← Behind The Song: Classic Rock Chronicles
Behind The Song: Classic Rock Chronicles
Get Joe Cocker in the Rock Hall: Janda chats with Cocker alumni Deric Dyer
00:22:25
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- [00:00]
Janda
97.1Fm the Drive presents the behind the Song podcast, taking you deeper into classic rock's most timeless tunes. Here's your host, Janda.
- [00:12]
Derek Dyer
What would you do if I was like, how would you.
- [00:18]
Janda
I'm Janda and I'm joined by Derek Dyer, a longtime saxophonist and music director for the legendary, the late, great Joe Cocker. Hi, Derek.
- [00:29]
Derek Dyer
Well, Janda, it's a great pleasure to speak with you. Yeah, I was a blessed man for many years and worked with Joe.
- [00:36]
Janda
Well, you know, this all came about. I gotta give the backstory here. Joe Cocker is nominated, rightfully so, into the Rock and Roll hall of fame in 2025. It's about time. And Paul McCartney took it upon himself to write a letter of endorsement to the powers that be, basically giving his thumbs up to let's get Joe Cocker in the Rock and Roll hall of Fame. And of course, that made the rounds in the media. And recalling back to last year, McCartney did something like this for Foreigner as well, who were finally inducted. So, you know, anytime Paul McCartney makes a ringing endorsement of another artist, it makes people pay attention. And I certainly hope that's the case this year with this Rock and Roll hall of Fame nomination for Joe Cocker. So I posted it on Facebook. I basically gave my hot take on the whole thing. And that's how you found me, Derek. And then we started talking about Joe Cocker and his enormous contributions to music and to rock and roll and how very deserving he is of this honor.
- [01:50]
Derek Dyer
A friend of mine, Tony Call, send me your post. And I said, well, that's very interesting because somebody in the radio world is actually kind of presenting this in a way that they understand. So I'm thrilled that you're giving him this kind of attention.
- [02:09]
Janda
So as a person who has spent lots and lots of time in a professional and in a friendship way too, with Joe Cocker, I mean, this nomination is certainly no surprise to you, right?
- [02:22]
Derek Dyer
Oh, no. In fact, myself and many of Joe's alumni have been very upset that this has taken so long because of how important he is. He was transformational for rock and roll when he came out of particularly Woodstock. I mean, his take on rock and roll was really instrumental, essentially bringing the gospel world into rock and roll, using the voices of the as background singers. This guy was amazing. Changed so much.
- [03:01]
Janda
Joe Cocker has the kind of voice, like you mentioned, the church and gospel, and that if you close your eyes and you didn't know that Joe Cocker was born an Englishman, you would have a hard time believing that he wasn't a black gospel singer.
- [03:22]
Derek Dyer
He revered Ray Charles, right? Ray Charles was his hero. Now, Joe was a massive star through his whole career, no doubt, but it ebbed and flowed here in America. I played all over the world with Joe and we would always be doing 15, 20,000 seat halls, right? But he didn't really get the due here in America after probably you are so Beautiful was really stuck in, you know, the early 70s. You are so beautiful to me. So I'm thrilled that you're giving him this kind of attention gender.
- [04:09]
Janda
When you take someone like Joe Cocker, I mean, a lot of people think of him, and I pointed this out in my little Facebook rant, a lot of people think of him as strictly a covers artist because of the fact the big hit songs under his belt, those were covers. Feeling all right, Traffic cover, Unchained My Heart, Ray Charles, and then of course, the Beatles covers, which is how Paul McCartney certainly has a stage stake in all this, because Joe Cocker interpreted not one, but two Beatles songs and did it so beautifully. And they loved it. With a little help from my friends. And she came in through the bathroom window. And then you mentioned you are so beautiful, which could be Joe Cocker's signature song, Billy Preston cover. And then the letter, the box tops. So all of these songs are covers, and he had hits with all of them. And then you get to the 80s, the late 80s, and let's not forget another requirement or sort of criteria for Rock and Roll hall of Fame induction is cultural relevance. So here you have someone who has interpreted all of this material and had major hits with all of this material in an inimitable way. You know, his singing style was completely his own. And then he has this monster hit, Up Where We Belong, which was huge on the Officer and the Gentleman movie soundtrack and earned him a Grammy. We are talking over the decades, you know, the imprint that this artist has had. So, you know, it's not just about. And I want to be really clear, it's important that Paul McCartney gave him such a ringing endorsement. Because for my Money, if Paul McCartney has an opinion on someone's musical career and their eligibility for anything, it should carry weight because of the fact that he is Paul McCartney and he is so musical and he has done so much as a musician, both with the Beatles and as a solo.
