Mackenzie | Betrayal Weekly

Summary

Betrayal: Weekly — Mackenzie | Betrayal Weekly

Podcast: Betrayal: Weekly
Host: Andrea Gunning
Episode: Mackenzie | Betrayal Weekly
Date: November 6, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of Betrayal: Weekly features the harrowing account of Mackenzie, whose trusting relationships with her sister Lee and close friend Amy were upended by a catfishing scheme that spanned years. The episode explores how deceit can fester in friendship and family, the psychological aftermath of such betrayal, and the journey toward healing. It’s also a cautionary tale about authenticity in the digital age.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Mackenzie, Lee, and Amy

• Mackenzie and Lee are sisters with a tight bond, spending their childhood as best friends ([04:08]).
• Amy, originally a teammate of Lee’s, becomes Mackenzie’s coworker and best friend ([14:41], [18:58]).
• The sisters enter long-distance online relationships with two “cousins,” Matt (Mackenzie’s boyfriend) and Ryan (Lee’s boyfriend), whom they met via Facebook through mutual friend Amy ([06:34], [07:30]).

2. The Online Relationships & Escalating Tension

• Both sisters are quickly swept into intense, long-distance relationships. The emotional investments deepen even though repeated plans to meet in person are canceled with elaborate excuses (Ryan's mom's illness, etc.) ([09:16], [12:23]).
• Amy plays a supportive role, helping Mackenzie get a job, spending time with the sisters, and facilitating gifts supposedly from the boyfriends ([14:41], [09:57]).
• Over time, Lee’s relationship spirals into dysfunction, leading her to withdraw from her social life and rely heavily on Mackenzie and Amy ([12:53], [21:17]).
• Amy starts to display intrusive behavior, often meddling in the sisters’ relationships and asking probing questions about Lee and Ryan ([21:47], [22:23]).

3. The Seeds of Doubt and Discovery

• The sisters, with encouragement from the boyfriends, watch the documentary “Catfish,” still believing their relationships are legitimate ([23:31]).
  • Quote:
    “We’re watching Catfish together. We’re like, I couldn’t even imagine if that happened to us. That would be devastating.” — Mackenzie ([23:59])
• A friend of Mackenzie’s notices that when she texts Matt, Amy’s phone vibrates at the same time, raising suspicions ([26:49]).
• Mackenzie connects the dots—gifts received always handed over by Amy, duplicate handmade items, and photos from “Ryan” being directly obtained at Mackenzie's work sites ([27:45], [28:14]).

4. The Catfish Unravels

• Mackenzie gathers evidence and uncovers that Amy is likely impersonating both Matt and Ryan. She confronts her sister Lee with her findings ([28:31], [35:09]).
  • Quote:
    “I just was like, yeah, I think Amy is Matt.” — Mackenzie ([28:14])
  • Quote:
    “I called Lee right away, and I told her. And when we got home and I was telling my parents, Lee was basically just sitting on the couch, not really having a reaction...‘No, I’m talking with Ryan. He’s real. Maybe Matt’s her, but Ryan’s real.’” — Mackenzie ([35:09])
• The sisters confront Amy at her home. Amy admits Matt isn’t real but continues to insist Ryan is ([36:59]).
  • Quote:
    “Amy finally came out after half an hour and said that Matt isn’t real. Matt is my friend Sam, but Ryan is real. Looks Lee straight in the eye: I swear to you, he is real. I touched him.” — Mackenzie ([36:59])

5. Aftermath: Emotional Fallout and Slow Healing

• Lee continues to believe Ryan is real, straining the sisterly bond ([39:13]).
• Mackenzie’s attempt to involve the police is fruitless; authorities state that no crime was committed unless social insurance numbers or identities are stolen ([39:35]).
• Lee moves away, never admitting the truth; the sisters’ relationship is forever altered ([40:13], [41:54]).
  • Quote:
    “She just wasn't Lee anymore. I was mad at her for a very long time. Now we're better, but we’re just not the same.” — Mackenzie ([41:54])

6. Amy’s Belated Confession

• A decade later, Amy sends an audio confession, claiming her actions were rooted in internalized homophobia ([45:55]):
  • Quote:
    “She says, ‘It was me. It was always me. I did it. I’m sorry… I was struggling with internalized homophobia, and that’s why I did the things I did.’” — Mackenzie ([45:55])
• Mackenzie vehemently rejects Amy’s justification, interpreting it as manipulation rather than accountability ([46:58]).
  • Quote:
    “You're giving yourself an out to explain the shitty things you did. I'm not manipulating other people… I barely have a friendship with my sister, and it’s all because of what she decided to do. For three years.” — Mackenzie ([46:58])
• Amy’s apology feels self-serving, another attempt at control ([47:47]).

