Not Alone | EP 7 | Saskia's Story

Summary

Betrayal Season 5, Episode 7: "Not Alone | Saskia's Story"

Podcast by iHeartPodcasts and Glass Podcasts
Aired: March 12, 2026

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Episode Overview

This powerful episode of Betrayal pivots from Saskia’s ongoing fight for justice to reveal a devastating truth: what happened to her is not unique. Host Andrea Gunning spotlights the larger, emerging crime of intimate partner sexual assault often involving covert drugging and the non-consensual recording and sharing of victims’ images and videos. Through the accounts of four survivors—Saskia, Ember, Natalie, and Stephanie—the show dismantles the myth of the “perfect victim,” explores why these crimes remain hidden, and assembles a survivor roundtable to discuss the need for community, systemic failures, and healing.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Waking Up to a Hidden Crime (02:35–05:14)

• Connecting Cases Across the Globe:
  Gunning references the infamous French case of Giselle Pellico—her husband drugged and raped her for years, inviting dozens of men to participate. Giselle’s experience helped Saskia realize she wasn’t alone.

  • [03:05, Gunning]: “She never suspected he had anything to do with her symptoms… She only learned the truth when she saw videos of herself being raped.”

• A Growing Pattern:
  Such crimes are now coming to light worldwide, with massive online groups in Germany (70,000+ members on Telegram) and Italy (“Mia Mogli” on Facebook with 32,000+ members) sharing non-consensual images.

• The Road to Visibility:
  Survivors are emerging from the shadows as awareness grows, compelled by headline-making trials and new communities forming online.

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Survivor Stories: Beyond Saskia

Ember’s Story (06:57–18:17)

• The Myth of Strength and the Perfect Relationship:
  • [06:57, Ember]: “Everyone described me as, like, just a very strong individual. … If you’re strong, you’re not going to fall prey to that kind of thing.”
• Red Flags Missed:
  Ember, a devout Christian, believed in abstinence until marriage and trusted her fiancé, John. Trusted by friends, family, and church, no one saw warning signs.
  • [08:20, Ember]: “If there were red flags, this person would point this out. And nobody pulled a red flag out.”
• The Physical and Psychological Toll:
  A year of mysterious symptoms—blackouts, chronic pain, hives, migraines—while John was always “comforting” and present.
• A Breakthrough in Therapy:
  In a massage class, Ember’s body reacts—dissociation—prompting an instructor to urge her to ‘look deeper’.
  • [11:30, Ember]: “She’s like, you were somewhere else. You were not present. … Something’s probably really wrong if your psoas is responding in this way.”
• Waking Up to the Nightmare:
  Ember regains consciousness mid-assault by John, who later confesses to the pastor he’d been drugging and raping her weekly.
  • [15:18, Ember]: “He was drugging me and raping me. The pastor goes, how often has this happened? … This has happened probably once a week almost the whole time we’ve been engaged.”
• Desperate for Normalcy and Disclosure from a Therapist:
  John’s therapist breaks confidentiality to warn Ember:
  • [17:31, Therapist, via Ember]: “He’s not a safe person. He’s officially diagnosed as a sociopath, and you should get as far away from him as possible.”
  • [21:47, Ember]: “But it was a godsend…if I hadn’t heard those words, I think I probably would have assumed that everything was going to be okay for a lot longer.”

Natalie’s Story (22:12–30:50)

• Groomed by a ‘Dream Partner’:
  Natalie describes an idyllic relationship with “Stephen”—her best friend’s older brother, “a dream, dad,” and attentive partner.
  • [23:06, Natalie]: “It was very natural, and it was just easy. I felt like we had a really strong foundation.”
• The Shocking Discovery:
  While resetting her son’s tablet, Natalie finds dozens of graphic images and videos documenting her own sexual abuse—often unconscious and while pregnant.
  • [25:42, Natalie]: “You can see his hands, his wedding ring… I am in these images. I’m just, like, horrified because I’m not awake.”
  • One video was posted online under “creeping around without her knowing.”
• Emotional Collapse and Trapped by Circumstances:
  • [28:03, Natalie]: “I remember shutting down and thinking, like, what am I supposed to do? Like, I work two days a week. He’s a hands-on dad. He’s supporting us. I need his help. What am I going to do?”
• Silent Suffering and Escape:
  It takes Natalie over a year to save secretly before she can leave.
  • [30:50, Natalie]: “I was excited and scared and just really proud and thinking, like, okay, this is gonna be really hard. But I told myself that day, I’m gonna do it. This is mine. … This is the first day of the rest of my life.”

