Bernie Pt. 2 | Betrayal Weekly

Summary

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Betrayal: Weekly

Episode: Bernie Pt. 2 | Betrayal Weekly

Date: October 16, 2025
Host: Andrea Gunning
Featured Guest: Bernie Brown

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Main Theme

This episode continues Bernie Brown’s riveting account of being conned by a man he met online. It explores the toxic relationship’s unraveling, the psychological and financial devastation, and Bernie’s journey to justice, recovery, and helping others. The episode also reveals how Bernie’s personal case linked to a nationwide manhunt for a prolific UK scammer, highlighting the broader epidemic of emotional and financial betrayal.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Escalation of the Scam

• Bernie’s relationship with “Leo”:
  Leo initially charmed Bernie, claiming to be a member of the Royal Family and requiring secrecy due to his status and later a terminal cancer diagnosis.
  • “Three weeks before he had first messaged me, he had actually absconded from prison. He was serving a sentence for fraud. And he was on the run when he met me.” (Bernie Brown, 03:05)
  • Bernie is convinced into a “business deal” for a luxury watch and takes out a high-interest loan for Leo.
• Promise of a new life:
  Leo suggests moving together to a Scottish castle, fueling Bernie’s emotional investment and hope for the future.
  • “He was like, I want to put an offer in and move within the month. I’m just done with all of this…We’ve got one life. Let’s do it.” (Bernie Brown & Andrea Gunning, 05:10–05:19)
• Mounting excuses and gaslighting:
  The luxury watch (for resale) is repeatedly delayed with grandiose lies. Leo withdraws emotionally, and communication lapses begin.
  • “The watch is being almost dangled…for whatever reason, the watch would always either be forgotten or once the cleaner accidentally moved it and it was lost in the house somewhere.” (Bernie Brown, 07:23)

2. Emotional and Psychological Manipulation

• Toxic patterns emerge:
  Bernie describes being gaslighted, breadcrumbed, and isolated. His mental health deteriorates as he becomes consumed by guilt and doubt.
  • “I got massively depressed. I lost so much weight, I didn’t eat.” (Bernie Brown, 08:54)
• Confrontation and realization:
  Suspecting infidelity, Bernie creates a fake profile to catch Leo, confirming Leo’s deception—not just romantically, but with ongoing scams.
  • “He would reply to this person for literally about an hour, but I’m getting no reply. So I’m like, you know what? I’m done now.” (Bernie Brown, 10:42)
• Final straw:
  When Bernie confronts Leo, Leo turns hostile, refuses to return the watch, and lashes out.
  • “He turned nasty. I was like, you’re not getting the watch. You don’t deserve the watch.” (Bernie Brown, 11:25)
• Bernie chooses self-preservation:
  “I said, enough is enough. I’m worth more than this. And I blocked his number.” (Bernie Brown, 12:19)

3. The Aftermath: Financial and Emotional Ruin

• Bernie’s devastation:
  • All savings are lost; debts mount; Bernie’s credit score plummets.
  • “He didn’t take an obscene amount of money from me, monetary wise, but what he did do was absolutely wipe me out…20,000 could have easily been 5 million. It was all that I had.” (Bernie Brown, 14:03)
• Recognition of the crime:
  • A friend reframes the betrayal as theft, and Bernie reports Leo to the police.
  • “She was like, he’s gonna carry on doing it…until somebody actually puts a stop to it.” (Bernie Brown, 15:29)
• Shocking discovery – Leo’s complete fabrication:
  • Police find no trace of Leo Howard; records, car registrations, and backgrounds are all erased.
  • “It was as if I had completely imagined the entire year…because this person just did not exist.” (Bernie Brown, 16:53)
• Police intervention and the unraveling scam:
  • A Channel 4 documentary exposes Leo as a serial fraudster; more victims come forward.
  • “The story had exploded. Leo’s face was all over the news…Now I have proof that it happens.” (Andrea Gunning & Bernie Brown, 22:42–22:52)

4. Connecting with Other Victims and Uncovering the Scam

• Documentary revelation:
  Bernie finds striking parallels between his experience and other victims’ stories.
  • “I read the article and everything that happened to me had happened to her.” (Bernie Brown, 23:49)
• Contact with another victim fills in missing details:
  Bernie learns Leo was on the run from prison when they met and scammed others during the same period.
  • “Three weeks before he had messaged me, he had actually absconded from prison…” (Bernie Brown, 25:50)
• More victims and police errors:
  Multiple victims reported across the country; system gaps allowed Leo to keep running his con.
  • “The police don’t talk to each other over here. And when I had raised my case, they had no idea who it was until the documentary came out.” (Bernie Brown, 27:56)

