← Betrayal Seasons 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
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This is an iHeart podcast.
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Guaranteed Human Amazon Health AI presents painful thoughts I I can't stop scratching my downtown.
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Yeah, but I'm not itching to go downtown and tell a receptionist I'm here to talk about my downtown. Some things you'd rather type than say out loud.
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There's no question too embarrassing for Amazon Health AI. Chat your symptoms and get virtual care 24. 7 Healthcare just got less painful.
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The thing about AI for business, it may not automatically fit the way your business works. At IBM we've seen this firsthand. But by embedding AI across hr, IT and procurement processes, we've reduced costs by millions, slashed repetitive tasks, and freed thousands of hours for strategic work. Now we're helping companies get smarter by
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putting AI where it actually pays off,
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deep in the work that moves the business. Let's create smarter business.
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IBM support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI, it all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory services by Public Advisors LLC SEC Registered Advisor. Generated Assets is an interactive output, is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures available at public.comDisclosures introducing the
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all new Mazda CX5 featuring more connection hey Google, where's the nearest Pilates class Safety that has your back? More discovery on the scenic routes, more passion in the details and more control in changing weather. The all new Mazda CX5 more to move every side of you. See it in five films at mazdausa.com fivesides Google is a trademark of Google LLC. Sequences shortened and simulated hi, it's Andrea and we are re releasing some of our past weekly episodes and there's a good reason why. For the last Year I have been working with ABC on turning some of your favorite episodes of Betrayal Weekly into a TV show. The show is called Secrets and Lies and it airs every Sunday at 10pm on ABC. This week we are re releasing Deb Proctor's story. You may have heard Deb's story before or you may be new to her story. A little bit about Deb. She is an incredible and beautiful spirit. If you talk to her, you know instantly she is just a genuine good person and a good friend, a true advocate. And in my conversations with Deb, sure we talked about her experience of betrayal in life. But what I really wanted to pick her brain about was golf. She's an avid golfer and you hear a little bit about that in the episode. I just started learning so I even sent her videos of my swing. Why does this matter to betrayal? Well, for me, learning something new is to confront and push through failure. It's pushing through discomfort and self criticism. It's celebrating the small wins and it's about showing up. Deb has overcome so much in her life, from addiction to betrayal. And today I hope she is on a golf course somewhere celebrating how far she's come. If you have not heard this story, I won't give any more away. Hearing Deb's story is fascinating, but seeing it unfold is a whole new experience. So please be sure to check out Secrets and Lies on ABC and Hulu to see Deb and where her story takes place. Enjoy the episode.
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It was a profound moment. It's the duality of oh my God. What in the world? Who is this cruel? Who can pull this off? Whose friends pull it off? How do you fabricate the details like that?
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I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, A show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything.
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My real name is Deborah, but typically everyone calls me Deb.
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Deb Proctor grew up on the Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma. She recently retired from her role as the senior director of her tribe's domestic violence program. And before that she spent her entire career as a nurse.
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After being a RN for well, now it's been 48 and a half years.
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Like a lot of people in the medical profession, she developed a keen sense for when someone is lying.
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When you mention bullshit detectors, I can spot them a football field away or further.
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Deb is Cherokee and proud of her Native American heritage.
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My grandmother who lived until she was 99 years old, she is actually our family's original enrollee, which means she is on the Dawes roll.
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The Dawes roll was a list compiled by the US government in the late 1800s and early 1900s. It named about 100,000 Native Americans who
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were allotted land, which was pretty unusual to have an original rolle in your life for most of it.
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Growing up, Deb's grandmother was a constant presence and a source of inspiration.
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I think I got a lot of my proctor will and strength and courage from her. She was born before statehood, and she was still stacking her own wood when she was in her early 90s. She was a survivor of many, many situations in her life.
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Her grandmother experienced a lot of violence firsthand. Deb's father did too. As a child, his own father was murdered in front of him.
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Those life events are what gives the background and the experience to what we would call intergenerational trauma or historical trauma.
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She saw the impact of that on her family. There was alcoholism and emotional turmoil, and when she was young, Deb struggled to process it.
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When you're a very sensitive nature child, your little heart's open and you're intuitive, you pick up that energy.
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From a young age, she experienced violence and abuse herself.
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The violence I experienced, I truly in my heart know that it's as a result of those that could not heal.
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Deb believes her father's unresolved trauma led him to become a civil servant.