Stephanie’s Story (31:48–34:08)

• The Devastation of Discovery:
  Married 23 years, Stephanie discovers her husband’s Flickr account filled with nude photos of her, posted for voyeuristic strangers.
  • [32:44, Stephanie]: “He explained that he puts the picture up in a chat room. … As they come in and out, these other men are explaining how they would rape me.”
• The Unique Horror of Betrayal by a Loved One:
  • [33:40, Stephanie]: “When you go home at the end of the day and you crawl into bed with the man that you love, that should be the safest place you’ll ever be in the world. I found out that that was the most dangerous place that I had ever been.”
• Losses Beyond Comprehension:
  Stephanie lost not just her husband but job, home, community, trust, and any sense of safety.

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Isolation and Shame: The Universality of the Experience (34:08–35:29)

• Overwhelming Loneliness:
  • [34:38, Survivor]: “Nobody that I knew had been through anything similar. So even though I had all these people around, I still felt so alone and like a freak.”
  • [34:53, Ember]: “It is such an isolating experience to feel like nobody else can relate to what I’ve been through.”

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Survivor Roundtable: Community, Justice, and Healing (38:36–45:01)

Forming a Community

• The Pain of Not Being Believed or Supported:
  • [40:13, Saskia]: “When I did try to reach out for help, I felt like because it was such a unique experience, nobody really wanted to touch it with a ten foot pole.”
  • [40:40, Stephanie]: “It’s like, wow, you did this to the person you’re supposed to love most in the world.”
• Doubting Yourself:
  • [41:09, Ember]: “I felt a lot like you did, Stephanie, of like, clearly my ability to judge is broken.”
• It’s Not the Victim — It’s the Offender:
  • [41:29, Stephanie]: “It’s not my gut that’s broken, it’s him that’s broken.”

Tactics of Perpetrators: Normalization and Gaslighting

• “Everyone does this” Defense:
  • [41:49, Natalie]: “He sort of normalized that… There’s more than just this site or there’s a lot of people doing it like it’s normal.”
  • [42:05, Stephanie]: “My husband actually said to me, you know, other wives just participate in this… Well, not me.”
  • [42:24, Stephanie]: “They’re trying to normalize their behavior and make us feel like we’re the one that’s wrong.”
  • [42:15, Ember]: “It’s almost like, because you don’t want to participate, this is happening to you.”

Legal System: Barriers and Shame

• Re-Traumatization and Self-Blame:
  • [42:37, Saskia]: “It’s so re-traumatizing to have to then put your life on display… I had no idea how shamed I would be in the process.”
  • [43:02, Stephanie]: “I didn’t have what it takes to sit there and to be shamed and have every decision in my life looked at 100%.”
  • [43:24, Ember]: “One of the hardest parts that I still carry a lot of shame about is that I didn’t have what it took to batter back against the justice system… There’s nothing we can do about it.”
• Economic Dependence and Loss of Control:
  • [44:06, Natalie]: “I try to remind myself… it was the best decision at the time that I made. … I was financially dependent on him as well.”
• Judgment from Others for Not Pressing Charges:
  • [44:31, Ember]: “If your answer is no, automatically you lose credibility. If you really did that to you, you would have pressed charges is essentially what people believe.”
• Impossibly Low Conviction Rates:
  Rainn’s Megan Cutter offers stark statistics:
  • [45:01, Cutter, paraphrased]: 98% of perpetrators walk free. For every 1,000 sexual assaults, only 25 perpetrators are incarcerated.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Betrayal at Home:

• Stephanie (33:40):
  “When you go home at the end of the day and you crawl into bed with the man that you love, that should be the safest place you’ll ever be in the world. I found out that that was the most dangerous place that I had ever been. And that is a real mind fuck.”

On the Courage to Share and Seek Support:

• Saskia (40:13):
  “When I did try to reach out for help, I felt like because it was such a unique experience, nobody really wanted to touch it with a ten foot pole.”
• Stephanie (41:29):
  “Honestly, it has been a real journey for me to get to the point of realizing that it’s not my gut that’s broken, it’s him that’s broken.”
• Ember (34:53):
  “It is such an isolating experience to feel like nobody else can relate to what I’ve been through.”

On Legal and Societal Failures:

• Ember (43:24):
  “I was being drugged and raped, and at one point, I woke up at attack. And I remember going to law enforcement… and they’re like, well, if it’s been two days, the drugs are out of your system. And it’s really a he said, she said situation. … Like, we can’t prove anything.”

