Dan & Sage | Betrayal Weekly

Summary

---

Betrayal Weekly – "Dan & Sage"

Podcast: Betrayal Weekly
Episode Title: Dan & Sage
Date: December 18, 2025
Host: Andrea Gunning
Guests: Dan Kimball & Sage Kimball

---

Overview:

This episode of Betrayal Weekly explores a profound family betrayal told from two sides: a father (Dan) and daughter (Sage), both of whom had their lives upended by the actions of the family's matriarch, Farah. Through their parallel and eventually converging narratives, Dan and Sage unpack the slow realization and aftermath of deceit, manipulation, and lost trust at the hands of the person they both loved most. The story explores themes of control, alienation, financial betrayal, healing, and the complex interplay of love and trust within families.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

I. Childhood and Family Context

[04:12 – 13:32] Sage’s Early Years & Family Dynamics

• Sage grew up in Santa Barbara, CA, in the 1990s, a self-described “hippie town.”
• Parents Dan and Farah met due to their shared interest in Buckminster Fuller and built a life together around sustainability, activism, and Sufi Islam.
• Farah was a charismatic, affectionate, but stern mother and an active peace activist, organizing humanitarian efforts, notably for Iraqi civilians during sanctions.
• The family faced Islamophobia (e.g., opposition to Islamic-inspired architecture) and eventually relocated to Bali, Indonesia, seeking a sense of belonging.

Notable Quote:

“She was affectionate. She would hug me, she would kiss me. She would play with me… I felt like she was the thing that made me safe.”
— Sage Kimball [05:26]

---

II. The Move to Bali and the Emergence of Control

[13:32 – 18:15] Relocation, Risk, and Shifting Power

• All family home and inheritance was poured into a property in Bali, transforming into a raw food resort to capitalize on Farah’s new health craze.
• Farah became increasingly focused on finances, involving Sage (then a teenager) in secretive practices: opening foreign bank accounts, buying and storing gold bars, and creating private safety deposit boxes.

Notable Quote:

“There was a safety deposit box in Malaysia that her and I had the key to. That was a secret and I wasn’t allowed to tell anyone that it existed...”
— Sage Kimball [15:23]

[16:08 – 16:43] Role of Religion in Control

• Farah invoked her closeness to God, using faith as leverage for obedience:

“The understanding was that she's like a step below God… If you're going against her, you're going against God.”
— Sage Kimball [16:12]

---

III. Alienation and Entrenchment

[17:31 – 19:17] The Matriarchal Trust & Family Alienation

• Farah framed a “matriarchal” family trust, persuading Sage to become signatory—excluding Dan from financial control.
• Farah simultaneously undermined Dan’s reputation to the children:

“She started telling the kids their dad didn’t love them anymore… If he cared about you, he would get a job.”
— Sage Kimball [18:07]

• Dan was physically and emotionally excluded, frequently sleeping in outdoor quarters as Farah weaponized the trust of the children against him.

---

IV. Dan’s Perspective: Realization of Betrayal

[23:44 – 41:14] Dan’s Version & Exclusion from Finances

• Dan describes a slow-burning betrayal that built over years, not moments.
• He had always managed family finances until Farah gradually seized all monetary control, first claiming a need for independence, then excluding Dan from big financial decisions.

Notable Quote:

“The betrayal wasn’t something that happened in a moment. It happened over a long time, and I didn’t even recognize it was happening.”
— Dan Kimball [03:07]

• After selling their Bali property for $3 million and moving to Malaysia, Dan discovered—only after being locked out of his own home—that all trust assets had been transferred to Farah’s sole control, orchestrated with the help of a family friend as trustee.
• When Dan confronted the trustee:

“I just remember being outraged that he would do this. How did this happen? We can’t move on like this. Change it back. It has to be corrected.”
— Dan Kimball [40:19]

---

V. The Fracture between Father and Daughter

[44:44 – 49:57] Alienation, Doubt, and Reconciliation

• Sage, isolated in New York, was told by Farah that Dan was abusive and not trustworthy.
• When Dan informed Sage she was legally implicated in the trust lawsuit, Sage struggled, torn between the narratives.
• Farah manipulated Sage, demanding signatures to cut Dan out entirely. Sage refused—causing a permanent rift with her mother.
• Despite Sage's refusal, Farah produced a document with Sage’s forged signature.

“He was like, your signature is on the document… I just told my dad again and again, I didn’t do it, and he believed me.”
— Sage Kimball [50:13]

---

VI. Confrontation, Therapy, and Testimony

[50:37 – 55:21] Healing and Legal Battle

• Sage began therapy, breaking the cycle of control and gaining clarity.
• She traveled to Malaysia to testify in court, laying bare her manipulation and the falsification of her signature.
• The family court discounted Sage’s and Dan’s testimonies, outright dismissing Dan’s lawsuit, causing a further sense of injustice.
• Hard-hitting moment:

“It basically said in there, she’s not believable. And this was like, hit me to the core. It’s like, how could that be?”
— Dan Kimball [54:56]

---

VII. Aftermath, Justice, and Rebuilding

[55:34 – 62:35] Loss, Acceptance, and the Road to Healing

• Appeals were impossible due to procedural barriers and lack of funds. Farah threatened legal action to silence Dan and Sage’s GoFundMe campaign.
• Dan returned to the US, starting from scratch in his late 60s, subsisting on minimal income while processing trauma and reconciling with his daughter.
• Sage clarified that it was Farah’s abuse of religion, not Islam itself, that enabled control.
• Therapy facilitated a new foundation for their relationship built on truth and forgiveness.

Notable Quotes:

“One of the things that I think was extremely positive about this was that suddenly Sage and I could have a relationship that was based on truth.”
— Dan Kimball [59:05]
“Justice... might not look like what we wanted it to look like… The justice that we have is that we have this relationship which is more valuable than any of the money or any of the things. And she doesn’t get to have that.”
— Sage Kimball [61:29]

---

VIII. Reflections on Betrayal and Transformation

[62:47 – 64:14] Closing Reflections & Why Tell This Story

• Dan and Sage share the intention of their story: not to demonize Farah, but to speak truth and seek healing.

Notable Quotes:

“This is about transformation, right? How can I be better as a result of the impact of this?... If we want a better world, we should build a better world.”
— Dan Kimball [62:53]
“It’s more to be able to share our experiences and be 100% truthful... I hope that on the other side of this is healing for him too, because he deserves that.”
— Sage Kimball [63:21]

---

Memorable Moments & Key Timestamps

• Sage’s secret bank trips & gold ([15:23])
• Farah giving Sage financial control as a feminist act ([17:03])
• Dan discovering total exclusion from trust ([39:26])
• Sage confronting evidence of forgery ([50:13])
• Sage’s therapy journey and breaking free ([50:37])
• Dan & Sage's healing and reconciliation ([59:05], [60:11])
• Their philosophy on justice and family ([61:10])
• Closing reflections on sharing the story ([62:53], [63:21])

---

Tone and Language

The episode is emotionally open, reflective, and honest—but never lurid or vindictive. Dan speaks with steady, sometimes pained clarity; Sage shows vulnerability as she processes anger, confusion, and finally, forgiveness. Andrea Gunning’s narration is empathetic and keeps the focus on truth-telling and resilience.

---

Conclusion

Dan & Sage is a deeply personal, multi-generational story about how systemic trust can be shattered not in a single moment, but over years, by someone closest to us. It’s also about reclaiming narrative and family through truth, mutual support, and the willingness to heal. While there is little legal or financial justice, the emotional restoration between Dan and Sage stands as a testament to their resilience and honesty.

