Survivors’ Discussion Continued | BONUS | Saskia’s Story

Summary

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Betrayal Season 5 – BONUS: Survivors’ Discussion Continued | Saskia’s Story

Podcast by iHeartPodcasts & Glass Podcasts
Original Air Date: March 16, 2026

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Episode Overview

This special bonus episode features an extended, honest, and deeply moving roundtable discussion between survivors of sexual betrayal: Ember, Natalie, Stephanie, and Saskia. Moderated by Megan Cutter, Chief of Victim Services at RAINN (Rape, Abuse, and Incest National Network), the episode delves into the nuances of healing, the myth of the "perfect victim," societal attitudes towards survivors, and the impact of public cases like Gisele Pellico and Bill Cosby.

The central theme is survivorship—its complexity, the collective strength found in sharing, and the powerful message that healing is neither linear nor prescriptive. The women share their stories, struggles, doubts, and encouragement for other survivors.

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Key Discussion Points

1. The Nonlinear Journey of Healing

Moderator: Megan Cutter (Chief of Victim Services, RAINN)
(03:38)

• Healing is described as a deeply personal, non-linear process; there is no clear end point or “arrival.”
• Survivors share how their expectations for recovery have changed with time.

Notable Quotes:

• “Healing is not a linear journey. It's not a straight line.” – Megan Cutter [03:38]
• “There's no like arrival... I still think of it almost every day, but it doesn't take my feet out from underneath me.” – Ember [03:58–04:45]
• “I wish it was something where we could just flip a switch and never think about it again.” – Ember [04:10]

2. Redefining Strength and Reclaiming Identity

• Discusses the continued effort to rebuild life and rediscover self-worth after abuse.
• The group shares how connecting with others who’ve experienced similar betrayal has made them feel less alone and more empowered.

Notable Quotes:

• “To see how strong Stephanie was through this gave me more of the, ‘You know what? I'm going to see that I can be a survivor... I can help other people with this.’” – Saskia [06:41]
• “Now to have Natalie and Ember also join this terrible sisterhood that no one wants to be a part of is just really, really powerful.” – Stephanie [07:01]
• “I know I've learned you do have to be a little bit selfish in life just to survive.” – Saskia [07:21]
• “It's a matter of not selfishness but self-preservation.” – Stephanie [08:21]

3. The Power of Community

• The women describe how being part of a peer group (even if one nobody would ever choose) has provided comfort, validation, and understanding without the need for explanation.
• Examples include support found in private conversations, visits, and shared silences.

Notable Moments:

• Stephanie’s connection with Saskia, born from the podcast, blossomed into a real-world friendship and mutual support system. [06:12]
• “We can make sure that nobody else feels as alone as we did.” – Saskia [06:41]

4. Societal Awareness and Media Coverage

• Public cases like Gisele Pellico in France and Bill Cosby in America have raised awareness but also highlight gaps in societal understanding and support for survivors.

Notable Quotes:

• “Better doesn’t necessarily mean good, and what more do we need to do?” – Ember on progress in public attitudes [14:47]
• “She still went forward to bring this abuse onto a national, international spotlight, which was just amazing.” – Stephanie on Gisele Pellico [14:11]
• “Being labeled as [a liar] is just something shameful to carry... sometimes it would just be really hard because, you know, you just have to sit there and kind of take it.” – Natalie [16:07]

5. The “Perfect Victim” Myth

Moderator: Megan Cutter [16:31]

• Dissects expectations society places on survivors, such as reporting immediately or having “respectable” backgrounds.
• Discusses how these false standards can prevent survivors from being believed or from seeking help.

Notable Quotes:

• “Even with that, I was deemed a non-credible witness by the first two police officers... The DA won't pick this up if I don't remember things in a linear way.” – Ember [17:28]
• “I feel like he [her abuser] was given every grace, every opportunity to just shit on me. My mental health, my substance use and abuse. We've been so traumatized already. To have to then put your life on display and talk about your vulnerabilities and defend them... I couldn't have expected the nightmare.” – Saskia [18:08]
• “When someone doesn't match that idea, there can be judgment, there can be shame... Survivorship is not a monolith.” – Megan Cutter [16:46, 19:37]

6. Survivor Guilt and Second-Guessing

• Saskia reflects on her immediate report to police and the resulting trauma for her stepchildren and biological children, expressing guilt for the aftermath and questioning her choices.

Notable Quotes:

• “If I had my wits about me, maybe I would have chosen more self-preservation... We all have to give ourselves grace for our choices and what we had to do to survive.” – Saskia [18:54]

7. Messages to Listeners and Survivors

(20:10–20:53)

• Each survivor offers words of encouragement and solidarity to others who may be listening and struggling in silence.

