Updates from Ember, Natalie, and Stephanie | BONUS | Saskia’s Story

Summary

Betrayal Season 5: Updates from Ember, Natalie, and Stephanie | BONUS | Saskia’s Story

Podcast: Betrayal
Host: Andrea Gunning (iHeartPodcasts | Glass Podcasts)
Date: March 23, 2026

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Episode Overview

This bonus episode provides powerful updates on three survivors previously featured in Season 5, Episode 7: Ember, Natalie, and Stephanie. Each woman’s story echoes the season’s central theme—the hidden trauma of intimate partner violence and the courageous path to healing. Through their voices, the episode explores systemic failures, emotional recovery, and the myth of the “perfect victim.” The updates reveal what has changed for them since first sharing their stories, including setbacks, personal milestones, advocacy, and hope.

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Key Discussion Points & Survivor Updates

1. Ember’s Update: Navigating the Legal System and Finding Purpose

(Starts at 03:47)

• Recap: Ember discovered her fiancé John was drugging and raping her; he admitted his crimes to a pastor.
• Therapist’s Confession: John’s therapist broke confidentiality, warning Ember that John was “officially diagnosed as a sociopath” and urging her to leave for her safety (04:45).
• Choosing Not to Press Charges: Ember initially chose not to involve police, conditioning this on John’s commitment to therapy.
  • Quote (05:28): “I said, I'm not going to press charges. I'm not going to go to the police as long as you continue getting the help you need to heal so you don't do this to other people.”
• Escalation and Reporting: Learning John had reoffended, Ember went to the police (05:53).
  • She describes the experience as “retraumatizing,” struggling with memory gaps due to dissociation (06:07).
  • The police dismissed her case for lack of evidentiary proof; only “his words to a pastor in a room” supported her account (06:50).
  • Quote (07:29): “That is the most heartbreaking part of our legal system... You have real victims being courageous enough to come forward, and then nothing can be done.”
• Aftermath: John was never prosecuted. Ember found new strength in moving forward:
  • Celebrated “20 years since she was raped” (08:00)
  • Married a trustworthy partner; has two sons and a fulfilling career.
  • Now works directly with survivors of sex trafficking and exploitation, helping create long-term safety plans.
    • Quote (08:28): “80% of survivors of either trafficking or exploitation will be revictimized within a year if they don't have restorative help alongside them.”
• On Healing: Witnessing and supporting other survivors has brought her healing, too.
  • Quote (09:19): “The instinct is to hide, is to run away from anyone who can observe that pain... In reality you need to lean in... reveal and drag it into the light so it doesn't keep thriving in the darkness.”

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2. Natalie’s Update: Breaking the Secret and Setting Boundaries

(Starts at 09:39)

• Recap: Natalie discovered, while pregnant, that her husband Stephen had created and posted graphic material involving her.
  • Quote (09:50): “You can see his hands, his wedding ring. And then I realized that I am in these images.”
• Living with Shame and Silence: For years, Natalie kept the secret, weighed down by shame and concerns about her children.
  • Quote (10:08): “The shame was really unbearable. Like, who am I going to tell this to?”
• Co-Parenting Challenges: Stephen exploited the situation, blurring boundaries under the guise of visiting their children.
  • Quote (10:51): “He would even come to my house and just knock on the door... My son would be like, ‘Oh, hey, dad. Hey, Mom. Can dad come in or can dad eat with us?’ And I'm like, ugh, okay. I would always give in...”
• Learning to Prioritize Herself: With time, Natalie set firmer boundaries.
  • Quote (11:31): “He shouldn't be this comfortable. I don't have to let him do that. Eventually I'm like, no, enough. You're not going to do this anymore.”
• Telling Her Story: Opening up to her best friend/ex-sister-in-law (Steven’s sister) was a turning point.
  • The friend “chose really victim blaming. That’s another just big blow to me.” (16:51)
• Finding Support and Hope: Therapy, trusted friends, and sisters have been crucial.
  • Quote (17:16): “Talking about it and sharing my secret and letting this go and not carrying so much of it really helped.”
• Considering Justice: After 12 years, she’s contemplating reporting Steven, maintaining all evidence.
  • Quote (17:58): “I have my son's tablet, I have memory cards and I have old cell phones that I just have saved... I feel like I'm ready to.”
  • Consulted a rape crisis center for legal guidance (18:10).
  • Quote (18:16): “What I feel matters, my struggles matter, and what I'm going through matters. So I have to stop protecting him and follow through with what I've been wanting to do for years.”
• Letting Go of the Secret: Natalie powerfully describes her healing:
  • Quote (18:52): “I remember thinking about it like this huge elephant that I was trying to hide behind me... Now it's like the elephant is just further and further and further away from me.”

