Andy Rosen (1:35)

Foreign.

Monica Padman (1:41)

Welcome to BETH'S DEAD Episode 7. I'm Monica Padman and I'm here per usual with Elizabeth and Andy.

Evita March (1:47)

Hello.

Monica Padman (1:48)

Hello. And last week we discussed maybe needing to make contact with this person, the professor. But I will say before we do that, I wanted to kind of make sure we were doing all of our due diligence. So today's episode is going to be in two parts.

Elizabeth Lame (2:07)

Okay.

Monica Padman (2:07)

First, we're going to talk to a catfishing expert.

Elizabeth Lame (2:11)

Oh.

Monica Padman (2:12)

Which I think is important for us to do to answer some of the questions we have. Especially like what type of person this man is. You know, if there's a. I don't know. She'll have all the answers for us. Hopefully.

Andy Rosen (2:26)

Creepy guy.

Monica Padman (2:27)

Yeah, the type is creepy. And then the second half. I did reach out without your permission.

Monica Padman (2:38)

I did reach out to a private investigator.

Elizabeth Lame (2:41)

Whoa, Monica.

Monica Padman (2:43)

Well, I just felt like we really need to check our boxes. Cross Our T's, dot our I's, make sure we're really doing this appropriately if we're gonna make contact.

Elizabeth Lame (2:54)

Yeah, I love it.

Andy Rosen (2:55)

Did they start?

Monica Padman (2:57)

Yes. So the second part of this, we're going to discuss what she found.

Andy Rosen (3:02)

Oh, my God.

Elizabeth Lame (3:03)

Oh, my God.

Monica Padman (3:04)

And then we can sort of make an informed decision about our next steps. Reaching out. But first.

Monica Padman (3:12)

But first, let's talk to our catfishing expert. She's an associate professor and her name is Evita March.

Elizabeth Lame (3:18)

Let's do it.

Monica Padman (3:22)

We are very, very grateful to have you.

Evita March (3:25)

Good morning, by the way, or good afternoon.

Monica Padman (3:26)

I wonder, maybe, should we start with maybe you just telling us a little bit of, like, your background?

Evita March (3:32)

My name is Evita March. I'm an associate professor of psychology at Federation University Australia. My research expertise is in cyberpsychology. So the interaction of humans and technology, in particular, how humans behave online. So I'm. I've always been interested in both pro social and antisocial behavior. But of course, what is, I guess, more interesting is why people. Why people behave antisocially online. And so I've explored a range of different antisocial online behavior, including trollings, cyberbullying selfies, and intimate partner cyber stalking. Cyber stalking in general, this was a starting interest of catfishing. Also, I'm interested in the individual or the psychology behind it, so the individual differences and personality traits that predict why people engage in this behavior.

Elizabeth Lame (4:25)

Oh, my gosh. We could not have found a more perfect human being to speak to. I don't know if you know the history of why we're reaching out, but Andy and I had an experience that we've been taking Monica on this journey of. I guess the word is catfishing. You probably have a more nuanced take on it. And we wanted to talk to you about the type of person who does this and what your experience is. And we just have so many questions.

Monica Padman (4:55)

Yeah, why don't you guys walk her through a little bit of, like, the background of what happened?

Andy Rosen (4:59)

Yeah, the quick, down and dirty version.

Elizabeth Lame (5:02)

Okay. So we had a podcast, this was back in 2015, where people would write in with their questions and he and I would give our unqualified advice. And I maybe naively was responding to people off the podcast and in some cases, developing relationships with especially young women who maybe seemed like they didn't have, like, a support system. Over time, I developed pretty strong relationships with a couple of these women. Like, I'm the big sister.

Monica Padman (5:35)

And then that had written in.

Elizabeth Lame (5:37)

Yes, they had written in. And then also just via Email. We were communicating and on our comments section, and then I got a message one day that one of them had died by suicide. And I was devastated. And then it started to. The brother started to message me as though I.

Elizabeth Lame (5:56)

Maybe had some part in kind of misleading her, like asking if I was a therapist of some sort. And during this, a friend of mine realized this was really weird, that this brother was reaching out to me. Long story short, we realized that one person was posing as eight of these characters who had been taking up a ton of my time and energy. They all had very rich lives. Like, one was a Norwegian couple. You know, it's kind of pretty wild. And wow. Yeah. So then we kind of pinpointed who we think it is. And.

Elizabeth Lame (6:38)

So at this stage in the process, we're, like, going to be reaching out to this person and wanted to talk to you about what we're potentially getting into.

Elizabeth Lame (6:51)

I have a lot of safety questions and also just curiosity about. Because the person that we've, you know, researched is a professional in academia, has a family.

Evita March (7:07)

Extraordinary. I mean, it is. I don't know whether it is reassuring to hear, like, it's not. That sounds like a rather actual typical experience, but I'm, at the same time, I'm really personally sorry to hear that you had to go through that, particularly then the insinuations that you perhaps had some responsibility. That must have been incredibly challenging and difficult to hear. So I'm sorry for your experience.

Elizabeth Lame (7:34)

Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate that. Is this typically in a romantic relationship.

