EP6 - We're In A Little Bit Over Our Head

Summary

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Podcast Summary: BETH'S DEAD – Episode 6

"We're In A Little Bit Over Our Head"

Release Date: November 27, 2025
Hosts: Monica Padman, Elizabeth Laime, Andy Rosen

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Episode Overview

In this gripping sixth episode, Monica, Elizabeth, and Andy dig deep into the bizarre, elaborate, and unsettling emails received from two key “characters” in their real-life podcaster mystery: Natasha and Anders. The trio reconstructs the intricate web woven by these personas, exposing behind-the-scenes details, emotional manipulation, and the uncomfortable truth about the blurred lines between fandom and obsession. The hosts reflect, joke, and psychoanalyze, but the deeper they go, the more unsettling the scale of the deception becomes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. All About Natasha and Anders: The “Absurdity Capsule”

(01:56 – 04:08)

• Monica frames the episode as a focused dive into Natasha and Anders—characters who, it turns out, are fabrications with outsized influence on the story.
• Elizabeth wanted this episode to “point out how kind of absurd some of it was,” contrasting it with the darker, more disturbing “Beth” saga.
• Andy reminisces about initially having a “fondness” for Natasha and Anders, only to be later unsettled by their significance.

2. Introduction & Escalation of Email Pattern

(04:08 – 08:40)

• Monica outlines Natasha’s email tactics: enthusiastic initial contact (including a “threesome email”), apologies for overstepping, and a seemingly heartfelt listener question about body image and parenting.
• Elizabeth notes, “She had already kind of endeared herself to us by flattering me,” (04:31) illuminating a manipulative pattern that repeats.
• Andy reflects on how the apologetic fan behavior seemed relatable at first, before it became off-putting.

  “There's something believable about it.” (05:24 – Andy)

3. The Performative Vulnerability and Emotional Hooks

(08:40 – 12:41)

• The hosts dissect Natasha’s “body image” email, noting both the odd inclusion of a photograph (later revealed to be a fake or stock image) and the escalating vulnerability—culminating in claims of childhood abuse.
• Elizabeth points out how each reply from Natasha deepens the emotional stakes:

  “Again with like, the poking you with emotion. Like, now I'm crying. You're such a good mom. In some ways, it is the same through line of Beth…” (12:41 – Elizabeth)

4. Analyzing Creepy Details & Catfish Red Flags

(13:10 – 17:39)

• Anders writes in, allegedly to defend Natasha’s family, spinning a story about her being “almost blind in one eye from a beating.” The implausibility and specificity raise red flags for the hosts.
• Andy wonders aloud about the logic, “Why is this guy writing in and is compelled to share that she's blind in one eye from a beating from her mom? It's such a wild detail…” (16:29)
• The trio jokes but also grows uneasy, realizing that “foreignness” (i.e., Norwegian identities) acted as a cover for bizarre behaviors that would have seemed suspect coming from Americans.

5. Meta-Reflections: The Psychology of the Catfisher

(17:39 – 22:13)

• Conversation pivots to theorizing about the motivations behind these personas.
• Monica speculates: “I think he wanted to take this couple further with me. Maybe it was going to be Anders who died by suicide or... But over time, there also was a dynamic between them that really gave me the ick, as you'll see.”
• The group discusses how the “catfisher's” ultimate goal appears to be creating chaos through manipulation and forging emotional connections—especially with Elizabeth.

6. Aftermath & Emotional Impact

(22:13 – 23:26 & 53:43 – end)

• Elizabeth admits to lingering discomfort and trauma:

  “It doesn't feel good to think there's someone who duped you out there who's obsessed with you. So that's part of my discomfort.” (21:46 – Elizabeth)

• Monica recognizes the risk in revisiting these stories:

  “We haven't talked that much about that on this show yet. That what you guys experienced was super traumatic and scary. And now we're doing this.” (22:12 – Monica)

• By episode’s end, the atmosphere is somber; what began as an exercise in “absurdity” intensifies the group’s unease about the lingering presence of the catfisher.

  “Are we opening up a can of worms that we shouldn’t? None of us really have the answer to this.” (22:35 – Monica)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Fan Parasocial Behavior

• Andy (07:17): “What if you just put this creative energy into something else good... You could be a novelist. Probably.”
• Elizabeth (12:41): “Again with like, the poking you with emotion. Like, now I'm crying. You're such a good mom.”

Red Flags and Manipulation

• Monica (17:01): “This show should really be called, like, Catfishing 101.”
• Elizabeth (17:39): “There also was a dynamic between them that really gave me the ick, as you'll see. Like, the fact that he's stepping in on her behalf…”

On Creepy Realizations

• Elizabeth (35:26): “It's really creepy knowing it's a man in his 60s that he's writing this…there are all these undertones of misogyny…the whole thing.”
• Monica (48:51): “The scope of it is deep. Like, it’s really layered what he’s done.”

Reflecting on the Impact

• Elizabeth (21:46): “I am. Like you just said, obsession and infatuation, it gets like the creep is creeping back in.”
• Monica (22:13): “What you guys experienced was super traumatic and scary. And now we're doing this.”

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Significant Timestamps

• 01:56 — Monica introduces Natasha and Anders as the focus of the episode.
• 04:31 — “She had already kind of endeared herself to us by flattering me.” (Elizabeth)
• 08:40 — Reading Natasha’s first “real” listener advice email.
• 13:10 — Elizabeth realizes the emotional hooks and patterns.
• 16:29 — Andy calls out the “blind in one eye” detail as a red flag.
• 17:39 — The team speculates about the catfisher's motivations; Monica reflects on “the ick.”
• 21:46 — Elizabeth admits to discomfort, creepiness of obsession.
• 22:35 — Monica questions whether they’re “opening up a can of worms” by reliving it.
• 35:26 — Discussion on misogyny and the unsettling knowledge that the emails are from an older man.
• 48:51 — Monica reflects: “The scope of it is deep. Like, it’s really layered what he’s done.”
• 53:43 — The hosts process the episode’s emotional weight, Andy and Monica expressing surprise at how creepy the material feels.

