel, but it's not a Single piece. It's layers. And when I catch it, if it was a single 3, 8 inch layer, I don't know, I'd go all the way through it. But in separate layers like that, it made it easier for me to grab. And I was cutting all the way down into the sports steel underneath that, that holds it up. It was, there were some really big hits from that. And so he had to replace the entire arena floor for the next season. And yeah, he, he made sure, he pointed out how much I cost him in that particular day.

[B]

Like a running tracker of like this hole is you, this paint.

[A]

So that's why he put the shelf in.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

To get back at you.

[C]

Right now I think is perfectly adequate to continue. It's perfectly safe. If we keep moving up, they're gonna have to keep making changes. And I, you know, the day could come. They're just like, you know what? We don't want to run 250s anymore because we're, it costs too much. Keep the arena going. And if they, they picked a new weird category of like £150, something like that, everybody would build and show up. We'd figure out a way to, to do that. So it's, I don't, I don't want to suggest that because I don't want to lose all the stuff I've got built for this weight category. But if he came out with that decision tomorrow, I wouldn't argue with it either. I, I get what they're, what they're saying. Anytime anybody wants to make a change because they worried about safety, I'm on board for that.

[B]

Yeah, pretty definitely fair argument to make. And like Jake was saying as well, like a little earlier, it's like the shelf is quite an interesting design part for battle.

[C]

Okay. I, I, I, I, I don't wanna, I don't want to say how I really feel about the show.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Let's just say I, I am not a fan. Okay. Okay. Yeah. That, that is kind of almost death for horizontals because it just removes so much of the floor space that I have to work with. So it's, we made the arena half size when they did that because I can't get into corners. It's just, it's death if you get pushed there.

[A]

How much do you think that environmental changes like that affect your decision when you, you know, when you go back and you look at the robot, you know, how much are you thinking about stuff like that?

[C]

You have to take those things into account. And my worry there is sometimes they make changes and they just don't tell us. Okay. So at one season they decided where the kill saws come up out of the floor. They were going to add basically little carbide sparkers. So when they come up, it shot sparks up and it looked great on camera. So I get what they're doing and why they did it. But there was a little slot in those Lexan panels and they made it wider so that the sparks could chew out. Well, they made it wide enough that the nut on the bottom of Tombstone Spinner, it was exactly the right size for that to fit in there and get stuck. Okay. And so I had a couple of matches where that turned into an issue. And I get why they did it. It would have been nice to know what they were doing before I got there. And you know, we're, we're just the builders. We don't, we're, we're not privy to those sort of things. So sometimes that gets a little frustrating.

[A]

I just got unshackled personally. They switched the walls from wood to uhmw@nhrl.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

So exactly. That has been like my, the highlight of my week is for the first time ever, I hit the wall as hard as I could and I bounced out instead of getting stuck and losing,

[C]

which is like freedom. Yeah. You know, and I mean, you know, there's nothing that says the EOS have to inform us of those things either. But it, it's, it's one more thing you have to worry about when you get there is, okay, well what did they do this time? And then you got to try to adapt when you're there on the fly.

[B]

Yes. Like pairing off of that idea there. How much. So I think about combat robots, it's fascinating because there is a driver's skill baked into it because humans are driving the robots. Let's say Orbitron maybe continues to develop, maybe that changes at some level. But generally speaking, humans are driving the robot, so it's definitely built in skill in the moment. There's also a really big known element of how you design or to solve your problems in the pits is a huge element of, of how these robots are designed.

[C]

Well, that design process is certainly when you're designing it to begin with and when you're building it because they change as you're building it. But there's a piece of it that is how can you adapt when you get to the event? Because sometimes you're going to see things like you could have an idea about all the opponents that you're going to face, but you show up and one of them is suddenly doing something completely different. And you got to, okay, so how am I going to address this different thing when I go in and if we have to fight. So some of the success of the sport isn't just your ability to build and design. Some of it's your ability to design on the fly when you get to the event.

