EP 30 - Tina

Summary

Betrayal: Weekly – Episode 30: Tina

Introduction to Tina Maia

In Episode 30 of Betrayal: Weekly, host Andrea Gunning delves into the harrowing story of Tina Maia, a successful e-commerce consultant from the UK whose life was irrevocably changed by deception and betrayal. This episode uncovers Tina's journey from a thriving career and family life to confronting a manipulative individual who shattered her trust and left lasting scars.

Tina's Background and Life Before Betrayal

Tina Maia’s story begins with her rich cultural heritage and diverse life experiences. Born in Iran before the revolution, Tina moved to Southeast England in 1978, where she grew up in a serene, green neighborhood. Her adventurous spirit led her to travel extensively after university, living in countries like Australia, Thailand, India, and Costa Rica. In the 1990s and 2000s, Tina embraced the burgeoning potential of the internet, building a successful career in digital sales that eventually brought her to New York City. There, she met her husband, Spencer Herron, a beloved soccer coach and award-winning teacher. By her mid-30s, Tina and Spencer had a son, Leo, and Tina thrived as a single mother after separating from Spencer to pursue a prestigious job back in the UK.

Meeting Neil Lawman

In 2016, Tina attended a tech conference in London where she met Neil Lawman, a charismatic individual from Essex, often likened to the party persona of "Jersey Shore." Their initial interaction was purely professional, exchanging business cards among numerous contacts. However, Neil's persistent texting led Tina to agree to a casual drink, setting the stage for their brief romance.

Developing Relationship and the Shocking Revelation

Their relationship progressed swiftly, characterized by fun and flirtation. Tina recounts, “I didn't see it as being long-term, serious relationship prospect. It was not where my head was.” However, the revelation came unexpectedly when Tina discovered she was pregnant at 41. Despite Neil’s claims of infertility due to a vasectomy, Tina’s reality was starkly different. At [12:07], she explains, “So I went to the bathroom and read the instructions and then, yeah, popped the lid on. You’re supposed to wait three minutes. Immediately came up pregnant.”

Confronting Neil and His Reaction

Determined to handle the pregnancy independently, Tina decided to inform Neil. Expecting a standard reaction, she instead encountered hostility. At [14:46], Tina describes Neil’s response: “He sent me long, long, long, abusive text messages that I wouldn’t lift a finger to help your child.” Neil vehemently denied paternity, accusing Tina of deceit and harassment. His aggressive behavior escalated, incorporating legal threats and personal attacks, leaving Tina bewildered and hurt.

Tina's Investigation into Neil

Unsettled by Neil's inconsistent stories—such as his claims of infertility despite existing children—Tina initiated a thorough investigation. She discovered discrepancies in Neil’s financial status and familial background. At [26:02], Tina revealed, “It came back that firstly, it said that he only had support pay five pounds a week because he was in receipt of benefits.” Further digging exposed Neil’s deception, including multiple children he fathered under false pretenses and his involvement in fraudulent schemes.

Formation of the Facebook Group and Uncovering Neil's Misconduct

Teaming up with Wendy, Neil's ex-wife, Tina established a Facebook group titled "Neil Dorman Victim Support Group" to connect with other affected individuals. The group became a platform for women to share their experiences, revealing a widespread pattern of manipulation, deceit, and emotional abuse orchestrated by Neil. Tina notes at [38:21], “He would befriend somebody, get into their lives, understand their business, and then take over the business. He would just make a copy of it and then take all the customers and try to start these businesses that were other people's.”

Impact on Tina and Her Children

The betrayal not only affected Tina but also had profound implications for her children. Her newborn daughter, Josephine, faced critical health issues shortly after birth, exacerbating the emotional trauma. Tina’s dedication to her children remained unwavering, even as she navigated the challenges of single motherhood and the emotional fallout from Neil’s deceit. At [45:27], Tina reflects, “What hurts and what causes damage is the lies, not the truth. I've seen it over and over again that a lot of the children, the people, the victims have all been impacted, impacted so negatively by this trail of lies upon lies upon lies.”

Attempts at Legal Justice and Ongoing Struggles

Despite Tina’s efforts to hold Neil accountable, including reporting him to the police and exposing his fraudulent activities, justice remained elusive. Neil’s ability to evade legal repercussions suggested possible deeper manipulations, leaving Tina frustrated and determined to seek truth and closure on her own terms.

