Carrie McAvoy (2:25)

Clock's ticking. You think you can stop him? I know I can. Cuz I know him better than he knows himself.

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Carrie McAvoy (2:37)

One of the other things he did in that first date that was odd is he said to me I'd been researching widows, and my thought was, oh, he saw that about my profile. He's been going out to understand my particular issues. Now, looking back, I think it means something else. But I didn't know that at the.

Andrea Gunning (3:09)

I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. Carrie McAvoy is a clinical psychologist based in Michigan.

Carrie McAvoy (3:25)

I saw clients in private practice for nearly 20 years. What was exciting about working with clients was that I could see really dramatic shifts in a relatively short time when there was a lot of motivation and effort. And to me, it felt like a sacred privilege to work with them.

Andrea Gunning (3:42)

Even though she studies human behavior for a living, she found herself caught in a web of lies and manipulation.

Carrie McAvoy (3:49)

Everyone somehow assumes that psychologists are, like, above human, superhuman. We should know. We should be excellent reads of people. Yeah, I'm good reads of people, but when it comes to myself, I'm not always so good because then my personal perceptions get involved. Anyone can fall for something like this. You just haven't met the sophisticated enough predator.

Andrea Gunning (4:09)

And when Carrie was at her most vulnerable, she met a predator who would derail her own life. Carrie grew up on a dairy farm in Michigan.

Carrie McAvoy (4:20)

I think I had an active herd of 60 cows, and we were expected to be a part of the milking process. So my three sisters and I went to work and started farming along with my dad.

Andrea Gunning (4:30)

She was the oldest of her three sisters.

Carrie McAvoy (4:32)

We were supposed to be good girls.

Andrea Gunning (4:34)

And out of the good girls, I.

Carrie McAvoy (4:37)

Was known as the best, the goodest, the one that did everything right. The teacher's favorite.

Andrea Gunning (4:42)

On the outside, they were an idyllic American farming family.

Carrie McAvoy (4:46)

But there was abuse and neglect going on in the family. There was secrets that we were keeping.

Andrea Gunning (4:53)

Carrie and her little sister were being abused by a family member.

Carrie McAvoy (4:58)

Her and I had shared a room, and the abuse was going on in the room. And either it would be she was hurt or I was hurt.

Andrea Gunning (5:05)

It was a trauma that shaped Carrie's worldview. She retreated into herself, and her safe space was school. She channeled all of her energy into becoming a straight A student. When she was 14, she read a magazine article about psychology.

Carrie McAvoy (5:20)

I thought, that's it. That's what I want to be. I want to be a psychologist. I really wanted to sort of decode a person.

Andrea Gunning (5:28)

She knew it would take years of school to earn a PhD in psychology. And that became her singular goal.

Carrie McAvoy (5:35)

So I did college in three years. I probably could have done it in two and a half years because I was moving so fast and getting credit so fast. Between my freshman and sophomore year, I worked up north at a tourist town in northern Michigan city, Mackinac Island. And that's where I met Brad.

Andrea Gunning (5:54)

She hadn't dated much before college. High school guys just didn't understand her. But Brad seemed different.

Carrie McAvoy (6:03)

He and I started talking and sure enough, we just clicked. By the end of the night, we were around a bonfire telling ghost stories. And I was really tired, so I laid my head on his knee. He put his hand on my shoulder and I felt like I came home. It was an amazing feeling.

Andrea Gunning (6:22)

After that night, they were inseparable.

Carrie McAvoy (6:26)

He was really loyal. He was the kind of guy, if he told you, I'm going to help you move, which he did do that he would tell people, even people he didn't know very well, I'm going to help you move. If he woke up that morning with a stomach flu, he would still go to help you move. So you could just count on him. He was a man of his word.

Andrea Gunning (6:43)

When she got into a PhD program in California, Brad went with her.

Carrie McAvoy (6:48)

Brad had a big belief in me. He's like a cheerleader, champion of me. If I wanted to do something, he supported that.