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He taught me a lot about community service. He would be in his vehicle, driving through the rural areas, seeing what the natives needed. And ultimately he was a councilman for our tribe. Served many, many years.
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Deb grew up quickly in more ways than one. In fact, on her 16th birthday, her high school boyfriend surprised her.
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They had a birthday party for me and he asked me to marry him. And I accepted. That was the day I turned 16.
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But her engagement didn't distract her from prioritizing education. Her father insisted that she earn an advanced degree.
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He was the one in the family who said, you must have an education. And so at age 17, I did start college and I finished at 19 with my first RN degree. That was as a result of my
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dad pushing me before she even had a chance to know herself. She was married and working as a full time nurse.
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I mean, I'm running the hospital as a baby nurse. I'd probably turn 20, maybe 21 by then. It was tough, but I spent a good part of my energy on trying to achieve perfection.
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Deb and her husband shared a very similar upbringing.
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He came from a violent background, very similar to mine. And so we just went together like peanut butter and jelly.
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They had two sons Together. But a few years into marriage, her husband's behavior became a problem.
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He struggled with drugs and drinking, and he had violent tendencies. It was really hard.
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She eventually left her husband and resolved to end the cycle of violence to make a safe and stable environment for her and her two sons.
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And so for many years, I remained single and just spent time with myself and the boys. And so for the next few years after we divorced, I sought to understand. I bought books, I joined book clubs, anything on self understanding.
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She started going to therapy and joined support groups for families impacted by alcoholism. She was creating a better life for herself and for her sons. When her sons became teenagers, she looked around and realized, I did want a partner in life.
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You know, someone to enjoy life that I meant something to, that I mattered to.
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She was 41 and felt ready to explore a new partnership. So she made an online dating profile. This was 1997, back when online dating was a novel concept.
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Yeah, this ain't bumble. This ain't. Yeah, this is none of that stuff.
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One man piqued her interest. His name was Jeff Walton.
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His profile was just romantic. It was something like, I'm looking for my Guinevere.
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Jeff said he wanted to treat his next partner like a queen. Deb wrote him an email. He lived a couple states away in Kentucky, but their conversation flowed easily, and Deb quickly discovered they shared the same interests. They both loved golf. And Jeff wanted to hear more about Deb's Cherokee culture.
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You know, the music, a spiritual journey. He loved the Native American spiritual practices. And when I talked to him, I was just smitten with him.
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She looked forward to his phone calls and emails.
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I saved all of that. I printed everything. I had a huge 3 inch purple binder with all of our exchanges.
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As they got closer, she got to know more about his backstory.
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He was born in Alaska and moved to Canada.
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He was a dual citizen of Canada and the United States. And he had a complicated relationship with his biological family.
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He didn't know his real dad. His stepdad was very violent. And he would share stories like, you know, his stepdad murdered the family poodle in front of his sister and his mom and him. And, I mean, it was horrible stories.
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Deb had seen her share of violence as well. She understood what it was like. So they bonded over their difficult childhoods. Jeff's family was still in Canada, but they'd fallen out of touch. He moved to New Orleans as a young man, and along the way, he picked up the accent.
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So when he would talk to me on the Phone. He would have that, you know, dialect. He would say, hello, darlin, and yeah, I can't do it. But it was definitely New Orleans.
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Jeff's ex wife and adult son still lived in New Orleans, but after his divorce, he'd taken a job in Kentucky.
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He was a project manager for a big construction company that, you know, worked on Toyota plants, that worked on the University of Kentucky that had done all this great work.
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Jeff was the kind of person who'd lived a million lives in one.
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He just fascinated me. He was a pilot and played football for Woody Hayes at Ohio State and was phenomenal.
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Deb could really see herself with this guy.
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We're gonna embark upon this journey together. We love music, we love golf. We're both seekers. I just was so excited about meeting this man.
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After a year of talking, they decided to finally meet each other in person. Jeff flew to Oklahoma. When he arrived at the airport, she was waiting for him with a gift.
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I'd had a traditional healer, a medicine man, had gone to him and asked him to bead a feather. There was a song by Robbie Robertson, and the name of it was Golden Feather. Give my love a golden feather and if you would look it up it's so that I never lose my way home. And I thought, what a beautiful expression of love for this new man in my life to give him a feather because he loves that Native American song so much. So I met him at the playing with that, and I said, here's so you can always find your way home.
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And Jeff had come with a surprise of his own.
