Betrayal LIVE! on Virgin Voyages

Summary

Betrayal Weekly: LIVE! on Virgin Voyages

Podcast: Betrayal: Weekly
Host: Andrea Gunning
Producer/Moderator: Monique Laborde
Date: October 30, 2025

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Overview

This special live episode of Betrayal Weekly brought together two families whose stories were featured in previous seasons, for an open, survivor-centered discussion at sea on Virgin Voyages. The conversation, moderated by producer Monique Laborde, dives into the personal, legal, and emotional aftermath of betrayal and abuse, the experience of turning real-life trauma into a true crime podcast and TV show, and the empowering journey of resilience, truth, and community among survivors. The episode offers raw, candid exchanges, guidance for others, and sheds light on themes of institutional betrayal, survival mode, and public scrutiny.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Introduction to the Panel (03:22–06:32)

• Live Format Launch:

  • Andrea and Monique introduce this first-ever live Betrayal event on Virgin Voyages, joined by Stacy, Tyler, and Mikayla (Season 3), and Caroline Braga and her children (Season 4).
  • Andrea highlights the show’s focus: “It's really a show about strength and resilience.” (05:09)

• Casting Survivor Stories:

  • Monique discusses the importance and emotional complexity of sharing such painful stories live:
  • “It's a little strange to be on stage clapping and cheering for some of the worst things that have ever happened to someone.” (06:00)

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Season 3 Family: Confronting Trauma & Sharing Their Story (06:32–21:38)

Watching Their Trauma Turn Documentary (07:15–08:40)

• Stacy on Seeing Her Life on Screen:
  • “It wasn’t our story. We were like, ooh, what's gonna happen next?...There were some moments that were tough.” (07:15)
• Tyler on Public Impact:
  • “It's really big to me that I get my story out there and I show a lot of other young men that this is not so uncommon and a lot of other men go through these struggles.” (08:03)

The Aftermath & Ongoing Legal Struggles (09:17–11:29)

• Tyler on Retaliation:
  • “He is currently suing me for defamation… It's a bunch of bullshit. I'm going to be real. I'm blunt. I'm not going to hide who I am.” (09:18)
• Andrea on Silencing Tactics:
  • “I think it was a scare tactic to try to keep Tyler from speaking… we see perpetrators try to control this story.” (10:09)
• Stacy on Perpetrator’s Lack of Remorse:
  • “Every time he does this, it’s another nail in his coffin.” (11:29)

Decision to Go Public—Family Healing & Solidarity (11:40–13:48)

• Stacy on Unity:
  • “I told him, if we do this, we do it all together. And it was just something that we felt… we needed to do for healing.” (11:40)
• Tyler’s Motivation:
  • “As a child going through all this, I genuinely thought I was the only boy in the world who knew what this was like.” (12:40)
  • “If you're a man who's been through something like this... You're not alone.” (12:40)

Scenes Left Out & the Importance of Invisible Victims (14:09–16:16)

• Andrea on Unseen Moments:
  • “We were just like, working out and talking about life… and that was, like, my favorite. And it didn’t make it to air.” (14:09)
• Mikayla as Silent Victim:
  • “I was the stronghold for our family, and...I was kind of put on the back burner.” (15:15)
• Stacy’s Recognition:
  • “All of the focus was really on, like, Tyler and his healing...it was a really good moment for us to say to you that...we were sorry.” (15:42)

Reporting Abuse – Mandated Reporter Dilemma (16:30–19:43)

• Mikayla's Experience:
  • “It was like, let's get this done. Let's do the right thing.” (16:30)
  • Describes stepping into action, handling evidence, and the shock of realizing her family’s involvement.

Family Reflections on Growth and Healing (20:03–21:41)

• Mikayla on Tyler’s Journey:
  • “Just watching him help other people is something that I can't even explain...” (20:03)
• Stacy’s Pride:
  • “There are people that are free because of you, and I'm incredibly proud to be your mother.” (20:30)
  • Humorous aside: “He still don’t take the trash out enough, though. We could work on that.” (21:41)

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Season 4 Family: Caroline Braga’s Perspective (26:58–47:49)

Initial Betrayal & Fallout (27:09–30:20)

• Caroline’s World Unravels:
  • Vivid account of finding out about her husband’s cheating, the shock, and the sudden need to inform her adult children.
  • “I was able to maintain my composure. I gently closed my laptop and then I walked out and I made it to a street corner before I just completely lost it.” (27:30)
• Nicole’s Reaction:
  • “Is daddy okay?...Did he get caught cheating on you?” (27:50)

Law Enforcement as Institution – Double Betrayal (31:00–32:02)

• Caroline’s Sacrifice:
  • “He joked and called it the Love me room because everything in there was all about him and showed all the love from the community.” (31:00)
  • Describes supporting his career, balancing family life, and the overnight loss of trust in both her marriage and the institution.

Why Their Story, & Institutional Betrayal (32:16–35:25)

• Andrea on Storytelling Choices:
  • “It was important for betrayal to focus on stories that really feel like the everyday, that feel like that could be your neighbor or your friend because it feels accessible...” (33:23)
• Monique Introduces 'Institutional Betrayal':
  • From psychologist Dr. Jennifer Freyd: It's distinct from personal betrayal — “not just grief of my nuclear family. It was grief of my community.” (35:58)

Deciding to Go Public, Family Dynamics (37:34–42:56)

• Caroline’s Internal Barriers:
  • “[Participating] was scary because I didn’t want to have this define my kids… It was really difficult for me to… call out some of my colleagues and put that on blast.” (37:55)
  • “Suck it up, buttercup. Put your head up, throw your shoulders back, and be the damn voice for women who are living in terror and shame.” (39:18)
• Kids on Owning Their Narrative:
  • Nicole: “People just assumed, or they just flat out told lies about our family. …So that was the main reason why I wanted to do this.” (39:57)
  • Son: “It takes courage to platform these stories… And the messages we receive on a daily basis… this could be us.” (40:53)

Transparency, Truth, and New Family Values (43:52–47:49)

• Andrea on Narrative Control:
  • “Joel was… planting seeds about who you were as a person...it was so much more than just the sexual misconduct…” (42:56)
• Nicole Reflects on New Core Values:
  • “We realized that we just want to be our authentic selves. And to do that comes truth and accountability and recognizing each other's paths and really just being each other's advocates.” (44:22)
• Healing as a Process:
  • “We had to go through this process of healing together. And it's a nonlinear process. …truth and transparency has to be a bedrock of a… new foundation after you face that.” (45:10)

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Survivor Camaraderie & Reflections on True Crime Media (52:22–66:17)

Survivors Supporting Each Other (52:43–54:00)

• Caroline and Stacy’s Fast Bond:
  • “Fast friends and sisterhood in this camaraderie in this crazy ass way… It's been incredible.” (52:43)
• Andrea on Community:
  • “You understand betrayal, you understand deception, and how that can really fundamentally change your sense of reality…” (54:07)

The Difference Between Life and Storytelling (55:20–58:11)

• Living the Trauma vs. the Podcast Version:
  • Mikayla: “Nothing beats actually living through it. So it's almost like you're a little desensitized.” (56:01)
  • Stacy: “Healing started with betrayal… it's been instrumental in all of our healing.” (56:49)

How True Crime Looks From the Inside (58:11–61:00)

• Mikayla's Changed Perspective:
  • “Growing up… I was like, oh, come the fuck on. …And then as this started to unravel, I was like, oh, my God, people are thinking that about me.” (58:35)
• Andrea on Red Flags:
  • “A huge part about our project is really explaining that there often are none… perpetrators are really good at hiding who they are.” (61:00)

Survival Mode, Self-Blame, and Grace (64:17–67:26)

• Stacy & Caroline on Decision-Making in Crisis:
  • “You're literally just going from one thing to another every day of trying to put out fires and make sure that your children are still eating…” (61:00)
  • “That first year was autopilot, just absolute autopilot. …You can’t beat me up any more than I beat up myself.” (64:17)
• Andrea Explains Survival Brain:
  • “The majority of these individuals are living in survival mode for a year, two years… with time and healing, you can look back and really start to process. But those are two different states of mind.” (65:52)
• Stacy on Getting Through Each Day:
  • “All you do is try to get through… to get to bed that night.” (67:26)

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Handling Online Criticism, Dark Humor, & Community Support (68:16–76:57)

• Online Criticism and Humor as Coping:
  • Mikayla: “We make it a joke… instead we can just laugh about it.” (68:43)
  • Tyler: “About 85, 90% of the time, that troll has about third grade grammar, or you can tell they didn't finish the show…” (70:04)
  • Stacy: “Comments on the podcast really, really got me. And I decided…if people had to hate me for his story to get out…that I was okay taking that.” (70:43)
  • Caroline: “Is that Barnes & Noble that carries that Amazon Prime? So I didn't have that.” (72:33)
  • Stacy: “Let's be horrified at the people who did the crime. Yep. Let's be horrified.” (75:05)
  • Caroline: “It's comments like those that keep people silent. So you are a part of the problem, and you are damning the solution.” (75:30)

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Advice for Future Podcast Subjects (75:41–76:57)

• Caroline: “Don't read the comments.” (75:50)
• Mikayla: “Don't be afraid… Don't be afraid. Tell your story. Scream it from the mountaintops.” (75:54)
• Tyler: “Not a damn person face to face has made fun of me for what has happened to me. …I don't think that's something you have to worry about.” (76:34)

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Audience Q&A Highlights (81:50–86:49)

• Caroline on CSPD's Institutional Betrayal:
  • “There’s so much more to the story that you would just fall out if you knew… a very, very high ranking female… actually turned my ex husband in for sexual harassment… nothing was done.” (82:22)
• Stacy on Trust Post-Betrayal:
  • “It's hard to ever trust somebody again. I mean, you lay next to somebody for seven years ... and they're completely someone that you had no idea.” (83:12)
• Nicole & Caroline's Son on Breaking Contact with Father:
  • “He didn't come to my high school graduation, and he didn't come to this… so then it's like, why worth trying.” (84:57)
• Support from Audience:
  • “I think you are amazing mother. My mom did not believe me. And when I watched the episode, I was screaming at the TV because I was like, yes, mama. Yes, you go.” (85:36)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Tyler (on the power of speaking out, 08:03):

  • “I get my story out there...and I show a lot of other young men that this is not so uncommon.”

