Beyond Betrayal: The Making of Season 4

Summary

Betrayal Weekly Episode Summary: "Beyond Betrayal: The Making of Season 4"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Betrayal Weekly
• Host/Author: iHeartPodcasts and Glass Podcasts
• Episode Title: Beyond Betrayal: The Making of Season 4
• Release Date: August 5, 2025
• Description: Hosted by Andrea Gunning, Betrayal Weekly delves into real-life stories of broken trust, deception, and resilience. This episode offers an exclusive behind-the-scenes look at the creation of Season 4, featuring insights from the production team.

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Introduction

Andrea Gunning opens the episode by introducing a special video conversation with the Season 4 production team. This debriefing, originally recorded for their Substack community, provides listeners with an in-depth exploration of the storytelling process, challenges faced, and personal impacts of creating the latest season.

Timestamp: [02:46]

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Meet the Production Team

The team members introduce themselves, laying the groundwork for a collaborative discussion:

• Carrie Hartman - Producer of Season Four
• Monique Laborde - Story Editor
• Kaitlin Golden - Associate Producer
• Tana Robbins - Audio Editor
• Andrea Gunning - Host and Producer

Timestamp: [04:24] - [04:46]

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Challenges in Season Four Production

Andrea begins by addressing Tana Robbins, highlighting Tana's approach to editing without prior knowledge of the story to maintain freshness and objectivity.

Tana Robbins explains the excitement and complexity of handling extensive audio material, emphasizing the unique access to firsthand accounts and confidential files from the Colorado Springs Police Department.

Notable Quote:

Tana Robbins (05:20): "Having audio from those people and their interactions with Joel gives you a lot to work with... putting the story together as if I'm a listener."

Timestamp: [05:20] - [07:14]

The team discusses pivotal moments in the season, such as the confrontation scene between Joel and an aggrieved husband, where authentic audio recordings add depth and reality to the narrative.

Notable Quote:

Tana Robbins (07:14): "We get audio where we get to hear it. We get to hear exactly how it went down."

Timestamp: [07:14] - [10:22]

Kaitlin Golden shares a behind-the-scenes story about almost losing a crucial audio file, which turned out to be integral to the season's arc.

Notable Quote:

Kaitlin Golden (10:27): "It was this insane in-the-moment tape... integral to how we are where we are now."

Timestamp: [10:27] - [11:09]

Carrie Hartman highlights Tana's emotional engagement with the material, noting his genuine reactions as a sign of compelling storytelling.

Notable Quote:

Carrie Hartman (11:43): "Tanner was, like, so emotive about these things. We knew we were telling a good story."

Timestamp: [11:43] - [12:29]

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Exploring Institutional Betrayal and Police Misconduct

Monique Laborde introduces the concept of betrayal trauma, emphasizing its relevance to the season’s narrative. She underscores the importance of featuring Dr. Jennifer Fryd, an expert in betrayal trauma, to provide psychological context to the stories covered.

Notable Quote:

Monique Laborde (16:32): "Dr. Fryd is the godmother of betrayal trauma... without her, we wouldn't have this cultural understanding."

Timestamp: [16:32] - [18:22]

The team reflects on expanding the storyline to include broader patterns of misconduct within the Colorado Springs Police Department, moving beyond the central figure of Joel to explore systemic issues.

Notable Quote:

Monique Laborde (19:23): "We shifted focus from Caroline's story to a larger pattern of behavior... a larger perspective."

Timestamp: [19:23] - [24:13]

Kaitlin Golden discusses the challenges of building trust with whistleblowers like Claudia Aldrich, whose cooperation was pivotal in uncovering deeper layers of misconduct.

Notable Quote:

Kaitlin Golden (20:55): "Gaining her trust and getting her to see that we are people who would honor her story was really difficult."

Timestamp: [20:55] - [23:57]

Monique Laborde elaborates on the importance of institutional betrayal, comparing it to a "second concussion," where institutional disbelief compounds the initial betrayal experienced by individuals like Caroline.

Notable Quote:

Monique Laborde (27:13): "The metaphor she used about the second concussion... really helpful to illustrating the point of the loss Caroline experienced."

Timestamp: [27:13] - [28:33]

Andrea Gunning ties these themes to societal questions about truth and trust in law enforcement, pondering the implications of officers' ability to lie within their roles.

Notable Quote:

Andrea Gunning (28:33): "What does lying by those in uniform mean for my basic civil liberties?"

Timestamp: [28:33] - [30:13]

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Building Relationships with Story Subjects

Carrie Hartman shares insights into developing a rapport with Caroline, despite initial challenges in gaining her trust after she had already confided deeply with another team member.

Notable Quote:

Carrie Hartman (31:23): "We spend real time together, meeting family and friends, which helped build trust."