Notable Quotes:

• “My wish and desire for you is that you would know that you are loved, that you deserve safety and kindness and compassion exactly as you are right now.” – Ember [20:10]
• “The shame is 100% on the perpetrator. And you're not alone.” – Stephanie [20:24]
• “Carrying that shame... isn't yours to carry. It's not ours to carry.” – Natalie [20:43]
• “It's not what happens to you, it's what you do with that and how you respond to it that shows the type of person you are. It's possible to have something so tragic happen to you and still have goodness and hope.” – Saskia [20:53]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:59 – Episode introduction & setup of the survivor group discussion
• 03:38 – Opening the topic of the healing journey
• 04:00-05:35 – Personal reflections on years since discovery and ongoing impact
• 05:46-06:41 – Stephanie and Saskia share about their friendship and mutual support
• 07:21-08:21 – Rebuilding life, learning self-preservation
• 13:53-17:28 – Public cases, societal attitudes, and the myth of the “perfect victim”
• 18:08-19:37 – Saskia and others on not fitting the perfect victim narrative and dealing with guilt
• 20:10-20:53 – Advice and messages for survivors

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Notable Quotes (with Attribution and Timestamps)

• “Healing is not a linear journey. It's not a straight line.” – Megan Cutter (03:38)
• “I wish it was something where we could just flip a switch and never think about it again.” – Ember (04:10)
• “We can make sure nobody else feels as alone as we did.” – Saskia (06:41)
• “It's a matter of not selfishness but self-preservation.” – Stephanie (08:21)
• “Better doesn’t necessarily mean good, and what more do we need to do?” – Ember (14:47)
• “The shame is 100% on the perpetrator. And you're not alone.” – Stephanie (20:24)
• “Carrying that shame... really isn't yours to carry. It's not ours to carry.” – Natalie (20:43)
• “It's not what happens to you; it's what you do with that and how you respond to it that shows the type of person that you are.” – Saskia (20:53)

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Episode Tone

The tone is honest, unwavering, compassionate, and empowering. The participants do not sugarcoat their pain or the complexities of recovery, nor do they minimize the fallout from both personal experience and societal judgment. Throughout, the atmosphere is one of mutual support and shared strength.

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Resources

• Visit rainn.org/betrayal for information and 24/7 support through RAINN's National Sexual Assault Hotline.
• Text HOPE to 64673 or call 1-800-656-HOPE for confidential help.

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If you are a survivor, you are not alone.
For more content and to join the Betrayal community, connect via Instagram @betrayalpod and subscribe to their Substack at betrayal.substack.com.

Transcript

[Andrea Gunning]

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[Andrea Gunning]

I'm Andrea Gunning and this is a bonus episode of Betrayal. For this bonus episode, we'd like to share more excerpts from the Survivors group discussion. Because these women, Ember, Natalie, Stephanie and Saskia had so much more to say than we could fit in one episode. This discussion was moderated by a professional.

[Megan Cutter]

Having conversations with Survivors is really near and dear to not just my heart, but to Rain's heart.

[Andrea Gunning]

Megan Cutter is the Chief of Victim Services at rainn, the Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network. Rain has been working with us throughout Season five.

[Megan Cutter]

Healing is not a linear journey. It's not a straight line. So I want to talk about that concept with all of you and would love to get a sense of like, how do you define healing for you? And I think this can be a conversation of how this feels. How's this show up?

[Andrea Gunning]

So let's talk about healing.

[Ember]

I think that's the hard part. There's no like arrival.

[Andrea Gunning]

That's Ember. It's been two decades since she found out her then fiance was drugging and raping her.

[Ember]

If you had asked me 20 years ago, I would have been like, yeah, by 20 years in, I'm be all better. I'm not even going to think about this anymore. I wish it was something where we could just flip a switch and never think about it again. My capacity has changed though. My ability to not judge myself, that was a huge thing that I had to get over was like, why am I not better? So I went internal with a lot of it for a very long time. I still think of it almost every day, but it doesn't take my feet out from underneath me when I think about it.

[Andrea Gunning]

Then another survivor, Natalie, jumped in like,

[Natalie]

you, Ember, I'm going on 12 years.

[Andrea Gunning]

That's how long it's been since Natalie found images on her son's iPad of her husband assaulting her.

[Natalie]

I remember there being a time years ago where I'm like, no, I'm fine. Like, I could totally handle this. I can deal with it. I'll just keep this inside and shove it in a little box and it's fine. And no it's not because days would pop up and I'm like, ugh, I'm

[Stephanie]

really not fine I think, you know, we all share this common feeling that I don't know how to fix my life after it's completely blown up like this.