7. Moving Forward: Resilience and Growth

• Lee and Mackenzie ultimately build fulfilling lives. Lee finds happiness with a husband and kids; Mackenzie embraces her authentic self and comes out as gay ([44:15], [44:41]).
  • Quote:
    “It was the opening of—okay, I can be me now. I had my first girlfriend, fell in love.” — Mackenzie ([44:57])
• Mackenzie seeks therapy, reflecting on how betrayal can foster growth and greater empathy ([42:20]).
  • Quote:
    “I needed that help because I was angry. I was trying to desensitize myself from this story and put together what the hell just happened.” — Mackenzie ([42:25])
• She ends the interview with a message of hope for listeners ([48:52]):
  • Quote:
    “I want people to know that regardless of the betrayal you go through, I feel like if you’re willing to do therapy and you’re willing to look at yourself on a deeper level, it can make you a better person and funnier because you have more trauma.” — Mackenzie ([48:52])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We’re watching Catfish together. We’re like, I couldn’t even imagine if that happened to us. That would be devastating.” — Mackenzie ([23:59])
• “I just was like, yeah, I think Amy is Matt.” — Mackenzie ([28:14])
• “I said, I can’t believe you could watch my sister fall into this deep depression for two years, lose all of that... her friends.” — Mackenzie ([34:36])
• “Amy finally came out... said that Matt isn't real. Matt is my friend Sam, but Ryan is real. Looks Lee straight in the eye: I swear to you, he is real. I touched him.” — Mackenzie ([36:59])
• “She just wasn’t Lee anymore. I was mad at her for a very long time. Now we’re better, obviously, but we’re just not the same.” — Mackenzie ([41:54])
• “She says, ‘It was me. It was always me. I did it. I’m sorry… I was struggling with internalized homophobia, and that’s why I did the things I did.’” — Mackenzie ([45:55])
• “You’re giving yourself an out to explain the shitty things you did… I barely have a friendship with my sister, and it’s all because of what she decided to do. For three years.” — Mackenzie ([46:58])
• “I want people to know that regardless of the betrayal you go through, I feel like if you’re willing to do therapy and you’re willing to look at yourself on a deeper level, it can make you a better person...” — Mackenzie ([48:52])

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Sisterly Bond and Childhood (04:08–05:54)
• Beginnings of Online Relationships (06:34–08:39)
• Amy and Mackenzie’s Friendship (14:41–19:39)
• Tensions and Red Flags (21:17–23:14)
• Catfish Documentary & Heightened Doubt (23:31–25:00)
• Discovery and Confrontation (27:23–37:39)
• Emotional Fallout (39:13–41:54)
• Amy’s Audio Confession (45:55–47:44)
• Message to Listeners — Resilience (48:52–49:29)

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Tone & Language

The episode is delivered with candor and empathy. Mackenzie’s retelling is raw, sharp, and self-aware, often laced with humor and biting honesty even as she recounts trauma. Host Andrea Gunning maintains a supportive, reflective tone, inviting deeper insight and broader lessons for listeners throughout.

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Summary

This episode tells a striking modern-day cautionary tale of trust shattered by digital deception—how an intimate friend’s betrayal nearly destroyed sisterly bonds, and what it means to reclaim love, trust, and one’s sense of self in the aftermath. Mackenzie’s journey, though marked by heartbreak and loss, is ultimately one of resilience, healing, and the discovery of authentic identity.

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If you or someone you know is dealing with betrayal or manipulative relationships, Mackenzie’s story encourages seeking support, trusting your instincts, and finding growth through vulnerability and honesty.

Transcript

[Mackenzie]

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[Mackenzie]

I literally just saw red. I started crying and kept saying, I can't believe it. I can't believe it. There's no way. There's no way. And the first thing I do is get my phone. And I probably said like, I fucking hate you or something like that. What she replies back is, where are you right now? Not what are you talking about?

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal. A show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything.

[Mackenzie]

I can go to a wedding. Who? I don't know. I cry first. Dances With Dads Dead.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

That's Mackenzie. She's the kind of person who has a hard exterior, but is a big softie on the inside.

[Mackenzie]

I'm on the floor so big baby I just love, love.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

And she has a story unlike any we've ever heard. It starts as the story of two sisters, MacKenzie and her older sister who were calling Lee.

[Mackenzie]

She was my very best friend, shared a bedroom. We would dance and sing to Backstreet Boys and NSYNC all the time.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

As kids, Mackenzie and Lee did everything together.

[Mackenzie]

We were attached at the hip for a long time. She used to make me come to her sleepovers because she would get homesick. So me as an 8 year old would be coming along to these like cool preteen sleepovers with all of her best friends.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Even though MacKenzie was three years younger.

[Mackenzie]

Than Lee, I was the bigger little sister, so I was taller than Lee. I acted like the older sibling so I would take care of her.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

For a while, Mackenzie tried to be just like her older sister.

