EP 18 - Sara

Summary

Episode Summary: Betrayal: Weekly - EP 18 "Sara"

Host: Andrea Gunning
Episode Title: Sara
Podcast: Betrayal: Weekly
Produced by: iHeartPodcasts and Glass Podcasts

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Introduction

In Episode 18 of Betrayal: Weekly, host Andrea Gunning delves into the harrowing story of Sarah, a resilient organic farmer from Vermont, whose life was upended by deceit within a seemingly supportive online parenting community. This episode explores themes of trust, manipulation, and personal recovery, highlighting how betrayal can infiltrate even the most nurturing environments.

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Sarah's Early Life and Involvement with a Cult

Sarah's journey begins in her childhood in the Northeast, where she faced familial struggles and her father's battle with addiction. At age ten, her family became entangled in a fundamentalist Christian movement called Quiverful, which emphasizes large families and strict gender roles.

Sarah [03:42]: "Less than a year later, we were completely embroiled in a cult."

As Sarah grew older, the oppressive environment of the cult stifled her natural curiosity and rebellious spirit, leading to strained family relationships and harsh disciplinary measures.

Sarah [08:21]: "I'm also a kid, and no matter how much indoctrination there was, I just could not bring myself to do that."

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Escape and New Beginnings

At fourteen, punishments within the cult led Sarah to seek refuge outside her home, resulting in her moving in with a supportive foster family. This shift allowed her to rediscover her identity, embrace Judaism, and pursue her passion for body piercing.

Sarah [10:17]: "She wanted me to have good role models and got me involved in the community and a Jewish community."

Despite these positive changes, Sarah struggled with her education due to years of schooling absence, eventually leaving her foster family's home and facing homelessness for a year. Her perseverance led her to stable employment and a budding relationship with Paul, whom she later discovered she was pregnant with during the COVID-19 lockdown.

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Joining the Parenting Community and Meeting Becky

Seeking support for her impending motherhood, Sarah joined a large Facebook group focused on gentle parenting. It was here that she met Becky, an admin of the group, who presented herself as a devoted Jewish parent overcoming significant personal tragedies.

Sarah [22:16]: "She was like she is a catfish. She's been stealing people's pictures of their children, pretending that they're her kids and giving them these crazy backstories."

Becky's seemingly authentic presence and shared experiences with Sarah created a strong bond, or so Sarah believed. Becky became a role model, sharing her experiences of overcoming adversity, including the tragic loss of her toddler and her oldest child being a victim of an anti-gay hate crime.

Sarah [23:44]: "She had just a really difficult upbringing. I mean, the odds were completely stacked against her."

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Unraveling the Deception

Over three years, Sarah increasingly relied on Becky's guidance, especially during her postpartum struggles. However, inconsistencies in Becky's stories and unresponsiveness when Sarah sought deeper connections began to sow doubts.

Sarah [28:01]: "I'm being weird."

The truth shattered when Sarah discovered that Becky had fabricated her entire family, using stolen images and fictitious backstories. This revelation not only exposed Becky's deceit but also left the entire parenting community grappling with the betrayal.

Sarah [44:35]: "She was talking to children, pretending to be children."

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Impact on Sarah and the Community

Becky's manipulation extended beyond personal relationships, undermining the trust within the parenting group. Sarah and other members faced emotional turmoil, struggling to reconcile their grief and trust in the community.

Sarah [49:58]: "This whole experience just really made me doubt my abilities as a parent and myself as a person."

The community's discovery of Becky's fraud led to a collective healing process, with members banding together to support one another and rebuild trust.

Sarah [52:37]: "A lot of us have the way that we were able to show up for each other."

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Sarah's Recovery and New Beginnings

Despite the deep wounds inflicted by Becky's betrayal, Sarah found strength through her faith and the supportive community she rebuilt. As she prepares to welcome her second child, Sarah reflects on her journey of self-discovery and empowerment.

Sarah [55:59]: "I'm feeling really confident and excited in my abilities, in Paul's abilities, and in my son's abilities to be a big brother."

Sarah's story serves as a testament to resilience, illustrating how betrayal can lead to profound personal growth and stronger community bonds.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Sarah [00:02:08]: "This whole experience really made me doubt my abilities as a parent and myself as a person."

• Sarah [06:00]: "I just turned 11 at this time, so this was an improvement. It seemed like when people said, like, this is the right path, it seemed believable to me."

• Sarah [28:01]: "I'm being weird."

• Sarah [43:02]: "She was talking to children, pretending to be children."

• Sarah [49:58]: "This whole experience just really made me doubt my abilities as a parent and myself as a person."

• Sarah [55:59]: "I'm feeling really confident and excited in my abilities, in Paul's abilities, and in my son's abilities to be a big brother."

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Conclusion

Episode 18 of Betrayal: Weekly masterfully intertwines Sarah's personal narrative with broader themes of trust and deception. Through detailed storytelling and poignant quotes, the episode underscores the profound impact of betrayal and the strength required to overcome it. Sarah's journey from manipulation to empowerment offers listeners both a cautionary tale and a beacon of hope.

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Join Us Next Week:
Stay tuned for the next episode of Betrayal: Weekly, where we continue to explore real-life stories of broken trust and the enduring spirit of those who overcome betrayal.