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3. Stephanie’s Update: Reclaiming the Self and Advocacy

(Starts at 19:12)

• Recap: Stephanie found hundreds of nude photos of herself on her husband’s private Flickr account.
  • Quote (19:18): “He had a Flickr account that was filled with nude photos of me. Hundreds of pictures.”
• Body Image and Trauma: Her discovery led to a complete transformation in her appearance and self-care as a form of protection.
  • Quote (19:41): “When I was married... I cut off all my hair and I wore very plain, baggy, nondescript clothing.”
• Therapy and Recovery: Years later, and through therapy and yoga, Stephanie has begun to reclaim her identity.
  • Quote (20:15): “My trauma was very rooted in the sight of my face and my body... By not taking care of myself... I could keep myself safe from seeing myself. And since the podcast and as I have continued with therapy and yoga, I have been able to reclaim myself again.”
  • Quote (21:30): “When I catch a glimpse of myself in the mirror, it's like, oh, that's actually me. I look like me again.”
• Advocacy for Other Victims: Stephanie wants her story to help others:
  • Quote (21:41): “I strongly believe this is happening to lots of other women out there and they just don't know it yet... I want them to have a softer landing than I had, to have some resources so they don't feel like they are screaming into the void...”
• Rediscovering Hope:
  • Quote (22:18): “For a long time, I thought the dirtiest, most foul word in the human language was hope.”
  • Host Andrea responds: “F*** hope.” (22:26)
  • Stephanie reflects: “There was no hope. And now, yeah, I can be hopeful.” (22:28)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Legal Barriers: “The most heartbreaking part of our legal system as it stands. You have real victims being courageous enough to come forward, and then nothing can be done.” – Ember (07:32)
• The Instinct to Hide: “The instinct is to hide, is to run away from anyone who can observe that pain. And in reality you need to lean in and... drag it into the light so it doesn't keep thriving in the darkness.” – Ember (09:19)
• Letting Go of Shame: “The shame was really unbearable. Like, who am I going to tell this to?” – Natalie (10:08)
• On Reclaiming Self: “By not taking care of myself... I could keep myself safe from seeing myself. And since the podcast and as I have continued with therapy and yoga, I have been able to reclaim myself again.” – Stephanie (20:15)
• On Hope: “For the longest time, I thought the dirtiest... word in the human language was hope. F*** hope. There was no hope. And now, yeah, I can be hopeful.” – Stephanie and Andrea (22:18–22:28)

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Major Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|------------------------------------------------------| | 03:47 | Ember’s update begins | | 04:45 | Therapist warning and Ember’s turning point | | 05:28 | Her condition to not press charges | | 06:07 | Reporting to police and retraumatization | | 07:32 | Legal system “heartbreak” & aftermath | | 08:00 | “20 year anniversary” and new beginnings | | 09:39 | Natalie’s update begins | | 10:08 | Grappling with shame and silence | | 10:51 | Co-parenting and blurred boundaries | | 11:31 | Setting boundaries and self-prioritization | | 16:51 | Disclosing to best friend and facing disbelief | | 17:16 | Finding support and beginning to heal | | 17:58 | Contemplating reporting after 12 years | | 18:52 | Elephant metaphor for secret’s weight | | 19:12 | Stephanie’s update begins | | 19:41 | Trauma and transformation of appearance | | 20:15 | Reclaiming self through therapy and yoga | | 21:41 | Advocacy for newer victims | | 22:18 | Coming to terms with hope |

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Tone and Takeaways

The tone is raw, candid, and ultimately encouraging. The host and guests don’t shy from the complicated, lengthy, and nonlinear nature of healing from trauma. Each survivor’s story underscores that vindication rarely comes swiftly or easily, and meaningful recovery often happens despite systemic inaction. The episode champions solidarity, self-advocacy, and the importance of breaking the silence—no matter how much time has passed.