---

Transcript

[Sage Kimball]

This is an iHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human.

[Andrea Gunning]

Now streaming on Paramount plus, it's the new limited series Little Disasters. Based on the book by the author of Anatomy of a Scandal and starring Diane Krueger and Joe Joyner, Little Disasters is a gripping story of unraveling secrets and fractured relationships that will have you on the edge of your seat. Bella magazine declares. If you loved Big Little Lies, then this psychological drama is for you. Little Disasters Binge all episodes on Paramount plus.

[Sophie Cunningham]

This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, or OSA in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snored loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at. Don't sleep on OSA.com this information is provided by Lilly, a medicine company.

[IBM Advertiser]

So you're telling me that the AI that's meant to make everyone's job easier to manage just adds more to manage? On top of the thousands of apps the IT department already manages, Funny how that works. Any business can add AI. IBM helps you scale and manage AI. To change how you do business, let's create Smile to Business. IBM.

[Andrea Gunning]

Did a GLP1 help you lose weight, but now you're noticing unwanted facial changes. The weight came off, but facial volume loss and dull sagging skin are making you look older. That's where the next phase of your weight loss journey comes in. There's before weight loss, after weight loss, and the after After. Help restore and refresh your facial skin and reclaim your natural looking youthful glow. To learn more, visit faceafterweightloss.com that's faceafterweightloss.com.

[Sage Kimball]

There was a safety deposit box in Malaysia that her and I had the key to. That was a secret and I wasn't allowed to tell anyone that it existed. And we'd like go put gold bars in this like safety deposit box that has the big vaulted door. It was like the slow burn to like that wasn't weird to me.

[Andrea Gunning]

I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. Usually each episode of Betrayal Weekly follows one person's story, but today's episode is told by two members of the same family, a father and daughter.

[Dan Kimball]

The betrayal wasn't something that happened in a moment. It happened over a long time, and I didn't even recognize it was happening.

[Andrea Gunning]

That's Dan Kimball. He's a mild mannered Midwestern man in his late 60s. He and his daughter Sage had their world shattered by the person they both trusted most. Here's Sage.

[Sage Kimball]

In my normal life, I don't talk about this to my friends or my people, except for some very close friends. Because, like, how do you even start to tell this story?

[Andrea Gunning]

When we first reached out to them about telling their story on betrayal, to.

[Dan Kimball]

Be honest, when I got that message from you, I thought it was a scam.

[Andrea Gunning]

But the title of our show caught his attention.

[Dan Kimball]

Betrayal. The word betrayal was the thing that kind of struck my mind.

[Andrea Gunning]

Our team spent months talking with Dan and Sage. They went back and forth about if they wanted to use their real names in this episode. After taking time to think, they came back with a clear answer.

[Sage Kimball]

If we're telling the truth, what do we have to be afraid of?

[Andrea Gunning]

We're going to start this story from Sage's perspective. She grew up in picturesque Santa Barbara, California, in the 90s.

[Sage Kimball]

At the time, it felt more like a hippie town. You could do outdoorsy stuff. I have very fond memories there of, like, finding banana slugs and being outside.

[Andrea Gunning]

Her parents were both eccentric citizen of the world types. They originally met because of their mutual love of the visionary architect and designer Buckminster Fuller.

[Sage Kimball]

They met at Buckminster Fuller's birthday party, and then they were friends years before they ever were in a relationship.

[Andrea Gunning]

Her dad, Dan, spent most of his life doing sustainable design, working on cutting edge computer technology. He's the one who nurtured her childhood curiosity.

[Sage Kimball]

My dad would be curious about what I was interested in, and he'd get excited about it. I was really obsessed with, like, space for a little bit. And he, like, built a planetarium with me and, like, let me go on the street and, like, sell tickets for people to, like, look into my planetarium show.

[Andrea Gunning]

Dan was a constant and gentle presence for Sage and her mom, Fara.

[Sage Kimball]

She was affectionate. She would hug me, she would kiss me. She would play with me. Like, outdoorsy things she loved doing with me.

[Andrea Gunning]

As a kid, Sage always wanted to be close to her mom.

[Sage Kimball]

I felt like she was the thing that made me safe. I couldn't exist without her. Like, I believed that I wouldn't exist without her.

[Andrea Gunning]

Farah was a Sufi Muslim. She came to the religion as a teenager when her dad was working as a diplomat in Iran. That's where Farah Fell in love with Islam. It became a part of her identity, and she raised her daughter, Sage, in the faith.

[Sage Kimball]

We all called ourselves Sufis, which is a sect of Islam. We'd have these, like, Sufi gatherings at our house with, like, dancing. There would be, like, 40 people coming over, and, like, I'd just get to, like, hang out. Those Sufi parties were a lot of fun for Sage.

[Andrea Gunning]

Growing up as a white Muslim girl in Santa Barbara was a unique experience.

[Sage Kimball]

Friends would ask me, like, are you embarrassed to walk around with your mom because she wore this? It's a hijab, but it's also, like, a cape thing. People would ask me if my mom was a nun.

[Andrea Gunning]

Her mom started wearing long white robes that looked like a nun's habit. Dan sewed them for her by hand. Sage wasn't embarrassed about her mom. She wanted to be like her because her mom really lived out her values. She was a peace activist.

[Sage Kimball]

We'd go to a lot of anti war or peace rallies. When I was growing up, I remember feeling really cool that we were out there doing something about the world.

[Andrea Gunning]

In the 90s, Farah organized a movement to send medicine and supplies to civilians in Iraq. Sage remembers watching her mom's work with pride.

[Sage Kimball]

I was about 5 or so. My mom was going on a humanitarian aid trip where a group of people were going to be breaking the sanctions to deliver medicine and things to the people in Iraq. That was a super cool thing that my mom did. Like, that's so brave and so cool.

[Andrea Gunning]

Dan was deeply involved in this movement, too. It was a family effort. The Kimballs were instrumental in raising millions of dollars for medicine to be sent to children in Iraq. As much as Sage loved her mom and wanted to be just like her, Farah could be stern.

[Sage Kimball]

I remember from a very young age knowing that what mom says goes, like, if you did something wrong, you knew immediately to, like, get it together. And it almost like her eyes changed.

[Andrea Gunning]

Whenever Sage did something wrong, Farah taught her how to make amends.

[Sage Kimball]

My tactic from an early age was writing her a note or a letter. I'm gonna see if I can find it, actually. Oh, here it is. I found it. There's a part here that says, thank you for teaching me what Islam is. I don't know where I would be today if not for you. Even though it may not seem like it now because I didn't live up to my d or help you out. I truly love you. You are the most important person in the world to me.

[Andrea Gunning]

Farah was often upset with Sage's dad. Dan. Sage didn't know why, but she wanted to help.

[Sage Kimball]

Once I was like 8, 9, 10, I learned that I should try and fix it. So I would go and talk to him and then I would go and relay information and I would go tell him, here's what you should do. I know how to fix these problems.

[Andrea Gunning]

Sage was confused by her parents relationship.

[Sage Kimball]

I never saw them be affectionate with each other. I don't think I ever saw them kiss or like hug. They said they really loved each other, but I'd see like my friend's parents and they'd be like arm around each other or like holding hands.

[Andrea Gunning]

Farrah put pressure on Dan to bring in more money for the family. That became a source of a lot of their fights.