Andrea Gunning (6:57)

And in graduate school, she needed his support.

Carrie McAvoy (7:00)

I would literally fall into bed at night almost in tears because I'd work the whole day, get up, do it again. While you're trying to get ready for exams and have papers written and you have, of course, reading lists that are impossible to get through. It was so hard. And Brad created space for that. He never once complained about my lack of availability. He just was super supportive.

Andrea Gunning (7:24)

She earned her PhD in clinical psychology and she got her first job in the field working at a psychiatric hospital.

Carrie McAvoy (7:33)

I got to see the psychopathology class on display. What did a borderline personality look like? What did bipolar disorder? What do the different subtypes of schizophrenia look like? What does it look like when someone has a psychotic break?

Andrea Gunning (7:47)

She was getting a lot of experience, and in the meantime, she and Brad decided to start a family. Over the next few years, they had three sons. But pregnancy took a toll on her body, one that she was not expecting.

Carrie McAvoy (8:03)

I had a massive hair shed where I lost most of my hair from that pregnancy. It was a shock. So here I AM WEANING My 2 year old and my hair is falling out, which was devastating. Just Devastating. I mean, we literally evaluate women on the quality of their hair. For me to know this is not changeable. I'm not ever going to get this back. I'm going to have to face the world like this. It took me over 10 years to deal with it.

Andrea Gunning (8:30)

Even though she had wigs, the hair loss took away her self confidence and her sense of self.

Carrie McAvoy (8:36)

I became suicidal for a while. Not actively, but just like, what's the point? You know, I felt trapped by it, Struggled to go out into the public. I mean, it was bothering me enough that I had literal nightmares over being found out or having people discover this. I just felt terribly exposed.

Andrea Gunning (8:54)

But Brad wasn't bothered by it at all. He and their three boys became her refuge.

Carrie McAvoy (9:02)

We got a little old camper up on northern Michigan and sat on the lake every summer and it was fun. It was just a really, really good period of life for us. Busy, but really good.

Andrea Gunning (9:12)

Carrie built her own practice as a clinical psychologist and Brad worked as a civil engineer.

Carrie McAvoy (9:18)

The degree that we had, this partnership really shined. We agreed on how we spent money. We were making good decisions, trying to pay off debt, get rid of my student loan, those types of things. Get in a good financial position.

Andrea Gunning (9:31)

Their priority was saving for an early retirement.

Carrie McAvoy (9:34)

Our plan was once the last child's out of the home, he was going to quit working. When we were going to focus more on the last part of our lives. I thought we'd have a second honeymoon. And so that was our plan.

Andrea Gunning (9:44)

When they were both 50, they started working with an architect to design their dream home, the house they'd grow old in.

Carrie McAvoy (9:51)

And he and I spent an enormous amount of time with an architect designing this really gorgeous farm style house with even part of it with a metal roof so I could listen to the rain.

Andrea Gunning (10:04)

They were about to start construction when Brad got sick.

Carrie McAvoy (10:09)

Brad started vomiting just unexpectedly.

Andrea Gunning (10:13)

At first they didn't think much of it.

Carrie McAvoy (10:16)

He kept thinking he knew what it was. You know, he thought he had problems with milk. So he stopped drinking milk. And then he thought maybe he's gluten sensitive. So he started watching gluten.

Andrea Gunning (10:26)

But the symptoms only got worse. So they decided to see a specialist.

Carrie McAvoy (10:31)

They said that we found a tumor and I knew the news was bad. While we were waiting for the biopsy to come back.

Andrea Gunning (10:38)

It was a rare form of stomach cancer. Carrie immediately started researching, preparing a list of questions for the doctors.

Carrie McAvoy (10:47)

It was extremely pessimistic, like less than 5%. Make it five years. So this is terminal.

Andrea Gunning (10:57)

But no one had said this to them yet. So she asked the doctor directly.