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Resources:
If you or someone you know is struggling with sexual violence, visit RAINN or call/text their National Sexual Assault Hotline.

Contact:
Email: [e-mail]
Instagram: @betrayalpod | @glasspodcasts
Substack for community and exclusive content: https://betrayal.substack.com/

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Transcript

[Andrea Gunning]

This is an I Heart podcast. Guaranteed human. Okay, now everyone in our Betrayal podcast community, you just have to hear this. Your Sunday nights just got a lot more interesting because Betrayal is now coming to primetime tv. And on tonight's premiere episode, you'll meet Tina. She was dating and having fun with a great guy until an unexpected pregnancy sours the relationship and she finds out he'd been arrested 11 times. I implore you to watch Betrayal, Secrets and Lies starting tonight at 10:00pm 9 Central on ABC and stream on Disney and Hulu.

[Danielle Fishel]

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[Andrea Gunning]

I'm Andrea Gunning and this is a bonus episode of Betrayal. In season five, episode seven, we introduced you to three other survivors of intimate partner violence. Their stories were strikingly similar to Saskia's. And like Saskia, they've each rebuilt in the aftermath of what happened to them. We wanted to give you some updates on where these survivors are today. So let's start with Ember. Remember, her fiance John was drugging and raping her. He confessed everything to their pastor.

[Ember]

The pastor goes, how often has this happened? He goes, this has happened probably once a week, almost the whole time we've been engaged.

[Andrea Gunning]

Still, she planned to stay in the relationship to try to make it work. But then she had a chance encounter with John's therapist. He broke a major rule of his profession by telling her, we've run through

[Ember]

a series of diagnostic tests on your fiance. He's not a safe person. He's officially diagnosed as a sociopath and you should get as far away from him as possible. That was kind of the point where I was like, I can't marry this man.

[Andrea Gunning]

This is the moment where back in episode seven, we paused the story, but we want to tell you what happened next. Even after hearing from John's therapist and ending their relationship, Ember didn't seriously consider going to the police. What mattered to her was ensuring that John didn't hurt other people. And she felt that that was possible without John serving time.

[Ember]

I said, I'm not going to press charges. I'm not going to Go to the police as long as you continue getting the help you need to heal so you don't do this to other people. And he said, okay, yeah, of course. Obviously, I'm going to do that.

[Andrea Gunning]

But before long, John Ember heard through mutual friends that John stopped going to therapy. And whatever treatment he had received hadn't worked.

[Ember]

A friend of ours observed him drugging. Somebody else called me and was like, things are not better. This is escalating. And so that's when I went to the police.

[Andrea Gunning]

But reporting this crime was far from straightforward. Re.

[Ember]

Traumatizing, I guess, would be the best word for it. I was still struggling to put the pieces together. I don't remember everything because I did dissociate. And there are aspects that I don't recall.

[Andrea Gunning]

As a reminder, not only was John drugging Ember, she was dissociating during his attacks. Her mind went completely dark as a way of protecting itself from harm. Her memories were cloudy at best. So when she went to the cops, they dismissed her.

[Ember]

And they're like, we can't really use your testimony. Like, we need this happened at this time and where it happened.

[Andrea Gunning]

On top of that, Ember didn't have the physical evidence necessary to file charges.

[Ember]

I didn't have a sane exam done right after the attack. I didn't have a drug panel done to prove that there was anything in my system. I just had his words to a pastor in a room that that had taken place. They're like, the best we can do is a temporary order of restraint. And even then, once that's up, you kind of have to reapply for it. In order to reapply for it, you have to prove that he's trying to contact you. And so you can't just have this indefinitely. And it was just really disheartening of like, I have no legal ability to protect myself. I have to wait for him to hurt someone else or hurt me in order to prove that he's a dangerous person.

