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Behind the Numbers: an EMARKETER Podcast
Beyond Sponsored Products: What Offsite Means for the Media Plan | Behind the Numbers Special Edition Podcast
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Foreign.
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Hello and welcome to a special edition episode of the eMarketer podcast, behind the Numbers. I'm Marcus Johnson and today I'm introducing a special episode recorded at the eMarketer Commerce Media Trends 2026 virtual summit. In this episode we put together a panel that explores how leading brands are implementing successful off site strategies. EMarketer senior analyst Minda Smiley hosts Jason O', Toole, head of Connected Commerce and Media at Gilden and Ryan Verklin, Paid Media Retail Media Senior Lead at Bayer. Enjoy.
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Hi everyone. I'm Mindas Miley and I'm a senior analyst here at eMarketer. I'm excited to continue our programming with our first panel of the day, we'll be focusing on what it takes to make offsite retail media effective. Today we're joined by two panelists who will walk us through their off site strategies. Please join me in welcoming Jason o', Toole, Head of Connected Commerce and Media at Gildan, and Ryan Verklin, Paid Media and Retail Media Senior Lead at Bayer. All right, let's get started. So great to be here with both of you today.
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B
Great to see you.
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Likewise.
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So before we like really dive in, I do want to do a little bit of stage setting at eMarketer. We expect offsite retail media ad spending to reach almost 17 billion this year, which is about 30% growth year over year. So it's clear there's a lot of momentum and interest here. But why are we talking about this now? Like why is this an area that so many marketers are paying attention to? And Jason, I'm going to start off with you.
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Yeah. Thanks for having us Minda, this morning. Appreciate being here. So I think we have to first analyze what is happening on site to understand that migration to off site. Right. So Gildan represents portfolio of apparel and innerwear brands. Apparel is the most SKU intensive category sold online and it is one of the highest GMV categories. The problem is it's very hard to patent most clothing items.
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Right.
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So that invites a lot of competition. So what we saw last year was an incredible spike in the number of competitors across our key categories. We saw CPAs rise double digits. And because it is a profit center for marketplaces, we saw a dramatic increase in ad density. So in most of our key categories, ad density is up over 50%. Right. So there's less reliance than ever on organic placement and goodness to achieve your POS growth results. So it's naturally going to push advertisers offline to find more affordable inventory and ways to essentially skip the line of search results pages to get the consumer directly to a pdp.
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All right, and Ryan, what are your thoughts?
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Echoing everything Jason said, but another aspect, especially for CPG retailers and people who don't own their point of sales data, historically we've always used panels and modeled out data to target customers off site. And with the rise of off site retail media, with all the retailers having access to that deterministic retailer data, that one to one where you know they're buying your brand, they've bought your category before, is kind of the holy grail to companies that don't own that point of sales data.
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C
Yeah. All right, that's great. And so kind of pivoting a little bit though. I mean, what are the big challenges that are facing off site retail Media in 2026 and how are your brands each addressing them? Jason, it's a great question.
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We could probably spend the entire panel talking about it. Right. So the biggest ones, I think one is still measurement. Right. I think that it's very challenging once you go off site to understand the holistic impact that offsite has. Right. And I think that that's being addressed widely. I think the challenge is once you go outside of a single DSP environment and you try to understand halo impacts, that's where it gets a little tricky. Right. I think another one is the role. Right. So off site is meant to accomplish a couple different things. Right. There are brand building strategies and then there are also commercial outcome strategies. So the complexity inside the walls of brand to determine who is owning which tactic in which environment and what is the ultimate goal for each of those. The other is the creative demands. Right. So being on site, sponsored product ads, very simple. There's no creative lift required. As video becomes more pervasive, there's more inventory to build dynamic and creative assets. It's challenging brands who have a traditional mindset of only creating assets for a certain period of time or a certain number of assets for a calendar year. And so I think that's caused a lot of operational complexities within the walls of brands.
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C
Oh yeah, for sure. I mean, yeah, a lot of challenges and I think the measurement stuff, which I'm sure we're going to talk about more, is so interesting. I mean, so for people watching, I actually cover social media and the creator economy here at eMarketer primarily. So this is a little bit outside of my world. Although obviously there's a lot of overlap. But it's interesting, like that's measurement is just such a challenge. I feel like across a lot of These emerging channels. I mean, we see it in influencer marketing. It's a big reason why, even though we see such growth with that, the big reason why marketers are holding back too, because the measurement stuff can be really complex to solve for. So it just reminded me of that. And so Ryan, over to you. I mean, what are the big challenges you're seeing?