[Sage Kimball]

At a certain point my mom started saying that, well, it's the man's job to provide. Like I shouldn't have to provide anything because it was his job to make sure that there was food on the table.

[Andrea Gunning]

Their family was growing. When Sage was 8 years old, her parents had two more kids, twin boys.

[Sage Kimball]

I was pumped because I was like, great, even better, now I get two friends, not just one.

[Andrea Gunning]

Money was a stressor. Dan had one unsuccessful tech startup of his own, but he always landed on his feet. At the time, he worked for an early microcomputing company doing user interface design. Plus they were in the middle of building their dream home in Santa Barbara. Farah and Dan had been designing it together. It would be a sustainable home that incorporated Islamic architecture.

[Sage Kimball]

There was a house that we were trying to build in Santa Barbara that got cut because it had a dome. And people said that the dome was, we're trying to build a mosque.

[Andrea Gunning]

It was 2005, a time when Islamophobia was rampant in the US. Sage encountered it at school.

[Sage Kimball]

I do remember that being like a Muslims are terrorists, like that being said and me fighting with people about that.

[Andrea Gunning]

Farah and Dan learned that it was one of their neighbors who made Islamophobic comments about the design of their house. It made them want to live in a place where they weren't outsiders.

[Sage Kimball]

I was in ninth grade at the time and I remember coming home and there were like boxes packed.

[Andrea Gunning]

Farah wanted to move the family to a Muslim majority country. Dan quit his job and planned to work remotely on tech startups in Asia. A few months later they went to visit a family friend in Bali, Indonesia.

[Sage Kimball]

And then we didn't leave.

[Andrea Gunning]

Bali's actually majority Hindu, but Farah felt comfortable there. And they found the perfect property.

[Sage Kimball]

It was a big piece of land. And there's a river down below, and you look across at, like, rice fields, and you could see on a clear day, like, Mount Agung, which is the big volcano in Bali in the distance. Like, it was incredible, beautiful, beautiful. But at the time, it was just a piece of land. There was nothing on it.

[Andrea Gunning]

The family packed up their whole lives, put most of it in storage, and relocated to Bali. They got to work building an estate complete with an organic garden and a set of traditional Javanese villas.

[Sage Kimball]

They're called joglos, and they're these really cool Indonesian structures that are like, no nails.

[Andrea Gunning]

The family came together with neighbors and friends to help with the construction. They also started a main house where the family would live. It was a huge undertaking, and though she was 14, Sage knew her parents were taking a big risk.

[Sage Kimball]

Buying that property was like, everything we had. So, like, you're putting all your eggs in that basket.

[Andrea Gunning]

To afford this piece of land and the construction costs, Dan and Farah had used all of their resources. They sold their property in Santa Barbara and put their savings, including all the money Dan had inherited from his parents, into the Bali property. Once it was completed, it would be an oasis, a tropical paradise for their family, one they could monetize. Farah had the idea to start a raw foods business at the house in Bali. They would host tourists and chefs who were leaders in the raw food movement. It's a diet of mostly fruits, nuts, and vegetables.

[Sage Kimball]

Health and wellness was another big thing that she was into. She got really into, like, raw food and actually made a cookbook with, like, delicious raw food recipes. But, like, there were always extremes in that.

[Andrea Gunning]

That year, Farah took Sage on a solo trip to visit a community run by women.

[Sage Kimball]

There's an Indonesian tribe that's still a matriarchal society, which it was actually really sick. Like, it was a very cool, beautiful, peaceful society.

[Andrea Gunning]

Sage was about 15. After that trip to visit the matriarchal society, Farah brought her daughter along more often, including for business matters and important errands.

[Sage Kimball]

I started going to banks with her to do banking things.

[Andrea Gunning]

Around that same time, Farah began bringing the kids on trips with her where she was buying gold bars.

[Sage Kimball]

A gold bar. I remember at the time it being, like, $10,000 and us going and getting, like, six gold bars or something like that. This was also the time she was getting into Alex Jones and, like, money and corruption.

[Andrea Gunning]

Alex Jones is an American media host. He's built a large following through commentary on politics, culture, and government institutions. He's best known for promoting Conspiracy theories and fear mongering about economic collapse.

[Sage Kimball]

I think that was where the influence to get the gold came from. Because it was like, this is how you keep your money safe.

[Andrea Gunning]

Some of those trips are seared into Sage's memory. Like when they went to Singapore, we.

[Sage Kimball]

Would go to Singapore to buy gold because it was a good place to buy gold. And then she would have me and my brothers put, like, you have those, like, you know, those like travel bags that go like under your clothes. She made it seem like it was a normal thing.

[Andrea Gunning]

She started talking to Sage more and more about finances. And Farah told her these trips, the gold, the banking, it was their secret.

[Sage Kimball]

There was a safety deposit box in Malaysia that her and I had the key to. That was a secret and I wasn't allowed to tell anyone that it existed. And like, there's like armed guards outside of this, like, safety deposit area and we'd like, go put gold bars in this safety deposit box that has the big vaulted door and like a guard at the door. It was wild. But, like, again, it was like the slow burn to, like, that wasn't weird to me.

[Andrea Gunning]

Sage knew she wasn't allowed to question her mom.

[Sage Kimball]

I was so intertwined with what she wanted. I don't think I was even always told what I was doing. I just did whatever she asked me to do.

[Andrea Gunning]

Sage trusted in her mom's connection to God.

[Sage Kimball]

That was so central to how she parented me was, here's God, and then we are all serving God. The understanding was that she's like a step below God. God is speaking to her. It was like, if you're going against her, you're going against God.

[Andrea Gunning]

Eventually, Fara let her daughter in on her plan. She wanted to create a matriarchal financial structure within their own family.

[Sage Kimball]

She's a feminist, and she wants a matriarchal society, and the women should be in charge of the finances. That was the first time I heard that, like, we are going to do this matriarchal thing as part of this structure.

[Andrea Gunning]

Farah wanted Sage to be the signatory on their family trust instead of her dad or one of her brothers.

[Sage Kimball]

When I became the signatory on that trust document, it was because we were treating this like the women have power over the finances. Like, it's going to be so progressive.

[Andrea Gunning]

Sage was on board. She signed the documents her mom asked her to.

[Sage Kimball]

The understanding was like, if you're a feminist or if you care about women, you will also support this.

[Andrea Gunning]

Farah explained to Sage that this had to be done because she said their dad wasn't good with money. Farah told the kids that Dan's job in tech startups wasn't good enough.

[Sage Kimball]

He'd go get investment in a company that he was working on, and then she would say that investment isn't income. That's stealing money from people for these businesses. And so she would say to us that, like, your dad is just swindling these people out of their money because he won't get a job. And if he cared about you, he would get a job.

[Andrea Gunning]

But it wasn't just Dan's job that was the problem. She started telling the kids their dad didn't love them anymore.

[Sage Kimball]

She would say to us that, like, your dad doesn't care. He doesn't care about you. He's a deadbeat. He doesn't care about his kids. I know you love him, but if he cared about you, he would be doing something to protect you.

[Andrea Gunning]

Dan was often traveling for work, away from the house, but whenever he was home.

[Sage Kimball]

I remember later on in my teenage years, my dad was sleeping in, literally, this, like, outdoor shack. But it was because I begged her not to kick him out fully.

[Andrea Gunning]

Farah explained to the kids that she was scared of Dan.