On the Desire for Connection:

• Stephanie (35:03):
  “To connect with somebody else who says, ‘I get it. I see you.’ It’s a gift.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:35–05:14 — Global pattern of intimate partner sexual assault, the French "Giselle Pellico" case
• 06:57–18:17 — Ember's story: assault, discovery, aftermath
• 22:12–30:50 — Natalie's story: discovery via technology, isolation, escape
• 31:48–34:08 — Stephanie's story: online exposure, trauma’s aftermath
• 34:08–35:29 — The intense isolation of survivors
• 38:36–45:01 — Survivor roundtable: community, justice, shame, systems

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Survivor Resources

• RAINN (Rape, Abuse, and Incest National Network):
  Resources, confidential support: rainn.org/betrayal
  Text HOPE to 64673 or call 1-800-656-HOPE

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Episode Tone & Takeaways

The tone throughout is compassionate, raw, and unflinching. The survivors’ voices—authentic, occasionally halting or choked—confront listeners with the complexity of betrayal, the struggle for justice, and the desperate hope for understanding and solidarity. The show actively dismantles the illusion of the “perfect victim,” stressing that these crimes transcend backgrounds and that community and public awareness are the first steps toward meaningful action and healing.

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Next episode preview:
The series will explore why legal recourse is so often out of reach for survivors—even when crimes are blatant and horrifying.

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“You are not alone.” (RAINN, Betrayal Team)

Transcript

[Andrea Gunning]

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[Andrea Gunning]

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[Andrea Gunning]

If Saskia's story sounds familiar to you, it might be because of another case that's been in the news.

[Survivors and Narrators]

The mass rape trial, which has stunned

[Andrea Gunning]

France, has ended with 51 men all

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being found guilty for what they did to Giselle Pellico.

[Andrea Gunning]

Our top story today is the mass rape trial that has horrified France. Giselle Pelico's story was shared around the

[OnDeck and Other Advertisers]

world for almost a decade. Her husband drugged and raped her and

[Andrea Gunning]

invited dozens of other men to do the same. In those years, Giselle thought she was seriously ill. She thought she was blacking out because of a possible brain tumor or maybe early onset Alzheimer's. She'd been married to her husband for nearly 50 years. She never suspected he had anything to do with her symptoms. Like Saskia, she only learned the truth when she saw videos of herself being raped.

[Survivors and Narrators]

Ms. Pellico chose to have the trial held in an open court and hopes the public trial will help change society.

[Andrea Gunning]

When Gisele's story made headlines in December 2024, we were a few months into talking to Saskia. We forwarded her an article about the case. It was the first time she'd ever heard a story like her own.

[Survivors and Narrators]

It was empowering. I didn't know that there were other people out there like me.

[Andrea Gunning]

But Saskia and Gisele aren't a club of two. In the last two years, there have been more and more stories like this of people raping their partners and publishing images and videos of their crimes. For example, German authorities uncovered a group chat on the app Telegram where men were sharing intimate images of their partners. Some were even sharing live videos of sexual assaults. This wasn't a group chat of 10 or even 100 men. There were 70,000 members. The same thing happened in Italy. 32,000 men on Facebook were part of a group called Mia Mogli My Wife, where they shared non consensual intimate Images. It took 3,000 complaints and six years for the group to get shut down. People are just waking up to this crime. And as awareness grows, other survivors like Saskia are coming out of the shadows.

[Stephanie]

When you go home at the end of the day and you crawl into bed with the man that you love, that should be the safest place you'll ever be in the world. I found out that that was the most dangerous place that I had ever been and that is a real mind f.

[Andrea Gunning]

I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal. Season five, Episode seven Not alone. We're not finished telling Saskia's story, but before we dive deeper into this season, we need to zoom out a bit, because what happened to Saskia wasn't a one off. There are people all over the world committing these kinds of crimes. And there are more survivors who are just now climbing out of the dark. In the past few years, we've heard from other people like Saskia. They're women of different ages and different backgrounds. Their stories unfolded years or even decades apart. And they each made different choices in the aftermath of what happened to them. But they've all endured something similar. An unthinkable crime at the hands of someone they loved. We want to share the stories of three women who wrote into us. Let's start with Ember. Growing up, Ember never imagined she'd be the victim of a crime like this.

[Ember]

Everyone described me as, like, just a very strong individual. And I myself thought, if you're strong, you're not going to fall prey to that kind of thing.

[Andrea Gunning]

At 21, Ember was confident, outspoken. She knew who she was, and her faith was a big part of that. She's Christian, and she drew clear boundaries in accordance with her beliefs.

[Ember]

I really did not want to engage in intercourse until I was married. And I was honest about that with every guy I dated. Like, this is what I believe, and if you don't like it, there's the door.

[Andrea Gunning]

With her fiance, she found a guy who understood, a man who'd respect her values. His name was John.

[Ember]

At this point, we had been together for about four years. On and off.

[Andrea Gunning]

During those four years, there had been ups and downs, periods where John's mental health suffered. But finally, Ember saw him becoming the man she always knew he could be. He was stable and thoughtful, and he was getting more involved in the church.