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Episode Tone & Final Thoughts

Throughout this episode, the hosts maintain a candid, conversational, and sometimes darkly comic tone as they oscillate between shock, retrospective analysis, and nervous laughter. What starts as an attempt to showcase the “wacky” and “absurd” aspects of fan-created personas quickly takes a darker turn, laying bare the emotional labor and vulnerability required of public figures navigating parasocial relationships. The trio ultimately acknowledges they are “in a little bit over our head,” staring into the abyss of obsession, manipulation, and the unsettling power of digital anonymity.

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For Next Time

The episode concludes with Monica suggesting that, due to lingering uncertainty and unanswered questions, there may be a need to “make contact” with the person behind Beth, Natasha, Anders, and the rest—leaving both the hosts and listeners on edge, and the mystery very much alive.

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If you want to hear it unfold in real time, or binge the rest, check out Beth's Dead on Patreon.

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Transcript

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[B]

Welcome to Beth's Dent. This is episode six. I'm Monica Padman and I'm here with Elizabeth Lame and Andy Rosen.

[A]

Hello.

[B]

Hey. Okay, last week we ended hearing that the detective made contact.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And got the emails to stop, which is great. So did that give you guys closure?

[A]

Kind of at the time, yeah, sort of.

[B]

Doesn't really sound like it.

[C]

We were still freaked out and we were still questioning any emails that came in. Could it still be this person? Like, we were still creeped out. It helped. But yeah.

[A]

I mean, to this day, like I have to say, doing this podcast, more questions forming even now. So I'm really hoping today will be like a palate cleanser.

[B]

You know, this is almost a capsule episode we're about to dive into on Natasha and Anders, two characters in this saga that we now know to be characters.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And you, Elizabeth, when we started this podcast, said that you really wanted to Devote some time to them because of how wacky and crazy it gets or why did you want to devote some time to them specifically?

[A]

Well, I think it will feel nice to point out how kind of absurd some of it was. Whereas when we were going through the best stuff, we really couldn't. And so I am curious to see, like your reaction, Andy, to some of them.

[C]

And they also loomed very large as fans just because they came in super hot with that threesome email.

[B]

Right.

[C]

That we talked about in maybe episode one.

[B]

Was that or something like that one of the episodes. Previous episodes.

[C]

And also. So I think from my perspective, I had this funny fondness of these characters.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And then for them to then be playing such a big role in the saga was surprising for me. And now I'm kind of like very excited to find out what was going on that I didn't even know with the crazy characters, if you will.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But yeah, that's where I'm at with.

[B]

It for our listeners. The clip we played really early on in the show about a writer in her who wanted to know about it.

[A]

Was I think her niece. Her sister in law seemed fixated on the kid's weight.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I talk about anti diet culture and body image issues a lot. So now knowing. I mean, it's a genius way in. In terms of having a. Now I have a question. And she had already kind of endeared herself to us by flattering me.

[B]

Yes. So that was Natasha who. Who wrote that question. And was that before or after the threesome email?

[A]

It was after. So there was the Valentine's message. And then I replied like, are you kidding?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Don't feel. Because she then followed up with apologies, which is a pattern of this person. Like, oh my gosh, I'm so embarrassed. I said that I should have never sent it. And then, you know, there are always these follow ups after the fact. Then she sent her official totally married question.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

But there's also something about it that seems sort of relatable in fandom too. Like if I hit you up and I'm a fan of yours, Monica, which we are. And you hit back. It's one. It's like, oh my God, I actually made contact. But then I'm in my head like, oh, I said some dumb thing to the. You know what I mean? Like it's. There's something believable about it.

[B]

I might need to revisit my email to you. I wonder. In the first email I ever sent. Hey, I'm a big fan. If I did that I might have.

[C]

No, your emails were class.

[A]

Yours are classic classy. You said in it. I'm just seeing in all caps. You are Oprah, which I love. I am the one who replied. Ha ha. Oh, Monica, will you marry me? Like, how thirsty was I?

[C]

You're so thirsty that like, if you get recognized, you're the one that's like, do you want a picture with me? That's definitely happened.

[A]

And they're like, no, I'm, I'm. I'm good. Thank you. No, come on, Come on, let's do it. For the gram.

[B]

For your gram. Oh my God, that is so funny. Okay, well, that makes me feel a little bit better. But it is something I would do is. Sorry to bother you. I know that was annoying. Like, just disregard it. And I think you're right. It is relatable. Okay, so what we've dived in so far with them is the threesome, then the apology, which is the pattern.

[C]

I'm starting to get this feeling about Natasha and all these people. Like, what if you just put this creative energy into something else good. The awe that I keep getting of like, why did you waste your energy doing this? You could have. You could be a novelist. Probably.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I love the idea that what if. Okay, wait, bear with me. This is a big, big leap. But it's like we think we know who it is, but what if that's someone that like Stephen King invented? Like that. This is a bigger. It's like a three steps out, like thing. Like, this is so much bigger and intricate.

[A]

I don't love that we're like flattering him. This. I know you can tell you're. Because you're a writer. It is good. I'm a writer. But like, we're poking some holes here too. And it's, it's. Let's not drag Stephen King into this.

[B]

Okay, I found it. Let me read the beginning of Natasha's official question.

[A]

Cool.

[B]

Hey, Elizabeth and Andy, I have a real question for you and, and the other listeners. I promise I'm not just drunkenly hitting on you again. As I mentioned before, I'm Norwegian and I've been both a professional dancer and dance teacher. Also, by the way, you love dance, which is.

[A]

Yes, I do.

[B]

Which is also known if you listen to the show. My American sister in law has a 15 year old daughter. Her mother is concerned that she's a little overweight and asked me to talk to her about it.

[A]

So that's the beginning of the email that you heard us discuss in episode one? But what we didn't talk about on the show was the end of this email, which we will definitely want to discuss.