• Stacy (on the defamation suit, 09:55):

  • “His lawyer told me, you have to have character to say a defamation of character. And we've clearly proven that you don't have character.”

• Andrea (on survivors’ rights, 10:09):

  • “Oftentimes we see perpetrators try to control this story. And I think he was used to being in control for a really long time.”

• Caroline (on institutional loss, 35:58):

  • “I didn't just lose my nuclear family. I lost my extended family within the law enforcement community. And… it was just vanished.”

• Caroline (on why to go public, 39:18):

  • “Put your head up, throw your shoulders back, and be the damn voice for women who are living in terror and shame to discuss this.”

• Nicole (on reclaiming the family narrative, 39:57):

  • “People just assumed, or they just flat out told lies about our family...so that was the main reason why I wanted to do this.”

• Andrea (on red flags, 61:00):

  • “There often are none, because perpetrators [are] really good at hiding who they really are.”

• Stacy (on piecing it together, 61:00):

  • “It's like this puzzle…and when you get to the end, then you’re like, oh, and then the puzzle...becomes clear.”

• Caroline (on criticism, 75:30):

  • “It's comments like those that keep people silent. So you are a part of the problem, and you are damning the solution.”

• Mikayla (on advice, 75:54):

  • “Don't be afraid...Tell your story. Scream it from the mountaintops. It's better to do it that way instead of live in fear.”

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Timestamps for Significant Segments

• Show and guests introduction: 03:22–06:32
• Reflections on seeing their stories broadcast: 07:15–08:40
• Legal struggles and defamation: 09:17–11:29
• The decision to participate in the podcast: 11:40–13:48
• Reporting abuse as a family member: 16:30–19:43
• Institutional betrayal and law enforcement culture: 35:25–37:55
• Discussion on truth, transparency, and family dynamics: 43:52–47:49
• The impact of dark humor in healing: 68:43–70:43
• Advice for survivors considering telling their story: 75:41–76:57
• Audience Q&A: 81:50–86:49

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Conclusion

This live episode shines a light on the deep wounds that betrayal and abuse inflict, but also emphasizes the importance of telling one’s story, reclaiming agency, and building supportive communities with other survivors. It offers honest discussion on legal retribution, institutional complicity, the reality of surviving in crisis, and advice for other survivors. The families’ commitment to truth and healing—combined with a healthy dose of dark humor—provides a powerful blueprint for resilience and breaking the silence around taboo subjects.

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Transcript

[Stacy]

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[Stacy]

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[Tyler]

Storm in a sewer.

[Stacy]

That was dumb. Do not follow my example. Listen to Crimeless Hillbilly Heist on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Caroline Braga]

I live below a cult leader and.

[Stacy]

I fear I've angered her. Wait a minute. Sophia, how do you know she's a cult leader? Well, Dakota, luckily it's I'm Not Afraid.

[Caroline Braga]

Of a Scary Story week on the OK Storytime podc.

[Stacy]

So we'll find out soon. This person writes, my neighbor has been.

[Caroline Braga]

Blasting music every day and doing dirt rituals and now my ceiling is collapsing.

[Stacy]

I try to report them, but things keep getting weirder. I think they might be part of a cult.

[Caroline's Son]

Hold up a real life cult.

[Stacy]

And what is a dirt ritual? No clue, Dakota.

[Caroline Braga]

Find out how it ends. Listen to the OK Storytime podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever.

[Stacy]

You get your podcasts.

[Andrea Gunning]

Hi everyone, it's Andrea. This week we're doing something a little different. My producer Monique and I spent last week at sea with Virgin Voyages where we produced Betrayal's first ever live show. Stacy, Tyler and Mikayla From Betrayal Season 3 joined us as well as Caroline and her kids from season four. If you listen to our show, you know that Stacy's husband Justin pled guilty to sexual abuse of a minor, including his abuse of his stepson Tyler. And in season four, Caroline's husband Joel was caught having sex in his police patrol car. He had carried on multiple affairs during their marriage, including some that happened while he was on duty. Together we had an incredible conversation about Survivor centered true crime and what it's like to have your real life turned into a true crime podcast. It's an emotional and in depth conversation about the kind of work we do and what it means to the people who are at the center of it. We hope you enjoy. Hi everyone, I'm Andrea Gunning. I am the host and producer of Betrayal.

[Monique Laborde]

I'm Monique. I'm a producer on Betrayal. I'm going to be moderating tonight so that Andrea can really be in the conversation because she has poured her soul into this show and she's also been a leader in the podcast industry bringing this show to tv, which we're on. Season three of Betrayal on Hulu just.

[Andrea Gunning]

Came out last month. When I started this show in 2019, I didn't know if one person would listen, if two people would listen. I could have never imagined being on a cruise doing our first live show. I know it's really crazy for those of you that don't know what Betrayal is. It's a project where we focus on families whose lives have been upended due to devastating betrayal and we focus on the crime and the aftermath. But it's really a show about strength and resilience. And so tonight we're gonna focus on Two families. The family from season three, which is Stacy, Tyler and Mikaela's story, and the family from season four, about Caroline Braga and her kids.

[Monique Laborde]

For a lot of the Survivors we're going to bring out tonight, this is their first ever time talking about their story to a live audience. And it's a little strange to be on stage clapping and cheering for some of the worst things that have ever happened to someone.

[Mikayla]

It can kind of feel like that.

[Monique Laborde]

You know, true crime cruise, but. But we're really here to celebrate the Survivors and the bravery and courage of these families to tell their stories, and that's what we're celebrating.

[Andrea Gunning]

So without further ado, let's all welcome Stacy, Tyler and Mikayla.

[Monique Laborde]

Hey, y'. All. How are you doing?

[Mikayla]

How you feeling?

[Stacy]

Good, good.

[Caroline Braga]

Amazing.

[Monique Laborde]

A little nervous, you know, Stacy, the documentary came out a month ago. It seems like a lot of people here are already familiar with your story, are listeners of betrayal. So I want to start with what it was like for you to see your. I see you're emotional right now, what it was like to see your life played back on a true crime documentary.

[Stacy]

I don't think it was something that I ever thought would happen. It was a little different seeing it. I know me and Tyler have had conversations like it wasn't our story. Like, we were like, ooh, what's gonna happen next? Like, we didn't know. But, yeah, there were some moments that were tough. I think when they went back to the good times or the good times that we thought were. They were a little hard. We were lucky to kind of sit through each other's interviews. So the things that we talked about were not new to us when the documentary came out because we got to sit and be a part of that with each other. So that was good. I think that helped us to kind of prepare for what was going to be on tv.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah. Tyler, what about for you? What was it like to see it all together, watch it back?

[Tyler]

I mean, kind of just like similar to what my mom said. A lot of just like, ooh, this looks good. It isn't our story, but really the biggest thing for me was just finally seeing it in person and, like, knowing that people would see my face. With me being so young and everything I had been through, it's really big to me that I get my story out there and I show a lot of other young men that this is not so uncommon and a lot of other men go through these struggles. So it was a really good moment for me. I was really happy to See it in real time.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah. And you've already experienced people reaching out to you after the documentary.

[Tyler]

Yeah. I mean, it's. When it first came out, it was. I couldn't even keep up with all the messages. I mean, there was hundreds a day and still, what, two months later at this point? I probably get at least 5 to 10 today, which is still pretty crazy. I've had businesses hit me with job offers to work at a gym as a personal trainer. I've had some pretty big celebrities hit me up to continue telling my story and do some pretty big things. So I'm excited for that.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah, we're all so excited for you and proud of you. I want to talk about updates since the documentary came out.