[Andrea Gunning]

Ember's case was at a standstill.

[Ember]

That is the most heartbreaking part of our legal system as it stands. You have real victims being courageous enough to come forward, and then nothing can be done. And you're like, well, then what's even the point of being courageous?

[Andrea Gunning]

John was never brought to justice. But that didn't stop Ember from moving forward with her life today. It's been 20 years since she was raped.

[Ember]

And when I hit that 20 year anniversary, it was very like, whew, I am where I wanted to be.

[Andrea Gunning]

She did finally get married to a man she trusts. They have two sons and she has a great career.

[Ember]

I've been working with survivors kind of as a direct result of what I've been through.

[Andrea Gunning]

She supports victims of sex trafficking and sexual exploitation, especially in creating longer term safety plans.

[Ember]

The statistics tell us that 80% of survivors of either trafficking or exploitation will be re victimized within a year if they don't have restorative help alongside them. So that isn't just like rescue and hope for the best or recover and hope for the best. You really do have to walk alongside them and really giving them the tools they need to identify safe and unsafe people to understand trauma and how that affects us day in and day out.

[Andrea Gunning]

Assisting other survivors has helped ember on her own journey.

[Ember]

I've been able to bear witness to so many other amazing stories that have been healing for me and helpful for me too.

[Andrea Gunning]

She encourages other survivors to reach out to trained professionals for this kind of help. No one has to hold this pain alone.

[Ember]

The instinct is to hide, is to run away from anyone who can observe that pain.

[Andrea Gunning]

And in reality you need to lean

[Ember]

in and you need to show what is happening. You need to reveal and drag it into the light so it doesn't keep thriving in the darkness.

[Andrea Gunning]

Next, we want to share the rest of Natalie's story. She was pregnant when she found graphic sexual material created and posted by her husband Stephen.

[Natalie]

You can see his hands, his wedding ring. And then I realized that I am in these images.

[Andrea Gunning]

It's been over 12 years since that moment. For a long time after she moved out and got a divorce, she mostly kept what she discovered to herself.

[Natalie]

The shame was really unbearable. Like, who am I going to tell this to?

[Andrea Gunning]

On top of the shame, she felt like she had to keep quiet for the sake of her kids. Stephen's voice was still in her head. He was their dad.

[Natalie]

I didn't want my kids to grow up in a divorced or like a single family home. I was ashamed of that too. And it was like the stigma of everything. And I look back now and I think it's not silly but you know, that was my mindset at the time.

[Andrea Gunning]

So for many years, Steven's secret was her secret. They continued to co parent, trading off time with their kids. But Steven would often push the boundaries they'd agreed on.

[Natalie]

He would ask me, I know you're not working today and you have the kids, but I'd like to see them, can we do something together? And I would still agree to it. Sometimes he would even come to my house and just knock on the door and just like, come in my house. And I just wanted to see the kids. I'm like, you can't just do that. My son would be like, oh, hey, dad. Hey, Mom. Can dad come in or can dad eat with us? And I'm like, ugh, okay. I would always give in. I thought it was really better for the kids.

[Andrea Gunning]

It took her a while to see she needed to prioritize herself. That was how to be the best mom she could be.

[Natalie]

He shouldn't be this comfortable. I don't have to let him do that. Eventually I'm like, no, enough. You're not going to do this anymore.

[Danielle Fishel]

