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- [00:00]
Andrea Gunning
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:06]
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Drew Curtis
Minute cycle based on 27 inch combos based on using a super speed cycle only with a 10 pound doe load.
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Andrea Gunning
Cotton 50% plus polyester 50%.
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Drew Curtis
Individual results may vary based on actual load content.
- [03:10]
Andrea Gunning
Hi guys, it's Andraaya with a bonus episode this season on betrayal. We're telling the story of Caroline Baraga. After two decades of marriage, she discovered that her entire life was a mirage. Her husband Joel, an honorable cop, was anything but. For years, he'd been spending his time on the clock, having sex in his police car. On top of that, he'd had dozens of affairs. For Caroline, this betrayal was not just about what Joel did. It was about the lengths he went to to cover it all up.
- [03:44]
Chris Hart
Our marriage has just been lie after.
- [03:46]
Andrea Gunning
Lie after lie, day after day. Joel deceived her. He lied about where he was, who he was with, and what he was really up to. All those long nights on duty. And even during his investigation by the Colorado Springs Police Department, when he signed a document guaranteeing honesty, he continued to hide the truth.
- [04:08]
Chris Hart
To me, this is the most disturbing piece of the entire case. The fact that you lied, the fact that you were willing to put this on a third person is absolutely horrific and constitutes a violation of your oath in office.
- [04:20]
Andrea Gunning
While reporting on Caroline's story, our team has been fascinated by the idea of liars. People who refuse to be honest even when their back is up against the wall. We wanted to understand why people lie and how someone like Joel could have.
- [04:36]
Annabe Sofa
Kept lying for so long.
- [04:39]
Andrea Gunning
So we tracked down two of the world's leading experts and deception.
- [04:49]
Drew Curtis
I'm Drew Curtis and my name's Chris Hart.
- [04:52]
Andrea Gunning
They're both psychology researchers and professors. Together they wrote a book called big what psychological science tells us about lying and how you can avoid being duped. They've spent years studying pathological lying, so I asked them to define it for me.
- [05:10]
Chris Hart
Most people are honest most of the time, but it's a small percentage of the population who tells excessive amounts of lies. So there's. There's these groups of prolific or big liars who tell lots of lies, and those lies don't always put them at some disadvantage. And then there's a smaller subset of individuals who would say are pathological liars where their lies do disadvantage them, typically in their relationships, causing them distress and so forth.
- [05:39]
Andrea Gunning
You guys say in your book, Big Liars, that lying, at its core is the attempt to persuade. Can you tell us a little bit more about what you mean by that?
- [05:50]
Drew Curtis
Oftentimes, our goals and ambitions are in alignment with other people, but there's always a certain degree to which that's not true. And so we're always navigating that tension between satisfying our own goals and trying to match someone else's goals.
- [06:05]
Chris Hart
And.
- [06:06]
Drew Curtis
But I think ultimately we. We all find ourselves bending the truth and sometimes outright lying when we feel like that's our best option at persuading other people to essentially do what we want.
- [06:18]
Andrea Gunning
People are coming to the show because in some ways they relate to either Caroline's story or Ashley or Stacy's story from, like, past seasons. In a lot of the cases, they were with someone that deceived them for their own gain. What kind of resources could we give to anybody who's trying to help someone who cares about the liar? Where do you start? Where do you go to, like, help advocate for them to get help? Is there actually a path forward for these individuals?
- [06:47]
Chris Hart
What you're saying makes me think of two pieces to this. And one is how do we overcome deception within our relationships or betrayals that are coupled with deception? One of the challenges with deception is that it really damages trust. And so the restoration of trust is kind of at the seat of this. But you're right, there's not a lot of help. And to make this clear, pathological lying is not currently recognized as a formal diagnostic entity in the dsm.
- [07:17]
Andrea Gunning
For those unfamiliar with the term, the DSM is a manual from mental health professionals. It lays out diagnoses recognized by the medical establishment. And Dr. Curtis is saying that pathological lying is not something clinicians can formally diagnose.