[Andrea Gunning]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

So my stepfather, who you all saw in this documentary, he is currently suing me for defamation. Yeah, yeah. Defamation. I made it all up. Yeah. Suing me for defamation because everything I said was a lie. I wish I could show you all the papers. It's a bunch of bullshit. I'm going to be real. I'm blunt. I'm not going to hide who I am. Thank you, guys. Yeah. But he. He wants to sue me for coming out and talking, but I hope he knows all that does is motivate me to keep coming.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah. Andrea, do you want to talk about that a little bit about the defamation lawsuit and like, the ways that we see those being used, I think, to manipulate a lot of times, storytellers and try to silence people from telling their story. Survivors?

[Andrea Gunning]

Yeah. I just think it was a scare tactic to try to keep Tyler from speaking. And, you know, oftentimes we see perpetrators try to control this story. And I think he was used to being in control for a really long time. And, you know, you've got a great attorney and you're working on it.

[Tyler]

Yep.

[Stacy]

You know, his lawyer told me, you have to have character to say a defamation of character. And we've clearly proven that you don't have character. So, you know, everybody's a jailhouse lawyer, so we knew this was gonna happen. He's filing appeals as well because he's throwing anything at the wall to make it stick and whatever. He's trying to appeal his sentence because it was too long. Boo hoo. We know that this is something that we're probably gonna have to deal with for the rest of our lives because that is his right, I've been told. But, you know, in the end, he just constantly keeps burying himself because the district attorney told me the more appeals you file, the more it looks like you show no remorse. So she said, every time he does this, it's another nail in his coffin. So we fully intend that he's gonna put himself there for his maximum sentence.

[Monique Laborde]

We're gonna bring your oldest daughter Mikayla in in a second, but I wanna talk about the family decision to participate in first the podcast and then the Hulu documentary.

[Stacy]

When they reached out to me about the podcast, I immediately talked to Mikayla and Tyler about it, because it's not my story, it's all of our stories. I wasn't going to exploit my child by going out and speaking without his knowledge. So I told him, if we do this, we do it all together. And it was just something that we felt, I think, that we needed to do for healing. And just. We wanted to take something like this and turn it into something good. And we knew that that was the only way that we could do it was to just make people more aware. Because I think when you first have this happen to you, you have so many people come up to you and say, oh, my gosh, you know, that was. That happened to me or that happened to my brother or this. And you don't. You have no idea how many people you know that have dealt with the same thing. I think we have a lot of broken people in this world, and I think it's because a lot of people stay silent about these things. So I think our hope was that we could reach a lot more hurting men and just change the world.

[Tyler]

Yeah, pretty much second that. But, yeah, going into all this, it was just about. I knew what I had been through, you know, searching the web, looking things up. As a child, going through all this, I genuinely thought I was the only boy in the world who knew what this was like. And I thought I was the only boy in the world who had went through something like this. And that was a big part of the reason why I never talked. I never did anything to make a change, because I thought this was just my life. This was where I was stuck. No one would understand me. But as I've gone throughout this journey, I've shared my story, talked to endless people. I've realized it's an epidemic. To be honest, it's crazy the amount of men that I've realized who have went through the exact same things I have. They say it's one in six, but with all the people I've talked to, it's probably even higher than that. I wouldn't be surprised if it was more one in four, one in three. You're not alone. If you're a man who's been through something like this, and when I was represented the opportunity to come through, do this, use my story to give other men what I didn't have, I couldn't pass it up.

[Monique Laborde]

Andre, you've worked on this story now two years more, almost. So, you know, a big part of production. We spend hours and hours and hours and hours. A lot of those moments never make it to air. Especially with the Hulu documentary you're filming, a lot of things that never make it to air. So can you tell me about some of those moments?

[Andrea Gunning]

Yeah, I mean, there was one scene that we shot Tyler, and that was my favorite scene to do. I hate even calling it a scene, but it was. And we were just, like, working out and talking about life and where you are now. And I've known you for two years, and you've grown so much. And I think one of the things that you were working on is learning to stop thinking about life in the conditional way. Like, if I do this, then I'll be happy. If I get here, I'll be happy. If this happens, I'll be okay. Because that's what happens when survivors of abuse, they go through that. Because that exchange is conditional. It's transactional. And I feel like you've come such a long way to just be present and figure out who you want to be and do what you want to do. And we talked about that in the scene, and that was, like, my favorite. And it didn't make it to air, I think. Mikayla, you have a scene, too, that you love.

[Mikayla]

Yeah, I had a scene. Tyler made a comment to me about how he was very thankful for that I was, like, the stronghold for our family, and that he was very sorry that I was kind of put on the back burner. Like, it was just very sweet, very emotional moment that I think a lot of people needed to see. And that got cut, too.

[Stacy]

Mikayla's kind of. I don't want to say a silent victim, but I think that, you know, all of the focus was really on, like, Tyler and his healing and what happened to him. And it was a really good moment for us to say to you that, you know, we were sorry that you kind of got faded into the background a little bit, because that was never anyone's intention, you know? So it was a sweet moment between everybody, and we were really sad when the documentary came out. We were like, man, that was such a good moment.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah. Like your mom was saying, you know, you're part of this story. Can Sometimes get overshadowed. But if it was not for you, we might not be sitting here. So can you tell me a little bit about reporting to the police, what that experience was for you?

[Mikayla]

Yeah. So for those of you that didn't listen, Tyler's friend, who is, I guess we'll call him for lack of better terms, the first victim, he reached out to me and disclosed to me that my stepdad had done this to him. And, like, full disclosure, I was driving and I opened the message and immediately started, like, bawling. And of course, like, 40 million things are going through my head. One thing being, this is why you don't text and drive. But, I mean, so I pulled over, had like a two minute cry, and then I was like, work mode. At the time, I worked at an outpatient psychiatry office, so I was like a mandated reporter. And so I immediately went to work mode and was like, okay, these are the steps I need to do, and I'm going to do them. I do not care that he is my stepdad. I don't care who the fuck he is. And now the scary part, I guess, for me was that this was different. At work, I just make a report. But here he was already under investigation for the cameras. And so I was like, okay, I feel like I need to talk to a detective or something. Like, I don't know, it was just like something in my brain didn't care that he was a father figure to me. It was like, let's get this done. Let's do the right thing.

[Monique Laborde]

And then that next few hours moved really quickly.

[Mikayla]

Yeah, so I drove about an hour and a half or so to the police station. And then when I got there, I gave them my phone. They took all the evidence off of it, all the messages with his friend. And then they were like, oh, well, while you're here, let's go through this binder. And they opened it, and it was photos of friends, family, anything you can think of in the bathroom. They had me identify everybody. And then they whipped out another binder, and that binder was all me. I saw my husband on some photos. And then after that, I left. I called mom immediately. She's like, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm leaving work, I'm grabbing my kids and we're going. And I was like, well, I have a tiny little one bedroom apartment, but you could stay with me. Poor Tommy. He didn't even know any of this because it was like, so fast. Everything's happening that I didn't get time to tell him until he was already off work. And I was like, hey, by the way, mom and the kids are coming to our tiny little surprise.

[Caroline's Son]

Right.

[Mikayla]

Like our tiny little 900 square foot, one bedroom apartment. I worked from home for a few days, tried to help mom with the kids, tried to figure life out, and then Tyler came forward.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah. We're going to talk more about that time period and kind of like survival mode and how that gets represented in true crime stories. But I also want to talk about your position as the eldest daughter and Tyler's big sister. Can you tell me from your perspective what it's been like to watch Tyler's journey of coming forward and then getting to the place where he is today?

[Mikayla]

Yeah, absolutely. Just watching him help other people is something that I can't even explain to anybody what kind of feeling that is inside as somebody who was his caretaker for a long time.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tyler]

Well, thank you.

[Monique Laborde]

What about for you, Stacy, Watching Tyler go on this journey over the past few years with the show? What has that been like for you as a mom?

[Stacy]

I don't think anybody can ever understand what betrayal did for us. You know, we had a lot of people say things like, you know, gosh, why would you want to share that? Or why do you want to go national with that and this and that. And I had those moments, especially when people can be very cruel online and judge. But I think seeing him grow and also just seeing the men that have came behind him and said, you know, I'm 50 some years old and I've never told anybody this in my life. There are people that are free because of you, and I'm incredibly proud to be your mother. And I don't care what anybody says, and I don't care, you know, if someone thinks I did something wrong. I think I did things wrong. I promise you, if I was watching my documentary, I would have been like, girl, I would have talked shit about myself. It's true. You know, when you're in those kind of moments, you know, you're just coming from a place of just sheer chaos. But I'm just incredibly proud to be your mom.

[Tyler]

Well, thank you, guys.

[Stacy]

He still don't take the trash out enough, though. We could work on that.

[Tyler]

She's lying.

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[Andrea Gunning]

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[Stacy]

All I know is what I've been told and that's a half truth is a whole lie.

[Maggie Freeling]

For almost a decade, the murder of an 18 year old girl from a small town in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved until a local homemaker, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Stacy]

I'm telling you, we know Quincy killed her.

[Maggie Freeling]

We know a story that law enforcement used to convict six people and that got the citizen investigator on national tv.

