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The government's plan to restrict jury trials passed its first parliamentary hurdle this week. It is one measure, amongst many, in a Bill designed to reduce the huge backlog currently facing the Courts. Labour MP Karl Turner and Danny Shaw, a former adviser, join Isabel Hardman to discuss why they have each come to their own, different conclusion about the merits of the Bill.

For Danny, it is a pragmatic yet principled measure that will help mitigate an extreme situation. Karl, for his part, is – as you will hear – ferocious in his opposition, and argues that the evidence simply doesn't back it up. Amongst the debate though, there are moments of agreement – from the state of the justice system, to the government's handling of such a controversial measure.

Produced by Patrick Gibbons.

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