[Ember]

I thought that it was really from a place of him growing and healing and changing.

[Andrea Gunning]

Everyone around them saw the shift in John. Their friends and family were so excited about the engagement. Even their pastor gave his approval.

[Ember]

It's like all relationships go through really hard times. You guys seem like you're really good together, and I think this would be completely okay. And we're like, okay? And I'm sitting there going, if there were red flags, this person would point this out. And nobody pulled a red flag out.

[Andrea Gunning]

Their engagement was the start of a new chapter, a beautiful life together. Then a month into their engagement, Ember got sick. It started one Night at John's house, she remembers sitting down to study.

[Ember]

But after that, I don't recall anything that happened other than I somehow made it home.

[Andrea Gunning]

It was like her memory just jumped. One second she was at John's, the next she was home. She explained it away. She must have had a long day, dozed off. But nights like this kept happening.

[Ember]

There were so many occasions where I would fall asleep studying, and he would wake me up and be like, oh, my gosh, you fell asleep again. You need to hurry up and get home. And I would be so out of it, I wouldn't know what was happening, and I'd just somehow make my way home.

[Andrea Gunning]

Over time, Ember started experiencing other symptoms, like chronic pain without any clear cause.

[Ember]

It was a pain that was indescribable. I couldn't sit, I couldn't stand. I just couldn't find any comfortable position, and I couldn't remember anything that had happened.

[Andrea Gunning]

And that wasn't all.

[Ember]

I'm breaking out in hives all over my body, having migraines I've never had before.

[Andrea Gunning]

Through it all, John was there for Ember.

[Ember]

I remember him coming over to, like, comfort me. He just sat with me and rubbed my back and was like, I'm so sorry you're not feeling well.

[Andrea Gunning]

He supported her as she searched for a diagnosis and went to doctor after doctor. No one could figure out what was going on.

[Ember]

They were just like, oh, you're probably really stressed out. I was, you know, in the throes of school and working full time and getting married and all that stuff. I was still able to function, but internally I was falling apart.

[Andrea Gunning]

Things went on like this for a year with Ember at a total loss. Just like Saskia, she wanted a solution, some answer that would tie all her symptoms together. And then one day, an answer began to emerge. During this time, Ember was taking classes to become a massage therapist. On this particular day, her instructor was talking about the psoas muscle.

[Ember]

The psoas muscle is a highly protective muscle that a lot of people don't even know exists. It attaches on the front of our spine, and if we are in fight or flight, it is engaged instantaneously.

[Andrea Gunning]

The instructor asked Ember to come up to the front so she could have someone to demonstrate on. This happened all the time in class, and Ember didn't think anything of it.

[Ember]

I'm laying on the massage therapy table. All of the other students are watching, and she goes to address my psoas muscle, and I immediately dissociate. I don't remember anything that happened on the table. I don't remember anything that my body did that I said. All I remember is at the end, her saying, okay, that was interesting. I get up from the table, and she's like, hey, do you have a minute? Can you come outside? And I said, okay, sure. And she's like, do you know what just happened in there? And I was like, no, you were working on my psoas. She's like, you were somewhere else. You were not present. And I really have a strong sense that I need to tell you that something's probably really wrong if your psoas is responding in this way and causing you to go somewhere else.

[Andrea Gunning]

Somewhere else. Lying on the massage table, her mind and body split off into separate directions, just like it did on those nights studying with John. Things were happening around her, but she couldn't remember them. Looking back, Ember now has an explanation for what was going on.

[Ember]

I was dissociating from my trauma.

[Andrea Gunning]

Dissociation occurs when the mind separates from the body as a way of protecting itself from harm. The brain mutes physical sensations, thoughts, and memories, such that many people coming out of dissociative episodes feel like they've just woken up from a dream. But the body stores memories of trauma, even if the brain tries to push them out. That day on the massage table, Ember's body demonstrated that something was wrong.

[Ember]

It was kind of the beginning of my body and brain saying, we need to be in this together instead of separating. In fact, it was shortly thereafter that I actually woke up mid attack.

[Andrea Gunning]

The night started the way so many others had. She was hanging out at John's house when her mind went dark. But on this night, in the midst of her dissociation, she woke up, and her brain and body snapped back together. When she came to, there was someone on top of her. Her eyes focused, and suddenly she could see it was John.

[Ember]

I freaked out, and I was like, what is happening? She's like, nothing. Nothing. Nothing happened. And I'm like, there's evidence that something happened.

[Andrea Gunning]

His pants were pulled down. So were hers. And remember, Ember didn't want to have sex until marriage. Immediately, Ember could tell John had taken that choice away from her in the moment. She was still groggy.