[Stacy]

Through sheer persistence and nerve, this Kentucky housewife helped give justice to Jessica Curran.

[Maggie Freeling]

My name is Maggie Freeling. I'm a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist producer and I wouldn't be here if the truth were that easy to find.

[Stacy]

I did not know her and I did not kill her or rape or burn or any of that other stuff.

[Monique Laborde]

That y' all said.

[Stacy]

They literally made me say that I took a match and struck and threw it on her.

[Monique Laborde]

They made me say that I poured.

[Stacy]

Gas on her.

[Maggie Freeling]

From Lava For Good. This is Graves County, a show about just how far our legal system will go in order to find someone to blame America.

[Stacy]

Y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people in small towns.

[Maggie Freeling]

Listen to Graves county in the Bone Valley feed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Andrea Gunning]

Hi everyone, I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal, and I'm excited to bring you a brand new season of Betrayal Weekly. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of betrayal season 1, 2, 3 and betrayal weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season four ad free and one week early through the I Heart True Crime plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus you'll get access to other char topping true crime shows you love like the Real Killer, the Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone, South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, the Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple podcasts, search for IHeartrue Crime plus and subscribe today. Welcome back. We took a short break to bring out Caroline Borga from Season four along with her two kids. Her daughter Nicole was on stage and her son participated from the audience to protect his anonymity.

[Monique Laborde]

Thank y' all so much for being here.

[Caroline Braga]

Thank you for having us.

[Monique Laborde]

Caroline. You know, I want to hear a little bit in your words about what you went through.

[Caroline Braga]

It was an infamous Monday afternoon. I was at work and I opened my laptop and I was in an online meeting and I saw my phone go off. There was a chime and I saw that there were cameras around our house and that there was some movement. And as I looked at it, I noticed that my now ex husband was dragging up the trash cans and I thought to myself, oh, that's strange. I wonder what he's doing home so early. Maybe he was out on an investigation or something happened and he just ran by to grab some lunch and I continued to watch and then it dawned on me, where's his take home cop car? The take home cop car wasn't in the driveway and so I texted him and I said, hey, is everything okay? And he didn't respond and hey, is everything okay? I noticed that you're home really early. And I just continued to watch the little dots, the three ellipses on my phone bounce. And finally he responded and he said, no, everything's not okay. I fucked up the worst I've ever fucked up in my life. You're going to want to divorce me. And I was scared and I thought, you know what happened? And so after several attempts, he finally answered the phone and he was very stoic about it and just let me know what he did. And I was able to maintain my composure. I gently closed my laptop and then I walked out and I made it to a street corner before I just completely lost it. And I said, what have you done? And he just emphasized repeatedly, I'm sorry. I'm so sorry, Caroline. You have to tell the kids. Reporters are going to start calling the house. You have to tell the kids. And I didn't know what to do. I drove home. I. I don't remember driving home. And when I got to the house I was just kind of pacing. And Nicole came home and she was very jovial, her typical self. And she said, hey, who doing my job for me? Who brought the trash up today? I mean, it's ironic the stuff you remember in times of trauma. And I just sat there staring at her and she said, are you okay? And I said no. And she said, is daddy okay? And I didn't even know how to respond and I just said no. And she got kind of this shock because when you're a cops kid, you live in fear that something happens to your dad. And the next words out of her mouth were, did he get caught cheating on you? And I just stared at her. And for those of you who have listened to the podcast, I can assure you my son graduated with honors from a very prestigious university. But she did call him because we didn't have the rule book or a handbook on how you handle when a disclosure like this happens. And she said, hey, I gotta talk to you, it's an emergency. And he said, hey, I'm getting ready to take a chem exam. And she was like, no, it's an emergency. So again, I can assure you he did pass. Everything is fine. Next thing you know, our life was just a whirlwind and a snowball and I went into autopilot and trying to make sure that I could have some form of normalcy and just get by.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah, yeah. I want to talk a little bit about your husband's career as a police officer. And you specifically as his partner for 25 years, sacrificed so much personally to give him those advancements in his career, those late nights that you were taking care of the house and the kids, and a big part of your value system was believing in what he did and the institution he worked for. And that changed for you overnight. So can you talk a little bit about what that experience was like and where you're at with that today?

[Caroline Braga]

Absolutely. My ex husband was a very decorated service member for the community. And we had a room in our home, our office, that were filled with just community and commanders commendations. He joked and called it the Love me room because everything in there was all about him and showed all the love from the community of him. I knew when I married a cop what I was getting into. I'm not an anomaly of someone who marries into a law enforce family. I made a sacrifice of knowing that I was going to have to be with the kids alone at night and I would be the person who would be aerating the field when I'm walking across to take them to practice and to dance class and that it would be something that would be busy and I didn't sacrifice everything for me. I too have a career and, you know, do use my brain and my degrees, but I knew that I would be the person who would be able to have more flexibility to be there for our family and would also be the person who would be able to support. Support him and his career as well.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah, yeah. You know, your career is something that your job has asked you not to talk about. Otherwise we would love to have featured it in the podcast and have it be a part of who you are on the show. But we understand and we want you to keep your job.

[Caroline Braga]

So thank you. I really appreciate that.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah. Dre, can you talk a little bit about Caroline's story and why it stood out to you as with the season you wanted to produce next?

[Andrea Gunning]

Yeah. I mean, it started off as a potential story for the weekly series. So you were actually working with Caroline directly, which is a little bit different.

[Mikayla]

Yeah.

[Andrea Gunning]

And we were just talking about it in a production meeting and there was research we had to do, and we had to find these IA files on Joel Internal Affairs.

[Caroline Braga]

Thank you.

[Andrea Gunning]

And we finally got them back, and there was so much there. And we said to each other, this can't just be a weekly. We need to do 10 episodes on this story.

[Monique Laborde]

It's very rare working in media to get internal affairs investigations, audio files from police investigations. And so we said, you know, this is something that we need to follow. Yeah, yeah.

[Andrea Gunning]

And so that was the beginning of Everything. And you had already had a relationship with Mo. And I'm like, hi. You know, and, you know, we get this question a lot, like, why this story? And I oftentimes, especially from law enforcement, like, I've seen so much. This isn't the worst case ever. You know, it's important for betrayal to focus on stories that really feel like the everyday, that feel like that could be your neighbor or your friend because it feels accessible, and then we can understand it. And that's why I thought your story was important to share.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah, absolutely. So I want to talk to you. Nicole. Hi. Hi. You're the one who originally found betrayal. So in a lot of ways, you're another reason we're here on stage.

[Nicole]

Yes. You're welcome.

[Monique Laborde]

What has it been like for you to watch your mom over the past three years? You know, since your dad's actions came to light, but also this past year in particular, producing the podcast.

[Nicole]

She's always been such a, like, independent and powerful woman. So seeing her go through the 2022 year, which was, you know, infamous year, that was, of course, really hard because she just wasn't herself. But ever since we kind of got our footing as a new family, a family as three, she's really grown into someone that people go to, whether that's women that have experienced cheating and whatever else, or even women in our own police department where this happened, come to her as, like a source of comfort and be a person that people can lean on.

[Monique Laborde]

Caroline, before I want to ask some questions to both of your kids, but before we do, I want to talk a little bit more about the institutional betrayal of the police department, because that was also a place where you put a lot of time and energy in and I think expected some support back. Institutional betrayal is a term we recently learned from this research, psychologist Dr. Jennifer Fried. And it's a different experience than the interpersonal betrayal you had with your ex husband. And I want to talk a little bit about how that felt different, what that felt like.

[Caroline Braga]

Sure. It's a phenomena when you're in a law enforcement family. And I can say without making a big disclosure, I work in a very closely law enforcement related field. And when you're a part of a law enforcement family, law enforcement tends to hang out with law enforcement. These were people who were at the births of my kids. They showed up shortly thereafter with gifts. We did family functions together. We celebrated together. There was law enforcement lined up in our wedding party. My ex husband's groom's cake was a pig with a badge on. It. So this was our life, and it was a big piece of it. And I can tell you that you become fiercely protective of each other. And I had this big belief that, yes, there are bad apples in every organization, but they're few and far between. I would chant that. So to myself, I was extremely protective over other law enforcement families, and you just become this big unit together. And as my ex husband's double life began to unravel, I lost all that. So I didn't just lose my nuclear family. I lost my extended family within the law enforcement community. And. And it was just vanished. My facade of what I had tried to raise my kids to believe about law enforcement and trusting law enforcement, what I believed about it completely vanished. So it was just not grief of my nuclear family. It was grief of my community.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah. You know, like Andrea said, we first started working together, and I remember in the beginning, about a year and a half ago, before we did our very first interview, you were understandably very cautious about participating in this. So can you tell me a little bit about what you were weighing when you were deciding, do I want to tell this story publicly?

