Crystal | Featured on ABC's Betrayal: Secrets and Lies

Summary

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Betrayal Season 5: Crystal

Podcast: Betrayal
Host: Andrea Gunning (iHeartPodcasts | Glass Podcasts)
Episode: Crystal | Featured on ABC's Betrayal: Secrets and Lies
Date: April 6, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode tells the harrowing and powerful story of Crystal Harris—a woman whose seemingly ideal marriage unravels into a nightmare of escalating domestic violence, culminating in rape, near-death assaults, and a years-long battle for justice. Beyond her personal struggle, Crystal’s journey shines a light on how institutions—law enforcement, the courts, and legal systems—often fail to protect victims and even re-victimize them. Ultimately, Crystal’s resilience sparked critical legal change, providing hope and guidance for other survivors.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Crystal’s Early Years and Marriage to Shawn

• Background & Ambition: Crystal grew up in Southern California, shaped by her parents’ divorce and her mother's lack of financial independence, fueling her drive for self-sufficiency ([06:11–07:57]).
• Meeting Shawn: She meets Shawn at a restaurant job, describing an instant attraction and a “magical” start to their relationship. Shawn is intelligent, athletic, and charming ([08:11–09:59]).
• Life Plans: Crystal is determined and organized about her future: career, marriage, motherhood ([06:48–07:15], [10:08–12:05]).
• Marriage & Family Role Dynamics: Early agreement that Crystal would be the breadwinner, and Shawn would eventually stay home with the kids ([12:34–13:16]).

2. Early Red Flags and the First Assault

• Patterns of Conflict: Shawn displayed passive-aggressive behavior and held grudges (“he would just hold on to things” - [15:16]).
• First Physical Assault: After a fight over sharing a car, Shawn punched Crystal in the face while she was driving, a shocking first for her ([16:51–17:51]).

  “He took his left hand, it was in a fist, and just sort of bopped me in my eye, on my cheek. I just was reeling. I pulled the car over... I had never been hit before by a man in my life.” – Crystal Harris [16:51]

• Immediate Action: Crystal follows through on her principles—police report, restraining order, divorce attorney ([18:01]).

3. Reconciliation and a Second Chance

• Pressure & Promises: Shawn's father, a respected figure to Crystal, urges reconciliation, citing Shawn’s remorse and court-ordered anger management ([18:56–19:46]).
• Cautious Reconciliation: Crystal allows Shawn back after months, but refuses to drop the police charge; Shawn pleads guilty and is placed on probation ([20:41–21:12]).

4. Family Life and Escalating Abuse

• Building a Family: Following years focus on rebuilding, Crystal and Shawn have their first child ([21:50–22:40]).
• Abuse Intensifies: After Shawn becomes a stay-at-home dad, his behavior grows more volatile—he humiliates her in front of neighbors and police are called multiple times ([23:16–24:05]).
• Keeping up Appearances: Crystal hides the truth from family, partly out of pride ([24:05]).

5. Trapped by Threats and Fear

• Escalation After Father’s Death: Shawn spirals into depression, conflict increases, and Crystal feels desperate ([25:04–26:06], [32:36]).
• Death Threat: After returning from a disappearance, Shawn coldly threatens Crystal’s life if she calls police or attempts divorce:

  “He tells me... that is all ending now… if I ever do it again, he’s going to kill me. I believed him. I had never felt so helpless in my life.” – Crystal Harris [26:29–27:09]

6. Desperation and Planning Escape

• Moment of Clarity: After Shawn attacks her in front of their children, Crystal realizes the situation is uncontrollable ([34:12–35:58]).

  "Nothing had ever happened in front of the kids before. And I just realized at that moment how delusional I had been thinking that I could keep any of this under control." – Crystal Harris [34:45]

• Buying a Gun: Crystal decides her only hope for survival is to buy a gun, but must wait out the 10-day waiting period in California, feeling exposed ([36:08–36:52]).

  “I went that very same night. I still remember walking into this gun store thinking that I cannot believe this is my life.” – Crystal Harris [36:37]

7. Documenting the Abuse

• Gathering Evidence: Realizing the need for proof as a victim, Crystal acquires a tape recorder to record threats and attacks ([37:24–37:32]).
• Sexual Assault Caught on Tape: During a violent confrontation, she secretly records Shawn’s rape and threats ([37:43–41:03]).

  "Not only did it catch the rape on tape, it caught his death threat. It caught everything. I kept it like it was the most precious jewel ever." – Crystal Harris [41:03]

8. Final Escalations and Escape

• Second Sexual Assault and Strangulation: Crystal endures another violent rape and life-threatening strangulation ([42:41–43:37]).

  “I’m not gonna die if I leave. I’m gonna die if I stay.” – Crystal Harris [43:37]

• Escape and Police Intervention: Waiting for Shawn to be distracted online, she sneaks out, calls 911, and directs police to arrest him ([45:09–48:48]).

9. Aftermath and Institutional Betrayal

• Immediate Aftermath: Hospital, sexual assault exam, and explaining the truth to her children ([49:01–50:23]).
• Grief and Shock: Crystal describes mourning the loss of her marriage and the future she envisioned ([50:48]).
• Court Battles & Further Injustice: In family court, despite finding of rape and domestic violence, Crystal is ordered to pay spousal support and half of Shawn's attorney's fees:

  “What is that, the rape discount?” (on being ordered to pay $1,000/month support instead of $3,000 due to the domestic violence finding) – [53:17] “He would, like, laugh when we got out of the courtroom, and I kept saying, he's a violent rapist.” – Crystal Harris [52:09]

10. Fighting Back and Changing the Law

• Determined Advocacy: Crystal vows to change California law so that spousal/child abuse survivors would not have to pay their abusers ([54:27]).

  "If you order me to pay this, I am going to get the law changed." – Crystal Harris [54:27]

• Working with Legislators: Her efforts, including working with her assemblyman and district attorney’s association, lead to widespread legislative support ([54:56–55:50]).
• Legal Reform: In 2012, her lobbying results in California law being changed to exempt spousal rape survivors from supporting their abusers financially ([59:03]).

11. Criminal Trial & Its Challenges

• Courtroom Experience: Despite having audio evidence, Crystal faces brutal cross-examination, her actions scrutinized ([56:24–56:39]).