[B]

Oh, okay. Let me keep going. I've attached a picture of yours truly just for the hell of it. I know what you guys look like, so it feels lopsided. It's a goofy image, but I'll be honest, I don't always look this nice either. That's the magic of professional photographers. And then there's a picture. It's of a woman like Andy. What?

[A]

I just showed Andy and Rob, and they both immediately started laughing because.

[B]

Because it's so fake.

[A]

It's so fake. How did I scan across this? And Andy, you too? Didn't I show you this?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, it's ridiculous. It's a woman. It almost looks like a woman on her wedding day jumping up, jumping up for joy.

[A]

Beautiful blonde locks curled into perfection.

[B]

Yeah, she's jump. It's one of those jumping pictures where. And her, like, legs are behind her. Very kind of standard blonde. Pretty.

[C]

I would say Norwegian.

[B]

Norwegian? Yep. Even the background, it's like she's at a pond or something.

[A]

But it looks. The water's like.

[B]

The water's not water.

[A]

It's fake.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. I just wish we could go back in time and revisit when you got this.

[C]

And were you like, oh, well, what did you respond?

[A]

Well, I want to see what time it was that she. So she emailed at 6 on March 22nd. I respond at 10pm on March 23rd. 23rd. Okay, good. Hi, Natasha. Oh, great question. I totally relate to this because growing up, we danced and there was so much pressure on us to be thin. I. You nailed it.

[C]

You got me.

[A]

I kind of shudder at the idea of any mother hounding her daughter over her weight. Unless it's a serious medical problem. More to come on a future episode of the podcast. Thank you for sending.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think that you. You're going to start to hear a difference between my responses to Natasha and my responses to Beth.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Where I went full, full force in.

[B]

Okay. Natasha, the next day, responds, very cool. I always look forward to new episodes. I literally just finished the new Totally Mommy. I guess my question is a sort of totally Mommy question, isn't it? I love you and Vanessa together also likeness.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Oh, and also this old guy's listening to Totally Mommy.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Oh, I just kind of really got the creeps.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. Just to clarify, my niece is. Oh, Lord. Just to clarify, my niece is definitely chubby.

[A]

God.

[B]

I mean. Oh, my God. Okay, I think is the word. It's not a medical issue at all. I think her mom just wants her to be popular and have attention from boys and all that. And my niece isn't involved in anything like dance where her weight matters. My mother was unkind, but. Right. My sister and I couldn't have kept competing if we got fat or something. I got a lot of shit over the years just because I'm very small. As a Norwegian, not great for dancers. I'm very sensitive over this mother daughter relationship. Obviously. One reason I don't think I mentioned I was crushing on you in my very first email is just that you seem to adore your kids. That honestly seems like heaven to me. When I was young, I tried everything I knew just to stop disappointing my mother, and I never did. I was always so sad. Great. I literally just started crying as I type about this. Anyway, now that I'm older, I see that she was a pretty bad person, so I can sort of ignore her opinion of me. But still, it's my mom, you know, I don't want anything like that for my niece. Anyway, I look forward to new episodes whether my question is involved or not. Keep up the good work. Again with like, the poking you with emotion. Like, now I'm crying. You're such a good mom. In some ways, it is the same through line of Beth in, like, getting to you in your, like.

[A]

Yeah. And I didn't respond to that. I think I was like, oh, I think I was getting the ick a little bit just from this fan. Not never in a million did I think, you know, it was a 60 something man.

[B]

Yeah. I think maybe because she led with the threesome. You guys are already. This person's a little out there.

[A]

What? Monica.

[B]

This person definitely has their feet planted on the ground.

[C]

And in reality, not in that photo, though.

[B]

True. Okay, so you didn't respond.

[A]

Just to be clear, I was the only one that they wanted. Natasha and Anders wanted a threesome just with me.

[B]

Oh. Yeah.

[A]

Not saying anything would be bad about Andy, but it's not out of the realm of.

[B]

It's not. It's not. It's not at all. It's not. But I do think that made you a little bit on higher alert of the types of communication you were gonna have.

[A]

Totally. Yes. Totally. Totally.

[B]

You probably had a little bit of a boundary knowing that she was in love with you a bit.

[A]

Yes. And to lead with that, I think, was a bold move.

[B]

It was. I mean, in which he then corrected with Beth.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

Cause who knows Maybe Natasha was the original person he was going for.

[A]

Oh, interesting. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

To see this whole thing, and I.

[A]

Didn'T take the bait. Yeah, I think that's right.

[C]

On Monica.

[B]

And he had to develop a new character. Yeah, he got to develop a new character.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, so you didn't respond then. Anders, hello. I'm a longtime listener to a few of your podcasts. I know that my wife, Natasha has written you a couple times regarding my brother's wife and an issue with their daughter. I don't mean for one couple to bombard you with messages, but I thought I should say something in defense of my sister in law. She's a genuinely caring person who is trying to spare her daughter some pain. That doesn't mean she's not making a mistake, but she's trying. Natasha talked about her own difficult relationship with her mother, but there's no comparison. My mother in law is barely human. And just one example, without glasses or contacts, Natasha is almost blind in one eye from a beating.

[C]

Oh, my God, I feel so bad that I just laugh about.

[A]

No, but it's.

[B]

Well, you laugh because it's made up.

[A]

It's pretty absurd, but.

[B]

And also, what a sentence. As just one example, without glasses or contacts, Natasha is almost blind in one eye from a beating. It's like so specific. Blind in one eye.

[A]

Yeah, well, you have to get specific. As a good writer, you're.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. The details. From a beating from her mother at age 11. To my amazement, not only does her mother not deny that kind of behavior on her part, but she doesn't apologize or even attempt to justify it. I don't know what the proper diagnosis is, but there's something broken or missing in her as a human being. There's a lesson for people. Pay attention to the children. You see, Norway isn't some backwards country. So if even one other adult had noticed what was going on with those girls, they would have been removed from their mother's care immediately. Sorry to be so bleak and thank you for your time. All the best, Anders.