Carrie McAvoy (11:03)

I remember going in and sitting across from him in the desk, and I said, tell me the truth. Did you just tell me last night that Brad was dying? And he said, yes. I collapsed and I started weeping. And then, you know, we had this really practical talk about what does that mean? I said, so if he does chemotherapy, how much time will he gain? He said, he might live 12 months. And I said, if we don't do chemotherapy, how long will he live? And he said, maybe six. So we walked out and he said, I'm not doing chemotherapy. It just doesn't make sense. I don't want to be sicker. So we then decided we're going to make the best of that time that we had left.

Andrea Gunning (11:56)

They wanted to go on one last vacation together, just the two of them. They went to Jamaica, where they hired a driver to take them to the most beautiful beaches on the island.

Carrie McAvoy (12:07)

The chauffeur took us up, up on a cliff and let us get out and walk up to the edge. And Brad stood there with me. And he said, you know you could do this, don't you? You know, you could travel, live abroad and start again.

Andrea Gunning (12:19)

He wanted her to live life to the fullest after he was gone to pursue her wildest dreams. That vacation in Jamaica would be one of their last good memories together before his cancer progressed.

Carrie McAvoy (12:33)

I stopped working and just focused on him. And he would say, the taxes are too high. They're too high. We can't afford to tax. In his stumbling way, he would say that. And it hit me. He's saying, it's taxing me too much. This is costing me too much. And then I would look at him and I'd say, if this is Mount Everest, I would carry you up to the top on my back. I can do this. I have it in me to do this. And he's like, okay, okay, okay. Then he'd quiet back down again.

Andrea Gunning (13:11)

5 1/2 months after the diagnosis, Brad died at home with Carrie by his side.

Carrie McAvoy (13:18)

A former client of mine sent me a note of a Welsh word that's heereth. I'd never heard of it before, and it stands for a home that's lost, that can never be found again. A homesickness, a home that you're looking for, that you can't find. And that's what it felt like. I cried every single day. I didn't know if I would survive the pain. My chest ached. My heart ached.

Andrea Gunning (13:49)

Her youngest son was a senior in high school. And that Christmas they were lost without Brad.

Carrie McAvoy (13:55)

I didn't know this until we lost him. He was the glue that held us together. We had so little energy that Christmas. We basically handed each other the boxes that they came in from whatever company we bought it from. We couldn't even wrap it. There's just no energy to do that.

Andrea Gunning (14:17)

Before he got sick, the couple had made smart financial decisions to protect their future.

Carrie McAvoy (14:22)

Between Brad's pension, retirement as well as the life insurance policy, I was set comfortably for the rest of my life. I would never have to work again.

Andrea Gunning (14:31)

But the money was little comfort. She would trade it all just to have Brad back.

Carrie McAvoy (14:37)

How do you find that again in your 50s? And how do you replace this life that you build? I wanted it back. That's what I wanted. I wanted a life that I had back.

Andrea Gunning (14:47)

So in her grief, Carrie made a.

Carrie McAvoy (14:50)

Snap decision and I'm ashamed of it, honestly. But I wanted out of this pain so bad. I started dating really fast, thinking that maybe I could just find someone and put that person in the slot and this would fix all of this.

Andrea Gunning (15:16)

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Andrea Gunning (17:20)

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Carrie McAvoy (18:50)

It was maybe four to five months after Brad passed away. I had my first date.

Andrea Gunning (18:55)

Her first date was with another widower, someone who would understand what she'd been through.

Carrie McAvoy (19:01)

It was a weird date because we just talked about how painful it was being widowed and how much that person had left a hole in her life. It was sweet. I appreciate meeting him, but it was just sort of like, I get your pain, but we're not really a match, but thank you for that. I went out with a few other men and then I started taking it more seriously. You know, once I got My feet underneath me and figured out what this was like.

Andrea Gunning (19:27)

It was a good distraction. Carrie threw herself into a series of.