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As soon as he got off the plane and he was walking toward me, it seemed like his voice was shaking. And he said, you will marry me, won't you? You're going to marry me, right? You are marrying me, right?
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That was Jeff's marriage proposal.
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And I was like, well, of course. Of course, yes.
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The weekend could not have gone better. Jeff wanted to get to know her world.
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You know, I drove around, showed him the rural area, my history, some of the culture, where I worked. We went out to my golf course. I introduced him to a lot of my friends, met the family. It was just a really good weekend. I just loved him, just loved him.
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They started making arrangements for him to move to Oklahoma.
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And I'm a planner and an organizer in every aspect of my life. So, shoot. The next thing you know, I'm getting busy. I'm helping him find jobs. He's getting his resume. Of course, we're still using faxes then. And he would send things, and I Would write cover letters for him to help him get relocated.
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A few months later, Jeff moved in. They spent the next year planning a small family wedding in the Ozarks.
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We married on April 23, 2000.
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It was the anniversary of the day they met in person. Deb's youngest son walked her down the aisle. And Jeff's son, little Jeff, flew in to support his dad. It was a true merging of their lives.
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I really thought it was meant to be.
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They planned their first trip together as newlyweds. A golf trip with Deb's group of friends. Deb had been golfing for her entire life. Every year, she and her friends traveled the country to play. Jeff was eager to join. He'd been an avid golfer when he was younger, but he hadn't played in years.
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So he lost his golf clubs. Well, heck, you know, I gotta go buying golf clubs, you know, because he's gotta have golf clubs if we're gonna play. So then he needed lessons. Cause he just hadn't got to play in a while, he said needed to brush up.
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But on their first golf trip with
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her friends, once we got all the scores in and everything, the winner was him. And I was like, well, golly, great job.
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But Deb's friends were standoffish with Jeff about his win. And one of her friends was quick to point out that a real golfer
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is not going to leave their clubs behind. It doesn't make sense.
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Her friends had never acted like this before. She didn't know what happened, and neither did Jeff. But after that, they weren't invited on any more golf trips.
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I felt like everybody was mistreating him.
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A year into their marriage, Jeff was still struggling to find the right job in Oklahoma. One day, when Deb was helping him with an application, well, I found an
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old resume, and on this particular resume, it says vietnam veteran. I was like, my God.
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He'd never told her he was a veteran. But Deb had a lot of experience with the va. While getting her advanced nursing degree, she worked on a program at the VA that specifically studied Vietnam veterans with ptsd.
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I'm like, you never told me you were a veteran. You never told me you were in the Vietnam war. That is a significant event in life. I was flabbergasted. It had never come up. And he said, well, I don't like to talk about it, Deb. I use it on my resumes because, you know, that ought to tell you something. I was like, but you should have told me. I should never have found out here.
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Deb felt like he needed to talk about it, even if he didn't want to. She'd had firsthand experience with veterans and ptsd.
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And so over the course of time he began to tell me what happened. It was an elaborate story, intricate details.
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As an 18 year old, he'd been in the Special Forces in Vietnam. One night he caught his senior officers using drugs. Fearing he would turn them in, the officers allowed Jeff to be captured. He was held as a prisoner of war and for months he was tortured.
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And they busted his feet with the butt of a gun so that he couldn't walk. But he got out. Heaney escaped and he made it back to the US forces by following the path of a stream. And it was so difficult because his feet were busted up.
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He was taken to a veterans hospital.
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He had to have metal put in his feet because they were broken and if we flew anywhere, it would trigger the metal alarm as you go in.
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He recovered physically and was discharged, but psychologically he was scarred.
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The trauma was so bad, he said, it was just so awful that sometimes he would just get in a closet and he would just hide.
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Deb was worried about his mental health, especially because his support system was thin. He was in a new place place and wasn't in touch with his biological family. So Deb was happy when his siblings reached out to reconnect. They invited him back to Canada.
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His siblings had said that his mother's 80th birthday party was coming up and they wanted him to come. And he talked to him about it and I said, well, we've got to. I've never met any of your family. And absolutely.
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A few months later, they flew to Alberta to meet his family. They hadn't seen Jeff in decades. They were elated to welcome him home. And Deb never thought she'd get the chance to meet his siblings.
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I finally got to meet his family. I was just so excited to be there and to meet them and, you know, at one of the brothers houses, we might play games and just chat and get to know each other.