- [07:32]
Chris Hart
And so that leaves a lot of people helpless, you know, who might reach out to me or Chris or experts saying, hey, can you help me?
- [07:40]
Andrea Gunning
Why do you think that this isn't a formal diagnosis in the dsm?
- [07:45]
Chris Hart
It's surprising to me because some of the most prolific writers in psychiatry and psychology identified pathological lying. And it comes with different names. And that's one of our hypothesis is that maybe it was too, too fragmented. We called it all these different things, and maybe it didn't cohesively come together. The other part of this is a lot of the research on pathological lying, and the case Studies were late 1800s, early 1900s, but after about 1915, there's really not a lot of writing on it until maybe the 1980s. So as the DSM was really being developed in the 50s. You know, it doesn't necessarily make its way in there, but I'm hopeful. I've been working with some colleagues, psychiatrists from Yale and Columbia, and we're working actively to get it recognized.
- [08:33]
Andrea Gunning
How would saying concretely this is a diagnosis help the individual or help other people? Like, why would that be important?
- [08:43]
Chris Hart
One of the most important reasons is just a standard label by which we can communicate as professionals, but also communicate with patients. And you know, so you think of any kind of disorder, like major depressive disorder, when we say that all clinical professionals understand the cluster of symptoms that come with that. But then also people who receive that diagnosis, they can associate that label with the symptoms they already feel. So it gives a standard language for people to communicate. That's kind of at the very basic aspect of it. More pragmatically looking for like insurance reimbursement. So insurance is not going to reimburse treatment of something that what are you treating? Well, you're not treating anything that actually exists or that's formally recognized. Other pragmatic concerns are we did a study looking at psychotherapists and the majority of psychotherapists indicated they had worked with someone who they consider to be a pathological liar. But in the absence of this label, they end up giving another diagnosis. And so when you do that, you're, you're somewhat misdiagnosing and then maybe even arguably ineffectively offering a treatment. And that's the last piece of this too is that if you can identify a formal diagnosis, then you can set forth research to look at what is the most effective treatment for this.
- [10:17]
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- [11:23]
Andrea Gunning
Where Caroline is left today is that she's kind of living with two different realities. There was her perspective of what her life was and what her family looked like and what she thought her family looked like. And on the other track, there's the life that Joel was doing behind the scenes. And she now has to kind of integrate those two realities because she has to look back on major memories and wonder what was real and what wasn't real. And so when I look at someone like Caroline, or if I'm Caroline, I don't even know where to start on rebuilding trust or understanding the world in which I live. That's why I find this topic fascinating, because, you know, he lied to her for 20 years.
- [12:05]
Drew Curtis
Our research shows that most people are really good at lying. It's a pretty easy thing for most humans to pull off. And I think we, we go through the world trusting everyone is being honest with us, and especially those people who are close with us. But it's important to remember that they're probably not being fully honest with us all the time, even the people who are the very closest people in our lives. If we catch someone close to us telling us a rather minor lie, it has the same effect as these bigger lies that we're talking about in this case, where we start to question, well, if they lie about this, what else are they lying about?
- [12:41]
Chris Hart
It's a natural proclivity, I believe, to go back and start investigating. And one of the pieces of advice, I'd say, too, is to not necessarily let that overcloud or overshadow places where you did have good experiences.
- [12:55]
Andrea Gunning
But it's easier said than done.
- [12:57]
Chris Hart
Sure. I think another part of that is, is really commitment to where do you want to be now and where do you want to go forward? And I imagine anyone who's been lied to for, for a very long time, that is, is going back, you know, it's going to impact trust of other relationships, or at least, you know, the analogy I use as walls. You know, when you've, when you've lowered your wall and you've been vulnerable and you've gotten crushed, the walls are going to come up probably higher than before, and you're probably going to have a hard time letting people in because you've seen what people can do to you and you're developing these new beliefs that if I let people in, they will crush me, they will lie to me, they will take advantage of me. And those thoughts Those are hard to guard against. Right. But you are making decisions about what it is you want to do. And maybe you do want to keep the walls up, but there's a consequence to that, too, and it's not letting people and who may not do that to you.
