Loading summary
Transcript162 lines
- [00:01]
Andrea Gunning
At Amica Insurance, we know it's more than a life policy. It's about the promise and the responsibility that comes with being a new parent, being there day and night and building a plan for tomorrow today for the ones you'll always look out for. Trust Amica Life Insurance. Amica Empathy is our best policy. Where'd you get those shoes? Easy. They're from dsw. Because DSW has the exact right shoes for whatever you're into right now. You know, like the sneakers that make office hours feel like happy hour, the boots that turn grocery aisles into runways, and all the styles that show off the many sides of you, from daydreamer to multitasker and everything in between. Because you do it all in really great shoes. Find a shoe for every you at your DSW store or dsw.com we've all.
- [01:01]
Dre
Heard the success stories of weight loss with GLP1 injections, but let's be real. They can be very expensive and hard to access. That's where Henry Meds comes in. No insurance. No problem. You can save over $1,000 a month. Compared to brand name options, Henry Meds has no hidden fees, just affordable, transparent pricing and a team of caring healthcare providers and compounded GLP1 options with both injections and oral medications. Start your weight management journey@henrymeds.com today. Results may vary. Not all patients are eligible. Compounded medications are not FDA approved. Consult a healthcare provider to determine if treatment is right for you. This is Tamara Judge from two T's in a Pod with Teddy Mellencamp and Tamara Judge. Symbiotica is one of the most transparent brands out there. They never compromise on quality and sourcing. Their products are free from seed oils.
- [01:48]
Andrea Gunning
Preservatives, toxins or artificial additives.
- [01:50]
Dre
It's something you can taste and feel in every packet.
- [01:53]
Andrea Gunning
Go to symbiotica.com teapot for 20% off plus free shipping.
- [01:58]
Dre
That's C Y M B I O T I k a/t e a P.
- [02:04]
Andrea Gunning
O D Symbiotica Wellness Made simple.
- [02:28]
Dre
Hey guys, it's Andrea Gunning and this is our first bonus episode after finishing our season of weekly stories this year, our team has been working hard behind the scenes to put every weekly episode together. And the we I'm referencing is my amazing production team, our producer Monique Laborde, our associate producer Kaitlyn golden, and our audio engineers, Matt Del Vecchio and Tanner Robbins. For this special bonus episode, I'm joined by my producer to answer some of your listener questions.
- [02:57]
Andrea Gunning
Hey Mo. Hi Dre. So fun to come out from behind the scenes. Oh, my God. I am glad to be here. And I am excited to dive into some listener questions that we have been receiving all season on Betrayal Weekly.
- [03:12]
Dre
I love it. I'm so excited to jump in. I actually want to start with a question for you.
- [03:17]
Andrea Gunning
Yeah, go for it.
- [03:18]
Dre
You know, this has been a evolving journey just from the format and how we're approaching our interviews. So I just wanted to ask, what has it been like?
- [03:29]
Andrea Gunning
Yeah, you know, I've been a podcast producer for eight years and I've worked on all kinds of shows. I've produced chat shows, pop culture, news, narrative. But this show has been a complete standout in my work experience. I mean, from the day that I came onto this team, y'all have built this framework of doing something really unconventional and trying to, I think, develop a trauma informed storytelling model. This collaborative kind of storytelling that we're doing where we're working with these survivors, we're giving them a lot of autonomy in the storytelling process. So getting to join that and getting to connect with the people that tell their stories, these people who've been through something really traumatic and are wanting to share their experiences, has been incredibly rewarding for me. I think it's an uncommon experience in the audio industry to see a show work so closely with the storytellers and to collaborate with them in the way that we do. I want to ask you about what it has been like for you to work on the weekly series. Because you worked on three seasons, you were really enmeshed in those stories.
- [04:40]
Dre
Yeah.
- [04:41]
Andrea Gunning
And then this is a totally new format for you. So I wanna talk a little bit about what your experience has been like in hosting the weekly series.
- [04:49]
Dre
Yeah. So it's completely different workflow for seasons one through three. So Jen's story, Ashley's story, Stacey and Tyler's story. I'm in these individuals homes, I'm in their towns, I'm with them. Like, I just came back from a few weeks ago from Colorado Springs preparing for season two, and I was with her and her kids and her family and her best friends over the course of two weeks. And you just create this bond and this connection and you really understand these individuals lives. And I don't get that opportunity. On the weekly series, we don't have the opportunity of like 8 to 10 episodes for us to really take our time. We are really boiling down hours and hours of interview into a linear timeline and we want to get it right. This is one or two episodes where we have to like really do it in a concise and thoughtful way. And it's just been a really interesting experience, like making sure that we honor everything that's important to the individual.
- [05:52]
Andrea Gunning
Another thing that has been so special about betrayal and working on betrayal is the community that's developing. I mean, from the people who write into us, into our Gmail, to the people who share their stories on the podcast. They're like a part of making this with us. And as you know, some of our storytellers choose to receive listener mail and connect with people directly who want to share their story and connect with them, you know, over the phone. So it feels like there is a real community around this show, and we're actively seeing it.
- [06:23]
Dre
Like, we're seeing individuals who have participated that are getting together in real time, that live across the country from one another, that really only know one other person that may have experienced a betrayal like them. Like it. That is so special and cool. And we've only been able to really experience that because of the weekly series, which is diverse stories in a short amount of time, you know.