[Mackenzie]

She had so many friends and all of her friends were pretty and she had so many guy friends and so many guys liked her. So I just always wanted to be in her realm, to see how does she do it. Because I couldn't figure out for the life of me how to connect with men. So I'm watching her with boys. I was, oh, I gotta watch my big sister.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

But as they grew up, Mackenzie became her own person.

[Mackenzie]

I was a tomboy. I don't want to wear a dress. I was very athletic and very good at softball. My goal at that point was, I'm going to get a scholarship, go to school in the States. And then I wanted to try to get to the Olympics with Team Canada.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Softball became Mackenzie's life. Her sister played too but she didn't take it as seriously as Mackenzie.

[Mackenzie]

She played high level, so she had tournaments and stuff, but she was a huge, huge partier in high school.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

MacKenzie was three years younger. They were in different stages of their life.

[Mackenzie]

Lee's off getting drunk in a field somewhere, and I'm the one that's like, can I have $20 to go to the movies on Friday?

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Lee was cool, but she wasn't too cool to have her younger sister around.

[Mackenzie]

This is my cool sister. Like, she's graduated and we're listening to Lose that by Eminem on the car and our Toyota Echo.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

After Lee graduated from high school, she moved in with her boyfriend and then.

[Mackenzie]

He cheated on her. So she ends up moving back home.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

It was the early 2000s and Facebook was brand new. Everyone was navigating social media for the first time.

[Mackenzie]

And of course, Lee's pretty, so she had something upwards, like 2,000 friends. And I remember Lee came to me. It was like, oh, I'm talking to this guy that added me on Facebook.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Lee showed Mackenzie a photo of the guy who had reached out to her. His name was Ryan.

[Mackenzie]

He was very good looking and muscular. Kind of a buzz cut, dark eyes, really nice smile, ripped. All that kind of stuff when you're 19, turning 20, you're looking for.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

But it wasn't just about Ryan's looks. Lee had been sharing her writing on Facebook and he had taken the time to read it.

[Mackenzie]

She's like, he messaged me saying he really clicked with my poetry and he really liked was sweet.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Mackenzie looked at Ryan's Facebook profile and noticed that they had a shared mutual friend. Lee's softball teammate Amy.

[Mackenzie]

And I was like, oh, well, did you talk to Amy and Lee? She's like, yeah, actually she texted me and said, oh, how do you know Ryan? And obviously Lee's like, well, I don't. He had me on Facebook.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

It was reassuring for Lee to talk to somebody that knew Ryan in real life.

[Mackenzie]

Amy's like, oh, when I was in Calgary, he was living there and we worked together for like a year. And he's one of my really good friends. He's such a good guy.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Lee and Ryan started talking. They got along really well and would spend hours each day messaging back and forth. Even though they lived in different cities, they found creative ways to have long distance dates within a few months.

[Mackenzie]

They are literally Facebook official. They both have it on their Facebook.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

In December of 2009, MacKenzie was going through her first real breakup. Lee encouraged her to get back on the dating scene.

[Mackenzie]

Lee's like, oh, Ryan wants to talk to you. I'm like, why does he want to talk to me? He's like, I don't know. He says he has a cousin that you'd really like. And I'm like, oh, okay.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Ryan reached out to Mackenzie to vouch for his cousin.

[Mackenzie]

You guys would really get along. He really likes baseball, all this kind of stuff. And I'm like, okay, if you're vouching for him, Ryan's a great guy, so I'm gonna listen.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Mackenzie decided to give this guy a shot. His name was Matt. He and Ryan both lived on the east coast of Canada, which was far away from the sisters.

[Mackenzie]

So it wasn't like, just get in the car and drive here. It was airplane 6 and reflect type of deal.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

After dating long distance for months, Ryan started planning his first trip to visit Lee.

[Mackenzie]

He was supposed to come Christmas Eve, so we were looking forward to meeting him. My parents were like, okay with him staying here. But then four days before, he messages Lee and tells her that he can't come.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Ryan's mom had cancer and her health had started declining. He was no longer willing to miss Christmas with her.

[Mackenzie]

Lee is beside herself. She's absolutely heartbroken because this was going to be their first meeting.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Ryan felt horrible for canceling the trip too. He had a special Christmas gift planned for Lee, and in order to make sure it got to her on time, he solicited the help of their mutual friend Amy.

[Mackenzie]

Christmas Eve rolls around, and Amy shows up with this box, hands it to Lee, and it's a build a bear. And in the card, it says, because I can't be there, this is my replacement. Like, hug him and sleep with him. So that night on, she's sleeping with despair every single night.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

As Lee and her boyfriend Ryan got more serious, Mackenzie was starting to develop a crush on his cousin Matt. He'd become a part of her daily life.