  "When you’re a rape victim, you are on trial too." – Crystal Harris [56:24]

• Partial Conviction: Shawn is convicted only on the charge that was explicitly caught on tape ([57:44–58:04]).
• Fears of Release: Crystal fears for her life knowing Shawn could eventually be released ([58:25–58:42]).
• Taking Precautions: She purchases a protection-trained German shepherd for security ([58:42]).

12. A Serial Offender & Final Justice

• Shawn Offends Again: Upon release, Shawn is arrested for another rape and for sexually abusing a minor, and is sentenced to 100 years to life, partly because of Crystal’s documentation ([60:08–61:13]).

  “You have to get it on the record. Abusers, they don’t stop. They're gonna keep doing it, and they're gonna get worse, they're gonna escalate, and they're gonna get caught." – Crystal Harris [61:13]

13. Healing, Resilience, and Advocacy

• Lasting Impact & Advice to Survivors: Crystal highlights the necessity of evidence, not just “getting out”; legal systems can betray “perfect” victims ([62:05–64:49]).

  “You have to have a shield of some sort when you get out, and that shield is documentation. You have to think like a chessboard... all the way to the end.” – Crystal Harris [63:36–64:05]

• Happier Future: After 12 years without dating, Crystal remarries and builds a new, peaceful life ([62:39–63:10]).

  “I feel like the life I have today is everything I sacrificed and planned for years ago.” – Crystal Harris [63:10]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the institutional betrayal of survivors:

  “What it means to prioritize your pain over your abuser’s potential... even when you have all the documentation, your credibility can still be questioned.” – Andrea Gunning [03:00]

• On the trauma of re-traumatization by the system:

  “The bigger factor is that I'm the breadwinner, and it would be sexist if I don't order some spousal support for the husband… I was just so outraged.” – Crystal Harris [52:09–53:02]

• On the core lesson for survivors:

  “Women are not that well served by the common advice that's given of just, ‘Just get out.’ I feel like that's too simplistic… and that shield is documentation.” – Crystal Harris [63:36–64:05]

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Key Timestamps

• The first physical assault and Crystal's immediate actions: [16:51–18:28]
• Reconciliation and return to Shawn: [18:56–21:08]
• Escalation of emotional and physical abuse after childbirth: [23:16–24:42]
• Shawn’s death threats and Crystal’s realization: [26:29–27:09]
• Crystal’s “plan” (buying a gun): [36:08–36:52]
• Secretly taping the assault: [37:24–41:03]
• Final escape & calling 911: [45:09–48:48]
• Court not believing survivors—ordered to pay support: [52:09–54:09]
• Crystal’s successful legal campaign: [54:43–59:03]
• Second conviction & Shawn’s final sentencing: [60:08–61:38]
• Crystal’s message for other survivors: [63:36–64:49]

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Conclusion & Call to Action

Crystal Harris’s story is a testament to the strength and self-advocacy of survivors. Beyond personal healing, she leveraged her pain to spark legislative change, directly protecting future victims from legal and financial re-victimization. Her story reveals the dangerous myth of the “perfect victim,” the institutional blind spots that endanger survivors, and the vital need for comprehensive planning and documentation when trying to escape abuse. Crystal’s advice to others is powerful: you may need to break the “rules” to protect yourself—your voice, your evidence, and your life are worth fighting for.

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If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic violence, please seek support from trusted resources.
Listeners and survivors can connect with the Betrayal team at [e-mail], or visit their Substack here for further support and community resources.

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Transcript

[Andrea Gunning]

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[Andrea Gunning]

and we are re releasing some of our past weekly episodes and there's a good reason why. For the last year I have been working with ABC on turning some of your favorite episodes of Betrayal Weekly into a TV show. The show is called Betrayal, Secrets and Lies and it airs every Sunday at 10pm on ABC. This week we are re releasing Crystal Harris story. Working on Crystal's story was both challenging and incredibly inspiring. At the time, our team was deep in season five of Saskia's story, so we were already sitting with heavy material and Crystal's story lives in that same space. To me, she's fearless, even though she lived in fear for a very long time. What her story really represents is something we talk about a lot at Betrayal what it means to prioritize your pain over your abuser's potential. Even when there's evidence, even when you have all the documentation, your credibility can still be questioned. And when you come up against systems like the criminal justice system or civil court that don't protect you the way they should, you don't have to accept that as the end of the story. And Crystal did it. She used her voice, she pushed back, and she worked to change the system itself. That's the power of testimony, of speaking, and of just doing the damn thing. If you have not heard this story, I won't give any more away. Hearing Crystal's story is fascinating, but seeing it unfold is a whole new experience. So please check out Secrets and Lies on ABC and Hulu to see Crystal and where her story takes place. Enjoy the episode. Hi everyone, it's Andrea Gunning. Before we start this episode, I want to let you know that we will be talking explicitly about the realities of domestic violence and sexual assault. So please be mindful with this episode.

[Crystal Harris]

I came up with my plan, which was I'm gonna buy a gun. That's my way out. I still remember walking into this gun store thinking that I cannot believe this is my life. I can't believe this is my life.

[Andrea Gunning]

I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything.

[Crystal Harris]

I have a thick skin. You're not going to be able to offend me. I don't ever give off a Vibe of it's okay to mess with me.

[Andrea Gunning]

That's Crystal Harris. Her story is one of an intimate and personal betrayal, but it's also a story of an institutional one. Crystal grew up in the 70s in

[Crystal Harris]

Southern California, which at the time was all orange groves. We lived out in the middle of nowhere, and my parents were hippies.

[Andrea Gunning]

From an early age, Crystal was confident.

[Crystal Harris]

I have pictured myself as an adult since I was little. I mean, five years old. And the vision that always came to me was a, quote, businesswoman. You know, I saw myself with a briefcase and high heels.

[Andrea Gunning]

She's always been the kind of person who visualizes what she wants and makes it happen.

[Crystal Harris]

I had my life all planned out. Just as I saw myself as a businesswoman, I also saw myself as a wife and mother. My plan was to graduate at 21. Hopefully I would have met my husband at some point in college, and we would get married around 23, after I started my career. And then I wanted to have kids when I was 30. That was my plan.

[Andrea Gunning]

Crystal's parents divorced when she was 8, and she moved in with her dad.