5. Understanding the “Mastermind”

• Leo’s psychology and background:
  • Messages from people who knew Leo suggest he was always manipulative.
  • “His background is so far from the Royal Family, it’s unbelievable…he created his own system to survive.” (Bernie Brown, 29:22)
  • “Every time he created this Persona, this person, he threw himself so hard into it that he then started to believe that he was this person…” (Bernie Brown, 30:45)
• Was it ever real?
  Despite it all, Bernie still wonders if parts of their connection were genuine or just methods of control.
  • “I think there is an element that he had gone through so much and then he met me…I do believe at some point he did get emotionally connected…” (Bernie Brown, 36:03)
  • “At some point, I do believe that he thought that he could get away from it all and escape with me…” (Bernie Brown, 36:52)

6. The Scale of the Fraud

• High-level cons:
  Leo defrauded Harrod’s department store out of £500,000 and scammed luxury watch and car dealerships.
  • “He scammed half a million pounds out of Harrods. Like, you are a different level when you can do that.” (Bernie Brown, 38:11)
• Justice and ongoing risk:
  Leo is caught and sentenced again but still qualifies for early release; criminal repercussions are uncertain.
  • “But he still qualified for early release. The mind boggles, but that’s what we are currently facing.” (Bernie Brown, 28:58)

7. Healing, Advocacy, and Lessons Learned

• TikTok and support systems:
  Bernie finds support from friends and begins to process his trauma on TikTok, connecting with others through content about narcissistic abuse.
  • “TikTok was instrumental in me healing…with the amount of gaslighting, love bombing, breadcrumbing—you get so heavily sucked in that it does actually change your makeup.” (Bernie Brown, 39:35)
• Lingering scars and new contentment:
  • “Your trust in other people after this is almost non-existent.” (Bernie Brown, 40:46)
  • “I have a beautiful soon to be husband and I’ve got a little puppy and I’ve got amazing friends and family and actually neighbors. So, I’m content…He will never, ever in his life have what I have sat in this chair now.” (Bernie Brown, 40:58)
• Purpose in sharing:
  Bernie wants to help others see warning signs and avoid similar devastation.
  • “I know for a fact that there’s thousands of Leos around the world…If I can share and open somebody else’s eyes and say, you know, if this ain’t right, then it’s worth it.” (Bernie Brown, 42:24)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the gaslighting and loss:

  “He would reply to this person for literally about an hour, but I’m getting no reply. So I’m like, you know what? I’m done now. That’s it. I need to get this watch and I need to get it soon.”
  — Bernie Brown (10:42)

• On the impact:

  “He didn’t take an obscene amount of money from me…20,000 could have easily been 5 million. It was all that I had.”
  — Bernie Brown (14:03)

• On realizing the scale of Leo’s deception:

  “It was as if I had completely imagined the entire year…because this person just did not exist.”
  — Bernie Brown (16:53)

• On justice finally catching up:

  “The story had exploded. Leo’s face was all over the news…Now I have proof that it happens.”
  — Bernie Brown (22:52)

• On healing and support:

  “TikTok was instrumental in me healing…you get so heavily sucked in that it does actually change your makeup. And it changes the way you think.”
  — Bernie Brown (39:35)

• On what’s left after betrayal:

  “He will never ever in his life have what I have sat in this chair now…I don’t hate him…just sadness.”
  — Bernie Brown (40:58)

• Why Bernie shares his story:

  “If I can share and open somebody else’s eyes…then it’s worth it.”
  — Bernie Brown (42:24)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Background and scam’s setup – 03:05–05:43
• Isolation, emotional unraveling – 06:41–09:17
• The confrontation – 10:22–12:19
• Financial devastation – 12:33–14:32
• Reporting to police and realization – 15:29–17:56
• Documentary and connecting with other victims – 22:18–25:03
• Uncovering Leo’s background and multi-victim scam – 29:22–31:01
• Scale of Leo's crimes – 38:00–39:10
• Bernie’s healing and learning – 39:35–41:45
• Purpose of sharing story and message to others – 42:17–43:08

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Conclusion

This episode delivers a harrowing but ultimately hopeful look at the reality of personal and financial betrayal. Bernie Brown’s story highlights the warning signs, the emotional devastation, and the difficult path of recovery and resilience. By sharing his experience and connecting with others affected by scams and narcissistic abuse, Bernie reclaims agency and offers hope and support to victims everywhere.

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To connect with Bernie or find support:
Search for Ernie Brown on TikTok, or reach out via the Betrayal podcast’s channels.

