AT&T Business Wireless Advertiser/Voice (2:25)

Not every sale happens at the register before AT&T business Wireless. Checking out customers on our mobile pos Systems took too long. Basically a staring contest where everyone loses. It's crazy what people will say during an awkward silence. Now transactions are done before the silence takes hold. That means I can focus on the task at hand and make an extra sail or two. Sometimes I do miss the bonding time.

Liberty Mutual Spokesperson (possibly a voice actor) (2:49)

Sometimes AT&T business, wireless connecting changes everything.

Andrea Gunning (3:05)

I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal. Today we have another bonus episode. Now that season five is over, I wanted to get the whole team together, our producers, our editors, to talk about how the season came to be and all of the moments that stuck with us along the way.

Betrayal Podcast Host/Announcer (3:23)

Here's our conversation.

Andrea Gunning (3:25)

Hi, everybody.

Tanner Robbins (3:26)

Hi.

Matt Dalvecchio (3:27)

Hi.

Andrea Gunning (3:28)

We did this last year where after we released season four, we got together and talked about all of our favorite moments, what it was like producing the season, and I thought that it would be kind of fun to do it again. Maybe where we can start is going around and everyone introduce themselves and tell a little bit about how you worked on the show.

Caitlin Golden (3:51)

Yeah, sure. Hi, I'm Caitlin golden, and I helped to produce this season.

Carrie Hartman (3:56)

Hi, I'm Carrie Hartman, also a producer.

Monique Laborde (3:59)

I'm Monique Laborde. I'm the story editor on the last two seasons of Betrayal.

Matt Dalvecchio (4:05)

I'm Matt Dalvecchio. I am a sound engineer on Betrayal.

Tanner Robbins (4:10)

And I'm Tanner Robbins. I am one of the audio editors.

Andrea Gunning (4:15)

I think a really great place to start is how we found the story in the first place. I think this question goes to Caitlin. Can you tell us a little bit about how this season and how Saskia's story came to be?

Caitlin Golden (4:29)

Yeah. I started at Glass about two years ago as an associate producer when Carrie and Mo were running production on Betrayal. And one of my big jobs was going through the email inbox where people, you know, write in with their thoughts about the show, but also kind of most importantly, they're writing with their own stories of betrayal.

Monique Laborde (4:53)

So Saskia, she sent an email September 2024, which is the same month that Gisele Pellico went to trial for the rape case of her husband. I actually pulled up her initial email. I want to read it. It's pretty short. She said, hello, I live in Maryland, and I was married to, hold for it, the man of my dreams. Everyone thought he was smart and kind and successful. Ended up he was doing horrible things to me while I was unconscious, night after night. And broadcasting this to strangers on a widespread scale. In between being the perfect husband, father, and stepfather, things only got worse when I found out what he was doing. And we went through a legal battle. Quote, raping your wife, end quote, apparently was not a crime in Maryland, so we had to have police contact tech experts in these camming websites to get the footage for Court. I would really like to tell my story. I can so relate to these women that I am watching on your show. Let me know if someone can contact me. I think it would be cathartic for me. Heart emoji. Thank you, Saskia. So, yeah, it's taken a year and a half to get here, where the story's officially out and the season's over, but it's been a real team effort.

Caitlin Golden (6:00)

Dre, I'm curious. When you go back to the moment that you were like, this needs to be a season as opposed to a single episode, is there something that stands out for you, a scene in your mind where you first really remember connecting to the story?

Andrea Gunning (6:18)

I think, for me, the fact that he could watch this person spiral, wake up with black eyes, wake up on the bathroom floor, feel like she is going crazy, feel like she is just now destined to walk the same path as her father who struggled with mental health, and to know that you were doing something in the dark that could contribute to that is just so cruel to me. That's why I thought this was a really good season. Like, the two things that were happening light of day and in the darkness.

Carrie Hartman (7:01)

One thing that we've learned throughout the five seasons of Betrayal is that perpetrators like Mike, they're actors. They're acting out the part of a loving husband or a great stepfather, but they're really actors. And once you accept and understand that, it's easier to see that all of it, it's like a giant fraud.