[Crystal Harris]

I saw my mom after the divorce. She didn't really have a profession. She had married my dad when she was 18, and she never went to school, and so she had to, like, scramble a little bit. And it made me realize I would never want to be left in that position where I had to rely on someone else for my financial security. So I entered my high school and college years thinking, I've got to have a skill. I've got to know how to do something.

[Andrea Gunning]

It was a formative lesson for crystal.

[Crystal Harris]

I was 16 years old, and I said, I'm going to be a financial advisor. And so once I graduated from high school, I got accepted to college and chose finance as my major and was off from there.

[Andrea Gunning]

During her last summer of college, Crystal was at home in southern California, working as a server at a restaurant. One day, a new guy showed up at work.

[Crystal Harris]

There was this buzz in the restaurant one day. Everyone kept going, oh, my gosh, Sean is back. Sean is here. Have you seen Shawn? And I was like, who's Sean? I finally see him over at the bar. And I was just blown over. I thought he was gorgeous. He was so good looking. He was strong, tan and blonde and muscular.

[Andrea Gunning]

Shawn quickly became one of her favorite co workers.

[Crystal Harris]

I was a waitress. He was a busboy. And, like, if I was just standing at a table with a cup or a plate in my hand, he'd come up and take it from me. He would Never let me walk all the way to the dishwasher.

[Andrea Gunning]

He was her type, and he caught her attention. An all American boy and a former college athlete.

[Crystal Harris]

He attended a private college, and he was on their baseball team. He was the pitcher, and I was impressed. And then I learned that he was a math major, and I was impressed by that too, because I thought, well, you can't fudge it on being a math major. I respected it.

[Andrea Gunning]

Crystal and Sean spent the whole summer flirting.

[Crystal Harris]

One night, we all decided to go out after work. We had been dancing all night, and we had been hanging out with our other friends from work, and we were kind of bar hopping, and there's a little bench outside, and we were sitting on it, and he just kissed me. That led into us having this really cute, fun, almost magical relationship.

[Andrea Gunning]

That first year, Crystal still had a year of college left. She drove the hour home every weekend to spend time with Shawn.

[Crystal Harris]

I would race down after school on Friday, and it would just be like, oh, my God, I missed you. It felt like every weekend was a vacation.

[Andrea Gunning]

Every time she was around Shawn, I was totally smitten.

[Crystal Harris]

He was different. I had never dated anybody that I thought was smarter than me, but I thought he was smarter than me.

[Andrea Gunning]

After she graduated from college, Crystal turned her attention to her next goal, getting a job. She'd gotten her degree in finance, and she wanted to be a financial advisor.

[Crystal Harris]

I really worked hard at getting my foot in the door somewhere. I interviewed everywhere, all the major firms on Wall Street.

[Andrea Gunning]

Then she found a firm who gave her a chance, but she would have to work for it.

[Crystal Harris]

They said, if you can open 25 accounts and bring in $500,000 in assets, then we'll put you into our actual training program. And I said, okay, fair enough. I worked my ass off, and I was able to get that done within four months. And so I got hired.

[Andrea Gunning]

The firm had a branch in her and Sean's town, but before she started working there, they sent her to New York City for a training program. Shawn and Crystal had been dating for two years, and Shawn visited her in New York when he could.

[Crystal Harris]

They would do New York for the weekend as tourists. At some point, we were up at the top of the Statue of Liberty, like in the crown, and that's where he proposed to me. I quickly said yes. And I can remember saying, we can get married. When? Like next week or a year. He said, whatever you want.

[Andrea Gunning]

She planned their wedding in six months. Everything was falling into place.

[Crystal Harris]

I felt totally sure. I love him, he loves me. We're starting Life together. And I was really in a happy place in my life.

[Andrea Gunning]

Her wedding day was picture perfect.

[Crystal Harris]

It was lovely, beautiful. I was happy to be married, but it just, it felt like, of course I'm getting married. Like, this is what I do. It's my plan. This is a day that speaks supposed to come. It's here. Let's do it.

[Andrea Gunning]

Next on the list.

[Crystal Harris]

We got married in January, and by that June, we purchased our first condo. It started us, like, building our life.

[Andrea Gunning]

Shawn's dad owned a used car dealership in town and he got a job working there. But Shawn's career would be temporary. Early on, the couple made an agreement when they were ready to start a family, Crystal would be the breadwinner and Shawn would stay at home with the kids.

[Crystal Harris]

Neither of us believed in daycare, so he had always said he'd be happy to stay home with them. And I just thought to myself, wow, great. That lets me have my career. But I could still have kids.

[Andrea Gunning]

Knowing Shawn would be a stay at home dad when the time came, allowed Crystal to focus on building her career.

[Crystal Harris]

The stock market opens at 6:30am West coast time. It was my job to manage people's portfolios, to figure out what a client needed, what their goals were, what their risk tolerance was, and invest appropriately. You either make it or you don't, and so I always liked that aspect, that the sky was the limit.

[Andrea Gunning]

Her husband supported her career wholeheartedly.

[Crystal Harris]

Sean, literally, from the time we first met, he seemed so proud to be with me. He just loved that I was ambitious and that I knew where I was going. I'd close some new account and I'd come home and he would be just as happy as I was. We would totally celebrate together.

[Andrea Gunning]

They were a regular couple in their 20s, spending weekends with friends. They even joined a rec softball team together, which was especially fun because Sean could show off his college baseball skills.

[Crystal Harris]

We played every Wednesday night and then we would always go for pizza and beer after. It gave me a chance to watch him be amazing because he really was athletically amazing. He could run faster than any other man. He could hit the ball further. I was like, wow. I know he loved me and I loved him very much. That was the base of everything at home.

[Andrea Gunning]

He was affectionate, doting, and for a while things were really great living together. She began to notice they had two different approaches to conflict.

[Crystal Harris]

I'm the type of person, if I'm mad at you, I will tell you right now, but one minute later, I'm fine. It's out. It's over. But Shawn would do things where, let's say he got off work at 6. He wouldn't come home until like 9 or 10 or whenever. And he finally just like strolled through the door and I'd go, what the hell? Why are you late? And he would be like, well, do you remember last Wednesday when you said such and such to me? Well, I've been really mad about that.