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Transcript

[Andrea Gunning]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Bernie Brown]

The detective said missing kids usually come home. What happens when they don't?

[Asma Khalid]

Based on a true story.

[Bernie Brown]

Police looking for John Gacy.

[Andrea Gunning]

We discovered bodies.

[Bernie Brown]

By the looks of it, they're younger men. The things he did to those kids. He's sick.

[Andrea Gunning]

The system bailed these families.

[Bernie Brown]

Devil in disguise.

[Asma Khalid]

John Wayne Gacy.

[Bernie Brown]

Streaming now only on Peacock. Do you know how many there are? Up to you to find out.

[Andrea Gunning]

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[Asma Khalid]

America is changing and so is the world.

[Tristan Redman]

But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.

[Asma Khalid]

I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm.

[Tristan Redman]

Tristan Redman in London and this is the Global Story.

[Asma Khalid]

Every weekday we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.

[Tristan Redman]

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Andrea Gunning]

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[Bernie Brown]

Three weeks before he had first messaged me, he had actually absconded from prison. He was serving a sentence for fraud. And he was on the run when he met me.

[Andrea Gunning]

I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. Bernie Brown met a man named Leo on Grindr. Leo was unlike anyone he'd ever met, intoxicatingly charming, and it didn't hurt that he drove a Bentley. After a few weeks of dating, Leo revealed that he was actually a member of the Royal Family. And because of that, he couldn't come out as gay. His relationship with Bernie had to be a secret. Leo's need for privacy became even more heightened when he received a terminal cancer diagnosis. All the while, Leo kept up his career restoring luxury watches. He even made a deal with Bernie to restore a Rolex for free. Bernie just had to cover the initial cost. To do that, Bernie took out a high interest loan to pay for the watch, and together they would resell it for a profit. But once Bernie transferred the money, Leo's communication became more sparse. Until one night when Bernie got a hysterical call from his boyfriend.

[Bernie Brown]

He was like, bernie, I can't take this life anymore.

[Andrea Gunning]

Bernie drove across the country to pick him up.

[Bernie Brown]

He was in tears. He went asleep and I was stroking his hair.

[Andrea Gunning]

The next morning, Leo made a proposition.

[Bernie Brown]

And he's like, I've got a serious question that I need to ask you. I want to move somewhere in Scotland. Would you come with me?

[Andrea Gunning]

Leo had been looking to buy a castle in the Scottish countryside where he could live out the rest of his life the way he wanted to with Bernie.

[Bernie Brown]

And he was like, I want to put an offer in and move within the month. I'm just done with all of this. I'm like, do you know what? We've got one life. Let's do it.

[Andrea Gunning]

Leo drove them back to London. It was a five hour drive, and they spent every minute of it planning their new life.

[Bernie Brown]

We had designed this entire life down to the jobs we would do, the businesses we would build.

[Andrea Gunning]

On their drive, Leo's grandparents called. They were nearby. So Leo decided to meet up with them and spend the rest of the day with his grandparents. Bernie could drive the Bentley back to London. So halfway through their trip, Leo pulled off at a gas station where his grandparents were waiting. It was the first time Bernie had seen anyone in Leo's family. Leo asked Bernie to act like they were just friends.

[Bernie Brown]

He went over to this couple. They must have been in their late 60s. And his granddad went to go to the bathroom. So I was like, okay, I need the toilet anyway. So I was like, I'll go. And then I went in, and then he came in after me. So I was like, okay.

[Andrea Gunning]

On the way out of the bathroom, Bernie struck up a conversation with Leo's granddad.

[Bernie Brown]

And he was like, oh, well, we live in Sussex. That's where the castle was.

[Andrea Gunning]

They chatted about life in Sussex, then headed back to their cars. Leo went with his grandparents, and Bernie drove alone back to London. Bernie was excited about starting his new life in Scotland, but his financial stress about the watch was mounting. It wouldn't be ready to resell in time for Bernie's next loan payment.

[Bernie Brown]

I'm panicking now. I had missed one direct debit. February's was coming up and it still was not happening.

[Andrea Gunning]

As the weeks went on, Bernie kept asking his boyfriend for an update on the watch.

[Bernie Brown]

The watch is being almost dangled. It's like, oh, I've. I'll bring it up. Can I. I'll come up to yours. I was like, okay, fine, I'll bring the watch. Yep. He'd get to the house, no watch. Oh, I forgot. I. I didn't go home yet. That for whatever reason, the watch would always either be forgotten or once the cleaner accidentally moved it and it was lost in the house somewhere, so he needs to go back and look for it.