[B]

Absolutely. Were there are any stories of that when you're preparing for a machine or, you know, in competition, looking at your opponent and you think to yourself, I want to change this thing because I think it's going to make the big difference in the fight.

[C]

That happens all the time. And, you know, it's, it's. Sometimes it just comes down. You've seen attachment wars, I'm sure at events where somebody sets up the robot one way, the other guy sets it up to counter that. Well, then they change. They put a different attachment on, then they change, and it goes back and forth for, you know, the entire time they're in line trying to get ready to go into the end of the match. And, you know, it's, it's, it's. We all want to win, so I guess it makes sense. But sometimes it gets kind of weird.

[B]

That's true. I think it's a lot more. I mean, it's kind of prevalent. I think ribbon was very famous. It had both the horizontal and the vertical configs, and they're able to quick swap those. I think it's even more prevalent in the insects and other sort of small weight classes. Just the mass to it as well. But it really seems a lot more in the directory of most battlebots that they seem to really lock in on their design, try to hone it. That could just be an effect of the past five years, you know, after season seven. But it definitely has that, like, profile. Once you maintain. You could think of like Hypershock has to sort of maintain its general vertical shape, of which Dr. So on and so forth.

[C]

Yeah, well, you know, some of this is, you know, I hate to. To put it this way, but I mean, you know, if you want to be successful at the heavyweight level, then you kind of also want to be known for what it is you're bringing. Okay, so you build a fan base because Tombstone always looks like Tombstone. You know, if I were to say, hey, it's Tombstone and I showed up with a, you know, a witch doctor clone, people would, it's. It's not Tombstone anymore. It's a different robot. Right. And the other side of that is, you know, I was one of the ones that was lucky enough to have my robot made as a toy. And so you don't want somebody to go, they bought the tombstone toy, and they go. And it. This doesn't look like what you showed up here with. You know, I mean, you kind of want some consistency there, and it's. It's part of making the sport successful for TV and whatnot. To do that.

[B]

That's good metagaming right there, Ray. That's very clever.

[C]

You know, I mean, you know, it's. You know, don't get me wrong, it's not like I got a ton of money out of the toy deals, but to me, there's a personal satisfaction that comes from walking into. You know, they used to be at Target. I walk into Target, and there's my robot on the shelf. To Amanda, I'm telling you right now, that is. That is one of the coolest things in my life, was the first time I saw my robot for sale in a department store.

[A]

What. What did that process look like? Like, how do you get your. A toy made of yourself? I mean, like, what does that look like?

[C]

You know, so. So basically, those first couple of seasons, you know, we had. Because Vex was really involved in the whole reboot, they were one of the major sponsors for a lot of different teams. They were really involved in trying to get this back and go in. And so they were the ones that made those first series of toys. And they're just gonna. They're gonna pick the ones that obviously they need to do well, but they need to. Then they need to have an audience engagement. They need to be ones that the people love for whatever reason. And, you know, mine was one that was just universally liked. I wouldn't say I was universally liked, but the robot was universally liked.

[B]

So he says.

[C]

So he says, you know, and so it was one of the ones. The very first ones that was picked. And I'm telling you. Right, okay. So, you know, I knew it was happening. I knew they were coming. I knew that this was gonna happen. The first time I actually saw the. My toy on the shelf, it was out of Target. And I walked over the garden center and grabbed one of their outdoor chairs and walked back and plunked it down in the aisle and just kind of sat there and stared at it for a minute because, I mean, this is just a, you know, this. This was a life achievement moment for me.

[B]

Awesome. That's so good. Like, did the. I guess, going with that, like, did the Vex team tell you, hey, toys coming out. I Don't know. First could June look out for it.

[C]

We were communicating back and forth, so I, I was aware of what was going on. You know, they're sending, you know, here's the proof of concept type stuff, and we're communicating back and forth to make sure that they looked the way that was accurate to the robot, but was also sort of accurate to me, the guy that built it and whatnot. So I knew it was coming. There wasn't any surprise to any of it. That didn't stop it from being a big moment in my life when I actually saw one for sale. You know,

[B]

it's excellent. First of all, congrats on that. That's still really cool. I still have a copy downstairs.