[Sage Kimball]

She would ask me to be a witness if he was talking to her because she wanted a witness when he was abusive to her. Like, if I cared about her, I'd be there to protect her in that.

[Andrea Gunning]

By the time Sage left for college, she believed she had to protect the family from her dad. And a big part of that meant keeping the family money out of his hands.

[Sage Kimball]

The understanding was like, in order for us to have anything, we have to make sure he doesn't have access to these things because he's just going to squander it. And my dad didn't know any of this.

[Andrea Gunning]

All of this, from the trips to the bank to the stories she told.

[Dan Kimball]

The kids, I was completely oblivious. And I think it was orchestrated that way.

[Andrea Gunning]

If you could stop somebody from breaking in before they got inside, why wouldn't you? Most old school systems go off after someone's already in your place. That's too late. That's why I use Simplisafe. It's proactive, not reactive. Simplisafe takes home security to the next level with a double layer of defense designed to stop crimes before they even start. I've been using Simplisafe for a few years, and honestly, I. I can't imagine not having it now. Setup was super easy. I had it up and running in under an hour. No tools or wiring needed. The mobile app is my favorite feature. I can check in anytime, see live camera feeds, and even arm or disarm my system right from my phone when I'm away. I know that the 247 monitoring team always has eyes on things, which gives me real peace of mind. AI powered cameras can detect potential threats outside your property before they even reach the door. Then live monitoring agents jump in in real time through the camera, talking directly to the person and letting them know that they're on video and that police have been dispatched. They can even trigger a loud siren or bright spotlight to scare off intruders right then and there. That's true prevention, not just detection. There are no long term contracts or hidden fees you can cancel anytime this month. Only take 50% off any new system. This is one of the best prices you will ever see for SimpliSafe. Don't miss it. Hit simplisafe.com betrayal again. That's simplisafe.com betrayal and lock in your discount. There's no safe like SimpliSafe.

[IBM Advertiser]

So let me get this straight. Your company has data here, there and everywhere, but your AI can't use the data because it's here, there and everywhere? Seems like something's missing. Every business has unique data. IBM helps your AI access your data wherever it lives. To change how you do business, let's create Smile to Business IBM.

[Sophie Cunningham]

This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, or osa, in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snored loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues. It may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at don'tsleep on OSA.com this information is provided by Lilly, a medicine company.

[Pets Best Insurance Advertiser]

The following ad is sponsored by Pet's Best Insurance Services. You knew right away he's perfect. The one for you. Those puppy dog eyes, that cute little button nose. You don't even mind the drool. When you find your perfect match in a dog or cat, the love is unconditional. Your budget, on the other hand, has realistic limits. Help protect your heart and your wallet with Pet insurance from Pets Best. With plans starting from less than a dollar a day, you can get up to 90% cash back on eligible vet bills. Pets Best makes it easy to Pick a plan that works for you and your bank account. Find the perfect match for your Perfect [e-mail] Pet insurance products offered and administered by Pet's Best Insurance Services LLC or underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company or Independence American Insurance Company for terms and conditions, visit www.petsbest.com. policy products are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company, Independence American Insurance Company or Ms. Transverse Insurance Company and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services LLC. $1 a day premium based on 2024 average new policyholder data for accident and illness plans. Pet that's age 0 to 10.

[Andrea Gunning]

Once the Kimballs moved to Bali, Farah began acting differently. She isolated her oldest daughter, Sage, and told her stories about how her father didn't love her. It got in Sage's head. Her mom started taking her to the bank and asking her to sign documents. Now we're going to hear Dan's perspective starting from when they moved to Bali. It's something that was difficult for him to revisit. Dan met Farah when they were teenagers. They were friends for 15 years before they became a couple. They shared the same core value, wanting to make the world a better place.

[Dan Kimball]

And I appreciated that about her, definitely very much a global thinker and she's a very charismatic person. I mean a really beautiful soul in many ways.

[Andrea Gunning]

By the time they got to Bali, they'd been married for almost 20 years. Dan didn't share the same religious zeal as Farah did, but he respected her values. So when she said she wanted to move to Indonesia, the decision had already.

[Dan Kimball]

Been made for me really. She wanted to be in a Muslim culture. And you know, I've never one to really complain. I was always wanting to just go along with what we were trying to do.

[Andrea Gunning]

Dan had been the breadwinner for most of their marriage. Working in tech startups meant that sometimes he had a high paying job and sometimes he was in between gigs. But through it all, he made sure the family was okay financially. In fact, Dan had been the one managing the couple's money since the beginning.

[Dan Kimball]

I took over responsibility for all the finances. I just, I made the books every month and just did it and paid the bills. I tend to knew the cookbooks and putting it all together and working with the tax people and just getting it all organized. I don't think that she had ever really had a desire to handle money stuff.

[Andrea Gunning]

Over the course of their marriage, Dan watched his wife become more and more religious. She'd chosen her own name, Farah. Religion became her whole life by the Time they got to Bali.

[Dan Kimball]

There was kind of a delusional nature to her describing herself. She was so close to God that she could understand things that were beyond my understanding.

[Andrea Gunning]

But Dan saw the value in living abroad. Once he toured the property in Bali, he was sold on Farah's dream to make that happen financially.

[Dan Kimball]

We moved all of our assets to Indonesia through. We started a company in Indonesia so money would go to this company. We have to have one Indonesian director. So a good Indonesian friend was the director. My wife and I were the other directors, and we owned it. 50. 50. The Indonesian director didn't own any, and most of the assets then to buy the property were bought through this company. We paid a huge down payment to buy the property.

[Andrea Gunning]

It was a big financial risk, and it brought Dan and Farah closer. They both believed in what they were building together in Bali, even if it meant pulling all of their available resources.

[Dan Kimball]

Oftentimes people think, oh, you must have been so wealthy to do all that stuff. No, we weren't. We just were brave enough to go and do it right. I mean, it was risky in the sense that we spent a lot of money to buy that property, and we just. We didn't mind living with that kind of risk.

[Andrea Gunning]

At the beginning of their move, the family had to stay in a hotel for a couple weeks there. Dan noticed Farah was taken by the new lifestyle they could afford abroad.

[Dan Kimball]

We lived for quite a long time in this fancy hotel, and I didn't know why we were staying there because it was costing us too much money. And I was kind of complaining about it. But she was very pushy around money, like, you know, no, we're going to do this. We're going to spend the money that it takes to do this. And of course, it's both. It's all our money.

[Andrea Gunning]

That hotel stay was temporary. Dan was busy orchestrating and designing the construction project. He was there for nearly every step of the process.

[Dan Kimball]

And we built it up into this beautiful little mini resort, which was all based on raw food, which was a wonderful kind of niche for us, because anyone anywhere in the world that was interested in raw food would come to our place. It was the only place in Bali that you could get raw food at the time. And so we trained people in how to make raw food. In fact, some of the people that went to these New York raw food restaurants were trained by us.

[Andrea Gunning]

Farah loved living in Bali. They both did.

[Dan Kimball]

I just fell in love with Bali.

[Andrea Gunning]

Once most of the construction was done, Dan started traveling around Asia, consulting for A series of tech startup. Sage was finishing high school. The twin boys were in elementary school, and Farah seemed to be pulling away from Dan every time he came home from a business trip. Farah became increasingly distant. After a year or two, it got.

[Dan Kimball]

To the point that we didn't have a relationship anymore. I mean, we never slept together. We never. I was in separate quarters from her, but I just went along with it.