Tina's Conclusion and Message

Tina Maia's story is one of resilience and the relentless pursuit of truth in the face of profound betrayal. She emphasizes the importance of honesty and the devastating impact of deceit on victims and their families. At the episode's conclusion, Tina shares her motivation for sharing her story: “If I can help one person avoid that pain, avoid going through this situation or to get out before it's something devastating, if I can help one of the mothers out there to feel not alone, that overcomes all of his darkness, all of his lies, I think that can only be a positive thing.”

Notable Quotes

• Tina Maia [02:07]: "There's definitely an element of control. He can walk away, but he can remotely control the rest of your life."

• Andrea Gunning [03:23]: "Her story is also one of community. Along the way, she found a group of other women who'd been deceived and betrayed by the same man."

• Tina Maia [16:32]: "He started to come up with a story when he was in the hospital with his kidney infection. They found cancer cells and how selfish I am and what a horrible person I am for having told him that I was pregnant and that I'm basically killing him."

• Tina Maia [45:27]: "What hurts and what causes damage is the lies, not the truth."

Conclusion

Episode 30 of Betrayal: Weekly masterfully unravels Tina Maia’s profound journey through deceit, resilience, and the quest for truth. Through detailed storytelling and poignant quotes, listeners gain an intimate understanding of the emotional and psychological toll of betrayal, highlighting the importance of community and truth in overcoming personal trauma.

Transcript

[Andrea Gunning]

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[Andrea Gunning]

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[Tina Maia]

A friend of mine described it really well. She said it's not like he's a catch me if you can type person. He actually lies to make himself as nice normal as possible, just like your average bloke. And it's true, his facade was authenticity.

[Andrea Gunning]

I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. Tina Maia is a successful e commerce consultant in the UK. In 2016, a casual romantic fling turned her entire world upside down. It showed her a dark side of humanity, one that she'd never seen before.

[Tina Maia]

There's definitely an element of control. He can walk away, but he can remotely control the rest of your life.

[Andrea Gunning]

Her story is also one of community. Along the way, she found a group of other women who'd been deceived and betrayed by the same man. Tina's become their spokesperson and the spokesperson for a much larger story. Tina was raised to be opinionated and strong willed.

[Tina Maia]

So I was born in Iran actually before the revolution. We came here in 1978 and I grew up in Southeast England, so very green leafy part of the world.

[Andrea Gunning]

When she graduated from university, she traveled and spent years living abroad.

[Tina Maia]

I went to Australia and Thailand and India as well, a lot of places, Costa Rica, you know, I spent a lot of time building my career and living Life.

[Andrea Gunning]

In the 90s and 2000s, Tina was early to adopt the Internet's potential, especially for commerce and online retail. She made a career working in digital sales. That ended up taking her to New York City where she met her husband. By her mid-30s, they welcomed a son, Leo.

[Tina Maia]

He was an incredible baby and I really enjoyed becoming a mother.

[Andrea Gunning]

But her husband, on the other hand, struggled.

[Tina Maia]

He wasn't a very hands on father. It was just Leo and me against the world for a while.

[Andrea Gunning]

When Tina was offered a prestigious job back in the uk, she separated from her husband and made the leap. Now her daily life was focused on work and raising her son. For Tina, being a single mom to one child felt manageable. She loved that dynamic.

[Tina Maia]

I was at a mom's drinks thing and I remember having a conversation with one of the mums who had a lot of problems with the second child. She's sitting there like, you got it right. Like one child. The dream.

[Andrea Gunning]

When her son started grade school, Tina had more nights to herself.

[Tina Maia]

He spent more time with friends, he goes to sleepovers, got a little bit more independence. I wasn't actively going out and dating or anything like that. I was so busy, I wasn't even thinking about dating. It wasn't on the radar.

[Andrea Gunning]

In 2016, she attended a tech conference in London. That day she must have met and exchanged contact info with at least 30 people, one of them being Neil Lawman.

[Tina Maia]

He's a very charismatic person. He's very good looking. I suppose he was a bit flirtatious.

[Andrea Gunning]

Neil was from Essex, to put it in American terms.

[Tina Maia]

I guess the American version would be Jersey Shore.

[Andrea Gunning]

Think party culture and spray tans. Tina's interaction with Neil was nothing special, just a friendly exchange of business cards. She assumed it was a professional connection. But soon Neil began texting her.

[Tina Maia]

And then one day he texted me and I had just closed a very significant deal. So I was in a Very good mood. And he said that he was in the area and asked me if I.

[Andrea Gunning]

Fancied going for a drink that night. Her son was at a sleepover.

[Tina Maia]

I said, you know what, why not?