[C]

But what was the point of that email that I feel like was kind of a misstep? Honestly, I'm surprised that didn't raise a red flag for you then, that, like, why is this guy writing in and is compelled to share that she's blind in one eye from a beating from her mom? It's such a wild detail, protecting the.

[B]

Person that Natasha was sort of on too.

[A]

I don't know. Like, he just wanted to get Anders in there.

[C]

Yeah, but what a weird way to.

[B]

Do it well, how would you have done it?

[A]

Yeah. I love that. Now this podcast has become about Andy, like, deciding. Yeah. Exactly. How he would have done this better.

[B]

What would everyone's plans have been if they were.

[A]

If they were?

[C]

This show should really be called, like, Catfishing 101. It's just, like.

[B]

It's a handbook. Oh, my God. But it's just.

[C]

That email strikes me as so odd.

[A]

Yeah, no, it is definitely odd. But he's actually. You'll see as time goes on, he's starting. And I think that. Monica, you were exactly right. I think he wanted to take this couple further with me. Maybe it was going to be Anders who died by suicide or. I don't know. But over time, there also was a dynamic between them that really gave me the ick, as you'll see. Like, the fact that he's stepping in on her behalf.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Things like this that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't even.

[B]

Like, that's annoying. Even if that's a real person. Like, why are you.

[A]

Now, can you imagine Auntie being like.

[B]

Oh, my God, that thing Elizabeth said. I know she has some issues. She's blind in one eye.

[A]

You know, they got a lot of leeway being foreign, like, being from Norway. A lot of the stuff that she was saying about, like, she's chubby, and if we got fat, I wouldn't. I would have. It would have turned me off from an American person immediately. But I'm like, well, they have cultural differences. Maybe in Norway, the husbands are constantly, like, stuffing. I don't know.

[B]

True. Oh, my God. Do you think if. If he had planned for it to be Natasha and Anders originally? I bet his goal was that Anders was gonna fall in love with you some, like, and break. It would break up their marriage.

[C]

Oh, smart. Very smart.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Like, wouldn't that be crazy?

[A]

Oh, my God. Baiting me. I'm kind of sad he didn't get.

[B]

A chance to kind of see that through.

[A]

I know. Kind of an emotional affair. Yes.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, God. This would have been a very different podcast because I would have felt like, a, bad for Natasha, who's already been through so much. Her mother was abusive and then b, really guilty to Andy.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Like, was he trying to break up our marriage? Right.

[C]

Yeah. I do feel pretty left out in this whole.

[A]

No, but he never.

[C]

He paid no mind to me. He just wanted you and me out of the picture.

[A]

No, but if I had come, if I, like, all of this blows up, and then Anders emails you and is like, your wife and I. I'm a fan.

[C]

Yeah. Now we're not married anymore because of your wife.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We've been having an emotional affair. And you go back through all these emails, like, if I weren't me and I had taken the bait and, like, got into emotional affair with this person.

[C]

That's what he should have done.

[B]

He wanted to. He wanted to.

[C]

No, I'm saying that would have been. I'm just agreeing with Monica.

[B]

It would have been a bigger, like, blow up of everyone's lives, which I think that has to be the goal of this person. I don't. I don't. I mean, we don't know.

[C]

He just wants the emotional connection with Elizabeth, I think, in any sort of way.

[A]

I do think that's more. You know, I know you guys are craving this, like, that he ruined our marriage too. But I think that that was more of, like, what a standard catfisher would do. Right. Like, there are people online who are falling in love with a woman who lives in Oklahoma who has cancer, and then they find out, oh, no, it's actually a guy in Poughkeepsie and whatever. I actually think the Beth version was more creative.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So.

[B]

Well, it got you. That one is the one that got you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

And I think if we're gonna psychoanalyze the guy, there is a. There is an obsession with you, obviously, and maybe a love. And there's so much. I don't think he went for that traditional romantic route because he's also dealing with. It seems like so much repression through all these characters as well, in this, like, weird way like, that he would never allow himself. I think he had to have these characters as this guise to express this, like, infatuation almost with you.

[B]

Yeah. Also, I wonder what the pieces of all of the characters that are real to him. Cause I bet, yeah, he's in here. He's in here.

[C]

My gut is that Natasha's the most authentically him. That's always been my thought. What do you think, Elizabeth? Or is it just all of them together, like, Voltron style?

[A]

I don't know. I don't know.

[C]

I feel Elizabeth's getting uncomfortable this episode.

[A]

Well, I am. Like you just said, obsession and infatuation, it gets like the creep is creeping back in. And we can laugh about that. I mean, it's easy to laugh at myself and read these and be like, what? But, you know, it's never. I don't know. It doesn't feel good to think there's someone who duped you out there who's obsessed with you. So that's part of my discomfort.

[B]

Yeah. It's scary.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We haven't talked that much about that on. On this show yet. That what you guys experienced was super traumatic and scary. And now we're doing this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we don't really know what we're doing. And are we opening up a can of worms that we shouldn't. None of us really have the answer to this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's scary.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So we are going to drudge on.

[A]

Let's see that next email.

[B]

Okay. Natasha then emails you. So you didn't respond to Anders.

[C]

I'm proud of you for that.

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[B]

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[B]

Okay, that was that was Friday. And then you hadn't responded over the weekend. So Monday you get one from Natasha. I just read the message my husband Anders sent you. I'm so sorry to keep bugging you, but I needed just to make a small correction. He's being a little dramatic by saying, my mother fucked up my eye by, quote, beating me. When I was growing up, my mother did this thing where I would have to get on my knees, then she would hold me by the hair and slap me. It was more. Jesus Christ. Oh, God. It was more usually humiliating than painful. I guess I was getting quote attitude when I was 11 because she was slapping me very hard that time. Oh, my God.

[C]

It's fucking crazy.