[C]

It is still a big achievement for my life. It really is. You know, I've got all of the toys factor all out in the game room next to the trophies. So, I mean, you know, they're kind of a big deal to me.

[B]

Kind of a big deal. So. So pairing off with things that are outside related to BattleBots, but also not the robots themselves. Seth of Jessica's Robotics asked, so, Ray been making a lot of YouTube content recently, which is very cool, very interesting. So how do you maintain that kind of YouTube consistency? How do you find the time for it? How do you sort of figure out what you want to post about and stuff like that?

[C]

Those are actually fair questions. Because sometimes it's hard to think, okay, I have tried to post weekly for the last couple of years. Sometimes if I'm building stuff, I'm getting. Building for an event, I'm getting ready to do something. The content is. It's in front of me, I'm actually working on it at that point in time. But then you'll get points like, it's like, okay, I. I need to post something and I haven't filmed anything because I haven't been doing anything. And so sometimes it's a little less. It's. It's hard to maintain kind of a routine schedule. Luckily, I've got enough fight history throughout the years that I can usually go back and grab one of the older ones and talk about some of the. The previous fights and what we're doing there. And so I can keep posting content about stuff that's interesting. Some of those old fights are just. They're really cool. And it's still part of the history of me as a robot builder, the team and whatnot. So, I mean, it's still, I think, engaging and it's something that makes it easy for me to Keep doing something week after week.

[B]

Do you see the YouTube as like in sort of like a, I don't know, like a tool for people to look at and so get inspired as to how robot designing is or a way you can share about how robots work or how do you get to the YouTube channel.

[C]

And a hunk of that is that for, for me, I think the biggest piece of it is it's just another way for me to engage with the fans of the sport because the sport has the best fans, hands down. I, the people that come and watch, they're amazing. And I get a lot of questions of how do you do this, how do you do that? You get interaction this way. And so this, this gives me the opportunity to go, here's the projects I'm working on right now, here's what I'm doing, here's why I'm doing it. And so it just kind of is a way to engage the fans that are, that love this sport as much as I do. So, you know, I mean, I do it mostly because I just want to be able to continue to engage with those fans between events.

[B]

Well, it's solid. I appreciate it. I love it so personally thank you for that. Okay, so I really, I really appreciate all the posts there. And so, so for right now we're going to do is we're go to a quick break.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

A little, little pause here. We're going to come back and talk about more fights and robot stuff with Ray.

[C]

Sam.

[A]

And we are back with Ray Billings. We just got in a conversation about machining and Open Sauce. So you're getting ready for open sauce right now?

[C]

Yeah. So Open Sauce is this wonderful kind of a maker focused annual show in the San Francisco Bay Area. And kind of anybody who's anybody with YouTube presence is there. They have a lot of different symposiums and you know, discussions going on and a whole bunch of creators there and it's kind of a big deal. And BattleBots has been there luckily enough been there every year and will be there again this year. So I'll have, I'll have Tombstone there, the new version on display. So if anybody wants to come see and check it out, see what the new version looks like, we'll definitely be there. It's July 17th through 19th in San Mateo Convention Center. That's where it's going to be.

[B]

San Mateo. How, how far is that from San Francisco maybe? Is it near the Bay Area or is it.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's. In fact, Robo Games has been at San Mateo. Oh, okay. Okay. So it's a, It's a building you should be familiar with. It's where Robo Games was.

[B]

Oh, very nice. Very good, Very good.

[C]

So. And yeah, it's. It'll be fun. We'll. We'll. We'll have a good time. They are planning on having the Scar arena come up from Southern California and we should be running some 30 pounders for combat there as well. So assuming, Assuming I get it done in time, I'll. I'll have disinformation there. The new version and so should have a chance to hit some things and see how it does.