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Connect with Betrayal: Weekly:

• Email: [e-mail]
• Subscribe: Available on Apple Podcasts, iHeartRadio, and all major podcast platforms.

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Transcript

[Aldous Hodge]

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[Andrea Gunning]

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[Sarah]

This whole experience really made me doubt my abilities as a parent and myself as a person. Basically every aspect of my identity that I had spent so long trying to find. It like shook everything.

[Andrea Gunning]

I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. This is the story of an entire community, one group of parents who experienced a shocking deception and overcame it. Together, we'll hear more from the larger community later. But for the majority of this episode, we're going to tell it through one person's perspective. We'll call her Sarah. Sarah is living her best life as an organic farmer in Vermont. She exudes cool. She's covered in tattoos and rocks, A shaved head.

[Sarah]

I never have to have a bad hair day. I just don't ever have hair.

[Andrea Gunning]

She grew up in the northeast as the oldest child in her family. When she was little, her parents struggled to make ends meet, and her father battled addiction. Sarah remembers a time when her parents were skeptical about organized religion. Even the Christian undertones in cartoons like VeggieTales made her parents uncomfortable.

[Sarah]

I remember a conversation where my parents were like going back and forth and they were like, well, it's just vegetables. It seems fine, even though there's the religious stuff. My parents were pretty anti religion, but.

[Andrea Gunning]

When Sarah was around 10, her parents religious beliefs began to shift.

[Sarah]

My dad kind of got warmed up to it when he was in Alcoholics Anonymous. And then less than a year later, we were completely embroiled in a cult.

[Andrea Gunning]

It started when her mom was recruited to join a local church.

[Sarah]

They were really nice to us. They were really supportive of my mom. She made friends and she struggles a lot to make friends, and so she felt very at home there. And my dad kind of hit it off with a couple of the other dads and it seemed like a really good community. Before we knew it, we were involved in Quiverful.

[Andrea Gunning]

Quiverful is a fundamentalist Christian movement focused on having and raising as many children as possible. Her parents seemed happy in their new church, and they became more involved in Sarah's life than ever.

[Sarah]

I just turned 11 at this time, so this was an improvement. It seemed like when people said, like, this is the right path, it seemed believable to me.

[Andrea Gunning]

This church became her new normal.

[Sarah]

The services were a little bit intense. Lots of like crying and speaking in tongues and stuff like that. But I was like, okay, well, sometimes they had a potluck after.

[Andrea Gunning]

For an 11 year old, the potluck desserts, like Jell O were enticing.

[Sarah]

Then it started kind of moving beyond the jello and we all got baptized. And then there was like purity stuff, a lot of purity stuff. So I pledged my virginity to the church and my dad, and it was almost like a wedding. These pretty white dresses and go up to an altar and it literally looks like a mass wedding, but it's like little girls all marrying their dad. But I was like 11, so I was like, oh, my God, I get to dress fancy and have a little present and more jello. So yay.

[Andrea Gunning]

The standards around purity were very high.

[Sarah]

It was normal for people in our community to save their first kiss for marriage.

[Andrea Gunning]

Sarah's naturally curious, and that was tough to navigate in this community.

[Sarah]

Between me not having been raised in this environment and having, like, a rebellious spirit is what I always got told, just mostly just because I asked a lot of questions, it really put a bad light on our family.

[Andrea Gunning]

Eventually she fell in line.

[Sarah]

It's definitely been, like, kind of hammered in there to trust authority completely. Like, there's a reason they're in this position. I was totally, 100% in. Like, I believed it fully.

[Andrea Gunning]

Her little sister, who was nine, saw, struggled, and was deemed a bad kid by church standards.

[Sarah]

She got kind of stuck with the bad kids. Everyone said that they were always pulling shenanigans and they were too loud, which they were just normal kids. Looking back, they were just like 9 year olds.

[Andrea Gunning]

Some families in their church had as many as 20 children. For the church, big families served a higher purpose.

[Sarah]

You are basically trying to birth an army for the end times, which you're told could come at any time. So it already feels too late because it takes, like, you know, a couple years for kids to be able to grow up. So they're like, you gotta have babies now.

[Andrea Gunning]

Even though they already had six kids, Sarah's mom felt pressure to grow their family, but she was struggling to have more.

[Sarah]

She was getting blamed for her issues with not being able to have, like, a ton of kids. It seemed like her fault for having a rebellious and, like, worldly family.

[Andrea Gunning]

The church believed that God blessed you with as many kids as you could handle. So if a family was struggling to have more children, it was because their existing kids were disobedient. In order to get closer to God, Sarah's mom tried to control her kids, and she did it by following the church teaching.

[Sarah]

You start corporal punishment at birth. If they bite you while they're nursing, you pull their hair. If they don't have hair, you use the switch.

[Andrea Gunning]

Sarah was only 12 when her mom asked her to use a switch on her newborn sister.

[Sarah]

I'm also a kid, and no matter how much indoctrination there was, I just could not bring myself to do that. It felt like some Stanford prison experiment kind of thing.

[Andrea Gunning]

This was a defining moment for Sarah.

