A Conversation with RAINN | BONUS | Saskia’s Story

Summary

Betrayal Weekly: "A Conversation with RAINN | BONUS | Saskia’s Story"

Podcast: Betrayal Weekly
Host: Andrea Gunning
Guest: Jennifer Simmons Caleba (VP of Communications, RAINN)
Producer: Caitlin (appears briefly)
Date: April 23, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this bonus episode, host Andrea Gunning sits down with Jennifer Simmons Caleba, Vice President of Communications at RAINN (the Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network), to discuss responsible storytelling around sexual violence. The conversation centers on RAINN's role in consulting with Betrayal Weekly, how language and media can both help and hinder survivor narratives, and the importance of evolving approaches as cultural awareness shifts. Reflections on past seasons—including how to handle survivor language and trauma comparatives—are explored with a focus on best practices and intentionality.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Introduction and Purpose

• Trauma-Informed Storytelling:
  • Andrea opens by highlighting the show's careful handling of sensitive topics (rape, child sexual abuse, financial fraud, etc.) and the show's effort to evolve by consulting RAINN (03:35).

RAINN's Mission and Partnership

• What is RAINN?
  • Jennifer: "RAINN is the nation's largest antisexual violence organization... my role is to ensure that people are more aware and educated about what sexual violence is... if you or somebody in your life has experienced sexual violence, that you have people to turn to." (04:36)
• Responsible Storytelling in Media:
  • RAINN works with entertainment and media to embed responsible, relevant narratives about sexual violence. They trained the Betrayal team and advised during season five (05:11).

Creator Responsibility & Reassessment

• Reflecting on Past Work:
  • Andrea asks about the obligation creators have to address outdated content.
  • Jennifer: “I think what I hope people who are creating this kind of content do is that they give themselves a degree of grace for what they knew at the time... and if they get it really wrong... clear discussion or apology... and then they move forward and change the behavior...” (06:23)

Language: "Victim" vs "Survivor"

• Naming Control:
  • Jennifer: "Yeah, the hard and fast rule is it's what the person wants to be called and respecting that and respecting what it means to them." (07:46)
• Ongoing Conversation:
  • Andrea notes the importance of continuously checking in with subjects across episodes as their relationship to their trauma and identification may change (08:04).
  • Jennifer affirms, emphasizing both the storyteller's and audience’s perspectives (08:37).

Use of Correct Terms for Sexual Violence Materials

• CSAM and Lay Language:
  • Andrea discusses whether to use the technical term "CSAM" or more colloquial (but inappropriate) terminology.
  • Jennifer: "I'm gonna say the words that people will say...kiddie porn. That's what CC, it's kiddie porn. No, no, no, no. But when you say child sexual abuse material, [for some]...they have no idea what that actually means. But...if they knew what it meant, they'd be like, oh my God, that's horrible. So, like, explaining and breaking down why the sentence doesn't work, but acknowledging that people may need to see that to make that next connection is important." (09:13)
• Progress in Naming Sexual Violence:
  • Jennifer describes how, years ago, networks avoided the word "rape," whereas now even laypeople name it directly, as demonstrated in Saskia’s story: “She’s being raped... That is progress.” (10:12)

Navigating Multiple Victim Perspectives & Comparative Trauma

• Balancing Perspectives:
  • Caitlin, the producer, asks Jennifer how to approach stories involving multiple victims and avoid competing trauma narratives (11:12).
• Ripple Effect Analogy:
  • Jennifer: "...a handful of different size rocks that you throw into water. No matter the size... there is a ripple. But every single person is the center of their own ripple... if we acknowledge that everybody’s ripples matter... then we can stop comparing the trauma of other people.” (12:08)
• Making Space for Different Realities:
  • Andrea: “To me, it's not a zero sum. There's space for every version of this conversation...” (12:56)