[Andrea Gunning]

Dan was under pressure to keep bringing in a steady income, and he was scrambling to make that happen. He figured it was normal for he and his wife to go through stressful years where they drifted apart. The only thing that bothered him was when Farah started taking the kids on trips and telling Dan she didn't want him there.

[Dan Kimball]

There was a lot of exclusion, like, okay, Sage and I are going to go to Indonesia now and buy some more teak to try to find the teak for the house. And you're going to stay here, right? It's just like telling me what I had to do and how I'm going to do it.

[Andrea Gunning]

This had been their dynamic for almost their whole marriage. Farah called the shots and Dan was happy to go along with her choices. But after they moved abroad, her choices began to exclude Dan.

[Dan Kimball]

There are many vacations that they went on that I didn't go on because I was pushed out of it.

[Andrea Gunning]

One of those trips, my wife wanted.

[Dan Kimball]

To visit this community in Malaysia that is a Muslim society where the women are in control of everything. So it was of interest to her.

[Andrea Gunning]

A few months after that trip, Farah started taking an interest in managing their finances herself. She told Dan she wanted her own private bank account, and he didn't see any issue with that. After about five years at the raw food resort in Indonesia, they were approached by a land developer. He wanted to buy their land at a premium. Sage was about to go off to college and the twins were 10. The family was ready for a new chapter. So they made the sale.

[Dan Kimball]

We sold the property in Indonesia for $3 million.

[Andrea Gunning]

Dan and Farah put that money into a new family trust that they established in Malaysia. That's where they would be moving next. They'd had something similar in Indonesia, but not with nearly this amount of money in it. So the formation of this trust in Malaysia was a big deal.

[Dan Kimball]

This notion of a trust was very important to us. We both understood what it was. But the word trust, I don't think had the same meaning to her that it had to me.

[Andrea Gunning]

For Dan, the family trust was about ensuring safety for their kids futures. It was for his and Farah's future too. Like always, ownership of the trust would be divided evenly.

[Dan Kimball]

The company we created in Indonesia was 5050 held. The company that was created in Malaysia was held by the trust, which we were co creators of. We were named in the trust as co grantors. We moved all the assets to Malaysia.

[Andrea Gunning]

When they sold their property in Bali, they'd actually just sold the land, not the houses they'd built. Those were theirs if they could find a way to move them. The big house had been a special project of Dan's.

[Dan Kimball]

So then we decided, well, hey, let's bring the house from Indonesia to Malaysia because we didn't want to start from scratch.

[Andrea Gunning]

Their plan was to deconstruct the house in Bali piece by piece so they could rebuild it somewhere else.

[Dan Kimball]

We asked everybody from the village to come and help us knock down these houses. And within three days, they tore it down, packed it all up. So a few months later, we had two giant shipping containers come to us in Malaysia with our house.

[Andrea Gunning]

They found a piece of land in Malaysia where they could reconstruct their dream home. And now they could afford to take their time. They hired an architect who saw their vision. The project became Dan and Farah's focus.

[Dan Kimball]

We had a lovely time designing and building and working with the architects. And like we're working on something other than us. It wasn't about us, it was about this thing we were doing together.

[Andrea Gunning]

When the house was completed, it was breathtaking. Picture a jungle oasis with flowers, floor to ceiling windows and towering hand carved doors. Tropical plants and natural light flooding every room. And because it was the same structure they originally built in Bali, it wasn't just beautiful, it was meaningful. The house was a symbol of what their family could accomplish together.

[Dan Kimball]

We rebuilt our property, this gorgeous place, into this extraordinary house.

[Andrea Gunning]

Once they got settled in Malaysia, Dan got back to work.

[Dan Kimball]

During this time, I opened a kind of a consulting company and I had some contracts with technology development work.

[Andrea Gunning]

One of his main contracts was in a city a few hours away. But this time, when he would come home from work trips, he experienced a new level of isolation. It was as if the whole family was giving him the silent treatment. When he asked Farah what was going on, she said she didn't know what he was talking about. So Dan responded by throwing himself into work and building up his own social network.

[Dan Kimball]

With lots of my friends and people that I built relationships with, like this architect and our next door neighbor. I became good friends with them, but she never wanted to even go over there.

[Andrea Gunning]

Dan Was making enough for the family to live comfortably, and he liked his work. Around this time, Dan was offered a salaried job. It paid a lot, but it was a role he didn't want. When he brought it up to Farah, she showed a renewed interest in Dan.

[Dan Kimball]

My wife was pushing to try to get me to take this job. When I told her I'd turned it down, it's like she blew up. She was upset by this.

[Andrea Gunning]

This is when Dan first heard about her desire for the women in the family to control the finances. You heard Sage talk about that earlier in the episode. Sage had been in on this for years, but she was told not to talk about it with her dad. So Dan was just learning about it in Malaysia.

[Dan Kimball]

Of course, it's all our money, but she's the one who's kind of now starting to control it.

[Andrea Gunning]

If it was important to Farah to control the finances, he was okay with that. It gave him peace of mind knowing that the trust was still held. 50 50. With a friend of theirs serving as director. But after Farah took over management of the family's daily spending, the marriage deteriorated even further.

[Dan Kimball]

And it was like, very tumultuous time. She argued with me and demanded that I move into the maid's quarters.

[Andrea Gunning]

Dan didn't even know what he'd done to make his wife so upset. But now he was always walking on.

[Dan Kimball]

Eggshells, and I thought we were still in love. This is where I realized that love wasn't the same thing. Love was transactional for her.

[Andrea Gunning]

Now that the house was nearly completed, Dan felt like he wasn't useful anymore.

[Dan Kimball]

There was no need for me anymore. I felt like I was. Yeah, it was like a discard.

[Andrea Gunning]

Around that time, Dan was on a business trip when he was robbed.

[Dan Kimball]

Two guys on the motorcycle went and grabbed my bag and drove off with my computer and my passport and everything else.

[Andrea Gunning]

He had to call Farah and beg for her help.

[Dan Kimball]

This issue of me needing to get enough money to buy a computer that had been stolen and, like, what kind of position had I got myself into to be so subservient to funds that were ours, to thinking that I had to beg for it.

[Andrea Gunning]

For Dan, this was an emotional breaking point.

[Dan Kimball]

I realized, hey, there's. There's something seriously wrong here. There was something that cracked.

[Andrea Gunning]

Dan managed to get himself back home, but when he arrived at the house.

[Dan Kimball]

I go there, try my key. It doesn't work. And I realized, oh, she's changed the key. The doors had been locked, and I wasn't welcome Anymore.

[Andrea Gunning]

With no other place to stay and no access to their money, Dan started sleeping in a friend's car.

[Dan Kimball]

During that time, I basically ran out of funds. We had plenty joint funds, and she just wouldn't send any money. And I felt suppressed from even asking, you know, I was literally living out of a friend's car. I don't think she thinks of it that way, but I was homeless. It pushed me into homelessness.

[Andrea Gunning]

Dan still believed that if he could just sit down and talk with his wife, they could figure out a path forward. It would probably mean divorce and separating their assets. He just wanted to look her in the eye and make the decision together. A few days later.

[Dan Kimball]

I remember going to the house once, trying to see her and just talk with her about this in just a very calm way. Just like, what's going on? What did we do about this?

[Andrea Gunning]

He knew Farah went on a bike ride every morning, so he waited for her by the front gate of their house.

[Dan Kimball]

She was riding a bicycle toward me, and I was there ready to greet her. She looked straight ahead and acted as if I was a tree. Just drove past me without even glancing my direction.