Evita March (7:39)

I think the difficulty. We've really come to see catfishing as synonymous with, like, a financial scam. The typical idea is seeing they build this relationship and then they start asking for money. And so they're reliant on having built that relationship. So the trust is there. So when they ask for the money, like, it's validating. And then over time, like, there are reports of people who have given hundreds of thousands of dollars to people who have catfished them. But what I find more and more curious is that money is not always the goal. There are quite a few instances where, like, you're aware the goal is far more tricky to pinpoint exactly why they are doing this and why they're engaging in this. Now I feel I probably need to take a step back and even start with, like, the meta definition of how do we explore, like, how do we define catfishing and where we go from there? So this was important to us as researchers who were exploring this activity is to explore something. We have to define it. So Broadly, catfishing fits into online deception. And online deception has four categories. Firstly, trolling. So intentionally deceiving and upsetting people online. Then there's category deception. This is considered rather innocuous. Category deception could be like creating an online dating profile and clicking that your average weight rather than, you know, I have a few more pounds. So in addition to category deception, there's also impersonation. This is pretending to be somebody else's assuming another identity. So impersonation a bit more insidious. Lastly, identity concealment. So concealing a part of your identity, saying perhaps that you're not a smoker. Catfishing fit the definition of impersonation. Pretending to be somebody else online for the goal of either their own amusement or fine or fraud. Now, in saying that more and more cases are coming out of romance, catfishing in general, catfishing really is dependent on creating that relationship with a target or victim survivor with the intent of deceiving them to exploit them in some way. Also, just as a complete side note, and might be of interest where the term catfishing comes from. Yeah, right.

Monica Padman (10:02)

So I want to know.

Evita March (10:03)

So years ago, cod was shipped from Alaska to China, but when it arrived at China, it was quite lifeless and mushy in the barrels. And so they put catfish in the barrels with cod so the catfish would chase the cod the entire time. So the sentiment is like the same. The catfisher is constantly keeping you alert and on the go and almost like just active and trying to figure things out, like the whole time.

Evita March (10:31)

And I guess to normalize this as well. How many people experience this? They fall victim to catfishes. In fact, there was one calculation that in Australia in 2020, it cost, I think these scans from catfishes was about $37 million that people lost to this. Like, it's massive. But it's more than that. It's also just the psychological outcomes when you realize or people who then find out that they have experienced or been a victim survivor of catfishing. I mean, unsurprisingly, we see a range of psychological outcomes like depression, anxiety symptoms consistent with PT or post traumatic stress disorder, all the way to then increase of suicidal ideation, the feeling of shame. And that is really interesting to me because it's shame that they experience this. They should have known better. But it's the intent of the catfisher that you don't know better.

Elizabeth Lame (11:31)

One of my questions for you is who are the idiots who fall for this sort of thing? I'm just.

Elizabeth Lame (11:37)

So. I don't know if there's an element of shame for Me? No. There's this whole experience recording this podcast. I'm going, how did I not see it? How did I not know? You know, it's really wild looking back on it and thinking this sort of thing couldn't happen to me. But it sure did.

Monica Padman (11:57)

So when there's not a financial. Because in, in, in our case, in Elizabeth and Andy's case, it was not for financial gain and in fact the only amount of money exchanged was actually financial. The other way. This person sent some money over also obviously as like some bait. I, I assume to like keep them as you say, like on the hook. But like I just can't for the life of me, other than financial gain, understand what they're getting.

Evita March (12:31)

So let's consider I guess three different scenarios of catfishing. The first, financial gain in that their gain is that I'm going to exploit this person financially. They still have to establish that relationship. They still may build that fake identity or impersonate another person, steal an identity, but they still catfish them. But the end goal is money. The second, and this is, I guess the really bleak cases as well, is there are a number of cases of catfishing in early 2000s, the Wild west of the Internet where young girls were catfished by predators, older male predators, and they were then essentially groomed by the catfisher. There was a really famous case in Australia called Carly Ryan, she has a foundation now and she was, in the early 2000s, she was catfished by an older serial predator and pedophile online. He created a profile of his son. She established a relationship with her as a 17 year old son. He then came to her house, to a party, met the pet like posing as that son's father. He was, his behavior was really erratic. Maybe she was 14, it must have been her 15th birthday. The party he came to three weeks later, he abducted her and murdered her. So that was, that was a terrible, in fact, I mean I'm also going to just rattle off two more. In America, Alicia K established a relationship with a girl online when she was 13 called Christine. She discovered that Christine was an older man. But then that catfisher introduced her to another man who actually did abduct her live broadcasted her rape and torture in his basement. The FBI traced the live broadcast. She is alive. Now she does motivational speaking around online safety. The last case, Kasey Woody, she was in America, 13 years old. She established a 17 like a relationship with a 17 year old boy. Also turned out to be a 47 year old man who did abduct her and murder Her. So these are the really horrific cases where it was actually a pedophile who catfished younger girls and to groom them, but they had horrible ends. But then we also have this third area, and this is the area that we're really talking about here is what is the end goal. These cases are actually far less common. So in our study we were interested in exploring the dark tetrad of personality. These are things four socially noxious personality traits. These, I've had a lot of research on these traits over the years exploring different antisocial behaviors, whether online or offline. And there seems some value here, given how these traits are characterized, that they would predict catfishing. So we were interested in assessing narcissism. So egoism, a sense of superiority, psychopathy, so being impulsive, a lack of guilt, personal responsibility for your actions, a lack of empathy as well, or I should say empathy, healthy deficits, Machiavellianism, which is the tendency to manipulate others for your own personal gain. And lastly sadism. So enjoyment of harming people psychologically or physically. So you can see with these traits coming out. But yeah, so it's making like sense that okay, well there's probably value in exploring these. I should also note we explore these traits as non clinical or subclinical. We're not diagnosing people with a narcissistic personality disorder. Everybody has some level of narcissism. Everybody has some level of sadism. Like if you've seen a friend fall over and laugh like it's a little, you know, we all have a level of these traits. We're interested in people who have higher levels of these traits subclinically might not meet that personality disorder, but they are more narcissistic and high levels of those other traits.