Carrie McAvoy (19:31)

First dates and so much so that I was getting exhausted. I thought it would be simple to find somebody. I also thought it would be easier, that there'd be more compatibility with more people.

Andrea Gunning (19:43)

Brad was always her biggest supporter, not just in her career, but emotionally. And without him, her self esteem faltered.

Carrie McAvoy (19:53)

I'm not a thin woman. I'm highly educated. I actually went out with somebody from my practice for dinner and she said, you're going to have a hard time finding love again. You're too smart, you're too educated and you're too old. And I added in my head, and I'm too fat.

Andrea Gunning (20:14)

Dating again was more difficult than she anticipated. It was becoming too much.

Carrie McAvoy (20:19)

I started to become really discouraged. So I decided I needed to take a break and that I was going to close my dating apps and just stop.

Andrea Gunning (20:28)

But her dating app subscription had just renewed for another three months and she couldn't get a refund, so she took it as a sign.

Carrie McAvoy (20:37)

So it was literally within a few days of that that a handsome man's profile passed my preview.

Andrea Gunning (20:43)

His name was Cesar. In his profile picture, he's standing at the top of the Sears Tower.

Carrie McAvoy (20:49)

It felt like I was seeing a GQ shoot. He's wearing a knit shirt with slacks. It's almost like he's missing the coat slung over his shoulder. My first thought of Cesar was, he's really good looking. And he had a look on his face like, I can't wait to meet you.

Andrea Gunning (21:06)

He even listed his deal breakers right on his profile.

Carrie McAvoy (21:10)

No tattoos, no piercings besides earrings, no atheists and no pet owners. And they even wrote, after going out with a few dates and finding out there's these big discrepancies, I thought it would be more helpful if I just come out and say, these are my deal breakers. A little arrogant. But on the other hand, at least he was more upfront than those who say, I have a super fit lifestyle and want someone who values that. Which is code for I want a slim woman.

Andrea Gunning (21:38)

She was amused and attracted to his profile. But ultimately she decided, this is a.

Carrie McAvoy (21:45)

Person who's out of my league. I felt like I was a solid six next to this nine. And I just like passed on by. I didn't swipe left. I just didn't do anything with the profile. But the next day, this was one of those apps that lets you view who viewed your profile. And it said he looked. And I thought, you know, What? Why not reach out and say something? So I just said, what a nice profile. Seems like you and I had some things in common.

Andrea Gunning (22:11)

They both lived in the Midwest, a few hours apart, and both had adult children. So she asked him, would you like.

Carrie McAvoy (22:19)

To see if we have more in common? And he wrote back, and he said, yeah, that would be nice. That's how our connection started.

Andrea Gunning (22:28)

They started talking every day.

Carrie McAvoy (22:31)

After a few weeks, it's going great, and it's sweet. He and I both agreed it was time to meet. We decide that we're going to go out to Lake Michigan for the day and just kind of enjoy the beach. I'll pack a picnic for the two of us.

Andrea Gunning (22:46)

That Sunday, they met in person for the first time. He looked just like his photos. Handsome, kind eyes, huge smile. She was surprised by his enthusiasm.

Carrie McAvoy (22:57)

He's a very loud person, very charismatic, dynamic person. The introvert in me was like, that's a lot. I felt overwhelmed. My first inclination was like, ooh, wow. I mean, he's gesturing and his voice is booming. Brad, by the way, was extremely quiet. Our first date, I had to say, if you don't start talking, this relationship's gonna go nowhere. So picture the differences between that.

Andrea Gunning (23:21)

He was a gentleman. He wanted to unload all the picnic supplies she brought.

Carrie McAvoy (23:26)

He swings something away from me to not let me help. No, no, it's your turn to be taken care of. It's your turn. Okay. So I walk down to the edge of the water with him. We find a spot and we sit there and we just start to talk.

Andrea Gunning (23:41)

And one of the first things he wanted to talk about was what it was like to be a widow.