[Ember]

I'm still not fully there, but I'm conscious enough to know something is really, really wrong. But I lost it.

[Andrea Gunning]

In a daze, she threw on her clothes and ran out the door, went home. She called people she could trust, and one of those people notified the church the next day. A pastor called John and Ember in for a meeting.

[Ember]

And we sit down with the pastor, and he's like, what's going on? All I can do is look down at my shoes. All I remember is the floor.

[Andrea Gunning]

She was quiet, but to her surprise, John spoke up, and he told the pastor everything. John came right out and confessed.

[Ember]

He was drugging me and raping me. The pastor goes, how often has this happened? He goes, this has happened probably once a week almost the whole time we've been engaged. That is now almost an entire year. It was so much worse than anything I had ever imagined. And I'm just completely just numb, just numb.

[Andrea Gunning]

John and their pastor kept talking, but Ember tuned them out. All of her senses blurred together into one loud hum. Finally, their pastor asked John to leave the room so he could speak to Ember alone.

[Ember]

So he leaves the room, and Pastor looks at me, and he's like, you need to get out of this relationship. This is not safe. This is not good. This is not going to stop.

[Andrea Gunning]

But as shocked as Ember was, she wasn't ready to hear that yet. After all, she loved John. And leaving him would mean calling off their wedding.

[Ember]

We're like, three months before our wedding at this point in time, and breaking that off now means I have to tell everyone what has happened. That, to me, was almost as devastating as realizing what had happened. Now everybody's going to know. This intense desire to hide in that amount of pain was just insurmountable.

[Andrea Gunning]

Ember couldn't allow herself to face the reality of her situation. She was still holding out hope that maybe if John got treatment, it would all be okay. They could forget about this and move ahead with the wedding. So John started going to therapy, and so did she.

[Ember]

I was seeing a therapist that specialized in sexual abuse, and he was seeing a therapist that specialized in sexual addiction.

[Andrea Gunning]

But therapy gave her different answers than the ones she was seeking. Ember and John's therapists worked at the same location. One day, while waiting for her session, John's therapist came through the waiting room.

[Ember]

He walked past me, and then he stopped. He came back. You could see his wheels turning. He's like, I'm not supposed to say this, but I feel like you need to know. We've run through a series of diagnostic tests on your fiance. He's not a safe person. He's officially diagnosed as a sociopath, and you should get as far away from him as possible.

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[Andrea Gunning]

Ember was waiting for her therapy session when she was approached by John's therapist. He told her that John was a diagnosed sociopath and she needed to protect herself. The therapist had to have felt strongly because he was taking a huge professional risk. Telling Ember threatened his license. He violated client confidentiality.

[Ember]

But it was a godsend because, honestly, if I hadn't heard those words, I think I probably would have assumed that everything was going to be okay for a lot longer. I really thought that I was doing the good Christian thing by staying with him, that, like, I was sacrificing myself so that he could experience love. And that was the point where I was like, I can't marry this man.

[Andrea Gunning]

We'll hear more from Ember at the end of the episode, but now we want to introduce you to another survivor, Natalie. At 23, she started dating a guy we'll call Stephen. When she was with him, I felt

[Survivors and Narrators]

like I was a queen. He would make me feel beautiful and smart, and he would type up these really nice poems or just say how he looks forward to spending time together and getting married and having a family.

[Andrea Gunning]

Their relationship was a long time coming. He was her best friend's older brother, and in every way, their lives just seemed to fit together. They played on the same softball team. They had a lot of the same friends. And when they talked, the conversation flowed.

[Survivors and Narrators]

It was very natural, and it was just easy. I felt like we had a really strong foundation.

[Andrea Gunning]

Eventually, they got engaged, then married. But when Natalie got pregnant, that was when Stephen really became her rock. She was nervous about being a mom. In the months leading up to the

[Survivors and Narrators]

birth, I would rearrange the nursery. I don't know how many times I rearranged it, and I'd, like, vacuum it every day.

[Andrea Gunning]

Stephen grounded and supported her.

[Survivors and Narrators]

We had a lot of late nights setting things up, and I would feel bad because he would have to work in the morning, but he was all about it, all about Helping and getting everything ready and being very hands on.

[Andrea Gunning]

When their son arrived, Steven really stepped up. He made everything feel manageable.

[Survivors and Narrators]

He would get up with him. He would feed him in the middle of the night. Even when he had to work the next morning. He would be wanting to help with my son and changing his diaper or just being with him to give me an hour of time for myself.

[Andrea Gunning]

Steven was a dream, dad. They were in this together, and for a while, they lived a great life as a family. Then came one night when their son was five. Natalie was helping him get ready for bed. He had his own tablet where he could play games and watch tv. All the family's devices were linked in a cloud.