[Sarah]

At that point, I started questioning, is it because I'm not faithful enough? Is it because I shouldn't be a mother? Or is this just wrong? And that was the first time I had considered it might be wrong.

[Andrea Gunning]

She started questioning the church, specifically how they parented and the strictly enforced gender roles.

[Sarah]

One of the weird things about Quiverful is, like, boys will be boys until they're 45, but girls are future mothers in training from day one.

[Andrea Gunning]

When Sarah was 14, she started going to public school. This was actually a form of punishment. But there she met a new friend who opened her eyes to another way of living. And her friend's mom was worried about Sarah's home life.

[Sarah]

They were so concerned, and rightfully so. She basically told me to come and live with them, and she would lie to my mom about where I was if she asked. My mom was not that invested. To be honest. She didn't really come look in.

[Andrea Gunning]

Soon, Sarah stopped coming home altogether.

[Sarah]

And so I ended up moving in with this family, and they really did everything in their power to help me out. And so I do refer to her as my foster mom, even though I was never officially in the foster care system.

[Andrea Gunning]

She adored her new foster family, especially her foster mom.

[Sarah]

She wanted me to have, like, good role models and got me involved in the community and a Jewish community. She was never pushy about anything, and they were really good role models. Jewish people don't proselytize, which I found very strange. I was like, are they trying to convert me? And she's like, they don't want you to convert. That's not a thing. They just want to give you some food. And I was like, oh, cool.

[Andrea Gunning]

Through her foster family, she was welcomed into the Jewish faith. They nurtured her natural curiosity.

[Sarah]

That was what was most appealing to me. I had a million questions, and they were excited to answer the questions with more questions. There was never, like, a, shut up. Don't ask that. It was like, so this is three different opinions that most people have, and this is my opinion. What do you think?

[Andrea Gunning]

Sarah was smart and inquisitive about the world, but she'd fallen behind in school.

[Sarah]

My parents had taken me out of school in fourth grade. And so from fourth grade to the end of sophomore year, I had no education.

[Andrea Gunning]

On her 18th birthday, Sarah dropped out. After that, she decided to leave her foster family's home too.

[Sarah]

I didn't want to burden this family, so I left them as well. I hadn't been taught how to, like, live with normal people. It was just, like, time for me to go. But they were instrumental in my running away from the cult. And so I left, and I went to the nearest city, and I was homeless for a year. At first, I was on the street. And then I was in a shelter for the first few months. It was really rough. And then I got a job at a tattoo studio, and I became a body piercer there through an apprenticeship. It was, like, my passion. It was so much fun.

[Andrea Gunning]

She didn't leave everything from her old life behind. She still wanted faith in her life. Somehow being exposed to Judaism in her foster family inspired Sarah to officially convert.

[Sarah]

It gave me a sense of community and a sense of stability that I think I was missing. And, like, this very kind group of people who want to support you, and you don't owe them anything for that. That's really nice for me, it's comforting. Like, I don't, like, go to bed wondering if I'm gonna wake up. Still part of my only community.

[Andrea Gunning]

She also decided to start dating. That's when she met Paul. She was swiping on Tinder, and his profile made her laugh.

[Sarah]

He had, like, mostly pictures of frogs, but they were, like, from Google with, like, the watermark. I was like, that's really strange. And so I was curious and started talking to him, and he was, like, hilarious.

[Andrea Gunning]

For their first date, he brought her a surprise.

[Sarah]

He brought me a Stuart Little 2 poster as a gift. I was like, what a weird guy.

[Andrea Gunning]

They dated casually for about six months, going on dates when they both had time and money to spare.

[Sarah]

That was until the day of COVID lockdown in 2020. I found out I was pregnant.

[Andrea Gunning]

As soon as she saw the pregnancy test, she knew she would keep the baby.

[Sarah]

I have terrible PCOs, so I did not think I was able to get pregnant, which is part of why I wanted to keep the pregnancy so bad.

[Andrea Gunning]

She was prepared to go it alone, with or without Paul. After she took a few minutes to process the news, she called him.

[Sarah]

Both of us were just kind of crying and just, like, trying to figure out, like, what to say to the other person. And so I told him, like, I want to be a mom, like, really bad. And I was like, you don't have to have anything to do with this. But he really wanted to be, like, a present and good dad.

[Andrea Gunning]

After that day, Sarah moved in with him. On some level, she felt prepared for parenthood. After all, she'd been taking care of young children her whole life.

[Sarah]

I felt very comfortable with my ability to keep babies alive. Like, I've done this a million times. I know exactly what I'm doing.

[Andrea Gunning]

But the environment she'd grown up in wasn't emotionally healthy or nurturing. And she knew one thing for she wasn't going to raise her baby the way she was raised, she would have to find another way. She would need resources.

[Sarah]

Being an emotionally present and caring parent who's raising a person. I was like, oh my God, I have no idea what I'm doing. Like, I need help. Now.

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[Andrea Gunning]

The clock's ticking.

[Aldous Hodge]

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[Andrea Gunning]

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[Sarah]

I like, dated a couple people before, but I had not had a partner.

[Andrea Gunning]

She would learn the meaning of true partnership during pregnancy.