[Andrea Gunning]

That moment when Farah passed him on the bicycle was one of the last times Dan would ever see his wife. Because the next time he met with their accountants, he learned something that would alter the rest of his life.

[Dan Kimball]

I went there, and we were going over the documents, and they said, well, the shares were transferred into your wife's name. I said, what? The shares were? Those are the trust shares that were transferred into my wife's name on this date. And there's something. And they were just dealing matter of factly. Right. They showed me the documentation that said that this is the transfer. And I said, well, what about the directorship? He says, yeah, she was made director, too. And I was just. I was just dumbfounded. At that meeting.

[Andrea Gunning]

Dan had been completely locked out of their family trust.

[Dan Kimball]

She only needed the approval of the trustee. So somehow she talked to the trustee.

[Andrea Gunning]

The trustee was a friend of theirs who lived locally.

[Dan Kimball]

I think she started to work. Work on him and said, okay, I'm gonna. I'm transferring all this stuff over into. Into my name. I'm gonna be the director now. I mean, he wish went and did it. He just signed the papers thinking, I mean, that's what his claim was. Oh, was, you know, she's your wife. You know, it's all been approved by her and you.

[Andrea Gunning]

Dan had not approved for his half of the trust shares to be transferred into his wife's Name that gave her sole access to their entire life savings. But he hadn't signed any documents. He had no knowledge of this transfer. Dan immediately called their friend who'd been the trustee.

[Dan Kimball]

I just remember being outraged that he would do this. And how did this happen? We can't move on like this. Change it back. It has to be corrected. And I was absolutely adamant about it.

[Andrea Gunning]

But this isn't the kind of thing you can just request to change back. There was a lot of red tape.

[Dan Kimball]

I worked for months, literally most of the rest of 2017. I talked to multiple attorneys about how do we do this because it's already been signed over. I talked to the trust attorney. He finally said to me, listen, you're gonna have to get an attorney. I can't do anything because she's not gonna agree to it and the trustee can't do it on his own and blah. You know, there's all kinds of crap.

[Andrea Gunning]

Dan's life was on pause as he tried to educate himself about international trust laws and marriage laws.

[Dan Kimball]

My entire life savings are tied up in this and I'm literally penniless.

[Andrea Gunning]

If he wanted recourse, he would have to go through the Malaysian court system.

[Dan Kimball]

I'm going to have to file suit and I'm going to have to file suit against my wife and the company that's in the trust. Even my daughter has to be on the suit because she was the signatory to the trust. It was just mind bendingly painful.

[IBM Advertiser]

So you're telling me that the AI that's meant to make everyone's job easier to manage just adds more to manage? On top of the thousands of apps the IT department already manages? Funny how that works. Any business can add AI. IBM helps you scale and manage AI to change how you do business. Let's create Smile to Business. IBM Foreign.

[Sophie Cunningham]

This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea or OSA in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snored loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability, and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at don'tsleep on OSA.com this information is provided by Lilly, a medicine company.

[Pets Best Insurance Advertiser]

Protect your pet with insurance from Pets. Best plans start from less than a dollar a day. Visit petsbest.com Pet insurance products offered and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Co. Or Independence American Insurance Co. For terms and conditions, visit www.petsbest.com. policy products are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company, Independence American Insurance Co. Or Ms. Transverse Insurance Co. And administered by Pet's Best Insurance Services, LLC. $1.00 a day premium based on 2024 average new policyholder data for accident and illness plans. Pets age 0 to 10.

[Matt Rogers]

This is Matt Rogers from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

[Bowen Yang]

This is Bowen Yang from Los Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

[Matt Rogers]

Hey, Bowen, it's gift season.

[Bowen Yang]

Ugh. Stressing me out. Why are all the people I love so hard to shop for like me? Exactly, honey.

[Matt Rogers]

I'm easy. But you're right, holiday gifting is stressful.

[Bowen Yang]

And all the gift guides out there are boring and uninspired.

[Matt Rogers]

Wait, what about the guide we made.

[Bowen Yang]

In partnership with Marshalls where premium gifts mean incredible value?

[Matt Rogers]

It's Giving Gifts, a series of guides filled with premium gifts at great value for everyone on your list.

[Bowen Yang]

Yeah. Cause if I see one more for the dad who likes golf list, I'm out.

[Andrea Gunning]

Right?

[Matt Rogers]

How about something for the people who.

[Bowen Yang]

Actually surprise you with categories like best gifts for the mom whose idea of a sensible walking shoe is a stiletto. Psst, she wants a pair of stilettos.

[Matt Rogers]

Or best gifts for me that were so thoughtful I really shouldn't have dying.

[Bowen Yang]

To see what those are.

[Matt Rogers]

And you won't believe their prices.

[Bowen Yang]

Just wait till you see what else is in there. It's basically a one stop shop for everyone.

[Matt Rogers]

You know, I started bookmarking half the list for myself. Honestly.

[Bowen Yang]

This is the guide for the 2025 holiday gifting season.

[Matt Rogers]

Check out the guide on marshalls.com it's.

[Bowen Yang]

Giving gifts gift the good stuff. Stuff at Marshall's.

[Andrea Gunning]

For the final act of this story, we're going to hear from both Dan and Sage. Because what happened next didn't just unfold around them. It happened between them.

[Sage Kimball]

Can I add on to that, dad?

[Dan Kimball]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Andrea Gunning]

We wanted to bring them together to tell the end of the story from their joint perspective.

[Dan Kimball]

Sage, your experience was very different than my own because it comes from, you know, me being a husband rather than being a daughter are totally different. But yet the same thing happens.

[Andrea Gunning]

Sage had been hearing horrible stories about her dad. They'd been kept away from each other for so long that they weren't living in the same reality.

[Sage Kimball]

I was alienated from my dad for years because she Told me he wasn't trustworthy.

[Andrea Gunning]

When Dan was locked out of the house, Sage was in college. She was barely speaking to her father at the time. She only heard her mother's version of.

[Sage Kimball]

The story when she changed the locks. She then was posing it at the time as like, he's trying to break in and being like, I'm terrified. And I remember being angry at my dad, like, leave her alone, because she's making it seem like he's trying to like, hurt her or something. And I never thought he was capable of hurting her.

[Andrea Gunning]

After the trust was transferred out of his name, Dan reached out to Sage to tell her what was going on. That's when he began putting the pieces together about why Sage was so distant.

[Dan Kimball]

I didn't realize that I had been spoken ill of for many years. And so that the impressions that I got from my early discussions with Sage were that, wow, you don't know me.

[Andrea Gunning]

Sage was 23 and living in New York City when her dad called her.

[Sage Kimball]

He said, hey, I want you to know I am filing a lawsuit against your mom. But because you were on that document, I also have to sue you. But it's like, I'm going to cover your lawyer fees. We're going to just get your statement and then you'll be recused. He was talking to me about how this was all going to work before doing it.

[Andrea Gunning]

But when Sage talked to her mom, she heard a completely different story.

[Sage Kimball]

It escalated to like, why would you want to have a relationship with my abuser? Like, you're an abuser too, if you want to have a relationship with my abuser, even if that person is your father.

[Andrea Gunning]

Her mom's story was confusing to her. Sage had mediated her parents fights before, but she had never seen anything physical. In fact, Sage's personal experience of her dad was that he was a quiet and gentle guy.