[B]

So your first test of disinformation is gonna be fighting, I don't know, let's say Little Ash, I'm guessing.

[C]

I'm pretty sure that's one of the ones that we. I think there's like five or six robots right now, and probably more that get. Get tossed in before it's all said and done. So there'll be some competition and some good ones too. So it'll. I'll get tested. I'm sure

[B]

that's gonna be fun. So the idea that you have the 30 pound arena right there. So let's say someone walks by, they hear immediate like spin up, bang. And they can look over and then you could, you know, pull your robot out and you're like, hey, walk over to Tombstone. Pop it right next to Tombstone. I made both of these the same sport.

[C]

Well, you know, I'll, I'll have the little ferry with me too. So, you know, we got one at half a pound and then all the way up to heavyweight at 250, you

[B]

know, so that'll be a good display. I'm excited for it.

[C]

You know, it's a, It's a, It's a really fun event to be part of. You know, San Francisco Bay Area has a lot of people that go to these sorts of things and you just get mobbed the entire time we're there. We're talking with the fans that they love this stuff. I spend the entire weekend talking to thousands of people. It's. It's. It's kind of a cool thing to be involved with. So I'm glad we're going back again this year. Should be fun.

[B]

That is pretty good. I'm glad. For. For sure. Like, do you anything. Do you know who other Battlebot teams might be there? I'm assuming Whiplash is going too, somewhere.

[C]

I've got a list of the people that are going to be there. They had to limit it because It's a kind of a tight space. So it's, it's either 12 or 16 teams, something like that. It's not, it's not an open thing for everybody, just a few people and they tried to, they tried to focus it to people that had been there previously and also have a YouTube presence because that's kind of the, what the, what the whole show is about is, you know, digital creation on, on YouTube. So we're, you know, lucky enough to at least have some measure of following that way.

[B]

So that's pretty cool. Are there are any sort of things that you've seen at Open Sauce that really stood out to you or have you just been mainly tracked to the battlebox series? Talking people coming back?

[C]

That's the sad part of the, these things is I usually just get like bolted to my, my display area and I just can't get the chance to walk around. So there's been some really interesting stuff there for sure. Last year or year before, there was a guy that had, it was a mobility, it was like a wheelchair but instead of wheels, it was this entire walking mechanism. And so he's just walking around on this thing through the entire. It was the coolest thing ever. You know, you get, you get a lot of just if you've got a weird idea and you built something unique, this is a place you get to go to show it. So there's a lot of really weird stuff and most of it is just really cool. So it's, it. The few times I've had the chance to walk around, it's been eye opening. You know,

[B]

it's pretty good. I love it. I think it's gonna be pretty fun for you and anyone else who attends.

[C]

It's a lot of fun. They have a really good time and you get some talks and dislike. We usually end up doing a talk at one point in time. They got multiple stages, so they'll usually be one that's centered on us for BattleBots. But you know, like Mark Rober goes every year, he's up there doing his displays and whatnot. So a lot of really high end names from YouTube show up to do this and it's, it's, it's, it's kind of cool. Just some of the what cool stuff they're getting, building and doing and you know, filming. So it's, it's, it's. I wouldn't miss it. I'm glad we're going back. You know, it's, it's a lot of fun. It's a lot of Work, but it's a lot of fun.

[B]

You know, I feel like even though it's a bit of work, you're probably familiar with that kind of heavy.

[C]

Well, it's, it's just a cool thing to be involved with and I haven't, I've been to all of them. I think this is the third or fourth year at this point. So I. As long as they'll keep inviting me back, I'm gonna keep going. So it's a lot of fun.

[B]

Sounds good to me. So you mentioned this information. So for all those who don't know, if you haven't watched the YouTube channel, it's pretty cool. But this information is getting rebuilt, it's getting remade for open source like you said. But even before then, this information's already had a bit of a life before. People have seen it. HRL people seen it. Robocore. So like what some of the. Some highlights you remember from disinformation's lifetime so far.