Purposeful Storytelling

• Intentionality Matters:
  • Andrea: “The clarity for me is purpose is just doing it intentionally. What is the purpose if one person feels less alone by listening to this? We've done our job because that was the intention going into the project.” (13:50)
  • Jennifer agrees (14:03).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jennifer Simmons Caleba on Creator Accountability:
  • “Give themselves a degree of grace for what they knew at the time... and if they get it really wrong, that they have some sort of clear discussion or apology... and then they move forward and change the behavior...” (06:23)
• Jennifer on Language Choice:
  • “The hard and fast rule is it's what the person wants to be called and respecting that...” (07:46)
• On Naming Abuse Directly:
  • “She was raped. That is progress... you go from not talking about rape, not saying the word rape 30 some odd years ago, to a everyday individual... naming it immediately.” (10:12)
• Jennifer’s Ripple Analogy:
  • “Every single person is feeling a impact, feeling a ramification... as long as we acknowledge that everybody’s ripples matter... we can stop comparing the trauma...” (12:08)
• Andrea on Intentional Impact:
  • “If one person feels less alone by listening to this? We've done our job...” (13:50)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• RAINN's Role and Purpose: 04:36–05:11
• Responsible Storytelling & Creator Obligations: 05:50–07:28
• Language: Victim vs. Survivor: 07:28–08:38
• CSAM, Language, & Cultural Progress: 08:38–10:12
• Comparative Trauma & Multiple Perspectives: 11:12–12:56
• Episode’s Purpose and Intentionality: 13:34–14:03

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Tone and Language

The tone throughout is compassionate, thoughtful, and trauma-informed, emphasizing respect for survivors’ preferences and the power of language. Both Andrea and Jennifer speak with humility, openness to learning, and dedication to evolving ethical storytelling practices. The conversation reflects a commitment to centering survivor voices and being thoughtful about how media portrays stories of sexual violence and betrayal.

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Summary for New Listeners

This episode is a behind-the-scenes glimpse at how betrayal stories are crafted with survivor well-being and responsible storytelling in mind. The conversation between Andrea Gunning and Jennifer Simmons Caleba provides valuable insight into the evolving practices of sensitive narrative work, the importance of using survivor-preferred language, and the practical and ethical concerns facing content creators today. It's an essential listen for anyone interested in advocacy, storytelling, or media ethics around trauma and resilience.

Transcript

[Andrea Gunning]

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[Jennifer Simmons Caleba]

the

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[Andrea Gunning]

I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal. Today we have another bonus episode on our show. We tackle sensitive topics from rape and child sexual abuse to financial fraud and identity theft. We handle this work with a lot of care, using trauma, informed interviewing techniques, consulting mental health experts, and communicating with our subjects in every step of production. But we're always trying to do better and to evolve as our culture evolves. That's why last year we reached out to rainn, the Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network. Throughout season five, they've been advising us on ways to approach our work with survivors. Recently, I sat down with Jennifer SIMMONS Caleba, she's RAINN's vice president of communications. I wanted to share a bit of our conversation with you and to give you a look into the kinds of conversations we're often having at Betrayal. I hope you enjoy. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your position at RAINN and what RAINN is?

[Jennifer Simmons Caleba]

RAINN is the nation's largest antisexual violence organization. I'm the vice president of communications. So my role is to ensure that people are more aware and educated about what sexual violence is. And the work that I get to do is make sure that more people understand that the resources are there, that they are not alone, and that if you or somebody in your life has experienced sexual violence, that you have people to turn to.

[Andrea Gunning]

How would you define RAINN's role in working with betrayal?

[Jennifer Simmons Caleba]

So one of the things that RAINN does is we work with entertainment companies and studios and producers to insert and establish responsible and relevant storytelling in the journey of making people more aware through storytelling about sexual violence. So we worked with you guys. We did a responsible storytelling training session with you. We've worked with you when it comes to interviewing survivors during season five of Betrayal. And it's just been such a pleasure to be able to be a part of both the education and also the advancement of this responsible storytelling that you guys are doing at Betrayal.

[Andrea Gunning]

You know, when I look back on the canon of Betrayal, there are certain things that our team would probably write differently today. I'm curious, from your point of view, when you look back on a body of work that still survives and exists in the world and is there for people to meet it at any given time, what type of obligation do creators and writers have to address that work if it's outdated culturally with language? Like, what do you feel is the obligation of those producers and creators?

[Jennifer Simmons Caleba]

It's a really interesting question, particularly for something that you put out into the world and then still have some measure of control over. You produce a movie or a film, you produce a book, and it goes out there. And the level of effort that it would take to recut, redo, republish, all of that is a challenge. But for serialized shows like yours, the question of going back and looking at the things that you wish you had done differently is a really valid one. And I think what I hope people who are creating this kind of content do is that they give themselves a degree of grace for what they knew at the time and for the best that they were doing at a time, and that if they get it really wrong, that they have some sort of clear discussion or apology or, hey, that really was not what I wanted to do. And then they move forward and change the behavior, and then they change how they approach, because that's really the measure, and that's really where the learning happens.

[Andrea Gunning]

Yeah. I think one of the places that we often struggle with is the language around Victim and Survivor. And I'm curious if there is, like, a hard and fast rule for you in terms of that language.