[Caroline Braga]

It's not the most comfortable feeling to reveal the most private details of your life. And I was really struggling with how I wanted to approach this. I was living in this silence and this constant internal thought of, oh, my gosh, how did this happen to me? How did this happen? And I think that's really why the podcast drew me in so much. There's an episode in season one where it's the very first time I ever heard the term betrayal trauma, betrayal therapy. And I am not too proud to admit it. I listened to that episode at least a dozen times. I just resonated with me so much, and it was just really, really difficult to really imagine putting myself out there. It was scary because I didn't want to have this define my kids. It certainly has shaped them, but it certainly does not define them whatsoever. And I work in a law enforcement related community, so this was really difficult for me to, in essence, call out some of my colleagues and put that on blast. But, you know, I remember those conversations very, very well. And I would love to go back and tell myself, oh, my God. Suck it up, buttercup. Put your head up, throw your shoulders back, and be the damn voice for women who are living in terror and shame to discuss this.

[Monique Laborde]

Hell, yeah. Wow. I want to pivot to Caroline's son in the audience and have you two talk as her children. I mean, you know, you have said that this was a Family decision. And I remember when you were weighing if you wanted to do this, a big part of it was, I gotta talk to my kids. I gotta make sure my kids are okay with this. So I want to hear about what those conversations were like with y' all as a family about, are we on board with this? Are we going to participate? Are we going to support our mom in this? What was that like for y'?

[Mikayla]

All?

[Monique Laborde]

Nicole, do you want to start?

[Stacy]

Yeah.

[Nicole]

So when my mom first came to us discussing the possibility of us doing the podcast and going forward with everything, I, of course, wanted my mom's narrative out there, our family's narrative out there. Because we were so silent, people just assumed, or they just flat out told lies about our family. And, of course, my dad's presence in my town didn't help with that. So that was the main reason why I wanted to do this, or we wanted to do this as a family unit, to just put our voice out there and say, we're solidified in our new sense of reality, and this is how we're going to move forward. And even though all of this happened, we came out on the other side stronger.

[Caroline's Son]

I think it boils down to two main reasons. I think seeing the effect that the podcast had on both my mom and my sister and the value that they got from it, I think that was huge. I also think that it takes courage to platform these stories, and it takes courage to tell these stories. I think people need to hear them. And the messages that we receive on a daily basis of people saying what we said, listening to the podcast initially, this could be us. And so I think it's important to let people know that you can go through these unfortunate circumstances, to say the least, and make it out on the other side.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah. And I think that, Caroline sun, the way that we have navigated your privacy and your participation in this show, you know, shows that there are different ways that you can incorporate different members of the family that have different comfort levels with their exposure. So can you talk a little bit about why it was important for you to be a voice on the show and participate actively?

[Caroline's Son]

Well, you have these prominent community members and law enforcement and other related fields just saying blatant lies about my entire family. And obviously, that didn't sit right with any of us. And so it's not about getting the truth where it's not about getting our truth out there. It's literally just the truth out to the community, and that was a part of it. And I think also just this experience brought us Closer together. And I think that having a unified front, and I'm appreciative of the accommodations to my privacy requests and all that, but being a unified front was huge, and I'm honored to be a part of it, and I'm proud of them.

[Andrea Gunning]

I think what people often forget is, aside from the affairs, what Joel was doing was planting seeds about who you were as a person, as a wife, as a mother, behind the scenes. So if he ever did get caught by a colleague, they would say, well, could you blame him? Like, he was creating a story about you and, you know, putting your reputation on the line. So it was so much more than just the sexual misconduct within the cspd. It was how he was using you and your image and what you've done for your family against you so that he could just get away with it. And that's, I think, really important, because when we started working together, you're like, I want my truth to be told, because he took that away from you.

[Monique Laborde]

He really did. You know, truth and transparency has become a theme of the family that y' all have rebuilt with the three of you. And so I want to talk about what that looks like when you have two adult children and you're saying, now we're pivoting new family, and we're going to reconvene and make new values. So what does it mean to have truth and transparency be such a big value in your family?

[Caroline Braga]

I think I'm going to let my kids take that one.

[Nicole]

Well, going off of this like new family, everything happened in April. And then after that, we recognized that little things in our family we just kind of let slide, as I'm sure many other families can relate. Like, certain fights that we had or behaviors or whatever else we just didn't want to bring up. And so moving forward with my mom, my brother, and myself, we realized that we just want to be our authentic selves. And to do that comes truth and accountability and recognizing each other's paths and really just being each other's advocates.

[Caroline's Son]

And we had to go through this process of healing together. And it's a nonlinear process. It doesn't get better every single day. There's good days and bad days. We still have good days and bad days. We're still healing. But I think it's the understanding of we're in it together, and we're going to go through this together for the rest of our time here. And I think that was important, too. And part of that, after facing so many lies and such profound deception and having that all come to light. Obviously, truth and transparency has to be a bedrock of a, of a new foundation after you face that.

[Caroline Braga]

The other piece that I had to face was the fact that certain things I tried to not say and at one point this one here looked at me and said, do not lie to me anymore. He lied to us enough and it's our turn to be able to make choices on if we're going to show up to something or do something. Do not lie to me like he did. So I said, you have my word, from here on out, no more.

[Monique Laborde]

Andrea, I want to talk a little bit about institutional courage, which we as a production team encountered this term, this year. And we've seen it in both of these families.

[Andrea Gunning]

Yeah, I mean, family is an institution and it takes courage to lead with truth and transparency to make sure these things don't happen in the future. And so I think by you guys sharing and knowing what was actually happening so you can make your own choices, that takes institutional courage. And you know, obviously there's the CSPD of it all. There are a lot of people inside CSPD that has known what Joel has been doing for a really long time, but were too afraid to speak out because they didn't want to throw a name out there and have backlash. So, I mean, it takes courage to come forward, but what's happening and what we researched at CSPD is that's not happening. And so hopefully by bringing awareness of what's going on with the misconduct, someone will do the right thing.

[Anna Bay Advertiser]

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[Stacy]

All I know is what.

[Andrea Gunning]

I've been told, and that's a half.

[Stacy]

Truth is a whole lie.

[Maggie Freeling]

For almost a decade, the murder of an 18 year old girl from a small town in Graves County Kentucky went unsolved until a local homemaker, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Stacy]

I'm telling you, we know Quincy killed her.

[Maggie Freeling]

We know a story that law enforcement used to convict six people and that got the citizen investigator on national tv.

[Stacy]

Through sheer persistence and nerve, this Kentucky housewife helped give justice to Jessica Curran.

[Maggie Freeling]

My name is Maggie Freeling. I'm a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist producer and I wouldn't be here if the truth were that easy to find.

[Stacy]

I did not know her and I did not kill her or rape or burn or any of that other stuff.

[Monique Laborde]

That y' all said.

[Stacy]

They literally made me say that I took a match and struck and threw it on her. They made me say that I poured gas on her.

[Maggie Freeling]

From Lava for good. This is Graves County, a show about just how far our legal system will go in order to find someone to blame.

[Stacy]

America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people and small towns.

[Maggie Freeling]

Listen to Graves county in the Bone Valley feed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava For Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Stacy]

Season one of Crying Wolf is here. We're thrilled to keep sharing these jaw dropping stories with you. And now there's even more to discover. With an I Heart True Crime plus subscription only on Apple Podcasts, you'll unlock 100% ad free listening on Crying Wolf and other fan favorites like Atlanta Monster, what Happened to Sandy Beal and Sympathy Pains. Don't wait. New episodes are ready for you now. Open Apple Podcasts, search iHeart True Crime plus and subscribe today.

[Mikayla]

Hey, it's Anna, host of the Girlfriends Jailhouse Lawyer. You can listen to this brand new season now plus all episodes of the Girlfriend Season 1, Season 2 and the Girlfriend Spotlight. Plus. If you have an I Heart True Crime plus subscription, you'll get episodes completely ad free and one week earlier than everyone else. And because the Girlfriend's Jailhouse Lawyer has been selected as one of Apple's Summer Listens, we're offering you a free 30 day trial. It's a limited offer, so make sure you grab it before it's too late. Once you're all signed up, you'll get access to some of iHeart's other chart topping true crime shows like Betrayal, the Godmother, Burden of Guilt, American Homicide, and loads more. Head to Aval Podcast, search for IHEART True Crime plus and subscribe today.

[Andrea Gunning]

Welcome back. We're sharing the audio from our first ever Betrayal Live show, we're talking with Stacey Tyler and Mikayla from Betrayal season three, and Caroline Borga with her two kids from season four. One of our Betrayal producers, Monique, moderated the event, so I'll throw it back to her.

[Monique Laborde]

All right, so I want to transition to talking as a big group, and I want to start just by talking about what it's like to be in person together. This was a little exciting experiment that we were asked to participate in, and we didn't know how it would go. So what has it been like? You know, you've had very different experiences, but you've also had a core similarity.

[Caroline Braga]

I can tell you that after the first episode aired, I received an email from one of the producers who said, hey, Stacy wants to talk to you, and she's asking if we can share your information. Is that okay? And I said, you sure? And Fast Friends and sisterhood in this camaraderie in this crazy ass way. And it was like trial by fire. And she was like, don't do X, Y, and Z. Don't read X, Y, and Z. Do this.