- [06:44]
Andrea Gunning
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay, let's get on to some listener questions. I want to start with, like, a rapid fire round of questions. We've gotten a lot of. Okay, so first off, the question is, why do you mostly feature stories from women? Why are there so few men on Betrayal Weekly?
- [07:03]
Dre
This is one we talk about a lot.
- [07:05]
Andrea Gunning
It is.
- [07:06]
Dre
We want to represent individuals who experience betrayal like all different walks of life. Right. Because it's not specific to any gender, race, religion. I don't think that men are being deceived or betrayed less. I just think that there's a stigma around that vulnerability and, like, sharing that may relate more to how men process that trauma and are willing to share that trauma. You know, we find a lot of the stories from our own listeners, like our audience who write in, and our primary demographic is women. And so a lot of that's coming from the people in our community. So there's a little bit of that going on. I'm interested to hear what hypothesis you have.
- [07:53]
Andrea Gunning
You know, what's interesting is that sometimes we get women writing in, being like, I know a man who was betrayed, but it's not the man writing into us. Men do write into us. And we have featured a few stories from men on the weekly series, and some of those we had to go looking for, like Ramon Sosa. We had to intentionally find him because we didn't want to create a lineup of exclusively women.
- [08:17]
Dre
Yeah.
- [08:18]
Andrea Gunning
But at the same time, there is something going on that's Bigger than just our podcast and the selection for our podcast, which is, I think that maybe there's more shame. Men have more shame about saying I was deceived. That might not be as common or as practiced for men.
- [08:36]
Dre
This is just like my armchair perspective. But shame is a huge deal when it comes to betrayal. Like, how did I not know? How did I not see it coming? I should have known better. I should have this, I should have that, and I didn't. And I put myself into harm's way, and there's a lot of shame and the reckoning that comes with that. And so I think you're dead on. Not everyone comes forward. And we'll always have a safe space for men to share their story here.
- [09:02]
Andrea Gunning
Yeah. Our next question is, do we vet people? Or similar question. How do we fact check these stories?
- [09:11]
Dre
Oh, my gosh. We go through such a rigorous legal process because there's a lot of legal vetting in terms of pulling legal support. What's in the public domain? Divorce paperwork, personal records. It gets filtered through our attorney a few times. But before we get to that, you have initial conversations at the very beginning. Do you want to talk about that?
- [09:34]
Andrea Gunning
Yeah. So when we get a story that comes in through the inbox and we reach out to the person to talk for what we call a pre interview, which is just, you know, not recorded, hearing a little bit about their story, one of the first things we ask is for documentation. And it's not that we don't believe them. In fact, a trauma informed approach to this work is that we're approaching everyone with belief. However, we do put all these stories through a rigorous legal process in order for them to err. We ask our guests for documentation like divorce records, criminal records, and throughout the process, we're checking those things against the story that they're telling us. Another part of the vetting process, which is just as big that we talk about internally, is is this person ready to tell this story at this time?
- [10:25]
Dre
Yeah. That's huge.
- [10:28]
Andrea Gunning
And generally, we like to work with people who are a few years out from their betrayal experience, so they've had a little bit more time to process it. And so when I'm first reaching out to someone who's written us an email and they want to share their story, you know, in that initial call, we asked them about their support system, if they've told this story to other people. And I don't mean in a formal sense, like writing a book, but I mean, like, do people in your life, your kids, your friends, do they know this has happened to you, which is not necessarily, you know, mutually exclusive of telling your story on this show, but I think it's a sign that this person is comfortable in this story and having the story associated with who they are.
- [11:12]
Dre
Right. Also, when we're working on an episode, we are running initial, like, broad stroke background information to the extent that we can, just to make sure that we can kind of corroborate certain things in people's story. Just like time and place, just make sure things are matching.
- [11:29]
Andrea Gunning
Yeah, we have a pretty conservative in house legal team that wants to vet everything, make sure that anything that's a potentially defamatory claim has documentation behind it. And so that is a burden on us to make sure we get that documentation in order to run the episodes.
- [11:44]
Dre
Yep.
- [11:45]
Andrea Gunning
And something else that this brings up is we hear from a lot of people who want to write books or want to tell their story publicly and they don't have the documentation, or let's say they were so mad they burned it all, something like that, they threw it away. You know, if someone's listening right now and if you're in a situation where you're feeling taken advantage of or you're feeling like something's going really wrong, definitely from where I am right now, producing these stories and getting them legally vetted, I can say it's super important to keep those receipts and keep those pieces of paper, those emails, those interactions, those financial statements, that kind of stuff can allow you to be able to legally tell your story in the future. It can't be overstated how important it is.
- [12:29]
Dre
Or as Heather Gay once said, receipts, proof, timelines, screenshots, everything.
- [12:35]
Andrea Gunning
Yes, exactly.
- [12:37]
Dre
Yeah. Maybe this is a good opportunity to talk more about our production process.