[Jennifer Simmons Caleba]

Yeah, the hard and fast rule is it's what the person wants to be called and respecting that and respecting what it means to them. And then the idea that if you get it wrong, you say that somebody is something that they don't feel they want to be, you change it, you say you're sorry, you change it.

[Andrea Gunning]

It's interesting because we tell stories over 10 episodes, and in those 10 episodes where we're talking about one person's story, it's one person's journey. So episode to episode, they can be in a different place in relation to what happened to them. And that language can be tricky to know. And I think you're validating something for me, which is having constant conversations with our storytellers to be like, at this point in the story, how would you identify? You know?

[Jennifer Simmons Caleba]

Yeah.

[Andrea Gunning]

But also holding in consideration where the audience is meeting this person in this journey too. So for season two of Betrayal, I remember a big discussion was, does our audience know what CSAM is? And does our audience know why we can't say what people would colloquially say that material is curious what your thoughts are. Even just saying it as a manner of explaining and showing why we're not going that route. Like, how. How do you feel about that?

[Jennifer Simmons Caleba]

We talk about this with media training a lot. So I'm gonna say the words that people will say that. So you're gonna say kiddie porn. That's what cc, it's kiddie porn. No, no, no, no. But when you say child sexual abuse material, for the person who has no connection, they have no idea what that actually means. But you know that that person, if they knew what it meant, they'd be like, oh, my God, that's horrible. So, like, explaining and breaking down why the sentence doesn't work, but acknowledging that people may need to see that to make that next connection is important. And that's something that in the media, people are now getting really comfortable with. But if we go back to the beginnings of rainn in the 90s, when we were trying to get people to recognize that this issue was important, networks weren't saying rape on tv.

[Andrea Gunning]

Right.

[Jennifer Simmons Caleba]

And it's so important. So, you know, euphemisms around rape as a storytelling device because you couldn't say the words like, so how important is it to be able to say, you know, all these, all these kind of workaround phrases, what you're actually talking about is rape. And that's actually something I saw with Saskia this season. And it struck me, one of her friends saw the videos and. And instantly the words that came out of her mouth were, she's being raped. There was no hesitation, no working around it, no, her husband is doing something terrible to nothing. She was raped. That is progress. You go from not talking about rape, not saying the word rape 30 some odd years ago, to a everyday individual who is looking at something happening through the lens too, of intimate partner violence and naming it, naming it immediately. That's the kind of progress we're talking about.

[Andrea Gunning]

Then my producer Caitlin chimed in.

[Caitlin (Producer)]

In season three, we were telling the story from the perspective of both Stacey and Tyler Tyler being a child victim of sexual abuse and Stacy being a mother who had her life absolutely torn apart by what her husband did to her son. I think as a show, we've changed our approach a little bit in how we've learned to balance the perspectives of multiple victims without getting into that comparative trauma piece. And I also think as creators, we struggle with, well, are there ways we could have done even better as storytellers in doing right by the victim of child abuse? So at Rain, when you think about that issue of how do you tell stories from the perspectives of multiple victims, what are some of the strategies that

[Jennifer Simmons Caleba]

come to mind to the point of comparative trauma in any kind of storytelling? I think about it as a handful of different size rocks that you throw into water. No matter the size of the rock, there is a ripple. But every single person is the center of their own ripple. Every single person is feeling a impact, feeling a ramification, an emotion. They are all coming to it from their own center of the story. And as long as we acknowledge that everybody's ripples matter to that person at the center of them, then we can stop comparing the trauma of other people and then just start thinking about the individual humans involved.

[Andrea Gunning]

To me, it's not a zero sum. There's space for every version of this conversation and that's something that we're often discussing. You know, I knew that the way that Stacey in season three, the way that she talked about her ex husband would be really difficult for people to hear. But I also knew that there were people who were alone in bed in the middle of the night, staring at their ceiling, thinking, I just wish my life could go back to before times, before the knowing, before everything came apart.

[Jennifer Simmons Caleba]

It was the version of my life where I didn't have to be wrestling with all of these terrible thoughts and feelings. And yeah, the purpose of all of these different viewpoints is really what do you want people in the end to be able to connect to?

[Andrea Gunning]

The clarity for me is purpose is just doing it intentionally. What is the purpose if one person feels less alone by listening to this? We've done our job because that was the intention going into the project.

[Jennifer Simmons Caleba]

Yeah.

[Andrea Gunning]

Well, thank you for everything that you do and thank you for everything that Rainn does and contributes. And thank you for contributing to betrayal.

[Jennifer Simmons Caleba]

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[Andrea Gunning]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.