[Mackenzie]

He was always, you know, messaging me every morning, making sure I got up, and pushing me to go to my practices and stuff like that. And then we would. We'd talk baseball because he was a Yankees fan, I'm a Blue Jays fan. So we would kind of trip each other about baseball a lot.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

But Matt wanted their relationship to be deeper than just chatting about sports.

[Mackenzie]

It just kind of slowly turned into, like, him kind of saying, I want to date you. I want to be with you.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Mackenzie felt the same way, but she really wanted to meet him in person before they made things official.

[Mackenzie]

I am very big on face to face interaction. I need to have that connection before I can say, we can be boyfriend and girlfriend type deal.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

MacKenzie was cautious, but Matt was really making an effort, and that meant a lot to her. Their jokes and sports banter turned to deeper conversations and a real connection, validating.

[Mackenzie]

My feelings and making sure I feel heard. And he would call me babe and baby and all that kind of stuff.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Matt and Ryan hung out a lot and sent the girls photos of their adventures. Hiking together, spending time with family, or just small moments in their daily routines. Their friend Amy was happy her matchmaking skills had been such a success.

[Mackenzie]

Amy is talking with Lee sporadically, checking in on how her and Ryan are doing and that kind of stuff.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Plus, it was kind of fun for MacKenzie and Lee to be dating cousins.

[Mackenzie]

Me and Lee would say, we're watching a movie, and then we have Matt and Ryan pressing play on the same time.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

They'd watch rom coms together. It was sweet, but Lee and Mackenzie were growing tired of the long distance. They would try to plan visits with Matt and Ryan, but it never seemed to be the right time.

[Mackenzie]

It was just always, no, you know, this. My mom's immune compromise. You can't come here. There's no place for you to stay. Right now I'm trying to figure out stuff with my mom. I have classes too often. I'm going to be working too much. I'm like, holy shit, they have such a hard life. And then, well, I'm such a bad person for trying to put my feelings first.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Lee had never had an online relationship before. It was taking a toll on her.

[Mackenzie]

It was endless of her drinking, coming home and she crying, and she's coming into my bedroom and she's talking about, oh, she's fighting with Ryan, and it's her, you know, missing shifts at work. Her friends are now very few and far between. They don't believe that you can fall in love with somebody over the Internet. So Lee is now, at this point, you know, she's losing her best friend. She's losing her friend group, the people that she usually turns to. I now heard best friend because I'm in a similar circumstance.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

The whole situation brought the sisters closer together. MacKenzie was at a crossroads. She was graduating high school and thinking about her future. Mackenzie had spent her whole life working towards a career as a professional softball player. And now she was debating if that was the right choice.

[Mackenzie]

I just kind of. I got to the point where I didn't want to be. Just that's what my identity was. Because my identity, that's all people associated me with MacKenzie. Just plays softball. That's what she does.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

So MacKenzie made a hard decision. She decided not to go to college.

[Mackenzie]

I'm not going to take any of my scholarships.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

If she wasn't in school, she would need a job. When she was lost on what to do, Matt had an idea.

[Mackenzie]

Matt let me know that Amy works for a construction company and she can probably get me a job.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Amy worked in construction and Matt did too. He told Mackenzie more about how the industry worked.

[Mackenzie]

I was like, oh yeah, that's totally up my alley. Different every day you're going to different job sites and all that kind of stuff. So I was like, yeah, perfect. Matt says, hey, just give her a text and she can probably get you a job.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

She texted Amy and submitted her resume. Two weeks later, she was hired for the job.

[Mackenzie]

My first day too. I was super nervous. Amy offered to come on a day off. Introduced me to everybody that worked there. Day was like, wow, she's really down to earth. She's really chill, you know, she's a tomboy like me, very easy to talk to, funny, that kind of stuff. I can't believe she would go out of her way to try to make me feel comfortable. That's really nice of her. From that point on, we became best friends pretty quickly.

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[Mackenzie]

We worked together almost every day. She'd come over to our house a lot. She was very funny and she was very outgoing and just easy to be around. She would come over, we'd watch Jersey Shore every Thursday together. Jersdays, you know, fist bumps, push ups, chapstick. It was the best. And her and I like I could just be me and she was the same. So we fed off each other. You just have two friggin weird People together, and that's a vibe.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Amy never really dated anyone. When Mackenzie asked her about it, she explained that it was because of her faith.

[Mackenzie]

She's like, I just. I'm Christian and literally wearing a purity ring. Like Jonas Brothers stuff. Shout out to Jonas Brothers. And she. But she had a cross on. She was like, that's just how I was raised.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

But Mackenzie liked sharing her love life with Amy, especially because Amy knew her boyfriend.