[Andrea Gunning]

It was perfect timing. So they met at a neighborhood pub.

[Tina Maia]

We sat down and started talking. He was very open, asked me about, you know, my life.

[Andrea Gunning]

She talked about her son and her ex husband in America and Neil shared details about his past.

[Tina Maia]

He told me that his ex wife, they'd lived together in the US and she had cheated on him and she'd run off with his best friend.

[Andrea Gunning]

The reason his wife had left was because Neil couldn't have kids.

[Tina Maia]

She was very bitter about the fact that he couldn't give her children. And then he went on to tell me about the fact that he'd had cancer and it's testicular cancer, so it was impossible.

[Andrea Gunning]

It was a touchy subject. Neil seemed deeply hurt by his ex wife. Tina felt for him.

[Tina Maia]

He seemed almost a little bit vulnerable, like he had this sort of emotional vulnerability about him.

[Andrea Gunning]

The night was going well and before long they found themselves in another bar making jokes and inching closer together. She liked him but she wanted to keep it casual.

[Tina Maia]

I didn't see it as being long term, serious relationship prospect. That was not where my head was. It's not the sort of time that I had. I wasn't interested in bringing anyone into my son's life. It was just letting my hair down and having a bit of fun, really.

[Andrea Gunning]

And Neil knew how to have a good time.

[Tina Maia]

He had that sort of cheeky chappy Jack the lad kind of thing about him. It was fun.

[Andrea Gunning]

At the end of their night together.

[Tina Maia]

He walked me home in the very early hours of the morning.

[Andrea Gunning]

They kissed goodnight and Neil said he wanted to see her again. He was often in her area because he owned and managed a few properties there. He promised to text the next time he was in her neighborhood and he did so after their first night out.

[Tina Maia]

Together, he continued to text me and then he would come over once a week or so.

[Andrea Gunning]

Tina couldn't remember the last time she had a fling like this. It had to have been well before her marriage. It was just what she needed. It made her feel sexy and confident. Before they slept together, I said to.

[Tina Maia]

Him that I wasn't on the pill. Does he have anything? He said, no, I'm really allergic to latex.

[Andrea Gunning]

Tina was 41 and after his testicular cancer treatments, Neil couldn't have kids without the pill or using regular condoms. They settled on another method.

[Tina Maia]

I was Quite adamant about using withdrawal methods. And I'd asked him, did you withdraw in time? Because I could have gone and got a plan B. But he was like, no, absolutely.

[Andrea Gunning]

Over the next few months, they saw each other whenever they could. And Tina got to know more about him.

[Tina Maia]

He said that he went to the London School of Economics, which is sort of Harvard Business School level.

[Andrea Gunning]

But when Tina tried to talk about the neighborhood where the school's located, Neil seemed confused, like he didn't know the area. But it had been decades since Neil was in school, so Tina didn't think much of it.

[Tina Maia]

I didn't really question it too much. I wasn't thinking of him as husband material or something, so things weren't registering too much with me.

[Andrea Gunning]

Eventually, Neil's appeal started to wear off.

[Tina Maia]

There was just one too many things that just wasn't adding up or ringing true. Like he would make a plan and then have some weird excuse. And, like, it's starting to be less fun now.

[Andrea Gunning]

She was ready to move on. So she stopped responding promptly to his texts.

[Tina Maia]

Kind of wanted to phase it out anyway, so it got a little cold.

[Andrea Gunning]

A few weeks later. She didn't feel quite like herself.

[Tina Maia]

I was misplacing things. I was looking for my car keys all over the place and realized that I thrown them in the wheelie bin with my rubbish.

[Andrea Gunning]

When I threw the rubbish out, this feeling was familiar.

[Tina Maia]

Funny thing, I normally only do things like that when I'm pregnant. I don't get morning sickness, I don't get cravings, but I get very forgetful.

[Andrea Gunning]

She confided in a friend about what was going on.

[Tina Maia]

She said to me, go and get a pregnancy test. And she said, as soon as you do that, then you realize that, you know, you not pregnant, then the period will come. I'm like, you know, that's a really good idea.

[Andrea Gunning]

So she got the test.

[Tina Maia]

So I went to the bathroom and read the instructions and then, yeah, popped the lid on. You're supposed to wait three minutes. Immediately came up pregnant. Like, okay, I'll just wait the full three minutes for the not to come up.

[Andrea Gunning]

She was pregnant at 41. Even though it was unexpected and unplanned, she felt immediately connected to this child.