Carrie McAvoy (23:48)

He said, I'd been researching widows, and my thought was, oh, this is something I would do. I would research widows to understand my partner. I thought, oh, he saw that about my profile. He's been going out to understand my.

Andrea Gunning (24:02)

Particular issues, just like his dating profile suggested. He was direct. He didn't want to waste their time. So he said there were a few things she should know right up front.

Carrie McAvoy (24:14)

I need to let you know that I've been married more than once, and I want to do this differently. I want a forever relationship.

Andrea Gunning (24:20)

They talked about how and why his earlier marriages failed. His explanations weren't very in depth, but they all seemed reasonable enough.

Carrie McAvoy (24:29)

And then he stopped, and he said, I came from a really rough home. And he began to describe some of the dynamics that was happening in the house.

Andrea Gunning (24:40)

He began divulging dark details about his childhood stories of family secrets and abuse.

Carrie McAvoy (24:46)

And I'm thinking, this is a first date. I wouldn't get into this with another person. This is kind of uncomfortable history. And I end up thinking, so how much of my history should I be saying? Because he's exposed so much of himself, Will he think I'm being secretive if I don't share that back?

Andrea Gunning (25:06)

So instead, she turned to the picnic she packed. And to her surprise, I forgot all.

Carrie McAvoy (25:12)

The cold items in the refrigerator. So here I have this picnic. No meat, no tomatoes. Just has bread, lettuce, chips and fruit. You know, everything else is missing.

Andrea Gunning (25:24)

So much for their picnic lunch.

Carrie McAvoy (25:27)

Because I was feeling one of those moments like, oh, no, I blew this date. And he's like, no, no, this is no big deal. And then he suggested at the end, let's go out to eat and see a movie, because we were starving by that point.

Andrea Gunning (25:40)

She liked that he was flexible. He was going with the flow. After dinner and a movie, he handed her a gift. It was a dozen wild rose blossoms without stems.

Carrie McAvoy (25:50)

He said, now you can take them home and dry them and create some potpourri. So we have a memory of our first date together. So it was just this really romantic, over the top sort of experience. That was fabulous.

Andrea Gunning (26:04)

And with that, he kissed me on.

Carrie McAvoy (26:06)

The cheek and said, you know, I hope you sleep well. It was so nice to meet you, and then left.

Andrea Gunning (26:10)

They immediately started making plans for another date.

Carrie McAvoy (26:13)

He was really good at planning things. He took me to Mall America, went through the aquarium. We did, like, a little amusement park ride. And he took me to one of his favorite restaurants. So every weekend felt planned. Another weekend. He took me to this national park, the waterfalls, to show me one of his favorite places. And it just was romantic.

Andrea Gunning (26:36)

As the dates went on, it was clear there was an elephant in the room. The fact that Carrie didn't work.

Carrie McAvoy (26:42)

He started like, do you have, like, financial issues? Are you in trouble? Do you need a loan? Are you all right? I said, no, no, I'm okay. Actually, the opposite is true. I don't need to work. I came into a lot of money when Brad died.

Andrea Gunning (27:00)

And then without thinking, she said the number.

Carrie McAvoy (27:03)

And the minute I did that, I had this deep shame flood over me. This, like, you've made a really grave error here. You've divulged something super private. Now you'll never know why this person's in a relationship with you. Is it for the money or is it for you?

Andrea Gunning (27:21)

She watched him to see if he'd change, if he'd suddenly become overly affectionate or expect her to start paying for more and he didn't. He stayed the same easygoing guy, but on some level, she knew she needed to be more cautious. Little things started worrying her.

Carrie McAvoy (27:39)

He wasn't a big caller, so we weren't having constant phone calls. They were rare, and we might have a fantastic phone call, but then I might not hear from him again. I just felt he was hard to reach. Even if I texted him, he wasn't really quick to get back to me.

Andrea Gunning (27:54)

They lived a few hours apart, so when she couldn't reach him for a couple days, her mind would race.