Monica Padman (16:25)

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Andy Rosen (16:35)

Absolutely.

Monica Padman (16:36)

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Monica Padman (17:58)

That's growththerapy.com Beth growtherapy.com Beth B E T H Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. Support for Beth's TED comes from CB Distillery. The holidays are super hectic. There's family drama, there's last minute shopping, late nights. It can make the holidays feel like an endurance test. That's why I'm sharing the ultimate holiday survival plan. CBD from CB Distillery.

Elizabeth Lame (18:25)

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Evita March (21:27)

How we assessed catfishing was tricky. There's no psychometrically validated measure of catfishing out there. So what we did was we generated some items that seem to capture catfishing behaviors. And some of these items included things like I tell lies about myself when I talk to someone online or I make up stories or excuses to avoid meeting people online in real life. I fabricated online profiles to escape my real life. So we found that people who engaged in those higher levels of catfishing had higher narcissism, higher psychopathy and particularly blowing off the charts was sadism. Like sadism was an incredibly strong predictor. So their enjoyment of hurting other people was very strong. Another interesting little finding we we also looked at men and women if one engaged in more of this because the research around that is a bit hazy like who does this more. We did find before we in we explored the personality traits we popped gender in the model first to see well is gender doing anything. We did find that men were engaging in these in this behavior more but once we included personality traits that was that was gone. It became non significant. So at the end that means it doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman, if you're a narcissistic hire, if you're higher in psychopathy, but particularly especially if you are like non clinical sadistic, then you're going to engage in this behavior more.

Elizabeth Lame (23:01)

Yes.

Monica Padman (23:01)

I have a question. Because of the Internet. And not just the Internet though, you know, just even the amount of podcasts that have come up in the last 10 years, there's like also these parasocial relationships that start happening and, and to me, the two are so closely linked. When you're in these parasocial relationships, you can feel entitled to those people even though you don't know them. But you're like, but I consume your content all day long and I know you. And I think it can easily get thwarted into we're in a relationship when we're not.

Evita March (23:40)

I haven't explored parasocial relationships, but I guess the concept there is similar of this form of attachment. I guess what I would say though is that that's it's a little bit different. To me, like I think they're in the same ballpark. But the catfisher is intentionally manipulating you into that relationship. Like my parasocial relationship. It could be just following somebody or an influencer. I see that their life is so similar to mine. I feel really close to them. I feel a sense of connection, which we all do. We may have people we follow where we feel really connected to that they may never have spoken or acknowledged us, but we have that sense of connection. The catfisher is creating that sense of connection in you. They are exploiting you in some way. They exploited your empathy that you had for these younger women to create that relationship. They find how they can exploit you and they do so now. That's why online dating is a really thriving, fertile environment for this because they are exploiting people's want for a relationship. I mean, you could not find a more fertile environment to try and catfish people who by are likely lonely because, and I don't say everybody who's single is lonely. That's a cop out that shit. But I can say that people who are creating a date or looking to online date are probably looking for a relationship and that is exploited. That is why they, they are quite good at what they do and why the shame that people experience as a result of this is so misplaced, especially from what we found in our research. I just want to talk a little bit about the Machiavellianism finding because we didn't actually find it as a significant predictor, which at first glance confused Us a little because we thought that's the manipulative trait, like that's the exploitive one. Like what happened there. Why didn't that come to the party? What we actually can, what we theorized from that was Machiavellianism is really dependent on what they get out of it. As in their manipulation of others is for their own gain. Narcissism could go either way. We did think one narcissistic could just be that sense of entitlement. I'm, I can do this. Like I'm entitled to do this and treat people this way. The other thing we also thought with narcissists though is that they actually could take some enjoyment and being able to manipulate people of profile, which may be like your exact case that you described as well in that being able to manipulate you gave them a sense of superiority. They had control over you.

Elizabeth Lame (26:17)

This all brings me a huge question for you is, are these people dangerous? You know, I've had like fear for the last eight years and really once we realized what was going on, kind of shut everything down. We shut our podcast down. I, I scrubbed my Instagram of my children, you know, things like that.

Evita March (26:38)

Yeah.

Elizabeth Lame (26:39)

Clearly the ones who are predators, like sexual predators are extremely dangerous. But for these, the ones who is not quite so clear cut what they're after, do you think that they are dangerous?

Evita March (26:54)

I mean it's, it is a huge question because I guess it depends on the motivation, like a lot of things. So there were some researchers that did explore that and they were people who had catfished. They didn't get to interview many because as unsurprisingly not a few, not a lot came forward, but a lot of the. They cited motivations of loneliness and also escapism.

Evita March (27:19)

Now that I think likely might render them a bit more innocuous. It's a really hard thing to tease apart though because I think that the very act of what they're doing is dangerous because of the psychological impact that they can have. The behavior is abusive because it leaves you feeling like fearing for your safety. Look at how much you changed your life because of this. But whether they are actually going to. Let's say, I guess the word we'd be looking for here is violent. Are they going to be violent at the end of things? This what might be reassuring is in these cases where it was more like the motivation was unknown why they did this. Was it just to Monica, as you put a. With people, there haven't been a lot of outcomes of violence. Typically when the catfishing is Discovered it falls apart. Like, it's just. It is the person, the victim, survivor, is there putting back the pieces together of their life.

Elizabeth Lame (28:18)

That's such a relief.

Evita March (28:20)

Yeah. There hasn't been a lot, but I mean, in saying that there are cases of violence, so I certainly wouldn't want to, I guess, reassure and say, no, no, no, don't worry. Like. But I guess I'm also emphasizing. I'm like, I really don't want the takeaway to ever be, like, cool. Like, you know, it's not so bad as long as it doesn't get violent.