- [06:33]
Derek Dyer
He's a big voice.
- [06:33]
Janda
He's a big voice and it does carry weight. But Joe Cocker earned this nomination, obviously of his own accord, and he rightfully deserves to be in there. Whether Paul McCartney endorsed him or not, he checks all the boxes.
- [06:50]
Derek Dyer
Well, there's many things that go along with Joe, which is very, very interesting. He was a very kind, gentle man. He'd be the first to say that he had his issues, which he wasn't shy about. He was a very matter of fact guy. Very bright, I would venture to say, not a cool kid, if you know what I mean, but just immensely respected within the industry. He was focused on getting his music done and getting. Getting out on tour and performing for his fans and stuff like that. He wasn't contrived. And then you also have to add in, you can leave your hat on, which was from another movie all the way through to late in his career. He had the biggest selling album, this was probably two or three years before he passed in Europe, called Fire it Up. He was still. A couple years before he passed, he was still doing 15, 20,000 seat holes outside of America. It was a massive star. Joe actually was a great writer. He didn't like to do it. We talked about it a lot. He and his original band member, Chris Stainton, I was lucky enough to work with as well. Genius, genius. Guy wrote a song called Woman to Woman back in the 70s. It was on one of Joe's later records. And that particular song is in the top 10 songs sampled ever in the history of music.
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Janda
Let me welcome everybody to the wild, wild west, a state that's untouchable, like Elliot Ness.
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Derek Dyer
The track of which a lot of rap guys really hung that hat on. One of which put together by Tupac Shakur and Dr. Dre, a massive hit. That's Joe and Chris's song Woman to Woman.
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Janda
When you hear Woman to Woman and then you hear the Dr. Dre, Tupac song. There you go, there you go.
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Derek Dyer
This is two English white guys from Sheffield, England, which was a mining. I mean, a brutal mining town. Poor kids that had virtually no future once they went to the mine to work, you know, Joe would talk about learning to be a gas fitter, which is really frightening. If you ever even saw Joe throw a football. Oh my God. He ain't. One way to go the other way. Putting in gas pipes was like, kind of scary, right? You know, but he was a funny guy, had a great sense of humor. He loved his bands, his musicians. I started with him when I was 21 years old in 1977. And he had the historians out there. Bobby Keys was the other sax player in the band. Keith Rich's best friend.
- [09:49]
Janda
Yeah.
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Derek Dyer
And Mickey Hopkins was the piano player.
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Janda
Oh, my gosh.
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Derek Dyer
And Yeah, I mean, I was working with these guys at 21 and then I left a while and I ended up joining Tina Turner's band in 86 and 87. I did a Break of the Rule world tour and we did a bunch of dates with Joe and we came my friendship with Joe and he asked me back. So I was there for six, seven years, longstanding professional relationship. And I really felt I was a friend as well. He was a wonderful guy.
- [10:25]
Janda
You and just about everybody else who has chimed in on this have accolades for Joe Cocker as a person. And it is sort of that very working class English thing that he never lost sight of. No matter the fact that he recorded 22 albums, was known across the world, won a Grammy, went to number one, sold out arenas, toured with Tina Turner, played at Woodstock. I mean, just on and on and on, but he never checked in the boxes.