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Well, speaking of the measurement, measurement has been one of the biggest challenges with all of retail media. Not just off site, but recently at Bayer we've been making some progress working with the retail media networks and allowing to use our MTA measurement that we use for the rest of our national media on our off state retail media campaign. So we can kind of have an apples to apples comparison, which is great. But you know, speaking of our national media campaigns, the biggest challenge that, you know, I currently see is integrating off site retail media with those national campaigns because you are buying the same inventory and you know, depending on the retailer, depending on the brand, there is a lot of audience overlap between both buys. So making sure your retail media dollars are the most efficient is a big challenge.
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C
Yeah, for sure. And I know that's something we're going to talk about a little bit later as well, or something I definitely want to ask about. But my next question, I mean, I guess it's a little bit lofty, but I think it's interesting. I mean, what is the scope of opportunity for off site? I mean, what does it give brands a chance to do via retail media networks that they previously weren't able to do? Ryan?
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So I would say before offsite became so popular, the way brands were allocating retail media dollars was based off retailers on site activity. So what retail media networks have the most people buying and going to their own and operated website and app? And that doesn't always line up with where the Bayer consumer is. But the vast majority of our sales still happen in store. And so with retailers that didn't have a ton of on site traffic, they really got the short end of the stick for how retail media dollars are getting allocated to them. Now with off site we can really reach those shoppers all throughout the open web.
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Yeah, Jason, I think it largely democratizes the opportunity of how you can buy inventory. So if we think about traditional linear TV buys, there were a few big brands that could even get access to key inventory during peak periods. Now that CTV and OLV and other true upper funnel tactics are available, widespread, it gets really interesting. I think it does go back to. It poses new challenges for brands, particularly the creative piece But I think that it's an exciting moment because we get to redefine what a full funnel strategy looks like, how quickly we can read and react, and how we can build full funnel strategies around moments that may not be nine to 12 months out, but it's something ad hoc. Let's say somebody wears your brand and there's a massive heat moment that you want to capitalize on. You can now do that in a full funnel setting utilizing, you know, off site inventory.
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Yeah.
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And Jason, going off that just, you know, all the, the retailers and their customers are so different. The, the Costco shopper is a lot different than the, than the Dollar General shopper. So having a custom full funnel strategy that is tailored to big box versus versus dollar is something really unique.
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Yeah, exactly. And actually, Ryan, you provided a perfect segue for me because, yeah, I mean there's different types of shoppers depending on the retailer. But, but there's also, I mean, you two both work in very distinct categories. You know, healthcare versus apparel. You know, I'm sure you kind of have your own considerations and opportunities that come with just working in these different sectors. So Jason, back to you. I mean, I'm curious if you can talk about that a little bit. I mean, what are some of the unique challenges that you kind of have to face because, just because of the nature of the vertical you work in, when it comes to offsite, it is challenging.
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Again, I go back to the creative once more because there are, you know, brand guidelines that we need to adhere to. Right. But it's a trade off with things like social, your world mind of, you know, the, the, especially in apparel, social is a critical lever for us to pull. Right. And so we have to balance handing off our brand on some level to someone we don't necessarily have a long standing relationship with. And while still adhering to brand guidelines and ensuring that the quality of our message still comes through. So I think that while it is an opportunity, it's a brave new world in many respects and something that we have to be bullish but cautious at the same time.
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Yeah. And Ryan, what about you?
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So Bayer has a lot of different divisions in the company. There's a farmer division, there's a crop science division. I work in the CPG division with brands such as Miralax one a Day, Alka Seltzer. And even though, you know, we're, you know, a CPG side of the business, we still have a lot of health and regulatory guidelines that we have to follow that sometimes measurement and audience targeting, when you're going off site restrict you. So that's one of the biggest challenges for Bayer.
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Yeah, that makes sense. I mean again, going back to my world, that's like a huge challenge with influencer marketing because there's so many restrictions around like what you can even say or when you're partnering with these people and claims you can make and all that sort of stuff. So that, that totally makes sense.