Andrea Gunning (7:32)

Yeah. The other aspect of the story that I just was, like, from an emotional point of view, I think I've always really wanted to dismantle the idea of the perfect victim, because I feel like we just really default to this understanding of righteous rape, that the only person that's worthy of saying, I had this crime of rape done to me is this pristine victim that was plucked off the street and this happened. Saskia's story kind of defies that archetype, but it still doesn't change what happened to her. And so it allowed us to really examine that myth in a really big way, not just through the criminal trial, but really the divorce trial. So for that reason, I feel like that's why I really wanted to make this season.

Caitlin Golden (8:28)

Totally.

Andrea Gunning (8:29)

What about you?

Caitlin Golden (8:30)

I remember in that initial phone call, she's telling the story, and then all of a sudden, she gets to the point in her story where he only gets 18 months in jail, and she says, this was completely legal in my state. And I was like, wait, what? How in the world.

Matt Dalvecchio (8:46)

I think that was the thing that surprised me and shocked me the most this season was the fact that that law was on the books at the time was just. It really hit me a little bit because, like, I don't understand how that could even be.

Andrea Gunning (9:03)

Tanner, you knew nothing going into this season about the story and the creative. You're literally getting scripts from Caitlin and learning as you go.

Tanner Robbins (9:14)

Yeah, I usually get the first draft of the episode when it's ready to go into the edit.

Andrea Gunning (9:21)

Can you tell me what it was like working on this season? What moment most surprised you and what do you feel like was the most impactful?

Tanner Robbins (9:31)

What shocked me maybe the most in the story was a quote from the perpetrator, Mike. I think it was during the divorce trial that he didn't believe in his heart that he raped her. Mike is having sex with his unconscious wife. What did he think that he was doing? If he was not raping her, what did he think that was? That was what was most shocking to me. Even after admitting to committing this crime, than go to a different court and say the exact opposite.

Andrea Gunning (10:12)

There is an entitlement there that exists in our society. Whether or not he knew what the laws were in Maryland, he already felt entitled to her body in a way, however he wanted it. And then there are laws that exist in the state in which he lives with his wife that embolden and validate that entitlement. Those two things, I think, have been interconnected and working for each other since the creation of this country.

Matt Dalvecchio (10:46)

That goes kind of hand in hand to. The most impactful thing, is that this case and other cases that have come up recently have helped change these laws, and these laws are changing. And I think it's good to see that lawmakers, at least are waking up to some of this.

Liberty Mutual Spokesperson (possibly a voice actor) (11:20)

And, Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual, even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show.

Serving Pancakes Podcast Host (11:29)

Hey, everyone.

Liberty Mutual Spokesperson (possibly a voice actor) (11:30)

Check out this guy and his bird. What is this, your first date?

Liberty Mutual Spokesperson (possibly a voice actor) (11:33)

Oh, no. We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird.

Liberty Mutual Spokesperson (possibly a voice actor) (11:40)

Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.

Liberty Mutual Spokesperson (possibly a voice actor) (11:41)

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Liberty Mutual Spokesperson (possibly a voice actor) (11:45)

Liberty. Liberty. Liberty.

Serving Pancakes Podcast Host (11:48)

On the serving pancakes podcast, conversations about volleyball go beyond the court. Today we have A little best friend compatibility test. Okay, and how long have we been best friends for? Since the day we met. As the League1 volleyball season heads towards its final stretch, there's no better time to tune in. We really are like yin and yang, vodka and tequila. You'll hear unfiltered analysis, behind the scenes stories and conversations with leaders making an impact across the sport. Today we have Logan Lednicky. I feel like our fan base in general is very connected. It's like a comforting feeling getting to play at home. Whether you're following the final push of love season or just love the game, serving Pancakes brings you closer to the action and the people shaping the future of volleyball. Jordan Thompson had that microphone out. God forbid we make mistakes or cuss at our coach like one time or two times. Open your free iHeartradio app. Search serving Pancakes and listen now. This has been serving Pancakes. And we'll catch you on the flip side, okay?

Silk Protein Advertiser/Voice (12:44)

Presented by Capital One, founding partner of

AT&T Business Wireless Advertiser/Voice (12:47)

iHeart Women's Sports

Liberty Mutual Spokesperson (possibly a voice actor) (12:50)

and Doug. There's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual. Even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show.