- [12:41]
Andrea Gunning
Yeah. I mean, a lot of times in working with people who've experienced any kind of trauma, there is a way, a trauma informed way, you're supposed to approach what they've experienced. The sort of three principles are, I believe you. It's not your fault what happened, and you're not alone in this feeling. So anytime we're interacting with the storytellers, we're basically trying to take those three principles and adapt them into a media framework. So a setting like an interview or in the finished product of the podcast, that's all because we want to give the storytellers, who are the lifeblood of this show, autonomy and respect throughout the whole process. A little bit about what this looks like in practice is that in the pre interview, we explain what the process is going to look like. We talk to them about the options of keeping it anonymous or using their name, which is every storyteller's choice. Of course, if you use your name, your burden of documentation to provide is higher. When we're on the pre interview, I encourage everyone to talk with their family and friends as they're deciding if they want to tell this story. And we let them know in that first call that we're going to request documentation as part of the legal review. And then once they consider all of that, if they want to participate and we think that their story is the right fit for the show, then we move on with an interview. I tell everyone, basically, you're in control of what you say, starting from here. If I ever ask you anything that you don't want to answer, you don't have to answer it. In fact, what I want most is for them to close their laptop that day, feeling like they are proud of how they represented themselves and not feeling like they disclosed anything that they're going to stay awake at night worrying about. Sometimes we do the interview in two sittings, especially if someone is feeling really emotional. We might break and come back another day. In terms of if someone's ready to tell their story, I don't think of crying as something that is a bad sign. I'm a crier. I cry almost every day.
- [14:40]
Dre
I am, too. So it's fine.
- [14:42]
Andrea Gunning
You are.
- [14:43]
Dre
I cried earlier today.
- [14:44]
Andrea Gunning
Good. Great. So it doesn't mean that the person isn't ready to tell their story. I really trust them when they tell me I want to do this. And of course, most of our stories come from people who wrote into us, and we are never pushing anyone into telling a story or are not in the business of convincing people to tell these stories. After I do the interviews, then, Dre, you come in, and we work together with our associate producer, Caitlin golden, to shape the stories. So do you want to. You want to take it from here and talk a little bit about what happens once we start shaping the stories?
- [15:17]
Dre
Yeah. So you do the hours long interviews, and then you have a really good understanding from meeting with the storytellers and having the pre interview of, like, what's important to them to share and the journey that you want to go on. And so you present me and our associate producer, Caitlin, like, a ton of material for us to work with, and we talk about each bite that you've taken out of the interview and how do we introduce it? Like, how do we write into it? How do we write out of it? And we put it in a linear fashion. And then we just write around it.
- [15:52]
Andrea Gunning
And then once we have the finished product. This is something I really love about Betrayal Weekly, that many, many shows do not do. We send the episode to the guest before it's released.
- [16:04]
Dre
Yeah.
- [16:05]
Andrea Gunning
And we want them to do a fact checking pass, but we also want them to do a red flag pass if something came out in the interview that would really make them feel extremely uncomfortable, would make a material impact in their daily life if it were to go out and they don't want it to run. We respect people's feedback on that, and we work with them to change it before it goes out. Like I'm thinking of the example of Stephanie, episode one. Right. Who was the storyteller in our first two episodes. She had read out loud some of the captions her husband or ex husband wrote online under photos of her. And when she heard it back out loud in her own voice, she said, I don't want that out there.
- [16:52]
Dre
Yeah.
- [16:53]
Andrea Gunning
And so we revised it so that you read it in your narration. And she was okay with that. It wasn't that she didn't want it to be known. It's that hearing her own voice say it was so uncomfortable for her. And that was a small fix that was easy for us to do.
- [17:08]
Dre
Yeah. You never can really anticipate how certain things occur to the storyteller when they hear it back. We're operating from a place of. These are individuals that have gone through a traumatic event, and their foundation of trust and reality have been either distorted or destroyed, and they're rebuilding. And so it's really important for us to operate in a safe place of trust and transparency and sharing. That is a huge part of it.
- [17:34]
Andrea Gunning
Yeah. And this is something that I don't see in other podcasts. I've never worked on a show that has allowed the storyteller to hear the episode before it goes out. I think there's this idea that if you do that, then the person's not gonna like it. They're gonna have a bunch of changes. And I have to say, in the 32 episodes we made, that maybe only happened once or twice. And then we worked through it.
- [17:58]
Dre
Right.
- [17:58]
Andrea Gunning
And so it actually was more rewarding than it was difficult, because at the end of the day, I can know the day that it goes out that the person whose story this is is happy with the story.
- [18:11]
Dre
Right.
- [18:12]
Andrea Gunning
It's actually pretty easy to give people a chance to review the content and just at the very least, to familiarize themselves with it before it goes out. And other people start reaching out to them on Strangers on the Internet. Hear it because it sounds so different when it's the episodes all produced than what the raw interview sounded like.
- [18:29]
Dre
Yeah.
- [18:30]
Andrea Gunning
Let's take a quick break and then when we come back, I have a few more of our most commonly asked listener questions.
- [18:43]
Dre
Foreign.
- [18:47]
Andrea Gunning
It'S tax season, and by now I know we're all a bit tired of numbers, but here's an important one you need to hear. $16.5 billion. That's how much money in refunds the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud last year. Here's another 20%. That's the overall increase in identity theft related to tax fraud in 2024 alone. But it's not all grim news. Here's a good number. 100 million. That's how many data points Lifelock monitors every second. If your identity is stolen, LifeLock's US based restoration specialists will fix it, backed by another good number, the million dollar protection plan. In fact, restoration is guaranteed or your money back. Don't face identity theft and financial losses alone. There's strength in numbers with Lifelock identity theft protection for tax season and beyond. Join now and save up to 40% your first year. Call 1-800-LIFELOCK and use promo code iheart or go to lifelock.com iheart for 40% off terms apply at Amica Insurance we know it's more than a life policy. It's about the promise and the responsibility that comes with being a new parent, being there day and night and building a plan for tomorrow today for the ones you'll always look out for. Trust Ameca Life Insurance Ameca Empathy is our best policy.