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Especially when the retailer is sending their data to another platform. It gets really delicate.
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Yeah, right. Sure, sure. So moving on a little bit, I'm curious if you can talk a little bit more about where you're seeing the most opportunity and I mean that through a channel lens like social. Obviously we've been talking about ctv, but when we talk about off site, what are you most excited about? We'll start with you, Ryan.
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So just there is a lot of national dollars flowing towards CTV and being able as Jason was talking about this upper funnel campaigns, the full part of the funnel and activating retailer audiences on CTV I think is a great opportunity. A lot of retailers have been, there's been a lot of M and A in the space with recently Walmart buying Vizio. So really unique shoppable formats in retail media. I'm really bullish on and can't wait to see how the direction Walmart takes takes that.
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Okay, Jason.
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Yeah. I think we have to really adhere to a test and learn mindset because it will largely depend on what category you're in to determine what the role of each offsite property is. Right. So in apparel, social commerce is a massive opportunity for us. It's something that we've taken head on and have, have really, really zoomed in on this these last 12 months. The creator community just in general. Right. And understanding the dynamics of licensing and how do we take the creative and channels like TikTok. Right. TikTok Shop is a massive growth opportunity for us. So understanding not just GMV Max but the entire vertical of shop related tactics within the TikTok ecosystem, it's something that we're quickly trying to upscale. TikTok is a massive ecosystem. I think people think of it as just, you know, a social platform where you know, you scroll and then there's a shop component. But the, the number of different ad tactics and inventory available within that platform is astounding. And so I think it is just a matter of understanding your vertical and the consumer that sits within it and understanding the role of each tactic. So to. To layer onto Ryan's comment, CTV is a great activator for us as an awareness play for a new innovation product launch. Right. But I'm actually really bullish right now on display because the power of display remarketing and how these new AI led creative tactics can thoughtfully remarket considered shoppers and pull them into conversion environments is really fascinating. I mean we're not talking enough as an industry right now about how far display and you know, black box or AI related ads have come these past two years. But it's really, really astounding. And so piecing all of that together between ctv, OLV and then that social plus display kind of mid funnel to ultimately drive a commercial outcome is, is a winning formula for us in apparel.
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Yeah, I, speaking of new channels, I don't think we could have this discussion with talking about how retail media is getting integrated with LLMs too. You know, Walmart and Critio both announced partnerships with ChatGPT. So I know we're still really in the, in the early stages of that, but excited to see how that all plays out as well.
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Oh yeah, for sure. And I mean obviously I'm a little biased towards social. That's, that's my area. So I want to push a little further on that. I mean Jason, you talked about TikTok, TikTok shop. I'm curious if there are any other social platforms that you're really keeping an eye on that you find have a little momentum or perhaps that you think will have opportunity down the line. Jason, I'll start with you again on that one.
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Yeah, we haven't planted the flag on live shopping, so I can't confidently say one platform or another, but we're looking at several. But as we think about how successful live shopping has been in China, it's incredible. Right. And that migration to adoption over here in the United States, it's something that we have to quickly follow. So you know, as we're, as we are building a capability that supports social commerce, we have to quickly right behind that, develop one that supports live shopping. And so I think that to Ryan's point, like agentic commerce is right behind that. Right. No, no one's three year plan two years ago had agentic commerce anywhere on the radar. And so I think we know the trick is to build what we call a connected capability more than just this channel by channel siloed department team structure. Because things are just going to continue to evolve and pop up and we need to be ready to support whatever emerging channel that the consumer decides to, to, to go to next.
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Yeah, it's so interesting with the live shopping stuff. I mean, I feel like for years it was sort of like it felt like we were on the cusp of it, but then it never really panned out and I feel like we finally now are seeing like there might actually be real opportunity here in the US So definitely an area I'm paying attention to as well. I want to go back to the measurement stuff a bit. I know obviously we talked about it being a challenge, but I want to dive a little bit deeper on there and, and kind of talk more about, you know, how you're maybe addressing some of those challenges and what you're doing to kind of alleviate some of those pain points.