[Sage Kimball]

From the time I was born, he was gentle and he listens. In all of the fights. The times when my mom would be crazy, he wouldn't even raise his voice. I think I've heard him yell twice in my life. I've never seen him hurt an animal. I've never seen him hurt anything.

[Andrea Gunning]

When he first came to her in crisis, Sage was deeply conflicted about who to believe.

[Sage Kimball]

I was like, I don't believe you. Show me the proof. And seeing the proof of like, here's this money that was given to me. Here's this, here's what we bought. A huge part of that was his inheritance. That even got us the house in Bali. And I was starting to believe in him.

[Andrea Gunning]

But Sage still didn't want to be in the middle of this. She tried to completely remove herself from the situation.

[Sage Kimball]

I got, like, a notarized letter that was just like, this should be solved between my parents. I should have never been on this document.

[Andrea Gunning]

This notarized letter didn't change anything. She was legally implicated in this.

[Sage Kimball]

My dad was like, I don't want you to be in the middle of it either, and you are in the middle of it. And I would start listening to him more. I was trained that he was so awful that, like, you're just lying to me. But I was like, I want to know what his side is. So I listened. And, like, we had a conversation where he, like, told me all the things like that were going on.

[Andrea Gunning]

Then Farah came to Sage with a new document, One that would close the trust entirely and make it much harder for her dad to ever access his life savings. If she signed this piece of paper, she would be taking a side. There would be no going back. Sage didn't want to be responsible for the millions of dollars in shared assets her parents were fighting over.

[Sage Kimball]

And she posed it as, I just need your signature on this thing. I just need your one signature. And I told her, no, I'm not going to sign it, because I don't want to be in the middle of this.

[Andrea Gunning]

But saying no to her mother was the red button.

[Sage Kimball]

It felt like me choosing not to sign it was me choosing to not have a relationship with her. I could just sign it, and then this would be over, and I wouldn't have to deal with this excruciating pain. But I didn't. And that was, like, the first time that she truly stopped speaking to me.

[Andrea Gunning]

And then came the call from her dad.

[Sage Kimball]

He called me and was like, did you sign the document? And I said, no, I didn't. I promise you, I didn't sign the document. And he was like, you didn't sign? Are you 100% sure? And I'm like, I. This was the hardest thing I've ever.

[Andrea Gunning]

Done in my life.

[Sage Kimball]

I'm 100% sure I didn't sign the document. And he was like, your signature is on the document. I just told my dad again and again, I didn't do it, like. And he believed me.

[Andrea Gunning]

Then how did her signature get on the document? Sage felt like her own boundaries had been violated.

[Sage Kimball]

And then I started therapy. And that also really, really was the thing that helped me process and understand and start to gain clarity. It was through therapy that I started to set boundaries with her. And then that. Then it's over.

[Andrea Gunning]

Going to therapy helped Sage understand that her dynamic with her mom was not normal. Like how her mom would react whenever Sage wasn't doing what she wanted.

[Sage Kimball]

She would pretend she had a knife, and she'd be like, this is what you're doing to me. Like, stabbing her. Like, it was awful.

[Andrea Gunning]

When Sage moved to New York, she began forming her own identity separate from her mom. She started making new friends and forming new ideas about the world. Instead of being happy for her, Farah began ignoring Sage's calls and distancing herself emotionally from Sage. Meanwhile, Dan's case moved forward. A hearing was set in Malaysia, and Sage made a decision she never thought she would.

[Sage Kimball]

Ultimately, I decided to be involved in the court case. I think it was also for myself, because I think there was something about that that was healing to get to finally say this happened to me in a public way.

[Andrea Gunning]

Sage submitted a notarized affidavit to the Malaysian court declaring that she did not sign for the revocation of the trust, nor did she have any knowledge of the transfer of the trust assets or knowledge of Farah becoming director. When the hearing date came, she and her dad went together to Malaysia, and Sage took the stand, giving an emotional testimony about the ways she felt manipulated by her mother. Sage didn't expect the way her mom's lawyers responded to her testimony.

[Dan Kimball]

During her testimony, they showed a picture of us happily, you know, in a family gathering with us together. We're all smiling in the picture. And they said, this looks like you're being abused. Or is this like a picture showing that you are abused? And of course, you look at the picture and say, no, I mean, I look happy, you know, but the reality is, is that what is in a picture doesn't show what's really behind the scenes.

[Sage Kimball]

Being told literally to my face. Would someone who's being abused look like this on a holiday vacation? Would someone who's being abused be smiling like this? Your mom has done this, this, and this humanitarian for the world. Like, you're just lying.

[Andrea Gunning]

That contradiction between her humanitarian work and her family's lived experience with her was also something Dan and Sage had to come to terms with themselves.

[Sage Kimball]

It's not always just a black and white. Someone is good or evil that you can have parts of you that are good, and it doesn't take away from the fact that you can do something terrible.

[Andrea Gunning]

When Dan looks back on all the humanitarian work Farah has done, he sees a pattern.

[Dan Kimball]

In retrospect, it looks like, she was doing a lot of these right things for the wrong reasons. The right things were like medicines to Iraq, you know, doing all these wonderful things. But it wasn't for the reasons I thought it was for the reasons that it got her attention, it got her notoriety. That's what she loved.

[Andrea Gunning]

After the hearing, they waited for the ruling, and when the decision came, they were shocked.

[Dan Kimball]

They dismissed the case. How could that be? I didn't know why. I didn't know why it had been dismissed. There was not a judgment. There was only a dismissal. My trace of that's strange is this never happens.

[Andrea Gunning]

Even Dan's attorney was confused. He'd been confident in their case. An outright dismissal wasn't even on the radar. But the court was. Was saying Dan didn't even have a leg to stand on.

[Dan Kimball]

I just immediately said, that's wrong. We can't have this.

[Andrea Gunning]

Dan's dad had been a judge as a kid. He'd sit in his dad's courtroom and bang the gavel. He was raised to value justice and fairness, and when his case in Malaysia was dismissed, he felt justice had been denied.

[Dan Kimball]

The core part of that shock to me was that they had completely ignored Sage's testimony. It basically said in there, she's not believable. And this was like, hit me to the core. It's like, how could that be? You know, this is not something that you ignore. I don't know, Sage, how did that make you feel?

[Sage Kimball]

That felt so degrading. I spoke the truth. To then not be believed hurts even more.

[Andrea Gunning]

Dan wanted to appeal the dismissal, but to move forward, he would have to pay $50,000. They didn't have that money. So Sage had an idea to start a GoFundMe, sharing their story and trying to fundraise for the appeal fees.

[Dan Kimball]

I had to promote this GoFundMe thing to my professional community. I'm sure I lost some respect because people just didn't maybe just didn't believe.

[Andrea Gunning]

Was embarrassing for Dan. Sage helped write the fundraiser page, telling the story of what happened to their family trust. Friends and colleagues of Dan submitted testimonies about him. But after they put up the page, Farah sent a letter threatening to sue Dan for defamation.

[Dan Kimball]

This letter was trying to silence me and trying to literally prevent me from raising money to protect myself.

[Sage Kimball]

I think initially when she sent the letter, my response was, put it in my name. Then she has to sue me, and that looks worse. And then I think we didn't even end up doing that because it's like we're telling the truth. You actually don't get to keep silencing the story. Stop. We're allowed to have our voices.

[Andrea Gunning]

In the end, they didn't raise the money they needed for the appeal.

[Dan Kimball]

I lost the appeal, not on grounds, but on procedural. And it was like we didn't pay the money. He lost the suit.