[Mackenzie]

He was my kind of outlet. Being like, why is Matt being crazy today? I need you to talk to him. Or same with Lee.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Mackenzie and Matt's relationship was steady, but Lee and Ryan were really struggling with the distance because Ryan still hadn't come to visit.

[Mackenzie]

Every other day, they're arguing like, why aren't you coming here? And, you know, my mom's sick. You know, I was in a car accident. You know, Matt's not doing well. It was very much telling Lee, why are you making me feel bad when my life is in shambles and you're supposed to to be supporting me? You're supposed to be my better half.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

For MacKenzie's 19th birthday, Lee and Amy decided to take her out to a bar to celebrate. But as soon as they got there.

[Mackenzie]

Lee is arguing with Ryan. Even on my birthday, they're bbming each other. He's getting mad at her that she's drinking, saying she's drinking too much. Amy's being super weird.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Mackenzie chalked it up to the fact that Amy didn't drink.

[Mackenzie]

She's like, I need to leave. And I'm kind of like, we just got here. I just had my second beer. She left my birthday. And then the whole night, Lee and Ryan are arguing.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

The relationship between Lee and Ryan was just plain unhealthy.

[Mackenzie]

Lee is now not going out with her friends. Her friends didn't get the online relationship. Why she was adamant that she had to be with this man. This was her be all end all. She's not leaving her room. I can hear her crying herself to sleep most nights. I can hear she'll send videos to him of her crying and yelling and stuff like that.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Mackenzie would talk to Amy about her and Lee's relationship issues, but often Amy would side with the guys.

[Mackenzie]

I'm at work, and Amy's being weird and super angry, and I'm like, what is wrong? I understand Ryan's your best friend, but you don't need to involve yourself that much. Into their arguments would be talking with Matt, and I would say something and it would piss him off. And sure enough, Amy's Giving me the, you know, the cold shoulder. And it just was like this cycle of toxicity.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Amy couldn't help but get involved in their relationships, especially Lee and Ryan's.

[Mackenzie]

We would be on a drive, and then Amy would just turn to me and be like, so your sister and Ryan are fighting? And I'm like, when are they not fighting? And she's like, yeah, what has your sister said about Ryan? Like, what does she feel? And I'm like, she's in love with him. I don't think it really matters. Well, I think. I think it does matter. And I'm like, well, it's not your relationships. I don't. I don't understand why you're asking this. Well, is she talking to any guys when she goes out? And I'm like, no, I don't see it. She's. Well, you go with her sometimes. You go to the bars. I'm like, I don't think it matters, Amy. Like, we're literally. We're going to get. We're going to sound 11. We're getting Slurpees, and we're getting a two dollar candy bag. We don't need to worry about that this right now.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

It was weird how Amy would involve herself, but Mackenzie tried to ignore it at this point in their friendship. It was 2010. A documentary came out that everybody was talking about. Ryan recommended it to Lee.

[Mackenzie]

It was called Catfish, and we never heard the term.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

These days, catfishing stories feel like a part of the zeitgeist. But back in 2010, this was a brand new concept.

[Mackenzie]

Facebook's fresh out the gate. We all are kind of getting used to what's going on. Instagram's not even out yet. You trust that everyone is who they say they are.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Mackenzie was curious about the Catfish documentary.

[Mackenzie]

I had talked to Matt, and Matt's like, yeah, I watch it. It's a really good movie. I think it's something you guys should watch to put your mind at ease about us. We have Amy then saying, oh, we can watch it together. So now it's me, Lee, and Amy, and we're watching Catfish together. We're like, I couldn't even imagine if that happened to us. That would be devastating. Lee is just like, I'm so glad I found the love of my life that I'm gonna marry and have kids with. And I'm glad he told us to watch this movie together. I would be absolutely mortified if that ever happened to me. I can't believe he didn't see this on.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

At first, it was fun. That mackenzie and Lee's boyfriends were cousins and that their best friend Amy, knew the guys, too. All of her favorite people knew each other. But as time went on, Mackenzie started to feel like she was stuck in the middle of a complicated web. As Lee's relationship with Ryan got worse, it became too much drama for mackenzie.

[Mackenzie]

Lee's fighting with Ryan, and then Ryan's trying to talk to me because he wants me to, you know, calm her down. And then I have Matt talking to me, saying, this is really bad for Lee and Ryan. You need to help. And then I have freaking Amy also being like, ryan told me they're fighting, and I'm like, I can't do this anymore.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

So In January of 2011, MacKenzie broke up with Matt. She told Lee that she needed space from the whole situation, Especially her sister's toxic relationship.

[Mackenzie]

When I stopped talking to Matt, I think that was really, really hard on her, because at this point, I just can't listen to it. And so now, you know, she's alone in this.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Essentially, Mackenzie saw the damage that Lee's relationship with Ryan was causing. She hardly recognized her vibrant, outgoing older sister.