[Tina Maia]

It's hard to describe, but she was very present in me very early on. There was something very, very strong about this present. And I felt that right away.

[Andrea Gunning]

Even still, it was a massive shock because the baby had to be Neil's.

[Tina Maia]

If there hadn't been anybody else.

[Andrea Gunning]

But Neil was infertile, so this baby was a Medical miracle. Tina turned to her friend who suggested maybe Neil would be happy about the baby.

[Tina Maia]

She was like, oh, lazy ears. He didn't know that he could have children.

[Andrea Gunning]

Miracle baby or not, Tina knew that she and Neil didn't have a future together. Now she had to break up with him and tell him the news.

[Tina Maia]

Wow. Okay, this is going to be awkward.

[Andrea Gunning]

Then she took a few days to think and finally sent Neil a message.

[Tina Maia]

So I said, I need to talk to you, but to meet up tomorrow. I can come and meet you, but need to have a little chat. And then he said something along the lines of, yeah, yeah, sure, I'll send my brother to meet you. I'm like, no, because we need to talk. And he said, well, I don't see why there's anything you can't tell me here. I was like, really? You want me to tell you? I need to tell you over text. And he's like, yeah. I was like, okay, fine, if you insist. And so I said, I am pregnant. You are the only option of who the father is. And then he answered a little bit strangely. He said, nice try. I had a vasectomy. Vasectomy. And I sent him a picture of the pregnancy test. I said, well, it didn't work.

[Andrea Gunning]

She wasn't expecting anything from him.

[Tina Maia]

One of the things that I immediately said was, I'm not expecting or asking you to be a father to the child. I am letting you know because it's a responsible thing to do and you could be as uninvolved as you wish.

[Andrea Gunning]

She didn't know how he would react, but she certainly wasn't expecting what happened next.

[Tina Maia]

Things turned nasty on his part, which took me aback. He sent me a whole load of nasty voicemails. Hi, Tina. Let's talk about this baby. Okay, now there's something very strange about this baby. Let me explain it to you. You could just hear in his voice that turn and how nasty he became. It was like real vitriol.

[Andrea Gunning]

In these messages, Neil doubled down on his story.

[Tina Maia]

I have zero sperm. It's medically impossible. If it were, I'd still be living happily with my wife in the usa. We split up because she wanted kids and I couldn't have them.

[Andrea Gunning]

As the messages and calls kept coming, it got more personal.

[Tina Maia]

He said, you'll be a single mom and you won't be able to get a job and you won't be able.

[Andrea Gunning]

To work and you'll be poor, then meaner and oh.

[Tina Maia]

He accused me of thinking of him.

[Andrea Gunning]

As a cash cow, then kind of scary.

[Tina Maia]

And then he said that he had gone to the police and reported me to the police. At first he said harassment, and then he said that he'd reported me for entrapment.

[Andrea Gunning]

And some of his messages were downright strange.

[Tina Maia]

He started to come up with a story when he was in the hospital with his kidney infection. They found cancer cells and how selfish I am and what a horrible person I am for having told him that I was pregnant and that I'm basically killing him.

[Andrea Gunning]

From her first date with Neil, she knew he wasn't a keeper, but she had no idea he could be this cruel.

[Tina Maia]

Whoa. This is not normal. This was really strange. So I'm going to tell you something. I will have nothing to do with you. Nothing to do with you claiming I'm father of your child. You can keep the baby. Great for you. But it ain't mine, darling. It seriously, seriously isn't mine. I just thought he was an asshole. My friend who's kinder than me thought that he was in some sort of state of shock because he thought he could never have children.

[Andrea Gunning]

But Neil wasn't in shock and he wasn't in denial. Tina didn't know it at the time, but this was something far more insidious.

[Tina Maia]

This is something that he's gone through many, very, very, very many times over.

[Andrea Gunning]

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[Tina Maia]

I said, yeah, I'll let you know when she's born and you can decide if you want to have a DNA test or not. That's your right. And then he replied, no, thank you. I will not be participating in any DNA test. Okay, no worries.

[Andrea Gunning]

As far as Tina was concerned, Neil was out of the picture.

[Tina Maia]

And I went on, obviously I had a lot to deal with.

[Andrea Gunning]

She blocked him and moved forward with the rest of her pregnancy. It wouldn't be her first time as a single mom. Tina's friends and family rallied around her to provide support, and she needed it, especially when the baby was born.

[Tina Maia]

When I went into labor, both she and I got an infection. She went blue, and she was there in an incubator. She also had very, very, very bad jaundice.