[B]

This is one of her long fingernails. Hit me in the eye and cut it. I don't even know what that part of the eye is called in Norwegian, so I can't tell you in English. Also, don't they speak English in Norway?

[A]

They speak Norwegian.

[B]

Yeah, that makes sense. Okay. Yeah, that adds up.

[A]

Okay, fact check that.

[B]

I don't even know what that part of the eye is called in Norwegian, so I can't tell you in English, but it was an accident. She was still hitting me, but she didn't mean to hurt my eye like that. Anyway, maybe I'm misunderstanding, but quote, beating sounds much more extreme to me than what my mother actually did. I feel lucky that she didn't do that stuff. Andrews is right that something is wrong with my mother. He calls her a sociopath a lot, but I'm not sure I know what that word exactly means.

[A]

Whoa.

[C]

Creepy.

[B]

This episode is getting so creepy. I'm itchy.

[A]

I thought this was gonna be a laugh riot when I know you were.

[B]

So excited to share this. Yeah.

[C]

This was really your idea, actually, which is kind of wild.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

Oh, my God. I don't know what that word exactly means. I get the idea though. I don't know if that's right though. One way or the other, she wasn't a great mother. Regards, Natasha.

[C]

So I think there's no call to action here. Like, it is. Do you respond or like it's weird. It's a weird follow up email.

[A]

There is a call to action though.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

What is it?

[A]

It's her being so dismissive of horrific abuse.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Would normally elicit a response from me. And I think this is when I started. I mean, I'm kind of embarrassed because I think even this relationship I got too deep into. I guess I responded a few times off the podcast. Like it has now moved. She sent that one question into the podcast. Now it feels like I'm supposed to be directing her to therapy or like, this is serious, like, mental health territory that I'm in over my head. And I think I was very aware of that. And so I opted just to not respond.

[B]

Yeah, smart, I think, but very smart. But of course, at the time, I bet in his head when he wrote this, there's no way she wouldn't respond to something this extreme and vulnerable and bad.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The fact that he said the sociopath thing is so. Yeah, fortuitous. Then you responded to Anders.

[A]

Oh, I did, yeah.

[B]

Oh, no, but it's okay. It's only one line. You say, thanks, Anders, for the clarification. Exclamation point. That's it. Oh, exclamation point.

[A]

Well, you don't know. I've gone on a real journey with exclamation point points in my emails. I think I was using them more back then, and it's a. It's a whole thing for us gals.

[B]

Oh, God, there's another picture.

[A]

Yes. So I. Well, read this and then we can discuss what we think happened here.

[B]

She says, like a week later from Natasha. Ugh, this is such a stupid point. But my husband pointed out that the pick. Oh, my God. But my husband pointed out that the pic I sent you the other day looked like a stock photo or whatever they're called. Like, I just found a pic of some random jumping girl.

[A]

Google random jumping girl.

[B]

So, not that you ever asked for a photo, but since I sent you one in the first place, here's a regular pic of me and my husband. I may look kind of gross, and Anders, his hair in a style I don't remember, but that's us. Happy Easter to you and your family.

[C]

Can I see that one?

[A]

They look very Norwegian. It's the same woman.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

It is the same woman.

[A]

Now, this is interesting going back in time, Andy, to when we stopped responding after we realized that one person was all of these people. You know, to Beth and whoever else's emails. I feel like that already happened here. And this was in March. Right? He was like, oh, no. She saw the stock photo and I've been caught.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But the truth is, I didn't even. Like, it wasn't even on my radar.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I didn't.

[C]

Right.

[A]

I didn't see that photo and go, that's not real. I was just like, oh, Norway.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I. I do think also not to psychoanalyze again, but. And I guess it unfortunately speaks to his skill as A character developer. But like she comes across as playing dumb, which I would expect from someone with her history and the abuse she suffered and like to downplay her intelligence to self deprecate to have her husband to run everything by her husband and need him to.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

You know, it's like you and me. Just kidding.

[B]

Yeah. Even this, like I may look kind of gross. Yeah, just those. Yeah.

[A]

She looks beautiful.

[B]

I mean she looks great in this picture. She looks great. She looks way more real. This looks real.

[C]

It looks super real. But it is also, it's wild to me that he has the thought to write that. Like I don't look great in. Right, right. Like it is. It's pretty bonkers. So creepy.

[B]

Oh my God. Okay. Elizabeth responds. Haha. Thank you. You look like a very happy couple. Happy Easter. You're keeping it quick. You're not, you're really not getting sucked in. I am impressed.

[A]

Thanks.

[B]

Then again, from Natasha, a month later. Hello Elizabeth, how are you? Just for a reminder, I'm the Norwegian dancer who wrote you with a question about my sister in law coming to me to talk to her daughter about losing weight. Well, I had to make a decision. I thought about that issue as long as I could and I came to a point I feel really good about. If my husband were here right now to check my English, I would try to explain what I decided. My point is that I wouldn't be bothered if you never answered to my question. I would certainly like to hear what you have to say. So I know if I should start patting my own back or considering another option. But that's for future decisions about my own kids or whatever. For good or bad, I've made my decision about my niece. Keep up the good work.

[C]

And so we, at this point, I guess we hadn't talked about it on the show yet.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so he's starting to panic a little bit because again, like maybe they figured it out. So she's not even going to read the question.

[A]

Right.

[C]

It's interesting because that desperation to me feels more like, oh, he really does crave this control. He wants to hear it on the show.

[B]

Well also that.