[Andrea Gunning]

It was getting absurd that Leo couldn't get the watch sorted out. Sure, there was a lot happening in Leo's life, but waiting this long was affecting Bernie's.

[Bernie Brown]

There was something inside that I was questioning a lot more, but I was still hooked. I still agreed to go to Scotland with him.

[Andrea Gunning]

Just weeks before, Leo had needed Bernie to drive through the night to be there for him. Leo showed him the house he was putting an offer on. Now Bernie wasn't even getting a text or a call back for days.

[Bernie Brown]

The gaslighting started. We'd have this call, for instance, and like, what are you doing today? Let's have a call tonight. Yep, okay. And then we'd have a call, arrange something. And then he would be like, we didn't arrange it. I was like, well, we did, because, you know, I put it here I put it in my diary. I put it. No, we didn't have that conversation.

[Andrea Gunning]

Bernie knew that Leo isolated when he was stressed about his cancer or his family. Bernie wondered if things had gotten worse. But all the worrying was starting to take a toll on his own health.

[Bernie Brown]

End of January, February, and beginning of March was, and still is, to a degree, a blur. I got into the worst state of mind. I had to take time off of work for depression. I got massively depressed. I lost so much weight, I didn't eat.

[Andrea Gunning]

Bernie knew something was wrong, and he started spiraling.

[Bernie Brown]

Of course, like anyone. I went straight into he's seeing somebody else mode. Somebody else is on the scene. And I went into that whole whirlwind. I did then do something cheeky because I was like, I can't do this no more. I literally cannot do this anymore.

[Andrea Gunning]

With Leo across the country, Bernie got an idea.

[Bernie Brown]

Do you know what? I think I should download Grindr again. And with Grindr, you can change location and search for profiles within that location.

[Andrea Gunning]

So Bernie created a fake Grindr profile and set it to Leo's location.

[Bernie Brown]

Now, I knew his type. So I found a decent looking, ginger guy, put that on my profile, and I spent a good day at the location looking through profiles that didn't have pictures on. Lo and behold, he found my profile.

[Andrea Gunning]

Leo sent the first message.

[Bernie Brown]

So we're just talking. I'm like, what do you do? He's like, I'm a horologist. You know, I deal with watches. And he went straight into, you know, I'm a part of the Howard family. And then he sent me pictures. It was him.

[Andrea Gunning]

At the same time Leo was talking to fake Bernie on Grindr, he was avoiding real Bernie's texts.

[Bernie Brown]

He would reply to this person for literally about an hour, but I'm getting no reply. So I'm like, you know what? I'm done now. That's it. I need to get this watch and I need to get it soon. So I did actually confront him with it. And I was like, I know you've been speaking to people. And I sent him a screenshot of the profile. And of course he was like, how dare you tried putting it on me? And I was like, I didn't do anything. And it's like, you have no right, and went off on one. And I'm like, you know what? It's absolutely fine. Just give me the watch. That's when he turned nasty. I was like, you're not getting the watch. You don't deserve the watch.

[Andrea Gunning]

Regardless of Leo's royal status or cancer diagnosis. Bernie wasn't going to allow someone to speak to him that way. He hung up. Then Leo started blowing up his phone.

[Bernie Brown]

You know, I really love you and all of this. And what about Scotland?

[Andrea Gunning]

Bernie told him he wasn't coming to Scotland. Their relationship was over. The only thing he wanted from Leo was the watch.

[Bernie Brown]

So he's like, look, I'm gonna bring the watch. It's finally ready. I was like, oh, my God, I'm actually gonna get this watch now. And he was like, I'm gonna bring it down.

[Andrea Gunning]

They set a time and place to meet.

[Bernie Brown]

He was like, are you going to be okay seeing me? You know, it may be a strain. And I'm like, listen, I'm sure I'm going to be fine. I just. Just make sure you bring the watch. Turns up, no watch.

[Andrea Gunning]

That was the last time they ever spoke.

[Bernie Brown]

I said, enough is enough. I'm worth more than this. And I blocked his number. I had just been like, I'm never getting that watch. I need to deal with what I can, and this is the position that I'm in.

[Andrea Gunning]

Bernie says he was a shell of himself. Over the course of nine months, his entire life had been rearranged. All of his savings were gone. He had taken out loans and maxed out every credit card he had. It left Bernie in a dark place.

[Bernie Brown]

My best friends literally descended on my house and were like, we've never seen you like this, and we need to pick it up. If I didn't have my friends around me at the time, I don't know if I would actually be here. To this day, I genuinely, genuinely believe.

[Andrea Gunning]

That Bernie's friend supported him emotionally, but he was facing his financial crisis alone.