[Andrea Gunning]

Her newborn baby, Josephine, was in critical condition. She had a severe lung infection. The doctor wanted to prepare for a blood transfusion.

[Tina Maia]

He said, so, yeah, just in case the worst case scenario, we're going to need to get medical history, blood Types the parents, in case there's some kind of rarity, genetic rarity or something like that. I was like, well, I could only.

[Andrea Gunning]

Give you half, but half wasn't good enough, especially considering Neil's history of cancer.

[Tina Maia]

There was probably a complex medical history that we needed to know about before we give this baby a blood transfusion. She was two days old.

[Andrea Gunning]

Instead of reaching out to Neil, she decided to call one of his friends, the only friend of his she knew how to reach.

[Tina Maia]

I said, listen, here's my hospital number. This is the doctor's name. Can you just have him tell them blood type, any kind of medical history, anything like that?

[Andrea Gunning]

Neil's friend tried to get him to go or at least to call the.

[Tina Maia]

Hospital, and he's like, no, absolutely. I told him he needs to get his house down there right away.

[Andrea Gunning]

But Neil never showed up.

[Tina Maia]

No call has come through to reception. So, yeah, he's not here and has not been here.

[Andrea Gunning]

And then while Tina was lying in her hospital bed, she got a text from Neil.

[Tina Maia]

He sent me long, long, long, abusive text messages that I wouldn't lift a finger to help your child, even if she did have my DNA. I am not giving any information to any doctors. I'm like, oh, okay, you are a psychopath. This is a two day old baby. And all I asked is for you to make a phone call, which anybody would do for a stranger's baby, for a kitten. No human being would refuse to make a phone call to potentially save a baby.

[Andrea Gunning]

But Neil refused. He was not interested in helping the baby. He was more concerned with lashing out at Tina.

[Tina Maia]

But he called me vile tongued, foul woman, all sorts of, like, horrible names. Like, yeah, I just given birth, I was in hospital with needles stuck in me for the antibiotics and things like that. I was like, this is a really evil person.

[Andrea Gunning]

She was beyond anger.

[Tina Maia]

I was disgusted. I was disgusted. I was like, yeah, whatever you are, you have no humanity.

[Andrea Gunning]

Up until this moment, she'd planned to raise the baby completely on her own without asking Neil for a single penny. But after he showed his true colors.

[Tina Maia]

She decided, you know what? I'm just going to send the child support agency after you for the next 18 years. Bye. Bye.

[Andrea Gunning]

She figured the courts could handle Neil and she and her family could move on. Luckily, her newborn daughter recovered without needing a blood transfusion.

[Tina Maia]

After a week of being in hospital, we were both able to go home.

[Andrea Gunning]

When she got home with Joseph, Josephine, or Fifi, as she calls her, their house was full of joy. Her son, who was 8, became a doting big brother.

[Tina Maia]

My son adored her from day one and she was just the sweetest baby.

[Andrea Gunning]

Now, with two children to support, Tina had to return to work just two weeks later.

[Tina Maia]

So I took the mandatory two weeks and went back to work. I was back on a train in London. I had a nanny and a friend helped me out also with her. And yeah, back to work.

[Andrea Gunning]

One day, while she was on her way to work, she decided to call the UK's Child Support Agency to get the paperwork started for child support. After they looked into Tina's claim, the agency contacted her with surprising news about Neil.

[Tina Maia]

It came back that firstly, it said that he only had support pay five pounds a week because he was in.

[Andrea Gunning]

Receipt of benefits, meaning that Neil was on unemployment. But that didn't add up to Tina. She met him at a tech conference. He owned his own company, she'd met his co workers. She tried to explain this to the child support agency and I said, well.

[Tina Maia]

He'S not, and if he is, he shouldn't be because he's got a business. I mean, I've seen it, I know he has a functioning business.

[Andrea Gunning]

But the government didn't have records of his businesses or income. And that wasn't all.

[Tina Maia]

The other interesting thing was that five pounds a week was split between my daughter and three other children. I was like, okay, so here's a new spin.

[Andrea Gunning]

Neil had three other children. What about his story of being infertile? Tina went into investigation mode, searching for business and personal records of Neil Lawman.

[Tina Maia]

I went all the way back to one a number of years ago.

[Andrea Gunning]

In Neil's records, she found the name of a woman, someone who'd changed her last name to Lawman.

[Tina Maia]

So I was like, okay, that must be his ex wife. If she is an ex wife, it might be his current wife.