[C]

Excuse me. So we had a lot of fun taking it down to Brazil. That was a lot of fun. And then I've had two different events back at nhrl and we also ran it as part of the display on one of the earlier open sources because NHRL came out with their small arena and they ran some 12 pound stuff there and I used it there to just sort of tear stuff up in the arena for display. So it's, it's been around. I, when I built it, I was not thinking I was going to be running it that much because it was kind of a new toy for me. So I had two events back at nhrl. I went down to Brazil, I had the SCAR event at one of the Robo Games, I ran it there and then they did that display. So it's, it's seen a lot of arena time for something that I wasn't planning on running that often, you know.

[B]

Absolutely. So like specifically with this information, being a robot that has gone to Brazil because most people in the United States have not gone out of robocore experience, which you always see, you're like here, it's a really great event. You have gone down there.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So. So what are some of your observations, some of your takeaways for when you were fighting down there? Disinformation.

[C]

So the year that I went down there, I don't know if it's every year they do this, but the year I was there, I was in. If I tell you this is a big building, I, I guarantee you're not thinking as big as I'M going to try to explain to you. Okay, so the entire. It's, it's, it's chained into a bigger event. So they have, you know, 80 or 100,000 people that come to this event and the robots are like a portion of this. So it's a big event. Right. And the building that we're in, the entire thing is set up in like a quarter of the building and the rest of it is just open. So it's like I've been in airplane hangars and weren't anywhere near as big as this building. It's just massive, right? And you've seen Brazilian teams up here. You see how excited and enthused they get for what they're doing. Imagine a hundred thousand of them in an area all trying to watch fights going on at the same time. It is insane how much fun it is. And they have. Similar to how Robo Games is run, they have a lot of events, not just combat. So there's some line follower events, there's some search and rescue type stuff. There's a lot of events going on that aren't combat related. It's all going on kind of simultaneously. They do hockey, they do a lot of stuff. And the pits is huge. The, the building that you were in for Robo Games, the entire building, that's how big the pits are for Robocorp. It's just an unbelievable amount of people. They're all super excited to be there. They were all super excited to have me there. And so I was like mob the entire time of people asking questions about Tombstone because it was like I had so much fun. If you ever get the chance to go to any of the events in Brazil, I highly suggest it. Most you'll have enough people that speak English that there's no language issues and whatnot. I recommend it. I had a really good time. It was a lot of fun.

[A]

There's only one word in Portuguese you really need to know though, which is parabens, which means congratulations. And that's, that's what you got to use when you get your ass kicked. So, you know, I,

[C]

well, they're all. I'll give you that too. You know, it's. It's like any event you go to here, you got a whole bunch of people that are competing that they're not going to win, but they're going to show up and they're going to have fun and they got a few teams that are absolutely, really dominant and it's going to be one of those few teams that win the top Brazilian teams are as good as anybody on the planet. They are every bit as good as the top teams from the U.S. they're really, really sharp engineers and they come up with some really tough robots.

[B]

Yeah, I remember, I think Jubaloo was the first foreign born robot.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

First foreign born robot to win a dumpster. And, and that was already.

[C]

It's a tiny tombstone. Come on. It's great.

[B]

It was all part of it. It's all part of the connections there. They do they, they wanted to make sure they had a good design, built it up, honed it and they dominated with it's.

[C]

Well, I actually fought it once and he, they kicked my ass. So, you know, very, very solid robot.

[A]

Yeah, they're running the 90 degree gearbox. They're part of the reason why I went to that 90 degree gearbox on my robot. Just because like the power you get from switching that motor.

[C]

Well, they're just trying to, trying to get things cramped down and you know, get, make it as compact as possible. And I'm telling you that's one of the things the Brazilians are really good at. Making their robots super compact. I mean if you look at Minotaur, you said it next to Tombstone. I mean it looks like I'm fighting a middleweight. It looks like it's half size robot. It's just because it's van very compact.