[Mackenzie]

It just progressively was just her shutting herself off from the rest of the world. You can see her just deteriorating. She got really, really, really skinny, and it just was. Yeah, it's heartbreaking.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Mackenzie wasn't in a rush to be in another relationship. Matt, on the other hand, wasted no time finding a new girl.

[Mackenzie]

One of my best friends approached me, and she said, hey, I just want to let you know that Matt has messaged me, and are you okay if we start talking? And I was like, you know what, girl? If you want that freaking bag of worms, you want all that drama, all the power to you, sister. So they started talking.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

But after a few months, mackenzie's friend noticed something weird about her conversations with. With Matt.

[Mackenzie]

She brought up the fact that when her and Amy hang out and she would text Matt, it seemed like Amy's phone was going off. It would vibrate when he was messaging Matt. I kind of brushed it off. I said, honestly, I think it might just be a coincidence. Her and Matt and Ryan are always talking, talking. Amy's also, he's talking to me. It's probably just that kind of thing. And she's like, yay, Right?

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

But later that night, doubt started to creep into mackenzie's mind. For the first time, she let herself consider the question, what if Matt and Ryan weren't real? As she thought back on their relationship, little details that seem. Seemed like nothing at the time all started to add up all the gifts.

[Mackenzie]

We'Ve gotten our hand given to us from Amy. Never in the mail, never got an address. And then I had a blanket that was handmade from Matt. And Amy has the same exact handmade blanket that she made Matt. Ryan also also work for a construction company that is exactly the same as what Amy and I did.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Finally, it all clicked.

[Mackenzie]

I just was like, yeah, I think Amy is Matt.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Could this be true? Were the sisters talking to Amy the entire time? Could Amy have invented not one, but two fake boyfriends? MacKenzie needed proof.

[Mackenzie]

Now Mackenzie is a detective and I am all over this.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Mackenzie knew that Ryan would often send Lee photos of the construction sites he worked at.

[Mackenzie]

I ended up messaging Lee and I said, if he sends you any photos of job sites he's at, please send them to me.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Ryan worked in construction all the way across the country in eastern Canada. If he was really who he said he was, Mackenzie should have no way of recognizing the sights. But if it was really Amy, this could be Mackenzie's chance to catch her in a lie. And finally, she got a clue. Lee forwarded a photo Ryan had sent her. He said it was from one of his work sites.

[Mackenzie]

And it's this picture of this really, really high end bar of a really, really nice house. The light fixtures super unique. You'll never see it in any other type of house. I texted Lee and I said, oh, did Ryan send you this today? And she goes, oh, yeah, he just sent it to me. He said he wants to put that in our house. He's going to build it for me. And so what I do is I take that photo. And there's one person that I work with that I told you my suspicions up. And so I emailed it to her and I said, you're working with Amy today. Is this the site you're at? And my co worker sends me back, I'm so sorry, Mackenzie. I saw Amy sit down, take a photo of that light fixture and talk about how much she liked it and how she wants it in her future house one day.

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[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

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[Mackenzie]

And my coworker sends me back. I'm so sorry, Mackenzie. I saw Amy sit down, take a photo of that light fixture and talk about how much she liked it and how she wants it in her future house.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

One day, Mackenzie was mad.

[Mackenzie]

I literally just saw red. I started crying and kept saying, I can't believe it. I can't believe it. There's no way.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

She grabbed her phone and texted Amy.

[Mackenzie]

I said, I can't believe you could watch my sister fall into this deep depression for two years, lose all of that. Her friends.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Amy responded right away.

[Mackenzie]

What she replies back is, where are you right now? I'm coming to see you. And I'm like, oh, no, no, no. I don't want to see you.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Next, Mackenzie called her sister. She had to break the news that her boyfriend, who she had been in love with for years, was actually their friend Amy, hiding behind a screen.

[Mackenzie]

I called Lee right away, and I told her. And when we got home and I was telling my parents, Lee was basically just sitting on the couch, not really having a reaction. And she was like, no, I'm talking. I'm talking with Ryan. He's real. Maybe Matt's her, but Ryan's real.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Mackenzie was stunned. She was not prepared for this reaction.

[Mackenzie]

And I'm like, lee, what are you talking about? It's all here. You can't have Matt without the other that. Like, what do you mean? I was so mad because I'm giving you the reasoning of why we haven't seen these people.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Finally, they had answers, but Lee didn't want to hear them.

[Mackenzie]

Nobody could say anything to her. She'd be like, no, that's just not true. Because she was so infatuated, in love with this man. They've talked about their wedding. They have their names of their kids picked out.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Lee felt so far away. Nothing Mackenzie said seemed to reach her. She was used to sharing everything with her older sister. Lee was the only person who understood every inch of her world. But in that moment, it felt like they were on different planets.