[Andrea Gunning]

Maybe this was the woman he'd been married to in the States. But Tina didn't really know what to believe anymore.

[Tina Maia]

At this point, I realized that there's a lot of lies. So I go on Facebook and Norman isn't a common name. I pull it up and there's her Facebook profile.

[Andrea Gunning]

The first thing she noticed about her.

[Tina Maia]

Profile, she was not in America, she's right here in the uk.

[Andrea Gunning]

And the second, pictures of two girls.

[Tina Maia]

Who are undoubtedly his daughters.

[Andrea Gunning]

Looking at the photos of two little girls clearly related to Neil made Tina's head spin. At the very least, she knew she'd found the right person.

[Tina Maia]

So I text her on Facebook and yeah, obviously I didn't know what to expect. I didn't know how she would react, if she would respond at all. I didn't know if they were still married and he'd lied about that. I had no idea what to expect from this. But yeah, what could I do? So I wrote her a message and she immediately responded. The first line of a very long message said, I'm so, so sorry that you have been his victim.

[Andrea Gunning]

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[Tina Maia]

Yeah, we start talking and communicating and.

[Andrea Gunning]

His ex wife had a story to tell. She'd been with him for 10 years. They had two daughters together. Then one day Neil walked out, leaving her with a significant amount of debt.

[Tina Maia]

If she hadn't been bailed out by her parents, they would have been on the street or something like that. And yeah, she seemed traumatized.

[Andrea Gunning]

Neil had claimed that his wife cheated on him, that she left him because he was infertile. He said she was still back in America. But it turns out Wendy very much lived in the uk. In fact, she lived in the same neighborhood as Tina. Now, Tina could safely assume everything he'd ever told was a lie.

[Tina Maia]

So we now know that the whole America thing was a lie. Cancer thing. Well, you know, even if he'd had cancer, it did not cause infertility. I'm like, wow, okay, great. Now we're down a rabbit hole.

[Andrea Gunning]

Tina and Wendy agreed to meet for dinner to talk in person.

[Tina Maia]

So we met up in London. We both like sushi, so we went to a very nice sushi restaurant.

[Andrea Gunning]

Right away, Tina was struck by how familiar Wendy seemed. The two women had the same energy, independent, confident and outgoing. Wendy had some important information for Tina. Things she needed to know. You see, after Neil left her, Wendy found out about two more children. Two sons he had fathered before her daughters were born. Tina stared at Wendy, processing the reality that her daughter was one of five. How many more kids were out there? And what would that mean for her daughter? For their daughters? It was a reality Wendy had barely begun to confront herself.

[Tina Maia]

She'd said that she had never told her daughters about the older boys that she'd found out about.

[Andrea Gunning]

Since Neil left Wendy, he'd barely spoken to their two young daughters.

[Tina Maia]

Nothing, absolutely nothing in all of these years except an annual birthday phone call to one of the children where you would lie about having sent a gift but, you know, never arrived.

[Andrea Gunning]

Tina and Wendy ordered another round of martinis and talked until the restaurant closed. Before they said goodbye, Tina got an idea.

[Tina Maia]

Let's do something a little bit funny. So we took a selfie. We were both giving the bird and we sent him an email with just a picture and entitled the other mother, Mother. Aha. He went ballistic.

[Andrea Gunning]

Neil started sending unhinged emails to Tina, to Wendy, even to his ex father in law.

[Tina Maia]

And then he'd also sent a horrific email to my work. A very graphic slut shaming email addressed to the entire company, including the CEO.

[Andrea Gunning]

She was horrified. This was too far.

[Tina Maia]

So I reported this to the police and they did take it quite seriously and they said that it was malicious communication.

[Andrea Gunning]

But this wasn't the first time the cops had investigated Neil.

[Tina Maia]

He was also involved in a very high profile fraud case of the Fimbo Wine scheme. And his ex girlfriend actually ended up serving time for that. But he just walked away scot free.

[Andrea Gunning]

Allegedly he'd been implicated in a multi million dollar fraud scheme. And there was more. In total he had 11 offenses and five convictions. But he never served any prison time.

[Tina Maia]

He like Teflon, nothing sticks.

[Andrea Gunning]

After Tina reported Neil to the police, she waited for an update. She'd given them all the information she had on him and the officer said they'd call her when they made an arrest. But months went by without word. When Tina called for an update, strangely.

[Tina Maia]

The police were like, well, we can't find him. He went underground or something. And then after a year, the warrant was cancelled, which I found odd.