This podcast is sponsored by Nurture Life. Hey, it's Danielle Fishel from Pod Meets World. And as a mom to two growing boys, I know how chaotic mealtime can get. No matter how confident I am with what I'm serving them, my kids will always find a way to call the meal gross or stinky or yuck. It's true. They can be wildly picky about new foods. And with my busy schedule, I don't have the time to become America's next Top Chef. And so that's why I love Nurture Life. It's a meal delivery service that actually caters to kids. Ideal for ages 8 months to 8 years, fully cooked and ready to serve in just one minute. It's the problem solver I've been praying for. It's the top meal delivery service for babies, toddlers and kids. And everything is designed by registered dietitians so you can sleep safe knowing your kids are getting the protein, veggies and nutrients they need while still eating favorites like Mac and cheese, spaghetti and meatballs, and so much more. Plus, it's allergy friendly, which we know is clutch. And when it comes to options, Nurture Life has you covered. There's more than 50 nutritious meals and snacks on their menu, from soft finger foods for babies and toddlers to balanced kids meals for when they get older. Nurture Life does the cooking. They deliver it straight to your door. And then you might even have time to eat something for yourself. So now is the time to head to nurturelife.com pod and use code pod for 50% off your first order plus 50 free shipping. That's right, 50% off plus free shipping. Once again, that's nurturelife.com pod and make sure you use promo code pod. Even if you aren't a parent with young kids, you might have parent friends who struggle with mealtime. Make sure to share our Code Pod with them. Remember, put your little ones first with healthy meals from Nurture Life. That website one more time is nurturelife.com pod pod.

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[Andrea Gunning]

Over time, Natalie started setting Firmer boundaries, gaining confidence. And slowly she began opening up to people about what her ex husband Stephen did. One of those people was her best friend, who was also her ex sister in law. If you'll recall, Steven was Natalie's best friend's brother. Back when Steven and Natalie separated, Natalie protected her friend from the truth.

[Natalie]

I didn't want her to know. I didn't want that to change her relationship with her brother. But years later I ended up telling her.

[Andrea Gunning]

Sadly, her friend came to Stephen's defense.

[Natalie]

She didn't want to believe that I was drugged or that he was doing anything like that, that I was probably misunderstanding. She chose really victim blaming. That's another just big blow to me.

[Andrea Gunning]

But there were people who were there for her and who continue to be there for Natalie to this day, like her sisters, her friends and her therapist.

[Natalie]

Talking about it and sharing my secret and letting this go and not carrying so much of it really helped

[Andrea Gunning]

with the support she's received. She's learned how to trust other people again. She's even had romantic relationships, including a fiance who believed her without hesitation or judgment.

[Natalie]

He's been continuously supportive of my process and has helped me feel safe in my trauma.

[Andrea Gunning]

She's also now in a place where after 12 years, she's considering reporting Steven to the authorities. Even after all this time, she's held onto all the evidence of what he did.

[Natalie]

I have my son's tablet, I have memory cards and I have old cell phones that I just have saved that I have not gone back and looked at and I feel like I'm ready to.

[Andrea Gunning]

Recently, she contacted her local rape crisis center to talk through her options legally.

[Natalie]

Just having someone who understands my slow process and can give me legal advice on what I could do about that is helpful. It's been hard for me to accept, like I don't have to put everybody first all the time. What I feel matters, my struggles matter, and what I'm going through matters. So I have to stop protecting him and follow through with what I've been wanting to do for years.

[Andrea Gunning]

None of this feels easy and Natalie still has a lot of hard days. But that secret, Steven's secret, doesn't weigh on her like it once did.

[Natalie]

I remember thinking about it like this huge elephant that I was trying to hide behind me, like by standing in front of it. That's how I felt on the inside. Now it's like the elephant is just further and further and further away from me.

[Andrea Gunning]

Lastly, I want to give an update on Stephanie. She found something terrifying on her husband's computer.

[Stephanie]

He had a Flickr account that was filled with nude photos of me. Hundreds of pictures.

[Andrea Gunning]

We first met her in 2023, when Betrayal Weekly was just an idea. Her story became the show's first two episodes. Back then, she talked about how her discovery affected her relationship with her body.

[Stephanie]

When I was married, I had longish hair and I wore very feminine clothing. And in the days following finding out, I cut off all my hair and I wore very plain, baggy, nondescript clothing.

[Andrea Gunning]

Today, a lot has changed in the few years since we met her. Stephanie's gained a better sense of why she needed to alter her appearance.