- [20:18]
Dre
Good news. Your favorite Caribbean beaches are sale@cheapcaribbean.com Cheap Caribbean is your go to website for finding the best deals on all inclusive vacation packages. They're all about getting you more sand for your dollar. Check out their Beach Favorite Sale to score $175 instant savings on bookings of four nights or more to the Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Aruba and the Bahamas. Offer ends April 1st. Go to CheapCaribbean.com to start saving.
- [20:47]
Andrea Gunning
Let's be honest, most of us have a love hate relationship with wired bras. We love the lift, but hate the digging. We love the support, but hate feeling trapped. Well, Nyx just changed everything with Freeflex, a wired bra actually designed to work with your body, not against it. Free Flex features a revolutionary flexible wire that moves when you move, bends when you bend, and keeps everything exactly where you want it. No poking, no stabbing, no constant Readjusting, just freedom to move. It also has a demi cup shape for a natural lift with a lower neckline that flatters in everything from V necks to dresses. And because it's from Nyx, it's available in sizes for every body. Experience the first wired bra you'll actually want to wear all day. Visit nyx.com for 15% off your order with Free Flex 15. That's kn ix.com code freeflex15 for 15% off nyx.com all right, we're back, and I have a few more of the most commonly asked questions we get, and then a little later on, we are going to get to questions about specific episodes.
- [21:57]
Dre
Okay.
- [21:58]
Andrea Gunning
All right, Dre, another frequently asked question we have is, how do you decide which episodes are two parts and which are only one part?
- [22:06]
Dre
This is such a good question for the two parters. A lot of them were like, oh, wow, this has a lot of twists and turns. There's a lot going on that we don't feel like we could pack in in under 50 minutes. So let's just approach it, like two parts, and it gives us more freedom.
- [22:21]
Andrea Gunning
Yeah. A lot of times it's dictated by how much good tape we have. Like, with Hannah, a lot of good tape. And it's hard to pare that down.
- [22:28]
Dre
But let's talk about Hannah.
- [22:30]
Andrea Gunning
Sure. Yeah.
- [22:30]
Dre
Because sometimes I think it's just as much as, like, the twists and the turns of the story of, like, you know, understanding someone's background, how they met the person that ultimately betrayed them. The betrayal and then it's ending and its aftermath. Sometimes there's, like, these incredible, beautiful scenes. Like, she talks about being on the train from D.C. to Philly, and I particularly love the fact that this guy was getting off in Philadelphia, and she was, like, crying, and she was hysterical, and this person was like, I'm sure there's somebody that loves you and cares about you. And she goes, people are just the best. And it was this moment of, like, you know, sometimes if we're cutting a lot of stuff, you're missing moments where you get to just sit with the human experience. I just loved that.
- [23:17]
Andrea Gunning
Yeah.
- [23:18]
Dre
And sometimes we just don't want to sacrifice it. And that's why.
- [23:21]
Andrea Gunning
And I think that's a big part of what our audience likes about this show, is that we're not just focusing on the true crime. And then this happened and that happened and the body buried in the basement and the. You know. But I think a big part of the betrayal listenership, they're here because they're getting something out of these real people's stories.
- [23:42]
Dre
Mm.
- [23:43]
Andrea Gunning
All right, the last question that we have gotten a lot of. In fact, probably the most common question we get in our inbox in our reviews. Do you know what it's gonna be?
- [23:54]
Dre
Uh, ads. Yes.
- [23:57]
Andrea Gunning
Why are there so many ads on your podcast?
- [24:02]
Dre
I don't know what to say, guys. I mean, this is how we fund the show. And there's like, a formula that we have with iheart in terms of, like, ad markers of when you know, if your episode's X amount of time long, like 40 minutes long, there's ad breaks, and they sell the ad space. And we're forever grateful because it keeps us in business. So that's why we have ads. It funds the show.
- [24:29]
Andrea Gunning
Yes. And the show is free. That's the trade off with ads, is that the show is free. But if you love the show and you don't want to hear ads, you can subscribe to I Heart True Crime Plus. Sorry, I have to do a plug.
- [24:41]
Dre
Good job, Mo. You're doing my job for me.
- [24:43]
Andrea Gunning
Thank you. I love podcasts. I listen constantly to podcasts. And like, with I Heart True Crime plus, you also get dozens of other great true crime shows.
- [24:52]
Dre
It's $3.99 a month. And so if you want an ad free experience, that's not just betrayal. It's a ton of shows. You know, if that means something to you, to help support creators, support producers, that's the way to go.
- [25:07]
Andrea Gunning
Yeah. If you're already a subscriber, thank you. It really makes a difference.
- [25:11]
Dre
100%. So much gratitude for that.
- [25:14]
Andrea Gunning
Okay, I wanna move on to questions about specific episodes.
- [25:18]
Dre
Okay.
- [25:18]
Andrea Gunning
And I'm gonna do a little recap of each episode because I know it's been a few months since listeners have heard some of these stories. So our first question is about the Torah episode. Tora was episode number eight. She was a history professor. She met a student named Aaron in her class, an adult student. He was a veteran. He told her that he had had his foot blown off in an explosion while he was serving in Afghanistan and that he wore a prosthetic. But his death began the process of her learning that the amputation was a lie, that he actually had both of his feet. So a listener wrote into us and said, how could anyone live with a person and have a sexual relationship with them for three years and never see their foot?