[Survivors and Narrators]

And I had his tablet because I was gonna put it in on the counter to charge it.

[Andrea Gunning]

She was plugging it in when she saw something on the home screen.

[Survivors and Narrators]

There was, like, a little window that had a man, and you could see a penis on the screen. I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, horrified that my son could see that. And I'm like, I hope he didn't click on this. Like, what? I didn't notice it before.

[Andrea Gunning]

Her husband was at work. Natalie messaged him right away. Stephen put her at ease. He thought it must be spam. Once her son went to sleep, Natalie went back to the tablet to reset it to factory settings.

[Survivors and Narrators]

I was looking in the cloud where the photos and images are, because I didn't want to delete all of that. And then that's when I saw photos and, like, videos. Dozens of these clips and images.

[Andrea Gunning]

It was all graphic sexual material.

[Survivors and Narrators]

I was like, I gotta get this stuff off of here. But then as I'm looking through, I notice my bedroom.

[Andrea Gunning]

She froze. And she zoomed in on the photo.

[Survivors and Narrators]

You can see his hands, his wedding ring. And then I realized that I am in these images. I'm just, like, horrified because I'm not awake. Some of them, I'm, like, barely conscious. And I'm like, how do I not know what's happening to me? There's no way that he's doing these things to me. And I have no idea what's happening. I would have woken up.

[Andrea Gunning]

She kept clicking through more photos and videos, and then the images led her to fetish websites. She could see that one of the videos was posted for anyone to see.

[Survivors and Narrators]

The title of the video that he had posted was something like creeping around without her knowing. And I was nauseous. I was so embarrassed. And I was. I just, like, shut down. Really.

[Andrea Gunning]

The most upsetting part of it All

[Survivors and Narrators]

I was pregnant with my daughter when I found this. One of the things I remember thinking was, oh, my God, was I an active participant in making my daughter? I just remember thinking, like, oh, my God, okay. I'm this many weeks along and counting back, like, oh, my God, okay. And I remember the weekend and I remember like, thank God. Like, okay, yes, I remember. This was when it happened.

[Andrea Gunning]

When Steven came home, she confronted him.

[Survivors and Narrators]

I remember us sitting in the back room of the house and I just gave him the tablet and I had the images pulled up and I'm like, what is this? And he just kind of looked at it and was like, I have a problem. He was asking me like, let's go to counseling. Can we do counseling? And I'm thinking, I think you need counseling. From the day that I confronted him, I never slept in the same bed as him.

[Andrea Gunning]

But leaving altogether didn't feel like an option.

[Survivors and Narrators]

I remember shutting down and thinking, like, what am I supposed to do? Like, I work two days a week. He's a hands on dad. He's supporting us. I need his help. What am I going to do?

[Andrea Gunning]

So she stayed. She picked up as many shifts at work as she could. And when Stephen would come home at the end of his workday, she'd find an excuse to go out.

[Survivors and Narrators]

I wouldn't want to be home when he was home.

[Andrea Gunning]

As the months passed, Natalie began to uncover the full extent of Stephen's abuse.

[Survivors and Narrators]

I found in his bedside table, underneath some files, he had a bottle of Tylenol pm and they were all broken up and they were in pieces. And then there was some other powder stuff in the bottle too. And I'm like, that is probably what he was using and putting it in my drinks because I was not just asleep. I was literally unconscious.

[Andrea Gunning]

It shattered her sense of safety in her own body and in her own home.

[Survivors and Narrators]

I didn't even want to drink anything that was opened in the house because I was afraid that he would put something in it.

[Andrea Gunning]

In the aftermath of her discovery, her friends and family could tell something had changed in her. But she kept the truth to herself.

[Survivors and Narrators]

People would ask me, you know, are you okay? Or, you know, you're quiet. Oh, I'm just tired. Oh, I didn't sleep well last night. Or, oh, I'm just nervous about the baby coming. It was so embarrassing to me. It was like I was trying to avoid really thinking about that. It was just like this deep secret that I had.

[Andrea Gunning]

When her daughter was born, she continued to stay silent. Her priority was giving her kids a good Life. And for a long time, she thought that meant smiling through the pain. But eventually, she realized she couldn't keep living in that house. She had to leave.

[Survivors and Narrators]

I remember starting to pay things off that were in my name. And I was starting to try to save a little bit of money, like my own money, because he was in charge of our finances. It took me well over a year, just kind of living in the same house with him and being paranoid and then being just angry and then being bitter.

[Andrea Gunning]

Three years after her discovery, she finally saved enough money to move out. The new house wasn't much, but it was hers. She was free.