[Stephanie]

I saw so many of the images, the photos that he took. And so my trauma was very rooted in the sight of my face and my body. And so in those couple of years after I discovered what he was doing, the sight of my own face and my own body was very triggering for me. It was very difficult to even change my clothes or take a shower. By not taking care of myself, cutting my hair short, and by wearing the baggy clothing, I could keep myself safe from seeing myself. And since the podcast and as I have continued with therapy and yoga, I have been able to reclaim myself again. I'm growing my hair out again. I actually make a little effort with my clothing, and when I catch a glimpse of myself in the mirror, it's like, oh, that's actually me.

[Andrea Gunning]

I look like me again. She's dedicated herself to being an advocate, telling her story in the hopes that new victims will feel less alone.

[Stephanie]

I strongly believe that this is happening to lots of other women out there and they just don't know it yet. And as these women start to discover what's being done to them, I want them to have a softer landing than I had, to have some resources so they don't feel like they are screaming into the void saying, am I the only person in the world that this ever happened to?

[Andrea Gunning]

She also wants those people to know that there is life to live after a crime like this.

[Stephanie]

For a long time, I thought the dirtiest, most foul word in the human language was hope.

[Andrea Gunning]

Fuck hope.

[Stephanie]

There was no hope. And now, yeah, I can be hopeful.

[Andrea Gunning]

For resources on sexual violence, visit rainn.org betrayal. That's R A I N N.org betrayal. You can also get free confidential 24. 7 support through RAINN's National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just text HOPE to 64673 or call 1-800-656-HOPE you are not alone. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team, or want to tell us your story? Email [e-mail] that is betrayalpodmail.com or follow us on Instagram betrayalpod to access additional content and to connect with the Path Betrayal community. Join our [e-mail] we're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning Written and produced by Kaitlyn golden with additional production by Olivia Hewitt. Our supervising producer is Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our Associate producer is Leah Jablo. Production management by Kristen Melcuri. Additional support by Curry Richman. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krynczyk. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins with additional editing and mixing by Matt d'. Alvecchio. Special thanks to Saskia, her friends and family and special thanks to Will Pearson and Carrie Lieberman. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines Music Library provided by MyB Music and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Danielle Fishel]

This podcast is sponsored by Nurture Life. Hey, it's Danielle Fishel from Pod Meets World. And as a mom to two growing boys, I know how chaotic mealtime can get. No matter how confident I am with what I'm serving them, my kids will always find a way to call the meal gross or stinky or yuck. It's true, they can be wildly picky about new foods, and with my busy schedule, I don't have the time to become America's Next Top Chef. And so that's why I love Nurture Life. It's a meal delivery service that actually caters to kids. Ideal for ages 8 months to 8 years. Fully cooked and ready to serve in just one minute. It's the problem solver I've been praying for. It's the top meal delivery service for babies, toddlers and kids. And everything is designed by registered dietitians so you can sleep safe knowing your kids are getting the protein, veggies and nutrients they need while still eating favorites like Mac and cheese, spaghetti and meatballs, and so much more. Plus, it's allergy friendly which we know is clutch. And when it comes to options, Nurture Life has you covered. There's more than 50 nutritious meals and snacks on their menu. From soft finger foods for babies and toddlers to balanced kids meals for when they get older. Nurture Life does the cooking. They deliver it straight to your door. And then you might even have time to eat something for yourself. So now is the time to head to nurturelife.com pod and use code pod for 50% off your first order plus free shipping. That's right, 50% off plus free shipping. Once again, that's nurturelife.com pod and make sure you use promo code pod. Even if you aren't a parent with young kids, you might have parent friends who struggle with mealtime. Make sure to share our Code Pod with them. Remember, put your little ones first with healthy meals from Nurture Life. That website one more time is nurturelife.com podpod

[Poshmark Announcer]

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[Andrea Gunning]

Ever feel like your bedroom's shrinking? Don't worry, you don't have to sell your favorite things to make space with Ikea Bedroom Storage Solutions. Think dressers, wardrobes, full closet systems, even storage boxes. You can keep it all. Your vintage band tees safe, those limited edition sneakers, plenty of room. And yes, your childhood teddy bear gets a spot too. Don't sell what you love. Store it instead with Ikea Bedroom Storage Solutions. Shop now@IKEA US bedroomstorage.

[Jacob Goldstein]

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[Andrea Gunning]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.