[Bernie Brown]

I had to just bow and say, I can't afford it. Default. And my credit score at one point went from the highest it ever been straight down to zero. I'd never even seen zero on a credit score before. I was working in retail and I had all this debt and the debts that were coming out on a monthly basis because of everything that happened was higher than my entire pay, let alone when you take away bills and utilities and all of that.

[Andrea Gunning]

Bernie was overwhelmed with shame. He was at risk of getting his car repossessed or his wages garnished. He was able to make a payment plan, but in the meantime, he had very little money to live on.

[Bernie Brown]

He didn't take an obscene amount of money from me, monetary wise, but what he did do was absolutely wiped me out. At one point, I didn't have the Money to go to the shop, to buy food. The monetary amount, for me, 20,000 could have easily been 5 million. It was all that I had to my name to survive.

[Andrea Gunning]

£20,000 was a drop in the bucket for Leo. After all, his family lived in a historic castle. He drove a Bentley. But £20,000 was everything to Bernie, and Leo knew that.

[Bernie Brown]

I've reminded him time and time again. He knew exactly what my financial background was, what my current financial situation was. He knew about all of that, but he still pushed to take them. Credit cards. He knew all of that was coming. And I reminded him many times every single day almost, that this is hitting. He absolutely did not care.

[Andrea Gunning]

Slowly, Bernie came to terms with his financial reality. He continued leaning on his friends for emotional support. That's when one of his friends said something he hadn't considered before. This was theft. He'd been robbed.

[Bernie Brown]

She was like, he's gonna carry on doing it to other people until somebody actually puts a stop to it. At that point, I decided that actually I will contact the police, because this isn't right.

[Andrea Gunning]

Bernie walked into the police station and filed a report.

[Bernie Brown]

They did take it seriously. I gave everything I had to them, and they had absolutely no idea who this person was.

[Andrea Gunning]

According to the police database, Leo Howard didn't exist.

[Bernie Brown]

I emailed Arundel Castle, which is the official residence of the Duke of Norfolk, and there was absolutely no record of Leo Howard, Leo Bose Howard, or absolutely anything. So then I started doing my own research. But there was absolutely no trace.

[Andrea Gunning]

Bernie knew the VIN numbers to Leo's Range Rover and Bentley.

[Bernie Brown]

All of the car registration numbers had completely been erased, which is very hard to do. I don't know how that's possible.

[Andrea Gunning]

The VIN numbers weren't listed on any database. It was like the cars never existed. But Bernie remembered riding in those cars, driving those cars. It was all so strange. He was starting to wonder what was even real.

[Bernie Brown]

It was as if I had completely imagined the entire year, completely imagined it, because this person just did not exist.

[Andrea Gunning]

Leo had vanished into thin air. Even the police had hit a dead end.

[Bernie Brown]

The police could not recognize his picture. They had to just close the investigation. It must have been a good year later. And I get a call when it comes up and it's the police officer that was originally dealing with the case. And I answered, and there was a nicer tears, you know, how are you? And then he said, do you watch Channel 4? And I said, to be honest, no. And he said, right, okay. There's this documentary that's just been shown on Channel four, and from that I've been given a case. And he said, everything that's been described in the case and on the documentary is almost identical to my story.

[Andrea Gunning]

Bernie had no idea that across the country other people had been reporting a very similar crime to the police. A broader case was developing. In fact, the story was already out as a true crime documentary. It was about a prolific and highly manipulative scam artist operating all over the uk. The detective calling wanted to know if Bernie recognized the man at the center of it.

[Bernie Brown]

He said, can you just Google and have a look? As soon as he said that, I had that sinking feeling. My heart dropped to the ground. I knew it would be him. My hand started shaking and my brain went completely dead on just how to google something. But I managed it. I got there and here was his face.

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[Andrea Gunning]

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[Asma Khalid]

America is changing, and so is the world.

[Tristan Redman]

But what's happening in America isn't just the cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.

[Asma Khalid]

I'm Asma Khalid in Washington D.C. i'm.

[Tristan Redman]

Tristan Redman in London and this is the Global Story.

[Asma Khalid]

Every weekday we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.

[Tristan Redman]

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Andrea Gunning]

A year after Bernie first went to the police, he got a call from a detective. They'd linked his report to a serial fraudster. Someone who'd been conning men and women across the UK with the same mix of charm, money and elaborate lies.

[Bernie Brown]

There was a lot of press around it and I broke down, I absolutely broke down in tears.

[Andrea Gunning]

The story had exploded. Leo's face was all over the news. After Bernie got over the initial shock, a new feeling flooded him.