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Deb fit right in.
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We didn't have any serious meaningful conversations about life or anything. We were just doing a friendly, cordial, meet the family thing. He was upbeat, everyone was upbeat. It was a good trip.
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It was a good trip. Nothing seemed out of the ordinary. Deb didn't know it at the time, but everyone there was in on a secret. Everyone except for her. Her husband Jeff wasn't who he said he was. In fact, everyone in his family knew Jeff by a different name.
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Come to find out. He met his siblings at the door and told him I'm going by Jeff Walton now. I'll tell you.
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Foreign
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I care because I know what it's
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like to not speak the language. It's not easy. Health insurance is complicated. I would say our job is to make everything easy for our UHC members.
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I work for United Healthcare. I'm committed to care.
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Your first sip should do more than simply start the day. Choose Vital Proteins Marine collagen peptides sourced from wild caught code with collagen peptides to help Support healthy hair, skin, nails, bones, and joints. It's a simple way to add daily support to what you're already enjoying, so your upgraded routine supports you right back. Vital proteins stay vital. Visit vitalproteins.com to get started. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. Deb and her husband went to Canada to reconnect with his estranged family. And to her surprise, the trip was a success. Meeting his family brought the two of them closer. But one day after they returned from their trip, Jeff collapsed on the golf course.
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And a friend of ours found him setting up against a tree and wanted him to let him take him into the hospital. And he said, no, just take me to my car. And so he did that. He got in his car and he drove home.
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Deb met him at their house and forced him to go to the hospital. Jeff had suffered a major heart attack. It would require ongoing care, but Jeff still hadn't nailed down a steady job, so the couple needed help covering his medical expenses. Deb had worked at the VA years ago and insisted it was their best resource.
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And he absolutely, I will not go. I don't trust the government. I'm not going. And I said, well, that's bullshit. We're going broke. We've got to get your health care.
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That's when Jeff explained the VA wouldn't take him.
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He said, they don't even have a list of me because I was dishonorably discharged because I reported the officers. They won't even have me on the, well, anything to do with va. And I said, that's bullshit. You were a soldier. You were captured. And he said, I won't go. He got up and he never talked about it again. In that moment, I was like, that is weird.
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His explanation just didn't add up. Deb even considered hiring someone to look into Jeff's background.
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I wonder if I need to get a private investigator or something. And I logged on to the Internet. And then I was like, God, I don't have any money to get a private detective.
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She didn't have the money or the time to hire a PI. Shortly after Jeff's heart attack, he had a stroke. Then his memory began to falter. All the while, he was refusing to go to the va. It financially strained the family, and Deb was at a loss.
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I had begun to say, I do not know what is wrong with my life. How am I going to get this guy health care? He's got to have health care.
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Deb was his primary caretaker on top of her full time nursing job. It was overwhelming.
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I began to drink and then I drank heavily and then it was uncontrollably.
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Alcohol became an escape from her marriage and its problems.
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When I started drinking, I didn't have to be confused anymore because my brain was numb.
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Deb had spent so many years taking care of other people that she neglected
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herself as the person that was going to al Anon from the mid-80s, taking family, taking coworkers, taking friends to AA N A rehab. I was taking everybody to get help but myself had, I guess, reached just a hard stop where I couldn't deal with it.
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Deb had just turned 50 and had been with Jeff for a decade. But life with him was becoming harder year after year. At first he failed to bring in a steady income. Then when he became sick, he refused resources for affordable health care. Deb turned to booze for the stress. But one day, after a long night of drinking, she found herself too shaky to put the golf ball on the tee. She checked herself into a 30 day rehab.
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Best move I ever made. I'm not going to tell you it was pretty, it was ugly. But there's always been a driving force within me to rise above.
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Being alone in rehab gave her a lot of clarity. And with that clarity came questions specifically about Jeff. When she left rehab, she looked at Jeff's behavior with a new set of eyes.
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I began to really observe. He was strange. Something was not right. Not right.
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She wasn't ready to leave the marriage. Her focus was on her new sobriety. But she did come up with a plan to get some answers out of Jeff. She gave him an assignment.
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And I began to say to him, jeff, every day while I'm at work, I want you to work on your life struggle. Because I don't understand it. You told me you were born in Alaska and you moved to Canada, but I don't know where you even went to school. I don't even know when you moved to Canada. If something happens, I'm going to be honest with you. I can't even write an obituary.