Elizabeth Lame (28:40)

Yeah, right.

Evita March (28:41)

I wonder sometimes if. And I really don't want. Because this is not based on research. It's just my speculation. So I really can't confirm. But I wonder sometimes if also the cat, in these circumstances, when they have created 60 identities, they're doing this for over nearly a decade. Imagine how much work that is. Like, I wonder if there's a point that they are like, release me from this. Somebody has to stop me because I cannot stop myself.

Elizabeth Lame (29:11)

Oh, interesting. I could see that one of the things that when I stopped responding to this, these characters.

Elizabeth Lame (29:21)

You could feel the panic of the person behind the screen. And we also made it so that the comments on our website we were getting, but they weren't being published. And it was almost like this person was more panicked about not having their life's work. So panicked that that was gone. Like, there's such a pride to this kind of massive, I don't know, compilation of work, really. And it was. It truly was impressive, like, how.

Elizabeth Lame (30:00)

Detailed. All these characters are prolific. And I also.

Elizabeth Lame (30:06)

In doing this podcast, I've been reflecting a lot. And.

Elizabeth Lame (30:12)

I also feel like when you're saying narcissism.

Elizabeth Lame (30:19)

Not so much the sadism, but if there's a version of, like, them thinking that they actually were helping me because I took the bait. I wanted to be the hero to this young woman who is struggling and this other woman who is such a huge fan. And, like, I was feeding into this and I. I don't know if there's a story that maybe these people are telling themselves about, like, I'm actually helping or I'm being a positive force in this person's life, even though it's all fake. Okay.

Andy Rosen (30:53)

Like, they have to justify it to themselves and that's a plausible way to do it, at least, sort of.

Evita March (30:58)

Maybe that's, yeah, a really important point because along the way, I mean, unless they are a complete psychopath, they would have to rationalise their behaviour and rationalise this. And that is, I think, a really excellent way that they could do that.

Andy Rosen (31:16)

How typical is it that there are these multiple characters in these situations? Is that pretty common in a lot of cases?

Evita March (31:24)

It does seem to be that the catfisher tends to create, like, at least one alternate that can confirm what the catfisher is saying. Again, I can't speak to every case because I don't know, but I do know of, like, some popular ones. There's at least some alternate that's able to reassure the victim survivor that this is like, this person is genuine, this person is real. In some cases, it is just the catfisher and one person. So actually, there was something interesting you did say earlier and that was. And I thought what a nice way might be to also round up this conversation was to talk a bit about, like. Like warning signs. What can people do? Like, what's a bit of a call to action with catfishing? So how. What do we do?

Elizabeth Lame (32:05)

Oh, was it when I asked what kind of idiots fall for this?

Evita March (32:11)

So, firstly, I'm going to reiterate with that. It's actually not about who can fall for it. I think, though, it is people that may be vulnerable in some way for them to exploit and take advantage of. You also noted earlier that it took somebody else from outside. And I think that is the biggest thing I do say to people as like a guy with this, is that when you are in it, it is actually you're lost. And this is what they have created. They have created a world of control for you. And you're in that world. You cannot see the forest through the trees from this. And if you try, they will create a whole new thing to bring you back in. So you are almost helpless in this. If anything feels ever off, or it might not feel right, talk to somebody who is not in it or talk to somebody who's outside, because honestly, they could even, like, just as an assessment, say, that does not seem right. And you need somebody who is not being trapped, controlled, exploited to give you that and say that. So that's my big encouragement, people, if it seems something seems a bit off, talk to somebody else about it. Get that objective view.

Elizabeth Lame (33:24)

That's such good advice. Because my friend was the one who said, that's weird. And then I think it took Andy going, that is weird. You know, it took kind of two outside people. Because I was just during this conversation thinking if Beth had at some point said, hey, can I talk to you? I mean, I was in so deep with her, I would have called her like. And I Now I have such stronger boundaries, obviously.

Elizabeth Lame (33:58)

Thanks to this experience. But it's pretty wild to think back on that. I had two tiny children, you know, so busy that I would have dropped everything to talk to this person because I felt that kind of invested.

Evita March (34:15)

It's almost as if they put these. This pair of sunglasses on you, and you are now lost in this world, and you are lost. Like, I mean, even your behavior can be extreme. Like, you would not even expect yourself in other circumstances to behave like this. But that. That's. That is all the manipulation and control. That is what they do. And, I mean, when they anticipate any extent of you pulling away, any chance that you may actually or somebody else could take those sunglasses off, they will up the ante to continue that control. Which is why it's really extraordinary that I do think that there are a few, like, even doing this, and they do up the ante, but then when they eventually do get caught, they're like, oh, thank God. Cause I never would have stopped. I genuinely don't think that some know how to stop.

Monica Padman (35:04)

Yeah, it sounds. I mean, it's sort of akin to domestic abuse cases. It sounds like you get in this cycle of, like, bringing you in so close and needing somebody else to bring you out of it, and this, like, hate you, love you cycle. It's like. It sounds very similar, weirdly.

Evita March (35:25)

Yeah, I would say that they're almost two. Like, it's just a different. I mean, it is abuse. And yeah, it is a. It is absolutely a different form. Because another characteristic of both, either in abusive relay, intimate relationships, or even the Catfisher, is the commonality of love bombing. Whether it is love bombing with, like, if online dating, it may be showering you at the beginning with compliments, but even if it's not online dating, it's love bombing in the sense of perhaps you heard, like, you're such a great listener. You're so good at this. You're so, like, they make you feel special for the very thing that they're trying to exploit you for.