[Andrea Gunning]

Crystal had never seen someone hold onto resentment the way that Shawn did. Two years into the marriage, one of their cars broke down. So for a week, Crystal and Shawn had to share a car. They both needed it to get to work. Crystal started her job at 6:30 in the morning. She would take a break around 8:30 to pick Sean up and take him to his job at the dealership. Within just a few days, the car became a source of tension.

[Crystal Harris]

Every day he'd say, come pick me up. Let's say 8:45. And I would get there and he would still be in bed or still in the shower, whatever it was. He was nowhere near ready every day. And I had had it. I was pissed. I didn't like how he was just so dismissive of my time.

[Andrea Gunning]

But one day, the fight over the car became something different.

[Crystal Harris]

We got in a big fight over it. Eventually, we get in the car and I'm driving him to work and we're still fighting. He's in the passenger seat. Next thing I know, he took his left hand, it was in a fist, and just sort of bopped me in my eye, on my cheek. And I just was reeling. I pulled the car over and I'm trying to get my head together, trying to figure out what just happened. I had never been hit before by a man in my life. I just remember thinking, get him to work. And then you're on your own. You've got the car, you've got the safety of the office. Don't provoke him anymore. I just shut my mouth. Not fighting anymore.

[Andrea Gunning]

She had an instinctual reaction, which was to stay calm and get him out of her car. Once she was alone, she knew what she had to do.

[Crystal Harris]

Get back to the office, call the police, call an attorney, call my mom. This is huge. And my marriage is over. That is what I did. I told everybody. And I hired a divorce attorney and filed a police report. I did everything I ever said I would do if a man hit me.

[Andrea Gunning]

When Crystal got home that day, he

[Crystal Harris]

had broken the whole sliding glass door.

[Andrea Gunning]

But Shawn wasn't home. He'd been arrested for assaulting Crystal. She wanted to be Far away from him.

[Crystal Harris]

And I got a restraining order. By the end of that day, he was not allowed to come in the house.

[Andrea Gunning]

They were separated for some time. About a month or so went by. Then Crystal got a call from Shawn's dad.

[Crystal Harris]

I respected his dad very much. And he was telling me how devastated Shawn is and how this was such a huge wake up call for him. He knows he did wrong. His dad kept saying, you know, you're a part of this family. We love you. Sean's already going to anger management classes. I remember thinking, that's great that they have such a thing. It was court ordered, and it just seemed official.

[Andrea Gunning]

This was 1998, when court ordered anger management was still new. This was Crystal's first time learning about it, and she was relieved to hear he was getting help. Despite what Shawn had done, anger management sounded like it was just what he needed.

[Crystal Harris]

I really thought that could be the key to us getting back together.

[Andrea Gunning]

After talking to his dad, she was open to hearing Shawn out. She wanted his apology.

[Crystal Harris]

I was willing to talk to him on the phone, Was trying to get a sense of if he understood how bad what he did was. He really seemed like he was sorry and he did wrong. I thought, I love him, he loves me. I love him. All he needs is a little bit of help to figure out why he did that and we can still have our life together.

[Andrea Gunning]

But she wanted to let him know he'd messed up and he would be held accountable for what he'd done.

[Crystal Harris]

I slowly let him back in the house. It took two or three months. We had our divorce proceeding and everything. I dropped everything, except what I did not drop was the actual police charge. He did it. He hit me. And it was important to me that that stand. So he was prosecuted and pled guilty. And that did go on his record.

[Andrea Gunning]

And the consequences he faced were long lasting.

[Crystal Harris]

He was on probation for three years. And I felt sufficiently satisfied that he was getting that help he needed and that we were going to be okay.

[Andrea Gunning]

That moment in the car felt like an outlier in their otherwise steady relationship.

[Crystal Harris]

There is not like an infidelity issue. There was not even a jealousy issue. I thought that was good. We never fought about money. He was not a drinker, never took drugs, didn't smoke. And I just thought, that's a great foundation for a good marriage. And we loved each other.

[Andrea Gunning]

Over the next three years, they slowly rebuilt trust. Crystal felt grounded in her relationship with Shawn.

[Crystal Harris]

I just remember thinking we should start thinking about having kids. And it was part of my plan. Anyway, so the Following January of 2002, I went off the pill and we started trying to have a baby, and I got pregnant immediately.

[Andrea Gunning]

Crystal was thrilled.

[Crystal Harris]

I couldn't wait for Shawn to get home and tell him in person. Like, I call him immediately and I'm like, I am pregnant. He was happy. He was so happy.

[Andrea Gunning]

Shawn and Crystal found out that they were going to have a boy. They felt really connected through her entire pregnancy.

[Crystal Harris]

He's treated me quite great. It was a very sweet time in our relationship.

[Andrea Gunning]

And in 2002, their son was born.

[Crystal Harris]

Shawn was there. He was crying and loving and proud of me and cheerleading and being perfect.

[Andrea Gunning]

Their son became their whole world. That's when Shawn quit his job and, like the couple had planned, became a stay at home dad.

[Crystal Harris]

He was home with the baby, and I was on maternity leave for like four months. And then I went back. I thought our plan was working out pretty well.

[Andrea Gunning]

But once he quit working, something changed in Shawn.

[Crystal Harris]

The whole thing about putting me in my place and the passive aggressiveness and that kind of stuff seemed to pick up a lot. When Shawn and I would fight, it would be bigger. Things would escalate further than they ever had. It just got to a different level after our first son was born.

[Andrea Gunning]

Like, one time, a fight got so intense that Crystal had to escape to her neighbor's house.

[Crystal Harris]

And he followed me. He comes in there, he grabs me. He opens their fridge and takes milk out of the fridge and just pours it all over me right in front of them.

[Andrea Gunning]

He had humiliated her in front of her friends, and he didn't care. Crystal felt exposed because up until this point, she had been living with Shawn's escalation in private.

[Crystal Harris]

After I took Shawn back, I never told anyone in my family that my life was anything but perfect. Part of it was not even just protecting Shawn was protecting my own ego.

[Andrea Gunning]

Crystal wouldn't dare engage Shawn after an explosive fight. She'd wait for him to cool down, but sometimes that would take days or weeks.

[Crystal Harris]

I wasn't happy, but I felt like I could tolerate a lot to keep my family together for my kids. Like, I could put up with the bullshit.

[Andrea Gunning]

Incidents like this started happening more frequently, and oftentimes, Crystal would get the police involved to help deescalate the situation.