- [26:08]
Dre
I have a lot of opinions on this.
- [26:10]
Andrea Gunning
Great.
- [26:11]
Dre
I mean, I don't judge Torah, but it's fair to just understand like the mechanics of it. But one of the things that Tora shared in her episode is she had very specific boundaries around her intimacy and her physical intimacy. And she also shared that he was really embarrassed by this part of his body. He always wore a sock, and he covered it up. And I think just, you know, we talk about this a lot like perpetrators. They'll find the right person, the people that are understanding and trusting. You know, it works because she honored his boundaries physically. You know, when you trust someone, when you're coming from a place of believing someone, it starts there. And he was embarrassed by it, and he wanted to cover it up. And she's already coming from a place of respecting intimate boundaries and physical boundaries because she has her own. I can see it. It didn't seem crazy to me. It didn't.
- [27:11]
Andrea Gunning
Yeah. I mean, there are the practical elements. Like, he not only wore a sock, but he also wore a hard plastic brace underneath the sock. So when he walked, it sounded like a prosthetic. And, I mean, he always used a different shower that he said was easier for him to get into. So there are logistics of how he actually pulled off the deception. But then there's, I think, a deeper level, too, that's more important to understand than the logistics of how he covered this up is that he said it was an injury from a traumatic experience, an explosion that, like, killed one of his friends in the war, which didn't happen. And there is a larger pattern about how these people who are manipulating others often work. There's this research psychologist, Dr. Jennifer Fried, who we talk a lot about, and her work is foundational to understanding betrayal trauma. She coined the term betrayal trauma. She also coined this acronym, DARVO D A R V O, which is a manipulation technique, and it stands for deny attack and reverse victim and offender. It's super powerful and effective. We see this tactic all the time in the world. But in a case like Tora, Aaron was claiming that he had this very sympathetic and very traumatic victim narrative of how he lost his foot. And so oftentimes, people who are doing Darvo are basically flipping the script of who the victim is. And their victim narrative is compelling and is powerful and emotional.
- [28:46]
Dre
Right.
- [28:46]
Andrea Gunning
And it's the kind of thing that no sympathetic, reasonable person would say, I don't believe you that you had a injury in the war. Like, you don't want to push someone on that. And the victim narratives can be so effective. I mean, we saw it also with Tammy McCrary in that episode where her husband was a fake doctor. He had Said that he. He had two children. And the reason that Tammy could never talk to his parents is that his children and his parents all died in a car accident.
- [29:16]
Dre
Right.
- [29:17]
Andrea Gunning
That's not the kind of story you are going to force someone you love to go into details about. You know, it's a very effective manipulation tool.
- [29:26]
Dre
Yeah.
- [29:26]
Andrea Gunning
Okay, Our next question about a specific episode is about Danielle's story. Dhonielle. Just as a reminder for listeners, she was married to a man named Chad. They had a big family. Chad was a financial advisor. She did all the homeschooling and all the labor in the house, and he did basically the money making. But over time, he's behaving strangely. Weird things are happening. And one night when she wakes up in the middle of the night, he's not there and the car is gone. But, you know, when she tries to press him on it, he just gets mad at her. Then years pass, and nothing big happens. You know, things are a little weird, and he's pulling away from her and sleeping oftentimes in his office in the basement. And then one night, she wakes up to the FBI and the state police having raided her house because it turns out Chad has kidnapped two of their family friends, an elderly couple that they actually went to church with, and he had put them in a dungeon that he had built. He's not actually a financial advisor. He was planning on having them go into a bank and wire him a check for multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars. And thankfully, the FBI was called in very quickly, and then they found the couple alive. So a listener wrote to us and said Chad leaves his home regularly at night, even on vacation. But why? To go where? To do what? Is there no other info on this disturbing habit other than that it happened?
- [31:02]
Dre
I wish we had these answers. I mean, Danielle's a mom of six that's homeschooling and managing all of those children every day and is just focused on keeping the family afloat and is, like, just trying to keep her head above water.
- [31:21]
Andrea Gunning
Mm.
- [31:23]
Dre
I don't think she even knows the extent of what he was doing. I. I genuinely. I don't. I don't get the sense that she knows the full extent.
- [31:33]
Andrea Gunning
No, she doesn't. Like, she doesn't know where he actually was that night. And even if she were to ask him after the fact, you know, call him in jail, which she does not communicate with him, but, like, even if she were to ask him, I don't think she believes she would get an honest answer. Right. But, you know, I think this question of how did someone not know? Comes up a lot in our inbox and in our reviews. And we often hear about these scenarios where something happens, like I wake up in the night and my partner's not here and it's off, but they don't know how off it really is. And it's important to remember that in these episodes we're hearing the whole story told at once. We're hearing all the red flags strung together in a row.
- [32:17]
Dre
It's true.
- [32:17]
Andrea Gunning
But of course this was happening. You know, there were years. Years, exactly. Years that were totally fine and they took family vacations and nothing went wrong.