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She thought it would be a good exercise for both of them and she hoped it could help her understand why. Why he was the way he was.
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And so every day I would come home and I would go, well, share your story with me. Well, I couldn't work on it today.
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After his stroke, Jeff's memory was worse than ever.
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He began to claim that he just didn't have much of a memory. But the neurologist at the time of his stroke had already advised me that the stroke was not going to impact his memory. Then he wanted me to get him checked for possible early dementia.
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He needed more care than she could provide at home. So she applied for him to be in a funded outpatient care facility, and he was accepted.
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It's a wonderful program that where you stay in your home, but they basically have a center that's open during the day and there's activities and transportation. There's clinic on site, everything that you could need. And if you need something outside, they'll take you.
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He started going to the center every day.
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That was until the program called me and they said, have you talked to Jeff? Because nobody can find him. He's gone.
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Deb was at work. She didn't know where he was. With his memory issues, she worried he could have gotten lost. So they called the police.
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Come to find out he had left the group and the care team to go to the bank.
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When Deb got there, Jeff seemed confused about what was happening. The whole situation confirmed that he really needed this facility. His memory must be worse than she thought. But shortly after Jeff's incident at the bank, Deb received another phone call. Only this one would change her life forever.
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It was a number I didn't recognizing. I typically didn't pick those up in my office.
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It was an international call. But Deb had a strange feeling when she picked up. There was a police officer on the other line.
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And I was like, what is this about?
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The officer was Canadian and he was investigating a cold case from 30 years ago.
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That's when he began to say that they were looking for Ron Stan and they had believe that they've tracked him down through social media.
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But Deb didn't know a Ron Stan. The officer continued explaining that Canadian police had been looking for a man named Ron stan for over 30 years. He disappeared during a fire.
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There was a fire in his barn at night, and initially he was presumed to have been in that fire. And he had left a wife, an infant, and another child.
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Deb's blood ran cold. She knew what the officer was about to say before he said it. The man she was married to, who she knew as Jeff Walton, was actually
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the complete fraud he was. Ron Stan, who was this missing person?
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Here's the thing about Ron Stan. He was originally declared dead, but in reality, he'd been on the run ever since that barn fire.
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Support for the show comes from public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously on public. You can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like etc ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures available at public.comDisclosures Life's Better
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Pricing and availability vary based on where you purchase insurance and by state. Some exclusions apply. American Family Mutual Insurance Company SI and its operating companies 6000American Parkway, Madison, Wisconsin
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My name is Jessa.
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One of the things I love the most about working for UnitedHealthcare is that everybody matters. Every moment matters. There's a person behind every problem.
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B
I care because it's what I was put on this earth to do.
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C
I'm Ben and I work at UnitedHealthcare. I am just one piece of a larger puzzle, but every piece matters. It's more than just work. We want to make the healthcare system better for everyone. I care because I want to make a difference. That's what Committed to Care means to me.
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A
Wellness looks different at every stage. The right support makes all the difference. Shake up your routine with vital proteins Collagen peptides with 20 grams of collagen sourced from grass fed pasture raised bovine, it helps support healthy hair, skin, nails, bones and joints. Made with no artificial sweeteners, it's a clean way to fuel your body so your wellness stays effortless wherever the day takes you. Vital proteins stay vital. Visit vitalproteins.com to get started. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. 11 years into her marriage, Deb Proctor got a phone call out of the blue from a Canadian police officer. They were looking for Ron Stan, a Canadian man who'd been missing and later declared dead after an arson feature in 1977. And they believed they'd found him in the United States. He was hiding out in a rural part of the Cherokee Nation, using the name Jeff Walton. When the police explained this to Deb,
- [36:50]
B
initially I thought it was perhaps just a cruel joke.
- [36:56]
A
So she asked the officer for proof, for details.
- [37:00]
B
The more I pushed for dates, times, names, locations, the more I realized, oh, ugh.
- [37:11]
A
She didn't say much on the phone. She just listened, writing down everything the police told her, every detail.
- [37:18]
B
Dates, times, information. I still have that notepad.
- [37:24]
A
Canadian officials wanted to speak to Jeff or Ron directly. Deb explained that he was in a care facility during the day because of his memory problems. She confirmed their home address, thanked the officer, and hung up the phone in disbelief.