Timestamp: [31:00] - [34:44]

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Emotional Impact and Coping Mechanisms

The team discusses the emotional toll of working on intense and heavy stories. Each member shares their personal strategies for managing stress and maintaining emotional well-being:

• Carrie Hartman relies on compartmentalization and, occasionally, indulging in comfort drinks.

  Notable Quote:

  Carrie Hartman (35:29): "When I can't compartmentalize, I break out the Chianti."

  Timestamp: [35:29] - [36:09]

• Tana Robbins acknowledges his struggles with anxiety, stemming from past experiences on true crime shows.

  Notable Quote:

  Tana Robbins (36:10): "I worked on a true crime show where I started some anxiety medication because I was just getting too paranoid."

  Timestamp: [36:10] - [37:08]

• Andrea Gunning admits that the stories influence her personal life, particularly her views on relationships and trust.

  Notable Quote:

  Andrea Gunning (37:23): "It's impacted how I approach finances and really big decisions about bringing fully together."

  Timestamp: [37:23] - [38:16]

• Kaitlin Golden finds solace in gratitude, appreciating the resilience of the storytellers and the honor of helping them share their experiences.

  Notable Quote:

  Kaitlin Golden (38:16): "Centering a deep sense of gratitude... makes our work feel a lot less heavy to me."

  Timestamp: [38:16] - [39:41]

• Monique Laborde emphasizes the balance between empathizing during interviews and maintaining a clinical perspective during editing.

  Notable Quote:

  Monique Laborde (39:41): "Once I'm seeing it in a script, I feel a little more clinical about it."

  Timestamp: [39:41] - [41:19]

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Looking Ahead: Future Seasons

The conversation shifts to upcoming seasons, with Monique Laborde and Kaitlin Golden teasing the focus of Seasons 2 and 5.

• Monique Laborde announces the release of Season 2 on August 7th, promising compelling new stories of resilience.

  Timestamp: [42:52] - [43:37]

• Kaitlin Golden previews Season 5, set to launch in mid-January, highlighting themes of caregiving betrayal and challenges with the legal system.

  Notable Quote:

  Kaitlin Golden (43:50): "It's a story about what happens when the person who is caring for you turns out to be the one causing you to suffer."

  Timestamp: [43:50] - [44:32]

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Conclusion

Andrea Gunning wraps up the episode by commending the team for their dedication and hard work on Season 4. She encourages listeners to connect with the Betrayal team via email and social media, and to support the series by subscribing and leaving reviews.

Notable Quote:

Andrea Gunning (44:32): "I've loved every second of working on this season with you guys. Thank you for listening to Betrayal Season Four."

Timestamp: [44:32] - [46:14]

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Key Takeaways

• Behind-the-Scenes Insights: The episode provides a comprehensive look into the collaborative efforts of the production team in crafting a compelling season focused on betrayal and institutional misconduct.

• Emotional Resonance: The team members openly discuss the emotional challenges of handling heavy subject matter, highlighting the importance of personal coping mechanisms and support systems.

• Expansion of Narrative Scope: Season 4 broadens its focus from individual betrayal to systemic issues within the Colorado Springs Police Department, emphasizing the pervasive nature of institutional misconduct.

• Future Direction: Teasers for upcoming seasons indicate a continued exploration of complex betrayal stories, maintaining the series' commitment to deep and impactful storytelling.

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For more exclusive content, behind-the-scenes discussions, and community interactions, join the Betrayal Weekly Substack community here.

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This summary is intended to provide an engaging and comprehensive overview of the "Beyond Betrayal: The Making of Season 4" episode for listeners and non-listeners alike, capturing key discussions, insights, and memorable quotes from the production team.

Transcript

[Andrea Gunning]

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[Andrea Gunning]

Hey, everyone. Andrea here with something special for you today. What you're about to hear is a conversation I had with my Betrayal production team producer Carrie Hartman, story editor Monique Laborde, audio editor Tana Robbins, and associate producer Kaitlin golden on how we went about making season four of Betrayal. We sat down as a team and debriefed a postmortem, if you will. Only this time, we recorded it and launched a video on our new community, Beyond Betrayal, exclusively on Substack. In this conversation, we get into the nitty gritty details about how we conducted our reporting, the relationships we've built with our sources, and how working on this season impacted each of us personally. You'll hear about the moments that shocked us, the challenges we faced, and why we made some of the bigger storytelling decisions we did. These are the kind of conversations we're having on Beyond Betrayal. If you like this, please consider subscribing to Beyond Betrayal, exclusively on Substack. It is completely free and you'll have access to conversations like these and a lot more content from me, my team, and our subjects from the Betrayal podcast. Here is my conversation about the making of Betrayal Season four. Okay, guys, we are here today with a special video to commemorate the end of season four of Betrayal. And and I wanted to have everyone, or mostly everyone, that made this season happen. So if you guys would all do me a favor to introduce yourselves, we'll go around starting with Carrie.