[Stacy]

She did.

[Caroline Braga]

And it's been. I felt like I knew her before we even stepped on the ship. It's been incredible. And. And I'm very grateful for you.

[Stacy]

Yeah, I feel the same way. We, you know, we've had a bond that I think we'll always, you know, always have. I'm sure Ashley and Jen and all them feel the same way. There's a lot of these get this shit text message.

[Mikayla]

You know, and you.

[Stacy]

Can'T make this up, like, you know, especially with a lawsuit, you know, I was like, oh, my God, girl, get this. But, yeah, it's been incredible, and we've made so some really great, great memories on this trip and just really incredible people.

[Monique Laborde]

What's it been like for you, Dre, to see everyone come together and also meet listeners?

[Andrea Gunning]

I think it was you who mentioned we should do, like, a retreat or, like, a girls weekend. And I was like, hell, yeah. But then this came about, like, a few weeks later, so maybe this is a trial run. And it's actually really great because you understand betrayal, you understand deception, and how that can really fundamentally change your sense of reality and make you question yourself and the decisions that you made, especially in moments of survival and just trying to get through the next day. Like, I just need to wake up, get my clothes on, and get out the door, and those little things you guys can relate to on a very, you know, specific level. And so I knew you Guys would hit it off. This has been such a joy, and I think it's just a testament to our community and it growing.

[Stacy]

It was either going to be this, or we were going to crash Andrea's wedding. I was like, I don't know if you know, but I'm coming. Even if I got to sit at a little table outside and just peek in. She was like, oh, no, we're having a whole betrayal table.

[Andrea Gunning]

We are.

[Monique Laborde]

I want to talk about the experience of actually living through what y' all have been through versus the product that we see at the end. The, you know, what is it in total? 5 hours of audio or 3 hours of video that is so different from what you actually lived through. And so I want to open it up to y' all to talk about what was a surprise to you and what was difficult to see or maybe really rewarding to see, but a little bit more about what it was like to see the things you had really gone through. Turned into a true crime podcast, a true crime docuseries.

[Mikayla]

I think I could start with that. It actually wasn't too bad because I have to be honest, nothing beats actually living through it. So it's almost like you're a little desensitized. But I think the hardest part for me was the recreation of the scene where Tyler tried to kill himself. He had called me at the time, and I was two and a half hours away. And so, like, watching the reenactment, which I am well aware was dramatized, and there was actors, but, like, just feeling that again, that I could have lost him, that really messed with me for a little bit.

[Stacy]

I think for. For us, it was. It was an incredibly healing experience that I don't think we realized was going to be what it was even when we watched it or listened to the week's episode, because, like I said, it's almost like you're listening, listening to someone else's story, even though it is yours. And we would just sit down afterwards and we'd be like, that is crazy. These questions that they think of that just would get you thinking of things. And then we would go on these almost therapy sessions, you know, our car rides home because we went up to Pennsylvania to film. It was about a three hour drive. These three hour car rides we would spend having, like, our own little therapy session, you know, so for us, you know, we're incredibly thankful to you because I think healing started with betrayal. So, you know, you may not have thought that it was gonna do anything or one people or two people. Was gonna listen to it, but I can tell you that it's been instrumental in all of our healing. Completely. I don't know, you know, you probably feel the same way.

[Caroline Braga]

Absolutely.

[Monique Laborde]

Has participating in betrayal, in this production changed the way you think about true crime content? Like, when you go to consume a podcast, watch a podcast, watch a podcast, listen to a podcast, or watch something, has it changed the way you approach that and think about it?

[Mikayla]

I know for me, it definitely has. I grew up watching Dateline 2020 true crime. Mom's been joking all weekend or, well, however many days we are now in, but she's been joking this whole time. Like, you know, oh, kids, watch Barney. Michaela is watching Dateline.

[Stacy]

She wanted a Keith Morrison baby doll.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah.

[Mikayla]

So, you know, growing up as a teen, early 20s, all that, you know, I watch these true crime documentaries and I'm like, oh, come the fuck on. Like, you knew, like, don't get out of here. And I would judge now. I wouldn't go to social media and talk about it, but I would think that. And then as this started to unravel, I was like, oh, my God, people are thinking that about me. And so now when I watch true crime documentaries or listen to podcasts, like, I have, my mindset is so different because in reality, you guys only get, you know, this tiny little sliver of what happened. And on top of that, like, you're getting all the information. You know, detectives, policemen, judges, you know, the whole family. Like, everybody's giving stories, but we didn't have that. You know, we were day by day figuring it out. And so now, like, when I watch these shows, I have to remember, like, they probably didn't know. They didn't have all this ready made, you know, little Kraft Mac and cheese cup ready for them. You know, they had to go out and make the noodles. And so I think it's just really changed so much of, like, how I view other true crime docu series.

[Andrea Gunning]

One of the questions I get a lot are, were there really any red flags? And a huge part about our project is really explaining that there often are none, because perpetrators like Justin Joel really good at hiding who they really are. And so I think when audiences watch true crime and they have those thoughts, Mikayla. I think it's a form of safety. Like, I would see that if it happened to me, and that's often not the case. And that's why we are so open about not knowing. Because you didn't. And why would you even think that your husband could do what he did? Why Would your brain go there? So that's a huge part about betrayal.

[Stacy]

Ashley put it really good in hers, and it became so clear to me when she said it. She said, you know, it's like this puzzle, and you have all these pieces, and in 2015, you might have got this red flag. Then in 2017, you might have got this. And when you're taking it over a course of the, you know, Justin, I were together seven years. I don't think you didn't think back to something like, oh, let me put it together with that red flag. You know, let me start collecting the flags. You know, when it. When you get to the end, then you're like, oh, and then the puzzle, it becomes. It becomes clear. It becomes a puzzle. But, you know, in this moment, you have a blue piece and a red piece and a yellow piece, and nothing matches. And then they start to make you think that you're crazy for feeling this way. And I know for me, Justin would, you know, do things to me, like, if there was something I was bothered by, you know, by him, it would just be like, well, you know, if that's the kind of husband you think I am, maybe we should get divorced. And for anyone who knew me personally, being a wife was something I took pride in. I took pride in being a good wife. I loved being a good wife. And when he would say those things to me, instantly, I would kind of come crawl inside myself and think, you are a terrible, terrible wife. How can you think this about this man who's great to your kids, provided a good home to you, gave you this life? And so he would take that and manipulate it. So there's so much more than just, oh, well, you know, you missed red flags. Well, yeah, there's red flags now, now that you've told me. I mean, like, you know, I look at photos now that when I took them, I was just like, oh, these are such sweet moments. And they make me sick now because I see them in a different way. That was probably one of the hardest things for the documentary was to see the photos of him and Tyler hugged up together that I used to think were sweet moments of just a man loving my kids, you know, like a father should, to now realizing how disgusting they were. So it's, you know, you have to give a little bit of grace. I think I'm the same way with Mikayla is now. You know, I've run my mouth I don't know how many times, and now if I'm watching TV on, you know, a documentary, and I'M like. And then I, like, sit back and I'm like, wait a minute, you know, I don't know her story. I don't know his story. You know, So I think we got to give people a little bit of grace and realize that in these moments when you're trying to navigate, you know, there's, like Caroline said, there's a part of my story no one knows as well that I wasn't really allowed to share, and I don't give a shit about sharing it right now is I was also sued civilly by the boy's parents who found the camera. So while this was all going on, you know, civil attorney, criminal attorney, divorce attorney, I lost my home. You know, and you're literally just going from one thing to another every day of trying to put out fires and make sure that your children are still eating and not just only pop tarts, you know, I mean, it's the truth. You just cannot. You make the best decision you can at the moment. And did I screw up? Yeah.

[Caroline Braga]

I can tell you that first year was autopilot, just absolute autopilot. I just wanted to get by. And, you know, anyone who's posted anything on Reddit or anything else, you can't beat me up any more than I beat up myself. I have questioned myself. I question everything about every decision I ever made. You know, there's an episode called. It's essentially the split screen episode Revisionist History. And you hear my entire 25 year relationship with my ex husband in the span of 38 minutes, and I tell you every single thing now in those 38 minutes that now I have a consultation concern about and I question all the time. And I did that for that first year. And you don't really know. It's like the analogy of the frog in the pot. You don't know that it's boiling until you're out. And I can see that it's boiling now that I'm out.

[Monique Laborde]

I want to talk a little bit more about survival mode with you, Dre, because that's something we talk about all the time. And really trying to understand and tell these kind of stories, we often have to tell the story of that. We have to tell that story of the survival mode year and all the choices that were made in that year. But it is so difficult to convey that experience that you all had. We can't make a year long podcast. We can't really be in your head, but can you talk about, like the survival brain, the logic brain, and the ways that we try to make content that helps people understand that survival mode.