[Bernie Brown]

The wave of relief. Now I have proof that it happens. Because bearing in mind at that point, the only person who had ever met him was my best friend. We went out for one night. Apart from that, he didn't want to meet anyone, he didn't want to be photographed, anyone that I told this story to. There was always, I'm sure, an element of doubt because it was so extraordinary to happen to me or to anyone. When I saw this, it was that feeling, that overwhelming, almost joyous feeling of I told you this did happen.

[Andrea Gunning]

There were dozens of articles. Bernie clicked on one about a woman who discovered her fiance was a fraud. He built a five year relationship in order to scam her out of £30,000.

[Bernie Brown]

I read the article and everything that happened to Me had happened to her.

[Andrea Gunning]

Bernie knew that the documentary might hold answers to his many unanswered questions about Leo.

[Bernie Brown]

We sat down and we watched it. And as soon as I press play, it starts with his face again. I got that sinking feeling. It was surreal.

[Andrea Gunning]

Scene after scene, Bernie realized he'd lived the same exact moments with the same con man. The luxury watch business a scam, the cancer diagnosis fake.

[Bernie Brown]

I'm heightened at that point. And the Bentley came up and I was like, that's. That was the Bentley. And the watch that I was handling and the watch that I was supposed to be buying was actually in the documentary. Just even little parts of the story. I was like, yes. He told me me that even though.

[Andrea Gunning]

It was someone else's story, it was like watching his own true crime documentary. Andy learned Leo had a dozen aliases.

[Bernie Brown]

After the documentary. I did get emotional because I think that then sunk in exactly the severity of what was happening. I was just a number at that point. Straight away, I found the woman in the documentary on social media and connected. And I remember the first message was like, you don't know me, I've just seen your documentary. And I met him such and such date she came back and we had a few telephone conversations.

[Andrea Gunning]

They had so much in common. This other victim helped Bernie fill in the gaps in his knowledge and piece together a timeline. Most shocking of all, he learned three.

[Bernie Brown]

Weeks before he had messaged me, he had actually absconded from prison. He was serving a sentence for fraud and he was on the run when he met me.

[Andrea Gunning]

Looking back, this explains something about Leo's behavior. How he was always nervous around the police.

[Bernie Brown]

He never really liked the police. He was kind of scared of the police to the point he would wait around the corner if there was police cars driving past. He was scared.

[Andrea Gunning]

When Bernie met Leo, he wasn't in that campground because it was the only place he could be himself. He was there because he was in hiding. Leo had escaped while he was serving a five year prison sentence for defrauding another victim. And there were many more. He had victims across England.

[Bernie Brown]

There was me and one other person in the north of London. All the other victims were in the south of England, in Kent, in Sussex. The person that was in the documentary was in the Isle of Wight when he escaped from prison. He had then obviously traveled and he was in hiding.

[Andrea Gunning]

What was so chilling to Bernie was.

[Bernie Brown]

That the time the documentary was being filmed was when I was with him.

[Andrea Gunning]

And Bernie wasn't the only person Leo was scamming while he was on the run. Remember Leo's grandparents who Bernie met at the gas station?

[Bernie Brown]

I told the police my story, and I said, look, I came into contact with his nan and granddad. They're like, no, that was another victim. I was like, wow, he was doing exactly the same to them.

[Andrea Gunning]

If Leo stayed behind bars, many people wouldn't have been victimized. He was a fugitive. The police were looking for him. But the problem was the police weren't as savvy as Leo.

[Bernie Brown]

Now, we do have a national database which comes up, but they didn't put him on that. So all the time that I was with him, there were actually campaigns to find this person. However, the police don't talk to each other over here. And when I had raised my case, they had no idea who it was until the documentary came out.

[Andrea Gunning]

That's when police stations across the country started connecting the dots.

[Bernie Brown]

Channel 4 had done so many press releases that it really got the national scope. And I think we're on about 10 people that have come forward and raised a case. Because of the heightened press and because all of this was going around, he decided to hand himself in.

[Andrea Gunning]

Leo was sent back to prison, and Bernie hoped justice would finally be served.

[Bernie Brown]

But he still qualified for early release. The mind boggles, but that's where we are, and that's what we have to deal with, and that's what we are currently facing.

[Andrea Gunning]

Through this whole process, Bernie was able to get a true understanding of who this man really was. He even heard from people who knew the real Leo before he became a criminal.

[Bernie Brown]

I've had so many messages over social media and TikTok where people have gone to school with him, and he used to make up stories to get people in trouble. He naturally gravitated towards fraud from a very, very early age. His background is so far from the Royal Family, it's unbelievable. From my knowledge, he is Polish heritage, very broken upbringing. And he, in all intents and purposes, created his own system to survive. And his system was to fraudulently gain money from anywhere he could to create the life that he saw himself and that he wanted.