[Survivors and Narrators]

My Realtor unlocked the door, and, you know, we had walked in, and she's like, here it is. Here's your keys. This is your house. I was like, oh, my gosh. You know, this is great. And then after she left, I sat in there on the floor and I cried. And I was excited and scared and just really proud and thinking, like, okay, this is gonna be really hard. But I told myself that day, I'm gonna do it. This is mine. This is something that he's not going to take from me. I'm gonna do it by myself, me and my kids. And I'm going to be the best mom that I can be. This is the first day of the rest of my life.

[Andrea Gunning]

There's one more woman to introduce you to or maybe reintroduce you to, because we've told her story before on the first two episodes of Betrayal Weekly. She was the woman who got us thinking about this kind of crime two years ago, when she discovered what her husband did to her.

[Stephanie]

I couldn't think. I couldn't function. I mean, the kids had to, like, sit me down at the table and force me to eat. And I just laid in bed and cried. I didn't just lose my husband. I lost my job. I lost my home. I lost my community. I lost trust. I lost safety. I really had to start over from square one.

[Andrea Gunning]

Stephanie was married for 23 years, but then she discovered something horrifying on her husband's laptop.

[Stephanie]

He had a Flickr account that was filled with nude photos of me, hundreds of pictures. He explained that he puts the picture up in a chat room. And 25 people at a time can be in the chat room, but people come and go. And so as they come in and out, these other men are explaining how they would rape me.

[Andrea Gunning]

We asked Stephanie, what is it that only people who've experienced this crime can understand?

[Stephanie]

Every woman has that fear, that awareness that there could be A stranger that could jump out and assault me, rape me.

[Andrea Gunning]

But for her and for women who've been through what she's been through, it's this other thing.

[Stephanie]

It's that when you go home at the end of the day and you crawl into bed with the man that you love, that should be the safest place you'll ever be in the world. I found out that that was the most dangerous place that I had ever been. And that is a real mind fuck.

[Andrea Gunning]

Ember, Natalie, Stephanie and Saskia. Four women who wrote into our show with strikingly similar stories. All of these women survived drug facilitated sexual assault for three of them. Non consensual photos and videos were shared with strangers online. All of these women spent months, even years in the dark not knowing what their partners were doing to them. And they all thought they were the only one.

[Survivors and Narrators]

Nobody that I knew had been through anything similar. So even though I had all these people around, I still felt so alone and like a freak. The shame was really unbearable. Like, who am I going to tell this to?

[Ember]

It is such an isolating experience to feel like nobody else can relate to what I've been through.

[Andrea Gunning]

So we decided to bring these four

[Stephanie]

women together to connect with somebody else. Who says, I get it. I see you. It's a gift.

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[Andrea Gunning]

After speaking to these four survivors, we knew we wanted to gather a group together because we're at an inflection point. Like us, the public is just waking up to this crime, opening their eyes to the fact that intimate partners can do things like this and share them on the Internet. To get more victims to come forward and to expose how pervasive this crime is, we need to talk about it. So we set aside A Saturday. And we gathered Ember, Natalie, Stephanie, and Saskia on a video call. First off, I just want to say I am so grateful that you guys made time today to make sure this was a safe experience for everyone involved. We also invited a facilitator. Hi, everyone. My name is Megan Cutter and I am the chief of victim services at rainn. Rainn, the Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network, which is the nation's largest antisexual violence organization, and we operate the national sexual assault hotline. RAINN has been consulting with us throughout this season, and I'm really honored and grateful to facilitate this conversation today. For the rest of this episode, we'll be playing you excerpts from our group discussion. And as a note, we'll be sharing more excerpts in a bonus episode. I thought we could kick off the conversation talking about this idea of community. What has it been like trying to find community or support groups after what happened to you? Saskia jumped in first.

[Survivors and Narrators]

I hadn't heard about any of this before it happened to me. And when I did try to reach out for help, I felt like because it was such a unique experience, nobody really wanted to touch it with a ten foot pole. One of my favorite parts of all this is meeting other people who can relate to having these acts done by someone who is dear to you.

[Stephanie]

It's like, wow, you did this to the person you're supposed to love most in the world.

[Andrea Gunning]

That's Stephanie, the woman who told her story on Betrayal Weekly.

[Stephanie]

I had no bad feelings about my husband. I trusted him 100%. And so what that told me is that my gut for who was good and who was bad was busted.

[Ember]

I felt a lot like you did, Stephanie, of like, clearly my ability to judge is broken.

[Andrea Gunning]

That's Ember, the woman you heard at the top whose fiance was assaulting her.

[Ember]

And I had always prided myself on being a good judge of character and being able to read people. So that was like a hit to my sense of safety.