[Andrea Gunning]

I think one of the first questions I asked you, Stacy, when I came to visit you was, like, when you would wake up in the morning after everything happened, what was your first thought? Because when something horrible happens and your life is falling apart, just opening your eyes and realizing, no, I'm actually here. This is actually happening. This is my real life, and I now have to get up and face the day. And so I remember talking to you about that. And I think it is important to give people grace and know that when this happens, they are literally just trying to get through their day and make a ton of decisions, legally, financially, groceries on the table, like, it is really hard. And then with space and if you work at it and you see a psychologist and you have your community and your family, you can slowly transition into the analytical brain and really sit with what happened. Think through how. How it's occurring for you. And we just want to show our audience that those are two different experiences and that the majority of these individuals are living in survival mode for a year, two years, you know, and then with time and healing, you can look back and really start to process. But those are two different states of mind.

[Stacy]

Oh, yeah. I mean, you wake up and it's just, you know, life doesn't stop. Your bills don't stop, Your work doesn't stop. You know, so you're navigating all this stuff while still having to make sound, rational decisions. And you open your eyes and you're like, jesus, another. You know, like it's another day. And all you do is try to get through. To get to bed that night. You know, I just. If I can make it to bed, if I can just make it to, you know, where I can go to sleep, I'll just go to sleep, and I'll wake up and it'll be different tomorrow. And then you wake up and it's another day. Day. And it's just. Yeah, it's just. But it's a. It's a vicious cycle, and. And living in that survivor moment, you know, you don't make the greatest of decisions. I mean, you just can't. You can't. You do the best you can with what you have at the moment.

[Monique Laborde]

I think that's one thing that makes the online comments feel so unfair and so hard for us. We have to track them as part of our job, is that we're tracking the comments we get. And some of them are so personal and so vitriolic. And I think, obviously it says more about the Commenter than any of y'. All. So, you know, I'm curious how you handle that, because I think that would make me short circuit at this point.

[Mikayla]

We make it a joke, but, like, somebody at one point made a comment at one, like, on, I don't know, TikTok or something and said like, oh, that sister of his, she's just so conceited. And, you know, she thinks, like, she's the shit. And I was like, well, first, you know, yeah, I'm confident, but secondly, like, okay, you know, not trying to sound ridiculous, but if I was so conceited and, you know, didn't care about my brother, he wouldn't have gotten a whole arm tattoo for me. So good for you that you thought that.

[Stacy]

We'll send each other messages. I'll be like, how you doing today? You getting seated, bitch?

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah.

[Mikayla]

So, you know, now we just turn them into jokes, and it's just a way to, you know, just laugh about it because, you know, hurt people, hurt people, and it's nothing we can do. I can't help them. But instead we can just laugh about it. And I know Tyler and I even made a whole TikTok video addressing a lot of the questions and mean comments that we were getting specifically about our mom. And I think that helped a lot.

[Stacy]

Clear up a lot of things, really.

[Tyler]

About 95% of the comments on, like, the stuff I make are pretty positive. And then there's like, the 5%, like, troll. But to be honest, about 85, 90% of the time, that troll has about third grade grammar, or you can tell they didn't finish the show because they don't know shit about what's going on and they're just saying whatever. So I just kind of ignore the trolls. If it's something that bad, I'll delete the comment. Like, if it's on my own stuff, just because I don't want, like, other survivors to see that them to be discouraged. But me, myself, I just tell them, you know, you can go fuck yourself. That's me. I don't care.

[Stacy]

Yeah, we have a lot of. I don't know if y' all noticed, we have a lot of dark humor. Humor is what carried us through a lot of this. Some people are uncomfortable with that. But the comments on the podcast really, really got me. And I decided when the documentary was gonna come out that if I had to be the martyr in this, that if people had to hate me for his story to get out and for his healing to come, that I was okay taking that and That I really didn't give a shit because I know my truth. And, you know, we have an incredible relationship. You know, I know Caroline got a lot of shit about, you know, telling her children. I think it was out, you know, noble that you made it a point not to lie to your children. We have to be honest with our children. We have to tell our children things, hard things. I know I questioned myself a lot. Did I tell, did I talk about hard things with my children when they were little of, you know, that people can do these kinds of things to you. So I was incredibly proud of you for telling your children and being truthful. I know I had a lot of people with my littles that was just like, just tell him he died. I'm like, I wish he would die. I wish that was the truth, but it's not the truth. And I'm not gonna lie to them. You know, I tell them in little bits, but, you know, so, I mean, going back to the comments, but you know, at the end of the day, yeah, you just have to, you just kind of have to separate that. But our way of dealing with that is joking. And we're, we can be pretty nasty. Like, like Tyler said, we're like, they're probably in their mom's basement in a beanbag chair eating Ch Cheetos. You know, like, we just have to, you just have to do it. It is what it is.

[Caroline Braga]

Yeah. I didn't listen to their advice and, you know, with some of the things that were said, it's just very evident that there's a lot of people who clearly have read a manual that I haven't. I mean, whatever the title of that book is that says, hey, when your high ranking police officer husband blows up your lives and reporters are getting ready to come to your door, and then he moves out to the family rv, loses his job and relocates. Here's what you should do. Is that Barnes Noble that carries that Amazon Prime? So I didn't have that. And I, you know how to make decisions quickly, financially, personally, emotionally. I had to make decisions as a parent and I was doing the best I could with it. I didn't have a 3 and 4 year old, so this wasn't like I could somehow make a story up and, you know, discuss it like the two ferrier Santa about why dad didn't live with us anymore, he was no longer a police officer, and that we were preparing for reporters to show up at the door. I didn't have the ability to be able to make something up and lie to them or tell a story or. Or dance around it. I had to be very direct. Very, very, very direct. And that's something that was difficult. It was hard. It wasn't easy for me by any stretch of the means, and it wasn't easy to have these really blunt discussions with my kids. And I will tell you on a different note, you know, we. We do cope with dark humor. We were. My son and I were golfing not too long ago, before we came on the cruise, and he just. He hit this ball of Country Mile, and it just was gone. And he was like, yep, that ball left me like my dad. So, I mean, we. We say sideways stuff all the time, and that's how we cope with it. And that's really dark for a lot of people and hard for people to hear, but it's what we do. And, you know, there are a lot of things that occurred in our lives where it was so hard to have these tough discussions with them, but we had to have the discussions in order for us to get through. And having them both say, do not lie to me. If something's going on, prepare us. Do not lie to me. It was hard. It wasn't easy. It was not. It was not something that I would wish on anyone. So, you know, for those of you or anyone who, you know, who does have that manual, tell them I'm proud of them, and I'm so grateful that they're able to navigate it a lot better than I did. I did the best I could. And the other thing I'll say about it is that there in some of the comments, people were like, I am horrified, you know, that she had this discussion with her kids. I'm horrified. I had to have the discussion with my kids.

[Andrea Gunning]

Absolutely.

[Stacy]

Let's be horrified at the people who did the crime. Yep. You know, let's be horrified.

[Caroline Braga]

Absolutely. And I do want to say that. That, you know, Stacy saying that. I do want to say the part that makes me so sad about some of those comments and some of the feedback that I've received from women who have thanked me for us telling our stories is that it's comments like those that keep people silent.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah.

[Caroline Braga]

So you are a part of the problem, and you are damning the solution.

[Mikayla]

I like that. Yeah.

[Monique Laborde]

What advice would y' all give to someone who was considering becoming the subject of a true crime podcast?

[Caroline Braga]

Don't read the comments.

[Mikayla]

I would have to say, don't be afraid. As I started seeing messages that Tyler was getting and I was getting and mom was getting and the betrayal podcasts were getting. You know, I'm like, wow, if we all would have lived in fear, these people may not have ever had that and may not have ever come forward, may not have ever said their peace. And that's really sad. And so don't be afraid. Tell your story. Scream it from the mountaintops. You know, it's better to do it that way instead of live in fear.

[Tyler]

People might say stuff online, but like I said, that's like the very odd select few. I can tell you. Not a damn person face to face has made fun of me for what has happened to me. And I don't think anybody has the balls to because they know that's not right. So really, I don't think that's something you have to worry about.

[Andrea Gunning]

Let's take another quick break and we'll come back to finish the conversation.

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[Stacy]

All I know is what I've been told and that to have truth is a whole lie.

[Maggie Freeling]

For almost a decade, the murder of an 18 year old girl from a small town in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved until a local homemaker, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Stacy]

I'm telling you, we know Quincy killed her.

[Maggie Freeling]

We know a story that law enforcement used to convict six people and that got the citizen investigator on national tv.

[Stacy]

Through sheer persistence and nerve, this Kentucky housewife helped give justice to Jessica Curran.

[Maggie Freeling]

My name is Maggie Freeling. I'm a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist producer and I wouldn't be here if the truth were that easy to find.

[Stacy]

I did not know her and I did not kill her or rape or burn or any of that other stuff.

[Monique Laborde]

That y' all said.

[Stacy]

They literally made me say that I took a match and struck and threw it on her. They made me say that I poured gas on her.

[Maggie Freeling]

From Lava for good. This is Graves County, a show about just how far our legal system will go in order to find someone to blame.

[Stacy]

America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people and small towns.