[Andrea Gunning]

And the life he wanted was one where he was wealthy, powerful and important.

[Bernie Brown]

He wanted to be part of the Royal Family setting, and he believed that he was destined for more. He had created his own reality, and I think the longer he believed it, the more he believed it.

[Andrea Gunning]

Creating a string of fraudulent identities was more than just a dream of being rich. It was pathological.

[Bernie Brown]

Every time he created this Persona, this person, he threw himself so hard into it that he then started to believe that he was this person, and I do think there's mental issues there.

[Andrea Gunning]

It's been three years since he met Leo, and Bernie still questions what Leo's.

[Bernie Brown]

True motivations Was his intention to outright go in and commit fraud on every single person that he encountered? Or was it that his world at certain points starts to crumble and he has to get what he can do and run to create another life for himself, that other life that he's built up that is then crumbling?

[Andrea Gunning]

He thought back to their first date when he was asked to take off his clothes. Was that a test? Was it blackmail?

[Bernie Brown]

I've tried going back and be like what did happen? Why did it happen? I have absolutely no idea, but I know it comes down to control Time.

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[Andrea Gunning]

You know what all these betrayal stories I share on this podcast have in common? The feeling of I should have known that haunts every victim because there are always signs that something just isn't right. This also applies to a kind of betrayal that isn't talked about often. Sluggish digestion, constant fatigue, brain fog, trouble losing weight and poor sleep. These are all signs that your gut has turned against you, when in fact it should help you feel your best, because scientists now say it's the foundation of your vitality and overall health. And that's where bioma comes in. This novel supplement has everything you need for a healthy and thriving gut. With every serving you get prebiotics, probiotics and postbiotics that are science backed and third party tested so you can enjoy comfortable digestion, Boundless energy, better focus and restful sleep, and even smoother weight management when following a healthy lifestyle. Just take two tiny bioma capsules each morning before breakfast and start feeling your best. Visit Byoma Health and use code BETRAYAL to get 15% off your first order. That's Byoma Health. Code BETRAYAL for 15% off.

[Asma Khalid]

America is changing and so is the world.

[Tristan Redman]

But what's happening in America isn't just the cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.

[Asma Khalid]

I'm Asma Khalid in Washington D.C. i'm.

[Tristan Redman]

Tristan Redman in London and this is the Global Story.

[Asma Khalid]

Every weekday we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.

[Tristan Redman]

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Andrea Gunning]

After having his heart broken and his own financial stability destroyed, Bernie learned who Leo truly was. He was left picking up the pieces in the aftermath.

[Bernie Brown]

I don't know whether this is still my subconscious emotional tie, but I think there is an element that he had gone through so much and then he met me and he had said many a times that he was gay, he just couldn't be out. And I do believe that there's an element that I wasn't his typical target and he wasn't there initially for money. And I do believe at some point he did get emotionally connected because going after me for money wouldn't have made any sense.

[Andrea Gunning]

Bernie still wonders if that dream of going to Scotland together was a genuine offer to run away together.

[Bernie Brown]

At some point. I do believe that he thought that he could get away from it all and escape with me and live that life that he had in his mind at the time. And I think potentially once it started getting a bit too real with me, that's when he was went into what I would call default mode. And that's when the watch came, because the watch conversation came very, very late in the day and then it ended very, very quick because he had to have a new supply and he obviously he couldn't leave empty handed.

[Andrea Gunning]

Bernie's right. Leo never left empty handed. In fact, he was running a major fraud scheme and the watches were at the center of it.

[Bernie Brown]

Some businesses have come forward and said that that person had sold them a fake watch. And bear in mind, these are big companies, they know how to evaluate watches.

[Andrea Gunning]

As more information came out, he learned that Leo defrauded Harrod's department store out of a half a million pounds. It was all part of Leo's scam.

[Bernie Brown]

He was on top of his game with regards to watches, that he knew how to see a fake, a very good fake, and improve it to the level that it was a very convincing actual piece. He scammed half a million pounds out of Harrods. Like you are a different level, a completely different level when you can do that. The knowledge that Leo had on watches, watch brands, the mechanics, the mechanical workings, there's no doubt in my mind he has studied watches for a long time.

[Andrea Gunning]

Leo also knew cars. He scammed Bentley dealerships and financial institutions. He always had multiple, multiple scams going at once.

[Bernie Brown]

Absolutely. The mind boggles. I do not understand that.