Liberty Mutual Spokesperson (possibly a voice actor) (13:00)

Hey, everyone, check out this guy and his bird. What is this, your first date?

Liberty Mutual Spokesperson (possibly a voice actor) (13:03)

Oh, no. We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird.

Liberty Mutual Spokesperson (possibly a voice actor) (13:10)

Yeah, the bird looks out of your league anyways.

Liberty Mutual Spokesperson (possibly a voice actor) (13:12)

Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty.

Liberty Mutual Spokesperson (possibly a voice actor) (13:16)

Liberty. Liberty. Liberty.

Andrea Gunning (13:19)

We often talk about amends. What does amends really look like? Once you've understood that you've done something wrong and you've deeply hurt somebody, you're operating from a place of harm reduction. What can I do to repair, do less harm and own up to my mistakes? And when you look at how things played out in the divorce, someone who understands that they've done something wrong, understands the impact of their behavior and actions towards another person, would say, you know what? No fault divorce. Let me make this really easy for you. Let me do as little harm in this process to Saskia. That would be the right thing to do. He did not do that. As much as it is to tell Saskia's story, we are in a way telling the Mike Levingood story of what he did to his wife. And I'm a human being. I think about the fact that he's trying to rebuild, but I also think about the fact of, like, what has this person done to restore and help support Saskia?

Monique Laborde (14:31)

This is something Carrie and I have been talking about. So Carrie had produced seasons one through four, and when this season came around, Carrie actually stepped out to produce another show at Glass, Burden of Guilt. And that is a redemption arc story. People should go listen to it. The perpetrator genuinely puts in the work to make amends for. For something heinous that he did in his past. And there's something Carrie and I have been talking about here with season five of betrayal, with Saskia's story, because, like, we don't set out to demonize these perpetrators. We set out to report the story. Survivors come to us, write to us, and we work with them. But if there was genuinely an effort that Mike Levengood had made to acknowledge the harm he had done, to make amends, you know, and he did plead guilty, like, he had the opportunity to use that to make a statement to her, to not put her through the divorce trial. She did. And like you were saying, Andrea, like, he did not take those opportunities. And so we can't report a redemption arc because it isn't there, and it's disappointing, honestly.

Caitlin Golden (15:35)

I think the thing that makes this season different in terms of that amends and accountability piece is that we're talking about a perpetrator who has gone on to make an entire career off of his criminal past. And to me, the most shocking tape of the entire season comes at the end of episode nine, where you hear Trey recounting the phone call with Mike Levengood. And I was in the room for that call, so I remember it very well. And Trey gets on the line, tells Mike that we want to tell this story about his business and about his relationship with Saskia Inwood. And the tone in Mike's voice was just so shocking. Like, you could tell he really did not see the connection between what he did to Saskia and what he is doing in his business now. It's like he has had to sever something in his mind in order to move forward with his life, and that's a privilege that Saskia will never be afforded.

Andrea Gunning (16:48)

I'm so curious. This goes to the editors. What is your favorite episode of the season? And why?

Tanner Robbins (16:55)

The courtroom, the criminal trial? Maybe it's just because I love tape in the field. It's one thing to hear somebody tell their story. It's another thing to hear it happening in real time and hearing the judge see through Mike's lies. You know, when you hear defense attorneys and witnesses saying all these things that you know are not true or are just being spun in this way, and then to hear the person with the power see through it and make the right decision. It's just so satisfying.

Matt Dalvecchio (17:32)

Truthfully, I don't have a favorite episode, but I do second a lot of what you said, Tanner. It's always refreshing whenever a judge takes a minute to reprimand somebody who just thinks that he's flying pretty. It feels like a good moment whenever you get to hear a judge say, actually, you're completely wrong. That was definitely impactful for me too.

Monique Laborde (17:55)

Yeah.

Andrea Gunning (17:55)

And sometimes you can have all the evidence, the videos, the photos, and it's still and may not be enough, but in this case, the judge really saw, and I'm so grateful.

Caitlin Golden (18:06)

Carrie, I was gonna ask you, you know, having worked on this show in every iteration of it, having worked with so many different subjects, what to you really resonated this season?