[Carrie Hartman]

Hi, I'm Carrie Hartman and I'm the producer of Betrayal Season four.

[Monique Laborde]

I'm Monique Laborde and I was the story editor on Betrayal Season four.

[Kaitlyn Golden]

Hi, I'm Kaitlyn golden and I am the associate producer on season four.

[Tana Robbins]

Hello, I'm Tanner Robbins. I was the audio editor for season four of Betrayal.

[Andrea Gunning]

I'm really excited to sit and talk with you guys because we haven't really debriefed the season altogether. And I have questions for all of you, but I want to start with Tanner because I've been able to meet everybody, like, week to week with Carrie, Mo, and Caitlin and talk about episodes that we've produced, but I haven't sat or talk with you about the experience. Tell me a little bit about what it's been like for you to work on this season as an editor and as a listener.

[Tana Robbins]

Working on this season has been really fun just because there's been so much fascinating tape and things that I would just get audio from Carrie and Caitlin. And realize, how did they. How did they get this? This is absolutely wild. So it's been a pleasure to hear just such a fully well rounded story told in audio that I feel like is so. It's so hard to get. It's so uncommon to have such a. Like, deep access to a group of people and to an investigation within a police department, to have access to those files, too. And then just the random sort of people involved in that, you know, nameless people who we. We can't name because they, you know, had. Were involved in the affairs that Joel committed. Having audio from those people and their interactions with Joel gives you a lot to work with. And I actually told Carrie, don't tell me anything in advance. Every episode I get, I want it to be new. I want to experience the show as I'm putting it together. You know, literally, you know, putting it together. Hearing the story for the first time, I thought that would make it for, you know, a better experience for me, helped me give better feedback, but also just I get to hear the story as if I'm a listener.

[Andrea Gunning]

I was gonna mention that that was one of your requests to not know anything about the story ahead of time. And so you're really meeting the material fresh with really limited understanding of where we're going. Can you tell me a little bit about some of the moments that you found shocking or that were really memorable to you, like hearing it for the first time? I'm curious what those were for you.

[Tana Robbins]

The one that stands out in my mind is when Joel is confronted at his front door by the husband of one of the women that he slept with, cheated on his wife with.

[Andrea Gunning]

And.

[Tana Robbins]

Finding that this guy recorded it on his phone or something, recorded this interaction. And then we have that.

[Andrea Gunning]

Is your wife home by chance? What's that? You know who I am?

[Ad Voiceover]

No, dude, that's my wife out there.

[Andrea Gunning]

The one that you fucked in your cruiser? What are you talking about?

[Ad Voiceover]

I'm not here to harass you. I'm saying Joel. Yeah. I'm talking about you.

[Monique Laborde]

Okay.

[Andrea Gunning]

My wife is there.

[Ad Voiceover]

I wouldn't want to know if you know her.

[Andrea Gunning]

I have no idea who you're talking about.

[Tana Robbins]

I was like, this is amazing. We sort of talked about this moment, and now we're getting to hear it and hear the lies coming from Joel directly, hearing him being confronted with what he's done and trying to deflect it. And I was just like, this is incredible. That was surprising. The recording of the renter also was surprising, because I just love any time we have in the field in the moment audio that can really take you to the actual events. Because a lot of times in shows like this, especially true crime shows, you're looking back on what happened, right? You're asking people, what did you do? What did they do? What did you say? What did they say? How did this go down? And here we got audio where we get to hear it. We get to hear exactly how it went down. And because it's such natural tape, there's so much, I don't know, texture to it that you feel like you're there. I could see it when I was hearing it same. And that stuff was exciting to me as an audio editor because it really helps me to, you know, paint the picture with the audio.

[Andrea Gunning]

Those two moments are extremely intimate. It is like you're kind of dropping in on a moment and thinking, should I be hearing this? And you're right. Like we're asking audiences to imagine because it is a lot of it's past tense or they're talking about something that has happened. You're asking the audience to imagine something that has happened or create a person or an image of a person in their head. But you're really giving examples through these. This intimate tape to really showcase exactly what the interaction with this person is and was. It's really fascinating and incredible access. So we. It's been a joy working with you on this season and I'm glad that you were hearing things as we were producing. And I think that was a really great way to work together and get feedback. So that was really cool.

[Kaitlyn Golden]

Can I pop in with just one quick story about that audio? Specifically about that?

[Andrea Gunning]

Yeah, of course.