[Andrea Gunning]

Tina knew where he was, he wasn't hiding at all.

[Tina Maia]

It's like, well, I could find him, why can't you?

[Andrea Gunning]

This got Tina thinking.

[Tina Maia]

It crossed my mind that he might have been an informant. And yeah, he got himself out of these things by giving information to throw other people on the bus.

[Andrea Gunning]

It's again, that's just a theory. If the police weren't going to give her answers or justice, she was going to find them herself. So she reached out to Wendy and together they came up with another idea.

[Tina Maia]

We said, look, why don't we start a Facebook group that has his name in it. So at least if someone's looking to sort of date him or get into business and they look him up on Facebook, it'll come up, maybe give them a red flag, give them a warning. So we set up this Facebook group called the Neil Dorman Victim Support Group. It was a little tongue in cheek, but yeah. The interesting thing was that, you know, one after another, people actually started to join and tell their stories.

[Andrea Gunning]

As the group grew, Neil tried to get it taken down. But Facebook declared it legitimate public interest. Through this page, they discovered that Neil was allegedly running quite a few schemes at the same time. There were lots of posts about his alleged shady business dealings when it came to starting new businesses. The posts suggested that Neil had an M.O.

[Tina Maia]

He would befriend somebody, get into their lives, get understand their business, and then take over the business. He would just make a copy of it and then take all the customers and try and start these businesses that were other people's. And then suddenly, he's an expert.

[Andrea Gunning]

And then there were all the women he'd ghosted, women he'd met online and started serious long distance relationships with.

[Tina Maia]

There was a diplomat he'd had an online relationship with for years.

[Andrea Gunning]

When this woman finally booked a trip to meet him in person, he said he would pick her up at the airport. But when she landed, he wasn't there. She tried to call him and she realized he blocked her. She never heard from him again.

[Tina Maia]

He's done that a lot. He's done that a lot. There's been quite a few people that he's had these sort of online, ongoing relationships with.

[Andrea Gunning]

These stories were bizarre. Was he doing it for the money to resell the expensive hotel room bookings and concert tickets? Or was it all just one big game to him? Whatever the case, in every story, Neil didn't stick around. Instead, his victims were left to deal with the consequences of his actions. And some were never the same. Like one woman, she was only 18.

[Tina Maia]

At the time, thought she was going for a job interview. And then he said, oh, there's meetings going on in the office. You have to meet me. There's the restaurant downstairs. And bought her a drink.

[Andrea Gunning]

She wrote to Tina. In her Facebook messages, she said that she woke up in a hotel room disoriented. She alleged that she'd been drugged and raped.

[Tina Maia]

She didn't go to the police because she felt ashamed.

[Andrea Gunning]

Multiple women shared stories like this one. Their Facebook posts alleged that Neil was not just a con artist, but a violent man.

[Tina Maia]

The fact that they had these almost identical stories makes me think that, yes, that's a pattern.

[Andrea Gunning]

As the group grew, Tina continued to wonder, did anyone out there have a story like hers?

[Tina Maia]

And then another mother came along.

[Andrea Gunning]

Her son was now an adult, but she knew Neil was the father of.

[Tina Maia]

And it turned out that her son was only a few weeks older than one of his other sons. And they lived down the road from each other.

[Andrea Gunning]

Their families knew each other. The boys never interacted, but they easily could have.

[Tina Maia]

I mean, that's how close they were.

[Andrea Gunning]

Through the group Kids, Tina learned more about Neil's backstory, and it was revealing.

[Tina Maia]

As far as I'm aware, he believed that his stepfather was his real father until he was about 14, and then the mother told him the truth, but he was rejected by his own father. But he was never in Neil's life like his mom.

[Andrea Gunning]

Neil also had his first child in.

[Tina Maia]

His teens, when Neil was about 18. That's when he got the first mother pregnant. She was only 15 at the time the baby was born, and he ran off after that.

[Andrea Gunning]

It seemed like this became a pattern of his. And this wasn't just about having unprotected sex, but or fathering many kids. He was intentionally deceiving women into believing he was infertile. These women who got pregnant would be tied to Neil forever.

[Tina Maia]

There's definitely an element of control, like he can remotely control the rest of your life. He can walk away but still keep that control.

[Andrea Gunning]

So how many children does Neil Lahman actually have? Well, four have been confirmed by DNA. But there are many women who believe Neil is the father of their children.

[Tina Maia]

From people coming forward and talking to us, there are at least 13 credible children that the mothers have said that he's the father.