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Ryan so when we're having JBP discussions with all our retail partners, measurement is probably the first pillar that comes up every time. And as I kind of discussed previously, retail media has always historically lived in its own silo, using their first party sales data to measure the campaigns. And that's great. I love looking at that data, but you can't compare that data to what we're doing with the other majority of our national campaigns. So with off site in particular, we've really been pushing and you know, some retailers are more compatible about working with it than others. But using our MTA measurement that we use for all our campaigns and tagging that media so we are not just getting that the one sales we're driving to that particular retailer we're running the campaign with, but we're also getting rest of market and a true ROI rather than just looking at that new to retailer ROI that they just have access to.
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Okay, Jason, how is Godin addressing some of this?
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I love the measurement conversation right now because it is really forcing inside the walls of brand to have the conversation of brand versus commerce teams. Right before it was pretty well constructed, there was a partition that you could understand. Now because investments are leaking and inventory is leaking into so many different tactics, those lines are vastly blurring. How we found success in measurement is really finding a third party agnostic solution that can truly measure performance and incrementality across the gamut of channels that we sell to. I think it is important to get those measurements within the walls of RMNs. But ultimately it's very hard to measure. It's impossible for Amazon to measure the impacts that they're having on the Walmart or the Target sales channels, for instance. Right. And vice versa. So I think you do need to find a solution that allows for holistic measurement. Capture something like a obviously an MMX is available, but something that in a commerce environment can be More real time that actually will eventually allow you to make next best dollar decisions in real time. That you can also tell the story that even though I'm investing over here, you will see the impacts here, here and here. And that's what, that's when the conversation gets really exciting around media. So I'm thrilled at where we're, where we are as an industry in measurement and look forward to the advancement continuing.
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Jason, going off that if you're only looking at the retailers first party measurement, especially when you're looking we're running upper funnel tactics off site, you're really selling your retail media campaigns short. It is driving rest of market sales at other retailers that aren't being measured. So completely agree to use those type of models and measurements to get rest of market sales.
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And I think it actually dovetails nicely into the personalization conversation. So as our brands are building ideal Personas for our customer of the future, we're now at a stage in measurement that we can in custom audience creation, that we can build those custom audiences across multiple channels and platforms and really thread that Persona through every tactic that we do in some environments all the way down to the spot on site sponsored product ad. Right. So I think it's just we're at a really exciting time. I think that the conversation will only continue to intensify and we will continue to get more clarity in measurement.
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One more thing too. So I'm sure every brand when we're talking about to retailers measurement is a big key. But also when we're using those in platform optimizations, Roas and New to brand have been the two biggest and the most ubiquitous across the retail media networks. I'm really pushing the retail media networks to adopt incremental measurement, adopt lifetime value measurement as well. Because a lot of times just those row eyes doesn't tell the full story.
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Yeah, well, kind of going off of this topic, I mean obviously this is a fast moving space. There's a lot happening. I want to talk a little bit about what this means internally for you guys. Like how are you setting up your organizations, setting up your teams, collaborating with other teams to kind of account for all of this change that's happening. Jason, we'll start with you.
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Yeah, it's a great question. So last year when both social commerce and agentic commerce were on the rise, we realized new channels would continue to pop up. Right. And instead of just having these rigid channel by channel silos for departments, we wanted to instead create a connected capability. So last year we, we stood up with the blessing of executive leadership, our connected commerce and media capability. So it is a media capability that oversees brand media, retail media, DTC and owned media, social commerce and agentic commerce. And then there's an orchestration layer for media operations. And so I think what is what that structure has allowed us to do is have the conversations like we were speaking about before Minda, of where does investment go when the inventory could be construed as both commerce media and brand media. Right. But by preemptively breaking down those barriers, you're able to have a holistic conversation on what best serves the business and how do we ultimately achieve finding our consumer and showing up when they are ready to discover, to shop and to purchase.
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Ryan, what about you?
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So I'm going to pat myself on the back here a little bit in Bayer's in house media activation team. So in 2000, Bayer fully in house search social and digital media activation. We have an excellent team, won some awards with Ad Exchanger for best in house media operation. So going off to what Jason said, we do have an integrated national and retail team, but we take it a step further in house where the activation teams are working in their platforms, they're in programmatic, social and search holistically across national and retail media and we get all the benefits as Jason was talking about.
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C
Okay, so pivoting again, E commerce scale has been the biggest driver of retail media network success historically. But given digital media's ability to influence in store shopping, how does the off site opportunity impact how emerging retail media networks are evaluated? And that's a bit of a mouthful, but I assume you both have thoughts on this one, so I will start with you Ryan.