[Kaitlyn Golden]

We actually almost didn't get that audio of the husband of the person that Joel had an affair with coming to the front door. So what happened when we initially got that huge dump of records is there was one corrupted file in it that I could not open. And at first we were like, oh, this is probably just. It had a really vague name of just an address. So we had no idea what that was. But I just had a feeling that it would somehow matter. And I went back and I poked the police department and said, oh, I.

[Monique Laborde]

Think there's a mistake here.

[Kaitlyn Golden]

Can we have this? And then all of a sudden we get it back and it's this insane in the moment tape. And I just remember, you know, getting on the phone right after we got that tape with Andrea and Carrie and Mo. And I really feel like that was a big moment for us of this could a season long story. So, yeah, it's cool to think about how that tape is really integral to how we are where we are now.

[Carrie Hartman]

Since we're popping in here, I just want to mention Tanner responded in real time.

[Andrea Gunning]

Yeah.

[Carrie Hartman]

Okay. So as soon as he listened to these things, we would get these wild texts, like, oh, my God, are you kidding? He did what? So he really was, like, a listener. And it was another way we kind of knew we were telling a good story was because editors are sort of notoriously. I don't want to generalize, but I'm going to generalize, like, very steady. Have like a kind of a flat affect. You know, they work with tape all day. He was, like, so emotive about these things. So we kind of knew from his response that it was interesting and different.

[Tana Robbins]

I was angry. I was like, this guy's a piece of shit is what I was thinking. And it's like every new episode, I was like, wow, this guy is plumbing the depths of human depravity every single episode. And I didn't mention there's the tape of the two people who are. Well, the guy who's accusing him and then the woman who's sort of helping him cover it up, the renter who is being forced to lie. Joel's making her lie.

[Andrea Gunning]

Right.

[Tana Robbins]

And later on, we have the interviews, the internal affairs investigation interviews with Joel.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Can you describe that for us?

[Ad Voiceover]

Just met her through there, and then we started talking and then share common interests and became friends. But I just know her as her first name. I don't know her last name or anything like that.

[Andrea Gunning]

Well, you recognize the pictures, right?

[Ad Voiceover]

Yeah, now I do.

[Andrea Gunning]

Yep. Joel, you know how that's looking, right?

[Ad Voiceover]

Is this the person making the allegations?

[Andrea Gunning]

We'll get to that. But, I mean, if we're trying to establish credibility veracity.

[Jacob Goldstein]

I'm showing you a picture.

[Andrea Gunning]

I'm giving you a chance to take a look at it. You're telling me to my face that.

[Jacob Goldstein]

You don't recognize him?

[Andrea Gunning]

Well.

[Ad Voiceover]

I was mistaken. I apologize for that. I recognize her because I just met her at the brew functions. But that's it.

[Tana Robbins]

Where you get to hear him lie through his teeth to his colleagues about what's going on. All the while, we already know that he's lying, and we get to hear him waffle back and forth. They know he's lying also, which was so, so exciting to hear that. Just the tension. And I had a lot of fun building that moment in audio with. With sound design. This. This. These questions that are, like, leading questions, and it's Very obvious that the police know what's going on and Joel's just not picking up on it. And it was so satisfying after all the. What the moments before that, to get to the. I mean, it's hard to call it comeuppance, but it's the closest to comeuppance that we were getting at that moment. So that was really exciting, too.

[Andrea Gunning]

I've gotten a lot of messages from friends and family members and listeners saying Joel was one of the most complicated characters out of all four seasons for a lot of people. And I'm not saying his crimes are the most egregious, because we know that they aren't. But I think a lot of people are struggling with Joel because you could know this guy and not know meaning. It feels so close.

[Carrie Hartman]

Yeah.

[Andrea Gunning]

And I really appreciate that messaging because that's actually the point of the show, which is like these everyday betrayals that really root the, you know, the pervasiveness of what's happening, I think often is overlooked. It's like we. We can't always have these massive, extreme betrayals for people to lean in and listen. It's these really everyday things that make people question. Okay, actually, there's something that's going on, and this is actually close to home. Mo, my next question is for you. You story edited the season, but you also had the privilege of interviewing Dr. Jennifer Fried, who was featured in the last episode, and you were a huge advocate for getting Dr. Freid on the show. Can you tell me a little bit about why you felt like that was important? And walk me through, you know, the. The importance of why we had her on the show.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah. So with Dr. Freud, I hadn't heard of her before I started on this show, but after I started working on betrayal, I was interested in the psychological experience of betrayal trauma and what it does to a person's brain and nervous system. Mostly just so I could better understand the subjects we were working with and better tell their stories. And so when I was doing that research, Dr. Farai is the godparent, the godmother of betrayal. The godmother of betrayal trauma. I mean, she pioneered the field, coined the term betrayal trauma. And then the more I was watching interviews with her, listening to interviews with her, and reading about her work, I realized especially betrayal blindness as a concept was pretty mind blowing to me, and I think really clicked, made a lot of sense in what we see in. In the subjects we work with. We get so many comments from listeners saying, how could this person not have known? And I think There is lack of understanding about how betrayal blindness really functions and that psychological phenomena. So I thought having her explain it would be incredible for the show and really educational for our audience because I had learned so much researching her. She is really the academic, foremost expert on this topic. And without her, a lot of the concepts we talk about, you know, we wouldn't have this cultural understanding about betrayal, trauma. We wouldn't have these words without her work. So I was really honored and grateful that she agreed to do the interview with us.