[Stephanie]

Honestly, it has been a real journey for me to get to the point of realizing that it's not my gut that's broken, it's him that's broken.

[Andrea Gunning]

Natalie brought up something we hear about in so many of these stories.

[Survivors and Narrators]

You know, just talking with my perpetrator, I know that he sort of normalized that. Well, I'm not the only one. There's more than just this site or there's a lot of people doing it like it's normal.

[Stephanie]

My husband actually said to me, you know, other wives just participate in this and like, it really well, not me.

[Ember]

It's almost like, because you don't want to participate, this is happening to you. I wouldn't have to do this if you were just a willing participant.

[Stephanie]

And also, that idea, like Natalie said, they're trying to normalize their behavior and make us feel like we're the one that's wrong.

[Survivors and Narrators]

I completely get why people don't come forward because we've been so traumatized already, and it's so re Traumatizing to have to then put your life on display. Going through the criminal proceedings, I had no idea how shamed I would be in the process or how difficult it would be.

[Stephanie]

Saskia, you are so brave. I did look into trying to press charges against my husband, but I didn't have what it takes to sit there and to be shamed and have every decision in my Life looked at 100%.

[Ember]

I think that's one of the hardest parts that I still carry a lot of shame about, is that I didn't what it took to batter back against the justice system. I was being drugged and raped, and at one point, I woke up at attack. And I remember going to law enforcement about two days later when I finally had my head about me. And I tell them what I knew, and they're like, well, if it's been two days, the drugs are out of your system. And it's really a he said, she said situation. You guys are in a relationship. Like, we can't prove anything. There's nothing we can do about it.

[Survivors and Narrators]

I didn't report either. And I try to remind myself about that being the best decision at the time that I made. And I just was feeling guilty for not even thinking about being able to file a restraining order because I was financially dependent on him as well.

[Ember]

And then that's another part where people, like, diminish what's happened to you because it's like, oh, well, did you press charges? And if your answer is no, automatically you lose credibility. If you really did that to you, you would have pressed charges is essentially what people believe.

[Survivors and Narrators]

There's no sure thing. So even if you had filed charges, I mean, I think if you look at the statistics of people who do report how few people that the perpetrator actually is convicted.

[Andrea Gunning]

Our facilitator from Rain, Megan Cutter, jumped in to share a statistic. 98% of perpetrators walk free. And for every 1,000 sexual assaults, 50 reports lead to arrests, 28 cases lead to felony convictions, and only 25 perpetrators are sentenced to some form of incarceration. These numbers shocked us. We knew that few perpetrators ever faced justice, but we had no idea it was this few. On the next episode of Betrayal, we dig into one reason why I said

[Survivors and Narrators]

that is not allowed. That is illegal. It's a crime. He can't do that. Come to find out. They're married. Come to find out. Here we are in 2019-2020-2021-2022, 2023. He probably was allowed to do that.

[Andrea Gunning]

For resources on sexual violence, visit rainn.org betrayal that's R-A-I N N.org betrayal. You can also get free contact confidential 24. 7 support through RAINN's National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just text HOPE to 64673 or call 1-800-656-HOPE you are not alone. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team or want to tell us your story, email [e-mail] that is betrayalpodmail.com or follow us on Instagram etrayalpod to access additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community. Join our [e-mail] we're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Kaitlin golden, with additional production by Olivia Hewitt. Our supervising producer is Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our Associate producer is Leah Jablo. Production management by Kristen Melchiori. Additional support by Curry Richmond. Our I Heart team is Ally Perry and Jessica Krynchek. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins with additional editing and mixing by Matt d'. Alvecchio. Special thanks to Saskia, her friends and family and special thanks to Will Pearson and Carrie Lieberman. The roundtable discussion was led with the help of Rainn, the Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network. Thank you to our facilitator, Megan Cutter and to Angelina Marcano for her support. Additional thanks to Jennifer Simmons, Caliba Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines Music library provided by My Music and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. There's a fire inside you you can't ignore. Stand still. Not a chance. You're a lifelong learner who's come this far. Now we are here to help you keep going further Capella University what can't you do?

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[Andrea Gunning]

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[Ember]

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[Andrea Gunning]

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Friends like these the Murder of Skylar Nese is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney911.

[Andrea Gunning]

Do you have an emergency?

[Survivors and Narrators]

I have a 16 year old daugh.

[Ember]

I can't get a hold of her.

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I am scared to death.

[Survivors and Narrators]

We wanted to talk to Skyler's friends.

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They're not telling the full story. The truth is gruesomely horrific.

[Andrea Gunning]

How could you do this to your best friend?

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[Andrea Gunning]

This is an iheart podcast. Guaranteed human.