[B]

Yeah, actually and as well sort of going off with that. The same robot, same Jubile. When it was at Robot Rampage, it and the Brazilian team gave quite the run for money of Team us Ofa. When we went down there for about rampage when we had uh, you know, Corey, Sam, Colin, Johnny, Aki and I, I think anyone, I think that was team most of it. Like when they were there and they were talking about the Brazilians, it was like an immediate tear up. You know. Like people I think fought Spartan and Johnny, you know, worked on Spartan, did a great job building it up. Just got him, he got him. Just so reliable from all those years of fighting.

[C]

Yeah. And Johnny's no slouch, man. He's good, you know. But the Brazilians, they're tough.

[B]

They're really good. They're really tough.

[C]

Well, the thing is, so they have, they have a hard time getting a lot of the electronics that we take for granted here. It's really hard for that stuff to come into the country. And so they're always, they're very inventive in how they make things work because they have no choice, they can't, they don't have the same access to parts that we do. And they're, they're really good at what they do. I pat them on the back as much as I can. Those guys are really solid, what they come up with.

[A]

How do you like Johnny's new horizontal, his 30?

[C]

What's that?

[A]

How do you like Johnny's new Spartan 30, his new horizontal?

[C]

You know, him and I have talked a little bit here and there. He sent me some pictures and whatnot. I, I, I think it's going to be a lot of fun. I think he's going to do well with it. You know, he's a solid builder. So, you know, I, I certainly wish him, wish him luck. I'd love to see it, love to see it do well.

[B]

Yeah, because he's going to June hrl, which is like three weeks from now. So we're gonna see Big Morris part in 30 pretty soon.

[C]

I, you know, I, I'd love to go back to another NHL event. It's just time and money. It's, it, I've, every time I've gone, I've had a blast. So we'll see what the, the new version of disinformation looks like after, after fighting it, you know, at Open Sauce. We'll see if it's worthy to, to fly all the way back there, see

[B]

if it's where they gotta, gotta prove your, prove your worth, kid. You gotta test them well, get some good runs there.

[C]

Well, I'm already going to Open Sauce. It's not costing any extra to suddenly decide I'm going to fight it down there. It's kind of expensive to fly across the country, take the robot with me, get somewhere to stay and whatnot. So it's, I'd like to make sure it's at least going to put on a decent showing before I spend that kind of money.

[B]

Yeah, 100 people would love to see disinformation going for a golden dumpster run, I'm sure. And if you get it there and power to you.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, you know, the thing is I always have fun back there. The, the events are a lot of fun. So, you know, it's, it's something I'll definitely do again. Am I gonna make it happen this year? I, yeah, I don't, I don't know. Yeah, I'd love to, but we'll see.

[B]

That makes sense. Absolutely. Do you, do you attend? Well, how many, how many events are nearby for you? Like sort of the smaller events. Are there a lot of them in NorCal or the majority in SoCal? We know of scar people. But what's it like for you locally?

[C]

There are quite a few insect events that, like, if I want to go to the Bay Area especially, there's a few there. There's a few up and down the valley here and there. There's a group that runs events in Roseville, which isn't too far from me. So I've gone over to their events, but when I've gone to any of those, I've just gone, as you know, Ray Billings, the guy from BattleBots, and not taken any robots haven't gone to compete at any of those. And so I don't know. I mean, it's, it's. I build some smaller robots. I've had fun with smaller. I have a real hard time really deciding I'm gonna build an insect robot and go compete. It's just, it's not, it's not that I don't find it interesting. It's just my thing is the bigger robots I like, you know, 30 is about the smallest. I want to make an effort at interesting.

[B]

So I know from, I think primarily from the east coast, probably because we have so many insect weights. The view is sort of, you always want to start with your ants and work your way up to the 30s. And maybe if you join a BattleBots team, go to the heavies. Yep, absolutely.