[C]

Which is interesting.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I responded to her, I said, oh, wow, happy to hear you're feeling good about this. I think it's such a great topic that I'd still like to discuss if that's okay with you. And I mean it is a great topic that I would want to speak to because I am really like passionate about, you know, kind of stopping the cycle of diet culture at our generation and not spreading it to our children. So yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Okay. That was Tuesday. Wednesday. Natasha hi Elizabeth. Yes, I definitely still like to hear your opinions on the issue. I'm sure there are aspects I'm not considering, especially since I'm not a parent yet and as I've said before, didn't have a good role model for considerate mothering. Now that I've bugged my husband into editing my English, I'll try to explain the conclusion I came to about whether or not a mother should tell her child to lose weight. My feeling is that as long as she's not getting dangerously unhealthy, my niece should be able to choose a standard for her own body. If she doesn't mind being a little chubby, then it should be fine. In my experience, kids are mean enough to probably make her feel bad about her body without any help from her mom.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I think the idea of having one quote standard, especially for girls, is really misguided. My sister in law, for example, has a beautiful curvy figure and but she would be very heavy for a dancer or athlete. As an unrelated point, I know she doesn't want her daughter to miss out on romantic attention. I got a lot of attention from boys before I was married. I thought they cared about the fact that I was a dancer, what I've devoted my life to. In hindsight, I see that most of them only cared about the fact that I had a dancer's body, so that's the kind of attention I could have done without. Also, I wasn't all that popular in school, even though I was in great shape because I was pretty quiet and was too busy with dance to have a social life. My niece, on the other hand, is bubbly and fun, so I think she'll be just fine socially, even at her current weight if she decides to get in better shape. I totally support that. At the moment though, I feel that she should be supported with whatever body type she wants to have unless it becomes a health problem. I'm sorry to talk so much. I'm really eager to hear what you guys think about the issue. Am I missing something? If I remember correctly, it sounds like you had to think about body image issues when you were younger. And I'm sure you have to after two pregnancies. I've already told you I think. Well, I've already told you I think you're sexy as hell, so you should feel pretty good. Anyway, I'd love to hear your thoughts if you ever get around to it. Best wishes.

[A]

It's really creepy knowing it's a man in his 60s that he's writing this. And again, I think I gave a lot of leeway to it being a foreign woman who had been through quite a bit. But there are all these, like, undertones of misogyny with the weight stuff. And, like, even her saying, like, I'm sure her friends will shame her.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Like, it's weird reading this and knowing it's coming through this, like, 60 something, conservative male gaze.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And also with Beth and the, like, slut shaming stuff of it all.

[B]

It's just this very misogynistic. Yes, the whole thing. Yeah. Okay, then, Natasha again. Elizabeth and Andy, thank you so much for the reply to my question about my niece's weight. Okay, so.

[A]

Hey, Andy.

[C]

Finally.

[B]

It might seem crazy just how much I appreciate it. So this. Obviously you've talked about it on the show now. Yeah, it might seem crazy just how much I appreciate it, especially since my question wasn't even about me. But I'll try to explain. My husband and I are planning on trying for a family in the next couple years, probably after we go back to Europe. So I've thought a lot about my own upbringing. I'm terrified that I'll be a terrible mother no matter. I try because that's what I saw in my own childhood. I become especially concerned when I disagree with other mothers I know, like, on this issue. So it was very gratifying to not only have you agree with my conclusion, but explain it much better than I ever could. It gives me hope that not all of my motherly instincts are wrong. Elizabeth, I didn't think my crush on you could grow anymore, but it has. If there's ever anything I can help you with, don't hesitate to ask. Best wishes, Natasha. And then in parentheses and Anders.

[A]

So strange.

[B]

Okay, you respond.

[A]

Oh, yeah. I say, natasha, thank you for sending in. Exclamation point was a super interesting convo to have with Andy. Exclamation point.

[B]

That's it, though.

[A]

Yeah. You can tell I'm a little more guarded.

[B]

You are. Okay, one more thing from Natasha. Oh, God. Elizabeth, I realized as soon as I sent that message yesterday that you were probably looking for comfort rather than a logical defense of the concept of the afterlife. Huh? Oh, that was June. Maybe she just heard something on the.

[A]

Podcast and I think so. I think she's speaking to something. Oh, God. Wait, what date is that one?

[B]

This is June 10th.

[A]

Okay, there's one from Natasha that starts with. This part is actually Natasha's husband.

[B]

Oh, yeah. That's for. Yeah, yeah. This is. Oh my God. You get an email. Very long email. This part is actually Natasha's husband. Usually she writes her own messages and I only proofread them this time because there are big ideas here. She didn't want to risk that. So she rattled this off very quickly in Norwegian while she was doing her morning workout. And I did my best to translate it. If there are obvious problems here, they're likely my doing. Natasha does know her philosophy very well, but I had rush through my translation so as to not be late for work. Hello, Elizabeth. In response to your question about the possibility of an afterlife and the meaning of this one, I believe there are answers. Oh, and this will be interesting.

[A]

Yeah, and so I must. Religion I must have talked about. You know, I'm constantly talking or thinking about afterlife and purpose of this life and all of that jazz. So I must have mentioned that we.

[B]

Don'T know what we're saying yet about the person, but we'll say there's reason for us to believe that this man does know a lot about religion.

[A]

Yes, that's fair.

[B]

Okay, so then. This is interesting. No wonder it's so long. Hello, Elizabeth. In response to your question about the possibility of an afterlife and the meaning of this one, I believe there are answers even without religion. I know that I've previously identified myself as Christian, but I'm not going to be repeating religious dogma. I don't believe in an afterlife or God because I'm Christian. Like most Scandinavians, my husband and I were both raised completely without religion. I'm Christian because I first came to the conclusion that the existence of an afterlife and God seemed likely. I'm sorry that this message will likely run a bit long, but you are asking the most important questions in human history. Also, keep in mind that I'm badly summarizing ideas from a variety of philosophers and theologians. So these aren't just the theories of some crackpot dancer. Let me first say that I personally know at least a dozen people who have claimed near death experiences or some form of contact with deceased loved ones. I've never had either, and I'm normally somewhat skeptical about such things. So that's not the argument I'll be relying upon. Many of those people I trust completely in every other situation though, so I'm certainly not dismissing their claims. To start requires a single leap of faith. Not at all of the religious kind. Every worldview requires faith in some claim. For example, that accurately understanding anything about the universe is even possible given the limits of our Senses and brains, or that there even is an external world rather than some kind of hallucination. These kinds of things are beyond science's ability to verify. The concept that requires faith in my argument is that, for example, the Holocaust was evil as opposed to something that simply happened. Morality is completely beyond the reach of quantifiable science.