- [37:40]
B
I was sitting there when there was a nurse that looked at me from office door, and she said, are you okay? I remember saying, I don't know. I've just had the most bizarre phone call. So I went to talk to my director of nursing, and she said, get out of here. What in the world?
- [37:58]
A
She debated whether this phone call was real, if the person on the phone was even a police officer. A co worker who was afraid for Deb suggested another possibility.
- [38:10]
B
He probably is in witness protection, and you just blew it, so you're probably not safe, nor is he. And they said, we'll go with you to the Cherokee Nation marshals and we will get to the bottom of this.
- [38:27]
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So Deb went straight there. She wanted to know if the call she'd received was real or if Jeff could be in witness protection. An investigator took Deb's concerns seriously and started making calls.
- [38:40]
B
I gave her the cell number, the badge number, and everything from the officer that called. And she did call, and she confirmed every last detail.
- [38:51]
A
She verified that Jeff Walton didn't exist. Her husband of 11 years was a missing person, a man named Ronald Stan, who'd faked his death in an arson fire and had been on the run for 30 years.
- [39:06]
B
I was just heart sick, gut sick, heart sick. My whole body responded, and all I could think of was, who are you? How could you do this?
- [39:20]
A
When Ronald Stan disappeared from his farm in rural Ontario. In 1977, he abandoned his wife and two young sons in order to escape. He had lit his barn on fire, killing all the animals. His family watched the blaze, helpless, fearing that Ron was trapped inside that poor
- [39:40]
B
wife and those two sons that he walked away from in this barn fire in the middle of the night. What horror, what pain, what trauma that they must have endured, thinking that they were watching him burn up in front of their eyes.
- [39:59]
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Why he'd faked his death, Deb wouldn't find out until much later. In that moment, she just knew she couldn't go home, not to the house she shared with him. He was a criminal, a fraud, a total stranger. So the Cherokee marshals helped her come up with an immediate plan.
- [40:21]
B
Go to an attorney, go the bank and get protection. So that's what an did.
- [40:28]
A
She made an appointment with a divorce attorney for the following day, and a friend offered to let Deb stay at her place while she figured out her next move.
- [40:37]
B
I just was in a state of robot, just trying to put one foot in front of the other and then formulate a plan on how to tell the family.
- [40:50]
A
She met with her sons to break the news, and with all of their support, she called Jep's son, the one who he'd had in America after he went on the run. After all, he was the only child Deb knew about.
- [41:04]
B
I loved that boy. He was my son, too, you know, he was a third son, so my heart hurt for him, just like it did for my boys to tell him.
- [41:15]
A
Everyone in the family called him little Jeff. He was named after his father, or rather his father's alias.
- [41:23]
B
And his response was, you know, silent initially, as you can imagine, and then just struggling. We both needed some time to just deal.
- [41:35]
A
The one person she didn't want to speak with was Jeff.
- [41:39]
B
I really did not have any communication with him whatsoever. I just had nothing to say.
- [41:48]
A
When the authorities finally got ahold of Jeff, they questioned him and asked to see his proof of identity.
- [41:54]
B
He admitted to everything.
- [41:56]
A
In fact, he seemed amused. He made a joke to police officers, asking what took them so long because the arson had happened so long ago. The statute of limitations had expired in Canada, and authorities in the US Couldn't charge him either.
- [42:14]
B
There was no charges to be made here. You know, he's a scam, but there's no charges that I could file.
- [42:22]
A
The only legal action Deb could take was filing for divorce.
- [42:26]
B
The domestic violence service of the tribe helped me and just took the papers. And when they served in the Papers. He just signed it. He didn't even question it.
- [42:39]
A
The news caught wind of the story and it was a media frenzy.
- [42:43]
B
Media showed up. Some Canada, some Oklahoma, some the uk. I just didn't have any peace. I could rarely go home. My phone rang constantly. I was just completely overwhelmed.
- [42:56]
A
Deb's niece drafted a statement to send to the press on her behalf. And Deb kept tabs on the news. That's how she learned Jeff's real life story, the one he claimed he couldn't remember. A journalist with the Toronto Star had been reporting on it. Through their investigation, they uncovered a possible motivation for why he faked his death.
- [43:18]
B
Evidently, he was messing with young college girls and he was getting ready to get in trouble.
- [43:25]
A
At the time of the arson, Ron was working at a college in Canada. He was having a relationship with a local girl who was much younger. The day he went missing, it seemed this information was about to be revealed. It's not clear how old the girl was, but the threat of being discovered prompted him to go on the run for three decades. Deb also learned how he pulled it off.