Carrie McAvoy (28:00)

It was bothering me so bad that I reached out to a private investigator that I'd hired before or a professional PI. I contacted him and said, I'm dating someone, but I have a question. Is he really divorced?

Andrea Gunning (28:14)

The PI ran a background check and he found that Cesar was single, living alone. The records also pulled up an old DUI and a string of short lived jobs. Other than that, nothing particularly alarming.

Carrie McAvoy (28:27)

So I'm seeing him shortly after that and my big conundrum is, do I tell him I did this? Cause I just don't like secrets. I just hate them. I just feel like they fester and ruin relationships for you to have something that you know on somebody else. And so I said to him, I've done a background check on you and I'll never forget. He got really still, like frozen. And I thought, oh no, this is going to go really bad. And he said, so what did you learn? And I started listing, you've had a lot of jobs, you've moved quite a bit, and you have a dui. And he said, yeah, I did have a dui and this is what happened. And yeah, I have made some job changes in trying to find the right job, but I could tell the tension. You could cut it with a knife. It was so tense. And then he called me over to sit beside me and he started saying, next time you have these types of doubts, come to me first. I started crying and he hugged me and he said, it's going to be okay, but I want you to come to me first.

Andrea Gunning (29:25)

She was immediately ashamed that she'd gone behind his back.

Carrie McAvoy (29:29)

We got through it and I really thought that was sweet and that I was shocked that he wasn't more angry.

Andrea Gunning (29:35)

A few weeks later, he asked her to go steady.

Carrie McAvoy (29:39)

That was his word. He asked me in September, can we go study? And I said, yeah, I thought that was really sweet and kind of reminiscent of the past.

Andrea Gunning (29:47)

So they both deleted their online dating profiles and started Seeing each other exclusively, he pushed her to try new things.

Carrie McAvoy (29:54)

He took me salsa dancing, actually taught me how to salsa dance. And there was a childishness to him, like a playfulness. His eyes would sparkle and he'd be so excited when we would do the salsa dancing. As I'm trying to struggle with the steps at this big restaurant with everybody learning and they're all twirling around us. And he just made me feel like I was the most beautiful woman in the world.

Andrea Gunning (30:17)

One weekend she'd travel to him, and the next he'd travel to her.

Carrie McAvoy (30:22)

And it started to feel like life in between these dates were really dull and flat, like I was surviving. And then when I was with Cesar, it felt like life became colorful and just really rich.

Andrea Gunning (30:35)

Carrie started daydreaming about starting fresh and moving somewhere closer to caesar. But her 20 year old son was still living at home.

Carrie McAvoy (30:43)

I called my middle son, who had been living with me, and I said, you know, I'm thinking of moving. What do you think if we were to move, you and I were to move together? And he said, mom, I'm really depressed. I'm not doing well. It sounds great. Let's move.

Andrea Gunning (30:58)

She rented out her place and they made the move.

Carrie McAvoy (31:01)

Cesar had had this policy, you don't get to see the kids until we're engaged.

Andrea Gunning (31:06)

But once she moved closer, they decided to break that rule. Their first week in town, Cesar took her and her son out to dinner.

Carrie McAvoy (31:14)

And then Cesar just became part of our life. You know, he would come over after work and hang out with the two of us. Got to know the two of us, and it felt good. It felt like a new normal. Cesar would even invite me up for lunch in the middle of his day. Brad would never have done that, Which I even thought, wow, he's stopping his day. And then he comes over at night, hangs out and watch TV till he falls asleep. And then he heads home. It just really felt great.

Andrea Gunning (31:40)

Cesar grew up in Mexico and shared his culture with Cary.

Carrie McAvoy (31:44)

Teaching me how to buy tortillas, teaching me even what a carnita is and how much fat do you want to have in it. And then introducing chicharrones that I've never had before. Just having this whole new side of things being introduced. It was so, so exciting.