- [13:55]
Andrea Gunning
Right. I mean, I imagine your brain is helping you create that story for a sense of safety because your world has just kind of been taken away from you or your perception of what your life was like has been taken away. As much as you want to beat yourself up, people who lie all the time are very good at it.
- [14:14]
Drew Curtis
You know, we do see that people who are really practice a lying get good at it. And one of the things we see is for people that lie prolifically, they have this diminished fear response when they're lying. So probably if any of us were lying, we'd be really nervous about being caught, you know, because for a lot of reasons, like it would destroy our reputations and cause ruptures in our relationships. But. But people who lie a lot and do it every day, that fear response subsides. And so they can lie and their emotional reactions are going to be, you know, about the same as if they were telling you what they had for dinner last night. There's just not much.
- [14:52]
Chris Hart
And the other part you mentioned is blame. You know, you can. You can beat yourself up. Like you said, what. What did I not see? Right. Hindsight's 20 20. How did I not see all these things? And maybe you see them much clearer now. You know, most of us, you know, don't want to catch those awful things. We don't want to be confronted with that even if it's true. And so I think, you know, that aspect too is helping someone deal with beating themselves up for not being super lie detector or. But there is the initial impulse to not necessarily want to know that the person's lying because what that brings about or the consequences of what they were lying about. Yeah.
- [15:32]
Drew Curtis
And especially within the context of romantic relationships and marriages, if I'm going to call my spouse out for lying, does that mean we have to split up? And it gets really complicated and scary really quickly. And it's just so much easier and less frightening to just turn a blind eye to that thing that's giving rise towards suspicion.
- [15:57]
Andrea Gunning
Can people who are pathological liars change? Is there a path for them to move about life in a more honest way if they want to work on it?
- [16:07]
Chris Hart
I think people always have the opportunities to change, and change is kind of the business we're in. And One of those really cognitive behavioral therapy. You know, it's aspects like modeling honesty even when it's hard. So trying to encourage people to be honest even when it's hard, really having those tough conversations, showing that you're willing to have tough conversations with people.
- [16:32]
Drew Curtis
Yeah, I think a lot of it is just the intention to change. Lying is really a social strategy that people adopt and cultivate and reinforce over decades and decades. And it's just like any behavioral pattern, whether it's, you know, alcohol consumption, smoking, using sarcasm, anything that you've been doing for decades, it's hard just to flip the switch and turn it off. But the key and the first step, and Drew and I both hear from these people periodically, is, you know, people decide they finally want to change. They finally hit some point in their lives where they realize that their patterns of lying are causing such upheaval and turmoil that they really have a strong desire to change. I think we can all become more honest than we are right now, but we have to make that a goal. We have to make it a priority. And if we just take one moment every day and think, how can I be more honest about this situation with someone who I care about, that I'm interacting with? We can move that needle. And each day as we practice that habit, we start to see some change. And the change might be gradual, but I assume if everyone made an intention to be more honest every day, if they looked at themselves a year from now, they'd find they've made some considerable progress.
- [17:50]
Andrea Gunning
If you want to hear more of this conversation and see it in video, check out our brand new substack. Just head to Betrayal Substack. That's s u b s t a c k dot com or just go to substack.com search beyond betrayal and hit subscribe. You can find Curtis and Hart's book Big Liars on the American Psychological association website, Amazon or Barnes and Noble foreign. Thank you for listening to Betrayal Season four. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us@betrayalpodmail.com that's betrayalpodmail.com also please be sure to follow us on Instagram betrayalpod and me andreah H. Gunning for all Betrayal content, news and updates. One way to support the series is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Please rate and review Betrayal 5 star reviews. Help us know you appreciate what we do. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with Iheart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Betrayal is hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Kaitlyn golden, also produced by Carrie Hartman and Ben Fetterman. Our Associate producer is Kristin Melchiori. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krychek. Story editing by Monique Laborde, Audio editing and mixing by Matt d' Alvecchio editing by Tanner Robbins and special thanks to Caroline and her family. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines Music Library provided by Ma and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
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