[Andrea Gunning]

You had a really interesting job this season. While Carrie, Caitlin, and the editors were in the weeds of the everyday. You were that larger perspective of keeping the train on the tracks. And it's like, are we making it to our destination? Tell me a little bit about what episode you found the most challenging at the same time rewarding.

[Monique Laborde]

So for me, I couldn't come in blind.

[Andrea Gunning]

Yeah.

[Monique Laborde]

We've talked about before on the substack, I had worked with Caroline, potentially making her story for the weekly series, and I had done the first interview with her. That was a pretty long interview, like five hours. And so I knew already a lot of the details of the story. But seeing it all come together with the tape we were able to access from the police department and from the Kern family's life that they gave us, the people around Caroline and her family, that was really incredible.

[Andrea Gunning]

Mm.

[Monique Laborde]

And I think one of the challenges that we hit was when we decided to expand the story out to be about more officers in the Colorado Springs Police Department that were also breaking the code of conduct. And so we talked a lot internally about, is this the right thing to do, to zoom out? We're shifting focus from Caroline's story, but there is a larger pattern here, and Joel is not a one off case. And I think a lot of what we do, the work we do on betrayal, is taking a story and then expanding out to a larger pattern of behavior of wrongdoing and looking into how that plays out in society and how people are able to get justice or able to try to repair those wrongs. So I think that was one of the biggest challenges, but I'm really happy that we did that so we have a larger perspective and scope on the Colorado Springs Police Department outside of just Joel's employment there.

[Andrea Gunning]

Yeah. I want to turn my attention to Caitlin. You've been on a few sub stacks, so people kind of already know you. As our associate producer, I want to talk to you specifically about tracking down the archival and certain people of access for this season. What were some of your Roadblocks. What were some of your breakthroughs? What was it like? Because you were kind of a dog on a bone.

[Kaitlyn Golden]

This season, one of the biggest challenges was like, Mo was talking about figuring out how do we zoom this out without getting too far away from that initial story. And these issues that we're really asking people to think about of, you know, police officers who are betraying the badge and Claudia Aldrich, the whistleblower, was really at the core of all of that. And I think gaining her trust and getting her to see that we are people who would honor her story and the story of so many other former cops and employees at CSPD was really difficult. But, you know, one of the things that doesn't get featured on the show is that we build real relationships with these people. And, you know, it's been really nice to, yeah, feel like we now have a relationship with Claudia and that we've been able to, you know, she's connected us to so many different sources that we had on the show, like a former cop named John. Right. Who really helped us to understand the story of Glenn Thomas. And that was a really big get for us.

[Andrea Gunning]

Yeah, I think the biggest challenge of this season was trying to get former officers, current officers, current employees, former employees of CSPD to participate. And when we were out in Colorado Springs, we had people lined up, they fell through. But while we were on the ground, we had already known about this whistleblower network, but it wasn't something that we had really dug into yet to get access to. And I remember Carrie and I just, like, looking through all of the post, sitting down with our attorney at lunch and being like, look at what's out here. Look at what's online and being reported and figuring out a way to make contact. And that was something that you took on and really ran with and create a relationship with Claudia, which was incredible. It went from this thing that felt far away online to an interview in a matter of months, which was amazing, and I think had impact. And I think one of the biggest struggles, and I think you guys can all probably, like, understand, is that there was this balance of leaning into misconduct and culture, because I do think the culture at CSPD is like, the larger discussion. Right. Because it breeds opportunity for misconduct. You know, we kept saying, this isn't an example of the most egregious misconduct out there, but we were really examining, what does a culture do and how does culture affect the behavior of people that are trying to protect your community? And I think that was the larger point of episode six. And seven, I don't know how that occurs for any of you guys or how you feel about that.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah, I think it was important for us because in our previous seasons, especially two and three, we've been able to zoom out and talk about child sexual abuse materials and how they're prosecuted or those crimes are not prosecuted often.

[Kaitlyn Golden]

Yeah.

[Monique Laborde]

And then with child sexual abuse, in particular of boys in season three, we were able to zoom out and talk to one in six with this one. You know, we don't have the same kind of statistics, and we can't universalize it in the same way, but there are people like Joel in a lot of police departments. And for me, it just comes down to the fact that if I would call 911 in a crisis, I don't want someone like that showing up. It's a position of power. It really is, and I think it's important to be able to talk about those people.