Andrea Gunning (31:58)

Cesar Carey and her son started a tradition of Sunday dinners.

Carrie McAvoy (32:03)

He would take me out to a little Mexican grocery store, buy carnitas, buy the tortillas. He would make all the prep, and then we'd have this little buffet of carnitas together. We would laugh and the three of us would watch movies. And one of the most tender scenes, the three of us were on the couch in the basement. In fact, Cesar made sure I noticed this. My son was leaning up against him and he looked over at me. I just felt like we're family. See, we're a family. Even my own son loves him.

Andrea Gunning (32:48)

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Andrea Gunning (34:53)

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Carrie McAvoy (36:15)

So we plan a trip over the middle of February to go out to California and his favorite movie is the Godfather and we found out the Coppolas have a winery out there. So we make this reservation that we're going to have a dinner at their winery and I can tell that he's decided it's going to be something extra special.

Andrea Gunning (36:33)

On the scenic drive to the winery, Cesar seemed almost nervous.

Carrie McAvoy (36:37)

Driving up this long dirt road with the trees beside it and you come up, it's dusk and the lights are on the trees and it's just beautiful. And then we're out on the back deck looking up at the moon and next thing I know I turn around and he's on one knee with an engagement ring held out. He said, will you marry me?

Andrea Gunning (36:59)

She said yes. As she looked closer at the ring, she noticed something was off about it.

Carrie McAvoy (37:07)

And it was really kind of odd that the ring seemed cheap. And I feel really even bad saying this but like it's like really cheap. Like I can tell that it's not real metal. It actually started tarnishing my finger it with green. It was cheap. And I came out of the bathroom and he happened to be standing there. He bent low and he goes, I know it's not much, I just didn't have much to spend. I didn't want to hold that up and asking you to Marry me, but I will buy you a much better one in a few years.

Andrea Gunning (37:33)

Ultimately, she didn't really care how much the ring cost. She wanted a partnership like the one she had with Brad. And this time around, she wanted to do it differently. With her kids grown, she could go on adventures, live life to the fullest.

Carrie McAvoy (37:51)

I mean, I had this dream that Brad sort of painted for me in Jamaica.

Andrea Gunning (37:55)

That's when she got an idea. Cesar was a Mexican citizen, so marrying him meant she could apply to be a permanent resident of Mexico if they moved there.

Carrie McAvoy (38:07)

A really great way to make income last a really long time is to live in a less expensive place. And I thought I'd already been a landlord. Maybe I can do something similar.

Andrea Gunning (38:18)

So she approached him with a business plan.

Carrie McAvoy (38:22)

I said to him, have you ever thought about moving back to Mexico? What about vacation rentals? Why don't we do that? And I remember Cesar got super silent, like deathly silent. And he paused for a long second, and then he said, are you serious? You're not making a joke here, are you? I said, no, I'm very serious. That would be a dream of mine. I would love to do that.

Andrea Gunning (38:51)

They started with a trip to one of Mexico's most popular tourist destinations.

Carrie McAvoy (38:56)

We visit outside of Merida, and then we go to Playa. And when we fly into Cancun and drive into Playa, he and I looked at each other and thought, this is it. This is where we want to build.

Andrea Gunning (39:05)

This company the entire trip. They did research for their new vacation rental business.

Carrie McAvoy (39:10)

United States of citizens can't own property near the shore. The only way that you can do that is either you buy a lifelong lease, as a word for it, fido comiso, or you start a Mexican corporation. It had to be two owners and one had to be a citizen of Mexico. So we agreed that we would do that and that we open this and run this rental business together.

Andrea Gunning (39:32)

So Cesar helped incorporate the business and Carrie started making offers on rental properties.

Carrie McAvoy (39:38)

We find one property we really fell in love with, we made an offer on it, and it just starts to feel like it's falling into place. We visit another property, we make a second offer, and then I even find one more that I want. So we have three houses that we're going to purchase, and then we're going to start running them. And my thought was, this is going to be enough income that it'll become self sustaining.