[Sarah]

I did have a super high risk pregnancy and I had to be on bed rest from like week 12. It was awful. It was terrible. I had to quit my job. He had to support me and take care of me, like physically put me in the shower and help me shower. And he was amazing. He bought me a Kindle, loaded it up with like every book ever, and he would like put my socks on me so my feet didn't get cold so I didn't have to like kick the blanket around to try to get it back over me. And he would do his work in the bedroom whenever possible so that I just had like a person nearby. He just took amazing care of me.

[Andrea Gunning]

And she learned by his example.

[Sarah]

So that really turned things for me. I was like, okay. A successful relationship between friends, between partners, between parents and children is like a huge mutual effort to make the other person feel cared for.

[Andrea Gunning]

She reached out to her friends who had young kids, and she started by calling two friends whose parenting styles she admired.

[Sarah]

They had both suggested that I join some gentle parenting groups on Facebook.

[Andrea Gunning]

Being bedridden for her entire pregnancy meant she had a lot of time on her hands. She browsed group after group until she found one that really resonated. And it was a huge community.

[Sarah]

I think at the height there was like a couple hundred thousand. And everybody in there, it seemed, was like, focused on the same goal that I was. We're like raising a functional, confident, compassionate person. And I was like, okay, this seems like a really good place for me to be.

[Andrea Gunning]

She started spending hours every day in the group Reading every post and asking questions of her own.

[Sarah]

I was trying to absorb every single molecule of gentle, kind parenting advice that I could fit in my brain. In the course of nine months, Sarah.

[Andrea Gunning]

Made real friends through the group. And she noticed a pattern.

[Sarah]

Almost everyone in the group was trying to break some kind of cycle of, like, abuse or neglect. And a lot of people were like, my childhood was hellish and I am never letting that happen. So it just seemed like a really supportive community for people who were trying to do better for their kids.

[Andrea Gunning]

For Sarah, this was more than just a Facebook group. It was personal. She was estranged from her family, so this group became a real community, supporting her through pregnancy and celebrating with her.

[Sarah]

With groups based around cycle breaking, some people don't have a family to celebrate with them. And so we would be that family. A person you don't even know would be like, oh, my gosh, after four years of trying, we're finally pregnant and we got our first ultrasound and it's twins. And we would all be like, oh, my God. Genuinely, I was so excited for these people.

[Andrea Gunning]

There was a hierarchy in the group. 4 admins approved every post and enforced the community guidelines.

[Sarah]

So the admins in the group, they were like, moderating approving posts, but they were also kind of like leaders in the group because, you know, people come there with crisis level stuff. So if you're really struggling with something, they're the first people to see the post because they approve it and they really go out of their way to make sure that people are safe.

[Andrea Gunning]

Sarah had a lot in common with one of the admins who we'll call Becky.

[Sarah]

She had posted a lot about being a Jewish parent.

[Andrea Gunning]

Becky was a huge presence in the group.

[Sarah]

She was like an admin and a super frequent poster. People were very invested in her life. People knew her kid by first name and, like, people had her birth announcements on their fridge.

[Andrea Gunning]

Becky was a successful attorney who'd overcome a great deal of adversity.

[Sarah]

She had just a really difficult upbringing. I mean, the odds were completely stacked against her. She was a teen mom. She had her first baby so young. She had also suffered child loss, which was unimaginable to me. Just like thinking about, you know, how much I loved my son before I had even met him. I think that's every parent's worst fear.

[Andrea Gunning]

Becky's toddler had passed away unexpectedly. She was a resource and a guiding light for other parents in the group who experienced the same tragedy. Becky managed this grief while raising six other kids. But the tragedy didn't end There, her oldest child had recently been the victim of an anti gay hate crime.

[Sarah]

The sympathy and, like, hurt that I felt for her, knowing that her kid had been through this awful.

[Andrea Gunning]

Becky posted all the details of the hate crime in the group.

[Sarah]

There were hundreds of comments being like, we love you, Becky. People were just so genuinely caring for her. She was receiving gifts, some of them monetary. She was getting constant affection and attention from everyone.

[Andrea Gunning]

But despite all this hardship, Becky was thriving in her career and putting her all into raising her six children. She was a super moment.

[Sarah]

Like, she's amazing. You know, she had her kid in these cultural immersion schools and she was taking these incredible trips, like, they went to Scotland and like, she had these beautiful, enriching, individualized lives that she had built for these kids. And I was like, wow, I need to get my act together if I want to be able to parent like this. And so I think I kind of idolized her a little bit.

[Andrea Gunning]

Becky posted videos of herself giving updates on her family's life.

[Sarah]

In all the videos, she was alone. There were no kid sounds or never her husband. It was just her. I assumed that it was like her five minutes alone. She wanted to connect with other parents.

[Andrea Gunning]

Becky's husband and their oldest kids were all on Facebook too.

[Sarah]

Her whole family was, for the most part, on Facebook.

[Andrea Gunning]

Becky and her husband were always flirting with each other in the group.

[Sarah]

It was a lot. It seemed like it was in good fun, but it was uncomfortable to see publicly.