[Andrea Gunning]

In February 2025, Leo was sentenced to 10 months in prison for having absconded from his original fraud conviction and five year sentence. It's unclear whether he will be criminally charged with respect to his conduct. While he was on the run, Bernie took to TikTok where he shared his story. Through that experience, he has found language to describe Leo and what he did.

[Bernie Brown]

TikTok was instrumental in me healing and starting that healing process. Somebody had commented on one of my posts and I went onto their profile and they talk about narcissist and narcissistic behavior. Everything from the signs to the results of what it actually does to you for the long term. And instantly I was like, this is exactly what he was doing. With the amount of gaslighting, love bombing, breadcrumbing, you get so heavily sucked in that it does actually change your makeup. And it changes the way you think. If you said in six months time somebody is going to be in your life and you are going to be hanging on every word. You're not going to speak to your friends, you're not going to speak to your family, you're going to doubt everything that you say. I would literally have a laugh and say, carry on drinking. It would never happen to me. But it did.

[Andrea Gunning]

He'll carry the experience with him for the rest of his life.

[Bernie Brown]

Your trust in other people after this is almost non existent.

[Andrea Gunning]

He lost a lot. But now Bernie is focused on what he does have.

[Bernie Brown]

I have a beautiful soon to be husband and I've got a little puppy and I've got amazing friends and family and actually neighbors. So I'm content. He will never ever in his life have what I have sat in this chair now and I think that's just incredibly sad. I don't hate him. I don't think too much other than just sadness.

[Andrea Gunning]

Bernie wants to be a resource for other people who've been victims of scam artists and narcissists. And the best way for him to do that is on his TikTok. Ernie Brown.

[Bernie Brown]

When I went on and I saw the tiktoks around narcissism and around the discard, the gaslighting, all of that, that for me was just the awakening moment. Now I can do that for somebody else out there. And it does take a little bit of courage, especially if you're going through it or you are very fresh from a nasty narcissistic encounter. I just want to be that point of call and be able to just listen.

[Andrea Gunning]

We end every weekly episode with the same question. Why do you want to share your story?

[Bernie Brown]

I know for a fact that there's thousands of Leos around the world. That's why this conversation, I think is massively, massively important. You know, if I'd have known about certain things beforehand, maybe I'd have acted differently. Maybe I wouldn't have gone through what I'd have gone through, maybe I'd have acted differently halfway through and I wouldn't have suffered as much. But you know what, what's happened to me is done. But if I can share and open somebody else's eyes and say, you know, if this ain't right, then it's worth it.

[Andrea Gunning]

On the next episode of Betrayal Weekly.

[Bernie Brown]

He's like, fine. I just want you to know, if.

[Asma Khalid]

You continue down this path, I will.

[Bernie Brown]

Take every single cent I have and.

[Asma Khalid]

Every single cent you have, and I will spend it burning you to the ground.

[Andrea Gunning]

If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email [e-mail] that's betrayalpodmail.com or follow us on Instagram betrayalpod. You can also connect with me on Instagramning to add to access our newsletter, view additional content and connect with the Betrayal community. Join our [e-mail] we're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group and in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning Written and produced by Olivia Hewitt and Monique Laborde Also produced by Ben Federman. Casting support from Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krynczyk. Audio editing and mixing by Matt d' Alvecchio Additional audio editing by Tanner Robbins Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Baines Music Library provided by MIB Music and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. You know what all these betrayal stories I share on this podcast have in common? The feeling of I should have known that haunts every victim because there are always signs that something just isn'. This also applies to a kind of betrayal that isn't talked about often. Sluggish digestion, constant fatigue, brain fog, trouble losing weight, and poor sleep. These are all signs that your gut has turned against you, when in fact it should help you feel your best. Because scientists now say it's the foundation of your vitality and overall health. And that's where Bioma comes in. This novel supplement has everything you need for a healthy and thriving gut. With every serving you get prebiotics, probiotics and postbiotics that are science backed and third party tested so you can enjoy comfortable digestion, boundless energy, better focus and restful sleep, and even smoother weight management when following a healthy lifestyle. Just take two tiny bioma capsules each morning before breakfast and start feeling your best. Visit Byoma Health and use code betrayal to get 15% off your first order. That's Bioma Health code betrayal for 15%.

[Asma Khalid]

Off America is changing, and so is the world.

[Tristan Redman]

But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval, it's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.

[Asma Khalid]

I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm.

[Tristan Redman]

Tristan Redman in London, and this is the Global story.

[Asma Khalid]

Every weekday we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.

[Tristan Redman]

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Andrea Gunning]

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[Andrea Gunning]

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[Bernie Brown]

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[Bernie Brown]

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