Andrea Gunning (40:00)

Carrie supplied all the capital, but she wanted the business to be a real partnership.

Carrie McAvoy (40:05)

Here I am starting this new relationship. Used to A partnership with Brad. Used to having everything, work really great, used to being a team. I didn't want to start out with saying, I'm 99% owner, you're 1%. It just felt mean. Like, how do you start a marriage on that foot? Like, I want to share my life with you, but you don't get to own this company because I'm contributing to the company and you're not. So I made him 50. 50 owner.

Andrea Gunning (40:29)

She felt comfortable with this decision, especially because Cesar encouraged her to get a prenup.

Carrie McAvoy (40:37)

He's saying, you know, I would really feel more comfortable while we're getting married that you go speak to an attorney and get a prenuptial agreement. I'm thinking, wow, that's really. Wow. Okay. So that in my mind said, you're invested in the relationship. You're not so invested in the money. You're invested in the relationship because you want me to protect myself.

Andrea Gunning (40:55)

So she made an appointment with an attorney.

Carrie McAvoy (40:59)

The guy sits down with me and he explains prenuptials, how they work. This corporation in Mexico is not governed by US Law. It's governed by Mexico. It says that in the corporate paperwork, all US Law. It has no power in the country of Mexico. So I'm going to make a prenup. On what? This seemed to me like a useless measure.

Andrea Gunning (41:24)

She decided against a prenup.

Carrie McAvoy (41:27)

But for me to have him think of saying that really made me feel like, oh, look, you know, just like on that picnic when we had on that first date, he carried all the stuff. He's thinking of me. He cares about me. This is so sweet.

Andrea Gunning (41:39)

After all, she believed Cesar had the best intentions. And there was so much to look forward to. The rental property company was off and.

Carrie McAvoy (41:49)

Running, so the value of Brad's life insurance has now been spent on properties.

Andrea Gunning (41:55)

She really believed in what they were building together. The last step was getting married so she could officially become a permanent resident of Mexico. After a trip to the US to tie up loose ends and finalize the sale of her home, Kerry returned to Mexico. She and Cesar planned to get married the following week.

Carrie McAvoy (42:15)

I come back from that trip and Cesar picks me up. He's holding flowers and he's rocking back and forth. And he's white, he's pale, he's jittery. My first question was, did somebody die? That's what it looks like. He's going to tell me very, very bad news. And he starts to cry. And he says, it just hit me because we're going to get married five days that I'm still married and I said what?

Andrea Gunning (42:41)

On the next episode of Betrayal.

Carrie McAvoy (42:44)

I used to think that you were a good guy who sometimes wore a monster mask, but what I realized that you're actually a monster who sometimes wears a good guy mask. And he whispers, I'm glad you know.

Andrea Gunning (43:07)

If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team or want to tell us your Betrayal story, email us@betrayalpodmail.com that's betrayal P O-mail.com we're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Face in hosted and produced by Me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Federman. Associate producers are Kristen Melchiori and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt D'Alvecchio. Additional editing support from Nico Aruka and Tanner Robbins. Betrayal's Theme composed by Oliver Baines Music Library provided by MIB Music and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Unknown Advertiser (44:23)

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Carrie McAvoy (45:24)

You can call me Detective Alex Cross.

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Carrie McAvoy (45:29)

We have to catch this serious real killer. I don't kill for fun and created by Ben Watkins. Ms. Kelly thinks he's the smartest guy in the room.

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Carrie McAvoy (45:41)

May never have another chance.

Andrea Gunning (45:42)

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Carrie McAvoy (45:43)

You think you can stop him? I know I can. Because I know him better than he knows himself.

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Carrie McAvoy (45:53)

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Andrea Gunning (45:57)

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Carrie McAvoy (45:59)

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Andrea Gunning (46:12)

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Carrie McAvoy (46:14)

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Carrie McAvoy (46:18)

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