[A]

Science, Whoa.

[B]

That should be the tagline for this.

[A]

Whole oh my God, shouldn't it?

[B]

Science can explore how we experience morality or how our perceptions can be altered, but it absolutely cannot say whether something is good or evil, only whether or not things are true.

[A]

Oh my God. Are you freaking out?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It is true that evolution has a reason for implanting within us a moral sense, and that many things humans deem right will allow more people to survive and therefore pass on their genes. But there are many things that do not fit that, such as child molestation or slavery, yet we still consider them evil. Evolution does not care about pain and suffering. In terms of evolution, the only question is, am I capable of passing along my genes to children who can do the same? Anything that doesn't affect that is irrelevant to natural selection. There are behaviors that are beneficial when a majority of humans do them, but nothing is right or wrong. But I believe that right and wrong are as real as anything. If that is the case, there is already something outside of testable science in existence. Also, our ability to sense such a thing must come from somewhere other than chaotic natural selection. If one is driving along and sees a series of rocks spelling out danger cliff ahead, one can decide whether somebody is responsible for such a sign, or if the rocks randomly fell to resemble such a message. Not at all likely, but hypothetically possible. What a person cannot do, though, is feel the rocks fell that way by chance and still expect the message to reflect reality. Similarly, for us to assume our ability to sense right from wrong points to a real thing. Such a sense must come from some other source than the unthinking random forces of the universe. And a force that has intentions that affected the nature of mankind and that is concerned with matters of right and wrong, begins to seem very much like some kind of supreme being or God, doesn't it? If you have followed the argument so far, we can go on to explore the likelihood of some sort of afterlife. If right and wrong exist at all, the Supreme Being must be subject to them as well. While we can imagine many features of the universe being different, good and evil are not interchangeable any more than it's possible that 2, 2, 5. Even if you ascribe absolute power to this being, as many religions do, such a being still cannot do literal nonsense, so this being cannot have decided what is right or wrong and so must be governed by them. Therefore, a being or force that created us owes us justice and fairness. This life is clearly not always just and fair, and justice inconsistently applied is not justice at all. So there must be some sort of existence other than this one in order for this being to give us all justice. An existence where our actions in the present world have fair consequences. Keep in mind that even as a Christian, I'm not talking about heaven and hell, as many people seem to conceive of them. No eternal torture or unchanging reward beyond giving us justice for our actions in this world. I have no real idea what the next existence is like. I suspect that given our physical brains, we have a finite amount of computing power. Even if we were shown another existence, we would not understand it, at least not in our present form. We must remain in major ways who we are, though, because there is no justice in applying consequences to one being for the actions of another. As I don't know what the next world will be like, I don't know that I can fully say what the purposes of this life are other than to say that doing good is the the single most important thing. Perhaps the skills and knowledge we acquire here will be useful, but who knows? I don't even know whether or not we will be reunited with our loved ones. But I sincerely hope that is the case. My sister, my only sibling and best friend, died of leukemia at age 21. Of course, I have moments of doubt and worry that I will never see my sister again. I cannot speak for you, but in my case, I have to recognize that this feeling comes from fear and and not from any new piece of evidence making me rethink the odds. By the same token, I sometimes fear that something terrible will happen to my husband or future children. There is no rational reason to think so. Our minds sometimes just naturally go to the things that we find most horrible. Thankfully, in this case, reality is what it is, regardless of how we feel. That's one reason I reject the notion that an afterlife is, quote, too good to be true. Just because loving relationships or health are so good doesn't prove that I don't have these things. I imagine that you've heard all of these ideas before. There are many approaches to your question other than the one I have used here, but this is the one that helped fundamentally change my worldview. If you have any follow up questions, I'd be happy to try answering them. Whatever conclusions you come to, I hope that doubt and fear, though they never entirely go away, stop being a problem for you. I think you deserve that much. Regards, Natasha.

[A]

I have so much to say. Do you have something to say?

[C]

Yeah. I mean, right out the gate. What's so wild about this is he does want this to be coming from Natasha. Okay. But he put this shield on that Anders is gonna write it. And pardon my translation in English, because this isn't going to sound like Natasha's voice, because guess what you were talking about. Let's just make up a subject. Oh, I heard you were talking about bowling. Oh, shit. I'm a professional bowler and I need to weigh in on this because this is my thing.

[B]

This is him. This is the first time he let himself, but interesting.

[C]

He wants it to be known as Natasha, but he has to have this cover. Like, they can't sniff out that I'm a professional. Whatever.

[B]

But he really needed you to hear this.

[A]

But if I had, I mean, I even felt like, oh, we're giving him. This is like his manifesto and we're giving him a platform a hundred percent. Like the thing that I find really funny that maybe you guys will appreciate. I remember getting this, and at this point I was like, these people. And this is so long. I mean, I got through, like, maybe the first eighth of it and hit the eject button.

[C]

I would have never read this whole email.

[A]

I did not read the whole email there. I did not read this whole email in any way, shape or form. And I replied, thank you, Natasha. I really appreciate this. Very interesting perspective. Yeah, but like, I'm obsessed with afterlife stuff. And if I had read it, like, even getting to the. The Holocaust was evil as opposed to something that simply happened, like all of that stuff. I mean, if I had read it, I think I would have thought. This doesn't sound like Natasha even translating as Anders. I think maybe this would have been a bit of a red flag for me. But who's to say? I mean, at this point, who knows? But wow, that's crazy to hear out loud.

[C]

But like, the him dreaming up of these shields, that's pretty clever to do. And that raises other questions for me too, of like, wow, this really maybe isn't your first rodeo. Do you know what I mean? Like, fucking with people like this, right? Because, like, that seems like such a clever safety net to put in for yourself.