[Andrea Gunning]

There are safeguards in place in California, where Dan filed for divorce. California imposes a temporary restraining order over financial assets or while a divorce is pending. Those laws don't apply in Malaysia. Dan worries that even if he can get access to the trust again, the money may not be there anymore. And the same goes for his cherished home in Malaysia.

[Dan Kimball]

Not only did she put it up for sale in January against those orders, I found out since that there's a crypto site that sells real estate promoting the property.

[Andrea Gunning]

Today, Dan's case is trapped in a thicket of international law. It's been seven years since he discovered he was removed from the family trust. It's meant Dan spent most of his 60s locked out of his life savings. His late dad had left a safety deposit box with a few thousand dollars worth of coins and stocks that Dan was able to access.

[Dan Kimball]

It was only because of that money that I was able to depart Malaysia.

[Andrea Gunning]

He moved back to the US and found a cheap apartment to rent.

[Dan Kimball]

I just kind of scraped by until I could apply for Social Security, and then I lived basically on $1,000 a month, and I have been ever since.

[Andrea Gunning]

For those first few years back in the U.S. dan was in a dark place. He felt like he'd failed his children. He spent a lot of time reconnecting with his daughter and grieving with her. These days, Sage is no longer religious. While the decision to step away from religion has been healthy and right for her, she knows that Islam as a religion was never the problem. It was the way that Farah used religion as a tool of control to elevate herself, to demand obedience and to justify her behavior. The harm Farah caused was specific to her, not to Islam. Going to therapy has helped Sage understand those patterns in her mom's behavior. She's even brought her dad to some of her therapy sessions for them to process together.

[Dan Kimball]

One of the things that I think was extremely positive about this was that suddenly Sage and I could have a relationship that was based on truth. We'd basically said everything to each other about how we felt about each other and understanding ourselves. I mean, there were things revealed that Sage didn't know about me and me about her. I heard that Sage had a crisis In. In Bali that I was oblivious to. I was oblivious to partly because of the hiding and the keeping things from me. But I'm sad now because I wasn't there to. To recognize that and to. To see it. And, you know, I'm. Yeah, I'm sorry that I wasn't there. There was kind of a breaking of the silence and allowing us to, you know, I could be a parent again.

[Sage Kimball]

Getting to process that was really healing because that anger can then turn into forgiveness. And the relationship that we have now, he's not just my dad, but we're also really good friends.

[Andrea Gunning]

Their relationship today is incredibly strong. They live 15 minutes away from each other. They have breakfast together once a week and walk Sage's dog on the beach.

[Sage Kimball]

I think part of the healing, too, is like, just getting to have a relationship that's not about any of what we went through and having just fun and like, kind of a fresh start. He will design woodworking tables for me and we'll go build it at the woodworking studio. So we're making a dining table. Dad, I sent you the ones I like and you have to make the cad drawings. You promise.

[Dan Kimball]

I know, I know. We have to figure that out.

[Sage Kimball]

And you're so good at building and crafting and creating.

[Andrea Gunning]

Anger and resentment just aren't in their nature. Even though they experienced a life changing betrayal and a loss that they might never see resolved. Dan wants to spend the rest of his life focused on what he does have now, which is a relationship with his kids.

[Sage Kimball]

Justice is like a huge word for you that, like, you want justice and you want. And like, what does that look like? And I think the reality of where we are now is it might not look like what we wanted it to look like in our heads.

[Dan Kimball]

Yeah. It may not be just. I mean, justice doesn't have to exist. It sometimes doesn't.

[Sage Kimball]

Well, but I think it's more that it. Like the justice that we have is that we have this relationship which is more valuable than any of the money or any of the things. And she doesn't get to have that. In many ways, I still love my mom and I still have worry and concern for her. And I think, damn it, I think that, like, she's very lonely. Like, that's sad. You know, she's pushed everyone away so much that she's alone and like, what an awful. Like, underneath all of the personality stuff that goes on is someone who's deeply alone and probably, I don't know, like, it's just. I think we're pretty Cool dad. And, like, getting to have this relationship is actually more valuable than any of the money or any of the things. And maybe that is justice.

[Dan Kimball]

Now that I have my family back, literally my daughter and my two kids, that is the thing that feels just and feels right and feels like something that's been denied and is now restored.

[Andrea Gunning]

We end every weekly episode with the same question. Why do you want to share your story?

[Dan Kimball]

This is about transformation, right? How can I be better as a result of the impact of this? I could just wallow in it like I did for a long time. But if we want a better world, we should build a better world and design a better world. So I'd like to go from an understanding of this betrayal to building a blueprint for a better. A better world.

[Andrea Gunning]

As for why Sage is telling the story with her dad, all of this.

[Sage Kimball]

Is not to make her the devil, you know? Like, that's not what the goal of this is for any of us. It's more to be able to, like, share our experiences and be 100% truthful. I'm aware that she's not gonna like it. She has vilified him to so many communities. But I think getting to see him tell his story matters and getting to have him get some sort of justice matters. And I think part of that is being heard and believed. I'm sorry he had to go through what he's going through because he didn't deserve it. I hope that on the other side of this is healing for him too, because he deserves that.

[Andrea Gunning]

On the next episode of Betrayal Weekly, they had a recording that showed the hillside just calm, quiet, settled. And then right after that, it was the recording of the same exact spot.

[Pets Best Insurance Advertiser]

The same exact house burning to the ground.

[Andrea Gunning]

If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your Betrayal story, email [e-mail] that's betrayalpodmail.com or follow us on Instagram etreyalpod. You can also connect with me on Instagram andreaGunning to access our newsletter, view additional content and connect with the Betrayal community. Join our [e-mail] we're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Payment Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with Iheart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. This episode was written and produced by Olivia Hewitt and Monique Laborde with additional production from Ben Federman. Casting support from Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ally Perry and Jessica Krynczyk. Audio editing and mixing by Matt d' Alvecchio Additional audio editing by Tanner Robbins Betrayals Theme composed by Oliver Baines Music library provided by My Music and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sophie Cunningham]

This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, or OSA in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snore loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at. Don't sleep on OSA.com this information is provided by Lilly, a medicine company.

[Andrea Gunning]

Did a GLP1 help you lose weight, but now you're noticing unwanted facial changes? The weight came off, but facial volume loss and dull sagging skin are making you look older. That's where the next phase of your weight loss journey comes in. There's before weight loss, after weight loss and the after After. Help restore and refresh your facial skin and reclaim your natural looking youthful glow. To learn more, visit face after weight loss.com that's face after weight loss.com Enterprise.

[AWS AI Advertiser]

Leaders are revolutionizing their marketing operations with AWS AI. This proven technology turns resource intensive advertising processes into intelligent autonomous systems that deliver real time optimization on a global scale. Amazon's own transformation journey shows the true power of enterprise AI innovation. And now your organization can tap into the same technology that drives Amazon's advertising success. AWS AI Where Advertising Meets intelligence Discover the Amazon Ad store [e-mail] AI our-story.

[Dan Kimball]

Only one movie answers the call.

[Andrea Gunning]

Hello, it's me, SpongeBob.

[Dan Kimball]

For the biggest comedy event of the holiday season. Do you know what the best part is?

[Sophie Cunningham]

What is it?

[Dan Kimball]

Patrick?

[Andrea Gunning]

No, I'm asking.

[Dan Kimball]

The Spongebob movie rated DG Friday this.

[Sage Kimball]

Is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.