- [10:58]
Derek Dyer
Another thing that people have no idea when the wall was coming down in Europe between all the Eastern Bloc countries, Russia and the rest of Europe. At the time, Michael Lang was Joe's manager, who was of Woodstock, of course. And Michael got a call asking if Joe would go to Berlin and play a free concert. So we were in Northern Europe at the time. So they got a plane, we left at 6 o'clock in the morning. We flew into Berlin. The town was, the city was. You couldn't get anywhere. We had police escorts to go to the venue. And we played a free concert in Berlin. The day the world came down. Wow. Joe took time and we had to get back to. I think we were in Copenhagen, maybe someplace like that, and play a concert that night. But Joe thought a moment in time, something for the people. Let's celebrate this. Let's go right.
- [11:57]
Janda
Recognizing that this was a monumental event in world history. To me, when I hear Joe Cocker sing a song, there's something that's so transcendent about it. And that thing that he had, naturally, I have to believe, is lost now on so many singers, you know, with the onset of, you know, auto tune and all that stuff, there is a natural transcendency in the way that he approached a song and could really interpret it. I'm sure that many times over the decades when he was performing, there wouldn't be a dry eye in the house. And it's that kind of thing that I think should be treasured and should be honored. Because frankly, I think it's the kind of singing that's going the way of the dodo bird these days. That's a true cry and shame. So it's super important for us to lift up those people who sang with such ease and could. Could transport us, you know, whether they had a hit with the song that they wrote or they didn't. The gift is the gift.
- [13:03]
Derek Dyer
Yeah. Yeah, it's. It's a gift. I love how the fact you focus on that, because this is the quandary for people like myself. I was kind of a little aft of the bubble, if, you know, and I'm a little younger than the guys that I was playing with at a young age, you know, so I. I've been a part of. But also. Also viewing what was happening. And the key element to it is this. Whether you're a player or you're a singer, there's a humanity in what you do, and it's a direct line to something that is. You can't touch, you can't really see, you can't really put your finger on it, but, you know, that it is magical. It's special, and that it touches something deep within you.
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Janda
Right.
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Derek Dyer
And. And with all the toys, it tends to take that away. Imperfection is perfection, and you've got to touch the inner soul of people, and that's what makes it special. And that's what Joe had. The guys that are kind of deciding what this would be in the hall, I'm hoping that they take all of that into account. Yeah, he was a gift to all of us, and I was just proud to say that I worked with him and called him a friend.
- [14:27]
Janda
Well, and I should point out, too, you know, this. This Paul McCartney endorsement is not the first time that another, you know, major, major artist has. Has thrown down for Joe Cocker because Billy Joel endorsed him back in 2014, you know, prior to Joe's passing.
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Derek Dyer
Yeah, I can give you a little background on that, actually, because we all stayed in touch with Michael Lang through the years, and Michael Lang and Billy Joel were very, very close. I think Michael Lang signed Billy Joel for his first record deal, and so they stayed very close through the years. And Michael and Billy were talking. When they heard that Joe wasn't well, they kept that very, very quiet. I didn't even know. A lot of us didn't know. Once Billy kind of figured out what was going on, that's when he wrote the letter to the hall saying, you know, Joe's not well, and please, you know, before he passes, why don't you guys do this? He's a guy that gets it. You know, I would say amazing work himself, you know.
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Janda
Right.
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Derek Dyer
You know, so. But to take this amount of time to not get it there. That's kind of crazy, you know?
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Janda
Yeah. He's been eligible since 1994, and I was born a little bit too late to see some of.
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Derek Dyer
You're never too late, Daniel. Never too late.
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Janda
Well, I would have loved to have been around in the Woodstock days and to have seen so much of what we call classic rock now happen as it was happening. But I take it up after the fact, and it's puzzling to me as a music fan, as a fan of rock and roll and to so many other fans, which is how I kind of come at everything, how some people don't get picked right away. I would say that Joe Cocker probably should have been picked, you know, at least a decade ago. I'm hoping that now the criteria that they have. I don't mean to criticize the Rock hall, but I must, because if we fail these legends and then also shepherd in, you know, people from other genres of music, while still calling it the Rock and Roll hall of Fame, then it's turning into something else. And I believe that when you put the term rock and roll in your title, it evokes not just a style of music, but also a sensibility and an attitude and a way of thinking and an approach to music that is raw and real and visceral way. And if. If Joe Cocker wasn't those things, then I don't know who was.