[Andrea Gunning]

Mm.

[Monique Laborde]

So I do think that zooming out for episodes six and seven, even though it was a departure, added something to the larger story.

[Kaitlyn Golden]

Yeah. I also think it's. In a lot of true crime media, there's a really deep focus on the psychology of perpetrators, and I think that's super interesting to find out, you know, how does a person become a serial killer, for instance? But I think the trap that a lot of true crime media gets into with that is if it's just about individual psychology, then it's just about these bad apples. And I think what we've been able to do with this season is explore how is that psychology, coupled with this broader culture of misconduct, creating these perfect storms and, you know, making it so that these people who maybe did have histories of abuse or, you know, maybe naturally were more inclined towards lying, were then pushed even further.

[Monique Laborde]

Right.

[Tana Robbins]

I just wanted to add, you know, we were talking about institutional betrayal in episode 10, and I feel like these. These episodes, like episodes six and seven, where we're broadening out and talking about police misconduct. I feel like that's also in the cultural context that we live in right now. I think people are very aware, maybe more aware than ever, that there are bad apples, but they also spoil the whole bunch, as the expression goes, and that it is a culture that we all experience and does have an impact on our lives. And so hearing this, it's kind of like we're telling the audience what they already in some ways know, but we're giving them this view of this very specific department and how the sausage of this institutional betrayal is made, which I thought Was really valuable and also, if not shocking, at least validating to the way that a lot of people feel and think about their own police department.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah. That's another reason I was so glad we were able to interview Dr. Fryd, because Caroline, having put 20 years of her life into supporting her husband and believing in the police department and his career in the police department, bringing him food and making food for the other officers and just opening her home up to be a place where they felt welcome. Like, the experience of having the officers who stayed employed there turn their backs on her and not believe her was something that. It's hard to understand the magnitude of that betrayal. So having Dr. Freid be able to talk about institutional betrayal, the metaphor she used about the second concussion, like a brain injury, the first hit on the head being the betrayal, and then the second hit of the head being the lack of being supported or lack of being believed by an institution when you report or when you try to say, this is what happened. And I think Dr. Fry being able to contextualize institutional betrayal with real research was, like, really helpful to illustrating the point of the loss Caroline experienced.

[Andrea Gunning]

Totally. And it didn't dawn on me until this season. The one main thing that will get you fired as a police officer is not telling the truth is lying. And we all understand, like, misconduct and excessive force and things like that, but the standard like that's there is no, you get caught lying, you're done. That was something. That was a new concept for me, and I really think that it was an important exploration this season of why truth is important, why truth is important in our justice system and how that works. Because I don't think as a society, as just citizens, your community, you think about the importance of truthfulness when it comes to law enforcement is so important, Something you just kind of take for granted. You see someone in a uniform, you assume that they're a respectful person, a truthful person. But when you really pressure test and second guess, is that person capable of lying to me, and what does that mean for my basic civil liberties? I think that it just makes you sit with those questions that I think are really important for our society today.

[Tana Robbins]

I think it's worth noting that Joel got in trouble for lying to his own department, to other police officers, not for lying to anybody else. He didn't. I mean, he can lie to people out in public. He can. Police officers notoriously are able to lie to the suspects and the people they're interrogating.

[Andrea Gunning]

Yeah, it's a really good point, Tanner.

[Monique Laborde]

I Want to say with that, too, the internal affairs tape, like we've said before, this is. We know this is not the most egregious example of Joel's case, is not the most egregious example of police misconduct. But having an internal affairs proceeding with all this tape, one of the reasons it's so valuable is because these things are often happening extraditiously, even if someone could be charged with a crime. Instead, what happens is the internal affairs process. And so it's kind of. It's almost like the military court system, you know, like a military trial. Like what is happening inside when something goes wrong. And that is not something we see because it's not often brought to court unless it's the most egregious examples.

[Andrea Gunning]

Carrie, we've unpacked a lot of this season, but I'm curious, I don't know if we've talked about this yet. What was it like for you to build a relationship with Caroline, especially since she had gotten so comfortable with Mo? It was something that this season, we. We had never encountered before in pre. In previous seasons. So I'm just curious, what, what was that like for you?

[Carrie Hartman]

A challenge.

[Andrea Gunning]

Yeah.

[Monique Laborde]

I think one of the things that.

[Carrie Hartman]

Helped was I. I kind of acknowledged it from the gate. So when we were out in Colorado, and she's like, I love you, but you're not Mo.

[Andrea Gunning]

I was like.