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So when we're looking at emerging retail media networks, it really goes down to where the, the Bayer shopper is. Fish. Where the fish are. So if the Bayer shopper is at, you know, a grocery store, Giant Eagle, even though they don't have a ton of on site traffic utilizing off site, utilizing their audiences, we're still able to reach that Giant Eagle shopper. So it's really kind of, as Jason said, democratized retail media from a retailer standpoint.
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C
Yeah, I also love that you brought up Giant Eagle because I'm from Pittsburgh so that was my like grocery store growing up. So love the Giant Eagle reference.
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Giant Eagle.
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Shout out Giant Eagle. Jason, what about you?
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Well, I think that this is again where role comes into play. Right. When you're evaluating both new rmn, emerging garments or just off site inventory in general, it's really important to understand what is the role of this offsite media. Right. So I think initially when we thought, okay, Amazon is opening up their DSP to more inventory, right? That means that our Amazon sales are going to get bigger, which is true. However, you need to make a determination on is that really the chief goal of running media that is off site through a platform like that, that has such an expansive O and O footprint, or do we need to recognize that inventory as true brand building where we of course will see a POS impact on platform, but there are sizable platform halo impacts as well across other channels. And so that understanding and as we, as we mature in this space and off site becomes more fundamental to holistic media planning, especially in commerce, I think that that conversation will naturally find it, find the answer for us. But it is a very interesting time where you, you know, a lot of people think I'm the to Ryan's Vizio comment. I'm running Vizio, so my Walmart sales are going to improve. Right. We just have to be realistic on where that inventory is showing up. Is the consumer translating that something that Walmart may own means I shop at Walmart or I still like to shop elsewhere.
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C
All right, well, I just realized we only have a few minutes left and I have so many more questions, but I'm going to try to run through some of the ones I really wanted to get to. I want to talk about. We've already touched on this a little bit, but I do want to come back to this idea of like in house versus agency when it, when it comes to handling these commitments. I mean, what are the pros and cons for each and you know, and how does this impact agencies? You know, I'm curious, as companies, as brands, how you're seeing this as. And Ryan, we can start with you.
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So as you know, retail media is so complicated inside of inside a brand because it touches so many aspects of the organization, the sales organization, the brand teams, the media teams, the RMM sales teams. It's just so many people that you're working with that having it all in house really just allows everyone to be on the same page and just, you know, I would say be more dynamic and fast with, you know, new opportunities and launching campaigns.
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C
Jason, what about you?
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Yeah, this is interesting. So Ryan and I actually differ on this topic. So I'm very pro agency. I believe that when you hire the right agency, they are an extension of your team. And so we think of them as thought partners, as business partners. And you know, this is what they do day in and day out. Right. A media agency, they know the latest trends that are happening. They can unlock the most favorable rates. There are betas that we can get access to. Right. So there, there. And then they, of course, oversee a number of verticals within clients so they can share. Hey, here's how benchmarking is happening in CPG and how we may be able to apply an apparel. So I think there are several advantages to staying, you know, with an agency, especially if you find the right ones that align with, with your objectives. Now, what I will say fundamentally needs to change is that agencies must shift away from pure delivery as the objective metric to outcomes. If you are focused on the effectiveness of the campaign instead of just deploying the campaign, I think those are the types of agencies that will win the next decade.
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C
Yeah, yeah. Hey, a little healthy disagreement isn't a bad thing, right? Well, I'm going to end on a happy note. When working with retail and media networks, how do you go about crafting mutually beneficial strategies, strategies that you feel like work for both parties? We'll start with you, Ryan.
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So the great thing about retail media is we're both aligned on, hopefully aligned on the incentives of driving more of your brand sales at that store. So it works in a flywheel where if your retail media is driving incremental sales and the brand teams have more budget to allocate towards retail media and you can invest it in that retail media network and it keeps on building off itself. So that's how I would end it.
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C
Jason.
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Yeah, no, I agree as well. Right. It has to be mutually beneficial and I think that the historical data will prove that. Are we heading in the right or wrong direction? Right. And so if we align on the upfront of the JVP, what the objectives are, what is the outcome, and if we're tracking towards that, then it should be mutually beneficial.
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C
Great. Well, that's all the time we have. Jason. Ryan, thank you so much for joining us today.