- [32:26]
Dre
I mean, before we even started producing season one, my producer for the narrative limited run series, Carrie Hartman and I were reading Talking to Strangers by Malcolm Gladwell. And we went to go see him speak at the University of Pennsylvania. And we were both really interested in this whole concept of default or truth, which is a concept that you're more likely to believe someone is telling you the truth than assuming that they're lying to you. And then especially when it comes to strangers, people are generally bad at detecting when someone's lying to you. And I think sometimes we often worry about how did you not know than the reality of this person did a bad thing. There are bad people, people like Danielle's husband that are doing bad things. And I think your assumption is my husband isn't capable of kidnapping two elderly people from our church and putting them in a dungeon. Like, we're not necessarily wired to do that line of thinking. Even if your husband is out late, it's like maybe worst case scenario, he's blowing off steam in the car and driving around and you're not going to. My husband's kidnapping somebody. Like, let's really talk about the reality here. It's just not just more often than not, you're rationalizing and you're bringing in your historical information of the person that you think that they are based on a lifetime of experience and just evidence. And then you're making assumptions. And so it was important for us when we did this show, especially when we started Jen's season, to really explore this, because these stories are born out of the scenarios where people didn't see it, people didn't see red flags.
- [34:14]
Andrea Gunning
Yeah, I think default, the truth is really important and I think people want to believe that they are good at detecting liars because it makes.
- [34:22]
Dre
Makes you feel safe.
- [34:23]
Andrea Gunning
Yes, makes you feel safe. That feeling of I would have known is a self soothing feeling of it couldn't happen to me because I Can tell. And I can tell when I hear this story. But we're producing this story, and if you're living it, it's a different experience.
- [34:38]
Dre
Right. Scary.
- [34:40]
Andrea Gunning
It's really scary. Yeah. All right, moving on to another question, we got about a specific episode, and it's the episode with Dr. Carrie. Carrie McAvoy. She is a clinical psychologist. Her husband of 25 years, Brad, dies of cancer, and she's devastated. She's experiencing this grief, trying to find a way to move on. She decides she wants to throw herself back into dating. She meets a guy online who we in the episode call Cesar, and he is a Mexican American dual citizen. He brings her into this world essentially of, like, Mexican real estate development. And she puts a lot of Brad's life insurance money into developing a real estate company with Cesar. They get married. All of these things happen. There are so many deceptions. You have to go listen to both the parts to really get the full picture. But we got quite a lot of comments on this episode that there was one specific thing listeners were seeing that we did not say explicitly, but they wanted to point out. And I think you know what I am referring to.
- [35:52]
Dre
I know exactly what you're talking about. During Dr. Carrie McAvoy's episode, there's a part in her story where she's getting really sick. She's really ill. And the listeners heard it, picked up on it, and noted something very specific. I don't even know if I can mention it here, just for legal reasons.
- [36:11]
Andrea Gunning
Right. So let me just play the section from the episode that we're referring to.
- [36:16]
Dre
And then she began noticing other symptoms.
- [36:20]
Andrea Gunning
I have really severe diarrhea, real strange diarrhea that I'd never seen before. It's water. It's clear water. It frightens me because I've never seen this before. And I had white lines like you hit your fingernails with a hammer. I was searching for what causes white lines across all the fingernails. They're called me slines.
- [36:41]
Dre
And it only got worse.
- [36:43]
Andrea Gunning
My toenails were falling off, and my urine was now dark like tea and frothing.
- [36:50]
Dre
And like we said earlier in the episode, we go through a rigorous legal process, and all we could report on was what she was experiencing, what her symptoms were. But we couldn't necessarily name what the audience is basically flirting with because we didn't have any evidence to show. We didn't have medical records. Like, to say that that happened is defamatory. And there are certain things like that like, we just cannot do. I mean, he was never arrested and so for Dr. Carrie McAvoy's episode, you know, she thought that something was happening to her. Our audience thought that, but we couldn't specifically name it for legal reasons.
- [37:33]
Andrea Gunning
Yeah, exactly. That comes up in many of our episodes, almost a half of them. We have a situation where there's something we want to include, but for legal reasons, we can't. Mm. At Ameca Insurance, we know it's more than a life policy. It's about the promise and the responsibility that comes with being a new parent, being there day and night and building a plan for tomorrow today for the ones you'll always look out for. Trust Amica Life Insurance Amica empathy is our best policy.
- [38:26]
Dre
Good news. Your favorite Caribbean beaches are sale@cheapcaribbean.com Cheap Caribbean is your go to website for finding the best deals on all inclusive vacation packages. They're all about getting you more sand for your dollar. Check out their Beach Favorites sale to score $175 instant savings on bookings of four nights or more to the Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Aruba and the Bahamas. Offer ends April 1st. Go to CheapCaribbean.com to start saving.
- [38:55]
Andrea Gunning
Let's be honest, most of us have a love hate relationship with wired bras. We love the lift, but hate the digging. We love the support, but hate feeling trapped. Well, Nyx just changed everything with Free Flex, a wired bra actually designed to work with your body, not against it. Free Flex features a revolutionary flexible wire that moves when you move, bends when you bend, and keeps everything exactly where you want it. No poking, no stabbing, no constant readjusting, just freedom to move. It also has a demi cup shape for a natural lift with a lower neckline that flatters in everything from V necks to dresses. And because it's from Nyx, it's available in sizes for every body. Experience the first wired bra you'll actually want to wear all day. Visit knicks.com for 15% off your order with FreeFlex15. That's K-N-X.com code freeflex15 for 15% off nyx.com dreaming of hydrated skin amidst these dry winter months? Daim offers clean, master esthetician crafted skincare products that deeply nourish, protect and hydrate. Their formulas, made with clean ingredients, lock in moisture for skin that stays soft, smooth and radiant all season long. Hydration starts with Dime's best selling Hyaluronic Acid serum, delivering deep moisture where your skin craves it most. This lightweight, fast absorbing serum helps quench dryness, plump skin and boost elasticity from the inside out. Once your skin is prepped with the serum, seal in all that hydration with their dewy day cream, a rich, luxurious moisturizer designed to provide all day softness and lasting glow together. This powerful duo keeps your skin smooth, supple, and luminous, even in the harshest weather. Shop the duo now@dimebeauty co.com that's dimebeauty co.com and get the hydrated skin of your dreams. Okay, Dre, I have one more question that is about a specific episode, and this one is something that we heard from quite a few listeners, and I think there's a few things we need to say. So this comes from the Chelsea episode. The Chelsea episode that was one of.