[Carrie Hartman]

And I said, no, no. And, you know, she brings a set to the table. But you, you. I'm like, I'm like a fungus. I will grow on you. And that's what I think happened, honestly, because, you know, when you pour your guts out to somebody, and sometimes I think it really is easier with a total stranger. When somebody doesn't know all the players, they don't know your family. You can tell them everything. But she had just done that. So me walking into the picture after that was like, you know, having said that, she said it, like, in a cheeky way. And I think we over time establish trust. And I would get funny little tidbits or she'd have a thought and text me. And that's when I know we've kind of rounded that corner. One thing that we do as a team, we go out to wherever they live, Utah, Colorado, wherever. And we spend real time. We have meals together, we meet family and friends. And I think that has a lot to do with how we're able to build rapport because, you know, we're not in, you know, a 30 minute Zoom call. We're together for hours, and people can Get a better idea of who you are, what your goals are, how you work. So I think that that helped. But she did set a high bar for me to jump over, I have to say.

[Monique Laborde]

Well, you know, when we first did that, when I first did the interview with Caroline, we didn't know that it would become season four. We thought it would be for the weekly series. And so once we got this tape from the police department and decided this is a bicker story and got season four greenlit as Caroline's story, it was also important for me to really take a step back and hand do an official pass off and say, carrie's gonna be your producer now, knowing that you were gonna be there in person with Andrea, meeting her in her home, and that that relationship would grow over time and deepen in a way that I would never had access to, because you're there in person in her life. And, like, it was important for me to officially kind of transition it off so that there weren't two. I wasn't a shadow producer, where she's calling me also and telling me about something. And then I have to tell you, she.

[Andrea Gunning]

I was like, I. I've had that happen.

[Carrie Hartman]

I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah. Yeah, it could be. I mean, this is, like, really behind the curtains, like, inside baseball. But this is what happens. I mean, you have a whole team working on a story, and you develop, like, real feelings for people. I still hear from some of the women we worked with. These are continuing relationships, which. Which is why one of the reasons I like being here, because we're more. We're a little bit more invested and.

[Andrea Gunning]

Speaking to that investment, when you're dealing with working on something so intense and heavy, that has real impact, that can be hard to deal with day in and day out for six months, eight months, nine months, a year. I'm curious for all of you, what boundaries or emotional scaffolding do you guys have to help get through some of the hard days when you're hearing stuff that are really intense? I know for me, I. I work out. I. I do weightlifting, and that's a huge way of me, like, kind of processing the day before. So I'm curious for you guys, like, how do you manage? Because you feel the stress, you can feel that sadness, and I can stay with you.

[Carrie Hartman]

I'm really good at compartmentalizing that stuff. There have been a few occasions where I leave work. I mean, when I leave work, it means I, like, I leave this room and go to another room, but I leave work and it's still, you know, I'm thinking about it and thinking about it. I'm dreaming about it. But those. Those instances are few and far between, so I'm able to kind of, like, keep things in a place, and when I can't, you know, I break out the Chianti. Not as healthy as your solution, obviously.

[Andrea Gunning]

Tanner, how about you?

[Tana Robbins]

For me, luckily, I have some distance from all of this. I'm getting, you know, the pieces of the interview that have already been, like, looked through by the producers. They'd already picked the best parts, and so I don't have to hear maybe the worst elements as well. Shows where you're talking about See Sam or you're talking about gruesome crimes, I would say I don't think I handle it very well in the sense that I'm like, everything's fine. But, you know, I worked on a true crime show where I had to start some anxiety medication because I was just, like, getting too paranoid about, you know, like, my own safety. You hear stories sometimes, and things happen to people, and you can't help but extrapolate that to, like, well, could somebody do that to me?

[Andrea Gunning]

Yeah, I had that on there and gone.

[Tana Robbins]

Yeah, it's terrifying. Especially when there's so much mystery around, like, what happened to a person. It really opens up the floodgates of your mind to, you know, catastrophize.

[Andrea Gunning]

I do bring some of my betrayal stuff home with me. I mean, Caroline was asking this about when we were out in Colorado Springs. We were meeting with her and Suzanne because I had recently gotten engaged, and they were like, does any of this affect how you feel about marriage and relationships? And I'm not gonna lie. Like, there are moments where I'm. I'm really tough, and even it's any. How I approach finances and, like, really big decisions about bringing fully together are. Is impacted by these stories that I've worked on, because I focus on people who are dealing with the aftermath of a relationship falling apart. And so I give a lot of credit to my fiance. It's hard. So that stuff, I think I definitely. I'm not necessarily conscious of, but I'm definitely. It comes out.