[Mackenzie]

Which kind of began the deterioration of our friendship. Me and my sister was how angry I was and how she continued to believe that this individual was a real person.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Mackenzie knew that in order for her sister to come to terms with the truth, Lee would need to hear it from Amy herself. So they decided to confront Amy at her home.

[Mackenzie]

Amy wouldn't come out of the house. We Met with her mom, and her mom had no idea who Matt and Ryan are, even though she said that Matt and Ryan know her mom and all this stuff. Amy finally came out after half an hour and said that Matt isn't real. Matt is my friend Sam, but Ryan is real. Looks Lee straight in the eye. I swear to you, he is real. I touched him.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Mackenzie was fuming. Amy had spent years tricking her and her sister into falling in love with guys that didn't exist. She had controlled their lives, manipulated their emotions, caused Lee's health to deteriorate. And now, when they had proof of her betrayal, she was still standing in front of them and denying it.

[Mackenzie]

I looked at Amy and I said, so your friend Sam started talking to me as a joke? And she said, yeah. And I said, and you knew he was talking to me as. As a joke? And she said, yes. And I'm like, and you knew I was going through depression and getting diagnosed with anxiety? And she said, yes. And I said, and you thought that would be funny? And she said, well, I didn't know you. And I said, even if I didn't know you, I wouldn't allow someone to do that to you.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Mackenzie gave Amy one last chance to tell the full truth.

[Mackenzie]

I asked her, I want you to look me in the eye and tell me that Ryan is real. And Amy looked me in the eye and said, yes. And that day, I basically walked out of her house. And I said to Lee that if she ever admits this, one day she had her chance to tell us, like, she's in love with you, Lee. Lee's like, you know, Mackenzie, she told you, Matt isn't real. It's somebody else, so just get over it. No, Ryan's real.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Lee's response was devastating.

[Mackenzie]

I found out months later, six months later, that she was still talking with Ryan after she told me she wasn't. And I just want to pick her up and shake her. I'm like, how can you not see this?

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Mackenzie and her parents went to the police hoping that they could do something to stop Amy.

[Mackenzie]

We saw an officer, and basically it was just, are they using, like, sin numbers, which is social insurance numbers? It's like, no. It's like, well, they're not technically stealing an identity. They're just using their photos, so it's not a crime. And my parents are just like, well, she's going to keep doing this. She's obviously going to keep talking to people and hurting people's lives. And, you know, and they're like, all we can say is, like, don't add people you don't know and don't talk to them.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Shortly after that, Lee moved to Toronto.

[Mackenzie]

Basically, she ran away.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

To this day, Lee's never admitted that Ryan wasn't real.

[Mackenzie]

In reality, Lee fell in love. You want to choose to believe that the people that you end up loving are good. And choosing to believe it is easier than accepting the fact that you've been talking to somebody who is not real for the past three years, who you've fallen in love with, who's actually a woman who you may or may not have sent pictures and other text messages.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

What was especially disturbing was that the betrayal wasn't committed at random or by a stranger. The person that did this was Mackenzie's best friend.

[Mackenzie]

This was somebody who was in my house every single day. Somebody who I told all my secrets about. You know, like I told her how I felt with men and my insecurities and I had intimacy issues with men and I was afraid of whatever, and so she knows all this.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Mackenzie felt so alone. The only person that could possibly understand what she was going through was refusing.

[Mackenzie]

To talk about it, trying to talk with my sister. I wanted to talk about it and she wanted to put it in a pretty box and put it in the closet. I'm your little sister. We're supposed to be best friends. You're supposed to help me. We're supposed to help each other. And instead you ran away and you chose to not talk about it.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Amy caused long lasting damage to Lee and the sister's friendship.

[Mackenzie]

You watch the person you idolized so much. And after everything kind of happened, it was. She just wasn't Lee anymore. I was mad at her for a very long time. Now we're better, obviously, but we're just not the same. We're just our friendship. That relationship hasn't been the same since everything happened.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Mackenzie reached out for support and started going to therapy.

[Mackenzie]

I needed that help because I was angry. I was trying to desensitize myself from this story and put together what the hell just happened.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Looking back now, Mackenzie can see why Amy's catfishing was so convincing. She had created two characters, Matt and Ryan, who were always confirming each other's stories. If one of them said they were hiking, the girls would get sent photos of Matt and Ryan together on a hike, just like they said. There was no reason to doubt it because the idea of creating a scheme with multiple fake people seemed so far fetched.

[Mackenzie]

Once Matt was brought into it, it made it seem more real. That's too many people too. You know what I mean? I don't know how to explain that.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Mackenzie never found out who the guys in the photos were, but she suspects that they were real cousins or even brothers who had public social media profiles. And Amy must have been stealing their pictures without their knowledge.