[Crystal Harris]

Never did I get physically assaulted. It was just like, more scary stuff. And I called the police a number of times.

[Andrea Gunning]

Things went on like this for two years.

[Crystal Harris]

And then Shawn's dad got lung cancer and died a month before our second child was born. And it sent Shawn into Deep, deep depression. He was playing video games all night and then he would sleep all day. Even though he's the one home with the kids.

[Andrea Gunning]

Crystal was doing everything she could to hold their family together.

[Crystal Harris]

But it was getting harder as time went on. I would throw out the divorce word pretty often just because I would say, I can't live like this. My intention in doing that was to hopefully have him go, well, oh my gosh, I don't want to lose her. I better straighten up.

[Andrea Gunning]

Crystal was still in love with Shawn. She wanted to fight for their family and hoped that things could be different. And she held onto that hope for five years.

[Crystal Harris]

Shit was happening more and more and more. And finally it gets to the point. Early fall of 2007, something happened. We got in a fight.

[Andrea Gunning]

After the altercation, Shawn left the house. He didn't come back for days. Crystal had no idea where he was or what would happen next. Eventually, he showed back up.

[Crystal Harris]

And when he came back in the house, he was different. So calm. It was like he had been meditating on this whole new plan to keep me in line. He came in with intent. He tells me that he is sick of me calling the police on him. He is sick of me threatening to divorce him. And that is all ending now. That's never going to happen again. And if I ever do it again, he's going to kill me.

[Andrea Gunning]

He was serious and it was terrifying.

[Crystal Harris]

I believed him. I had never felt so helpless in my life. Usually I could come up with a plan. I had no plan. That decisive, planned out person who's got her act together found herself in a box.

[Andrea Gunning]

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[Crystal Harris]

after

[Andrea Gunning]

Sean lost his father, he mentally started to unravel worse than before. Verbal abuse was a constant in the Harris household. When things escalated, Crystal would often call the cops. But after one particularly explosive altercation, Shawn left the house. And after a few days, Shawn came back with a clear he was in control and if she challenged him, he would kill her.

[Crystal Harris]

I remember just trying to play it cool at first, thinking maybe he's still really mad. But whenever I went to revisit it, days later, weeks later, months later, and just say like, you didn't mean that, you're just mad, he would double down on it and say, no, that is what I mean.

[Andrea Gunning]

So Crystal fell in line. She avoided doing anything that could upset him.

[Crystal Harris]

I thought, I'm going to be so nice to him. If I'm so nice to him, how could he be mean to me? But then he said, the meaner I act to you, the nicer you act to me.

[Andrea Gunning]

Anything she did to try and regain control backfired. She needed support.

[Crystal Harris]

For the first time in my life, I start going to church because I am out of answers. I have no plan. I feel helpless.

[Andrea Gunning]

Crystal leaned on the church and its community. There she felt less alone. A few months later, the church was hosting an Easter egg hunt. Crystal wanted to take her sons. They were five and two at the time.

[Crystal Harris]

I begged Shawn to go to this thing with me. It was like, the kids will have so much fun, do it for them. And he did not want to go. He finally, super begrudgingly agreed to come.

[Andrea Gunning]

The whole time Shawn was miserable. He would wander off or snap at her. What was supposed to be a fun holiday event ended up being really stressful. After the event, Crystal and Shawn were pulling out of the church parking lot. Crystal sat in the passenger seat exhausted with the two boys in the back.

[Crystal Harris]

Sean is starting to like flip off these cars and stuff. And I'm like, oh my God, I'm so embarrassed because these are people I go to church with. I just said, sean, do not flip these people off. And I had a snow cone in my hand and I was looking out the passenger window. Next thing I know, the whole thing just explodes because Sean's hand has come across and whacked it out of my face and hit my face a little bit too. And then he takes his finger and he puts it right in the soft part of my throat, like right in the front. And he just starts pushing really hard. And I'm trying to back up, but I'm crying and I'm yelling and I'm telling him to stop. And my son is diagonal from me and my other son's behind me. And hearing all this, the oldest one, he's telling his daddy to stop. Nothing had ever happened in front of the kids before. And I just realized at that moment how delusional I had been thinking that I could keep any of this under control.

[Andrea Gunning]

She needed to get out, but she was afraid for her life. And now she was afraid for her kids lives. In that moment, Crystal made a decision.

[Crystal Harris]

I'm gonna buy a gun. That's my way out to get out of this marriage and stay alive. Because I knew he would come after me. Let's say I called the police that moment. Like that night, I truly believed that he would just be out the next day and come and kill me. I felt like I could not make any moves for safety until I had that gun. It just felt like a lifeline to me.

[Andrea Gunning]

Crystal wasted no time.

[Crystal Harris]

I went that very same night. I still remember walking into this gun store thinking that I cannot believe this is my life. I can't believe this is my life.

[Andrea Gunning]

In California, there's a 10 day waiting period between purchasing a gun and taking possession of it. So for Crystal, it was just a matter of getting through those next 10 days. Once she did pick up the gun, she would take her and her boys and leave Shawn forever. But within a few days, Shawn started threatening her again. She wanted evidence of the threats and violence against her in case she would ever need it in court. This was 2008, before iPhones were mainstream. Crystal had to be resourceful, I thought,

[Crystal Harris]

I'm going to need proof this is happening to me. So I decided I was going to get a tape recorder.

[Andrea Gunning]

As a note for listeners, Crystal is about to describe an instance of graphic domestic violence. If you'd prefer not to hear this, you can fast forward three and a half minutes.

[Crystal Harris]

And so we get to Friday, and I get home from work, and he immediately says to me, I can't stand to be around you. Either you need to leave or I do. I still had my high heels on and my business suit and my nylons and everything. And I just was like, okay, fine.

[Andrea Gunning]

Crystal decided to give Shawn some space. She went up to her bedroom. She'd stay out of his way for the rest of the night.