[C]

Yeah, that's the way to do it. If you're getting into the sport, start out with the small ones because you learn the same skills, you have the same fun, you're not spending anywhere near the same amount of money, and you still run into the same people. Because we're all addicts. We're all going to be at every event. So I, you know, if you're starting out and you want to get involved, absolutely. Do one pound, do a beetle weight. Do, do a smaller robot. Me, starting from the other end of making big robots, it's just I, I, I really have a hard time focusing on the little guys.

[B]

Gotcha. Gotcha. So like you said, the 30s would say the 30s have a utility compared to the heavies. Because I know colloquially people have said 30s are like the closest you can begin to approximate heavyweight physics reasonably. Because the insects are so much lighter.

[C]

Correct. You do start to get some, what I would call more real world physics. The little guys, man, they fly like crazy and whatnot. It changes as you start moving up in 30s, where you first start getting that the spot where instead of flying, material deforms. Okay. So instead of flying away from each other, you're actually cutting holes in ar plate. You can do that with a 30. You're not going to do that with the tiny ones. They're just going to fly apart from each other. So some of the physics start to change as the mass gets bigger. And 30 is the point where it starts to approximate more. What's going to happen with a bigger robot?

[B]

Gotcha. Absolutely.

[A]

Last of kind of the viewer questions. So you've got this big asymmetric or, excuse me, symmetric blade. On Tombstone, you mentioned like you just got a piece of aluminum that was like the perfect size.

[B]

Have you ever thought about, like playing

[A]

around with different weapon geometries, like an asymmetric blade or, you know, what do you see in the future of, of that bar shape?

[C]

Okay. The reason to use an asymmetric blade is to get the bite you need to get engagement. That's why you do it. So if it's spinning super fast and you only have one tooth going by instead of two, you're more likely to get the engagement you're after. So if you're spinning a weapon, you got a beetle weight and you're spinning it at 10,000 rpm, one tooth versus two tooth doubles the chances you're going to engage with that hit because you know, it has to make a full revolution to make contact as the robots get bigger. Let me take that back. As the weapon length gets longer, the need for an asymmetric blade drops because you're getting engagement, you are going to engage. You know, you're. I'm spinning the weapon at, you know, 23, 2400 RPM. And so at that point in time, I'm, I'm routinely seeing strikes 3 or 4 inches up on the edge of the weapon.

[B]

Dang.

[C]

So, so I'm, I'm not, I'm not having a problem with engagement. Now. If I was grinding against the other guy and not getting full engagement, then I'd say, yeah, absolutely, it would make sense. And if I made avert and I'm spinning it a lot faster to get that tip speed to be the same? Well, now all of a sudden it makes sense because the spin circle is smaller and you kind of need that to make sure you get the engagement. With a long horizontal bar, I just don't see an advantage to it. I get plenty of engagement. I don't have an issue with that.

[B]

So going with that, how, like, how big is Tombstone's bar?

[C]

The new versions are quite a bit shorter. And so I need basically long term data on that to see if it makes sense now. So the Previous version, the weapons were. Most of them were, you know, 32 to 36 inches long. The new one is 26 inches. So I'm spinning it faster to get the tip speed to be about the same. The energy total should be about the same, but the spin circle is significantly smaller now. And is that enough to make me think I need an asymmetric blade? It wasn't when I built it, but you got to kind of get some. A few matches before you decide. Yeah, it would make sense now. And, you know, I guess that that's still kind of out for debate at this point in time.

[B]

Yeah, fair enough. Because, after all, I'd be remiss if I didn't bring it up at least once. BattleBots Pro League. That was very exciting. Definitely exciting to see BattleBots doing more stuff again. Good to see heavyweight fights and whatnot at this point in time. The episodes, or, you know, whatever they make of them, has not been released publicly yet.

[C]

Right.