Evita March (36:07)

Yeah.

Andy Rosen (36:08)

The one thing that we've theorized, or getting back to who this can happen to, we were a great target, especially Elizabeth. We had this podcast that was kind of a playbook of our personalities. And so once this person started doing this to Elizabeth, they had this playbook sort of of like. Like, she'll probably relate to this. She'll probably like this. And they. But they did it from all these different angles, which was so wild.

Evita March (36:32)

Yeah, I'm like, I hate to say that you almost like they had a dossier.

Evita March (36:39)

Look, an online environment offers so many social benefits. It does. Like, particularly for identity exploration, giving safe environments for people. I mean, like also supporting mental health. There's so many benefits of being online, but there's also quite a bit of danger and the potential for experiencing abuse and exploitation.

Monica Padman (36:59)

I'm glad we got to talk to you because I think it's just such a good reminder to everyone that what you put on the Internet can be. Can be used.

Evita March (37:06)

Yeah. Yes. I am a very strong advocate as well for embedding more digital literacy in or education programs for younger adults, learning how to actually use privacy functions, but also how to report, how to block. Sadly, a lot of younger people just seem to think that they just have to deal with it alone or they have to manage it. So I think I'm just an advocate in general for increasing our digital literacy, keeping us safe online.

Elizabeth Lame (37:36)

That's excellent. Thank you so much.

Evita March (37:39)

Yeah, thanks for the chat and all the best with the podcast.

Andy Rosen (37:45)

Oh, hey, welcome to gift wrapping.

Monica Padman (37:47)

Whoa.

Andy Rosen (37:47)

So is Saldana.

Monica Padman (37:48)

Hey, can you wrap these please?

Evita March (37:50)

Wow.

Andy Rosen (37:51)

IPhone 17s.

Monica Padman (37:52)

You splurged at T Mobile. You can get four iPhone 17s on them. The new center stage front camera is amazing for group selfies. It's the perfect gift for everyone.

Andy Rosen (38:00)

I'm the worst. I only got my mom a robe.

Evita March (38:02)

Well, it's better than socks.

Andy Rosen (38:04)

So I have to trade in my old phone, right?

Monica Padman (38:06)

No, AT T Mobile. There's no trade ins needed when you switch. Keep your old phone or give it as a gift.

Andy Rosen (38:11)

Incredible.

Monica Padman (38:12)

In fact, wrap up my old phone too for my aunt Rosa. Forget that. That aunt Liz will be jealous.

Andy Rosen (38:17)

Sounds like my family drama.

Evita March (38:18)

Oh, I got it. I'll give it to my abuela.

Monica Padman (38:20)

I'll take reindeer paper with.

Evita March (38:21)

Hey, where are you going?

Andy Rosen (38:22)

To T Mobile. The holidays are better. AT T Mobile get four iPhone 17s on us. No trade in needed when you switch. Plus four lines for just 25 bucks a line. And now T Mobile is available in US cellular stores with 24 monthly bill credits and four eligible board ins on essentials for well qualified customers. Auto pay + taxes, fees and $35 device connection charge credits and in balance due if you pay off early or Cancel Content. Contact Us Finance Agreement 256 gigabytes. $830 required.

Elizabeth Lame (38:44)

Visit T mobile.com holiday shopping lists are long and finding the best deals while still giving thoughtful gifts can be challenging. That's where Amazon comes in.

Evita March (38:54)

Amazon was just named the lowest priced.

Elizabeth Lame (38:57)

Online retailer in the US for the ninth consecutive year by Profitero, a third.

Evita March (39:01)

Party analytics and research firm.

Elizabeth Lame (39:03)

After analyzing thousands of products, they found.

Monica Padman (39:06)

Amazon Amazon's prices are 14% lower on.

Elizabeth Lame (39:09)

Average and up to 5% lower than.

Monica Padman (39:11)

The nearest competitor in key gift categories.

Elizabeth Lame (39:13)

Like electronics and toys. When you're shopping for everyone from your spouse to your second cousin's new baby.

Monica Padman (39:19)

Those savings really add up. The best part is you don't sacrifice.

Elizabeth Lame (39:23)

Selection for better prices. Amazon offers everything from major brands to unique finds from small businesses, all delivered.

Evita March (39:30)

Right to your door.

Elizabeth Lame (39:31)

If you're trying to be smart about your holiday budget, and who isn't? Visit Amazon.com.

Evita March (39:42)

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Elizabeth Lame (40:11)

I am so, so glad we did that.

Monica Padman (40:14)

Yeah, me too.

Elizabeth Lame (40:15)

She was amazing. But I cannot say it put me more at ease.

Monica Padman (40:20)

You don't feel safer after that?

Evita March (40:23)

Just.

Elizabeth Lame (40:24)

You know, I do feel like the more we talk about this, and I feel like it is the right thing to do to give him the opportunity to weigh in, but. Yeesh.

Evita March (40:36)

Well.

Monica Padman (40:36)

Okay, well, before we make any, like, major decisions, let me share with you some of the information we got from the private investigator I hired. We'll call her Amanda.

Monica Padman (40:52)

How's everyone feeling?

Elizabeth Lame (40:54)

Nervous.

Elizabeth Lame (40:56)

How are you feeling, Andrew?

Andy Rosen (40:57)

Yeah, a little nervous.

Elizabeth Lame (40:59)

Like, what are we nervous about?

Monica Padman (41:01)

Yeah, that's a great question.

Andy Rosen (41:03)

Just how potentially.