[Mackenzie]

I still have photos of them. I've reverse image searched all of them and I can't find anything.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Amy introduced these characters at a time when both Lee and Mackenzie really needed someone to talk to.

[Mackenzie]

Matt and Ryan started talking to both of us at a very vulnerable time. Lee is very heartbroken from her previous relationship being cheated on. I'm in kind of the same boat, but also I'm going through depression and anxiety, and I obviously don't know how to wrap my head around that.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

But this story doesn't end here, because 10 years later, the sisters both found ways to move forward and heal. Lee eventually built the life she'd always dreamed of.

[Mackenzie]

Lee's doing great. She meets a guy. She has too little kids, know little boy and a little girl, and they are absolutely adorable, and I love them so very much. She's thriving as a mom, and her husband is one of my favorite people of all time. He's hilarious.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

And Mackenzie built a life she genuinely loved, too. It started when she realized she liked girls.

[Mackenzie]

It was like, yeah, okay. I've never actually kissed a girl before. Kissed her. And then I remember being like, oh. Oh, that's what it's supposed to feel like.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

She finally felt authentically herself.

[Mackenzie]

It was the opening of okay, I can be me now. I had my first girlfriend, fell in love. Then we Fast forward to 2023. I'm out living my best life, and my first friend from back when everything happened sends me a DM on Instagram.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

MacKenzie was surprised to hear from her. She opened the message just basically saying.

[Mackenzie]

Hey, you know, I know we don't talk anymore, but I. I've watched all your pictures and your videos, and I'm just so proud of you. You look so happy. And I just said, oh, that's great. Hope you're doing well. And she goes, I actually messaged you because I got a message from Amy a couple weeks ago.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Amy had reached out to Mackenzie's friend with a voice memo confession. Mackenzie's friend sent her the file.

[Mackenzie]

And I play it and I hear Amy's voice, and she says, it was me. It was always me. I did it. I'm sorry. And then she says, I was struggling with internalized homophobia, and that's why I did the things I did. I Just was like, are you joking?

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Internalized homophobia is when society's homophobia causes a queer person to feel shame, guilt, or even. Even self hatred about their own identity. Amy was essentially saying that she had created fake straight relationships with the sisters because she didn't feel like she could come out as gay and be herself. At the time, Mackenzie knew how harmful internalized homophobia could be because she experienced it herself for years. But it wasn't an excuse to catfish and harm people.

[Mackenzie]

You're giving yourself an out to explain the shitty things you did. I'm not going to my friend's house pretending to be other people. I'm not manipulating other people into, you know, doing X, Y and Z. I'm not gaslighting people into talking to these people that aren't real. I'm not sleeping over at my friend's house trying to cuddle them. And the night while they're talking to this fake person that's actually me. No. I barely have a friendship with my sister. And it's all because of what she decided to do. For three years.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Amy's apology didn't feel genuine.

[Mackenzie]

She did this because she wanted to. She did this because she likes to manipulate. She did this because she likes the control. She took advantage of young girls that had just broken up with their significant others that were vulnerable and preyed upon them. We've all moved on. And that whole apology, you're doing it to see if you can still affect our lives. You want to see if you still have that hold.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

In the end, Amy has to live with what she did. But she doesn't have power over Mackenzie and Lee anymore. Mackenzie has moved on. She processed Amy's betrayal, but she didn't let it paralyze her. She hasn't stopped trusting people.

[Mackenzie]

When I love, I love with all of me, I don't hold back. I don't hide the fact that I am an emotional person. I'm a great friend. I think I'm a great sister. I think, you know, I just love people, good people.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

We end every weekly episode with the same question. Why do you want to share your story?

[Mackenzie]

I chose to write in because everybody's on social media. Everybody has a phone. Betrayal can be on so many different levels. And I want people to know that regardless of the betrayal you go through, I feel like if you're willing to do therapy and you're willing to look at yourself in a deeper level, it can make you a better person and funnier because you have more trauma.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

On the next episode of Betrayal Weekly there's this feeling that mums are good.

[Mackenzie]

No matter what. Mums are good and even if they.

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

Do the wrong thing, it's because they.

[Mackenzie]

Love you so much. If you need to accept the lie to live, then you accept the lie, right?

[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team or want to tell us your Betrayal story, email [e-mail] that's betrayalpodmail.com or follow us on Instagram betrayalpod. You can also connect connect with me on Instagram itsandreagunning to access our newsletter, view additional content and connect with the Betrayal community. Join our [e-mail] we're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Olivia Hewitt and Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Casting support from Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krynczyk. Audio editing on this episode episode by Dean Welsh Mixing and mastering by Dave Sayyap Additional audio editing by Tanner Robbins Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines Music Library provided by Mib Music and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Andrea Gunning (Host/Narrator)]

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[Mackenzie]

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[Mackenzie]

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[Mackenzie]

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