Carrie Hartman (18:21)

I think we knew even before the Gisele Pellico story came out. This kind of crime is a trend. It's underreported, and it's probably underreported because people are too shame filled to report it.

Caitlin Golden (18:37)

Yeah.

Monique Laborde (18:37)

And it's under prosecuted.

Carrie Hartman (18:40)

I really feel good when we are bringing things to the surface that might be uncomfortable or even unrealized by a good portion of the public, because you never know when one of our audience members might be waking up in the morning unsure of what happened the night before or feeling odd. And it's just information and education that it's okay to question.

Caitlin Golden (19:05)

Totally. And, I mean, with the idea that this is a trend for me, one of the most impactful parts of this season was talking to all of these other women who had experienced this crime. We did also include these stories of Natalie, Ember, and Stephanie. And watching the three of them in their progression and their healing journey has been really impactful, too. I mean, Dre and I talk all the time about Natalie in particular. She'd never heard of a story like her own until she heard Stephanie's episodes on Betrayal Weekly. And when I first got on the phone with her, she was incredibly nervous. And over the course of many, many months, we had lots of conversations back and forth about, do you want to tell your story now? Is later down the line a better time? What level of anonymity do we want to use? She eventually felt comfortable. And when we had that roundtable conversation with all of these other survivors, it was like a different woman was in that room. Like, our hope as a show is always the people that we're working with, we are able to impact their lives in some little way. That by helping them tell their story. We are helping them on their healing journey. But I think that was one of the first times where I, as someone who's really new to this field, saw right before my eyes like, this is someone who's transformed. There was just a brightness in her face that made me incredibly emotional.

Carrie Hartman (20:38)

I mean, that's the thing is realizing that you're not alone.

Andrea Gunning (20:43)

I felt that way when I was listening to the bonus episode with the case updates.

Caitlin Golden (20:47)

Yeah.

Andrea Gunning (20:48)

And I honestly got choked up listening to Stephanie at the very end.

Caitlin Golden (20:53)

Spoilers.

Andrea Gunning (20:54)

If anyone hasn't listened to that bonus episode, it's an update on Ember, Natalie, and Stephanie. And when Carrie and I first talked to Stephanie, she was wearing baggy clothes. She had chopped off all of her hair. She couldn't even look in the mirror. And she's just now reclaiming her body. And that's the work that she's done. But to see that happen from meeting her two years ago, it's astonishing to see what she's done and the work that she's put in and how she came out on the other side. It's cool.

Caitlin Golden (21:30)

It's really cool.

Monique Laborde (21:31)

When people ask, which they often do. Oh, it must be so hard to work on stories like this. The antidote for me is really getting to see the healing and the connections and the progress the survivors are making. And to see that the telling of their story was helpful in that is actually more impactful for me in the end than the worst part of their story that we hear.

Andrea Gunning (21:54)

Mm. Well, thank you all for your hard work this season. It was a difficult season to produce. It was an emotional one to produce, and, you know, we deal with really tough subject matter. But I'm really proud of the season and I'm proud of everyone's work on it, and so thank you.

Betrayal Podcast Host/Announcer (22:18)

For resources on sexual violence, visit rainnn.org betrayal that's R A I N N.org betrayal. You can also get free confidential 24. 7 support through RAINN's National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just text HOPE to 64673 or call 1-800-656-HOPE you are not alone. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your story, email us@betrayalpod.com that is betrayalpodmail.com or follow us on Instagram etrayalpod to access additional content and to connect with with the Betrayal community, join our substack@betrayal.substack.com we're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Kaitlin Golden. Our Supervising producer is Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Olivia Hewitt and Leah Jablo. Production management by Kristin Melchiori. Additional support by Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krynczyk. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins with additional editing and mixing by Matt d'.

Andrea Gunning (24:03)

Alvecchio.

Betrayal Podcast Host/Announcer (24:04)

Special thanks to Saskia, her friends and family and special thanks to Will Pearson and Carrie Lieberman. The Trail's Theme is composed by Oliver Baines Music Library provided by MyB Music and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever

Andrea Gunning (24:21)

you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart podcast.

Betrayal Podcast Host/Announcer (24:33)

Guaranteed Human.