[Crystal Harris]

I had just gotten in bed, and next thing I know, he comes strolling in the room and wants to have sex. And I said, no, no, we're not having sex. And he starts in on me like, well, we are married, aren't we? And then he starts saying, this is not up for negotiation. I can remember a flood of adrenaline going through my body, like, oh, my God, what is happening? I'm not able to talk my way out of it. He's £220. I was £120. I couldn't hurt him if I tried, whereas he could kill me. And as I realized I'm not getting out of this, I remembered, I've got that tape recorder nearby. I couldn't physically stop this from happening, but I could at least have proof that it was happening. And so I started begging him to let me just go to the bathroom. And it took me a little bit, but he finally let me go to the bathroom. And as I came out of the bathroom, I stopped at my underwear drawer and acted like I was getting something out. And I hit that play and record button. And then I closed the drawer. And then I decided to just try and act like maybe you didn't mean what you were saying before. I'm gonna go check on the kids. Like, I was just trying to, like, get out of there, like, put this off in some way, shape, or form. And he got super mad that I didn't come back to the bed. Then I tried to leave, and he jumped over the bed and grabbed me by the arm and whomped me upside the head and started choking me and pulled me back to the bed.

[Andrea Gunning]

He raped her that night.

[Crystal Harris]

When he's finished, I'm thinking he's maybe gonna feel bad. I don't know. I'm walking to the bathroom to clean up and get a hold of myself. And I'm still reeling from what happened, but I said something like, I can't believe you just fucking raped your own wife. He comes into the bathroom and he hits me again upside the head. And he's like, don't fucking lie to me. I kept saying, okay, I'm sorry. I was confused, okay? And he's like, you're not confused. I'm gonna carve that on your head when I dump your fucking body in a ditch. And he even starts to taunt me about calling the police. He's like, are you going to call the police? Go ahead. I wish you would. Please do give me a reason.

[Andrea Gunning]

Later that night, she checked the tape recorder to see if it had captured anything.

[Crystal Harris]

The audio quality was shit, but it was there. Not only did it catch the rape on tape, it caught his teeth. Death threat that caught everything. I kept it like it was the most precious jewel ever. I didn't leave it anywhere in the house. It would go with me wherever I went.

[Andrea Gunning]

Now Crystal had proof this was a serious escalation in violence. Wednesday was five days away, and that's when she could pick up her gun. In the meantime, she was trying to lay low and survive.

[Crystal Harris]

I'm just going to be super nice to him and just get to Wednesday. The next day I take the kids to Legoland. That day was fine. I had no interaction with Shawn. Sunday, I took the kids to where my mom lived and visited with her. And that was the first time I told anyone what happened. Because now I have a plan. Like, now I can tell her this is what's been happening to me, but don't worry, I've got it under control. And so, of course, she didn't want me to go home to him that day. But I said, I have to. I just have to play along until I get this gun on Wednesday. And she agreed.

[Andrea Gunning]

She went back home and went to work on Monday. The day passed without much interaction between her and Shawn. I want to mention here again that Crystal is going to describe a final escalation in violence. If you'd prefer not to hear this, you can fast forward a minute and a half.

[Crystal Harris]

Tuesday I had a long day just in the office. And when I got home at like 6, 6:30, he just started in on me immediately. Like, where have you been all day? What have you been doing? And he tells me that he was tracking my phone that day and that I'm a fucking liar. And he just put his hands around my neck and he started choking me so hard and so long. And he would not let go. I kept having this thought process in my head, like, is he trying to kill me? Is he gonna accidentally kill me? Either way, I'm dead. And his eyes were black. He did not care at all what I was saying. Nothing I said mattered.

[Andrea Gunning]

He raped Crystal again. This time he was even more violent than before.

[Crystal Harris]

He finally finishes and I just remember getting up completely naked and just walking like a zombie almost to the bathroom and just getting in the shower and crying like the most I've ever cried in my life because I just couldn't believe all this happened to me. I also had like a complete revelation which was, I'm not gonna die if I leave. I'm gonna die if I stay.

[Andrea Gunning]

Crystal was right to believe that her situation was life threatening. A report from the Journal of emergency medicine in 2008 shows that strangulation is one of the strongest predictors of future lethal violence. Victims who have been strangled by a partner are 750% more likely to be killed by that same partner. Crystal was violated, almost died. Shawn seemed unbothered as if it was any other night. He logged on to play video games with his friends.

[Crystal Harris]

Shawn was playing this online role playing game called World of Warcraft.

[Andrea Gunning]

He always played on the third floor wearing headphones, so Crystal hoped he wouldn't be able to hear what she was doing.

[Crystal Harris]

He thought I was going to bed like normal. I put pillows in the bed, then I just walked out the front door. I went all the way out of our gate and I hid in some bushes and I called 91 1. Foreign.

[Andrea Gunning]

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[Crystal Harris]

What happened to her?

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[Crystal Harris]

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[Crystal Harris]

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[Andrea Gunning]

after surviving multiple violent attacks at the hands of her husband, Shawn, Crystal knew she needed to act quickly that night. While Shawn played video games, Crystal snuck out of the house, hid in some bushes in her neighborhood and called 911.

[Crystal Harris]

I had left the door unlocked and I gave him permission to go in and I told them where he was and they just went up there to the third floor and arrested him.

[Andrea Gunning]

Crystal called the police at 9pm but her night wouldn't end until noon the next day.

[Crystal Harris]

I was with police and we were waiting on search warrants and we were getting the kids out to my parents. I had to go to the hospital that night for a sexual assault rape test.

[Andrea Gunning]

After finishing the medical exam and filing a police report, Crystal's attention turned to her kids. They'd been home during both attacks, but they were in their bedrooms. Crystal was confident that they hadn't seen or heard the attacks, but they had been in the car a week earlier after the Easter egg hunt.

[Crystal Harris]

Immediately, when I'm back with them, I tell them the truth. Because here's the thing. My son who saw Shawn hit that snow cone out of my face and kind of choke me. Kept saying, are you going to do something? We need to call the police. But I kept telling him, like, mommy has it under control. So this is now like a week and a half after that. And now his dad's in jail, and I just linked him. I just said, remember when Daddy hurt mommy? He's in jail. He hurt Mommy. And it just made complete sense to him. He was like, okay, yeah, he shouldn't have hurt you.

[Andrea Gunning]

Then Crystal had to tell the rest of her family and close friends what she had been through.

[Crystal Harris]

My dad was just devastated. Dated everyone, Just couldn't believe the way that my life had been for so long.

[Andrea Gunning]

With Shawn in jail, Crystal felt relieved. But she was surprised to find that there was another emotion.

[Crystal Harris]

Grief. I made vows to this man. I spent my whole adult life with him. I made children with him. I actually mourned for. For quite a long time after he was arrested, the life I thought I was gonna have with him.