[Andrea Gunning]

When Sarah joined the group, she was finishing the process of converting to Judaism. She looked at Becky as a resource and inspiration for raising kids in the Jewish faith. But when Sarah tried to connect over this, Becky wasn't interested.

[Sarah]

I was like, why are we not friends? And she didn't even want to acknowledge it, which was very odd to me.

[Andrea Gunning]

It wasn't just that they were both Jewish. They were interested in the same things.

[Sarah]

I'm passionate about heritage language. Like, that's my thing. And she's a Jewish person who's passionate about heritage language. And she would not speak to me.

[Andrea Gunning]

About it, but Becky would post videos of herself showcasing her language learning skills.

[Sarah]

She was speaking ladino, which is like Judeo Spanish. It's sort of adjacent to Yiddish, which is one of my languages. And it really drove home to me and a lot of other people how smart she was.

[Andrea Gunning]

Sarah learned that Becky was also a convert. It's not that common. So she really wanted to bond over that shared experience.

[Sarah]

I wanted to ask questions about that, and I was like, really looking for that advice from her. And unfortunately, she just would not.

[Andrea Gunning]

And there was another reason she felt connected to Becky. They both had difficult upbringings. When Becky posted about her childhood, Sarah chimed in. She understood because she'd been through some of the same things.

[Sarah]

I jokingly sometimes refer to myself as a rescue because, like, you know, I was literally living on the street and then living in a studio. When I met my husband, I had probably, like, 20 bucks. So I was like, that happens. That's crazy. We both had our, like, Cinderella moment. And she just, like, did not. The kinship thing wasn't mutual. And I was like, okay, I'm being weird.

[Andrea Gunning]

Sarah began to worry that maybe she'd said something to offend Becky.

[Sarah]

And I was like, oh, did I, like, say something? So I was really concerned that I had really hurt her.

[Andrea Gunning]

So she tried to connect with other people in the group.

[Sarah]

I started seeking out other Jewish parents in that group, and everyone was like, you gotta talk to Becky. And I was like, okay, I'll try.

[Andrea Gunning]

Sarah would ask Becky about things like breastfeeding and keeping kosher.

[Sarah]

Every time I asked her a question, I would get an answer, but it didn't line up with anything that I had ever heard before. But I guess she would know. And so I started to sort of get back to that place where I was like, am I qualified for this?

[Andrea Gunning]

The interactions with Becky always left her feeling worse than before. She wasn't even a parent yet, but she started to doubt her ability to raise her son in the Jewish faith.

[Sarah]

I don't know anything. I was like, maybe I am further behind with conversion than I thought I was.

[Andrea Gunning]

In the winter of 2020, Sarah's son was born. She had unexpected complications and the birth didn't go as planned.

[Sarah]

I had a very traumatic birth. It was really, really bad. He was almost completely fine. But I needed a lot of help. At the very end of the birth, while my son was being put in my arms, I had a psychotic break. And I ended up going into postpartum psychosis. And I had no idea what that was.

[Andrea Gunning]

About 2% of women develop postpartum psychosis after they give birth. It can start with obsessive thoughts about the baby's well being and concerns that something is wrong. But it spirals into hallucinations and delusions. It's a condition that can be really dangerous for both the mother and the baby.

[Sarah]

I was hallucinating very vividly, but I had no idea that I was hallucinating. And so I was experiencing really intense paranoia. You know, a lot of people have, like, intrusive Thoughts, scary, violent ones. And once those thoughts start sounding like a good idea, you need to talk to someone. I was having those thoughts toward myself because I thought that if I didn't get myself out of the picture, something would happen to my baby.

[Andrea Gunning]

She was scared, and she didn't know what was going on. So she reached out to a doctor.

[Sarah]

When I sought advice from medical professionals, I was actually told it was normal, but I didn't know how to effectively communicate how serious it was. And so I was at home in full psychosis with a newborn.

[Andrea Gunning]

This lasted for two months until she hit a breaking point.

[Sarah]

I had, like, a full breakdown episode, and I was admitted to a hospital. I stayed there for a little over a week. I think time really wasn't. I'm not really sure about that. It was really hard to be away from my baby, you know, But I did feel that he was safer, and I felt safer as well.

[Andrea Gunning]

After she left the hospital, she was stable, but the experience was traumatic. So there was still some fear there.

[Sarah]

I was really afraid to hold my son or be alone with him for a long time. I loved him, but I didn't trust myself to be a good parent. I didn't even trust myself to be, like, a babysitter. I just was so afraid that I would do something terribly wrong.

[Andrea Gunning]

So she turned to her support system, the parenting group.

[Sarah]

And then as soon as I got out, I went to the group. So it was like, I don't know who else that I could possibly ask about this. And I started asking, like, has anyone had this happen before? And the person who kept popping up was Becky. And she had postpartum depression before and anxiety and ocd. She knew what she was talking about. She had been through, like, a similar situation. Not psychosis, to my knowledge, but really, really rough mental health stuff following the birth of a baby. And I was so grateful to have that resource.

[Andrea Gunning]

This was some of Becky's advice.

[Sarah]

Just, like, go to therapy. Just drink water. Just wait. And I was like, oh, okay. She would know, not me.