[Andrea Gunning]

That's Stephanie. She shared her story in season one of Betrayal Weekly. After 23 years of marriage, she found intimate photos of herself on her husband's laptop.

[Stephanie]

But it was very empowering for me to share my story through the Betrayal Podcast. And the best part of what came out of that is that the podcast producers connected me with Saskia, who is my absolute soul sister.

[Andrea Gunning]

Back when we first met Saskia, we immediately saw the parallels between her and Stephanie's stories, so we connected them via email. Email threads eventually turned into long phone calls, which gave way to a deep friendship. Stephanie even flew out to visit Saskia in Maryland last summer. They watched TV together, went on walks, and when one of them felt overcome with grief or anxiety, they didn't have to explain because they both understood. Here is Saskia.

[Saskia]

You know, to see how strong Stephanie was through this gave me more of the, you know what I'm going to see that I can be a survivor, that I am a survivor, and that I can help other people with this. We can make sure that nobody else feels as alone as we did. I feel like I'm in really good company.

[Stephanie]

And now to have Natalie and Ember also to join this terrible sisterhood that no one wants to be a part of is just really, really powerful.

[Andrea Gunning]

Like the other Survivors, Saskia's effort to rebuild her life is ongoing.

[Saskia]

One thing that was so hard for me is that this was seven years of my life where I thought that I had a wonderful husband and a wonderful family, and I didn't know what to do with those seven years of memories. We had to not only deal with being raped, but also having our whole lives as we knew them fall apart. I wouldn't wish that on anybody, but I think it allows us to kind of build back up and take some of our control back. But I think a necessary part is to gain more confidence, be more aware of our needs and our wants. Right. I know. I've learned that you do have to be a little bit selfish in life just to survive. And I always thought that was a bad word, being selfish. But I think being selfless, you know, really enabled me to be taken advantage of.

[Stephanie]

I think it's a matter of not selfishness, but self preservation. I've learned, and I see that in you also, Saskia. We have finally figured out that we need to prioritize ourselves, our feelings and taking care of ourselves and not just everybody else.

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[Andrea Gunning]

This episode is sponsored by Virgin Voyages. There's something about the ocean. It creates space. And sometimes space is exactly what you need. Virgin Voyages is adults only. No kids, no chaos, no buffets, just beautifully designed spaces, award winning food, and room to actually breathe. Over 20 restaurants are included, plus entertainment, Wi Fi, fitness classes all covered. No surprises. No emotional or financial whiplash. It's not just a vacation. It's perspective. It's reset. It's choosing yourself. And sometimes that's the bravest thing you can do. Plan your escape@virgin voyages.com right around the same time Saskia reached out to us, Gisele Pellico's story was gaining international attention. Giselle is the woman in France whose husband drugged and raped her over the course of a decade and invited dozens of other men to do the same. Megan Cutter, the facilitator for Rainn, brought up Giselle's case with the group.

[Megan Cutter]

When you see stories in the news, in the media over the last year or so, we've seen a lot of conversation about Gisele Pellicot and her story. What's the impact of seeing a story like Giselle's in the media or hearing on the podcast a story similar to your own?

[Stephanie]

I felt like the Gisele Pellico story has been really important in bringing awareness to the whole world that there is such a thing as marital rape, marital sexual abuse. That's Stephanie again, her country gave her the privilege of having her anonymity, but she still went forward to bring this abuse onto a national, international spotlight, which was just amazing.

[Andrea Gunning]

Here's Ember.

[Ember]

I go on TikTok, social media, Instagram, and I can come across just in my scrolling, so many accounts of people talking about sexual abuse. And it's like, okay, people are talking about this in the public square where that was not the case 20 years ago, but is it where it needs to be? No. Let's not just pat ourselves in the back as a culture and say, look at us, we've become so much better at this. It's like better doesn't necessarily mean good, you know, and what more do we need to do?

[Andrea Gunning]

Then Natalie brought up another high profile sexual abuse case, one that saw polarizing public reaction.

[Natalie]

When you said in the media, I remember Bill Cosby, and I was listening to that and just listening to commentary from people just being so angry and wanting to stand up for those victims and trying to educate people on how wrong it is.

[Andrea Gunning]

Bill Cosby was America's dad, but in 2014 and 2015, more than 60 women came forward accusing him of drugging and raping them. The victims were torn apart in the press and online. Many were accused of making these allegations up for fame or financial gain.

[Natalie]

I didn't realize at that time, but I feel exactly what those other victims were feeling. And being labeled as that is just something shameful to carry. People give their opinions and sometimes it would just be really hard because, you know, you just have to sit there and kind of take it.

[Megan Cutter]

We talk a lot at Rainn about the myth of the perfect victim.