- [41:13]
Dre
Our most intense ones. Really intense.
- [41:16]
Andrea Gunning
Mm. She had been dating a guy named.
- [41:19]
Dre
James, and James was having issues with who she was talking to, even at work. And so it was seeming like the walls were kind of closing in. Like he was really controlling every aspect of her communication with people. And there was this moment where things really escalated. She took his phone. She saw things in a hidden folder very similar to Ashley from season two, and she saw what she would assume is illegal material on the phone that she felt like was CSAM child sexual abuse material. She found a photo. I don't really want to go into too much detail, but it was disturbing to her, and she couldn't get the picture out of her head. And she felt like there was something familiar to this photo. And she, like, woke up in the middle of the night, and she's like, I know who these children are. James had friends who had children, and it could be their daughters.
- [42:16]
Andrea Gunning
Yeah. She did a Facebook deep dive. She was never 100% sure, but she was feeling like it probably was, and that's ultimately what led her to go to the police and report it. So let me share one of the questions that we got after the Chelsea episode. This is from a listener who said in episode 16 about Chelsea, she mentions discovering that she thought she knew who the girl in the picture was. Was the girl found and taken out of the home? So this is just one that's representative of, I want to say, 10 questions. We got to the same effect, which is, what happened to this little girl? Is she safe? Is she okay? I wish we had the answer to that, and I wish that it was, yes, she's safe.
- [43:01]
Dre
There's so much we don't know about the photo. First and foremost. Yeah, this could be a photo he found on social media and cropped, you know, because they were wearing bathing suits. So we don't really know. What we do know, and what we discuss with Chelsea is that when she ultimately went to law enforcement, she reported the photo and let them know this is who I think could be the family who has children. And she left it in their hands. And that was something that we didn't include in the show, which, looking back on it, we should have.
- [43:39]
Andrea Gunning
You're definitely right that we should have included that information that she did tell the police who she thought the child was. I mean, the day the episode came out, we were starting to get these questions in from listeners, and we frantically went back to the script and we realized immediately, like, oh, my God, this one piece of tape didn't make the cut. And that would have clarified so much. And we had been so focused on Chelsea's experience and Chelsea's story that when we ended up recounting that moment, when she finally goes to the police. Here's the piece of tape that we did include in the episode. I met with the detective and we had a three hour recorded interview. I showed him everything, told him the same story that I'm telling you now. He was so validating. He said. He told me, he's like, this isn't contraband, but it is absolutely wrong. And you are doing absolutely the right thing by reporting it. But I want to manage your expectations. There are things I can try to do, but this by itself isn't enough. And I was like, I know, that's why it's taken me so long to get here. But then there was this one critical piece of information and tape that we should have put in the episode. It's in that same scene where she's reporting to the police officer, finally reporting James. And this is the piece of tape we should have included in this episode. But I told him, I'm like, this is who I think this child is. And he took all that down and he said he would look into it.
- [45:19]
Dre
Yeah, that would have been. That would have helped a lot of people.
- [45:22]
Andrea Gunning
Yes.
- [45:22]
Dre
When hearing the episode, definitely. Lesson learned column. Lesson learned column.
- [45:27]
Andrea Gunning
And I know a lot of people who wrote in about this episode are just concerned and they want something more to be done. They want to make sure the girl is okay. And so did Chelsea, you know, and some idea of her, like, going directly to James or going directly to those friend's house, like, that is not a safe option. That is physically not a safe option for her.
- [45:50]
Dre
And I know that, you know, Chelsea was fearful of retaliation from James. He threatened her with legal action.
- [46:00]
Andrea Gunning
Mm. He also threatened that he would release nude photos of her that she had consensually sent him and that he said he had deleted, but he had kept. He threatened to send those to her colleagues. So she was feeling pretty scared of this person.
- [46:16]
Dre
Right. And so I think she felt safest letting law enforcement do what they needed to do. And she did the right thing by reporting it.
- [46:28]
Andrea Gunning
She did everything she could have while also keeping herself safe.
- [46:32]
Dre
Yeah.
- [46:33]
Andrea Gunning
All right. Those are all of the questions I have.
- [46:36]
Dre
Oh, great. It's always so good to see and hear feedback from the listeners. No matter what it looks like. Good, bad, the ugly. Like, we really do want to know, you know, especially if there are like, gaps in a story where people were asking, we either have an answer or you just taught us something that we didn't think about. So we really appreciate it.