[Andrea Gunning]

Sarah didn't just need advice. She needed someone who'd been through this and made it out on the other side to tell her that she was going to be okay, that it wasn't her fault, and that she wasn't a bad mom. But Becky did the opposite.

[Sarah]

She was definitely implying that I wasn't cut out for this. You know, this just isn't for some people. Maybe it's not for you.

[Andrea Gunning]

Not being cut out for parenting was Sarah's worst fear at the time. She was Isolated by Covid and her postpartum recovery. So Becky's words cut deep.

[Sarah]

I mean, just validation would have gone a long way, but she really went out of her way to make it seem like anyone who was struggling was just so beneath her and that she was just, like, super mom. And so I was really questioning everything and not in a good way.

[Andrea Gunning]

This was one of the darkest times in Sarah's life. She was suicidal with a newborn. To keep herself grounded, Sarah focused on the positives she did have.

[Sarah]

At this point, we are about two months away from being officially Jewish. I'm going to the mikveh, and I'm so excited. It's, like, a huge deal.

[Andrea Gunning]

A mikveh is a spiritual ceremony, and it can be used to officially anoint someone in the Jewish faith. So Sarah's first mikveh was like a baptism.

[Sarah]

I got dunked, and it was amazing. It was so great. And I passed my little exam, and I got my certificate for me and for my son, and it was the best. You know, I can't even describe, like, how, like, symbolic and amazing it felt after my weird, quiverful baptism experience to go to a mikvah of my own volition.

[Andrea Gunning]

During the postpartum recovery, her faith was everything. She started teaching her son Yiddish and leaning into her identity as a Jewish parent.

[Sarah]

It took me, like, two or three years to be what I would consider back to myself, but my light at the end of the tunnel is that I'm the Jewish parent in my son's life, and I have to stick around, and I have to keep him in touch with his culture.

[Andrea Gunning]

Slowly, Sarah and her husband learned to parent in a way that felt right to them. The Facebook group was instrumental in helping them get there. As their son got older, Sarah began to have more questions about raising a child in an interfaith marriage.

[Sarah]

My husband is not religious at all, but we technically are an interfaith family because he's not Jewish and I am. And it's really hard to find supportive interfaith parenting spaces. And Becky was a Jewish parent in an interfaith family, and so I was like, hey, I really need your help. And she was receptive to that and gave a lot of advice that was maybe more critical than I was expecting. Every time I asked her a question, I would get an answer, but it didn't line up with anything that I had ever heard before, But I guess she would know. And so I started to sort of get back to that place where I was like, am I qualified for this?

[Andrea Gunning]

At the time Becky had made a post about how she keeps a kosher.

[Sarah]

Kitchen, she was very much positioning herself as an authority. And she made this big deal out of keeping kosher.

[Andrea Gunning]

Sarah was considering keeping kosher for the first time herself. So in the comment section, she asked a follow up question about setting up a kosher kitchen.

[Sarah]

I just had a question about separate sides of the kitchen because I haven't done it.

[Andrea Gunning]

But strangely, Becky deleted her comment from the post.

[Sarah]

It was weird. My comment got deleted very quickly when I asked the question. And so I don't even think I saw what her reply was.

[Andrea Gunning]

So finally she turned to her rabbi.

[Sarah]

I contacted him in tears, just like crisis mode. Like, I don't think I'm supposed to be doing this. I can't be a parent like this. Like, you made a mistake by letting me be Jewish. Like, I don't know what's going on. And he was the first person to ask, who is this person? Do you see them a lot? And you stop seeing them? I was like, they're just a person on Facebook. And he's like, why are you listening to them? Like, what. What is their role? What is their authority here? And I was like, dude, I don't know. Actually, I don't call my rabbi dude, but, you know, I was like, yeah, that's a good question. I had been interacting with her for almost three years, and I never realized how badly it had been affecting me until he said that pretty soon Sarah.

[Andrea Gunning]

Would get an answer to that question, one she wasn't expecting.

[Sarah]

So I was at home, and then I got added to this group chat that had like 200 messages, and it's called Therapy Sesh. And it had the name of the parenting group. I was like, late to be added. And I was like, what is happening? And then one of my friends from the group was like, I'll catch you up. Thank God, you know, thank you so much. And she tells me, we just found out. Becky, the admin in the parenting group was like, oh, I know her. Go on. She just was like, she's not real.

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[Andrea Gunning]

The clock's ticking.

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He was hitting my house. He messed with my kids. He's got to be getting close. You think you can stop him? I know I can. Cuz I know him better than he knows himself. Cross. A new original series only on Prime Video. Watch now.

[Andrea Gunning]

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[Sarah]

She was like she is a catfish. She's been stealing people's pictures of their children, pretending that they're her kids and giving them these crazy backstories. Immediately my brain went to the child that had a hate crime committed against them. What possesses a person to see a picture of a child they don't know and invent a hate crime against them? Them. This cannot be real.

[Andrea Gunning]

The community was reeling. Sarah went to the Facebook page and Becky was gone.

[Sarah]

And then I saw the announcement from one of the admins. Just like how heartbroken and shaken she was.

[Andrea Gunning]

200 of the most active group members were all in a text called Therapy Sesh, comparing their notes, trying to understand what was happening.