[Andrea Gunning]

In order to cope, Crystal threw herself into work.

[Crystal Harris]

Work was keeping me sane, and things were so crazy every day at work.

[Andrea Gunning]

Crystal had always been the breadwinner in her marriage with Shawn. She managed the family's finances, so when Shawn's bail was posted, Crystal was the one in control.

[Crystal Harris]

When they first arrested him, I canceled all of his credit cards, so it made whatever was in his wallet not work. Because I thought his bail would probably be like 25 grand or 10 grand or something. He had like a million 350 bail. I felt safe with that.

[Andrea Gunning]

Shawn's criminal trial took multiple years.

[Crystal Harris]

The worst thing that happened during those two and a half years is Shawn finally did make bail. He's living with his mom. He becomes a cab driver.

[Andrea Gunning]

While they waited for the criminal trial, Crystal and Shawn were duking it out in family court, negotiating custody of the kids. And on top of that, Shawn was demanding money.

[Crystal Harris]

Shawn wanted spousal support. And we haven't had the criminal trial yet. And so my word is the only evidence in the case at that point. In family court, the judge rules that, yes, there was domestic violence and rape in this case. That's just one factor, though. And the bigger factor is that I'm the breadwinner, and it would be sexist if I don't order some spousal support for the husband. I was just so outraged. I remember leaving court that day. Sean passed me in the car and had a number one sign like, he's the winner. He rubbed it in my face. He would, like, laugh when we got out of the courtroom, and I kept saying, he's a violent rapist.

[Andrea Gunning]

According to the family court judge, Crystal would have to pay the man that raped her, violated her, the man that almost killed her. At the next hearing, the judge ruled on how much Crystal would pay Shawn in spousal support.

[Crystal Harris]

Shawn normally would have been awarded maybe $3,000 a month, but because of the domestic violence finding in this case, the judge said, I'll knock that down to $1,000 a month. And I remember someone saying, what is that, the rape discount? And not only did I have to pay him spousal support, I also was ordered to pay half of his attorney's fees, another $47,000.

[Andrea Gunning]

Crystal knew this wasn't right. Survivors shouldn't be forced to pay their abusers.

[Crystal Harris]

Around that same time, I had happened to see a date line where a woman in California was ordered to pay spousal support to the man who was convicted of attempting to murder her.

[Andrea Gunning]

This woman had to pay the man that wanted her dead. But instead of accepting the ruling, she had worked to change the law in California. Crystal thought that survivors of spousal rape deserved the same protections. And it got her thinking the next time she was in court.

[Crystal Harris]

I can remember saying to the judge, I said, if you order me to pay this, I am going to get the law changed. And he was like, you're going to change the law?

[Andrea Gunning]

When Crystal sets her mind to something, she gets it done. She got to work right away.

[Crystal Harris]

I went to my local assemblyman, and when I went into the office, I said, I'm a constituent of yours. And I just told them what happened.

[Andrea Gunning]

After hearing Crystal's story, her local representatives agreed the law needed to be changed to better protect survivors. They began the process of writing a bill and sharing Crystal's story with other California lawmakers.

[Crystal Harris]

Every single person that we've talked about it to would just be horrified and stunned to find out that this could even happen to someone, that they could be forced to pay their own rapist spousal support.

[Andrea Gunning]

The bill quickly gained traction.

[Crystal Harris]

Almost immediately, there was, like, 20 different lawmakers that had their name on this bill. The district attorney also agreed that this law should be changed and volunteered to write the law. The fact that the district attorney wrote the law and it was backed by the entire California district attorney's association lended us a huge amount of weight.

[Andrea Gunning]

But the process of introducing the new bill and changing California law would take time. While Crystal and Shawn's family court case dragged on, Shawn's criminal trial finally began. Crystal Gathered all the evidence she had, including the tape recording of Shawn's violent attack.

[Crystal Harris]

I don't know what I expected. I kind of maybe expected just to go in and be like, here's the tape and ask me whatever you want and just have them believe me.

[Andrea Gunning]

During the trial, Crystal discovered a horrible truth.

[Crystal Harris]

When you are a rape victim, you are on trial too. You're cross examined and every move you made, every decision you made is scrutinized. As much as his,

[Andrea Gunning]

Crystal thought the trial would be quick because she had a recording of the attack. And on that tape, Sean could be heard making explicit threats against her life. The recording was played in her trial.

[Crystal Harris]

The fact that I taped what happened to me just for that same reason, where I'm thinking, God, how is anybody going to believe this? It just was like, wow, in 2008, it was just not done. Nowadays, everybody tapes everything.

[Andrea Gunning]

As for Sean's legal defense, what's the

[Crystal Harris]

only defense you can come up with if there's an audio tape? Oh, we were role playing, of course, you know, that's his defense that he goes with. Their defense was so insulting to me.

[Andrea Gunning]

Sean was facing three very serious charges.

[Crystal Harris]

He was charged with forced oral copulation, spousal rape, and sodomy.

[Andrea Gunning]

When the verdict finally came down, the jury only found him guilty on one of those three charges.

[Crystal Harris]

The jury convicted him of the forced oral copulation, which is on tape.

[Andrea Gunning]

But the jury was deadlocked on the two other charges, sodomy by force and forcible spousal rape. Even though those acts were caught on tape. Two, the jury wasn't fully convinced, so the court ultimately dismissed the charges.

[Crystal Harris]

I was mad. I was mad at that verdict.

[Andrea Gunning]

It raises the question, if Crystal hadn't recorded the attacks, would there have been a trial at all? Because she was married to her rapist, Crystal felt like the courts treated her case differently. After the verdict, he was sentenced to six years for the crime.

[Crystal Harris]

And I remember thinking, what am I going to do when he gets out? Because like, it all starts again. My fear of him killing me, my worry for my kids, everything, it just will begin again.

[Andrea Gunning]

She started thinking of ways she could protect herself when that day came.

[Crystal Harris]

And so I got a security protection trained German shepherd. He was amazing. That moment on, I knew I was safe, like between all the other stuff I had. But the dog. Like, I knew Shawn couldn't be hiding in my house. It finally gave me peace of mind.