- [46:55]
Andrea Gunning
Yeah. We love engaging with listeners. We love it when people send in questions and they send in commentary. One of my favorite emails we got this year was someone who wrote in with feedback. And then I'm just going to read from. I think one of the most salient points, quote, one pain point for me when listening is when you focus on survivors who, quote, found love again. Dhonielle's story is case in point. Then she goes on to say, it frustrates me when others tell me I'll find love again or I should date again. I want to heal and build my self esteem and I want to hear more stories about people who come back from this and build a business or go find an incredible and satisfying hobby, start traveling or anything other than jump into another relationship and hope for the best with a new person. I hope you'll keep this in mind when making future episodes.
- [47:47]
Dre
I've thought about that feedback from that listener every episode since.
- [47:54]
Andrea Gunning
Me too.
- [47:55]
Dre
And we can't necessarily editorialize people's life path or where they are when we meet them.
- [48:00]
Andrea Gunning
Yeah.
- [48:00]
Dre
But what I really thought was fascinating is being careful about the language.
- [48:05]
Andrea Gunning
Yes. And I think she was writing into us to bring our attention to language like, you know, so and so found love again. And it's like, well, what do you call that first relationship love.
- [48:18]
Dre
Using the right language is really important. So I'm very grateful for that person to write in.
- [48:23]
Andrea Gunning
Yeah. All this to say, and in bringing up this email we got is that, you know, we're real people making this show and we are grappling with these big questions every day and we love hearing from listeners who have, you know, thoughtful and constructive commentary about the way we present these stories.
- [48:39]
Dre
I think it makes the show better, 100%.
- [48:42]
Andrea Gunning
So we're finished with these weekly episodes for the next few months. We are going to be back in August with new weekly episodes. What is coming up next on the feed? Do you want to talk about it? Dre?
- [48:56]
Dre
I can't believe we've wrapped the weekly series. I think it's been really successful, and I absolutely love the show. We air season four of Betrayal, the limited run on May 22nd. It's about a woman and her family out of Colorado Springs. You know, we're going to hear that story over eight to 10 weeks, and then shortly after that, we'll go back into the weekly series where it's a different story every week or every other week, but in between. So from now through May 22, we have a ton of really exciting bonus material that we've been working on. You've been working really hard on, Mo. We have a great bonus episode with a woman named Dr. Kate Truitt, and she explains the neuroscience of storytelling and how storytelling can be healing after experiencing trauma. We have listener essays that people have submitted based on our prompt, which is resilience in the face of Devastating betrayal. And we have a woman named Andrea Dunlop. Her story, it's kind of like a regular weekly episode, but a little bit shorter to kind of satiate our listeners. So I'm really excited to see what people think of the content that'll be coming out in the next few weeks.
- [50:15]
Andrea Gunning
Well, Dre, I'm gonna scurry back behind the curtain.
- [50:19]
Dre
I'm so glad everyone got to meet you, though. You're the nuts and bolts of this. And so it's really great for the listeners to hear the people that make this show work. And you do great work, Mo. So thank you.
- [50:32]
Andrea Gunning
Thanks, Dre. I feel honored to get to work with a team that is this thoughtful and mission driven and talented and also to get to work with individuals who are trusting us with some of the worst experiences of their life and trusting us to tell those with respect and care, it's really an honor. Cool. All right. Bye.
- [50:55]
Dre
Bye. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your Betrayal story, email us@betrayalpodmail.com that's betrayalpodmail.com we're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning written and produced by Monique Laborde also produced by Ben Federman. Associate producers are Kristin Melchiori and Kaitlyn Golden. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krynczyk. Audio editing and mixing by Matt D'Alvecchio additional editing support from Tanner Robbins betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Baines music library provided by My Music and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartradio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. We've all heard the success stories of weight loss with GLP1 injections, but let's be real, they can be very expensive and hard to access. That's where Henry Meds comes in. No insurance. No problem. You can save over $1,000 a month. Compared to brand name options, Henry Meds has no hidden fees, just affordable, transparent pricing and a team of caring healthcare providers and compounded GLP1 options with both injections and oral medications. Start your weight management journey@henrymeds.com today. Results may vary. Not all patients are eligible. Compounded medications are not FDA approved. Consult a healthcare provider to determine if treatment is right for you. This is Tamara Judge from two T's in a Pod with Teddy Mellencamp and Tamara Judge. Symbiotica is one of the most transparent brands out there. They never compromise on quality and sourcing. Their products are free from seed oils.
- [53:01]
Andrea Gunning
Preservatives, toxins or artificial additives.
- [53:03]
Dre
It's something you can taste and feel in every packet.
- [53:06]
Andrea Gunning
Go to symbiotica.com teapot for 20 off plus free shipping.
- [53:11]
Dre
That's C Y M B I O T I K A slash T E.
- [53:16]
Andrea Gunning
A P O D Symbiotica Wellness Made Simple Tired of restless nights at lisa.
- [53:23]
Dre
They know good sleep is essential for mental, physical and emotional health.
- [53:27]
Andrea Gunning
From memory foam mattresses to hybrids that.
- [53:30]
Dre
Keep you cool all night long, Lisa's.
- [53:32]
Andrea Gunning
Mattresses offer exceptional comfort and support with free delivery and 100 nights to try out your mattress in the comfort of your home.
- [53:39]
Dre
Go to leesa.com today and get 20% off all mattresses. That's le.com and use code iheart for an extra $50 off your purchase. Remember, no matter who you are, there's a Lisa just for you.
- [53:53]
Andrea Gunning
Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families with Greenlight you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores automate allowance and keep an eye on what your kids are spending. With real time notifications, kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place.
- [54:20]
Dre
Try Greenlight Risk free today at greenlight.com iheart.