[Sarah]

How could she not be real? I had seen her talking to her husband like I'd seen videos of her. And things just kept coming out over and over, like all day. And for that whole day, I just completely abandoned my work and just stayed in the group chat.

[Andrea Gunning]

Becky had posted videos of herself, her real self with her real name. But nearly everything else about her was a lie. She didn't have six kids. She didn't have any. She had never been a parent at all.

[Sarah]

We found out that none of her children are real. Her children were pictures of someone else's children that she had been taking from an account that she was following her son that was talking to children of other people in the group on kids. Messenger was her and she had given him this really traumatic backstory, but he wasn't real at all. And then she had her husband that was her as well.

[Andrea Gunning]

There was no husband. Becky just made a fake account where she posed as her husband and filled out his profile using stolen pictures from the Internet.

[Sarah]

She had taken pictures from, I believe, an actor from Thailand. Her entire family was her.

[Andrea Gunning]

Some people were friends with Becky in real life and they were blindsided too.

[Sarah]

People had met her in person while she was pregnant, but she wasn't pregnant. And it was like she fooled these moms of multiple kids. Nobody could have seen this coming.

[Andrea Gunning]

Becky lied about the death of her two year old daughter to a group of parents, some of whom had actually lost kids of their own.

[Sarah]

The thing that, like, sticks with me was the amount of other parents in the group who had lost their children, like toddlers and even older or younger who were consoling her and sharing their similar struggles. Like what? Who could do this?

[Andrea Gunning]

It Was the extent of her lies that kept people from questioning her.

[Sarah]

If you say something like, did you even have the death of a child? And you're wrong, you are the worst for doubting this person, and no one who's an actual normal person would want to do that. Then there's also the practical side of it where she can just delete your comment. She can just kick you out of the group. She was an admin so she could get rid of you.

[Andrea Gunning]

The admins, the people most intimately involved in running the group, were the ones who discovered Becky's fraud, and they needed answers.

[Sarah]

When she was confronted by the admins that she was close with, she said that she can't stop. I don't understand why, but I do believe that she can't stop.

[Andrea Gunning]

After Becky's accounts were deleted, the parenting group banded together to find out more about the real Becky.

[Sarah]

When we started finding out more about her and we spoke to someone in her life who knew more about her as a real person and her background, they revealed to us that she had been doing this since high school, making up people and making up herself.

[Andrea Gunning]

There was one thing she didn't lie about. She was actually a lawyer and the kind of lawyer who protected vulnerable people.

[Sarah]

I think that's the only thing she has ever told the truth about other than her cat's name.

[Andrea Gunning]

One of the admins gathered evidence and reported Becky's actions to the bar association in her home state. But as far as the group knows, nothing has ever come of that report.

[Sarah]

It seemed like it was a joke to a lot of people because I think that there is this attitude where if something happens online or like, mainly online, it's not real. And it was very real to a lot of us.

[Andrea Gunning]

It was very real for Sarah, especially when she found out she wasn't Jewish at all. For three years, Sarah was repeatedly dismissed and belittled by Becky, told that she didn't know what she was talking about when it came to her faith. And worst of all, when Sarah was going through a mental health crisis, Becky was there saying she'd been through something similar and telling Sarah that maybe she wasn't cut out to be a parent.

[Sarah]

For me, it was transparently life or death. At one point point, with stories like this, if I hear them from other people, you know, like on, like, that Catfish show, I'm like, at what point would this person call it? At what point would this person be like, okay? And for her, it was not a new mom considering ending things. So I. I don't know what it could possibly be because anyone in their right mind would have stopped. She knew what I was going through. Everyone did, and she just did that regardless.

[Andrea Gunning]

It was an insidious kind of interaction that undermined Sarah's trust in herself. Becky was like a personification of Sarah's worst fears.

[Sarah]

That insecurity was there, and it's not like her doing that. It was there. A lot of it was just that I felt that way. But she really honed in on it. She could really sense that stuff. And it's taken until, like, a couple days ago to realize how awful and how deep it went and how much it affected me. This whole experience just really made me doubt my abilities as a parent and myself as a person. And just, like, basically every aspect of my identity that I had spent so long trying to find it, like, shook everything.

[Andrea Gunning]

But then she started seeing it all differently.

[Sarah]

I saw that she had lied about something that made me feel like an imposter, and she was the imposter the whole time. I had actually done it. Like, I had overcome a lot of the same things that she had lied about.

[Andrea Gunning]

She's not just talking about parenting. She's talking about persevering after a tough childhood and homelessness, finding identity in a new religion and surviving a postpartum mental health crisis.

[Sarah]

It went from me being angry about that and feeling like I had let myself down to me feeling like I am really proud of myself. I did this thing that is so hard that she had to lie about it. I did it for real.

[Andrea Gunning]

One question Sarah still has is that out of all the groups to catfish, why did Becky choose this one?

[Sarah]

I really can't understand her reason for finding a group that was parents trying to break cycles of abuse and take advantage of them and, like, make them doubt themselves. People who are in this incredibly vulnerable spot of trying to be better for their children and trying to be better for themselves. If I were evil, I would leave that one alone. You know, I just. That seems like a line.