[Maggie Freeling]

Listen to Graves county in the Bone Valley feed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to lavaforgood plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Mikayla]

Hey, it's Anna, host of the Girlfriend Jailhouse Lawyer. You can listen to this brand new season now, plus all episodes of the Girlfriend Season 1, Season 2 and the Girlfriend Spotlight Plus. If you have an iHeart True Crime plus subscription, you'll get episodes completely ad free and one week earlier than everyone else. And because the Girlfriend's Jailhouse Lawyer has been selected as one of Apple's Summer Listens, we're offering you a free 30 day trial. It's a limited offer, so make sure you grab it before it's too late. Once you're all signed up, you'll get access to some of iHeart's other chart topping true crime shows like Betrayal, the Godmother, Burden of Guilt, American Homicide, and loads more. Head to Apple podcasts, search for iHeart TrueCrime plus and subscribe today.

[Stacy]

Hey Law and Order fans.

[Maggie Freeling]

I'm Anna Sega Nicolasi, host of Law.

[Stacy]

And Criminal Justice System.

[Maggie Freeling]

I'm here to let you know that.

[Stacy]

We'Re launching our second season, this time focusing on the evolution of terrorism in the United States, both domestic and international.

[Maggie Freeling]

We're going back to the the beginning, looking at how and why terrorism became so prevalent and how law enforcement pivoted to help combat it. I'm excited to share with you the new season of Law and Order Criminal Justice System and want to let you.

[Anna Bay Advertiser]

Know that you can get access to.

[Stacy]

All episodes of season one and season.

[Maggie Freeling]

Two 100% ad free with an iHeart.

[Stacy]

True Crime plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Apple Podcasts plus you'll get early access to special bonus episodes of the.

[Maggie Freeling]

New season, so don't wait.

[Stacy]

Head to Apple Podcasts, search for I Heart True Crime plus and subscribe today.

[Monique Laborde]

We wanted to take some audience questions. Are there any audience questions? We have a few that have been brought in.

[Stacy]

Oh, we have one, yes.

[Mikayla]

So this is more for Carolyn.

[Stacy]

I listened to the whole podcast and CSPD is probably the second biggest betrayal. How can they get away with it? And it's not just Joel. It's the other people in the department and they came forward with it and they still. I mean, how it got to the.

[Caroline Braga]

Point where he was able to retire even.

[Stacy]

How do you even get past that?

[Caroline Braga]

I wish I had a solid answer for that. And I looked over at Andrea when you were asking that question. There's so much more to the story that you would just fall out if you knew. I can tell you one of the scariest things on the internal affairs tapes without broaching legal concern is that a very, very high ranking female in the police department actually turned my ex husband in for sexual harassment and nothing was done. It's sickening to hear. It's really, really sad.

[Stacy]

We can move to any place we want in the country. That's one place we would never move to.

[Caroline Braga]

It is beautiful though.

[Stacy]

Hi, I have a question for Stacy. How has your definition of trust changed? I trust very few. I work on that a lot. I know that I have a really filthy mouth. I call myself a spicy Christian. I love Jesus, but I cuss. And it's the truth. It's something that I think I have had to pray about because I don't trust people. And it's really hard for me because I am such a trust. I was such a trusting person. But you know, when people tell me things, most of the time I'm like, you're lying. Or you know, I always kind of think like, what next? You know, I analyze kind of what people say and stuff. It's hard. It's hard to ever trust somebody again. I mean, you lay next to somebody for seven years that you think, you know, and you roll over one day and they're completely someone that you had, you had no idea, you know, so it's hard. I think someday there'll be somebody that'll come along maybe. You know, I pray for money instead of a husband these days. I really would just rather have money so I can go on cruises. But yeah, you know, it's a daily task to work on. Hi. First of all, I want to say thank you for coming out here and sharing your story. It's very, very courageous. But I want us to ask the siblings, so being so young and naive to how evil people can be, have you ever been guilt tripped for cutting your father off or no longer speaking to your father? Has anybody ever said, oh, give him a second chance, your father, et cetera, et cetera?

[Caroline's Son]

Only in the comments of Spotify.

[Nicole]

Yeah, I think like what people don't realize is like our dad was a funny human being and we liked Being around him. So when it first all happened, my brother and I were calling him up and asking all these sorts of questions. And then it came to the point where, like, he didn't come to my high school graduation, and he didn't come to this and that and this. So I was like, if he wasn't going to come to the big events, he's not going to come to the daily events. And so then it's like, why Worth trying.

[Stacy]

Hi, this is for Stacy.

[Caroline Braga]

This is not really a question.

[Stacy]

It's more of a comment. I just want to tell you that I think you are amazing mother. My mom did not believe me. And when I watched the episode, I was screaming at the TV because I was like, yes, mama. Yes, you go. So I just want to tell you thank you.

[Caroline Braga]

Thank you for being you.

[Stacy]

Thank you for that. Thank you for that. I appreciate that. Yeah, I can't imagine not believing my children. I mean, people gave me shit online. Like, what took her so long to leave? I was like, shit. It happened on a Saturday. I filed for divorce on Tuesday. Like, with no proof. No. The abuse had not even come out. He had not even come forward yet. And I was just like, that's some whack ass shit. That's not happening in my house. We can file for divorce. It was three days that I was just like, I was willing to give everything up. And it was never about the money. It was never about the nice house we lived in. I didn't give a crap if you worked at Sheets. Yeah. You know, it was three days before I was just like, you know, I'm believing what I'm being shown right now, you know? Yeah.

[Maggie Freeling]

Well.

[Monique Laborde]

Well, our time is over. And I wish we could stay talking in front of this group because it feels really, really wonderful to be here and to have this out in the public. It feels really special.

[Andrea Gunning]

Yeah. Thank you guys for coming. This show means so much to everyone here on stage and it's been a joy. So thank you so much for coming.

[Caroline Braga]

Thank you.

[Tyler]

Thank you, guys.

[Andrea Gunning]

Thank you for listening. A special thank you to the listeners who came with us on the cruise. Meeting all of you was such a delight. Thank you to iheart and Virgin Voyages. And as always, thank you to our storytellers. On the next episode of Betrayal Weekly.

[Stacy]

This was my best friend.

[Caroline Braga]

This was somebody who was in my.

[Stacy]

House every single day. This is somebody who I told all my secret to.

[Mikayla]

She did this because she wanted to.

[Stacy]

She did this because she likes to manipulate. She did this because she likes the control.

[Andrea Gunning]

If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team or want to tell us your Betrayal story, email [e-mail] that's betrayalpodmail.com or follow us on Instagram etrayalpod. You can also connect with me on Instagram andreaGunning to access our newsletter, view additional content, and connect with the Betrayal community. Join our [e-mail] we're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Monique Laborde Also produced by Ben Federman. Associate producers are Kaitlin Golden, Olivia Hewitt and Kristin Melchuri. Casting support from Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krynczyk. Audio editing and mixing by Matt d' Alvecchio Additional audio editing by Tanner Robbins Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines Music library provided by My Music and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tyler]

Foreign.

[Maggie Freeling]

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[Stacy]

What's that sound? That's the sound of downy unstoppable scent beads going into your washing machine and giving your clothes freshness that lasts all day long. There it is again. It's like music to your ears or more like Music to your nose. That freshness is irresistible. Let's get a Downy Unboxing Unstoppables bottle shake. And now a sniff solo. Nice. With Downey Unstoppable, you just toss wash. Wow. For all day freshness. Hello, America's sweetheart. Johnny Knoxville here. I want to tell you about my new true crime podcast, Crimeless Hillbilly Heist from Smartless Media, Campside Media and big Money Players. It's a wild tale about a gang of high functioning nitwits who somehow pulled off America's third largest cash heist.

[Caroline Braga]

Kind of like Robin Hood, except for.

[Tyler]

The part where he steals from the.

[Stacy]

Rich and gives to the poor. I'm not that generous. It's a damn near inspiring true story for anyone out there who's ever shot for the moon, then just totally muffed up the landing. They've still $17 million and had not bought a ticket to help him escape. So we're saying like, oh God, what do we do? What do we do? That was dumb. People, do not follow my example. Listen to Crimeless Hillbilly Heist on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Caroline Braga]

I live below a cult leader and.

[Stacy]

I fear I've angered her. Wait a minute, Sophia, how do you.

[Andrea Gunning]

Know she's a cult leader?

[Stacy]

Well, Dakota, luckily it's I'm not afraid.

[Caroline Braga]

Of a scary story week on the Internet. Ok Storytime Podcast, so we'll find out soon.

[Stacy]

This person writes, my neighbor has been.

[Caroline Braga]

Blasting music every day and doing dirt rituals and now my ceiling is collapsing.

[Stacy]

I tried to report them, but things keep getting weirder. I think they might be part of a cult.

[Caroline's Son]

Hold up A real life cult.

[Stacy]

And what is a dirt ritual? No clue, Dakota.

[Caroline Braga]

Find out how it ends. Listen to the OK Storytime podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever.

[Stacy]

You get your podcasts. This is an I heart podcast.