Andy Rosen (41:08)

I don't know, I am. I don't even if I'm comfortable, like, saying this, but, like, how potentially, like, bad this guy is or like, you know, he's already made us so at unease in general. Revisiting this has made me uneasy. And then I'm like, if I'm gonna find out a bunch of other bad, is it gonna make me feel more unease?

Elizabeth Lame (41:28)

Yeah, you know?

Monica Padman (41:29)

Well, okay, so let's. Let's dive in, shall we? I found out that based on what our guy has out on the Internet already, like, what. What he has put out there, there's a through line of victimhood in his story. He is the victim.

Andy Rosen (41:50)

Okay.

Monica Padman (41:51)

Which makes it interesting for us a little bit because I wonder.

Elizabeth Lame (41:55)

He's gonna love this.

Monica Padman (41:57)

I mean, I wonder how he's framed this in his head so that He's a victim. Because he will. Right. Like, right. I think we. I mean, I think we all do this. We justify our actions, especially when we know that they're not great or our, you know, our subconscious knows are not great. We find a way to justify it. So I do find that through line relevant because I feel that it might come up if and when we make contact.

Elizabeth Lame (42:28)

It's so interesting to me because, yes, I think on some level all of us do this, but he made the choice to do this and spent so much time. I truly can't fathom how he would spin the story that he was the victim. Although he kind of remember he was harping on Beth had donated a thousand dollars and like she. My sister donated a thousand dollars and you won't even call me back. I mean, even his characters played the roles of victim time and time again.

Andy Rosen (43:06)

In his mind, he's already paid the with you tax.

Elizabeth Lame (43:10)

Exactly.

Monica Padman (43:12)

I believe he has justified this in some way. And I am really curious to know what it is. And I have a feeling maybe.

Monica Padman (43:21)

This victim.

Monica Padman (43:23)

Persona might come up, but I don't know, might come out to play.

Evita March (43:27)

That's right.

Andy Rosen (43:28)

Yeah.

Monica Padman (43:29)

Okay. He has had a hard life. He's had a lot of interpersonal loss, which is definitely interesting because last episode we were reading his email, what we are calling his manifesto, and we were saying that this part is probably true. It's really him.

Elizabeth Lame (43:51)

Yes.

Monica Padman (43:52)

And turns out it is.

Elizabeth Lame (43:54)

Exactly.

Monica Padman (43:55)

That's also interesting as far as.

Monica Padman (43:59)

Maybe his need for like, connection.

Elizabeth Lame (44:02)

I also wonder how much of what his characters were offering was.

Elizabeth Lame (44:10)

Potentially like a catharsis for him.

Andy Rosen (44:13)

Maybe also hearing that, you know, the parents dying and whatnot. You know, that's something that you're very vocal about, especially back then, as some.

Elizabeth Lame (44:21)

Would say to a problematic degree.

Andy Rosen (44:23)

But that he might have, you know, he's seemingly very drawn to you. And maybe you guys in his head were simpatico sort of, you know, he was hoping to develop this relationship because you would understand him maybe.

Monica Padman (44:40)

Right? Yeah.

Andy Rosen (44:41)

Yeah.

Elizabeth Lame (44:41)

Okay. Interesting.

Monica Padman (44:42)

Yeah. One very interesting thing is he has been vocal that he's had stalkers.

Elizabeth Lame (44:49)

That is fascinating.

Andy Rosen (44:52)

Someone that does that, that's saying they've had all these stalkers and all this stuff. I'm the victim. Over and over.

Monica Padman (44:59)

Yes.

Andy Rosen (44:59)

And yet they're doing this to Elizabeth.

Monica Padman (45:03)

Yeah.

Andy Rosen (45:05)

Is all of that bullshit like, do they never have stalkers? And then this is just this weird way to get in front of this stuff. Almost your.

Andy Rosen (45:15)

It seems like a weird mental games that you're doing sort of I don't know.

Elizabeth Lame (45:18)

Look, we've seen some notable politicians in recent years who constantly are pointing the finger at their opposition, saying, I'm just hypothetically saying, like, you rigged the election or you unfairly. Blah, blah, blah. Well, it's almost like to create a distraction over there while I do the exact thing that I'm claiming this other person has done to me.

Andy Rosen (45:47)

Yeah.

Elizabeth Lame (45:47)

I would bet a million dollars and I don't have. That he has not been stalked and that. I feel like it's similar to. I don't know, let's think about, like, a cult leader or someone like that who. There are steps that you take and you kind of learn how to get better at it and stuff like that. I almost feel like if he's writing about someone doing this thing to him, it's almost like a admission of guilt or a purging. It's a purging or. And it's also, to me, kind of of self masturbatory, like, where he's, like, waving this out there. And this is what they did, and these are the steps they took and kind of showing his cards in a way and getting away with it. Also, I just want to say if. If you were so upset about being put through this that you're online talking about it, you don't go and then put someone else through it.

Andy Rosen (46:48)

But that's what. I don't know. Because, you know, you hear so many stories. Abused people. Abused people.

Elizabeth Lame (46:52)

Yep. You know, that is true.

Andy Rosen (46:55)

I don't know. That's. That's where my question is in all of this.

Monica Padman (46:58)

Well, because also. Okay, the picture of Natasha and Anders. Yes, I have. I know who they are. I mean, I don't know if I should say it. I mean, I don't think it would make a difference, but they've been located like they're real people. And. Well, the boy, Anders, his last name is Anderson.

Monica Padman (47:18)

Wow.

Elizabeth Lame (47:18)

Wow.

Monica Padman (47:20)

And then she put two and two together, which I cannot believe. We did not do that. None of us did that. Anders sounds like Andy, and obviously Beth is short for Elizabeth. And so there is, like, a weird name. There is a weird name.