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Derek Dyer
I like your take on it. Yes. You've got these groups of people like you and I, and, you know, to hang on to the history of what this is and enjoy it, you know, through time. But it's very easy to get kind of just pushed off to the side where you don't. You're not in the public eye. You talk to many, many people. They know all of Joe's songs, most of them, but they don't know it's Joe which is really quite remarkable. The reason Joe maintained his success in the rest of the world is they don't kind of act it when they. When they have somebody that they follow as a fan, they stick with them unless you drop the ball. But Joe never did. He kept on supplying great, wonderful product, and his fans stayed with him. Janet, I reached out because you were one of the only voices I've heard stepping up and speaking for my friend.
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Janda
I feel that Paul McCartney did, you know, he did a good thing because he got attention for this. And then it got people that then in turn got people like me thinking about it. Well, wait a minute. Why isn't That's a good point. Why isn't Joe Cocker in the hall of Fame? And he's been eligible for decades now. And then that got me thinking about all that the man accomplished in his life. And sometimes when we're talking about Rock and Roll hall of Fame inductions, it will come down to, you know, cultural relevance and that kind of, you know, mysterious thing. Well, I don't know. I mean, I feel like we've outlined, you know, everything. Everything that he's done that to make him relevant and including, and you've mentioned several times, Michael Lange and Joe Cocker's relationship. And that is such a good point, Michael.
- [19:08]
Derek Dyer
And I know Joe would say this as well. Michael stuck with Joe through the really difficult times when Joe really was having a lot of, I would say, even emotional problems. He was a very delicate guy. He was very, very sensitive, very intuitive of the. Of the people around him. In some ways, I think that he just didn't really know how to deal with it.
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Janda
Right.
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Derek Dyer
And that made it easier to drink or do whatever. And I was told I would believe it to be true. You know, right at the end, he just said, God knows I have nothing to complain about.
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Janda
As. Even as McCartney said in the letter that he wrote to the hall of Fame, he pointed out, you know, that it's not like Joe Cocker ever advocated for himself while he was, you know.
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Derek Dyer
No, he wouldn't do that. No, he would never, never, never, never do that. He wouldn't do that because he would just see that as begging and that would. He would say, I don't care whether you want me or not. If you don't, you don't.
- [20:16]
Janda
Good for Paul McCartney for stepping up for Joe and in essence, you know, getting it, hopefully getting it done, you know, Joe Cocker getting it done with a little help from his friends. We're here doing our part to. To get the word out for Joe Cocker, too.
- [20:35]
Derek Dyer
Thank you, thank you, thank you. Because you. You obviously are one of those people in the music world that love music for music.
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Janda
Yeah.
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Derek Dyer
It became special because people did it because they loved it. Not really to make money.
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Janda
Right.
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Derek Dyer
You know, it became corporate, and that's when things kind of went a little wonky and, you know, the good ones survived. Joe, thank you. But you are standing above the rest. I'll leave it at that.
- [21:08]
Janda
Well, Derek, I will say the same for you. I can't tell you how much I appreciate you reaching out to me to have this chat and to give us the opportunity to hear from someone who knew Joe Cocker personally and worked with him so closely all those years. And I mean, I know you'll be rooting for him to get that induction and we all will too. And we're well. And I should mention that the fan vote is open. You can vote for Joe Cocker to be inducted from the Rock Halls website. You sign up and then you can, you can place a fan vote just about every day. So I would say to all the fans of Joe Cocker out there, go ahead and do that and place your votes and let's make our voices heard in all the ways that we know how.
- [22:00]
Derek Dyer
A little help from our friends.
- [22:02]
Janda
Exactly.
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Derek Dyer
Thanks so much, Jan.
- [22:04]
Janda
Thank you very much, Derek Dyer for joining us here on this bonus episode of the behind the Song podcast. Thank you very much for listening. Let's get Joe Cocker into the Rock and Roll hall of Fame. And on the way, much more classic rock and roll.