Betrayal: Season 4 – BONUS EP 1: The Lying Experts

Release Date: July 11, 2025
Host: Andrea Gunning
Produced by: iHeartPodcasts and Glass Podcasts

Overview

In "Betrayal: Season 4 – BONUS EP 1: The Lying Experts," host Andrea Gunning delves deeper into the harrowing story of Karoline Borega, who uncovers the shocking deceit of her husband Joel—a respected Colorado Springs Police officer. This episode not only narrates Karoline's journey through betrayal but also explores the psychology of lying with insights from renowned deception experts Chris Hart and Drew Curtis. By examining the motivations behind deceit and the challenges of rebuilding trust, the episode offers listeners a comprehensive understanding of the complex dynamics of betrayal.

Karoline Borega’s Story of Betrayal

At [03:09], Andrea Gunning introduces the listener to Karoline Borega's ordeal:

Andrea Gunning: "After two decades of marriage, she discovered that her entire life was a mirage. Her husband Joel, an honorable cop, was anything but. For years, he'd been spending his time on the clock, having sex in his police car. On top of that, he'd had dozens of affairs."

Karoline's revelation that Joel utilized his police badge to mask his infidelities presents a stark contrast between his public persona and private actions. This duality not only shattered Karoline's trust but also forced her to reconcile two conflicting realities of her marriage.

The Depth of Deception

Chris Hart, one of the episode's deception experts, underscores the severity of Joel's actions:

Chris Hart: "Our marriage has just been lie after lie, day after day."

Joel's continuous deceit—masking his whereabouts, relationships, and true intentions—compounded the betrayal, making it immensely challenging for Karoline to discern the truth from the fabricated narratives Joel presented over two decades.

Understanding Pathological Lying

Andrea introduces Chris Hart and Drew Curtis, esteemed psychology researchers and authors of Big Liars, to dissect the phenomenon of chronic dishonesty.

Chris Hart: "Most people are honest most of the time, but it's a small percentage of the population who tells excessive amounts of lies... and there's a smaller subset of individuals who are pathological liars where their lies do disadvantage them, typically in their relationships, causing them distress and so forth."

Pathological lying is characterized by persistent and compulsive lying that serves no clear benefit and often hinders the liar's personal and professional relationships. Hart emphasizes that despite its prevalence, pathological lying remains unrecognized in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), hindering effective diagnosis and treatment.

The Mechanics of Lying

Andrea probes deeper into the nature of deception:

Andrea Gunning: "You guys say in your book, Big Liars, that lying, at its core is the attempt to persuade. Can you tell us a little bit more about what you mean by that?"

Drew Curtis: "Oftentimes, our goals and ambitions are in alignment with other people, but there's always a certain degree to which that's not true... we're always navigating that tension between satisfying our own goals and trying to match someone else's goals."

Lying, as Curtis explains, often stems from a desire to influence others to achieve personal objectives. This persuasive aspect of deception makes it a potent tool for manipulation, enabling individuals like Joel to maintain their facade and control over their narratives.

Impact on Victims and Rebuilding Trust

The episode addresses the profound impact of betrayal on victims and offers strategies for healing:

Chris Hart: "One of the challenges with deception is that it really damages trust. And so the restoration of trust is kind of at the seat of this."

Rebuilding trust after prolonged deceit is arduous. Hart advises against allowing suspicion to overshadow genuine positive experiences, urging individuals to commit to where they want to be moving forward. He notes the psychological barriers victims face, such as heightened walls against vulnerability and the fear of being hurt again.

Andrea acknowledges the difficulty of this process:

Andrea Gunning: "But it's easier said than done."

Hart concurs, emphasizing the necessity of deliberate decisions to pursue healing despite the lingering doubts and emotional scars left by the betrayal.

Possibility of Change for Pathological Liars

Exploring whether individuals entrenched in deceit can change, the experts are cautiously optimistic:

Chris Hart: "I think people always have the opportunities to change... It's aspects like modeling honesty even when it's hard... having those tough conversations."

Drew Curtis: "A lot of it is just the intention to change. Lying is really a social strategy that people adopt and cultivate... If they make the intention to be more honest every day, they start to see some change."

Change is portrayed as a gradual process that requires a conscious commitment to honesty. Cognitive-behavioral strategies, such as practicing truthful interactions and engaging in difficult conversations, are recommended as foundational steps towards overcoming habitual deceit.

Conclusion

"Betrayal: Season 4 – BONUS EP 1: The Lying Experts" offers a compelling exploration of personal betrayal intertwined with professional deceit. Through Karoline Borega’s story and the expert analysis provided by Chris Hart and Drew Curtis, the episode illuminates the complexities of pathological lying and its devastating effects on relationships. It also presents a path forward for both victims seeking healing and liars aiming to reform their behaviors. This episode serves as a vital resource for anyone grappling with the aftermath of betrayal, providing both empathy and actionable insights.

Additional Resources

• Book Mentioned: Big Liars by Chris Hart and Drew Curtis
• Subscribe for More Content: Betrayal Substack
• Follow on Instagram: @betrayalpod

Note: This summary excludes advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content sections to focus solely on the episode's core discussions and insights.