- [43:49]
B
When he left Canada in the fire and came to New Orleans, he said, I've got to find a woman with money.
- [43:57]
A
He did. In fact, he had two other marriages he'd never told Deb about. And after he found a woman with money, he needed papers to validate his his new identity.
- [44:08]
B
He got a Social Security from somebody that had died in the 70s, a girl. So he took over her Social Security.
- [44:17]
A
He used his stolen identity to find work and even collect Social Security benefits.
- [44:23]
B
That's how he worked in the decades that he came to the United States. He used this Social Security and false name. I don't know how anybody pulls this off. It's so elaborate.
- [44:37]
A
When the story broke, Jeff himself spoke to the media about how and why he faked his death. And he seemed to revel in it.
- [44:44]
B
He sought that attention. He wanted to be a star.
- [44:49]
A
He said he chose the name Jeff because it was the name of his infant son he abandoned in Canada. And the last name Walton was inspired by the TV show the Waltons. It sounded like a classic American last name. As for the documents he used to marry Deb, they appeared to be forged.
- [45:09]
B
I had seen his birth certificate and I still have it. But when you look, there are things that have been changed, like the arson.
- [45:22]
A
Too much time had passed for him to be charged in the US with identity fraud. And what about his elaborate stories, like being a prisoner of war in Vietnam?
- [45:32]
B
It's all made Up.
- [45:34]
A
That's why he was so resistant to using the va. He never fought in the Vietnam War. He wasn't even an American citizen. The POW story, well, he ripped those details straight out of a movie called Platoon, starring Charlie Sheen and his football career at Ohio State State with Woody Hayes.
- [45:54]
B
There was never anybody that played football for Woody Hayes by his name, ever.
- [46:02]
A
Deb was left wondering if anything he'd ever told her was true. Today she doubts if he'd even swung a golf club before she met him. After all his lies were exposed, one of Deb's friends finally came clean about something. Remember the golf trip where Deb's friends iced them out? Well, back then, the group had discovered
- [46:23]
B
that he cheated all day. He never counts his strokes, and when he was out of bounds, he never counted it.
- [46:31]
A
He cheated and basically stole a pot of money from Deb's friends. That's why they were never invited to play with the group again. Even his memory issues were a lie. When he talked to the press after the fact that he seemed to remember every detail just fine. So what was really going on that day? When he went missing from the facility and was found at the bank, Deb suspects he was planning an escape. She also wonders if he targeted her because she lives in a rural part of the Cherokee Nation.
- [47:05]
B
It's very possible because look, this is rural. This is a dead end road. Maybe he did think that, hey, I can get out in the woods in rural Oklahoma and continue to hide.
- [47:18]
A
One of the most baffling aspects of his deception is that visit to Canada a few years into their marriage. Back then, the reunion seemed completely normal. But behind the scenes, Jeff had asked all of his family members to use his new name instead of calling him Ron. They said they were so happy to see him again that they obliged.
- [47:40]
B
They did it because they'd lost him once and they didn't want to lose him again. I think they were just so happy to have him back in their lives.
- [47:50]
A
There's clearly so much more to his family dynamics than she'll ever know. It still doesn't sit right with her.
- [47:57]
B
What makes it okay that you support this kind of deception?
- [48:02]
A
In the beginning, she didn't even know how to refer to him, what name to call him by, whether to call him Ron or Jeff.
- [48:10]
B
But I had a really dear friend. She nicknamed him Ref. And so for a while, when I referred to him, it was Ref. But now I usually just say Jeff.
- [48:21]
A
In the weeks after his double life was revealed, Deb was emotionally destroyed. It all happened in her first year of sobriety, Jeff moved back to New Orleans with his son and Deb was left alone in the house they shared.
- [48:36]
B
I just remember it was a profound moment. It's the duality of, oh, my God, what in the world? Along with, you have to live, you have to deal with this and go on. And I remember just laying in the floor, just face down and just sobbing and saying, my God, how does another human do this to a human in the guise of love?
- [49:11]
A
In that moment, she couldn't get up. It felt like her world had ended.
- [49:17]
B
I just had so much pain and confusion. I got on my knees, I leaned into a chair and I just kept praying and asking for help and just, if you can get me on my feet, I will go forward. I will keep my sobriety. I promise. I promise. I made a commitment to live life, to help others, to be the best person I can, to be loving, kind. I mean, those were the things I'd always been. But I was not going to let this make me harsh and hateful.