[A]

Well, yes. I mean, you're still. You're like, so fixated on how clever he is.

[C]

No, but I think that's the wrong word. And I know you're getting, like, a little frustrated about that, but I think it is. It's just interesting. Getting in the head sort of. And I haven't seen these details or heard these details before, and I'm just like. It's. It's just. It's all crazy.

[B]

The scope of it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Is deep. Like, it's really layered what he's done.

[A]

Yeah. I feel like he showed his cards a little here in a way that feels a little sloppy to me, but.

[B]

I do feel like we did just read his manifesto. When I was reading it, I was like, this feels like something after someone does something really bad and then they leave it.

[A]

Yeah, totally. And I. I also find it really interesting that it's all about right and wrong, and also it's all about there being justice in this lifetime, which maybe.

[B]

This is me being such a fool. I think his sister died of leukemia.

[C]

Oh, interesting.

[B]

I feel like this is him. Him. And then he fixes it a little at the very end, bringing it back to Natasha. But I do.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Natasha's going from, like, I don't know the word for eye or, like, retina to. And I couldn't possibly figure it out by quickly, you know, whatever. And, like. Sorry. I'm just like. I don't know. My husband has to this, like, insanely.

[B]

I mean, philosophically deaf.

[A]

Like, you know, it's funny.

[C]

But Anders is translating it, though.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't forget that part. Okay, so then you just said what you said, the one little line, and then another email. Elizabeth, I realized as soon as I sent that message yesterday that you were probably looking for comfort rather than a logical defense of the concept of the afterlife. I suppose I've just spent too much time debating philosophy. And wouldn't you know, I left out the most important part of my argument, the part that may actually be what you're looking for. I blame it on the fact that I was starting to run out of breath, but that's no excuse.

[C]

Oh, right.

[B]

She was working on the treadmill or whatever.

[C]

That's right. Right. But in Norway, they're like wooden treadmills. They're not. It's like a manual treadmill.

[B]

Yeah. Also, can you imagine being on, like, the treadmill, saying, what? Oh, my God. Okay. I said I didn't know if we would be reunited with our loved ones in the afterlife, but I only meant that in the literal sense, that nobody knows that for certain. I should have stressed that I believe that there will be such a reunion I believe it as strongly as I believe that you're a real person and not just a of audio and visual cues coming from my computer. Again, that's not merely because I'm Christian. If you followed my argument that morality is real and points to some kind of God, and those things together point to some kind of afterlife, there is one step further. Virtually every moral code ever has said that loving those close to us is not only a good thing, but the absolute best thing. It just doesn't make sense that we could spend our lives cultivating that only to be forever separated from the objects of our love. So, yes, I absolutely believe that while we can't say much else about the next life, you will be reunited with your friends and family.

[A]

Okay, thank you. Thank you.

[B]

Okay then, Anders. A sincere apology from Anders. Elizabeth.

[A]

Oh, no, dude.

[B]

Minutes ago, I responded to another listener's post in response to the question of an afterlife. I'm afraid I sounded unduly aggressive, so I would not be offended if you don't post it. Frankly, though, as someone who works in a scientific field, I've grown very weary of people trying to use science to answer ethical or philosophical questions. That works about as well as using Beethoven's fifth to fix your plumbing. And in America, I've been shocked at the number of people who believe that science has disproven religion or is inherently religion's enemy. I can't fathom the number of potential scientists who have kept away from the field because they're constantly told it's antithetical to their worldview. Or how many atheists stop asking existential questions because they assume science has answered them? It hasn't and can't. A halfway decent scientist knows what questions their discipline can or can't answer. Anyhow, I really don't want to start a fight on your site, so feel free to trash my response. Regards, Anders. I wonder who he was responding to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow. Okay, now that your response of thank you, Natasha. I really appreciate this very interesting perspective. That was Monday, June 13th. So a month earlier is when we got Beth's first email. Oh, whoa. That was a doozy.

[A]

Yeah, that didn't.

[C]

You literally thought this was gonna be, like, the fun.

[B]

I think it's really fun.

[C]

It's the exact opposite.

[A]

It really is. Yeah.

[B]

I feel very creeped out.

[A]

I thought this was gonna be. Yeah. Not. Not what it was.

[C]

I'm glad that we did dive into these, though, because I think I gave me a better perspective. This is not where I thought we would land after reading all this at.

[A]

All even talking about this and me even saying this, I'm scared to even vocalize that because I fear that it's a challenge for someone to go, we.

[B]

Are in a little bit over our head. We at Armchair Expert have never done a show like this. You guys haven't done any. Like, we don't. We could be fucking up. Like, I don't know, we could be messing with something that shouldn't be messed with. I don't know.

[A]

It's interesting because we have so much time now has separated us in this, but knowing that he's still out there and we're talking about it is.

[C]

But are we putting this out there? Yeah.

[B]

I mean, look, I think, I don't know that you guys are going to love this, but so many questions have come up over these past episodes we've been recording and I really, I think it's important for you to have answers. So I really, I think we need to make contact with him.

[C]

If you don't want to wait for more Beth's Dead, you can binge the entire series today at patreon.com bethsdead where all 10 episodes are available ad free right now. Beth's Dead is presented by Armchair experts Monica Padman and Nobody's Listening Right. It is produced and edited by Andy Rosen, Elizabeth Lame and Monica Padman. Additional engineering by Rob Hollis, music and sound by Andy Rosenberg.

[B]

If you love chilling mysteries, unsolved cases and a touch of mom style humor.

[A]

Moms and Mysteries is the podcast you've been searching for.

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Hey guys, I'm Mandy.

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And I'm Melissa. Join us every Tuesday for Moms and Mysteries, your gateway to gripping, well researched true crime stories.

[B]

Each week we deep dive into a variety of mind boggling cases as we.

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Shed light on everything from heists to whodunits. We're your go to podcast for mysteries.

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With a motherly touch.

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Subscribe now to Moms and Mysteries. Wherever you get your podcast.