[Andrea Gunning]

So the scheme clearly didn't end with Tina. The 13 mothers have become a kind of group. They've bonded. Some of them are even friends.

[Tina Maia]

Tina admits he does have good taste in women. It's his one redeeming quality. And it's interesting because he doesn't tend to go for vulnerable women. He doesn't tend to go for women who he can control financially or who don't have close families and things like that. It's almost like a challenge to him that he will target women who are strong, who have careers, who are accomplished, and break them down.

[Andrea Gunning]

But of course, Neil's victims aren't just the women. Some members of their Facebook group are Neil's now adult children. Many of them haven't been confirmed by DNA, but one of them tried to find Neil. He told Tina about the experience.

[Tina Maia]

He told me about when he was a teenager. He'd gone to try and find him, and he'd waited outside his office. He'd spoken to him on the phone, and he seemed all right on the phone. But then when he went to meet him, he waited at a coffee shop across from where he worked. And then Neil came down and saw him and just turned the other way and walked away. A lot of these stories are very heartbreaking.

[Andrea Gunning]

Hearing these stories, Tina felt even more certain that justice needed to be served. And in talking to a police officer, she heard something that piqued her interest.

[Tina Maia]

This could be considered raped by deception.

[Andrea Gunning]

Rape by deception is a situation in which a perpetrator deceives someone in order to get sexual consent. The victim wouldn't have consented if not for a crucial lie like one around the perpetrator's std or fertility status. Rape by deception isn't a specific charge. It's a way of arguing and giving context to a situation as rape, Even if it falls outside the typical definition of rape under the law. And it's been used before in cases like Tina's.

[Tina Maia]

There was another high profile case whereby someone who is a convicted rapist was taken to court because he'd claimed to have had a vasectomy and got a woman pregnant, and the jury had ruled him guilty. He was given a sentence. However, they appealed it, and the supreme court overruled the conviction.

[Andrea Gunning]

For Tina, there's still a lot of work to be done around this issue. In the meantime, she's had to move forward with her life and focus on her kids.

[Tina Maia]

My daughter is an absolute blessing gift. She's a ray of sunshine. You know, the irony of this whole thing is that she looks just like him.

[Andrea Gunning]

Tina has learned to navigate some tough questions with care. For instance, her daughter has asked, is.

[Tina Maia]

My dad a nice person? I was like, your father? He's not a nice person. But that's nothing to do with you. She's like, oh, okay. She's just very matter of fact, and it's. It's just funny how adaptable kids are. Friends of hers very innocently ask, you know, so where'd you dad? And she's like, oh, I don't have one. I don't have one. When they do father's day things at school, she makes things for her brother.

[Andrea Gunning]

Tina and her two children have a strong little family unit. But now that's not their entire family, Because Tina and Wendy decided to tell their kids about each other. When Wendy told her daughters, One of.

[Tina Maia]

The things that the older daughter did. Did say was that she wanted to meet her sister.

[Andrea Gunning]

Tina does worry about her daughter and how the situation will impact her as she grows up. But at the end of the day.

[Tina Maia]

What hurts and what causes damage is the lies, not the truth. I've seen it over and over again that a lot of the children, the people, the victims have all been impacted, Impacted so negatively by this trail of lies upon lies upon lies upon lies. And the best way to combat that is by absolute truth. And my daughter will have a source of truth about her situation. She wasn't abandoned and it's not her fault. This is what he does. This is a him problem.

[Andrea Gunning]

We end all of our episodes with the same question. Why did you want to tell your story? Tina has a really specific reason. She wants to warn anyone who's just met Neil Lahman.

[Tina Maia]

If I can help one person avoid that pain, avoid going through this situation or to get out before it's something devastating, if I can help one of the mothers out there to feel not alone, that overcomes all of his darkness, all of his lies, I think that that can only be a positive thing.

[Andrea Gunning]

On the next episode of Betrayal.

[Tina Maia]

That evening, one of the strangest things happened. I looked in the mirror and I said out loud that he's not coming home. And I thought, my God, am I being dramatic? Of course he's going to be home. And I dismissed it.

[Andrea Gunning]

If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your Betrayal story, email [e-mail] that's betrayalpodmail.com we're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a little long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Monique Laborde, also produced by Ben Federman. Associate producers are Kristin Melchiori and Kaitlyn Golden. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krynczyk. Audio editing and mixing by Matt D'Alvecchio additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Baines Music Library, provided by My Music and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get.

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[Andrea Gunning]

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