[Andrea Gunning]

Becky's deception changed the group, but for Sarah, it brought her closer to the other real parents out there who really wanted to connect and support each other.

[Sarah]

A lot of people did actually just disappear. Just quit Facebook, quit online stuff. I not blame them at all. But the thing that I found so kind of heartwarming, like, it almost feels like a Hallmark movie, is this, like, pack of moms that, in hindsight, saw somebody messing with other moms and their kids and were like, absolutely not. And we were there for each other, and we've gotten really Close. A lot of us have the way that we were able to show up for each other. That kind of undid a lot of the distrust that was immediately planted by this. Like, that was the initial function of the group.

[Andrea Gunning]

We first heard about this story through someone else, another mom who wrote into our email betrayalpodmail.com on betrayal. We share stories about how one person couldn't see the deception right in front of them. But in this case, it was a group of thousands of people, a whole community. So we asked members to send in voice notes about how Becky impacted them. This is what they said. I got to know her family.

[Sarah]

She presented herself as this perfect parent.

[Andrea Gunning]

She posted prolifically and also judging other people's parenting like she was just this kind of professional. She would center herself in these conversations as almost an authority figure.

[Sarah]

She always made it seem like it was this effortless, seamless thing and she just has it all together. I saw my spouse self conscious. It's really aggravating that anybody is comparing themselves to somebody who is like, measurably impossible. I truly felt like I wasn't good enough. I was not a good enough parent.

[Andrea Gunning]

When the community found out that Becky was a fraud, that deception felt personal.

[Sarah]

Becky was talking to children, pretending to be children.

[Andrea Gunning]

Her father's not dead. He's living still and is a physician.

[Sarah]

I've seen several friends of mine severely impacted by this and how they just can't trust anybody. So many of us are really trying our best and our great parents, we just are not the perfect parent because the perfect parent does not exist.

[Andrea Gunning]

Sarah doesn't like the framing of looking on the bright side or the silver lining. But she did learn something from all of this. Here's Sarah again.

[Sarah]

This was one of the situations in my life that pushed me to begin questioning, like, who put you in charge? That's a simple question, but it has been incredibly difficult for me to ask because I was taught under no circumstances should you ever ask that. And now I do.

[Andrea Gunning]

Today, Sarah has big news.

[Sarah]

Well, I'm almost eight months pregnant. We are having a little girl.

[Andrea Gunning]

And this time around, she's feeling more confident in herself.

[Sarah]

I don't feel the sense of dread that I thought I would because I've put a lot of effort into building a super strong community online and in real life with people that I know and people that I trust. I'm really excited to start out with the confidence in my role as the Jewish mom. I'm feeling really confident and excited in my abilities, in Paul's abilities, and in my son's abilities to be a big brother. I mean, there are challenges always, and I have no idea what they're gonna be yet, but I think that we can handle it.

[Andrea Gunning]

We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question. Why did you want to tell your story?

[Sarah]

The reason that I want to talk about it is because I do think that she can't stop. I do think that she's doing it again. And I think that there are people, other people in the world who do stuff like this, of course. And so I want to be there for another person to just say, like, you're not crazy.

[Andrea Gunning]

On the next episode of Betrayal.

[Sarah]

He eventually told me the whole story and I said, why me? He said, as my uncle was saying, why not you?

[Andrea Gunning]

If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team or want to tell us your Betrayal story, email [e-mail] that's betrayalpodmail.com we're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Monique Laborde, also produced by Ben Federman. Associate producers are Kristen Melchiori and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crime. Check Audio editing and mixing by Matt Del Vecchio Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Baines Music library provided by Mib Music and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Black Friday is coming. And for the adults in your life who love the coolest, well, there's something for them this year too. Bartisian is the premier craft cocktail maker that automatically makes more than 60 seasonal and classic cocktails each in under 30 seconds at the push of a button. And right now Bartisian is having a huge site wide sale. You can get $100 off any cocktail maker or cocktail maker bundle when you spend $400 or more. So if the cocktail lover in your life has been good this year or the right kind of bad, get them Bartesian at the push of a button. Make bar quality Cosmopolitans, Martinis, Manhattans and more all in just 30 seconds. All for a hundred off amazing toys aren't just for kids. Get a hundred off a cocktail maker when you spend 400 through Cyber Monday. Visit bartesian.com cocktail that's B A R T.

[Andrea Gunning]

Meet Groons the new way to get your daily greens in one easy step. Say goodbye to messy powders and large pills. These all in one eight daily gummies simplify your health routine with 20 plus vitamins, minerals, and 60 whole food ingredients. They're vegan, gluten free, and taste just like a fruit snack for the little ones in your life. Don't forget to check out Groon's Kids, a specifically formulated version designed to meet the nutritional needs of growing children right now. Get 45% off your first order with code Betrayal. Discover Groons. Get your daily greens the easiest way possible. You're gonna love it. Sometimes where a crime took place leads you to answer why the crime happened in the first place. Hi, I'm Sloan Glass, host of the new true crime podcast American Homicide. In this series, we'll examine some of the country's most infamous and mysterious murders and learn how the location of the crime becomes a character in the story. Listen to American homicide on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.