[Andrea Gunning]

Shawn would be locked up for five years while he was still behind bars. She worked hard to change the law. So she wouldn't have to pay him spousal support once he got out. In 2012, after a year of lobbying, California passed a bill which introduced exceptions to spousal support payments in cases of spousal rape. The bill protects spousal rape victims whose abusers have been convicted in criminal court from being financially obligated to their attackers. Crystal was instrumental in getting this legislation passed. She told her story again and again to help lawmakers understand if they can't

[Crystal Harris]

put a face to the bill, it doesn't mean anything. For some reason, you can't just introduce this in theory, like, this could happen. No. You have to be like, no, it happened to her, and she's sitting right here at the end of it all. I'm so proud of what I've done and what I've been able to get done.

[Andrea Gunning]

But the story doesn't end there. Six years after Shawn's release, Crystal got a call from the district attorney's office.

[Crystal Harris]

The deputy district attorney was sort of like, I'm so sorry to bother you. I know this might be upsetting, but I wanted to let you know that Shawn Harris has been arrested.

[Andrea Gunning]

After Shawn got out of prison, he was arrested for raping another woman and sexually abusing that woman's underage daughter. Crystal felt like she'd been telling the courts for years about how dangerous Shawn was. She was enraged that it took him harming two other people for his violence to be taken seriously.

[Crystal Harris]

He is a fucking criminal rapist, and he did it to someone else. But here's the thing. When Shawn was arrested in 2021, again for the same crime, and charged with five felonies in that case, this time, he was sentenced to 100 years to life. Because the conviction in my case was in the record, it all counts.

[Andrea Gunning]

If Crystal hadn't pressed charges or hadn't documented his crimes, Shawn's sentence could have been much lighter.

[Crystal Harris]

You have to get it on the record. Abusers, they don't stop. They're gonna keep doing it, and they're gonna get worse. They're gonna escalate, and they're gonna get caught. And you need to have it on the record all along the way so that they can finally get what they deserve, like Sean finally has, and he's sentenced to 100 years to life.

[Andrea Gunning]

That sentence gave Crystal a sense of relief to live the rest of her life without fear.

[Crystal Harris]

I'm not sure I would be where I am mentally today without that, because there's just this level of I would never, ever have let my guard down. If he was out ever. And that's just a hard way to live.

[Andrea Gunning]

Crystal never expected to become an advocate for survivors of spousal rape and domestic violence.

[Crystal Harris]

At this age of 53, I just have a compassion that I didn't have when I was young. Life is hard. I've learned, like, everybody has something, and it's shocking how many people have this. Have domestic violence or some aspect of domestic violence in their life.

[Andrea Gunning]

After she left Shawn, she needed a break. She wanted to prioritize herself and her kids, so she decided not to think about dating until her kids were at least 18.

[Crystal Harris]

I ended up going 12 years without dating. In 2020, I let myself go on a dating app for the first time, and I met an amazing man. We're married today, and he could not be be a better person.

[Andrea Gunning]

In the past few years, Crystal has been thriving. She and her husband live together on a beautiful hillside in southern California.

[Crystal Harris]

We've got 10 acres and built a custom house. We can see all the way to the ocean, all the city lights below. It's amazing. I feel like the life I have today is everything I sacrificed and planned for years ago.

[Andrea Gunning]

We end every episode with the same question. Why do you want to share your story?

[Crystal Harris]

I loved him. I wanted everything with him. And the fact that that same man is the one who made me so afraid for my life, that's the betrayal. I feel like women are not that well served by the common advice that's given of just. Just get out. I feel like that's too simplistic. You have to have a shield of some sort when you get out, and that shield is documentation. You have to think like a chessboard board. Think all the way to the end. I just feel like women need to hear that they're not told that by the official sources because it's. It's a little bit counter to safety. Sometimes you could get hurt doing the recording. You could get hurt by staying long enough to get the documentation. And it's, like, not the legal thing to say, but I'm just telling you that's what you need. If you are victimized the way that I was and the way that so many people are, you should not be the one who is living in fear.

[Andrea Gunning]

On the next episode of betrayal weekly. We pull out of our house.

[Additional Sponsor/Advertiser]

We get about two blocks from the old house, and he looks at me

[Andrea Gunning]

and he says, I think I'm getting ready to be arrested. Within seconds of that coming out of his mouth, the squad car lit us

[Crystal Harris]

up and pulled us over.

[Andrea Gunning]

If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your Betrayal story? Email [e-mail] that's betrayalpodmail.com or follow us on Instagram betrayalpod. You can also connect with me on InstagramdreaGunning to access our newsletter, view additional content, and connect with the Betrayal community. Join our [e-mail] we're grateful for your support. One way to to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. This episode was written and produced by Olivia Hewitt and Monique Louis Board with additional production from Ben Federman Casting support from Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krynczyk. Audio editing and mixing by Matt d' Alvecchio Additional audio editing by Tanner Robbins Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines Music library provided by My Music and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. From coast to coast. Unlock Adventure at Red Lion Hotels by Sinesta where restful sleep, friendly service and trusted local knowledge are part of every stay. Red lion makes it easy to feel welcomed, comfortable and connected wherever the road takes you. Whether you're traveling for business or pleasure, you can spend less and make more of every trip. When you sign up for Sonesta Travel Pass, you'll get our best rates instantly. Go to sonesta.com to book your stay and unlock the best rates with Sonesta Travel Pass. Here today, Rome tomorrow. Join [e-mail] Terms and conditions apply.

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[Andrea Gunning]

This episode is sponsored by Virgin Voyages. There's something about the ocean. It creates space. And sometimes space is exactly what you need. Virgin Voyages is adults only. No kids, no chaos, no buffets. Just beautifully designed spaces, award winning food and room to actually breathe. Over 20 restaurants are included, plus entertainment, Wi Fi, fitness classes all. All covered. No surprises. No emotional or financial whiplash. It's not just a vacation. It's perspective. It's reset. It's choosing yourself. And sometimes that's the bravest thing you can do. Plan your [e-mail] when it comes to advancing your education, you have more options than you think. At Rasmussen University they find ways to remove barriers, not build them like a new laptop if you're eligible and enroll in select online or on campus programs. That also means flexible and engaging online courses and resources, tuition saving options if you qualify, exceptional student support and much more online nationally or check out their 20 campuses across six states. Start when you're ready and get the support you need. Visit Rasmussen. Edu. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.