[Andrea Gunning]

We think a lot about this myth on betrayal too, how it contributes to some survivors being perceived as more sympathetic, believable, while others are written off.

[Megan Cutter]

The perfect victim, they weren't drinking, they weren't using drugs. They remembered every single moment of their abuse and they remembered member did in order. And they went right to the police and they said, I need help right away. And this idea of what someone quote unquote should do when they experience sexual violence, which is not at all aligned with how trauma works in the brain, how abusers function, like it's not real. And when someone doesn't match that idea, there can be judgment, there can be shame, There can be a lot of putting something on the survivor. Have there been moments when you all have questioned your own experience because of the expectations put on you by that perfect victim dialogue?

[Ember]

When you look at like the perfect victim, I was not a partier I wasn't out drinking regularly. I didn't have a fake id. I never did drugs. Even with that, I was deemed a non credible witness by the first two police officers that I spoke to. And they're like, yeah, your testimony won't stand. You know, the DA won't pick this up if I don't remember things in a linear way. It's so frustrating. I wasn't somebody of ill repute. It didn't make any difference in my case.

[Andrea Gunning]

Then Saskia spoke. She knew firsthand what it meant to be held to that perfect victim standard. She lived through it in her divorce case with Mike.

[Saskia]

I feel like he was given every grace, every opportunity to just shit on me. My mental health, my substance use and abuse. We've been so traumatized already. To have to then put your life on display and talk about your vulnerabilities and defend them. I couldn't have expected the nightmare.

[Andrea Gunning]

Saskia did conform to the perfect victim narrative in at least one way. She rushed to report Mike, her abuser, the moment she realized what was happening.

[Saskia]

But I think back, and if I had my wits about me, maybe I would have chose more self preservation, right? I had two stepdaughters, and as soon as I discovered what happened, they were pulled from my lives and the lives of my kids. My kids had to see me falling to my knees. So I have guilt for some of the things that I did too. You know, I don't think that I'm better than anybody because I chose this path. We all have to give ourselves grace for our choices and what we had to do to survive.

[Megan Cutter]

I am sitting with what each of you have shared and talked about. And I think it's reminding me survivorship is not a monolith. Right? And I imagine for people listening to this too, to hear that there are different ways to navigate this will hopefully make them feel like whatever way they're trying to stay safe is okay and is right and is valid. My last question is, if there's a survivor listening to this, what is it that you wish for them?

[Ember]

My wish and desire for you is that you would know that you are loved, that you deserve safety and kindness and compassion exactly as you are right now.

[Stephanie]

I want any victim, survivor of this to know that she did nothing to cause this. And the shame is 100% on the perpetrator. And you're not alone.

[Natalie]

Carrying that shame is really what kept me from a lot. And it really isn't yours to carry. It's not ours to carry.

[Saskia]

I think I would share that it's not what happens to you, it's what you do with that and how you respond to it that shows the type of person that you are. And it's possible to have something so tragic happen to you and still have goodness and hope and not let anyone take that away from you.

[Andrea Gunning]

For resources on sexual violence, visit rainnn.org betrayal that's R A I N N.org betrayal. You can also get free confidential 24. 7 support through RAINN's National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just text HOPE to 64673 or call 1-800-656, hope you are not alone. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team or want to tell us your story, email [e-mail] that is betrayalpodmail.com or follow us on Instagram betrayalpod To access additional content and to connect with the betrayal community, join our [e-mail] we're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Leah Jablo with additional production by Caitlin Golden. Our supervising producer is Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our Associate producer is Olivia Hewitt. Production management by Kristen Melchiori. Additional support by Curry Richman. Our iHeart team is Ally Perry and Jessica Krynczyk. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins with additional editing and mixing by Matt d'. Alvecchio. Special thanks to Saskia, her friends and family, and special thanks to Will Pearson and Carrie Lieberman. The roundtable discussion was led with the help of rain, the Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network. Thank you to our facilitator Megan Kutter and to Angelina Marcano for her support. Additional thanks to Jennifer Simmons Caleba Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines Music Library, provided by MyB Music and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This episode is sponsored by Virgin Voyages. There's something about the ocean. It creates space. And sometimes space is exactly what you need. Virgin Voyages is adults only. No kids, no chaos, no buffets, just beautifully designed spaces, award winning food and room to actually breathe. Over 20 restaurants are included, plus entertainment, Wi Fi, fitness classes all covered. No surprises. No emotional or financial whiplash. It's not just a vacation. It's perspective. It's reset. It's choosing yourself. And sometimes that's the bravest thing you can do. Plan your escape@virgin voyages.com hey, it's Ryan Seacrest.

[Ryan Seacrest]

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This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.