Elizabeth Lame (47:37)

There's something with the names, for sure.

Andy Rosen (47:39)

Yeah.

Elizabeth Lame (47:40)

Well, I also want to say, interestingly, we discovered Monica. I'm so sorry that I sent you a erotic photo.

Monica Padman (47:50)

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Elizabeth Lame (47:52)

Gallery. But I had forgotten that I had the link to the gallery that he had sent me as Beth to basically say, these aren't so bad, are they? And long story short, the adult model that was playing the role of Beth. In his narration, her name or part of her name is Natasha.

Andy Rosen (48:20)

Wow.

Elizabeth Lame (48:21)

So he kind of cycles through.

Monica Padman (48:23)

He's doing a weird thing with names.

Elizabeth Lame (48:25)

I mean, I will say as, as a writer, not as prolific as this man, but I often just pull names out of, you know, I will be like, this character's named Monica. Because I saw you this week and.

Monica Padman (48:39)

God willing, you write me into one of your scripts.

Elizabeth Lame (48:43)

Of course. But do they, I'm so curious if they know that they've been.

Monica Padman (48:48)

I. If they've been used in this way. My guess is no.

Elizabeth Lame (48:52)

Right.

Andy Rosen (48:53)

So there's no connection to him.

Monica Padman (48:54)

These people didn't seem like it. Okay. My most important question for her was, do you think this person is a threat? And she said no, she doesn't think so. After, like, doing her whole deep dive, she said he does not have a criminal record. And she doesn't think there's reason to believe that he's like, a threat. A scary, I mean, he's scary mentally, obviously, but that he would hurt us.

Elizabeth Lame (49:26)

Yeah, right.

Andy Rosen (49:28)

Does she think we got the right guy?

Monica Padman (49:30)

Yes, she does think so.

Evita March (49:31)

Yeah.

Monica Padman (49:32)

So, you know, we got some information. We didn't get it all. I don't think we'll ever get it. It all. I can't really get it out of my head that I think we need to attempt to make contact with him.

Monica Padman (49:50)

And this is obviously up to you guys, but I think.

Monica Padman (49:58)

It would be best if one of you two was there to be a part of this confrontation. I think it's the only way for you two to have any sort of closure around this. And we can talk about what that means. And I want to know how you guys feel about it.

Elizabeth Lame (50:22)

So nervous.

Monica Padman (50:23)

It's a lot. I know.

Andy Rosen (50:25)

I feel protective of you not to talk to him. I don't necessarily think there would be any repercussions from it. I'm not that worried. But on the small chance that, like, it does rattle you more than less. I hate, I hate that, that it could, like, trigger, I don't know, bring you back to that time. More so where I'm like, than just revisiting it now. Because I feel like revisiting it now is almost closure in this weird way that I just would hate for him to spark the uneasiness again.

Elizabeth Lame (51:00)

Well, what would it look like, Monica?

Monica Padman (51:02)

I mean, I think I don't, you know, I'm not, unfortunately, I'm not a detective or. That is unfortunate, or a journalist or anything. So I, I, I think I'm gonna either call that number yeah.

Monica Padman (51:22)

Oh, that sounds so scary. But I think I'll either call that number or email him.

Elizabeth Lame (51:28)

Okay.

Monica Padman (51:29)

And say, hey, Hello.

Monica Padman (51:35)

Hi.

Elizabeth Lame (51:35)

I'm not sure how hi. In Norwegian. English.

Andy Rosen (51:38)

Oh, my gosh.

Monica Padman (51:40)

Oh, my God. Yeah, I think I'll have to say something like, hi, I'm Monica Padman. I.

Monica Padman (51:49)

Produce the Armchair Expert podcast. We're doing a podcast about some events that involve you. We would really love it if you would participate.

Andy Rosen (52:02)

Yeah. Like, we would love to hear your side of this side of the story. Can we set up a time to chat?

Monica Padman (52:08)

Yeah.

Andy Rosen (52:09)

Is it that.

Monica Padman (52:10)

I think we do need to say this is coming out whether you're participating in it or not, which I. Because I think that will make him want to share his side of the story, and it's not for me. It's not a trap. I want to hear his side of the story. We have so many fucking questions that we've laid out throughout this whole show, and I want to know what the answers are, and I also want to know what his mindset is and was.

Elizabeth Lame (52:40)

And I'm so curious if. I mean, wouldn't it just pull all of us over if he were like, yeah, I really regret doing that. It got out of control or something like that. I would feel like, whoa, you know, I don't think that's what's gonna happen, but I do. I like the idea of the two of you. I don't want to, like, send Monica out like a lone sheep.

Andy Rosen (53:06)

We still have the totally lame email, right?

Elizabeth Lame (53:09)

Yeah.

Andy Rosen (53:10)

Which he's emailed a gazillion times, and.

Elizabeth Lame (53:13)

He would be intrigued.

Andy Rosen (53:15)

Why don't we.

Monica Padman (53:16)

Oh, that's a good idea.

Andy Rosen (53:18)

Like that. We know he already has that email, so I don't know why we're so afraid of giving our email addresses to this guy, but we are.

Monica Padman (53:25)

Yeah.

Andy Rosen (53:25)

Imagine being him getting an email from that email address. I kind of love that.

Elizabeth Lame (53:31)

And what are you gonna say?

Andy Rosen (53:32)

I think it's. Well, let's decide right now. I think it's. This is Andy from Totally Lame and Totally Married reaching out. Because we're working on a story that involves you that we're doing if. With your blessing, Monica. That we're doing with Armchair.

Monica Padman (53:49)

Yes.