[B]

So we're not gonna ask for any sort of spoilery stuff, but at the same time, over sort of your general take on maybe just BattleBots, how they ran it or the other robots and how they made their own and evolved with it and stuff like that, it

[C]

was a fun event, I'll tell you that right up front. You know, there's going to be some great matches. Whenever they get them aired put on, people are going to like what they see. Things didn't necessarily go the way you think they're going to. So there are some matches that you're sure we're going to go one way that go the other way. So you're going to have, I wouldn't necessarily say a lot of upsets, but there's a few, and it's going to be interesting. You're going to see some cool fights from all of this. Are they going to do it again at some point in time? I know that they've considered this, that they want to do this, and some of the. Some of the format of how they did this is they're trying to show that this is a viable format for filming. And who knows, someday that may turn back into something back on TV again. I know they would love that. I know that they would love to have everybody watch when it comes up on YouTube. And so if they get the numbers there, that helps make it more viable to try to get back on TV down the road. So, you know, when it. When it comes out, everybody watch. Make sure you watch what's going on. You're not going to want to Miss it anyway, but we kind of need those numbers to be good. So it's something that they want to continue doing down the road.

[B]

Yep, heard it here, support it. Want to give more, more robot combat on TV. BattleBots Be On TV famously has a deal with the Zone or the Pro Tour, which just came out as well. They're trying to get on tv.

[C]

I saw that. I think that's awesome. I mean, you know, they've, they've got a lot of their, you know, their filming arrangement set up in house and whatnot. I'm glad that they've, they've got everything set up and I, you know, I think it's super awesome that they're getting more exposure because it's a, it's a great event.

[B]

Absolutely. Won't do a full recap of all that now. Don't want to make it too long, but I definitely recommend anyone who can rewatch the streams on YouTube, you know, see the stuff on done or the Battlebot stuff on YouTube or wherever else the, the stuff gets shown at. Because it's just cool seeing the robots still being active because we sort of, you know, began way at the beginning or talking about this as well. But there was a sizable period of time when there wasn't a sport like this.

[C]

Correct.

[B]

That was on tv, let alone existed. And then we had a great though 10 plus year dark age between the Comedy Central to ABC years, little blip, then discovery again. Now we're sort of in that, trying to get back up there period. So it's, it's exciting sort of seeing all that coming together in real time. So Ray, as someone who's seen all of this over the widespread of the robot years, what's sort of your, your take on where you think combat's going, where you think the future is going for, you know, coverage, robot designs, event style.

[C]

Yeah. What's your future? So I mean, going forward, I think I see the sport continuing to grow as far as numbers of people competing. So I think BattleBots coming back on TV probably helped a lot of those small events because now people that never even thought about it, they see it now, they want to build a robot. So now you've got, you know, you got 10 year olds that never had any idea whatsoever and all of a sudden they're like, you know, pestering dad to hey, let's go build a robot so we can do this. So you get, you get a lot more of a grassroots type thing, events just cropping up because, you know, it's pretty easy to put together an arena you can run ants in. Okay, that, that's not something that, you know, it's not the same sort of cost thing like trying to build even a 30 pound arena. You know, you can get some of this stuff. And so it continues to grow at that grassroots level and that's going to force more of the stuff at the bigger level. Because, you know, if kids everywhere know about combat robots and they want to build combat robots and they're busy doing this, well, they're also going to be forcing everybody to be watching the big stuff on YouTube, on TV and whatnot. So I, I think our future here is actually pretty bright. I think we're getting more people involved in it and I think the next few years that's just going to continue to grow. So I'd love to see, you know, some sort of TV presence again, but I don't, I don't think that's, I don't think that's the end all be all. I think it's going to continue to grow just on momentum at this point in time. I think we're in a pretty good spot.

[A]

Always the end times.

[C]

Time and money, like everything else in life.

[B]

Phenomenal stuff. Well, thank you so much, Ray. It's been a gift, honor and a privilege able to talk to you about all the fun robots stuff that you're up to now and stuff going on in the future.

[C]

This is fun. I, I, like I said, I'll always talk about robots, so no big deal. You guys, you guys want to pick my brain again, just let me know it's all good.

[B]

Of course, absolutely. Will do.

[A]

Thank you, Ray. Thank you to everyone in the audience.