[Kaitlyn Golden]

It's also so interesting, you know, because we're always kind of dealing with the big story on the limited run and then dealing with many stories at once on Betrayal Weekly, and you never really know what is going to really hit for you. I mean, you know, we were working on a Betrayal Weekly episode just a few weeks ago where, you know, I think all of us had this moment of, wow, this is something that's really physically violent and is hitting us in really different ways. I feel like I often get the question from friends of mine of, like, are. Are you depressed all the time from all this material? And I think one thing that's been really helpful for me is just centering a deep sense of gratitude. It is so remarkable that every single day, each of us are talking to people who have been through some of the hardest things that people can ever go through, and they're not only coming out on the other side of it for themselves, but they are making the choice to help other people. And to be a part of helping those people help other people is a huge honor and I think makes our work feel a lot less heavy to me.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah, well, for me, there's really two different emotional experiences, and the one that's the most difficult is the interview. When I'm in an interview with someone, I really am feeling their emotions with them, and sometimes I'm crying with them. And, you know, that's a really emotional experience that I, like, have to recover from and take care of myself afterwards. But after that happens, when we say goodbye, almost always, they're thanking me for listening, and they're saying how it feels good to be able to be heard and believed and to tell their story in one sitting. And so that I leave ultimately feeling positively about the interaction that we've had, even though they've told me about some of the worst things they've ever experienced. And then it's that gratitude that comes with the continued interaction with them, with the storytellers, as they're screening the episodes, as we're following up, that they're so proud to have shared their story and happy to have shared their story, I'm able to focus on that feeling and not the feeling or the experience of the worst part of their story. But, yeah, the larger point is that, like, the interview, I feel one way, and then once I'm seeing it in a script, I feel a little more clinical about it. It's a little bit. It's removed. It's like, okay, this is an episode now. And I'm able to separate, compartmentalize those two experiences out and think about it from the listener's experience when making the episode, as opposed to the interpersonal experience I'm having in the interview. I have a question for you.

[Andrea Gunning]

Oh, you do?

[Monique Laborde]

I was going to ask you, Dre, about how this. Because this season is different in a few ways from the other seasons we've worked on. One of the biggest differences is that the person who was doing the betraying was never convicted of a crime. So I'm wondering about your experience reporting this as well. And how do you think about this one differently from previous seasons you've worked on?

[Andrea Gunning]

Yeah, I mean, because he wasn't convicted of a crime, we needed to see what was in the public domain and what was out there. And so that's really what started the hunt for the IA Files. And so once we got all of that reporting and understood we have all of these files and this is really what's underneath, it was kind of like any other season because there was so much documentation, so much reporting, like the investigation files were there. And this story, I feel like kind of met me at the right time because I think we all kind of are in a place in time where, like, what is truth and what does the truth mean to you? And I think that this season really, really explores that. Well, before we wrap up, we have this is not the end of Betrayal. We have a lot of news. So, Mo, obviously you produce the always on that show's coming back. You want to tell the audience when to expect to hear the first episode.

[Monique Laborde]

Yes. Our first episode of season two of Betrayal Weekly comes out Thursday, August 7th. So mark your calendars, subscribe. And we are going to be starting with some episodes, some incredible episodes, some stories unlike anything I've ever heard. Yeah, we really found some storytellers who are able to reflect on what they've been through and have overcome things unimaginable. So it's been a really rewarding season to start working on. We're about six episodes in to our production, so we're really excited to start sharing these episodes with y' all in August.

[Andrea Gunning]

And season five is right around the corner. Caitlyn, you are producing this season. You want to give a little bit of a teaser and when we should expect that to launch?

[Kaitlyn Golden]

Yeah, for sure. So season five is coming out mid January, and it's a story about what happens when the person who is caring for you turns out to be the one causing you to be suffering. And it's also a story about what happens when the law isn't on your side. And I think it's very relevant to a lot of global stories that are going on right now. And it's coming directly from many stories that we've been hearing from listeners in our inbox. So I think it'll be a very special season.

[Andrea Gunning]

Well, I have to say I'm really proud of everyone and their work this season. And thanks for all of your hard work. It's been kind of a race to the finish line, so congrats to everyone and congrats to Matt who is another editor on the show who is not here today. But thank you so much and I've loved every second of working on this season with you guys. Thank you for listening to Betrayal Season four. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email [e-mail] that's betrayalpodmail.com also please be sure to follow us at Glass Podcasts on Instagram for all Betrayal content, news and updates. One way to support the series is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Please rate and review Betrayal 5 star reviews. Help us know you appreciate what we do. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Betrayal is hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Carrie Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our associate producers are Kaitlyn golden and Kristin Melchiori. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krynczyk. Story editing by Monique Laborde, audio editing by Matt d' Alvecchio and Tanner Robbins and mixed by Matt d' Avecchio and special thanks to Caroline and her family. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines Music Library provided by Mind Music and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Andrea Gunning]

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