Andy Rosen (53:51)

And we would really like to talk to you. Talk to you before we publish it.

Monica Padman (53:57)

Yeah, I think.

Evita March (53:57)

Period.

Monica Padman (53:58)

Yes.

Andy Rosen (53:58)

Can we set up a time to check that?

Elizabeth Lame (54:00)

Let's do it right now.

Evita March (54:02)

Yeah.

Andy Rosen (54:03)

Okay.

Elizabeth Lame (54:04)

Let me get my laptop.

Andy Rosen (54:05)

Great.

Monica Padman (54:07)

What's everyone's anxiety level right now?

Evita March (54:09)

It's just.

Elizabeth Lame (54:09)

Shoot the roof.

Andy Rosen (54:11)

Just real quick, though. Is this, Is this the way?

Monica Padman (54:14)

This is the way.

Elizabeth Lame (54:15)

I think it is the way. And I feel like we have a backup plan. Whereas I feel like if we had called.

Elizabeth Lame (54:21)

Like calling him and not getting a response or answer or whatever feels tricky. I think this way we can without a doubt know that he's opening that email and looking at it. Right? Because it's from Totally Lame versus any other email. I would go like, did he even get it? I don't know.

Andy Rosen (54:43)

Then I actually think a follow up email from the Armchair World is like completely appropriate and raises the stakes a little bit more of like, oh, shit, they're serious.

Elizabeth Lame (54:54)

Right?

Andy Rosen (54:55)

And then if there's no response there, then the call. I kind of like that plan of attack.

Elizabeth Lame (54:59)

Okay, great.

Monica Padman (54:59)

Me too.

Elizabeth Lame (55:00)

Okay.

Andy Rosen (55:01)

Okay, let's send it.

Andy Rosen (55:06)

I don't know why we're high fiving.

Monica Padman (55:09)

I'm scared. This is big. I'm getting in his head right now. Imagine is presented by amateur experts Monica Pavin.

Andy Rosen (55:17)

And nobody's listening, right? It is produced and edited by Andy Rosen, Elizabeth Lame and Monica Padman. Additional engineering by Rob Hollis. Music and sound by Andy Rosen. Special thanks to Evita March.

Monica Padman (55:30)

And that's sad to me in some ways too.

Elizabeth Lame (55:33)

Like, okay, what's the subject?

Andy Rosen (55:39)

Your side of the story?

Monica Padman (55:41)

How about. How about podcast request? He wants to be heard.

Andy Rosen (55:50)

This is Andy.

Elizabeth Lame (55:51)

This is Andy from Totally Lame and Totally Married podcast. Yeah, podcasts. We are doing a. I think story is good. Like, on a story that involves you.

Andy Rosen (56:11)

I would love to give you the chance to tell your side of the story. Can we set up a time to chat?

Elizabeth Lame (56:18)

I think that might automatically put him on defensive. I think it should be like, I would love to chat with you and.

Monica Padman (56:26)

Ask some questions maybe.

Elizabeth Lame (56:28)

Or I think even just chat with you.

Monica Padman (56:32)

Leave it vague.

Elizabeth Lame (56:33)

Yeah, when you have the time. Or like, I'd love to chat with you when you have a few minutes.

Monica Padman (56:39)

I'd love to set up a time to chat with you.

Elizabeth Lame (56:41)

Yes.

Andy Rosen (56:42)

Can you let me know your availability?

Elizabeth Lame (56:43)

I'm going to set up a time to chat with you. Can you let me. Your availability. This is so weird because it just feels like a, like, hey, Susan from hr.

Andy Rosen (56:59)

Right?

Monica Padman (57:00)

But we do have. This is very critical, the way we word this, because we want him to feel. We want him to feel like he wants to participate.

Andy Rosen (57:11)

Okay, so what is it?

Evita March (57:12)

Okay.

Elizabeth Lame (57:13)

Podcast request, subject line. This is Andy from Totally Lame and Totally Married podcasts. We are working in collaboration with the Armchair Expert podcast on a story that involves you. I would love to set up a time to chat with you. Can you let me know your availability?

Elizabeth Lame (57:31)

Thanks, Andy.

Evita March (57:34)

Andy.

Andy Rosen (57:35)

I think it's great.

Monica Padman (57:36)

I think it's great.

Elizabeth Lame (57:37)

Okay, I want to barf.

Monica Padman (57:41)

What's our game plan for when it pops in our email? I feel like we shouldn't read it until we have to.

Evita March (57:49)

We can.

Elizabeth Lame (57:49)

I think what we should do is Andy and I will be recording and we'll call you or Zoom.

Monica Padman (57:56)

Okay.

Elizabeth Lame (57:57)

Right.

Andy Rosen (57:57)

Sure.

Monica Padman (57:58)

Yeah.

Evita March (57:58)

Okay.

Elizabeth Lame (58:01)

Okay. I so nervous, but I'm pressing send.

Monica Padman (58:04)

Okay.

Andy Rosen (58:06)

Hell yeah.

Elizabeth Lame (58:07)

Done.

Andy Rosen (58:08)

Great.

Elizabeth Lame (58:08)

Okay.

Monica Padman (58:10)

And we wait.

Andy Rosen (58:21)

If you don't want to wait for more Beth's Dead, you can binge the entire series today at patreon.com bethsdead where all 10 episodes are available and free. Right now, Beth's Dead is presented by armchair experts Monica Padman. And nobody's listening, right? It is produced and edited by Andy Rosen, Elizabeth Lame and Monica Padman. Additional engineering by Rob Hollis. Music and sound by Andy Rosen. Special thanks to Evita March.

Evita March (59:04)

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Andy Rosen (59:33)

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