- [49:52]
A
In the throes of despair, she gained vivid clarity.
- [49:57]
B
You know, we often talk of spiritual awakenings. I feel like I've had a few in my life, but that was profound, profound. And when I stood up, you know, I was still crying, but I wasn't suffering as much. I didn't feel the pain as deep at the betrayal or shock. And I knew that when I stood up that it was something greater than me. It said, get up, you got work to do. Go on.
- [50:31]
A
She got up that day and she's stayed on her feet ever since.
- [50:35]
B
I made a commitment to do that in that moment, and I've never turned back and I've never tried to rewrite the story. And I don't want to live in bitterness. I still wanted to be open hearted and help others. And that's what set the tone for the years to where we are today.
- [50:57]
A
She's now 11 years sober.
- [51:00]
B
I maintain sobriety. I was dedicated to my meetings and I was dedicated to the spiritual journey and dealing with my loss and grief and shock.
- [51:16]
A
She took on a leadership role in her tribe as director of a program providing resources and support to victims of domestic violence.
- [51:25]
B
I would say you still gotta stay working on your emotional health because it's a tough service. What I know for sure is that we can't help others adequately or appropriately if we haven't began our own work to heal. I feel like I'm more effective in these last years because of all the work I've done.
- [51:54]
A
In 2019, she got a call from Jeff's son. Jeff had passed away.
- [51:59]
B
It was a sense of relief, but also all the emotions that flood into that moment. You just have to hold on.
- [52:09]
A
In the last few years her life has taken an unexpected turn.
- [52:13]
B
I just recently married on September 7th and I never saw it coming. Both of us are nevers and it was the most beautiful wedding outdoors overlooking the lake. It was just beautiful, romantic, just wonderful.
- [52:31]
A
After all, she did make a commitment to being open hearted. Her new husband meets her at her level and he's put in the work too.
- [52:41]
B
He is also sober him 40 something years. Both of us love golf, Both of us love music. It's just a blessing for us both. We feel so grateful. It was too bad we're meeting each other at 70 and 67, but here we are.
- [53:01]
A
We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question. Why did you want to share your story?
- [53:07]
B
If my story could help others identify lies from their partner earlier, that's one part. The real part is we can heal and we can have a good life and we can live well. The trauma and the pain and the suffering and the sorrow. We have the potential to just be an amazing human on the other side. Leave your heart open. Love others, help others. Learn boundaries. Set limits.
- [53:47]
A
On the next episode of Betrayal. My mom was the first one to be like, does this seem off at all to you? It was really the first time someone like said something that made me think, what do you mean off? Like, I had never considered doubting it. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team or want to tell us your Betrayal story, email us@betrayalpodmail.com that's betrayal. Pete, we're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Federman. Associate producers are Kristin Melchiori and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krynczyk. Audio editing and mixing by Matt d'. Alvecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines Music Library, provided by My Music and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Life's better with American Family Insurance because we know you love working weekends if it means working on your dream home both inside and out. And we're here to help protect the those dreams so you can enjoy peace of mind. Save up to 40% when you bundle home and auto American Family Insurance Get a quote and find an agent@amfam.com Products
- [55:45]
C
pricing and availability vary based on where you purchase insurance and by state. Some exclusions apply. American Family Mutual Insurance Company S.I. and its operating company, 6000American Parkway, Madison, Wisconsin.
- [55:53]
A
You're listening to a podcast, so you're doing something else too. Like maybe scrolling home listings on Redfin, saving places you like without thinking you'll get them. Because that's what house hunting has become. But Redfin isn't built for endless browsing. It's built to help you find and own a home. Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents, which means when you find a place you love, you've got a real shot at getting it. Redfin helps turn saved listings into real addresses. Get started@redfin.com own the dream on this episode of Plant Killers, we'll explore one nation's most notorious fruit and vegetable killer. Bad Dirt. What makes bad dirt so bad? The answer? The ingredients. But fear not, true crime enthusiasts, this story has a happy ending. Miracle Gro Organic raised bed and garden soil. It's made with quality organic ingredients from upcycled green waste like compost and aged bark. Unlike the other guys who can't say the same. Looks like Bad Dirt's machine murdering days are over, thanks to Miracle Gro. Join us next time on Plant Killers.
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C
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- [57:29]
A
This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.